Nick didn't look too happy .

[Bagwan]

When Nick mentioned in the interviews that he had to follow Robert home after the team changed him to the one-stop , it showed us why he wasn't happy .
He had run longer , and so , was compromised in the quals , to get a better shot at the race .

Since he mentioned this , I am assuming he perhaps had some disagreement with going to a one-stop , and was denied the opportunity to win , or at least fight with his team-mate for the win .
He appeared , since fuelling long for quals , to be the only one of the two to have the option , but appeared upset that it was chosen .
As a result , he was forced to run half the race on options , and full tanks , so it should have been an choice that was the lesser of the two .

He had a fast car , and took second , but wasn't happy .
They also didn't seem very cordial in the interview seats either .

I don't think all is well at Beamer .

I also just read a headline something like "Kubica would accept Alonso as team-mate" .
And , Kubica is getting questions about being the "de facto" number 1 .

I think he has been from the beginning .

[ioan]

As he said it, he let Kubica through without putting up a fight, and at that moment he gave up the chance to win his first ever GP.
If he would have kept the Pole behind for a few more laps than he would have been in front after Kubica's 2nd pit stop and would have probably won the race.

I feel sorry for him, he worked hard to bring this team up, and he is the one they have to thank for all the developing work done on their cars.

[PSfan]

Well, if I heard right, Heidfeld ran 42 laps on his softer tires, so perhaps if he choose to "make life difficult" for Kubica and held him up, he might not have had the tires left to finish 2nd. Probably same reason the team told him to let Alonso by if it was costing him lap times...

[aryan]

I think you are reading a bit too much into it Bagwan.

He seemed corial enough in the press box towards Robert, and congradulated him a couple of times.

Had he kep Kubica behind, he would have cost the team valuable points, and probably cost himself his BMW seat next year.

I hope he starts matching Kubica especially in qualifying, and I hope BMW is man enough to acknowledge that Nick is part of thereason this team is so high up. Considering that Kubica started his F1 life with BMW, I would give Nick most of the credit for developing that card and the team.

Yes, I am sure BMW's money and personnel had a lot to do with it as well, but no amount of money and wind tunnel will replace proper useful feedback from drivers.

This season is all the more interesting because BMW is able to mix it with the fast boys, and I honestly believe the Kubica-Hiedfeld combination is a winning combo BMW should hold on to.

[jens]

Indeed it was a sensible move to let Kubica through, because at that point due to lighter fuel load Robert was a lot faster than Nick (~2 seconds a lap) and holding him up would have been costly for the team's chances in general. But Nick did his job fine by holding Alonso up, who finally messed it up. So Nick is a great team player. If he ups his game, his chances will come.

I doubt BMW will change its driver line-up for next year if Nick starts performing acceptably and begins running close to Robert also in qualifyings.

[Bagwan]

Indeed it was a sensible move to let Kubica through, because at that point due to lighter fuel load Robert was a lot faster than Nick (~2 seconds a lap) and holding him up would have been costly for the team's chances in general. But Nick did his job fine by holding Alonso up, who finally messed it up. So Nick is a great team player. If he ups his game, his chances will come.

I doubt BMW will change its driver line-up for next year if Nick starts performing acceptably and begins running close to Robert also in qualifyings.

He had a lighter fuel load because they changed his strategy to a one-stooper from a two-stopper .
As a result of having just one stop , he also had to run the second half with options .

He let him by because he knew he had no chance , once they changed his strategy .
Of course he had to congratulate his team-mate , or he would have looked like a real putz .
But , it looked to me like he would have liked to have been allowed to fight .

Call it veilled team orders , if you want .
I'll say it , even if Nick can't .

[wedge]

Since he mentioned this , I am assuming he perhaps had some disagreement with going to a one-stop , and was denied the opportunity to win , or at least fight with his team-mate for the win .
He appeared , since fuelling long for quals , to be the only one of the two to have the option , but appeared upset that it was chosen .
As a result , he was forced to run half the race on options , and full tanks , so it should have been an choice that was the lesser of the two .

He had a fast car , and took second , but wasn't happy.
They also didn't seem very cordial in the interview seats either.

On paper Nick should've won the race because a 1 stopper is quicker than a 2 stopper, especially with SC periods.

DC and the Toyotas got to where they were because of 1 stopping.

I think Nick is unhappy because he's been beaten by his team mate and got the win. He needed to raise his game and couldn't/

Kubica raised his game, crucially putting quick laps near the end of the second stint.

