If you can't trust your goverment, trust God?

[Eki]

It looks that those who can't trust their government tend to trust God more:

http://www.gadling.com/2007/08/23/least-religious-countries/


Least Religious Countries

by Iva Skoch Aug 23rd 2007 @ 12:15PM

When you travel to Europe, don't be surprised to find that many Europeans don't believe in God. I have even witnessed some alcohol-infused conversations between Americans and Europeans that almost ended in fistfights over His/Her existence. When you travel to the following countries, you might want to pick a less controversial topic of conversation ... umm, maybe George W?

Here are the Top 10 least religious countries in the world:

1. Sweden (up to 85% non-believer, atheist, agnostic)
2. Vietnam
3. Denmark
4. Norway
5. Japan
6. Czech Republic
7. Finland
8. France
9. South Korea
10. Estonia (up to 49% non-believer, atheist, agnostic)

The one that surprised me was Israel, ranking 19th, with up to 37% claiming to be non-believer, atheist, agnostic. Compare that with the United States, ranking 44th, with 3-9% non-believers, atheists, agnostics. (I think I have met them all on the streets of New York City, too.)

The survey concluded that "high levels of organic atheism are strongly correlated with high levels of societal health, such as low homicide rates, low poverty rates, low infant mortality rates, and low illiteracy rates, as well as high levels of educational attainment, per capita income, and gender equality. Most nations characterized by high degrees of individual and societal security have the highest rates of organic atheism, and conversely, nations characterized by low degrees of individual and societal security have the lowest rates of organic atheism. In some societies, particularly Europe, atheism is growing. However, throughout much of the world -- particularly nations with high birth rates -- atheism is barely discernable."

[leopard]

I feel sorry for this.

I believe my two years daughter, and in God.

[Garry Walker]

How can you believe in something that has never been proven to exist?

[Mark]

I'm surprised that France ranks higher than the UK (where is the UK? The link to the survey is broken).

We think of it as being a catholic country and so quite religious. Have to say that for most people in the UK religion does not play a large part in our daily lives. Unless you're in Northern Ireland mind :s

[Mark]

I feel sorry for this.

I believe my two years daughter, and in God.

Your daughter does not exist, and God does. I'm sure it's something like that :p

[leopard]

How can you believe in something that has never been proven to exist?
Have you ever seen the face of windstorm? :)

[leopard]

The one that surprised me was Israel, ranking 19th, with up to 37% claiming to be non-believer, atheist, agnostic.
Good believer wouldn't hurt others :)

[Roy]

How can you believe in something that has never been proven to exist?

Not proven? Haha. Why wouldn't some people see it is true?

[Garry Walker]

Not proven? Haha. Why wouldn't some people see it is true?

Well, prove it is true then. Prove the existence of god to me.

[leopard]

Not proven? Haha. Why would some people don't see it is true?
Are you sure, where did you see him? ;)

[Roy]

Are you sure, where did you see him? ;)

First: what you say you can't see a face in a wind. Bu t you can hear it and feel it. Yes HEAR. I heard the voice of God. If you think thats mad look at the big picture and history. Look at the Bible and life, dead and resurrection of Jesus. The are so many evidence. History and so.

If you sure Napoleon and Emperor Titus did exist you can also say Jesus is the son of God and Jesus his son.

[leopard]

:) :)

[leopard]

First: what you say you can't see a face in a wind.
I can't see the wind, but I see storm is online now :) ;)

[Roy]

I can't see the wind, but I see storm is online now :) ;)

:up: ;)

[leopard]

:up: ;)
Are you with me now ;) ;)

Are you with me now ;) ;)

:up: :D

[leopard]

Are you with me now

Who posted this ! :) :p

[ioan]

How can you believe in something that has never been proven to exist?

There's a problem, we agree again! ;)

[Rudy Tamasz]

Well, prove it is true then. Prove the existence of god to me.

We are not talking science here, it is whether you believe or not.

And then there are things, for instance, in F1 that everybody knows they exist but it is next to impossible to prove they do. ;)

[Roy]

We are not talking science here, it is whether you believe or not.

And then there are things, for instance, in F1 that everybody knows they exist but it is next to impossible to prove they do. ;)

It is not alone believe, there is alt of evidence about God. Off course depends on what God you mean. There is a lot of historical evidence of God of the bible. Why can't /doesn't want/ don't some of you believe that? I am curious.

