So how is it so far?!!

[jimispeed]

For me there's just too many frigg'n ovals........

Plus, I miss the atmosphere of Champcar. Not even the same vibe....

Too much like NASCAR.

[beachbum]

For me there's just too many frigg'n ovals........

Plus, I miss the atmosphere of Champcar. Not even the same vibe....

Too much like NASCAR.So, why are you here? The crappies are still having lots of fun and looking for co-conspirators.

[jimispeed]

I'm still here because I like open wheel racing!!

I get the idea that you would rather Champcar/CART just be forgotten, and treated as if it never existed. Like all of the history that the IRL now owns is never to be used in the same sentence as CART/Champcar.

I loved a series for a very long time. I hope in the future that Indycar can become more like what it bought the rights to CART/Champcar's history to.

This thread was started in order to see how fellow former Champcar fans were feeling about this series so far.

I'm not here to cut it down....... I AM here to try to build it up.

Maybe you think that the same formula that the IRL had was a great one?

I'd prefer to call it Indycar, and help to make it the greatest open wheel series in the world!!

This won't happen though. If people feel aren't open minded.

[BenRoethig]

I'm still here because I like open wheel racing!!

I get the idea that you would rather Champcar/CART just be forgotten, and treated as if it never existed. Like all of the history that the IRL now owns is never to be used in the same sentence as CART/Champcar.

CART should not be forgotten, it was the benchmark for what a North American Open Wheel series should be (on the track). Champ Car, on the other hand needs to be forgotten ASAP. Like George's original vision for the IRL, it catered to only a small niche while operating way beyond its resources. To be perfectly honest, it seems like you would be more in line with a America version of GP2 than where the Indycar series is going.

[jimispeed]

For me there's just too many frigg'n ovals........

Plus, I miss the atmosphere of Champcar. Not even the same vibe....

Too much like NASCAR.


I mean that the format seems to be more like NASCARS format.

Was I being harsh??

[jimispeed]

CART should not be forgotten, it was the benchmark for what a North American Open Wheel series should be (on the track). Champ Car, on the other hand needs to be forgotten ASAP. Like George's original vision for the IRL, it catered to only a small niche while operating way beyond its resources. To be perfectly honest, it seems like you would be more in line with a America version of GP2 than where the Indycar series is going.


I love a great oval race! But, open wheel racing should never be dominated by it IMO. Open wheel cars are very nimble. Texas was a pretty good one. Indy, Michigan, Fontana and the paper clip. If Indycar went back to CART of yesteryear then alot of us open wheel folks would be in heaven!!

I agree with you on the final outcome of Champcar, but it also showed some pretty great races on some very nice Road and Street courses.

I didn't mean to offend, but I guess I said it too blatantly.

[BenRoethig]

I love a great oval race! Texas was a pretty good one. Indy, Michigan, Fontana and the paper clip. If Indycar went back to CART of yesteryear then alot of us open wheel folks would be in heaven!!

I think that is the intent, but legal contracts got in the way. Champ Car had most of the good street circuits and natural terrain road courses from the original Indy/CART days. By the time reality set in and they realize there was no money for 2008, the IRL already had a firm schedule. The reason that places like Road America, Portland, and Toronto are not because they're unwanted, but because there was no place to put them without being in breach of other contracts.

[Miatanut]

For me there's just too many frigg'n ovals........

Plus, I miss the atmosphere of Champcar. Not even the same vibe....

Too much like NASCAR.

We're in the IndyCar forum. If we are critical of IndyCar, folks get bent out of shape.

[mikiec]

For me there's just too many frigg'n ovals........

Plus, I miss the atmosphere of Champcar. Not even the same vibe....

Too much like NASCAR.

For me, I wouldn't say that there are too many ovals, just too many all bunched together. We had nothing since the end of April, then the Indy 500 and two ovals back-to-back and I'm getting withdrawal symptoms. I need to see cars turning right.

I'm sure it'll be the same for the oval fans when we get to back-to-back road/street courses.

[45 Below]

For me, I wouldn't say that there are too many ovals, just too many all bunched together. We had nothing since the end of April, then the Indy 500 and two ovals back-to-back and I'm getting withdrawal symptoms. I need to see cars turning right.

I'm sure it'll be the same for the oval fans when we get to back-to-back road/street courses.

The scheduling needs some work to mix it up more.