[Bagwan]

On paper Nick should've won the race because a 1 stopper is quicker than a 2 stopper, especially with SC periods.

DC and the Toyotas got to where they were because of 1 stopping.

I think Nick is unhappy because he's been beaten by his team mate and got the win. He needed to raise his game and couldn't/

Kubica raised his game, crucially putting quick laps near the end of the second stint.

A one-stopper is quicker if you can get both kinds of tires working .
Nick's had all kinds of issues with that this year .

He was rendered unable to fight back , in my opinion .

If I recall correctly , Kimi got fastest lap , but Nick was second fastest in the race , indicating he had the pace to continue his original strategy , a two-stopper .
If I have recalled correctly , why did they change the strategy at all ? We might have seen a real battle .
That's what I think Nick was not so happy about .

He denied there were team orders in the first turn , but the die was cast by then .

[Roamy]

Nick is getting punked by theissen but I can't understand why any of you are surprised at the least. Kubica is Theissen's guy and Nick is the water boy.
Don't worry you won't see alonso going over there. You might see Nick taking Piquet's seat.

it was very funny that David Hobbs thought DC was a real flyer.

[Storm]

It was as if Nick was at funeral when they were showing shots of the guys backstage before the podium ceremony.
You have to feel a bit sorry for him, he has been a solid driver, under-rated and has never driven cars capable of winning. Now he has a faster car but his team-mate is beating him on speed and he had a great chance to win his first race but it went to the younger guy...

No denying the fact that Kubica has had "future winner" stamped over him for a while now and he justified that tag.

[ioan]

A one-stopper is quicker if you can get both kinds of tires working .
Nick's had all kinds of issues with that this year .

He was rendered unable to fight back , in my opinion .

If I recall correctly , Kimi got fastest lap , but Nick was second fastest in the race , indicating he had the pace to continue his original strategy , a two-stopper .
If I have recalled correctly , why did they change the strategy at all ? We might have seen a real battle .
That's what I think Nick was not so happy about .

He denied there were team orders in the first turn , but the die was cast by then .

Exactly, after their first stops Nick was ahead of Kubica, and if they would have kept him on a 2 stopper instead of filling him to the limit while on super soft tires they actually killed his chances to get a fair fight.
Top that with an order to let Robert through and that's it.
Why didn't they wait a few laps before asking him to let the Pole through in order to give him a fairer chance?!

He might have earned himself the chance to continue with BMW but that might have cost him the chance to win a F1 GP. Was it a fair trade?!

[Garry Walker]

As he said it, he let Kubica through without putting up a fight, and at that moment he gave up the chance to win his first ever GP.
If he would have kept the Pole behind for a few more laps than he would have been in front after Kubica's 2nd pit stop and would have probably won the race.

I feel sorry for him, he worked hard to bring this team up, and he is the one they have to thank for all the developing work done on their cars.

What do you feel sorry for him? He has been completely demolished by Kubica this year and the only reason he had any chance to win at all was the SC. Kubica was again by far the better driver and when he overtook Heidfeld, it was because he was so much faster.


Exactly, after their first stops Nick was ahead of Kubica, and if they would have kept him on a 2 stopper instead of filling him to the limit while on super soft tires they actually killed his chances to get a fair fight.
Top that with an order to let Robert through and that's it.
Why didn't they wait a few laps before asking him to let the Pole through in order to give him a fairer chance?!
!
Proof that there was order to let him through, please. Because let`s face it, Heidfeld even blocked Kubica on track at one point. As I see it, Kubica simply was so much quicker that he was able to overtake him easily, without any team orders. Sure, Heidfeld was not going to cut him off, but that`s expected from teammates.

Heidfeld was given a very fair chance, it was his problem his pace was a joke. Next time he wants to fight for the win, maybe drive a bit faster in qualifying.

It is also pathetic to say that Kubica is the preferred man at BMW, it is actually so that Heidfeld is the loved one, except Kubica is making him look like a rookie at the moment.

[ioan]

What do you feel sorry for him? He has been completely demolished by Kubica this year and the only reason he had any chance to win at all was the SC. Kubica was again by far the better driver and when he overtook Heidfeld, it was because he was so much faster.

Yeah sure, we have an era of F1 when to overtake you need the one in front to make a mistake, yet you believe that Kubica overtook Heidfeld driving basically the same car because he was that awesomely faster.

Strange how Heidfeld's best lap was better than Kubica's!

