Honda could have two new drivers in 2009

[CNR]

http://www.duemotori.com/news/f1/27176_Honda_could_have_two_new_drivers_in_2009.php


Neither current race driver is guaranteed his Honda (http://www.duemotori.com/brands/en/honda/) Seat (http://www.duemotori.com/brands/en/seat/) beyond this season, team boss Nick Fry has warned.

With both Jenson Button and Rubens Barrichello's contracts expiring at the end of the year, Fry points out that the Brackley based outfit is an increasingly attractive proposition amongst other talented drivers on the market.


Another second Honda team? (http://www.grandprix.com/ns/ns20469.html)

[Valve Bounce]

Wouldn't it be funny if the two ex-Aguri drivers ended up being the drivers in the works team. Lets face it, they couldn't do any worse than the present buggers are doing this year.

[52Paddy]

It would be a shame for Barrichello to be 'thrown out' after all these years though. Then again, maybe he should have quit sooner anyway. At least he beat Patrese's record starts :p :

[maxu05]

Wouldn't it be funny if the two ex-Aguri drivers ended up being the drivers in the works team. Lets face it, they couldn't do any worse than the present buggers are doing this year.

Here, here. I think they deserve a break, and perhaps they would do a better job as well.

[Valve Bounce]

Here, here. I think they deserve a break, and perhaps they would do a better job as well.

Well, they were doing a better job last year until Team Honda sabotaged their effort.

[ioan]

Well, they were doing a better job last year until Team Honda sabotaged their effort.

And that is why they got left without support this year, otherwise how do you explain that they gave up on team B with all the testing restrictions in place?!
Sure they could have tested twice as more as any other team for a fraction of the cost they pay for their A team.

Nick Fry's ego simply wasn't able to take the blows anymore!

[Roamy]

probably brawn knows that neither of them know anything about car development. So you always have the tiger chasing the tail

[Nikki Katz]

I don't think there's anything really wrong with their current lineup. The drivers aren't the reason that the team doesn't have many points again this year. Ok, Barrichello's a bit over the hill now, but compared to some of the possible replacements he's certainly preferable. If Button gets dropped for Sato I'd be seriously annoyed.
I'm just trying to think who's out of a contract at the end of the year that would see Honda as a good move. Other than Sato and Davidson, erm, Sutil? Or Wurz, Klien or (aaargh) Fillippi. Surely they're better off as they are.

[gloomyDAY]

Nick Fry is bluffing!

Who the hell would want to join Honda?

[inimitablestoo]

Mark my words, it'll be Alonso and Danica there next year. Alonso'll think he's in for an easy ride (no, not like that) but she'll end up beating him off (no, not like that either). It would be interesting to see who came out on top (look, if you're going to keep on like this, I'm going...)

[gloomyDAY]

Mark my words, it'll be Alonso and Danica there next year. Alonso'll think he's in for an easy ride (no, not like that) but she'll end up beating him off (no, not like that either). It would be interesting to see who came out on top (look, if you're going to keep on like this, I'm going...) :rotflmao:

[MJW]

Alonso and Davidson? Ross is very talented guy, maybe he has seen through Jenson's hype based career.

[jens]

I find it hard to believe that they are going to replace both of their drivers. Especially I would be surprised to see Button leaving. It has seemed that Honda has been satisfied with Jenson for several years by now and Jense himself seems committed to the team no matter what difficulties he has been forced to experience. There were rumours about a new 3-year-deal with Button IIRC. I guess Fry is simply trying to put some pressure on the drivers and motivate them to start performing, because even if there is a long queue of those, who want to join Honda, I really don't quite imagine any true so-called top stars among them. And even the most talented up-and-coming drivers (Grosjean, Hülkenberg) are tied with other teams. But I would't mind seeing Asmer (sounds probably as wishful thinking! Maybe BMW can loan him or smth :p :) or Parente (I don't know whether he is part of anyone's driver development programme, but I have started to rate him quite highly - an average guy can't win a GP2 race on his debut!) having a shot next year - why not at Honda?! :D

[Roamy]

i would say ross brawn knows who can develop a car and who can't and I think that is probably right where he is at. The had one good year in a JV developed car. Yes alll you guys who laughed can now see the truth. Honda need a developer and a winnner something they don't have. That is a hard talent to find and as much as I don't care much for Ms he could develop a car. He was faster than Damon and just as good if not better at development. Matter of fact I probably rate Alonso right up there too which also shows everyone what a idiot Dennis is. School is still out on Kubica but he is blowing away heidfield and heidfield can't drive his car.

[Valve Bounce]

Maybe they could hire Lewis Hamilton.

[ShiftingGears]

Wouldn't it be funny if the two ex-Aguri drivers ended up being the drivers in the works team. Lets face it, they couldn't do any worse than the present buggers are doing this year.

They would be slower.

[Valve Bounce]

They would be slower.

You don't think Honda would nobble their own cars, do you?

[ShiftingGears]

You don't think Honda would nobble their own cars, do you?

Not by putting slower drivers in them, no ;)

[Valve Bounce]

Not by putting slower drivers in them, no ;)

Or not letting them use the wings they tested?

[ShiftingGears]

Or not letting them use the wings they tested?

Don't be ridiculous.

[Valve Bounce]

Don't be ridiculous.

You seem to forget that Super Aguri was the Honda B team, driven by contracted Honda drivers. They nobbled that team be because their drivers were doing better than the official Honda Works team.

[ShiftingGears]

They nobbled that team be because their drivers were doing better than the official Honda Works team.

The '06 Honda chassis was clearly better than their '07 one, and it made no sense for Honda to pour their money and resources into a parasite team that did not actually design its own parts. On top of that, despite its promising results on the relative shoestring, they didn't manage to draw any sponsors from it.

To be frank, Super Aguri were not a viable team, and Sato, as spectacular as his passing move on a crippled Alonso was, is ordinary. And Davidson didn't live up to the forum hype, either.

[Valve Bounce]

Again, you seem to forget that Honda "founded" the Super Aguri Team so that Sato would get a drive. Also, the the #1 boss of Honda in Japan stated that he would reward the loyalty and dedication of ant by gifting him an F1 drive with Super Aguri.

That Honda turned on Super Aguri, for whatever purposes, is a matter of record.

I suppose if Super Aguri was not making Team Honda look hopeless, they would still be racing today.

[ShiftingGears]

I suppose if Super Aguri was not making Team Honda look hopeless, they would still be racing today.

I did not forget, I just did not mention it because I was responding to your claims, which are pretty wishful.

Ant got a ride for a year and if he was good enough, other teams would be vying for his services. They are not.

Also, perhaps. Might've been one of few things where Honda thought they should pull their own act together and stop funding teams which were leeching off their R & D work, and other resources.

They realised at some point through 2007 that it wasnt much good funding two teams that got approximately no points, when they could concentrate their efforts and resources and try to get results.

[Valve Bounce]

Ant got a ride for a year and if he was good enough, other teams would be vying for his services. They are not.

.

What?? half way through this season? You've gotta be kidding. He was lucky enough to get a day's testing when Wurz competed at Le Mans. By the end of this year, there will be even more F1 drivers looking for a job.

Unfortunately, I do not believe (I think that is the correct term) that ant has ever been interested in being a pay driver; some others come with either engines (like Naka) or a lot of sponsorship, or a lot of cash. Ant doesn't.

I'm not going to go along this path anymore now as there are many here who simply relish the fact that ant hasn't got a drive. We even have one guy who has a mysterious imaginary journo pal who claims that ant is arrogant.

What's the point in arguing down a dead end?

[aryan]

Sack them all. Fry, Button, the lap dog, the aerodynamists, the lot of them.

Give Brawn a clean sheet to build a team the way he likes. Give him 5 years.

How many years has Honda wated in F1 now?

[Garry Walker]

And that is why they got left without support this year, otherwise how do you explain that they gave up on team B with all the testing restrictions in place?!

Because it was costing too much money and SA was unable to secure any funding for their own, which they were supposed to do by last year already.
Honda did the right thing financially to get rid of that dump. How long should that charity-charade have gone on.



Alonso and Davidson? Ross is very talented guy, maybe he has seen through Jenson's hype based career.
:rotflmao:
Davidson has shown nothing at all in F1, except for doing a few fast times as a friday tester with new tyres and new engines, and Ross Brawn would have to be RETARDED to swap either Barrichello or Button for him. If he was all so great as some here hype him up to be, he would have destroyed Sato, but he struggled to even match him. Alonso is a different matter and both Honda and Alonso would have a lot to gain from a relationship starting from 2009.


We even have one guy who has a mysterious imaginary journo pal who claims that ant is arrogant.

:rolleyes:

[wedge]

I'm not going to go along this path anymore now as there are many here who simply relish the fact that ant hasn't got a drive. We even have one guy who has a mysterious imaginary journo pal who claims that ant is arrogant.

"I want to be in F1/I deserve to be in F1"

I find that arrogant and annoying these days.

I rather see other drivers be given a shot.

[Valve Bounce]

"I want to be in F1/I deserve to be in F1"

I find that arrogant and annoying these days.

I rather see other drivers be given a shot.

Go for it!! If you hurry, you might get to replace DC!!

[Valve Bounce]

"I want to be in F1/I deserve to be in F1"

I find that arrogant and annoying these days.

I rather see other drivers be given a shot.

LINK PLEASE!!

[gloomyDAY]

LINK PLEASE!!
http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/68269

Why are the titles on these articles exaggerated? I don't think Davidson deserves a seat in F1, but he certainly never came off as someone who was arrogant. The chap was always candid and straightforward. :s mokin:

[Valve Bounce]

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/68269

Why are the titles on these articles exaggerated? I don't think Davidson deserves a seat in F1, but he certainly never came off as someone who was arrogant. The chap was always candid and straightforward. :s mokin:

I read that article before I asked for a link. Thre is nothing in that article which says, and i quote"I deserve to be in F1"

I don't detect anything arrogant in that article.

And let's not quote another mysterious imaginary journo who, like Garry's friend, cannot be named.

[Hawkmoon]

If Michael Schumacher trusted Barrichello's input into car development, and I believe he did, then you can bet that Ross Brawn does too. If Barrichello loses his race drive with Honda it won't be because he isn't giving valuable input into car development. I think it'll be more of a commercial decsion based on Honda's desire for a young driver who goes well with their eco-friendly message. A tree-hugging hippy environmentalist Barrichello is not! :D

As for Button, I think his seat is safe unless Alonso decides Renault aren't the place for him. If this oft-rumored Alonso-Ferrari contract turns out to be true then will Honda want Alonso for 1 season only?

I think Honda's '09 lineup wil be Button and some quick young kid with the likes of Wurz and Barrichello doing the development work behind the scenes.

[Valve Bounce]

If Michael Schumacher trusted Barrichello's input into car development, and I believe he did, then you can bet that Ross Brawn does too. If Barrichello loses his race drive with Honda it won't be because he isn't giving valuable input into car development. I think it'll be more of a commercial decsion based on Honda's desire for a young driver who goes well with their eco-friendly message. A tree-hugging hippy environmentalist Barrichello is not! :D

As for Button, I think his seat is safe unless Alonso decides Renault aren't the place for him. If this oft-rumored Alonso-Ferrari contract turns out to be true then will Honda want Alonso for 1 season only?