[MrJan]

I'm surprised that France ranks higher than the UK (where is the UK? The link to the survey is broken).

We think of it as being a catholic country and so quite religious. Have to say that for most people in the UK religion does not play a large part in our daily lives. Unless you're in Northern Ireland mind :s

I think that a lot of people in the UK use religion as a throwaway comment, especially on sureveys. When they are filling in forms and it says religion they put Christian when in reality they are probably atheist.

[Dave B]

The Bible itself is based on stories passed down through generations, and in the case of the Old Testament told long after the events it purports to depict. If you think that that's in any way "evidence" then you really don't understand the meaning of the word.

I can easily understand how, in the absence of any better knowledge, people seeking to explain the mysteries of the universe came up with the concept of a creator, but it baffles me why as we find out the real answers people cling on to these outmoded beliefs. Still, each to their own, if people would rather live in ignorance that's their lookout.

[Drew]

Fighting over religion is like fighting over who has the best imaginary friend.

Anyway, I don't believe in god or anything and I don't trust the government :p :

[Mark]

I had an imaginary friend but Drew killed him. Now my imaginary bodyguard is out for revenge.

[ioan]

The Bible itself is based on stories passed down through generations, and in the case of the Old Testament told long after the events it purports to depict. If you think that that's in any way "evidence" then you really don't understand the meaning of the word.

I can easily understand how, in the absence of any better knowledge, people seeking to explain the mysteries of the universe came up with the concept of a creator, but it baffles me why as we find out the real answers people cling on to these outmoded beliefs. Still, each to their own, if people would rather live in ignorance that's their lookout.

Fully agree with this POV.

[Roy]

The Bible itself is based on stories passed down through generations, and in the case of the Old Testament told long after the events it purports to depict. If you think that that's in any way "evidence" then you really don't understand the meaning of the word.

The old testament is based on stories passed down trough generations (the first 5 books). The other are write down in the time when it plays around or some FEWS years later.
The evidence is that prophesies are mostly come true. prophesies about the tribe of Israel and other countries around. Even stories about the Messiah who are told many years before Jesus comes are true. Now evidence.

For New Testament is more historical evidence then for most of the stories of the ancient times. The first books are written down 60 years after Jesus time on earth.



I can easily understand how, in the absence of any better knowledge, people seeking to explain the mysteries of the universe came up with the concept of a creator, but it baffles me why as we find out the real answers people cling on to these outmoded beliefs. Still, each to their own, if people would rather live in ignorance that's their lookout.

Faith is not the thing to understand the knowledge. Is the knowledge who GIVE the knowledge.

[Dave B]

I can't win an arguement with someone who believes strongly in religion, nor do I seek to. If you choose to put your faith in a god then that's your personal business - I just happen to disagree.

[jim mcglinchey]

[quote="Dave Brockman"]as we find out the real answers people cling on to these outmoded beliefs

I watch and read alot of Science and it seems that we are no nearer to answering the really basic questions than we were 100 years ago. The deeper science delves into trying to find a unified theory for example, the deeper the mystery becomes and some would argue that that was evidence for Gods existance.

[Mark]

There are some scientists who subscribe to that kind of thing. Like there is a god just not exactly in the way laid down in the bible.

[BDunnell]

I for one look forward to the day when it is deemed acceptable by a serious Presidential or Prime Ministerial candidate in the US or UK to state categorically that he/she is an atheist. At present, though, it's almost as if they have to be religious, yet often refuse to talk about it (like Blair's press secretary telling reporters 'We don't do God'.)

[Sleeper]

How can you believe in something that has never been proven to exist?
I think you've completely mist the point of faith here, you dont need proof to believe in it.

For the record, I'm agnostic, the existence, or lack of, of a god doesnt mean diddly to me and the answer wouldnt make one iota of difference to my life.

As to the thread title, I dont trust the government or organised religion, so where does that leave me?

[Roy]

I can't win an arguement with someone who believes strongly in religion, nor do I seek to. If you choose to put your faith in a god then that's your personal business - I just happen to disagree.

You wake up this day with an idea that there is no proof of God. Today you go to bed with in your mind our discussion. There is more proof of God then you thought.

Maybe you do a little prayer and now you know it is not your pillow you talk to. ;)

[Eki]

There are some scientists who subscribe to that kind of thing. Like there is a god just not exactly in the way laid down in the bible.
I'm a bit like that. I think that God is a good candidate to explain things humans can't explain at the moment, but IMO the concept of God should evolve together with people and knowledge evolving and not remain the same as it was 2000 years ago.