And Heidfeld being given the wrong strategy had nothing to do with Kubica being somewhat faster at the moment when Heidfeld came back from the pits. :rolleyes:

Sure thing Kubica is destroying Heidfeld, with the help of the team.

[Garry Walker]

Yeah sure, we have an era of F1 when to overtake you need the one in front to make a mistake, yet you believe that Kubica overtook Heidfeld driving basically the same car because he was that awesomely faster.
Kubica was over 2 seconds per lap faster, it is quite possible to overtake in such an occasion, especially at Canada.


Strange how Heidfeld's best lap was better than Kubica's!
Strange how Kimis best lap was much better than Massas, yet you gave Massa the man of the race title!



And Heidfeld being given the wrong strategy had nothing to do with Kubica being somewhat faster at the moment when Heidfeld came back from the pits. :rolleyes:

Sure thing Kubica is destroying Heidfeld, with the help of the team.

So now there is team bias for Kubica and a german team wants their german driver to look bad. That sure is right :rolleyes:

Funny how when in Australia, when kubica was given the completely wrong strategy, you were only saying "oh, but points are showing Heidfeld is doing much better and that`s what counts," but now you are harbouring some BS about Heidfeld being screwed in the team, which there is no proof of.
Sure, in hindsight, BMW made the wrong call on strategy for NH, but they have done so on numerous other times as well. Now, looking at it from the point of view of justice, the only reason NH had any chance for a win at all was because of the SC, otherwise he was nowhere.

[ioan]

Strange how Kimis best lap was much better than Massas, yet you gave Massa the man of the race title!

You can give it to Kimi if you want too! :p :

[Bagwan]

[quote="Garry Walker"]Kubica was over 2 seconds per lap faster, it is quite possible to overtake in such an occasion, especially at Canada.[quote]

Garry , do you think that Robert is 2 seconds faster than Nick ?

Can you not see that the speed differential was due to Nick being on a one-stopper ?
Did you not hear Nick say they changed his strategy ?
Did you not see the laptime for Nick on lighter fuel was faster than Robert ?


Too right , Fousto , my man .
Nick stuck to the script , but wasn't happy about it .
.

[wedge]

Can you not see that the speed differential was due to Nick being on a one-stopper ?
Did you not hear Nick say they changed his strategy ?
Did you not see the laptime for Nick on lighter fuel was faster than Robert ?


You shouldn't take fastest laps all too seriously.

DC had 7th fastest lap and the Toyotas were no where and yet they got solid results because they called the strategy right and the drivers made the most of it.

Nick shouldn't have much too complaints regarding strategy because Kubica was lighter and was one of the first to pit, Nick was fuelled longer and could play with the strategy.

To give Nick a very slight benefit of doubt he wasn't on the best of 1 stoppers because he had to pit on lap 29, the Toyotas got as far as lap 39. Ideally you want to do a shorter last stint, not the other way round but there were SC periods.

Nick messed up. He has no one else to blame but himself, IMO.

[jens]

I see in several threads there is a Battle of Giants - ioan vs Garry Walker! :D

I personally don't think we can quite say, who is the so-called preferred man in BMW. This year's car suits Kubica more, because BMW needed to take a change in design to extract more out of the tyres. But if Heidfeld starts shining, then I see no problem, why he shouldn't achieve top results too.

[ioan]

Nick messed up. He has no one else to blame but himself, IMO.

What exactly did he mess up?! :confused:

[W8&C]

After Heidfeld´s „let Robert pass for the championship“-move, the pit told Kubica “we´re racing Heidfeld” (not exactly the words, but the message was to be heard in TV). The next few laps Heidfeld lapped 2 sec slower than anytime before and after in this race, to hold up Alonso and to make sure that Kubica will be in front even after his second pitstop.

Its was blatant team order, nothing else. All we saw was a victory staged by Theissen.

[Bagwan]

You shouldn't take fastest laps all too seriously.

DC had 7th fastest lap and the Toyotas were no where and yet they got solid results because they called the strategy right and the drivers made the most of it.

Nick shouldn't have much too complaints regarding strategy because Kubica was lighter and was one of the first to pit, Nick was fuelled longer and could play with the strategy.

To give Nick a very slight benefit of doubt he wasn't on the best of 1 stoppers because he had to pit on lap 29, the Toyotas got as far as lap 39. Ideally you want to do a shorter last stint, not the other way round but there were SC periods.

Nick messed up. He has no one else to blame but himself, IMO.

As Ioan asked , what exactly did Nick mess up ?