I think Honda's '09 lineup wil be Button and some quick young kid with the likes of Wurz and Barrichello doing the development work behind the scenes.

I find your logic, reasoning, and hints very difficult to follow. I need to understand so I can improve my block and block interactions at Sudoku. Who is this young tree hugging hippy? Sounds like a hidden subset. I also find the thought of Fernando wanting to join Honda hard to swallow. He is definitely not a sole candidate.

[Hawkmoon]

I find your logic, reasoning, and hints very difficult to follow. I need to understand so I can improve my block and block interactions at Sudoku. Who is this young tree hugging hippy? Sounds like a hidden subset. I also find the thought of Fernando wanting to join Honda hard to swallow. He is definitely not a sole candidate.

I didn't say Alonso wants to join Honda, only that he's the only driver likely to be available that would unseat Button. The fact that it would probably only be for 1 season even if Alonso wanted the drive may deter Honda. Hence why I said I think Button stays.

As for Barrichello, I was trying to say that I think Barrichello will leave for marketing reasons and not for technical ones. Honda may decide to put a young driver in the other Honda to help promote their "green" message. As it's quite fashionable to be "green" these days I figure a young driver better fits that role than a rapidly-approaching-middle-age Barrichello.

See, not that hard to follow. ;)

[ioan]

If Barrichello loses his race drive with Honda it won't be because he isn't giving valuable input into car development. I think it'll be more of a commercial decsion based on Honda's desire for a young driver who goes well with their eco-friendly message. A tree-hugging hippy environmentalist Barrichello is not! :D

None of them is a tree hugger hippy, after all they are having an ecologically detrimental activity.


As for Button, I think his seat is safe unless Alonso decides Renault aren't the place for him.

And this is what puzzles me because it's like he wasn't even competing, he isn't showing anything to justify his stay in F1.

[Valve Bounce]

I didn't say Alonso wants to join Honda, only that he's the only driver likely to be available that would unseat Button. The fact that it would probably only be for 1 season even if Alonso wanted the drive may deter Honda. Hence why I said I think Button stays.

As for Barrichello, I was trying to say that I think Barrichello will leave for marketing reasons and not for technical ones. Honda may decide to put a young driver in the other Honda to help promote their "green" message. As it's quite fashionable to be "green" these days I figure a young driver better fits that role than a rapidly-approaching-middle-age Barrichello.

See, not that hard to follow. ;)

In other words, what you are saying is that, basically, nobody is available to unseat Bunsen. I am not surprised since none of the capable drivers would want to race for Honda given their current ability.

The only tree hugging hippy that would threaten Rubens seat is wacked out at Nimbin; that's why he's green. So that is highly unlikely, as he's probably lost his licence anyway.

ioan, the reason bunsen's seat is safe is because the Honda hierarchy believe he is the "golden boy", re-incarnated from some Tibetan monk, who is going to win them the WDC and the WCC. :p :

[Hawkmoon]

In other words, what you are saying is that, basically, nobody is available to unseat Bunsen. I am not surprised since none of the capable drivers would want to race for Honda given their current ability.

That's pretty much it.

Honda aren't going to replace Button unless somebody who is clearly better becomes available. Based on recent results the only drivers who are clearly better are Raikkonen, Massa, Hamilton, Alonso and Kubica. Of those the only one who even has a remote possibility of being a free agent for '09 is Alonso. Hence my claim that Alonso is the only driver out there who could unseat the Brit.

Now Alonso would have to be off his f-ing rocker to join Honda at the moment so I figure Button is pretty safe. Ofcourse, Alonso can be a little unstable at times so who knows...

[wedge]

I read that article before I asked for a link. Thre is nothing in that article which says, and i quote"I deserve to be in F1"

I don't detect anything arrogant in that article.




"I'm thinking of my future now. I definitely want to remain in Formula One, as I had said before. I feel it's where I belong. My driving has adapted around these cars and it's what I do. It's my job.

"So I'm very keen to remain in Formula One and I believe I have a place in the paddock. We'll have to wait and see."

My interpretation was: 'I deserve to be in F1'. Judging by results - which matters most - Ant hasn't made very little achievements.

Likewise, whatever comes out the mouth of Lewis Hamilton people will either think its self belief/confidence or complete arrogance. :rolleyes:

I think Ant is delusional and should find a race seat elsewhere otherwise he's better off testing F1 cars. I'd rather see Ant with a couple of wins at Le Mans than look average in F1, at least he can have something on proud on his CV, just like drivers like Allan McNish.

[Valve Bounce]

My interpretation was: 'I deserve to be in F1'. Judging by results - which matters most - Ant hasn't made very little achievements.

Likewise, whatever comes out the mouth of Lewis Hamilton people will either think its self belief/confidence or complete arrogance. :rolleyes:

I think Ant is delusional and should find a race seat elsewhere otherwise he's better off testing F1 cars. I'd rather see Ant with a couple of wins at Le Mans than look average in F1, at least he can have something on proud on his CV, just like drivers like Allan McNish.

What you wrote was in quotations. In fact, you are telling lies to distort what was said so that you can falsely accuse ant of being arrogant. You're worse than the other guy who had an imaginary journo friend.

[Valve Bounce]

Mr Wedge! who is more delusional? Ant believing he belongs in F1 or bunsen believing he will win the WDC?

[wedge]

What you wrote was in quotations. In fact, you are telling lies to distort what was said so that you can falsely accuse ant of being arrogant. You're worse than the other guy who had an imaginary journo friend.

I'm not telling lies.

As I said, whatever Ant (or any other driver) says is speculation of his character.

I don't have a big problem with drivers being arrogant, because to a certain degree all drivers are arrogant because they want success.

Ant feels he's done enough to show he's a competent F1 driver but essentially struggled to beat Sato convincingly over a season and that's where the excuses crop up like 'the SA chassis was different to the original RAs'. Look what Alonso has done when he came back to a different Renault to the one he was used to at the height of his powers and yet Alonso practically destroyed Piquet Jr and carrying the team. Likewise, when Vettel jumped into the Torro Rosso's last year he was a lot quicker than Liuzzi (correct me if I'm wrong).

And what has Ant done exactly to stake a claim with Honda on a GP weekend?

Ant fans think Ant can do no wrong, a decent driver who deserves to drive in F1, whereas there are others like myself think Ant should give up on his F1 dream and find success elsewhere - that is the essential problem I have with Ant, I don't care if he is a Saint or a Scrooge.

[Valve Bounce]

[quote="wedge"]I'm not telling lies.

[./QUOTE]

Yes! you are. What you wrote was in quotations and was nothing like what ant said. That was a lie!! You made up that untruth so that you could accuse ant of being arrogant from that remark.

PLease don't do off writing heaps of tripe to cover up your lie!!

[wedge]

Mr Wedge! who is more delusional? Ant believing he belongs in F1 or bunsen believing he will win the WDC?

Like I said with Lewis Hamilton, some people will think its self-confidence and others will think its arrogance. It's speculative and open to interpretation and people individual opinions.

I suppose you've put me in a corner to give my opinion after dissing and dishonouring poster-boy AKA Anthony Davidson.

Put it this way, I think Bunsen can achieve a hell of a lot more in F1 than Ant could so respect Bunsen's arrogance/confidence more than Ant's.

I think Bunsen should stay because he's proven he can carry the team after hauling points for the second half of last year and he's in contention for wins but there's still question marks because he's never been in a top car and/or position to fight for a WDC.

[wedge]

I think we should just agree to disagree before I might post something I might regret

[ioan]

I think we should just agree to disagree before I might post something I might regret

Yeah, I think that's what you should do.

[jens]

Umm. I don't think we can be so negative about Davidson's view about him deserving an F1 drive. If he says that he doesn't deserve F1 seat, then well what kind of racing driver is he?

Btw, I think his thoughts are justified. In the second half of 2007 he outqualified Sato on most occasions and had some brilliant performances like P11 in Turkey, which is alas forgotten. In 2008 quali-score between TS and AD was 2-2.

Remember that back in BAR days Sato often created headaches to Button especially in qualis and as I can remember, he outqualified JB on several occasions, although was more ragged in the races. For example Sato's pace at the 2004 Nürburgring was absolutely fantastic - P2 in qualifying and was challenging for Barrichello's P2 in the race, a shame that he was too optimistic, Button really looked unnoticable that weekend compared to his teammate. Many people think that "Super Aguri-Sato" is more matured than "BAR-Sato".

From all this I conclude that Davidson can be a more serious threat to Button in the same team than many people may believe.

[Valve Bounce]

I think we should just agree to disagree before I might post something I might regret

Just stick to the truth - don't tell porkies!!

[ioan]

Remember that back in BAR days Sato often created headaches to Button especially in qualis and as I can remember, he outqualified JB on several occasions, although was more ragged in the races. For example Sato's pace at the 2004 Nürburgring was absolutely fantastic - P2 in qualifying and was challenging for Barrichello's P2 in the race, a shame that he was too optimistic, Button really looked unnoticable that weekend compared to his teammate. Many people think that "Super Aguri-Sato" is more matured than "BAR-Sato".

If I'm not mistaken Sato beat Button in his first race for Honda.
He was more ragged than Button but also faster than him. Talent wise I put Sato above Button.
If my memory is right than I think that Sato started racing cars much later than the average F1 drivers, so maybe this was one of the reasons for his erratic performance.

[aryan]

My interpretation was: 'I deserve to be in F1'.

Please don't put your interpretations in quotes then.

Perhaps you should take a course on academic honesty and plagiarism.

[Valve Bounce]

If I'm not mistaken Sato beat Button in his first race for Honda.
He was more ragged than Button but also faster than him. Talent wise I put Sato above Button.
If my memory is right than I think that Sato started racing cars much later than the average F1 drivers, so maybe this was one of the reasons for his erratic performance.

Actually, Taku had been a Honda protege for a long time through the junior ranks. He was then ensconced into the Jordan where he proceeded to have some rather frightening prangs, as well as a few fast laps. He was unfortunate that Honda withdrew their engines from Jordan but was put ahead of Davidson as reserve driver at BAR/Honda. He was promised a drive at the Japan GP and blurted this out before Jacques was advised he was being 'sacked'. I always suspected that Sato was provided with a special engine in his first race, but just the same, he acquitted himself very well and became the national hero overnight.

He drove quite well in his first year at BAR/Honda, scoring quite often as well as coming up with some very fast times during practice and quals. However, the following year, he tried too hard to match bunsen's performance, often trying things in quals and races that he never did during testing and practice. Consequently, his results suffered and he was replaced by Barichello, the driver who, on occasions even matched SchM at Ferrari. Sato's Japanese fans reacted strongly with protests, and so Honda founded Super Aguri to give Sato a ride.

With the demise of Super Aguri, I would not be surprised if Sato found himself in Honda's F1 car again next year. The reaction of his fans during this year's forthcoming GP will be the telling point.

I do feel sorry for Rubens, who is an honest and capable driver, given a drive in what is recognised as the dog of the grid. Rubens is a better driver than his results show. Perhaps he would qualify as one of the drivers in the other thread who would perform with excellent results if given a drive at McLaren. Now, he may be forced out of the team through no fault of his own.

That's as fair an assessment as I can come up with.

[jens]

If I'm not mistaken Sato beat Button in his first race for Honda.