[BDunnell]

You wake up this day with an idea that there is no proof of God. Today you go to bed with in your mind our discussion. There is more proof of God then you thought.

In what sense does thinking of this discussion offer more proof of God than Dave thought? That's rather like saying that thinking about the old debates as to whether the earth was flat provides some proof that it might be flat. Would you agree with that as well?

[MrJan]

I had some people come round to my house trying to get my views on God and get me to change them (right because if there is a God then advertisment is the key)

Anyway they asked me what I believed the purpose of life was to which I replied that I didn't believe there was one, afterall what is a dog's purpose? Apparently a dog's purpose in life is to make humans happy, surely God wouldn't be all about the humans but all creatures as equals?

Anyway I find the discussion interesting and, like Roy, do not see why people refuse so much to accept the other persons view. To be honest there is no proof either way (I've heard stories from people that happened last week but they get the facts wrong so forgive me if I don't trust the bible) and if you believe or not comes down to whether you can accept that life is a coincidence with no meaning or NEED to believe that it was all created by some higher being.

And just like Homer Simpson I'll repent like hell later for the bad things I've done in my life, isn't forgiveness fantastic :D

[Eki]

Anyway they asked me what I believed the purpose of life was to which I replied that I didn't believe there was one, afterall what is a dog's purpose? Apparently a dog's purpose in life is to make humans happy, surely God wouldn't be all about the humans but all creatures as equals?

Or maybe humans' purpose is to make dogs happy? Some humans aren't fulfilling their purpose very well.

[TOgoFASTER]

There are some scientists who subscribe to that kind of thing. Like there is a god just not exactly in the way laid down in the bible.

Spirituality vs the rigid set regulations of a said religion.
It took a few religions more than a few centuries to accept the earth was not flat and the center of the universe as for their religious writings.

[Roy]

In what sense does thinking of this discussion offer more proof of God than Dave thought? That's rather like saying that thinking about the old debates as to whether the earth was flat provides some proof that it might be flat. Would you agree with that as well?

Our discussion was about (historical) facts of the bible. It say a lot about a proof of God.

About the flat earth: Nobody believes in a flat earth in the middle ages. It was not in the Bible, not the Church say it was. It where the 'thinkers' in the 19th century who want to say the church is foolish and dumb. They wrote in essay's the church was thinking of that. Nonsense.

The same at Galileo Galilei. The mainstream philosophy in his time was like what Plato and Aristotoles say before: The earth is in the middle of the universe. The sun and stars turn around the earth. That was the mainstream in science.
The most of scientist in church are on the side of Galileo. He was opposite from the secularise people. The problems for Galileo starts when he criticism the pope. The pope was believer of the mainstream thought: Aristotles view.

If you look at the facts the people who believe in the bible they are not so grazy if you thought until know. That is my point. Now you know a little bit more about the facts.

[MrJan]

Facts in the bible? Which part the man walking on water or when he came back from the dead? Maybe it was the talking snake bit.

As far as I'm concerned the bible is an exaggerated bunch of stories which is now being followed aimlessly. In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth, when did he do Mars, 2 weeks later?

If people want to believe then I'm happy for them to do that but I'd just rather not know about it. No amount of persuading will make me change my view and it actually irritates me that people would try to do so or have a belief that they will live in some fantastic afterlife because they believe in a higher being, especially as the ones that you know about (the smarmy ones) usually have a smirk on their face that suggests that they think that they are better in some way.

Can't be doing with religion, it causes far too much pain and suffering.

[TOgoFASTER]

Crom!

[BDunnell]

Our discussion was about (historical) facts of the bible. It say a lot about a proof of God.

About the flat earth: Nobody believes in a flat earth in the middle ages. It was not in the Bible, not the Church say it was. It where the 'thinkers' in the 19th century who want to say the church is foolish and dumb. They wrote in essay's the church was thinking of that. Nonsense.

The same at Galileo Galilei. The mainstream philosophy in his time was like what Plato and Aristotoles say before: The earth is in the middle of the universe. The sun and stars turn around the earth. That was the mainstream in science.
The most of scientist in church are on the side of Galileo. He was opposite from the secularise people. The problems for Galileo starts when he criticism the pope. The pope was believer of the mainstream thought: Aristotles view.