I can understand CART fans yearning for the way things were. Hang in there - I think the series will get a whole lot more interesting when they hit the street and road courses. The so-called transition teams will be right up there and we could be looking at about a dozen drivers with a legimate shot at the top spot.

[beachbum]

CART and Champ Car aren't forgotten, but the fact is they are both gone. They failed in the realities of todays racing. I loved Can-Am racing "back in the day" as the most exciting sport car racing ever, even against any of today's series, but it too is gone forever. Open wheel racing today will change, but to suggest it will morph back into the Champ Car of the past few years is unrealistic. That model failed. Personally, I really don't like cookie cutter 1.5 mile D shaped ovals, in any series (including NASCAR), but they are the predominate oval track available and will be part of any oval based series.

Ovals have always been the one aspect of US open wheel that has set it apart from other open wheel series in the world and made it unique. In the early days, there were very few non-oval races. Without a strong schedule of ovals, it looks just like another clone series or F1 wanna-be and is no longer uniquely American. If that isn't the racing you like, there are plenty of alternatives.

I think the one non-surprise so far is how the "transition" teams have done. They are stout on road courses, as expected, and are very close to running up front on ovals. In a year, they will all be on equal ground. The strong teams from Champ Car will be at the front fighting for wins, and the weak teams will be at the back fighting for scraps. A couple of the drivers have really shined on ovals, like Servia and even Viso. They will be a force before long.

[champcarray]

It's OK for me. On the plus side, it's great to see so many cars and good drivers at the same track. On the down side, the TV coverage is adequate at best, I don't like tracks where drivers barely let off the throttle, and I don't care for the look of the cars or the sound of their engines.

I'm looking forward to the continuing improvement of the ex-CCWS teams and hopefully a future with multiple chassis manufacturers and engine suppliers.

[maxmach]

A mix of tracks is the best, it sets the series apart, and it challenges the drivers. This year, like the drivers, is a transition year, hell, so is next year.
So, we support the series, it's the only one we got. Realizing that we are not even close to seeing the final product.

[millencolin]

So far... well...

The grid is much more impressive. I cant complain with the results with the two and a half Australians scoring success. The Champ Car teams are not as far behind as I would of thought. And Surfers is still there


But its not perfect. I think almost everyone can agree that the television coverage does need to be improved. The commentary team could put a caffeine addict to sleep. Of course the car isnt pleasing everybody, the sponsors arnt exactly flocking in either. The schedule does need to be diversified a bit as there are there are too many ovals atm and there will be too many road/street courses afterwoods.

But its a long road ahead and nothing is cured magically. I've been through a split and merger with my other favourite sport before. Patience is a virture for the fans. Just enjoy what we have got

[dataman1]

I am with most of you in that there have been too many ovals so far this season. If you don't count Long Beach or Motegi since not everyone participated in each, IndyCar has had 5 ovals and 1 street races (83% Oval). If we count the other 2 we have 6 ovals and 2 street races (75% Oval). No debate needed, just pointing out fact.

The 2008 schedule couldn't be changed last minute and I understand that. I am hoping for a much better schedule next year.

I will point out that unlike most Tin Can races, the IndyCar guys are racing wheel to wheel on ovals for much longer periods which is "edge of the seat" kind of entertainment. I know I said "wow" more than once during the Texas race.

[F1boat]

It's OK, it's nice, but we still have a dominating driver.

[Breeze]

At least the oval races we've had have been (mostly) good ones. I'm ready for some road course action, but I can tolerate the schedule. What is encouraging is that TV numbers seem to be better, press is DEFINITELY better, and the racing has been darn good ('cept for Marco screwing us out of a couple of potentially FANTASTIC finishes).

It all bodes well for a great series in years to come!

[Rex Monaco]

CART should not be forgotten, it was the benchmark for what a North American Open Wheel series should be (on the track). Champ Car, on the other hand needs to be forgotten ASAP. Like George's original vision for the IRL, it catered to only a small niche while operating way beyond its resources. To be perfectly honest, it seems like you would be more in line with a America version of GP2 than where the Indycar series is going.

+1

[guysky]

This string seems slightly nicer than the "Drivers reject TMS-boss oval push", so a friendlier place to join the mix with my first post. My 2 cents :

There are many discussions about what is "better" racing, what drivers prefer, what is more exciting open wheel racing. But the discussion must be about MARKET VIABILITY. We (real racing fans) don't matter. The attention and pockets of potential casual fans are what determines how a successful series will be run. The masses will never be massive racing fans. Whatever the masses enjoy watching will be the factor Indycar officials consider, not our sporting preference.