Probably 2003 Japanese Grand Prix can be considered as their first race together. The end result was Button in P4 and Sato in P6 though. But a nice comeback anyway. :)

[ioan]

Oups, my wrong.

[Bolton Midnight]

Mark my words, it'll be Alonso and Danica there next year. Alonso'll think he's in for an easy ride (no, not like that) but she'll end up beating him off (no, not like that either). It would be interesting to see who came out on top (look, if you're going to keep on like this, I'm going...)

I'd lay off those drugs if I were you, Danica wouldn't stand a chance in F1, she's not even top of Indy so no chance in F1, she needs to stick to doing bikini shots.

Crying shame that Button hasn't had a decent car, he has the talents to be top 3 but not in that crate.

JB and Davidson would make for a cracking line up, but they must give them a decent car or JB's career will be wasted.

[Valve Bounce]

I'd lay off those drugs if I were you, Danica wouldn't stand a chance in F1, she's not even top of Indy so no chance in F1, she needs to stick to doing bikini shots.

Crying shame that Button hasn't had a decent car, he has the talents to be top 3 but not in that crate.

JB and Davidson would make for a cracking line up, but they must give them a decent car or JB's career will be wasted.

Hell yeah!! had bunsen been given a decent car to pedal, he'd be a triple WDC by now.

[gravity]

A good driver is a fast one. A great driver needs to be a complete package. Look at what MS did. Took a mid-range Bennetton into the points. Won the championship as the underdog. Moved across to Ferrari who were woefull. He was a big part in bringing those teams to the top.
Are JB or AD doing that for their teams?

[Bolton Midnight]

Even MS couldn't do anything with the Honda, maybe Senna or G Villeneuve could have.

JB was the only one who kept up with MS a few seasons ago remember.

You can't make a silk purse out of a sow's ear (but it does make a great novelty keyring)

[ShiftingGears]

Even MS couldn't do anything with the Honda, maybe Senna or G Villeneuve could have.

JB was the only one who kept up with MS a few seasons ago remember.

You can't make a silk purse out of a sow's ear (but it does make a great novelty keyring)

Hang on, youre saying that JB is as good as MS?

The same Button that is getting beaten by Rubens, who could only rarely equal or beat Schumacher?

[Valve Bounce]

A good driver is a fast one. A great driver needs to be a complete package. Look at what MS did. Took a mid-range Bennetton into the points. Won the championship as the underdog. Moved across to Ferrari who were woefull. He was a big part in bringing those teams to the top.
Are JB or AD doing that for their teams?

You want ant to lift Super Aguri to a level where they could have won the WDC? I want some of those smokies, please!!

[Bolton Midnight]

JB isn't getting beaten by RB though, 2007 & 2008 JB has had the upper hand over RB who as you so rightly say did beat MS on occasion.

That's pretty good going by JB.

JB whiped the floor with JV who was an ex champ when all said and done.

I don't think anyone currently is better than MS, KR is probably the best.

JB is on a par with FA, LH, KR

[Valve Bounce]

JB isn't getting beaten by RB though, 2007 & 2008 JB has had the upper hand over RB who as you so rightly say did beat MS on occasion.

That's pretty good going by JB.

JB whiped the floor with JV who was an ex champ when all said and done.

I don't think anyone currently is better than MS, KR is probably the best.

JB is on a par with FA, LH, KR

You're damn right, maybe even better.

[ioan]

Even MS couldn't do anything with the Honda, maybe Senna or G Villeneuve could have.

JB was the only one who kept up with MS a few seasons ago remember.


:rotflmao:

Kept up with MS?! Remind me who finished 2nd that year and who finished 3rd and by how many points?! Talk about keeping up! :rotflmao:

[ioan]

JB is on a par with FA, LH, KR

Maybe with LH!
However the other two should consider themselves lucky not to drive in the same team with JB, I suppose!

[Bolton Midnight]

:rotflmao:

Kept up with MS?! Remind me who finished 2nd that year and who finished 3rd and by how many points?! Talk about keeping up! :rotflmao:


2004 Formula One
(Lucky Strike B.A.R. Honda) 3rd. 85 points. Four 2nd (San Marino, Monaco, Germany, China). Six 3rd (Malaysia, Bahrain, Europe, Canada, Italy, Japan).

If someone can't see that Button is an immense talent then they just don't know racing, simple as that.

[Valve Bounce]

2004 Formula One
(Lucky Strike B.A.R. Honda) 3rd. 85 points. Four 2nd (San Marino, Monaco, Germany, China). Six 3rd (Malaysia, Bahrain, Europe, Canada, Italy, Japan).

If someone can't see that Button is an immense talent then they just don't know racing, simple as that.

Yeah!! He da Man!!

[Roamy]

bolton
some guys can drive but can't develop - some can develop and are not that brilliant. Some guys can do both
1. Button Barrichello Hamilton
2 Damon Hill coultard
3. Senna, MS, JV Alonso

Honda need a change - a big one

[Bolton Midnight]

bolton
some guys can drive but can't develop - some can develop and are not that brilliant. Some guys can do both
1. Button Barrichello Hamilton
2 Damon Hill coultard
3. Senna, MS, JV Alonso

Honda need a change - a big one

You are putting Jacques Villeneuve in the same league as Senna and Michael Schumacher?

What have you been smoking?

JV's set ups were all over the place at Williams, it was only because it was such a good car in the first place that he managed the results he did. I'm a huge GV fan but JV was average at best.

How's he doing with his roundy roundy stuff at the mo, not that brill eh?

Given a decent car JB would be top few, he's been there in the past and hopefully will be back there.

[Bagwan]

You are putting Jacques Villeneuve in the same league as Senna and Michael Schumacher?

What have you been smoking?

JV's set ups were all over the place at Williams, it was only because it was such a good car in the first place that he managed the results he did. I'm a huge GV fan but JV was average at best.

How's he doing with his roundy roundy stuff at the mo, not that brill eh?

Given a decent car JB would be top few, he's been there in the past and hopefully will be back there.

He's been smokin what I've been smokin , Mr. Midnight .

Hear anything about LeMans , sunshine ?
No whines from Peugeot or team-mates about being hard to work with , just accolades about being fast , easy-going , and technical down to the finest detail .
Head never wanted to share the stage , and JV was too good to stay .

Now , without the Pollock anchor , he will do just fine .

In a sense , you're right that JV never had a chance against JB , but more correctly it should be stated as "against JB and DR" .


Fousto has it right .
JB's good , but not better than JV .

[ioan]

2004 Formula One
(Lucky Strike B.A.R. Honda) 3rd. 85 points. Four 2nd (San Marino, Monaco, Germany, China). Six 3rd (Malaysia, Bahrain, Europe, Canada, Italy, Japan).

If someone can't see that Button is an immense talent then they just don't know racing, simple as that.

And how far behind MS and RB did he finish?!
You said he kept up with Michael, when the truth is he couldn't even keep up with Rubens.

[wedge]

You are putting Jacques Villeneuve in the same league as Senna and Michael Schumacher?

What have you been smoking?

JV's set ups were all over the place at Williams, it was only because it was such a good car in the first place that he managed the results he did. I'm a huge GV fan but JV was average at best.

How's he doing with his roundy roundy stuff at the mo, not that brill eh?

Given a decent car JB would be top few, he's been there in the past and hopefully will be back there.


HH Frentzen was average and JV destroyed him at Williams.

Frentzen got very little out of the Williams in his first year, in the best car. JV came in to F1 and almost won the WDC in his rookie.

So on what scale do you class JV as average?

JV was actually doing good in NASCAR, setting good times in practice but he never found a sponsor.

[Bolton Midnight]

Fact

JV had more testing than HHF was allowed, much much more.

JB > JV at BAR

JV crap at Sauber

What were the lap times from Le Mans in the fastest car even though the 2nd Audi beat them inc McNish who also is nowhere near JB.

iona which driver finished closest to the class of the field Ferraris?

Why if JV is as good as you say so is he almost unemployed? Maybe it's a baggy overall thing or an anti Americas thing, yeah that'll be it, because he's from Canada, if he were European he'd be in the McLaren or Ferrari now (both teams of course rejected JV even though he's so goddam amazing).

Wake up please.

[ioan]

iona which driver finished closest to the class of the field Ferraris?

I'm not disputing that JB finished 3rd, I'm disputing your claim that JB kept up with Schumacher.

[gravity]

Fact
both teams of course rejected JV even though he's so goddam amazing.

I have a feeling they know more about Button than you or me. If Button was so amazing, a top team would have fallen over backwards to have his services. What are his pre-F1 credentials, btw?

[Valve Bounce]

JV's set ups were all over the place at Williams, it was only because it was such a good car in the first place that he managed the results he did.

.

Actually, Jacques was not permitted to have his settings in the early part of the season as Head insisted different settings (and even tyres) be used. Head only relented during the second half of the season.

[CNR]

2000
8Jenson Button (http://www.formula1.com/results/driver/2000/6.html)BritishWilliams-BMW (http://www.formula1.com/results/team/2000/2068.html)12
2001
17Jenson Button (http://www.formula1.com/results/driver/2001/6.html)BritishBenetton-Renault (http://www.formula1.com/results/team/2001/2059.html)2
2002
7Jenson Button (http://www.formula1.com/results/driver/2002/6.html)BritishRenault (http://www.formula1.com/results/team/2002/1945.html)14
2003
9Jenson Button (http://www.formula1.com/results/driver/2003/6.html)BritishBAR-Honda (http://www.formula1.com/results/team/2003/1941.html)17
2004
3Jenson Button (http://www.formula1.com/results/driver/2004/6.html)BritishBAR-Honda (http://www.formula1.com/results/team/2004/2839.html)85
2005
9Jenson Button (http://www.formula1.com/results/driver/2005/6.html)BritishBAR-Honda (http://www.formula1.com/results/team/2005/2888.html)37
2006
6Jenson Button (http://www.formula1.com/results/driver/2006/6.html)BritishHonda (http://www.formula1.com/results/team/2006/2900.html)56
2007
15Jenson Button (http://www.formula1.com/results/driver/2007/6.html)BritishHonda (http://www.formula1.com/results/team/2007/2912.html)6
2008
16Jenson Button (http://www.formula1.com/results/driver/2008/6.html)BritishHonda (http://www.formula1.com/results/team/2008/2927.html)3

with 9 points in 2 years what team would pick him over and up and coming driver

[Valve Bounce]

Let's be honest here: bunsen is nowhere as bad a driver as his results in that Honda over the last three years suggest. Honda has fallen well off the pace over design and aero issues in that period.
In fact, if bunsen were to replace DC at Red Bull, Mark and bunsen would make a very good pairing.

(I can't believe I said that :( )

[Bolton Midnight]

So Button was best of the non-Ferraris, not too shabby for someone who's meant to be a bit of a tugger.

The fact Honda and Williams were fighting for his signatures speaks volumes, certainly wasn't the case with JV teams couldn't wait to get rid of him, hardly a glowing endorsement is it?

No wonder Head wouldn't allow JV's wacky Indycar settings as a F1 car isn't going round in circles on banked tracks.

No need for DC to go, him and MW are pretty even. But in the same machinery JB would wipe the floor with either MW or DC.

[Valve Bounce]

So Button was best of the non-Ferraris, not too shabby for someone who's meant to be a bit of a tugger.