If you look at the facts the people who believe in the bible they are not so grazy if you thought until know. That is my point. Now you know a little bit more about the facts.

I think you misunderstand. You seemed to suggest to Dave that the fact that he might think about this discussion is in some way evidence of the existence of God. I only mentioned the belief in a flat earth in that context, and wasn't suggesting any link between that and religious beliefs.

You suggest that 'looking at the facts' will help. Well, the facts as laid down in the Bible suggest that Jesus turned water unto wine. By any scientific standards, this is impossible. Some, especially in more modern times, choose to view this as a parable and don't suggest that it actually happened as written down. However, there are still plenty who take the accounts of such impossible events as stated in the Bible as gospel. Where do you stand?

[Roy]

....

Anyway I find the discussion interesting and, like Roy, do not see why people refuse so much to accept the other persons view. To be honest there is no proof either way (I've heard stories from people that happened last week but they get the facts wrong so forgive me if I don't trust the bible) and if you believe or not comes down to whether you can accept that life is a coincidence with no meaning or NEED to believe that it was all created by some higher being.

First thing is important. It looks like people (maybe me too) don't accept you're not a believer. It is not mine goal to be win new souls and it is plus on my heavenly account or something. ;)
It is the love who makes me 'grazy' about God, bible, Jesus and you. You are a flag and a neme for me on the forum. But I know there is a human being besides. And God loves people. That is the whole reason and purpose he made us. He wants a relation with us. That is the reason I want to tell it everybody. I don't keep it for myself. This is wonderfull news!

My purpose for my life is: I am prepared to give the reason for the hope that I have. I hope I do it gentless and with respect. Sorry it looks like I don't accept your idea of religion or something.



And just like Homer Simpson I'll repent like hell later for the bad things I've done in my life, isn't forgiveness fantastic :D
:D

Forgiveness is basic part of the bible. It has to do with love and equal. And if you can say the whole bible in one word it is love. God loves us and want a relation with us. So God forgive us what we did against him. If that is'nt love I don't know anymore.


The things in the bible are real. Several facts can say that. One I give you now before I go sleep: Because the New testament is so early written after the things are happen the people who has seen Jesus could be say these miracles are nonsense. But nothing is found. The people in his years know it was true.
Even a Roman historic writer write about a person who did miracles. He write about Jesus.
But you can all the facts throw away. You can say I did want believe. Ok, but be honest to yourself.

[veeten]

Good night. :)

:z :s nore:

[MrJan]

First thing is important. It looks like people (maybe me too) don't accept you're not a believer. It is not mine goal to be win new souls and it is plus on my heavenly account or something. ;)
It is the love who makes me 'grazy' about God, bible, Jesus and you. You are a flag and a neme for me on the forum. But I know there is a human being besides. And God loves people. That is the whole reason and purpose he made us. He wants a relation with us. That is the reason I want to tell it everybody. I don't keep it for myself. This is wonderfull news!

My purpose for my life is: I am prepared to give the reason for the hope that I have. I hope I do it gentless and with respect. Sorry it looks like I don't accept your idea of religion or something.


:D

Forgiveness is basic part of the bible. It has to do with love and equal. And if you can say the whole bible in one word it is love. God loves us and want a relation with us. So God forgive us what we did against him. If that is'nt love I don't know anymore.


I never said that I don't like the principle of the bible, to love one each other and all of that crap. The thing is that why should I need to believe in some mythical being just to like people? God obviously doesn't want a relationship with us (on the principle that he/she exists) because else he'd go and watch Exeter City with me or go down the pub. And don't both with the 'God is everywhere' story because where was he when a driver had an accident last weekend (after drinking) and killed two children aged 8 and 10? Were they being punished for something that they did in their short lives? I think not.

I don't need an 'excuse' to be nice to people, I don't need the threat of never ending pain to make me love my family or enjoy my life. But most of all I don't need people telling me that I should believe in God for no reason beyond being good in life and a book that is hundreds of years old.

[Hawkmoon]

If there is a "God", it stands to reason that there could in fact be "gods". So maybe the Indians, Norse, Romans and ancient Greeks had it right? Afterall, is there any real difference between the Bible and ancient mythology? We accept mythology as mere stories yet we are supposed to accept the Bible as a source of fact?