Ovals are compact, entirely visible, and high speed. I like ovals because I like my racing fast, and I grew up on dirt tracks where sprint cars battle side by side. This is "pure" open wheel racing IMO.
Road courses are enjoyable but apparently difficult to maintain financially.
Street courses are bumpy and boring. Leave it to F1. However, street circuits generate more city-wide revenue than a racetrack miles away.
I went to Homestead and St Pete this year. As a fan, Homestead was thrilling and St Pete was miserable.

What about the idea of weekend festivals where Indycar is simply the top attraction? Does anyone know how these pan out financially?
The Homestead weekend of car shows, concerts, indy lights, rolex series, and indycar makes sense to me. Cross-marketing has been a key to nascar's rise. Would this style of multiple-shows work as a larger strategy?

So how goes it so far? I'm just still so excited that there is one series massively better than either split series, so I am willing to suffer the year or two of working out the kinks. The tv coverage was sooo bad at Texas that hopefully a few production people will get fired and they will try something else.

[ZzZzZz]

Without a strong schedule of ovals, it looks just like another clone series or F1 wanna-be and is no longer uniquely American.

CART road racing was never a wanna-be version of F1. The CART races were always exciting, featuring plenty of passing. In those days F1 races were trains. Qualifying order was predictable, passes were rare, finishing order was the same as qualifying, less a significant number of mechanical failures. F1 improves to what it is now by incorporating elements of CART. In many peoples' eyes CART, Champ Car and Indy Car road racing was and is better than F1. The F1 wanna-be argument is B.S.!

[!!WALDO!!]

CART road racing was never a wanna-be version of F1....... The F1 wanna-be argument is B.S.!

So Bobby Rahal and several other owners went to Europe in 1991 and told Bernie, "We will bury F-1".

Then months later voted down the Sanction of the 500. Not a good year for the old smarts department.

Bernie has a long memory and Rahal is not a person recognized by Bernie as a person breathing, so forget Graham in F-1.

The IRL is more viable because it doesn't compete with the Flea Circus and he wants Indy back. His sponsors are telling him so.

[MAX_THRUST]

I was all for the merger once it happened. Sadly though, I'm m ot seeing any of the races, because the IRL is too slow to sort out its European tv coverage. Right now they are missing alot of CCWS fans that would have come over. Instead, I'm bored. Its hard to get excited over a series you can't watch for one reason or another. I don't feel the IRL is exactly reaching out to other nations. Sky tv coverage is fine, but is not worth the subscription fee. I aint paying to watch a football channel. Motors TV should pick up the IRL then the IRL will actually get seen........

[xtlm]

For me there's just too many frigg'n ovals........

Plus, I miss the atmosphere of Champcar. Not even the same vibe....

Too much like NASCAR.


hmm well...

Iowa Speedway
Richmond International Raceway
Watkins Glen Internationa
Nashville Superspeedway
Mid-Ohio Sports Car Course
Streets of Edmonton
Kentucky Speedway
Infineon Raceway
The Raceway at Belle Isle Park
Chicagoland Speedway

seems like there are 5 ovals and 5 road courses left (6 if you count the non point race)

so, look to he bright side, more road courses in the future for you!!

[ZzZzZz]

So Bobby Rahal and several other owners went to Europe in 1991 and told Bernie, "We will bury F-1".

Then months later voted down the Sanction of the 500. Not a good year for the old smarts department.

Bernie has a long memory and Rahal is not a person recognized by Bernie as a person breathing, so forget Graham in F-1.

The IRL is more viable because it doesn't compete with the Flea Circus and he wants Indy back. His sponsors are telling him so.

Can I ask how this incoherence is a response to what I said?

[!!WALDO!!]

Can I ask how this incoherence is a response to what I said?


CART road racing was never a wanna-be version of F1.

Your words and the point that CART wanted to be F-1. According to the powers to be. Coherence enough response for you.

[bblocker68]

Can I ask how this incoherence is a response to what I said?

Just think "meds".

[indyracefan]

...I would like to see the ICS have a 24+ race season with a 60/40 oval-road/street split.

[-Helix-]

I love a great oval race! But, open wheel racing should never be dominated by it IMO. Open wheel cars are very nimble. Texas was a pretty good one. Indy, Michigan, Fontana and the paper clip. If Indycar went back to CART of yesteryear then alot of us open wheel folks would be in heaven!!