The fact Honda and Williams were fighting for his signatures speaks volumes, certainly wasn't the case with JV teams couldn't wait to get rid of him, hardly a glowing endorsement is it?

No wonder Head wouldn't allow JV's wacky Indycar settings as a F1 car isn't going round in circles on banked tracks.

No need for DC to go, him and MW are pretty even. But in the same machinery JB would wipe the floor with either MW or DC.

I see you've been smoking that pro delusional weed again :rolleyes:

I just hope that you have not based a single word of your silly post on anything you may have thought I said. I could say that Frank was fighting for bunsen because he was contracted to Frank and that Frank had arranged substantial endorsements as a result.

I certainly would not rate bunsen above Hamilton, KubeMan or Alonso; as for wiping the floor with Mark, I think that would be delusional.

But then, you are entitled to your opinion here - and we are entitled to have a good laugh at them.

[CNR]

Jenson needs to stop crashing in to other cars

1 part of a dream team.
i wonder if the whole dream team could make honda win.

[ShiftingGears]

2004 Formula One
(Lucky Strike B.A.R. Honda) 3rd. 85 points. Four 2nd (San Marino, Monaco, Germany, China). Six 3rd (Malaysia, Bahrain, Europe, Canada, Italy, Japan).

If someone can't see that Button is an immense talent then they just don't know racing, simple as that.

He got third in what was clearly the second-best car. Please explain to us how that means he is on the same level as MS, and better than Raikkonen, Webber, Alonso, Kubica, Massa and Hamilton.

[Valve Bounce]

He got third in what was clearly the second-best car. Please explain to us how that means he is on the same level as MS, and better than Raikkonen, Webber, Alonso, Kubica, Massa and Hamilton.

No Probs!! you smoke enough of that stuff, you can convince yourself of anything!! I just wish he'd pass it around. :(

[gravity]

I remember that season. JB did look impressive. Whenever a team suddenly looks strong, I like to keep an eye who is doing all the development work. Who were the other team members? (including test driver/designer). JB looked like the up-and-coming star at the time... what changed? who left?

[Valve Bounce]

I remember that season. JB did look impressive. Whenever a team suddenly looks strong, I like to keep an eye who is doing all the development work. Who were the other team members? (including test driver/designer). JB looked like the up-and-coming star at the time... what changed? who left?

I know quite a few here would like to dispute this, but Honda doesn't. It was ant who did the hard testing and provided the valuable feedback. This was stated many times by Honda chiefs.

However, maybe bunsen had assistance in the form of an ingenious fuel return pipe in his dodgy fuel tank. Now that would have helped in both final quals and during the race.

I know they were only found out the following year, but............................

That's the gravity of the situation. :p :

[Garry Walker]

Crying shame that Button hasn't had a decent car, he has the talents to be top 3 but not in that crate.

JB and Davidson would make for a cracking line up, but they must give them a decent car or JB's career will be wasted.

Button had a great car in 2004 and at the beginning of 2006. And during some other times too. He did not do much with it.
At the moment he is struggling to beat the almost retired Barrichello.
BTW: How did Button do against Fisi in 2001 :D


Even MS couldn't do anything with the Honda, maybe Senna or G Villeneuve could have.
G villeneuve would just have gotten beaten by his teammate again.



JB was the only one who kept up with MS a few seasons ago remember.


:rotflmao:
Schumacher did to Button what every top driver has done to him - passed him and destroyed him at once.

Buttons defining moment is Canada 2005, when Schumacher in an inferior car was pushing him so much, that the moment he appeared in his mirrors, Button put it to the wall.


You want ant to lift Super Aguri to a level where they could have won the WDC? I want some of those smokies, please!!

Beating his teammate for starters would help.


JB isn't getting beaten by RB though, 2007 & 2008 JB has had the upper hand over RB who as you so rightly say did beat MS on occasion.

Well, JB has mostly been at least as fast as RB, not faster. At this stage of RBs career, that shouldn`t be happening.



JB whiped the floor with JV who was an ex champ when all said and done.Only because JV had many mechanical problems and problems with David Richards.



JB is on a par with FA, LH, KR
:rotflmao: :rotflmao:

Look, we have a new forum clown.


Fact

JV had more testing than HHF was allowed, much much more.
Surley you will have proof of that FACT?


JV crap at Sauber
He was at least equal with Heidfeld and only beaten by Massa who is a superbly fast driver.



What were the lap times from Le Mans in the fastest car even though the 2nd Audi beat them inc McNish who also is nowhere near JB. Le Mans is a TOTALLY different discipline than F1 and if you don`t see it, then you are a moron.
For starters, Le Mans is ENDURANCE racing. Cars are completely different too.

BtW: its nice of you to talk JV down, it only makes Button being slightly better than him in a team wanting him to beat JV, look less impressive :D


He got third in what was clearly the second-best car. Please explain to us how that means he is on the same level as MS, and better than Raikkonen, Webber, Alonso, Kubica, Massa and Hamilton.

Remember, you are dealing with a rabid fanboy, not a sane person. Logic, facts, reality - all these things are irrelevant in a fanboy world.

[Valve Bounce]

Sorry, can't read the preceding post - guy is on my ignore list. ;)

[SGWilko]

you are a moron.

Now that was not a clever post, was it, regardless of the context you wrapped it up in? :down:

[Garry Walker]

Now that was not a clever post, was it, regardless of the context you wrapped it up in? :down:

I agree, his post was not clever at all :D

Nice Quoting :up:

[ioan]

Now that was not a clever post, was it, regardless of the context you wrapped it up in? :down:

It's not nice to quote only a part of that sentence.

[SGWilko]

I agree, his post was not clever at all :D



So you are comfortable with bad mouthing other drivers (supporters of which, I note, do not call you a moron for), bet when it is your driver of choice being hammered, you resort to name calling.

Classy.

[SGWilko]

It's not nice to quote only a part of that sentence.

Ioan, you could always scroll up a bit and see for yourself the original post. :rolleyes:

You two are best buddies now then?

[Roamy]

I remember that season. JB did look impressive. Whenever a team suddenly looks strong, I like to keep an eye who is doing all the development work. Who were the other team members? (including test driver/designer). JB looked like the up-and-coming star at the time... what changed? who left?

next year's car is developed in the current year with exception a expermintal stuff which is thought up after the season. So JB's 04 car was developed in 03.

you will begin hearing ok we will scrap the rest of the year and concentrate on next years car. you will see a few do this shortly. Just like Brawn came in and didn't go PooF here is the winning car. you won't see brawn's stuff till next year.

[Garry Walker]

So you are comfortable with bad mouthing other drivers (supporters of which, I note, do not call you a moron for), bet when it is your driver of choice being hammered, you resort to name calling.

Classy.

Well, I have been called many things in my life, but never a Villeneuve supporter yet :D

[SGWilko]

Well, I have been called many things in my life, but never a Villeneuve supporter yet :D

Dang, did I say that? :confused:

[Garry Walker]

Dang, did I say that? :confused:

I was defending Villeneuve in my post, right?
You said I resort to name-calling when my favourite driver is being hammered, right?

[SGWilko]

your driver of choice


my favourite driver

Can you spot the difference?

[Bolton Midnight]

He got third in what was clearly the second-best car. Please explain to us how that means he is on the same level as MS, and better than Raikkonen, Webber, Alonso, Kubica, Massa and Hamilton.

Read what is written dear chap, not what you think is written, first rule of a forum, saves you looking mega silly.

[Bolton Midnight]

Oh so me saying JB is a very good driver is delusional but you lot saying MW & JV are better is fine, okay then, just as a matter of interest what colour is the sky in your world?

If the Honda was the 2nd best, who finished 4th in the title race?

What planet are you on if you think RB has had the upper hand over Button since the two have been at Honda? No matter which way you slice it JB > RB FACT, deal with it.

Excuses excuses for JV, he was slower than JB FACT, no excuses just deal with it my poor deluded friend.

Common knowledge to anybody with an ounce of knowledge about F1, JV had thousands of miles testing with Williams prior to his first race, hence why he did so well straightaway only ecclipsed by Hamilton last year.

Sauber sacked him, FACT they didn't want him he was that crap. As did Williams, nobody with a decent team wanted him, why is that?

Le Mans is different to F1, but one thing is the same JV got whupped.

But like I said, there are those that know racing and know that Button is a brilliant driver and those that don't.

Webber can't even beat the aged square jaw, doesn't say a lot about his potential does it.

[jens]

I think in 2008 we are witnessing a typical Button flaw again. If the car is crap, then he tends to be unmotivated and drives dispiritedly, rushing too much. Once again he managed to knock his front wing off in the last Grand Prix.

I remember, how much bashing Ralf got last year for seeming unmotivated. In that case we should treat drivers in similar way, which means that Jenson has to raise his game if he is able to do it at all. I could understand his unmotivation at the start of 2007, when he got beaten by Rubens quite often. Maybe that totally uncompetitive car came as a shock to him after a decent season. But in 2008 he is driving like that again is unacceptable and his contract will expire at the end of the season. Or does he think that his seat is so secure that he even doesn't need to prove himself to the team? Or prove to anyone else?

It's even funny that Button was expected to gain with the loss of TC. Actually it seems that he has lost more than others. On the contrary Massa was expected to struggle and he is leading the WDC. In the future the folks should definetely try not to predict, which effect will the rule changes have on anyone's driving. ;)

[ioan]

It's even funny that Button was expected to gain with the loss of TC. Actually it seems that he has lost more than others. On the contrary Massa was expected to struggle and he is leading the WDC. In the future the folks should definetely try not to predict, which effect will the rule changes have on anyone's driving. ;)

They can predict, but should base their predictions on something more than their personal preferences! ;)

[rickos]

Sauber sacked him, FACT they didn't want him he was that crap. As did Williams, nobody with a decent team wanted him, why is that?


http://www.pitpass.com/fes_php/pitpass_news_item.php?fes_art_id=23418

... and the #7 Peugot at LeMans was overheating and had to be backed off. Get your facts straight or get your pink slip at the door.

[Valve Bounce]

But like I said, there are those that know racing and know that Button is a brilliant driver and those that don't.

Webber can't even beat the aged square jaw, doesn't say a lot about his potential does it.

I think the above two sentences says it all.

[Bolton Midnight]

I could understand his unmotivation at the start of 2007, when he got beaten by Rubens quite often.

But on the whole JB has had the upper hand over RB. Even if he is lacking motivation he is still beating a chap who used to beat MS occasionally.

The very fact that people like Frank Williams were after his signature says far more than what a few armchair fans think.

[Valve Bounce]

The very fact that people like Frank Williams were after his signature says far more than what a few armchair fans think.

Frank had very good paying sponsors tied to bunsen - that's why he didn't want to lose his sig. He also had a very good compensation package lined up if bunsen renegged on his contractual responsibilities, which Honda coughed up on bunsen's behalf.

But since he renegged on the Williams drive, bunsen has done nothing, nada, ziltch, zero, bugger all, moyeh, ...........get the picture?

[ShiftingGears]

Webber can't even beat the aged square jaw, doesn't say a lot about his potential does it.

Webber has consistently and convincingly outpaced DC this year and last year, in a similar fashion to DC's world champion ex-teammates.

[Bolton Midnight]

Oh so Frank only picked him because he had a sponsor, get real will you. Why don't you rate Button yet manage to think Webber is something special.