If you can accept that Jesus did miracles then you can also accept that a giant wolf ate the sun or that the stars are just pin pricks in the veil of night or that men stole fire from the gods. It stands to reason, you'd have to agree, since all are merely a question of faith?

The thing that puzzles me is not that people believe in a god, but rather that people believe in what they describe as "God's Will". Are you trying to tell me that you are OK with all the ****ty things that happen to good people because your god willed it? Either that or this "god" was either too callous or impotent to do anything about it.

Either way, I struggle to see the foundation of a "faith in God" in the world around us.

[Valve Bounce]

Facts in the bible? Which part the man walking on water or when he came back from the dead? Maybe it was the talking snake bit.

As far as I'm concerned the bible is an exaggerated bunch of stories which is now being followed aimlessly. In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth, when did he do Mars, 2 weeks later?



Much of the Old Testament was written by people under the influence of hallucinogenic toadstools. However, people should never, ever discard the Old Testament as it makes great reading. Better than Grimm, for sure. You can go from Aliens to people who used foreskins as money. Bernie would have been proud. And lotsa orgies that would warm the cockles of Max.

Now, going back to Eki's list, I think Nepal's status needs clarification because they just kicked their God out.

[leopard]

Good night. :)

:z :s nore:
God bless you :)

[Rudy Tamasz]

Would you folks fancy returning to the topic of the discussion ;) which is correlation between the degree of well-being and religion (more prosperous countries less religious)?

I, for one, think that prosperity does not necessarily releases the best sides of human nature, sometimes quite the opposite is true. It's like you are forty and something, got you career and money but you are getting older and want to prove yourself that you are still cool and macho. You meet a nice twentyandsomething blonde fall for her and ditch your wife. It doesn't matter that she happens to be the mom of your kids and supported you throughout your career. Who cares? She's no longer in shape and not too sexy. So you leave her and never remembers she exists. These days God just happens to be in the position of that old wife. Forgotten, but alive and existing.

Isn't Sweden the least religious country because they have too many loose blondes in bikinis?

[Roy]

Isn't Sweden the least religious country because they have too many loose blondes in bikinis?

Is it not because all these nice blonds the Swedes thank God for the beautiful thinks He made ;)

[Valve Bounce]

Would you folks fancy returning to the topic of the discussion ;) which is correlation between the degree of well-being and religion (more prosperous countries less religious)?

I, for one, think that prosperity does not necessarily releases the best sides of human nature, sometimes quite the opposite is true. It's like you are forty and something, got you career and money but you are getting older and want to prove yourself that you are still cool and macho. You meet a nice twentyandsomething blonde fall for her and ditch your wife. It doesn't matter that she happens to be the mom of your kids and supported you throughout your career. Who cares? She's no longer in shape and not too sexy. So you leave her and never remembers she exists. These days God just happens to be in the position of that old wife. Forgotten, but alive and existing.

Isn't Sweden the least religious country because they have too many loose blondes in bikinis?

Actually, Murdoch dumped his blond wife and married a Chinese bimbo. And if you do not believe that Mao is/was a God, then it is arguable that the Chinese are not that religious these days. It's all got to do with evolution and revolution : you shoot enough religious guys, the rest prefer not to believe in God (except where the power comes from the barrel of a gun).

[leopard]

To explain the most prosperous less religious theory, it is simply because the good believers would be happy if they can share their wealth with those need the help, while the less religious wouldn't really care others, the most important is to enrich themselves for their own well-being life.

People who are in poorness would easily remember God, on the other hand those are in prosperity would easily to forget Him. Being rich is a worse hardship. ;)

[Dave B]

You wake up this day with an idea that there is no proof of God. Today you go to bed with in your mind our discussion. There is more proof of God then you thought.

Maybe you do a little prayer and now you know it is not your pillow you talk to. ;)
I can report that I went to bed thinking not of God, but of the delicious mixed grill I'd just barbequed and the rather fine bottle of wine which accompanied it.

Now tell me that God created the cows from which my steak came, and that my wine was formerly tapwater until Jesus started meddling. Go on, you know you want to :p

[Roy]

I can report that I went to bed thinking not of God, but of the delicious mixed grill I'd just barbequed and the rather fine bottle of wine which accompanied it.

Now tell me that God created the cows from which my steak came, and that my wine was formerly tapwater until Jesus started meddling. Go on, you know you want to :p

I love the beef with legs who God has given to us ;)

[Breeze]

How can you believe in something that has never been proven to exist?
Because that's all you can do. You cannot 'prove' something for which no evidence exists, therefore you can only 'believe', or as some put it, have faith.