I agree with you on the final outcome of Champcar, but it also showed some pretty great races on some very nice Road and Street courses.

I didn't mean to offend, but I guess I said it too blatantly.

AOW has always been dominated by ovals. Drivers grow up racing short tracks and dirt tracks, sprints and midgets, OVALS.

American Open Wheel was started on ovals and has a lot more tradition and history on ovals than road racing.

To say that IndyCar should not be dominated by ovals is a very absurd statement.

I think you might be looking for the F1 forum.

[indyracefan]

...AOWR was founded on running ovals, and for a large part of it's history that's all they raced. This idea was resurrected with the formation of the IRL but for a variety of reasons was met with marginal success with fans & sponsors. Far more history and tradition with oval racing than road/street racing.

[cartpix]

...AOWR was founded on running ovals, and for a large part of it's history that's all they raced. This idea was resurrected with the formation of the IRL but for a variety of reasons was met with marginal success with fans & sponsors. Far more history and tradition with oval racing than road/street racing.


AOWR was founded with riding mechanics, skinny tires, production type chassis & drivetrains, not to mention engines in front. There's a huge amount of history and tradition there. If the modern race car can evolve out of the past, why can't the tracks they race on? AOWR started on ovals because the infrastructure was already in place, hoarse tracks. Since that time, many road tracks were built. Indy cars have gone away from the lay over Offys and offsett chassis. These cars are built so they can turn right, too. So why not let them?

Jeff

[garyshell]

...AOWR was founded on running ovals, and for a large part of it's history that's all they raced. This idea was resurrected with the formation of the IRL but for a variety of reasons was met with marginal success with fans & sponsors. Far more history and tradition with oval racing than road/street racing.


AOWR was founded with riding mechanics, skinny tires, production type chassis & drivetrains, not to mention engines in front. There's a huge amount of history and tradition there. If the modern race car can evolve out of the past, why can't the tracks they race on? AOWR started on ovals because the infrastructure was already in place, hoarse tracks. Since that time, many road tracks were built. Indy cars have gone away from the lay over Offys and offsett chassis. These cars are built so they can turn right, too. So why not let them?

Jeff


<tongue firmly in cheek mode on>

Or do both!

<tongue firmly in cheek mode off>

As long as the mix is not HEAVILY weighted in one direction or the other I am quite happy with a diverse schedule. And I am not going to look at this year or even next year's schedule to decide if it is weighted in one direction or the other.

Gary

[ZzZzZz]

Your words and the point that CART wanted to be F-1. According to the powers to be. Coherence enough response for you.

There's a big difference between CART wanting to be as big as F1, and wanting to be like F1.

My point was that CART and Indy Car had/have elements that F1 does not offer. These are differences we prefer to continue to exist.

It is simply not valid to write off people's opinion on specific ovals or the balance of ovals on the schedule with some hyperbolic argument that they are trying to sabotage the series. These people's ideal is what CART was and beyond. That includes a lot of ovals in the balance.

[!!WALDO!!]

There's a big difference between CART wanting to be as big as F1, and wanting to be like F1.

"WE WILL BURY YOU", means what.


My point was that CART and Indy Car had/have elements that F1 does not offer. These are differences we prefer to continue to exist.

So what do you want to continue to exist.


It is simply not valid to write off people's opinion on specific ovals or the balance of ovals on the schedule with some hyperbolic argument that they are trying to sabotage the series.

So we must embrace what died over what survived, right?



These people's ideal is what CART was and beyond. That includes a lot of ovals in the balance.

What was CART? You mean the Competitors setting the rules, sell chassis, leasing engines, rider buyers and promoting races? That CART?

[Bob Riebe]

AOWR was founded with riding mechanics, skinny tires, production type chassis & drivetrains, not to mention engines in front. There's a huge amount of history and tradition there. If the modern race car can evolve out of the past, why can't the tracks they race on? AOWR started on ovals because the infrastructure was already in place, hoarse tracks. Since that time, many road tracks were built. Indy cars have gone away from the lay over Offys and offsett chassis. These cars are built so they can turn right, too. So why not let them?

Jeff
Indianapolis was founded with riding mechanics, Indy was/is unique, the rest of AOWR was ovals with varied conncoctions of cars sizes, and some were dirt tracks of up to two miles. Sprint cars which is really the heart of AOWR, ran on tracks of up to one and one half miles into the fifties.