He was clearly upset at having his strategy CHANGED .
He went to lap 29 , which by your own admission , is not the best of one-stoppers , where they had the option to fuel him for the rest of the race , or stay with the two stop .

They chose the latter , even though it crippled Heidfeld .
He was heavy , and , even though they knew he would be compromised by running the options for the whole stint , they did it .

Part of that 2 seconds was fuel , and part was tires .
Neither would have hampered his progress , had they left him with his original plan .
In fact , given that nobody corrected my assertion that he had second fastest lap , I will say that he was the likely one to win .

Mario terminated that possibility .

Mario seemingly still needs to justify his choice of Kubica over Villeneuve .
That's the only reason I can think of to kill one of his driver's chances .

[F1boat]

Nick didn't mess up, he isn't as good as RK. IMO.

[Bagwan]

Nick didn't mess up, he isn't as good as RK. IMO.

Maybe that's true , boat , but we never got to see that contest .
That's what I'm on about , and why I believe Nick was upset .

We were deprived of a really close contest between two drivers in identical cars on the same strategy .

One got the pole because of his strategy , and the other , in the lead , turning the second fastest lap of the race , was forced , apparently against his wishes , to apopt a strategy that compromised his race .

It was only a difference of 2 points , both being brought home for the same team , so no real advantage to the team other than to have Robert a further two points ahead in the WDC .


It sucks to be Nick , so close and yet so far .

[F1boat]

I think that Alonso was the reason for the strategy change, not some evil conspiracy.

[truefan72]

after watching the race again, I must saythat I find BMW's race strategy eith Nikc Heidefeld very curious. Wothout going out and saying that teamorders were in play, I do beleive that the preferential treatments was given to RK.

IMO he's the #1 at BMW now and I can't really take issue with that as he's leading the WDC. but I do think that purposfully changing Nicks strategy around to his detriment and to the benefit of his teammate is not the way I envisioned BMW and thiesen to be.

[wedge]

Nick didn't mess up, he isn't as good as RK. IMO.

That's what I meant. Nick messed up on not getting the win.

As I said, Nick was the last of the 2 stoppers so because he had more fuel they could play with the strategy because of the SC.

He shouldn't have thrown a fit criticising the strategy, surely you make the most of what's given, whatever the circumstances? Why did Nick slow down after being overtaken by Kubica?


We were deprived of a really close contest between two drivers in identical cars on the same strategy.

Why should they both be on the same strategy? BMW had to cover their bases for possible eventualities because a SC period was likely to ruin the original race strategy.


One got the pole because of his strategy , and the other , in the lead , turning the second fastest lap of the race

Oh please, second fastest lap is next to meaningless.

Kubica admitted he had to do 7 consecutive qualy laps at the end of his race stint and yet he's classified 4th fastest race lap. For all I know 'Quick-Nick' wouldn't be able to replicate that kind of feat.

Thinking back to Melbourne, Nick messed up there as well because he never made the effort to challenge Hamilton on restarts.

Nick is becoming less favourable by the minute. When it comes to the crunch, the more I see him as a chump.

If there is favouritism then you can see why because Kubica earnt it all year.

[Bagwan]

That's what I meant. Nick messed up on not getting the win.

As I said, Nick was the last of the 2 stoppers so because he had more fuel they could play with the strategy because of the SC.

He shouldn't have thrown a fit criticising the strategy, surely you make the most of what's given, whatever the circumstances? Why did Nick slow down after being overtaken by Kubica?



Why should they both be on the same strategy? BMW had to cover their bases for possible eventualities because a SC period was likely to ruin the original race strategy.



Oh please, second fastest lap is next to meaningless.

Kubica admitted he had to do 7 consecutive qualy laps at the end of his race stint and yet he's classified 4th fastest race lap. For all I know 'Quick-Nick' wouldn't be able to replicate that kind of feat.

Thinking back to Melbourne, Nick messed up there as well because he never made the effort to challenge Hamilton on restarts.

Nick is becoming less favourable by the minute. When it comes to the crunch, the more I see him as a chump.

If there is favouritism then you can see why because Kubica earnt it all year.

It is clear you don't believe in Nick , and believe strongly that Kubica is better .

None of Robert's "7 qualifying laps" were as fast as Nick's fastest , so I'm not sure how you extrapolate that into Nick not being "able to replicate that kind of feat" .

Nick has had a hard time warming the tires , whereas Robert , more aggressive in cornering , gets them to temperature sooner , a common condition in pitlane this year .
He has , as a result , has fuelled heavy for final quals , giving him an advantage , should the safety car come out , and the advantage of running light after everyone else pits .