Please post qualifying results and finishing points for DV vs. MW I think you'll find you are talking utter crap.

Deal with facts not opinions.

[Jimmy Magnusson]

What were the lap times from Le Mans in the fastest car even though the 2nd Audi beat them inc McNish who also is nowhere near JB.

McNish nowhere near JB? In F1, yes. Put Button out at Le Mans and McNish would grind him into the dust. And claiming that lap times is what decides endurance racing only shows how little you know about it. Had you watched the race you would have known that the race would have been an easy win for Peugeot if the team had done a better job in the pits.

[CNR]

Oh so Frank only picked him because he had a sponsor, get real will you. Why don't you rate Button yet manage to think Webber is something special.

Please post qualifying results and finishing points for DV vs. MW I think you'll find you are talking utter crap.

Deal with facts not opinions.


go get :s mokin:

2003
7David Coulthard (http://www.formula1.com/results/driver/2003/11.html)BritishMcLaren-Mercedes (http://www.formula1.com/results/team/2003/2012.html)51
10Mark Webber (http://www.formula1.com/results/driver/2003/21.html)AustralianJaguar-Cosworth (http://www.formula1.com/results/team/2003/1954.html)17
2004
10David Coulthard (http://www.formula1.com/results/driver/2004/11.html)BritishMcLaren-Mercedes (http://www.formula1.com/results/team/2004/2837.html)24
13Mark Webber (http://www.formula1.com/results/driver/2004/21.html)AustralianJaguar-Cosworth (http://www.formula1.com/results/team/2004/2841.html)7
2005
10Mark Webber (http://www.formula1.com/results/driver/2005/21.html)AustralianWilliams-BMW (http://www.formula1.com/results/team/2005/2886.html)36
12David Coulthard (http://www.formula1.com/results/driver/2005/11.html)BritishRBR-Cosworth (http://www.formula1.com/results/team/2005/2891.html)24
2006
13David Coulthard (http://www.formula1.com/results/driver/2006/11.html)BritishRBR-Ferrari (http://www.formula1.com/results/team/2006/2904.html)14
14Mark Webber (http://www.formula1.com/results/driver/2006/21.html)AustralianWilliams-Cosworth (http://www.formula1.com/results/team/2006/2902.html)7
2007
10David Coulthard (http://www.formula1.com/results/driver/2007/11.html)BritishRed Bull-Renault (http://www.formula1.com/results/team/2007/2915.html)14
12Mark Webber (http://www.formula1.com/results/driver/2007/21.html)AustralianRed Bull-Renault (http://www.formula1.com/results/team/2007/2915.html)10
2008
8Mark Webber (http://www.formula1.com/results/driver/2008/21.html)AustralianRed Bull-Renault (http://www.formula1.com/results/team/2008/2924.html)18
12David Coulthard (http://www.formula1.com/results/driver/2008/11.html)BritishRed Bull-Renault (http://www.formula1.com/results/team/2008/2924.html)6

Mark Webber ranks seventh on Auto Motor und Sport's driver salary list with US$7.5m a year, higher than whiz-kid Lewis Hamilton and the Australian's Red Bull teammate David Coulthard.

[ShiftingGears]

Oh so Frank only picked him because he had a sponsor, get real will you. Why don't you rate Button yet manage to think Webber is something special.
If you read his quote he said that Frank did not want to let go of Button because of the sponsor deals that depended on having Button in his tanks.

My lasting impression of Button when he had competitive machinery was that he is a very easy driver to pass, was not defensive enough, and even Kimi said that, who doesn't engage in mind games or bulls&^%.

The main argument that Button's fans used is that he is brilliant in the wet, after winning in Hungary '06. However subsequent wet grands prix showed that this isn't really the case at all.
There was also the argument that he would somehow destroy Barrichello without TC because of his smooth driving style, however that isn't the case either.


Please post qualifying results and finishing points for DV vs. MW I think you'll find you are talking utter crap.

LOL

The only time DC outqualified Webber this year is when Webbers car broke in qualifying. So bar the times when Webbers car broke in qualifying, Webber has outqualified Couthard seven times out of seven races.

As far as race results are concerned - Webber has beaten Coulthard six to one.


Surprisingly, my opinion that MW is the faster driver than DC is completely supported by the facts. So, wheres your facts?


Deal with facts not opinions.

:laugh:

Give me some facts. Make my day.

[wedge]

What planet are you on if you think RB has had the upper hand over Button since the two have been at Honda? No matter which way you slice it JB > RB FACT, deal with it.

http://www.f1-facts.com/statistics/team-mates/JButton

If Bunsen is that good as you claim then don't you think he should be destroying Rubens by now, as Webber is now doing to DC?


Webber can't even beat the aged square jaw, doesn't say a lot about his potential does it.

Where did you get that information from?

http://www.f1-facts.com/statistics/team-mates/MWebber

[Bolton Midnight]

How do you know McNish would beat Button at Le Mans? My point about Le mans was that JV was no great shakes, appreciate that'll upset the JV fans but so be it. Had Peugeot won it would have been more down to the other 2 drivers. Kristisen (sp) showed everybody up.

Please remind me how many wins MW has?

Looking at them results, it seems DC is way ahead of MW. MW is vastly over rated (and over paid it seems), a few flashes of inspiration but mostly he just breaks the car.

Last year DC 10th MW 12th, nuff said, end of blah blah.

Frank wanted JB as Frank is an excellent talent spotter, just like Dave Richards, both who know a hell of a lot more than a few prat room gimps I think you'll find.

Easy to pass or sensible enough not to tangle and then retire.

Nobody but Button has done anything of any note in the BARs or Honda.

[jens]

Okay, I'm going to participate in this impossible debate too. :p :

Wedge said Frentzen was an average driver. I do not agree with that one. Sure, he had a bad season in 1997, but this was also filled with a lot of unluck (lost a win at Hungaroring) and this was his worst season, when he didn't get well on with the team either. Looking at other seasons it can be noted that HHF was a very capable driver.

JB vs JV in 2003. I'm not going to start looking for a detailed analysis of that season, but the impression I got back then watching the season was that Jacques was slightly faster in the first half of the year (JB new to the team) and Jenson in the second half (when it was known JV was going to leave the team). Overall there was little between them, what alas the point standings didn't reflect as JV had more car failures.

As for the Le Mans topic here, then this is a pointless discussion as we simply have no information, how would JB perform there.

[wedge]

Please remind me how many wins MW has?

How many mediocre cars has Webber been in compared to Button, who arguably got a lucky win.


Last year DC 10th MW 12th, nuff said, end of blah blah.

And the present means nothing? I thought we were supposed to be dealing with facts on this thread? :D

[CNR]

How do you know McNish would beat Button at Le Mans? My point about Le mans was that JV was no great shakes, appreciate that'll upset the JV fans but so be it. Had Peugeot won it would have been more down to the other 2 drivers. Kristisen (sp) showed everybody up.

Please remind me how many wins MW has?

Looking at them results, it seems DC is way ahead of MW. MW is vastly over rated (and over paid it seems), a few flashes of inspiration but mostly he just breaks the car.

Last year DC 10th MW 12th, nuff said, end of blah blah.

Frank wanted JB as Frank is an excellent talent spotter, just like Dave Richards, both who know a hell of a lot more than a few prat room gimps I think you'll find.

Easy to pass or sensible enough not to tangle and then retire.

Nobody but Button has done anything of any note in the BARs or Honda.

from what i make of this you would like to see Coulthard at honda next year and Button out of honda because that is what this thread is about

[Valve Bounce]

Oh so Frank only picked him because he had a sponsor, get real will you. Why don't you rate Button yet manage to think Webber is something special.

Please post qualifying results and finishing points for DV vs. MW I think you'll find you are talking utter crap.

Deal with facts not opinions.

Who is DV :confused:

[Bolton Midnight]

Didn't HHF used to beat MS in Sportscars, not bad for an 'average driver'.

Yep JB > JV.

Agreed re Le Mans, rather pointless and pathetic to try and compare JB vs. McNish, but that's Internet Prat Rooms for you.

I do love it when typos are picked up on, as it means the person has nothing left to come back with, carry on but just look what letter is next to V on a keyboard, oh yes a C.

What I'd really like is to see the Honda a decent car top 3 car, and then Button would show everyone what those in the know, know already , what he is really capable of.

Last season DC beat MW, FACT deal with it.

DC is very much at the end of his career, one more season tops, yet the last full season he beat the supposedly superb Webber, how can this be, is it that Webber is nowhere near as good as some would like to think or is DC a bit of a superstar and shouldn't retire answers on a postcard to someone who gives a toss.

[jens]

I have quite never understood, why are driver comparisons often based on points. Are the folks too lazy to get into more detailed analysis regarding driver performances? Imagine if Sutil had scored 5 points from Monaco. Folks would be saying that Sutil is hammering Fisichella, although this is based only on one race, where FI had a realistic points opportunity and Fisi's fate was to have car problems just in that particular race. Sure this is a fact that DC scored more points than MW last year, but I think this is not the key issue in comparing them. The main task is to find out, who is better as a driver, not... who has enjoyed a more successful season resultswise. The latter one being a question, to which points can be a direct answer.

From what I saw last year, then in race weekends Webber was beating DC almost as convincingly as he is doing it now. Just the luck factor has changed. Mark has been a few tenths (sometimes less) quicker than DC in qualifying and if DC has a good race, he finishes approximately 10 secs behind Mark in the race (Malaysia, Turkey, France in '08).

But the difference is that in 2007 either Mark's car broke down from a point-scoring position or RBR wasn't simply quick enough so that even if the car finished, it was out of the points (and for some reason Mark had problems in races, where the car was quick enough for points, not in the ones, where it wasn't) - so when the car isn't quick enough, then you may beat your team-mate, but you don't get a reward for this by getting more points than the team-mate rival. This year RB is reliable and capable of consistent point scoring in every race, therefore it creates a fairer comparison platform. Now it's DC's turn to just miss out of points, because in those 'good races' for him he has been the first one out of the points (9th on three occasions) in a very tight midfield. But those narrow misses have been made up by a lucky podium, so the points comparison this year (18-6) can be regarded as quite a fair reflection of performance. IMO.

[wedge]

DC is very much at the end of his career, one more season tops, yet the last full season he beat the supposedly superb Webber, how can this be, is it that Webber is nowhere near as good as some would like to think or is DC a bit of a superstar and shouldn't retire answers on a postcard to someone who gives a toss.

Look at the facts and they were almost equal last year, DC slightly scored more points and Webber better in qualy.

Now its Webber who's the better driver. It would need tragedy of some kind to ruin the consistent form he's been in.

Rubens is in similar position to DC and yet he's almost equal to Button. How can this be? Is it that Jenson is nowhere near as good as some would like to think or is Rubens a bit of a superstar and shouldn't retire answers on a postcard to someone who gives a toss. :rolleyes:

[Bolton Midnight]

Ahh so when MW's car breaks it's bad luck but fair game when DC's car breaks, ahh I see grasshopper. Also why couldn't mega star Webber do better than rookie Rosberg in the Williams, more of this bad luck thing that has been with Webber at every team and every season, or maybe it's just Webber is a bit rubbish and vastly over rated perish the thought, he's done crap, most seasons he struggles to get into double figures he's that crap.

You are a team boss, you have a choice pick a driver that will finish in the points or one that will usually but not always out qualify the other one but rarely finish, ahh yes tricky one that.