After the separation of "big cars" from sprint cars, in the fifties, only then did the large paved oval races become common.

AOWR is ovals; road races as nice as they are on some tracks, are an oddity.
Beyond Indy, AOWR would survive just fine on the sprint car circuits that finally pay decent in some areas, and as I said Indy is unique and will survive, with or without a sanction or series of any sort.

[!!WALDO!!]

Indianapolis was founded with riding mechanics, Indy was/is unique, the rest of AOWR was ovals with varied conncoctions of cars sizes, and some were dirt tracks of up to two miles. Sprint cars which is really the heart of AOWR, ran on tracks of up to one and one half miles into the fifties.

After the separation of "big cars" from sprint cars, in the fifties, only then did the large paved oval races become common.

AOWR is ovals; road races as nice as they are on some tracks, are an oddity.
Beyond Indy, AOWR would survive just fine on the sprint car circuits that finally pay decent in some areas, and as I said Indy is unique and will survive, with or without a sanction or series of any sort.


Nothing beats a Champ Car on narrow tires throwing dirt. In 1965 I saw im McElreath turn a 32.89 on the Springfield Mile in the #52 John Zink Moore Dirt Car. He broke George Amick's record of 1957 and Jim's record stood until 1981 when Larry Dickson got it.

I always describe that as the most perfect lap.

[djparky]

CART should not be forgotten, it was the benchmark for what a North American Open Wheel series should be (on the track). Champ Car, on the other hand needs to be forgotten ASAP. Like George's original vision for the IRL, it catered to only a small niche while operating way beyond its resources. To be perfectly honest, it seems like you would be more in line with a America version of GP2 than where the Indycar series is going.

totally agree- will always remember CART- will happily forget CCWS

as for this years Indy Car series- best one since the late 1990's (CART seasons)- thoroughly enjoyed St Petersburg, Indy and Milwaukee- the cars are ugly and the Danica focus on the TV is annoying but it is wonderful to have Penske v Newmann-Haas v Ganassi v Andretti Green again- and having Graham Rahal and Marco Andretti side by side on the Milwaukee grid was fantastic

bring in Long Beach, Surfers Paradise, Road America, Cleveland, Edmonton, Toronto and Mexico City to the schedule next year and I'll be very happy

once the new car has been launched I would now consider going to the Indy 500 or another Indy Car race

[ZzZzZz]

"WE WILL BURY YOU", means what.

It means you are off an some bizarre tangent that has absolutely nothing to do with what I said.




So what do you want to continue to exist.


I want Tony George to continue to do what he is doing, which is working towards having the best racing on the best tracks with the best drivers and the best crowds. Since there are more venues that want a race than there are slots of the schedule. There's a lot of subjectivity, as well as guesswork, as to which tracks would be best.




So we must embrace what died over what survived, right?


Indy Car's current success is based on embracing the best of what CART was, which was the its racing philosophy. A balance of short ovals, superspeedways, natural terrain tracks, street races and an airport course.



What was CART? You mean the Competitors setting the rules, sell chassis, leasing engines, rider buyers and promoting races? That CART?

No, the racing.

[!!WALDO!!]

It means you are off an some bizarre tangent that has absolutely nothing to do with what I said.

CART wanted to be like F-1 that simple, nothing bizarre about it. Just a plain simple fact from 1991.


I want Tony George to continue to do what he is doing, which is working towards having the best racing on the best tracks with the best drivers and the best crowds. Since there are more venues that want a race than there are slots of the schedule. There's a lot of subjectivity, as well as guesswork, as to which tracks would be best.

Ones that do not cost over $15,000,000 each year to build the track would be nice to be dropped.



Indy Car's current success is based on embracing the best of what CART was, which was the its racing philosophy. A balance of short ovals, superspeedways, natural terrain tracks, street races and an airport course.

Really, Watkins Glen, Sonoma, Mid-Ohio, St Pete and Belle Isle. The only races that have been on the schedule as Indy Car races so far that have been successes so far for Indy car in the Left/Right world.


No, the racing.

Like 1994 right?