Nick lead , and had a great chance at the podium , but only if he could run lighter , two-stopping the second half .

Once they fuelled him heavy , and he knew he had to nurse the soft tires to make them last half the race , he knew his only option to help the team was to salvage second . That , he did .

He's starting to know how Jacques felt .

[Hawkmoon]

Heidfeld quite obviously played the team game when he put up no resistance to Kubica's pass. It would have been to Heidfeld's advantage to keep Kubica behind him for as long as possible, thus negating Kubica's advantage of a lighter car. But would it have been to BMW's advantage?

Heidfeld's rather disappointed face says that though he played the team game he only did it under instruction and it was an instruction he didn't seem to like.

This is the problem with the whole issue of team orders. Teams should either designate a No.1 and a No.2 so that everybody knows where they stand or they should have equal No.1s in fact as well as name. When you let your drivers believe that they are equal you better back that up in deed. Just ask McLaren what happens when you say one thing and do another.

[ioan]

That's what I meant. Nick messed up on not getting the win.

To win against your team's wishes is not a possibility in F1!

[Storm]

Mario seemingly still needs to justify his choice of Kubica over Villeneuve .That's the only reason I can think of to kill one of his driver's chances .

I was wondering whats the big interest about Heidfeld suddenly when all can see that Kubica has been easily the quicker guy (this year atleast)...but then I read the name JV and all is clear.

[Bezza]

BMW would let their drivers race but in this instance Kubica was so much quicker that I believe he passed Heidfeld on merit, and there is no point in Heidfeld banging wheels with him in heavy defence. Heidfeld needed to be quicker after Kubica got past, and then he would have probably won.

[Dave B]

He's starting to know how Jacques felt .
How? Past it? :p

[Bagwan]

I was wondering whats the big interest about Heidfeld suddenly when all can see that Kubica has been easily the quicker guy (this year atleast)...but then I read the name JV and all is clear.

So , if all is so clear why did they changed Nick's strategy ? Do tell .

[Bagwan]

BMW would let their drivers race but in this instance Kubica was so much quicker that I believe he passed Heidfeld on merit, and there is no point in Heidfeld banging wheels with him in heavy defence. Heidfeld needed to be quicker after Kubica got past, and then he would have probably won.

There's no point in banging wheels if you are crippled by your team .
Merit . Yeah , right .

[Bagwan]

How? Past it? :p

Nope , Davey , screwed by the team into a support role , when he had every chance of winning .
He's recently defended Nick , as he's criticised for low quals , saying he's no #two .

But , now , Nick knows otherwise .

[wedge]

None of Robert's "7 qualifying laps" were as fast as Nick's fastest , so I'm not sure how you extrapolate that into Nick not being "able to replicate that kind of feat" .

My point is that Nick's fastest lap was probably a one-off. Show me proof he did similar string of laptimes on that stint.


Nick lead , and had a great chance at the podium , but only if he could run lighter , two-stopping the second half .

Once they fuelled him heavy , and he knew he had to nurse the soft tires to make them last half the race , he knew his only option to help the team was to salvage second . That , he did.

As I said, they ran separate strategies to cover their bases because you see the SC often in Montreal.

F1 is team sport to a degree and BMW wanted their first win badly.

Nick probably would've won the race if there was a subsequent SC period after his pit stop, because Kubica would need to stop again and Nick would have track position. Most likely BMW would've called off the race as most teams do at a final stint of a 2-stopper.

[ioan]

I've been thinking about the reasons that pushed BMW to ask Nick to let Kubica win.
BMW is a German manufacturer, Nick is a German driver, the top German driver at this moment in F1. You might bet that BMW wouldn't hurt their own image within the German market by asking Nick to let Kubica win if there wasn't a huge positive side in all this!

So what is it?! After all be it Nick or Kubica it would have certainly been a win and a BMW 1-2.

However if Nick won he would have got only 30 points in the championship while Kubica's win put him 1st in the WDC! I believe this is the reason why BMW did it, to put themselves at the top of one of the championships, and only Massa's storm through the field kept Ferrari on top of the Constructors Championship table, otherwise it would be BMW leading both!

I suppose that if Nick would have been in Kubica's points position before the race the team would have let him win it in order to get no.1 position in the Championship.

Just my 2 cents.