And incidentally, atheism is not a belief system, its just NOT making a particular mistake.

[Mark]

I think there is a difference between beliving there is no god and not having any beliefs at all.

[Valve Bounce]

. Being rich is a worse hardship. ;)

PLease God!! let me endure that hardship. :(

[leopard]

PLease God!! let me endure that hardship. :(
Bad prayer is not answered! :)

[Mark]

http://www.theregister.co.uk/2008/06/12/god_boffins/

God makes you stupid, researchers claim

A psychology researcher has controversially claimed that stupidity is causally linked to how likely people are to believe in God.
University of Ulster professor Richard Lynn will draw the conclusion in new research due to be published in the journal Intelligence, the Times Higher Education Supplement reports (http://www.timeshighereducation.co.uk/story.asp?sectioncode=26&storycode=402381&c=2).
document.write('\x3Cscript src="http://ad.uk.doubleclick.net/adj/reg.science.4159/front;cta='+cta+';ctb='+ctb+';ctc='+ctc+';sc='+sc+ ';cid='+cid+';'+RegExCats+GetVCs()+'pid='+RegId+Re gDT+';'+RegKW+'maid='+maid+';test='+test+';pf='+Re gPF+';dcove=d;sz=336x280;tile=3;ord=' + rand + '?" type="text/javascript">\x3C\/script>');
Lynn and his two co-authors argue that average IQ is an excellent predictor of what proportion of the population are true believers, across 137 countries. They also cite surveys of the US Academy of Sciences and UK Royal Academy showing single-digit rates of religious belief among academics.

That professional skeptics don't believe in a creator is perhaps not all that surprising. Lynn argues, however, that it is their intelligence that directly gives rise to the boffinated classes' non-God-bothering tendencies. He said: "Why should fewer academics believe in God than the general population? I believe it is simply a matter of the IQ. Academics have higher IQs than the general population."

Lynn pointed out that most children do believe in God, but as their intelligence develops they tend to have doubts or reject religion. Similarly, as average IQ in Western societies increased throught the 20th century, so did rates of atheism, he said.

The researchers' claims of a direct causal link have drawn criticism from others in intelligence research, who argue their conclusions are too simplistic. London Metropolitan University's Dr David Hardman said: "It is very difficult to conduct true experiments that would explicate a causal relationship between IQ and religious belief. Nonetheless, there is evidence from other domains that higher levels of intelligence are associated with a greater ability - or perhaps willingness - to question and overturn strongly felt intuitions."
Next week: exclusive Reg research reveals the link between obesity and love of cake. ®

[Mark]

http://www.theregister.co.uk/2008/06/12/god_boffins/

A psychology researcher has controversially claimed that stupidity is causally linked to how likely people are to believe in God.
University of Ulster professor Richard Lynn will draw the conclusion in new research due to be published in the journal Intelligence, the Times Higher Education Supplement reports.

Lynn and his two co-authors argue that average IQ is an excellent predictor of what proportion of the population are true believers, across 137 countries. They also cite surveys of the US Academy of Sciences and UK Royal Academy showing single-digit rates of religious belief among academics.

That professional skeptics don't believe in a creator is perhaps not all that surprising. Lynn argues, however, that it is their intelligence that directly gives rise to the boffinated classes' non-God-bothering tendencies. He said: "Why should fewer academics believe in God than the general population? I believe it is simply a matter of the IQ. Academics have higher IQs than the general population."

Lynn pointed out that most children do believe in God, but as their intelligence develops they tend to have doubts or reject religion. Similarly, as average IQ in Western societies increased throught the 20th century, so did rates of atheism, he said.