[!!WALDO!!]

totally agree- will always remember CART- will happily forget CCWS

as for this years Indy Car series- best one since the late 1990's (CART seasons)- thoroughly enjoyed St Petersburg, Indy and Milwaukee- the cars are ugly and the Danica focus on the TV is annoying but it is wonderful to have Penske v Newmann-Haas v Ganassi v Andretti Green again- and having Graham Rahal and Marco Andretti side by side on the Milwaukee grid was fantastic

bring in Long Beach, Surfers Paradise, Road America, Cleveland, Edmonton, Toronto and Mexico City to the schedule next year and I'll be very happy

once the new car has been launched I would now consider going to the Indy 500 or another Indy Car race

So you are not planning on going to any races, right? Then why bring on races you will not attend or maybe watch because the "cars ar ugly and the Danica focus on the TV is annoying." Another wanting to go back to CART.

If I felt that way I wouldn't watch or comment, I would go out at race time and walk 3 miles. Watch baseball or NASCAR.

[-Helix-]

AOWR was founded with riding mechanics, skinny tires, production type chassis & drivetrains, not to mention engines in front. There's a huge amount of history and tradition there. If the modern race car can evolve out of the past, why can't the tracks they race on? AOWR started on ovals because the infrastructure was already in place, hoarse tracks. Since that time, many road tracks were built. Indy cars have gone away from the lay over Offys and offsett chassis. These cars are built so they can turn right, too. So why not let them?

Jeff

Pretty sure the infastructure for road racing was in place back then too... public roads? 'Lot more of those than there were horse tracks.

Road racing has been around just as long as oval racing, yet oval racing is traditionally the dominant form in AOWR.

I'm not saying they don't belong on road courses, I like a mixture. But anyone that thinks AOWR doesn't belong on ovals or doesn't realize why it's always been dominated by ovals needs to open their eyes.

[!!WALDO!!]

Pretty sure the infastructure for road racing was in place back then too... public roads? 'Lot more of those than there were horse tracks.

I the teens, roads? Actually there were more horse tracks. Problem was the races like CART tried to go to the people so some courses were 40 miles in length and ran 6 laps so people would sit and wait for over an hour for the cars to come round. Soon the fans stopped showing so they went with the Board Tracks. Soon there were no Road Races on the schedule and remained that way until the 1937 Vanderbilt and again it start with 1965 with 1 point race, 1966 2, one point race, 1967 5, all point races, 1968, 9 all point races, 1969, 8 all point races, 1970, 3 all point races. Problem was the shows did not do well year after year. IRP was the longest surviving show 6 years, Riverside and Castle Rock 3 years, Mosport, St Jovite 2 years, Mt Fuji, Las Vegas, Donnybrooke, Kent, Sonoma, 1 year.


Road racing has been around just as long as oval racing, yet oval racing is traditionally the dominant form in AOWR.

From 1919 to 1949 in the U.S. in what form? Its roots like Drag Racing is in Southern California in the 1950's. Mostly non-professional classes. It really wasn't until the USRRC got going that Road Racing took root. It is too bad that every one of those went out of business. USRRC/CanAm, Trans-Am and Formula-5000 with all of the so called re-starts. Just not enough fans to support it. Look today at the G-A and ALMS as they are not drawing either as the new fan wants to see the whole race not pieces of it.


I'm not saying they don't belong on road courses, I like a mixture. But anyone that thinks AOWR doesn't belong on ovals or doesn't realize why it's always been dominated by ovals needs to open their eyes.

See if NASCAR could go into the Western New York Market on an oval or the Northern California market with an oval both races would be gone. They are driven by the market.
It is interesting in 1968 season, Indianapolis Raceway Park drew 12,500 for a race, what 7 miles from where they drew 250,000 6-7 weeks earlier. Then in September drew more than IRP at the Indiana State Faigrounds, another 7 miles away to see them race on dirt. A horse track. That race was the second highest paying race on the schedule.

I agree in a mix but we must be careful. In 1968, 28 races were run, 9 on RC, 5 on Dirt, 9 on Mile paved tracks, 4 on Superspeedways and a Hill Climb. The following year, 5 road courses races came off four were added, 2 Miles came off the schedule, 2 Superspeedways came off the schedule. All because they didn't make money enough to stay on. One of the Supers was MIS.

Today's fan wants to go to the races to see the races not pieces of it. Just the way it is and the 1.5 gives them speed and the ability to see everything.

Some of us, do not care but for every new fan produced daily by NASCAR, the fewer and fewer that accept Road Racing. Too bad.


(NO REFERENCE, IMPLIED OR REAL TO ANY POSTER, LIVING, DEAD, or NOT YET BORN.)

[coogmaster]

I feel like we are getting away from the intended discussion of this thread. Anyway, here is my 2 cents:

Now you guys are going to call me nuts, but I think, in order to achieve the most diverse schedule possible....