Points make prizes, fact.

Both RB and JB are doing crap, but hardly surprising in that piece of junk, both have the talent to be a lot nearer the front.

Just read that Honda are after Alonso, now that would be good to see FA languishing about in the Honda, maybe then clueless goons would say he was crap and that Webber and Jacques are far better.

But if he brought Del La Rosa and some Renault secrets then him and Button could start winning regularly. As both are capable of wins in a decent car.

[wedge]

Ahh so when MW's car breaks it's bad luck but fair game when DC's car breaks, ahh I see grasshopper. Also why couldn't mega star Webber do better than rookie Rosberg in the Williams, more of this bad luck thing that has been with Webber at every team and every season, or maybe it's just Webber is a bit rubbish and vastly over rated perish the thought, he's done crap, most seasons he struggles to get into double figures he's that crap.

FACT: Webber was better than Rosberg

http://www.f1-facts.com/statistics/team-mates/NRosberg


You are a team boss, you have a choice pick a driver that will finish in the points or one that will usually but not always out qualify the other one but rarely finish, ahh yes tricky one that.

Both - but that's for a different thread/argument.

[jens]

Ahh so when MW's car breaks it's bad luck but fair game when DC's car breaks, ahh I see grasshopper.

The difference is that DC had problems mainly, when he was driving out of the points and this is a big difference. If you are out of the points, retirement doesn't cost you anything (like it has been the case with DC), but if problems occur in point positions, like it was with Webber, then retirement costs points. If Webber hadn't been robbed of a second place at Fuji (after which DC inherited a 4th place), then the points score would be 18-13 and we would have a very different discussion here.

Better tell me in which races last year DC was better than Webber. I give you Chinese and Bahrain Grand Prix's. Any other race? (and don't even try to mention Spanish GP, when Webber incredibly had problems throughout the whole weekend).

[Bolton Midnight]

Webber was only just ahead of his rookie team mate at Williams, pretty poor really for such an alleged superstar.

Just as well you aren't a team manager then, as they want the points above all yes. Having some rock ape over driving the car till it breaks is pointless, literally. Being in 5th when you broke the car means nowt.

All I keep on hearing about Webber is sob stories about his bad luck; boo hoo, I feel so sorry for him. Is he Tim Henman or something? Odd how the likes of Prost made their own good luck.

[jens]

Poor Jenson and Rubens. This thread was supposed to be about them, but we are talking about... Mark, David, Nico, Jacques. :p : Let's throw someone else in!

About the so-called unluck of drivers. Well, surely some drivers are more famous for their "bad luck", but life has shown that even if those "car breakers" get a reliable car, then they are capable of consistent finishing. Alesi, who had a lot of unluck throughout his career too, finished 16 (or was it 15 (?) as he retired in one GP some 3 laps before the end) races out of 17 in his last season in 2001. Now Mark is finishing consistently too. This only proves that no-one is a hopeless car breaker, just something needs to be done about unreliability.

[CNR]

Webber was only just ahead of his rookie team mate at Williams, pretty poor really for such an alleged superstar.

Just as well you aren't a team manager then, as they want the points above all yes. Having some rock ape over driving the car till it breaks is pointless, literally. Being in 5th when you broke the car means nowt.

All I keep on hearing about Webber is sob stories about his bad luck; boo hoo, I feel so sorry for him. Is he Tim Henman or something? Odd how the likes of Prost made their own good luck.

You're Two Faced
what no new driver to f1 can be as good as lewis in his first year.
i am sure if william had not been stuck with a crap Cosworth Engine.
but when you look at that mark go allmost 2 times the points of Nico

and Nick Heidfeld in the Sauber BMW F1 1 23 points and Jacques Villeneuve only got 7 points

but we know that the money jenson and honda paid williams paid for the Cosworthengine deal

[wedge]

All I keep on hearing about Webber is sob stories about his bad luck; boo hoo, I feel so sorry for him. Is he Tim Henman or something? Odd how the likes of Prost made their own good luck.

You could say the same about Bunsen:


What I'd really like is to see the Honda a decent car top 3 car, and then Button would show everyone what those in the know, know already , what he is really capable of.

[ShiftingGears]

but mostly he just breaks the car.

People thought this when Kimi had an unreliable car. And now that he's in a sturdy car he's proven that to be utter bulls%&^. Same with Webber this year.


Last year DC 10th MW 12th, nuff said, end of blah blah.

When both cars actually finished the race, DC finished ahead once. And that was on tyre strategy. DC's main points haul was from 4th position in Fuji, when Webber was taken out of second, which is, unsurprisingly, ahead of Coulthard. Unfortunately for Webber, his car broke when the car was capable of being in the points, but since you don't want to analyse the results because it doesnt suit your point of view, you ignored this.


Easy to pass or sensible enough not to tangle and then retire.

Easy to pass.

[Bolton Midnight]

You're Two Faced
when you look at that mark go allmost 2 times the points of Nico


Nice try, do you work for Nu Labour by any chance?
Webber 7pts vs. Rosberg 4pts, wow 3pts better than a complete rookie, the MW fan club must have been so very proud of their superstar driver.

Still the excuses carry on for Webber, blah blah poor Mark, you make your own luck. If this if that, if my aunt had balls she'd be my uncle.

FACT DC beat MW last year
FACT MW vastly over rated

[ShiftingGears]

Nice try, do you work for Nu Labour by any chance?
Webber 7pts vs. Rosberg 4pts, wow 3pts better than a complete rookie, the MW fan club must have been so very proud of their superstar driver.

Villeneuve beat Scheckter in 1980 by 4 points, and yet you think he is better than Schumacher, so maybe you should run us through that logic.


FACT MW vastly over rated


Don't confuse facts with opinion otherwise people think you're stupid or full of s&^*. :)

[jens]

-- blah blah poor Mark, you make your own luck. --


Using your logic, then why hasn't Button made his own luck? By getting into a better team for example.

[Bolton Midnight]

Did I say GV was better than MS? Don't remember that. GV was the quicker driver against JS but at the end of the day JS is an ex champ and GV isn't.

Webber's results prove beyond all doubt he's overrated.

Faced with a choice of Williams or Honda anybody with half a brain would assume Honda would be the choice, esp with Brawn onboard. So JB has tried to make his own luck.

[jens]

Faced with a choice of Williams or Honda anybody with half a brain would assume Honda would be the choice, esp with Brawn onboard. So JB has tried to make his own luck.


In that case you shouldn't complain about Button having a bad car by saying "Give him a good car and he'll show, how good he is". So he is pretty much there, where he deserves. :p :

[ShiftingGears]

Did I say GV was better than MS?
That is clearly what you were suggesting.

Even MS couldn't do anything with the Honda, maybe Senna or G Villeneuve could have.



Webber's results prove beyond all doubt he's overrated.

Give me some evidence to convince me that Webber was not convincingly faster than both Rosberg and Coulthard in '06 and '07, because it is clearly impossible for you to do so for this year.


Faced with a choice of Williams or Honda anybody with half a brain would assume Honda would be the choice, esp with Brawn onboard. So JB has tried to make his own luck.

Don't be foolish. Trying to make your own luck is NOT making your own luck. Considering the fact that Williams was a well established team and BAR was not, it was a fortunate choice that JB made.

The fact that you mention Brawn in JB choosing Honda is stupid as Brawn was in Ferrari when Button decided to go to BAR.

[Valve Bounce]

Hey!! this is good!! I've been waiting all day for this guy to come online. Keep it up Bolton!! You're going great!! I'll even check my keyboard so I can understand who DV is.

[wedge]

FACT MW vastly over rated

http://www.itv-f1.com/Feature.aspx?Type=Ted_Kravitz&id=43133


Here’s a question: Is Mark Webber the most under-rated driver on the grid?

There was something metronomic in his performance in France – consistent lap times, the sixth fastest race lap, thanks to a pretty symmetrical two-stop strategy: A standard first stint, to lap 23, a long-ish middle stint to jump Alonso, which worked perfectly, and a steady run to the flag.

Another three points. “Not to be sniffed at, mate”, as Mark said after the race.

So should Webber be offered a job with a championship-winning team? I can’t see why not, yet he seems not to be on any of their wanted lists. Why not?

The top teams constantly assess all the drivers on their performances, looking at fuel-corrected lap times and judging them against known quantities such as their team-mates. No worries there, Webber has yet to be consistently beaten by a team-mate on pure pace.


You're Two Faced


Not quite.

It's quite possible.....
















and Bolton Midnight will find this preposterous.....



















but Webber and Bunsen could well be near equal drivers (IMHO)!!!!

[Valve Bounce]

Two reasons here:
1) Mark's manager is Sleazy Flav
2) The Red Bull, under Adrian Newey, could end up being one of the top cars next year.

Jest a thought :p :

[Bolton Midnight]

That is clearly what you were suggesting.

Give me some evidence to convince me that Webber was not convincingly faster than both Rosberg and Coulthard in '06 and '07, because it is clearly impossible for you to do so for this year.


Was it, nice of you to say what I was thinking. Read what is written in future.

MW scored the grand sum of 3 more points than complete rookie NR wow-wee what an ace.

DC scored more points than MW last year, which bit of that do you not understand?

[ShiftingGears]

Was it, nice of you to say what I was thinking. Read what is written in future.

It was clearly implied, by saying that MS could not make something out of the Honda, and suggesting that GV could. So maybe you should work on your articulation next time ;)


MW scored the grand sum of 3 more points than complete rookie NR wow-wee what an ace.

Unreliability. Webber solidly outpaced Rosberg in every race in '06, and due to the car failing in races like Euro, Germany, Monaco etc etc Webber could not extend his lead on Rosberg. What do you not understand about that?


DC scored more points than MW last year, which bit of that do you not understand?

Webber was unfortunate not to convert his sheer speed advantage into results because the car kept blowing up. What do you not understand about that?

I think we have seen this year, that when Webber has a reliable car, he delivers, and when DC has a reliable car, he is slower than Webber, generally qualifies in the lower midfield, and crashes.

[CNR]

Was it, nice of you to say what I was thinking. Read what is written in future.

MW scored the grand sum of 3 more points than complete rookie NR wow-wee what an ace.

DC scored more points than MW last year, which bit of that do you not understand?
mark has nothing to do with honda trying to drop both drivers so shut the FU** up you :s mokin: :s mokin: :s mokin: dope smoking son of a *****

[Valve Bounce]

mark has nothing to do with honda trying to drop both drivers so shut the FU** up you :s mokin: :s mokin: :s mokin: dope smoking son of a *****

Hey! Hey! Hey! Hey!!! none of that!! I've been waiting all day for this guy to come online so we can have some fun!!

[Bolton Midnight]

Senna could get better results out of a slow car than anybody else could manage, Villeneuve quick laps but would probably stuff it.

So no I wasn't implying that at all, learn to read.

Unreliability, boo hoo, funny how DC's same car tended to last isn't it? But all this if and but mean Jack, MW scored less than his soon to be pensioned off team mate, which by anybodies standard is pretty crap, he’s a rock ape, even by Australian standards.

If your relatives hadn't been stupid enough to get caught you'd not be Australian, but they were so no ifs or buts.

Honda don't want rid of Button though, do they thunderbolt, no need to ask which boat your relatives were on, well debated. It wasn’t me who started crying re MW but his fan club.