[ArrowsFA1]

BMW are certainly taking steps to help Nick by altering their test schedule:
Nick Heidfeld will get a chance to work on solving his qualifying problems at this week's test at Barcelona after his BMW Sauber team altered their planned schedule to give him some track time...the team have decided to give Heidfeld a day's testing this week, altering the schedule which had Kubica at the wheel all three days.
http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/68194

That doesn't seem like a team intent on favouring one driver over the other.

[ioan]

BMW are certainly taking steps to help Nick by altering their test schedule:
http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/68194

That doesn't seem like a team intent on favouring one driver over the other.

I'll disagree with you given that they had planned to have Kubica test afor the whole 3 days of testing.

Maybe they got some public pressure after they asked Nick to give up on the victory in Canada.

How on earth were they planning to have Kubica test for the whole 3 days when the other driver needs that testing time more?! Don't tell me, they believe they have a chance to win the WDC title?! :laugh:

Last year when Kimi had troubles adapting to the Ferrari he was given plenty of track time during testing, they were not planing to use only Felipe! :rolleyes:

[F1boat]

To win against your team's wishes is not a possibility in F1!

Last year Fred did it four times ;)

[555-04Q2]

When Nick mentioned in the interviews that he had to follow Robert home after the team changed him to the one-stop , it showed us why he wasn't happy .
He had run longer , and so , was compromised in the quals , to get a better shot at the race .

Since he mentioned this , I am assuming he perhaps had some disagreement with going to a one-stop , and was denied the opportunity to win , or at least fight with his team-mate for the win .
He appeared , since fuelling long for quals , to be the only one of the two to have the option , but appeared upset that it was chosen .
As a result , he was forced to run half the race on options , and full tanks , so it should have been an choice that was the lesser of the two .

He had a fast car , and took second , but wasn't happy .
They also didn't seem very cordial in the interview seats either .

I don't think all is well at Beamer .

I also just read a headline something like "Kubica would accept Alonso as team-mate" .
And , Kubica is getting questions about being the "de facto" number 1 .

I think he has been from the beginning .

It would have been nice for Nick to get the win considering his input into the BMW Sauber team. He should have got the first win, but didnt. Thats life unfortunately.

I think Nick was extremely dissapointed that Kubica got BMW Saubers first ever race win, and it showed in his facial expresions. He was expecting to be the one to lead BMW Sauber to their first win but it appears that Kubica has got the better of him this season. Still along way to go though.

Nice to see a different team and driver winning for a change, even if it was with a little luck. Hopefully more will follow this season.

[Bagwan]

3 days testing .
Nick has issues to sort , and they had Robert in for all 3 .
Now he's in for one of the days .

So Kubica still shown advantaged .


Nick , you're a good driver . Some day , once Robert has won a few more , maybe they'll give you one .
Hang in there , kid .

[Garry Walker]

After Heidfeld´s „let Robert pass for the championship“-move, the pit told Kubica “we´re racing Heidfeld” (not exactly the words, but the message was to be heard in TV). The next few laps Heidfeld lapped 2 sec slower than anytime before and after in this race, to hold up Alonso and to make sure that Kubica will be in front even after his second pitstop.


Bull****.
I challenge you to prove that Heidfeld at one point during the race suddenly started lapping 2 seconds per lap slower and that for more than one lap in row.
http://www.f1matrix.it will give you all laptimes

This will be fun.




It sucks to be Nick , so close and yet so far .

The only reason he was close was the stupid SC rules and SC, he was 25 seconds behind Kubica without it.
NH was extremely lucky at Canada, not the opposite. The only thing that sucks about him is the fact that Kubica is killing his career with his superior pace.


To win against your team's wishes is not a possibility in F1!
:rolleyes:


I've been thinking about the reasons that pushed BMW to ask Nick to let Kubica win.

For **** Sakes.

Heidfeld was not asked to let Kubica win, he was just not fast enough to win. Unless you can provide evidence Heidfeld was told to let RK win. No hearsay or such will do, PROOF required.

BMW even tried to help him and told him that if Alonso was making him lose time, he should let him pass. But the problem for Nick was that his pace simply wasn`t there when it needed to be on heavy fuel. Sure, his car was heavy. But DC with similar fuel was able to match Heidfelds pace in the Red Bull car.
Kubica would have taken the lead even with the 2nd place.


3 days testing .
Nick has issues to sort , and they had Robert in for all 3 .
Now he's in for one of the days .

So Kubica still shown advantaged .


Nick , you're a good driver . Some day , once Robert has won a few more , maybe they'll give you one .
Hang in there , kid .