The researchers' claims of a direct causal link have drawn criticism from others in intelligence research, who argue their conclusions are too simplistic. London Metropolitan University's Dr David Hardman said: "It is very difficult to conduct true experiments that would explicate a causal relationship between IQ and religious belief. Nonetheless, there is evidence from other domains that higher levels of intelligence are associated with a greater ability - or perhaps willingness - to question and overturn strongly felt intuitions."
Next week: exclusive Reg research reveals the link between obesity and love of cake. ®

[Roy]

This research is very bad. The premise is also the result. This is very dumb.
They think like this: are they so stupid, or I am so smart? :D

[Breeze]

http://www.theregister.co.uk/2008/06/12/god_boffins/
The researchers' claims of a direct causal link (between IQ and atheism) have drawn criticism from others in intelligence research, who argue their conclusions are too simplistic. London Metropolitan University's Dr David Hardman said: "It is very difficult to conduct true experiments that would explicate a causal relationship between IQ and religious belief. Nonetheless, there is evidence from other domains that higher levels of intelligence are associated with a greater ability - or perhaps willingness - to question and overturn strongly felt intuitions."
Next week: exclusive Reg research reveals the link between obesity and love of cake. ®

:rotflmao: :rotflmao:

[Breeze]

I think there is a difference between beliving there is no god and not having any beliefs at all.
Of course there is. But if you were responding to my post, that's not what I said.

[schmenke]

Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy.

[Sleeper]

Because that's all you can do. You cannot 'prove' something for which no evidence exists, therefore you can only 'believe', or as some put it, have faith.

And incidentally, atheism is not a belief system, its just NOT making a particular mistake.
Atheism may not be a belief system, but it is a belief. Saying you do not believe in God is just as strong a theological position as saying you do believe in God, whereas being an agnostic means the only choice you have made is to neither believe in God nor believe that God doesnt exist. If you consider belief in God to be a mistake, then not believing in God must also be a mistake, because neither choice can be made on any concrete evidence.

[Breeze]

Atheism may not be a belief system, but it is a belief.
You may be able to quote Merriam's, Oxford English, Cambridge, Webster's et. al. with their definitions, but in reality atheism is not in itself a belief. Etymologically it means godless. Short and to the point. In the sense that atheism comes from a "belief" that a claim which has no rational evidence to support it should be rejected outright on grounds of being arbitrary, then I'll grant you your statement on grounds of semantics. I'm a lot more comfortable with the term "certainty" in substitution of "belief" in this context.


Saying you do not believe in God is just as strong a theological position as saying you do believe in God,
Substitute the term "metaphysical" for "theological" and I'm with you. Otherwise your sentence is self contradictory.


whereas being an agnostic means the only choice you have made is to neither believe in God nor believe that God doesnt exist.
Sorry to keep parcing, but it also means you have chosen NOT to reject arbitrary assertions. This can leave you pretty vulnerable, philosophically.


If you consider belief in God to be a mistake, then not believing in God must also be a mistake, because neither choice can be made on any concrete evidence.
The burden of proof rests on he who asserts a proposition. For me, an atheist, arbitrary claims are rejected as unworthy of consideration let alone refutation.

And one more thing, back on topic. I don't trust Government either!! :laugh:

[Galveston dunes]

where as my relation with religion is or isn't present is my ball of wax.
But for the record I tend to believe in myself and the morals bestowed unto me through my mentors and parents while in my early childhood.
Believe not in your intuition but your ambition.

[jso1985]

Is it just me or do I find some atheists being as fanatical in their beliefs(that there's no god) as fundamentalists christians/muslims? :s

I believe in god and while I don't try to force other people to believe in what I believe, it really annoys me people think I'm stupid because they don't believe in god.
Honestly some of you guys are as intolerant as a fundamenatist nutter

[Hawkmoon]

Is it just me or do I find some atheists being as fanatical in their beliefs(that there's no god) as fundamentalists christians/muslims? :s

I believe in god and while I don't try to force other people to believe in what I believe, it really annoys me people think I'm stupid because they don't believe in god.
Honestly some of you guys are as intolerant as a fundamenatist nutter

I think you're right to a point but I think there's a difference between a religious fundamentalist and an athetical fundamentalist (I think I just coined a phrase).

How many athiests go around knocking on doors trying to get people to drop their belief in a god? Worse still, how many athiests go around blowing people up because they believe in a god?

So whilst I think you're right that athiests can be just as vehement in their arguments as religious folk, I know which one I'd rather meet.

[jso1985]

surely I don't expect we will ever see atheists fundamentalist terrorists.
but a christian fundamentalist has never called me "a f*ckin idiot with a mind stuck in the stupid XV century" and then giving me a 15 minute speech about how stupid whole religion stuff is while I was having a drink in a bar with a mate and I just said "oh dear god...".
so in terms of opening their mouth when not wanted both fundamentalists sides are equal with me, both are stupidilly intolerant with me... well at least christian ones doesn't call me idiot or stupid, they just pity me...