Run 'em on dirt!!

What you would have is 20-25 races per year, with maybe a 60-40 of road/street and ovals.. and then for 2 or 3 races out of the year, put the drivers in Championship dirt cars with all of their familiar sponsorship and teams. Then turn 'em loose at the mile dirt tracks of Springfield or the Indy fairgrounds. THAT would be a true test of driver ability.

I'd like to see Patrick try to run the coushin at Springfield in a Silver Crown car. THAT would be an interesting sight to see.

As long as we are on the topic...Of all the drivers in IndyCar today, who do you think could run on dirt?? I say Kanaan of course, Dixon could do it, and Carpenter and Vitor I think have that 'balls out racing' mentallity and would be able to do it as well. Of the transition guys, I'd say that Viso could drive a Championship dirt car pretty well... it would be cool to see.

They did it in the old days (Running IndyCars and Dirt cars for the same points championship) why not do it today???

[!!WALDO!!]

I feel like we are getting away from the intended discussion of this thread. Anyway, here is my 2 cents:

Now you guys are going to call me nuts, but I think, in order to achieve the most diverse schedule possible....

Run 'em on dirt!!

What you would have is 20-25 races per year, with maybe a 60-40 of road/street and ovals.. and then for 2 or 3 races out of the year, put the drivers in Championship dirt cars with all of their familiar sponsorship and teams. Then turn 'em loose at the mile dirt tracks of Springfield or the Indy fairgrounds. THAT would be a true test of driver ability.

I'd like to see Patrick try to run the coushin at Springfield in a Silver Crown car. THAT would be an interesting sight to see.

As long as we are on the topic...Of all the drivers in IndyCar today, who do you think could run on dirt?? I say Kanaan of course, Dixon could do it, and Carpenter and Vitor I think have that 'balls out racing' mentallity and would be able to do it as well. Of the transition guys, I'd say that Viso could drive a Championship dirt car pretty well... it would be cool to see.

They did it in the old days (Running IndyCars and Dirt cars for the same points championship) why not do it today???

Read 1968.

Problem is, what you are talking about started the downward spiral when the left in 1971.

Today there is little cushion racing due to the tires being too wide.

(NO REFERENCE, IMPLIED OR REAL TO ANY POSTER, LIVING, DEAD, or NOT YET BORN.)

[coogmaster]

Read 1968.

Problem is, what you are talking about started the downward spiral when the left in 1971.

Today there is little cushion racing due to the tires being too wide.

(NO REFERENCE, IMPLIED OR REAL TO ANY POSTER, LIVING, DEAD, or NOT YET BORN.)

I know all about '68, I've read your post (which is really cool by the way), and my dad worked with Gary B back then for years.

I know its a long shot, but my point is that its completely doable. It might be more difficult for the smaller teams to handle the equipment transition from IndyCars to Championship dirt cars. However, if you have the big names who are in contention for the points championship, its a feasable market.

I think the problem would be driver complaints about it being to difficult, which is probably why they would never do it.

[!!WALDO!!]

I know all about '68, I've read your post (which is really cool by the way), and my dad worked with Gary B back then for years.

I know its a long shot, but my point is that its completely doable. It might be more difficult for the smaller teams to handle the equipment transition from IndyCars to Championship dirt cars. However, if you have the big names who are in contention for the points championship, its a feasable market.

I think the problem would be driver complaints about it being to difficult, which is probably why they would never do it.

I TOTALLY AGREE!

15 Road Course
15 Oval
15 Dirt
15 Short Track
3 500s

Each is it own series. All count for the National Championship.

(NO REFERENCE, IMPLIED OR REAL TO ANY POSTER, LIVING, DEAD, or NOT YET BORN.)

[coogmaster]

I TOTALLY AGREE!

15 Road Course
15 Oval
15 Dirt
15 Short Track
3 500s

Each is it own series. All count for the National Championship.

(NO REFERENCE, IMPLIED OR REAL TO ANY POSTER, LIVING, DEAD, or NOT YET BORN.)

And naturally whichever driver races the most in each respective series throughout the year will accumulate the most points, and win the National Championship. A true test of driver endurance, skill, and love for the sport.

How cool would it be to see some of the drivers from the 500 race in the Hoosier Hundred the night before Indy like they used to?

The 500s should pay more points too, since they would be the 'crown jewels' of the National Championship. And some road races should pay more points as well, like Elkhart and Long Beach.