So far this season no driver has had as many test days as Heidfeld (21). Kubica has 19 test days.
Yeah, BMW are sure screwing nick :rolleyes:

[ArrowsFA1]

I'll disagree with you given that they had planned to have Kubica test afor the whole 3 days of testing.

Maybe they got some public pressure after they asked Nick to give up on the victory in Canada.

How on earth were they planning to have Kubica test for the whole 3 days when the other driver needs that testing time more?!


So far this season no driver has had as many test days as Heidfeld (21). Kubica has 19 test days.

I was going to say that test days are normally spread pretty evenly but couldn't find anything to back it up (or didn't have the time!). Thanks Garry.

[SGWilko]

I'll disagree with you given that they had planned to have Kubica test afor the whole 3 days of testing.

How on earth were they planning to have Kubica test for the whole 3 days?! :laugh:

Eh? :confused:

[ioan]

Eh? :confused:

Are you some journo or you ran out of ideas and decided to copy paste different parts of my post in order to make it look confusing?!

Next time quote properly if you want to make a serious point, otherwise don't bother. Misquoting others makes you look amateurish at least.

Capisci?!

[SGWilko]

Are you some journo or you ran out of ideas and decided to copy paste different parts of my post in order to make it look confusing?!

Next time quote properly if you want to make a serious point, otherwise don't bother. Misquoting others makes you look amateurish at least.

Capisci?!

Do you know, I've run out of ideas for a reply. Now, what did my editor ask me to put in that paper............

[longisland]

Yeah sure, we have an era of F1 when to overtake you need the one in front to make a mistake, yet you believe that Kubica overtook Heidfeld driving basically the same car because he was that awesomely faster.

Strange how Heidfeld's best lap was better than Kubica's!

And Heidfeld being given the wrong strategy had nothing to do with Kubica being somewhat faster at the moment when Heidfeld came back from the pits. :rolleyes:

Sure thing Kubica is destroying Heidfeld, with the help of the team.

Maybe the team has denied Nick's chance of winning the race but in retrospect, a single stop may be the correct strategy since Nick started way down in 11th. It would be a different story if the team changed Nick's pitstop strategy after the pitlane accident, but only the team would know.
Another conspiracy theory is the team instructed Nick not to push that hard to preserve tires so Rob can be ahead of Nick after 2nd pit stop. We've heard that from Lewis in Monaco last year.
Kudos to Rob! His flying laps reminds me of Shuey

[ioan]

Maybe the team has denied Nick's chance of winning the race but in retrospect, a single stop may be the correct strategy since Nick started way down in 11th.

Nick was in front of Kubica after each had 1 stop, he was in fact leading the race, so why put him on a 1 stopper when he was on equal foot with Kubica and Alonso and would have stopped later for his second stop?! Therein lies the problem. Putting him on a 1 stopper on super softs destroyed his pace and his chances for the win.

I still maintain that it was decided by the team in order to get 1st place in the WDC standings.

[Dave B]

I still maintain that it was decided by the team in order to get 1st place in the WDC standings.
And? You're a Ferrari fan, aren't you? I assume your memory stretches back more than a couple of years :p

[ArrowsFA1]

BMW Sauber team boss Mario Theissen says he has no plans to bestow number one status on Robert Kubica in the wake of his Montreal victory.
After taking the championship lead thanks to his Canadian Grand Prix win, Kubica called on the team to get fully behind his title bid.
"We are leading the drivers' championship, so I hope the team will give me 100 per cent support to try to maybe defend it until the last race," he said on Sunday.
But Theissen said he was not intending to ask Nick Heidfeld to support Kubica at this stage.
"For the coming races I think we won't switch our strategy," he told autosport.com.
"Both drivers get equal treatment in terms of car, in terms of the team. Then we look at what they can do in qualifying and then on that basis we decide on the race strategy."
http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/68245

[ioan]

And? You're a Ferrari fan, aren't you? I assume your memory stretches back more than a couple of years :p

I didn't say that they weren't doing the right thing for the team! :p :

I'm only amazed how people are denying it being a case of team orders and say it was purely because Kubica is so much better than Heidfeld.

[leopard]

I would believe it in case Heidfeld who took the lead over Kubica. :)

[ArrowsFA1]

I'm only amazed how people are denying it being a case of team orders and say it was purely because Kubica is so much better than Heidfeld.
But it is only your theory ;)

[Garry Walker]

I was going to say that test days are normally spread pretty evenly but couldn't find anything to back it up (or didn't have the time!). Thanks Garry.

http://www.motorsport-total.com/f1/tests/

Comprehensive data on all tests from 2003 , If I remember correctly.