[Breeze]

surely I don't expect we will ever see atheists fundamentalist terrorists.
but a christian fundamentalist has never called me "a f*ckin idiot with a mind stuck in the stupid XV century" and then giving me a 15 minute speech about how stupid whole religion stuff is while I was having a drink in a bar with a mate and I just said "oh dear god...".
so in terms of opening their mouth when not wanted both fundamentalists sides are equal with me, both are stupidilly intolerant with me... well at least christian ones doesn't call me idiot or stupid, they just pity me...
WOW! until I read this I thought you were talking about me in your previous post! ;) when you wrote this:


Is it just me or do I find some atheists being as fanatical in their beliefs(that there's no god) as fundamentalists christians/muslims?


And guess what? I find true atheists, those without a shred of agnosticism, even MORE "fanatical". Of course we would define our position as being the absence of belief, and ourselves as more "certain" of the correctness of our position. ;) But whatever you do, please don't confuse a willingness to discuss and define our atheism as equivalent to religious fanaticism.

And to any others her who might think that I PERSONALLY think those who believe are stupid, that's only true if you're actually stupid, not just because you belive in God. :p For the record, I've met many VERY intelligent people who believe in God. I know of a some historical figures who, I'm certain, are MUCH, MUCH smarter than me and believe in God.

[SOD]

Are we near 100 years of Christian fundamentalism?

[Eki]

surely I don't expect we will ever see atheists fundamentalist terrorists.

I thought even South America had some communist terrorists/freedom fighters (pick your choice) who were atheists. In theory communists should be atheists, but in practice all communists aren't atheists just like all atheists are not communists.

[donKey jote]

Donkey's don't need no gods to answer any big questions or to give their lives a meaning, comfort, a purpose or a direction ;)
I believe in Man, and that "God" only exists in the minds of the believers :)

Bit like Pratchett's "Small Gods" :laugh:
(thanks to carlmetro for the tip in the book thread a few years back :up: )

http://smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/16/16_3_166.gif

[Garry Walker]

I think you've completely mist the point of faith here, you dont need proof to believe in it.

I have missed nothing, I just believing on something that has never been shown to exist, completely idiotic.

If I said I have faith in green men from the sun will make me the king of universe, I would be viewed as a moron. Believing in god, as I see it, is just about equally insane.


http://www.theregister.co.uk/2008/06/12/god_boffins/

:up:
I cannot but agree 100% with their analysis.


If you consider belief in God to be a mistake, then not believing in God must also be a mistake, because neither choice can be made on any concrete evidence.

Not comparable at all.
There has never been shown any proof that god exists, therefor not believing in it is not a mistake, it is only logical.
Otherwise we would reach absurd conclusions



http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/jim_meritt/bible-contradictions.html#contradictions

:D :D :D

[Sleeper]

Not comparable at all.
There has never been shown any proof that god exists, therefor not believing in it is not a mistake, it is only logical.
Otherwise we would reach absurd conclusions



http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/jim_meritt/bible-contradictions.html#contradictions

:D :D :D

Flawed argument, there has been no proof to show that God doesnt exist either, but that doesnt make the belief in God logical, just as it doesnt make the belief that God doesnt exist logical.

As to the link, Im very much anti-religion anyway.

[Garry Walker]

Flawed argument, there has been no proof to show that God doesnt exist either, but that doesnt make the belief in God logical, just as it doesnt make the belief that God doesnt exist logical.


You have very wrong ideas of things.
how can you disprove the existence of something that has never been shown to exist? :rolleyes:
The lack of proof for gods existence in itself is enough already.

Actually I find it quite shocking that in this day some people, supposedly educated, still believe in something like this. Quite astonishing.

[jim mcglinchey]

Until you can explain all of the mysteries of the Universe to us, you shouldnt be so surprised that there are so many people who believe in a Creator.

[Rudy Tamasz]

Until you can explain all of the mysteries of the Universe to us...

Never gonna happen. :)

[Sleeper]

You have very wrong ideas of things.
how can you disprove the existence of something that has never been shown to exist? :rolleyes:
The lack of proof for gods existence in itself is enough already.

Actually I find it quite shocking that in this day some people, supposedly educated, still believe in something like this. Quite astonishing.
So your saying you can prove that God, or a god, doesnt exist? Go on then, show us that your not just posting usless bluster.