Let's call TG's office tomorrow with this idea, Waldo. We may be onto something.

[dataman1]

Coog & Waldo,

I think you guys are onto something that fans would buy into.

Define Oval versus Short Track versus Speedway (assuming 500's are ran on these) and you really have something IMO.

[xtlm]

+ 15 street course

[coogmaster]

Coog & Waldo,

I think you guys are onto something that fans would buy into.

Define Oval versus Short Track versus Speedway (assuming 500's are ran on these) and you really have something IMO.

Since Waldo posted that portion, I can't really speak for him, but here's what I think:

Short track is anything 1 mile or less. (~200 mile races)
Oval is anything over a mile and under two.(~300 mile races)
Speedway would be 2 miles or over (400 or 500 milers)

and then Road and Street courses.

and of course, the dirt tracks, which would probably be 1 milers. (Indy Fairgrounds and Springfield)

and if we were REALLY ambitious, we could throw some other tracks on there like Terre Haute and Eldora, but I'm not sure if Champsionship dirt cars run at those tracks, maybe only sprint cars?

[DavePI2]

I like indyracfan's plan of 60% ovals ,40% road/street. AOWR does have a history of being dominated by ovals. That is certainly what I remember growing up and I am 53. Plus like it or not the casual viewer that will be tuning in will probably rather watch ovals. I am not saying we should compromise like nascar and forget about the real fans like they have just to get numbers. What I am saying is we should remember our roots and also what will atract new viewers both. That being said I personally love road course racing. My favorite race has always been cleveland and my favorite track has always been midohio. I love ovals too though, Indy , Michigan, and Kentucky are all places I have watched great races at.(Kentucky fan hospitality is terrible though). So a nice mix of 60/40 seems reasonable. There is no way we will have a 50/50 split. I just don't think the powers that be will allow that. So that being said back to the old argument , which should stay and which should go.Also what new races will be added. Well we have argued that one in numerous threads so I will leave it to them. Just keep midohio and bring back cleveland please, that is all I ask. Oh I am enjoying this season very very much.

david

[!!WALDO!!]

Current Indy cars:
15 Oval Races: PIR, Nashville, Iowa, Milwaukee, Rockingham, New Hampshire, Gateway. 7 races---1 miles to less than 1.5.
Homestead, Texas, Las Vegas, Kansas, Chicagoland, Michigan, Atlanta, Kentucky.
8 races 1.5 mile or larger.
15 Road Races: Sebring, Mid-Ohio, Birmingham, Watkins Glen, Sonoma, St Jovite, Portland, Mexico City. 8 races.
Long Beach, St Petersburg, Cleveland, Toronto, Edmonton, Denver, Surfer’s 7 races.
Trick is two separate series with driver not running both. Same car/same engine but two different series. In side each is separate championships so 4 internal championship plus 2 class championships, (Oval and Road) plus an Indy Car Championship.
CHAMP CARS:
15 Ovals Dirt: ISF, CSF, Syracuse, Springfield, DuQuoin, Del Mar, Hawthorne Park.
7 races---1 mile
Hartford, MI, Eldora, Terre Haute, Knoxville, WVMS, Dirt Track at Charlotte, Dirt Track at Texas, Manzanita. 8 races.—Short track dirt.
15 Pavement: Bristol, Richmond, Memphis, Milwaukee, Iowa, Kaukauna, IRP, Salem 8 races, Short track, Mile or less.
Super Speedway: Nashville, Gateway, Texas, Kansas, Chicagoland, Atlanta, Kentucky.
7 races More than a Mile.
These would be front engine cars, 2007 USAC Spec, with the same engines as the IRL would use. Again the trick is two separate series with driver not running both. Same car/same engine but two different series. In side each is separate championships so 4 internal championship plus 2 class championships, (Dirt and Pavement) plus a Champ Car Championship.
National Champ Car 4 Crown: 200 Miles
NHIS, Hoosier 200, Irwindale, Belleville.
Longer distance races and this is done so the best of the best will be seen. Maximum number of races per team, 19.
The 500 Series:
Indy, Fontana and Elkhart Lake.
Open to everyone but in Indy Car Spec. A separate championship and heavy purses.
Maximum number of races is 18.
Expected cost is $220,000,000 per season or 4 times current.

(NO REFERENCE, IMPLIED OR REAL TO ANY POSTER, LIVING, DEAD, or NOT YET BORN.)