[CNR]

Senna could get better results out of a slow car than anybody else could manage, Villeneuve quick laps but would probably stuff it.

So no I wasn't implying that at all, learn to read.

Unreliability, boo hoo, funny how DC's same car tended to last isn't it? But all this if and but mean Jack, MW scored less than his soon to be pensioned off team mate, which by anybodies standard is pretty crap, he’s a rock ape, even by Australian standards.

If your relatives hadn't been stupid enough to get caught you'd not be Australian, but they were so no ifs or buts.

Honda don't want rid of Button though, do they thunderbolt, no need to ask which boat your relatives were on, well debated. It wasn’t me who started crying re MW but his fan club.
you got it in one fu**er but not as you think Captain John Hunter.

[ShiftingGears]

So no I wasn't implying that at all, learn to read.
:laugh: Oh dear.


Unreliability, boo hoo, funny how DC's same car tended to last isn't it?

His car also broke, but when DC's car broke it was when the car was not as fast compared to the competition. I've also noticed how you haven't responded to my comments about how MW has consistently beaten DC this year, now that the car doesn't fall apart. Funny about that, it supports all my claims, whereas you want to accept statistics at face value.


he’s a rock ape, even by Australian standards.

If your relatives hadn't been stupid enough to get caught you'd not be Australian, but they were so no ifs or buts.

Honda don't want rid of Button though, do they thunderbolt, no need to ask which boat your relatives were on, well debated. It wasn’t me who started crying re MW but his fan club.

:laugh: :laugh:










:laugh:

[CNR]

Honda don't want rid of Button though,quote]
Honda don't want :s mokin: to get :s mokin: rid of Button though,quote


Neither current race driver is guaranteed his Honda (http://www.duemotori.com/brands/en/honda/) Seat (http://www.duemotori.com/brands/en/seat/)beyond this season, team boss Nick Fry has warned.

With both Jenson Button and Rubens Barrichello's contracts expiring at the end of the year, Fry points out that the Brackley based outfit is an increasingly attractive proposition amongst other talented drivers on the market
.

http://www.duemotori.com/news/f1/27176_Honda_could_have_two_new_drivers_in_2009.php

[Valve Bounce]

:laugh: Oh dear.

:laugh: :laugh:


:laugh:

See!! told you he was good! Don't throw any rocks!! Just keep the bananas coming.

[Hawkmoon]

If your relatives hadn't been stupid enough to get caught you'd not be Australian, but they were so no ifs or buts.

My parents came out in the late-fifties when my grandparents decided they'd had enough of that dreary, lifeless little island you call home. I've got as much English blood in me as anybody but I've never called myself English and I never will. Do you wan't to continue with the insults or should we stick to talking about F1?

In 2007 Webber out-qualified DC 15-2. This season it's 7-1 to Webber and the 1 for DC is Australia where Webber had a mechanical failure in Q2. That's a rather comprehensive arse-kicking, you'd have to agree.

In the races the ledger is more even. In 2007 they both had 7 retirements. DC's were 4 mechanical and 3 by accident and Webber's were 6 mechanical and 1 by accident (and that accident knocked him out of 2nd place in Japan through no fault of his own). This season it's one retirement for Webber and 2 for DC. All three DNF's were by accidents.

So whilst DC outscored Webber 14-10 in 2007, 2008 has seen DC's arse being routinely kicked. It's 18-6 to Webber but more importantly it's 6 points-scoring finishes for Webber and 1 for DC. So it would seem that now that Red Bull have sorted their reliability Webber is delivering and DC isn't.

To tie this into the actual thread topic, if Honda had a choice of Webber, DC, Button and Barrichello for 2009, who do you think they'd take? I think it's pretty obvious that Webber and Button would logically get the nod. If that were the case we'd finally see just how good Button is becuase he'd be up against the best qualifier on the grid. No more old men or erratic rookies for Mr Button.

[inimitablestoo]

Read what is written in future.

Like when it said "DV" for instance... ;)


Is there any way you can report an entire forum to the mods? :s

[pino]

Thread reopened and almost cleaned...please keep it that way or others will end with a temporarly ban !

[markabilly]

I always clean my posting with soap and water, with a touch of kool aid, to keep them good and clean......

as to "With both Jenson Button and Rubens Barrichello's contracts expiring at the end of the year, Fry points out that the Brackley based outfit is an increasingly attractive proposition amongst other talented drivers on the market " I understand that both JV and Scot not speed both are "on the market" along with Sato Davidson, Vitto L, RS, and even FA

opps almost forgot dandy danica P

[ShiftingGears]

Thread reopened and almost cleaned...please keep it that way or others will end with a temporarly ban !

Don't spoil my fun next time :(

[Valve Bounce]

I always clean my posting with soap and water, with a touch of kool aid, to keep them good and clean......

P

"Little Herman, and brother Sherman
Had an aversion to washing their ears
Grandma scrubbed them with her Lysoap,
They haven't heard a word in all these years."

[Bolton Midnight]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/motorsport/formula_one/7513972.stm

Honda sticking with both drivers and why not both are excellent drivers.

FACT

[Dave B]

That story is already out-of-date.

Brawn initially said that Honda were keeping both drivers, only to be corrected on Saturday by Nick Fry who said there's "no reason" why not but that nothing had been signed. Brawn then backtracked on his comments.

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/69303

So not a "FACT", but highly likely.

[Oli_M]

I think a major factor here could be that - WHO would replace them??

I believe we may see the "win GP2, lets get him in an F1 car" mentality start to slide a little now.... Lewis, Heikki and Rosberg have made their mark, but Speed has already gone, and its not been the best results for Piquet and Glock. Maybe teams will think very carefully before grabbing drivers out of this years GP2. But that then leaves us with - where to look for drivers to (potentially) replace JB and RB. Yep maybe we have Sato and Davidson but is that going to be a significant improvement? I really don't see Alonso going to Honda.... and as for looking to the States I think they'd probably prefer to grab a GP2 driver (which, as I already said, is a bit of a risk).....

I really am struggling to come up with any serious contenders for the seats.

[Bolton Midnight]

FACT that they are both excellent drivers.

GP2 has proved pretty good I'd say Glock and Piquet both doing quite nicely.

Davidson deserves to be in F1.

States is more a retirement home than a talent breading ground.

The had one good year in a JV developed car. Yes alll you guys who laughed can now see the truth.

So what happened in the other 5 seasons Villenueve developed the car?

Or was he not actually the team leader in 99, 00, 01, 02 & 03?

[Bolton Midnight]

Now don't go spoiling things with facts, just pretend that JV is an ace at setting cars up and ignore all his non Williams years where he was pants.

[jens]

FACT that they are both excellent drivers.


I think instead of word "fact" you should use word "opinion". This post doesn't mean I necessarily disagree with your opinion (not fact!), but driver ratings are always more or less subjective.

[speeddurango]

Fact that all F1 drivers are excellent drivers.

[jens]

Fact that all F1 drivers are excellent drivers.

Yes, true that. ;)

[Bolton Midnight]

Jenson Button seems to be doing okay at present, doesn't he?

And err superstar Webber, being made to look ordinary by Vettel

What difference a season makes

EPIC FAIL by some posters

[gloomyDAY]

How long have you been waiting to bump this thread?

At least looking back I was right about Nick Fry's bluff.
Nobody wanted to be a part of Honda, but now as Brawn GP it is a favorable proposition!

[CNR]

Jenson Button seems to be doing okay at present, doesn't he?

And err superstar Webber, being made to look ordinary by Vettel

What difference a season makes

EPIC FAIL by some posters

:eek: it was thru this thread i got a 1 month ban and so did Bolton Midnight so just a reminder to watch what you post and what may seem normal to some may be offense to others :eek:

[jens]

Well, at least one thing is clear - while many thought in 07-08 that Button has made a poor career choice, then it has turned out it was a brilliant career choice. :p : I doubt Button would have ever got as great chance anywhere else as he has got in his current team, when we put together two factors - competitiveness of machinery + competitiveness of team-mate.

[ShiftingGears]

Davidson deserves to be in F1.


I didn't see anything that would indicate that, at all.

If he wasn't British, you wouldn't think he deserved a seat.

[ShiftingGears]

And err superstar Webber, being made to look ordinary by Vettel

They both did a great job. I don't know what you're talking about, especially considering that Button hasn't dominated any race so far in what is still the benchmark car.

[Bolton Midnight]

Just found it whilst trying to find something else, seems a lot of folk were well wide of the mark re Button and Webber.

Vettel showed Webber well up, the Red Bull was the car to have yesterday clearly.

Button & Vettel > Webber

FACT

[ShiftingGears]

Just found it whilst trying to find something else, seems a lot of folk were well wide of the mark re Button and Webber.

Vettel showed Webber well up, the Red Bull was the car to have yesterday clearly.

Button & Vettel > Webber

FACT

:laugh:

Get a brain, and learn the difference between fact and opinion.

[Bolton Midnight]

Boo hoo

Webber has proved he's vastly over rated as Vettel is whupping him in identical machinery and as for JB he's leading the championship, boo hoo epic fail by some and seems they can't even admit it when proven oh so wrong.

[ShiftingGears]

Boo hoo

Webber has proved he's vastly over rated as Vettel is whupping him in identical machinery

I suppose Webber whooped him in identical machinery in Malaysia, when he was beating Vettel before Vettel spun out and stalled, no?


and as for JB he's leading the championship, boo hoo epic fail by some and seems they can't even admit it when proven oh so wrong.

That is because overall, the Brawn is simply the best car on the grid.

[Bolton Midnight]

Vettel was quicker than Webber at Malaysia, always a sign of a good driver if he's good in the wet Vettel > Webber FACT

The Red Bull was best yesterday FACT

Just admit it, both Button and Vettel are shwing Webber up.

Just have a slice of humble pie and admit it you failed.

[ShiftingGears]

Vettel was quicker than Webber at Malaysia

No, no he wasn't.


always a sign of a good driver if he's good in the wet Vettel > Webber FACT
Vettel is a great driver, but Webber was faster in Malaysia. And you used an opinion to justify another opinion of yours as 'fact'.



The Red Bull was best yesterday FACT

No, the Red Bulls driven by Webber and Vettel were the best yesterday. Doesn't mean it was the best car. Doesn't mean that your opinion is a fact.


Just admit it, both Button and Vettel are shwing Webber up.

Just have a slice of humble pie and admit it you failed.

:laugh:
Vettel has an entire half a point more than Webber. Shown up, for sure. I'm yet to see how Button is showing Webber up, besides the fact that he's British and this suddenly makes him an amazing driver.

I'm not having an argument with someone who is too stupid to realise the difference between fact and opinion.

[Bolton Midnight]

Vettel qualified 3rd Webber was 5th I think, 3rd is quicker than 5th, same car just a better driver, FACT.

Being beaten makes you a less good driver, being Australian doesn't come into it.

[pino]

I'm not having an argument with someone who is too stupid to realise the difference between fact and opinion.

One more insult and you will be banned !

[EuroTroll]

Dear British and Australian friends, I'm here to offer a compromise: both Button and Webber are average, and currently very much flattered by excellent cars.

You're welcome! ;)

:p :

[Knock-on]

Dear British and Australian friends, I'm here to offer a compromise: both Button and Webber are average, and currently very much flattered by excellent cars.

You're welcome! ;)

:p :

:laugh:

Now we know who's covering ioan role while he's on sabbatical :D

[EuroTroll]

:laugh:

Now we know who's covering ioan role while he's on sabbatical :D

Yes, I'm being paid 1 € per post. ;) Hope I don't accidentally venture into a thread discussing Schumacher, Ferrari or Hamilton, though. :eek: I might say something that's in violation of our contract. :D

[Bolton Midnight]

Button and Vettel are both exceptional drivers, Webber is over rated esp by Kiwis and Australians.

[EuroTroll]

Button and Vettel are both exceptional drivers, Webber is over rated esp by Kiwis and Australians.

Funny, an Aussie might say, "Webber and Vettel are both exceptional drivers, Button is over rated esp by the English or Brits in general."

And he'd be just as right! :D

Did I say right? I meant wrong. ;)

Except that Vettel truly is exceptional.

[Knock-on]

Except that Vettel truly is exceptional.

I'll agree on that.

I rate Lewis slightly above Button in terms of ability and Vettel is around about the same.

All 3 would be in the top division of current F1 drivers and although I like Webber, he's slightly outside in division 2.

[EuroTroll]

All 3 would be in the top division of current F1 drivers and although I like Webber, he's slightly outside in division 2.

Now that's funny, 'cause an Aussie might say... :D

You get the idea. ;)

Face it boys, both Button and Webber are Division 2. ;) Very good, just not great.

Unlike Lewis and Vettel. And the Asturian Princess. And even Massa and Kimi..

But ok, I guess I've made my point now, so I'll stop. ;)

[Bolton Midnight]

Vettel, Button, Hamilton, Glock are the future of F1

Webber never has been and never will be the future of anything, not saying he's crap or owt just nowhere near as good as some think. There's a reason teams want the likes of Button and Vettel and a good reason not of the top teams will ever show interest in Webber he's just not that good.

Trulli, Fisi = Webber midfielders at best

The main point was how wrong those that wrote Button off were, not to mention how wrong they were re how superb Webber would be in a decent car.

Sod all to do with Nationality or are Alonso, Vettel etc suddenly Brits, nope, I have the ability to look past the flag, seems some others can't though.

[EuroTroll]

Vettel, Button, Hamilton, Glock are the future of F1

Webber never has been and never will be the future of anything, not saying he's crap or owt just nowhere near as good as some think. There's a reason teams want the likes of Button and Vettel and a good reason not of the top teams will ever show interest in Webber he's just not that good.

Trulli, Fisi = Webber midfielders at best

The main point was how wrong those that wrote Button off were, not to mention how wrong they were re how superb Webber would be in a decent car.

Sod all to do with Nationality or are Alonso, Vettel etc suddenly Brits, nope, I have the ability to look past the flag, seems some others can't though.

Damn it, I can't stop, I need the money! :p :

Firstly,
- Vettel is 21,
- Hamilton is 24,
- Button is 29, now in his 10th season...

Secondly, Webber used to be the future of Williams. ;)

Thirdly, when did a team who was really on the top ever want Button?! (Keeping in mind Honda/Brawn was not a top team when they signed him.)

Fourthly, remember when the midfielder Fisichella humiliated his team-mate Button at Benetton?

Fifthly, your bloomer is to put Button on the same list as those non-Brits you mention. ;)

[Knock-on]

Vettel, Button, Hamilton, Glock are the future of F1

Webber never has been and never will be the future of anything, not saying he's crap or owt just nowhere near as good as some think. There's a reason teams want the likes of Button and Vettel and a good reason not of the top teams will ever show interest in Webber he's just not that good.

Trulli, Fisi = Webber midfielders at best

The main point was how wrong those that wrote Button off were, not to mention how wrong they were re how superb Webber would be in a decent car.

Sod all to do with Nationality or are Alonso, Vettel etc suddenly Brits, nope, I have the ability to look past the flag, seems some others can't though.

Yep, I agree with all that.

Sutil may be another to break into the top league but time will tell.

[jens]

Button has been the future of F1 already for 10 years by now. But his career progression has been quite peculiar too, which has made him look like "forever young". :) But F1 has been quite strange this year, so who knows, maybe Barrichello and Trulli are the future of F1 too. ;) And by the way, this is a fact... or I should write FACT. :p :

[Bolton Midnight]

Williams & Honda BAR = top teams prepared to go to court just to get JB's signature as they unlike a few clueless goons knew just how great JB was/is.

Can't see anybody dashing to court to secure a midfielder like MW.

[EuroTroll]

Williams & Honda BAR = top teams prepared to go to court just to get JB's signature as they unlike a few clueless goons knew just how great JB was/is.

Can't see anybody dashing to court to secure a midfielder like MW.

Yeah, now I think they would if Webber signed for one team while being contracted to another for the next season. :laugh:

[jens]

Mr Wedge! who is more delusional? Ant believing he belongs in F1 or bunsen believing he will win the WDC?

What a funny turnaround in life - Button's belief may not be that delusional any more at all. :laugh:
Sorry for quoting a 1-year-old post. :)

[CNR]

Williams & Honda BAR = top teams prepared to go to court just to get JB's signature as they unlike a few clueless goons knew just how great JB was/is.

Can't see anybody dashing to court to secure a midfielder like MW.
no it was over breach of contract



A year after Jenson Button tried to jump ship and join Williams for 2005, his BAR-Honda team have offered Sir Frank Williams their test driver Anthony Davidson and a financial sweetener of £5m in a desperate attempt to hang on to Britain's leading race driver.

After his planned switch was stymied by the Contracts Recognition Board last September, Button signed a contract to rejoin Williams for 2006 and they intend to hold him to it. In Germany last weekend, where Button finished third, Williams turned down his verbal request to be released, and said: "We have an existing contract for Jenson to join us in 2006. There is nothing that will change that."
The BAR team principal, Nick Fry, said that it would breach Button's human rights to force him to honour a contract he no longer wants to be bound by. But Fry knows only too well that Williams now have the high ground with the CRB that was the key to BAR retaining him for 2005.
Williams are less attractive to Button after their poor performances this year accelerated the divorce from BMW. They are seeking a deal with Toyota, but the Japanese motor manufacturer must wait first to see if the financially beleaguered Jordan team can come up with the money. Williams may thus have to rely on Cosworth engines for a stopgap season. Several of their sponsors have medium-term contracts, but having to pay for engines will strain the budget.
http://www.independent.co.uk/sport/motor-racing/williams-rebuff-bar-offer-in-battle-to-secure-button-500306.html
Bolton Midnight GET OVER IT

[Bolton Midnight]

Webber would not be being chased by two teams at the same time and why, because he's not all that good.

FACT

[CNR]

Webber would not be being chased by two teams at the same time and why, because he's not all that good.

FACT

OK back it up with proof you can not can you.

[CNR]

FACT



After declining a contract with the Arrows team in July '00, Webber completed a three-day F1 test for Benetton at Estoril, topping the times ahead of Giancarlo Fisichella and Ralf Schumacher. His impressive performances for Benetton secured Webber the role of official test and reserve driver for 2001, a year that also saw him finish runner-up in the 2001 FIA International Formula 3000 Championship for Supernova.

[ShiftingGears]

One more insult and you will be banned !

I can't help it if others don't know the difference :(

[Bolton Midnight]

OK back it up with proof you can not can you.

Chinese GP Vettel whupped him bigstyle

Case closed, Webber not the real deal.

[CNR]

Chinese GP Vettel whupped him bigstyle

Case closed, Webber not the real deal.


Bolton Midnight has be found guilty of not knowing what he posts Case closed

Webber would not be being chased by two teams at the same time and why, because he's not all that good.

[Garry Walker]

Chinese GP Vettel whupped him bigstyle

Case closed, Webber not the real deal.

Malaysian GP.
Webber whupped Vettels sorry ass and Vettel made such a poo-poo in his pants that he spun out like an idiot. (yes, Webber was faster in qualy too)

[Bolton Midnight]

Vettel did a 1:35.518
Webber a 1:35.797

So then which one of those laps is quicker, have a think about it, maybe draw a graph, ask a friend, no rush, get back to me when you've fathomed out this tricky elapsed time conundrum.

[Garry Walker]

Vettel did a 1:35.518
Webber a 1:35.797

So then which one of those laps is quicker, have a think about it, maybe draw a graph, ask a friend, no rush, get back to me when you've fathomed out this tricky elapsed time conundrum.

Compare the fuel loads and you will know why I said Webber was faster.

[Bolton Midnight]

Nope you've still not grasped it, try again.

Here's a clue, the less time it takes to do one lap of a track the quicker you must be going, got it yet?

[Dave B]

In my experience, people who end their posts with "FACT", "Case closed", or "Nuff said" tend to know they've been caught out with no evidence. Now they may well have a valid opinion, but all too often mistake that for fact. Just ask... oh you can't, he's banned.

[ArrowsFA1]

...the less time it takes to do one lap of a track the quicker you must be going, got it yet?

Compare the fuel loads and you will know why I said Webber was faster.
You're both right :D

[F1boat]

In my experience, people who end their posts with "FACT", "Case closed", or "Nuff said" tend to know they've been caught out with no evidence. Now they may well have a valid opinion, but all too often mistake that for fact. Just ask... oh you can't, he's banned.

Yes. I dislike such smugness as well.

[EuroTroll]

Back on topic: both Button and Webber are Division 2. FACT! CASE CLOSED!! NUFF SAID!!!

:D :p :

[Bolton Midnight]

Webber - truly awesome, what a mega star

[CNR]

arsenal worst football team ever



Sutil has been demoted to the back row of the starting grid for impeding Red Bull's Webber, who qualified only 19th of the 20 drivers after being obstructed by the German.

[Bolton Midnight]

The same Arsenal that are unbeaten in 2009 Premiership you mean?

Yet again Button & Vettel > Webber

FACT

[EuroTroll]

The same Arsenal that are unbeaten in 2009 Premiership you mean?

Yet again Button & Vettel > Webber

FACT

Oh get a room, you two. ;)

A room in crazy-land. ;)

NUFF SAID! :laugh:

[Daniel]

In my experience, people who end their posts with "FACT", "Case closed", or "Nuff said" tend to know they've been caught out with no evidence. Now they may well have a valid opinion, but all too often mistake that for fact. Just ask... oh you can't, he's banned.
Nuff said! FACT! :up:

[Bolton Midnight]

Still no apology from the Webber fans who had the cheek to say MW was anywhere near the level of Button?

[SGWilko]

Still no apology from the Webber fans who had the cheek to say MW was anywhere near the level of Button?

Turn it in. What could the guy do. He had a good first lap.

You may have noticed what happened in Q1, no?

[jens]

Case Closed.

(Need to say something else? Of course not)

[Bolton Midnight]

It is case closed really, Webber has proved enough already this year, he is nowhere near as good as Button or Vettel and all those who though he was earlier on in this thread could not have been more wrong, just like I said all along.

Button > Webber.

[CNR]

http://tahoemtb.files.wordpress.com/2008/04/no_fishing_prohibition_sign.png

[ShiftingGears]

It is case closed really, Webber has proved enough already this year, he is nowhere near as good as Button or Vettel and all those who though he was earlier on in this thread could not have been more wrong, just like I said all along.

Button > Webber.

Really, your intelligence is enviable.