No surprise, no answers to the points I raised.

[Bagwan]

Bull****.
I challenge you to prove that Heidfeld at one point during the race suddenly started lapping 2 seconds per lap slower and that for more than one lap in row.
http://www.f1matrix.it will give you all laptimes

This will be fun.



The only reason he was close was the stupid SC rules and SC, he was 25 seconds behind Kubica without it.
NH was extremely lucky at Canada, not the opposite. The only thing that sucks about him is the fact that Kubica is killing his career with his superior pace.


:rolleyes:


For **** Sakes.

Heidfeld was not asked to let Kubica win, he was just not fast enough to win. Unless you can provide evidence Heidfeld was told to let RK win. No hearsay or such will do, PROOF required.

BMW even tried to help him and told him that if Alonso was making him lose time, he should let him pass. But the problem for Nick was that his pace simply wasn`t there when it needed to be on heavy fuel. Sure, his car was heavy. But DC with similar fuel was able to match Heidfelds pace in the Red Bull car.
Kubica would have taken the lead even with the 2nd place.



So far this season no driver has had as many test days as Heidfeld (21). Kubica has 19 test days.
Yeah, BMW are sure screwing nick :rolleyes:

OK , Garry , just so you don't get feeling too smug about this , I'll reply .

I haven't looked at the lap times , but , Nick was being slowed by keeping Alonso behind . It was the result of the heavy fuel .

Nick was fuelled heavier , so the 25 seconds Robert had were in the pit stop .

Had he fuelled similarly to Robert , he may have been able to keep pace , especially since he would have had to suffer the options for roughly half that time .

As for the test days , that Robert is doing better with less testing than Nick until now is largely irrelevent to right now .
To have 2 drivers dicing for the number one spot on the grid , should be the aim , as that gives the team the best chance .

For Nick , a tiny adjustment in style or set-up may mean it all comes together , but he needs it soon , as the press only sees the winner .
The guy got second , and they have him retired , replaced , and all but commentating .

[wedge]

Bagwan actually made a good point on Nick being quick on a two stopper. I stand corrected.

At the end of his first stint (longer and heavier than Kubica) he was easily doing 1:17.7s and whereas Kubica was struggling to break into the 1:17s.

But still you've got to make best of the strategy given and I still feel nick shouldn't be more more than 10s (at the very least) behind Kubica at the end of the race.

[gravity]

Heidfeld had no option but to get out of Kubica's way. If he held Rob up, it would have affected the team's chances of a 1-2 finish (Nick not having to stop again and Rob still having to make 1 stop). BMW would have looked silly if they didn't get a 1-2 from the position they suddenly found themselves in. Face it... How many more races do u think they will win this year? My guess... 0. And another 1-2 finish? Not for quite some time!

BMW would know that! They've got a plan for winning more races in the future, and getting their driver to challenge for championships. What if you were in their shoes and had to pick a driver to stick with? I'd put money on it being Kubica long before I'd put anything on Heidfeld. Heidfeld put a lot of effort assisting BMW to get where they are... and I'm sure he still has a lot to give to the team. But I doubt he is DWC material.

[markabilly]

Heidfeld had no option but to get out of Kubica's way. If he held Rob up, it would have affected the team's chances of a 1-2 finish (Nick not having to stop again and Rob still having to make 1 stop). BMW would have looked silly if they didn't get a 1-2 from the position they suddenly found themselves in. Face it... How many more races do u think they will win this year? My guess... 0. And another 1-2 finish? Not for quite some time!

BMW would know that! They've got a plan for winning more races in the future, and getting their driver to challenge for championships. What if you were in their shoes and had to pick a driver to stick with? I'd put money on it being Kubica long before I'd put anything on Heidfeld. Heidfeld put a lot of effort assisting BMW to get where they are... and I'm sure he still has a lot to give to the team. But I doubt he is DWC material.
Probably all too true
Clear team strategy advantage went to the Kube,

[airshifter]

I didn't say that they weren't doing the right thing for the team! :p :

I'm only amazed how people are denying it being a case of team orders and say it was purely because Kubica is so much better than Heidfeld.


I've always liked Heidfeld, and like Kubica as well. I think Nick is a great driver, but think Robert is a better driver in most cases. Though it's always possible it was a team order, the debate would be different if there had been another safety car period and the 1 stop strategty benefitted Heidleld over Kubica.

Then everyone could claim Kubica got shafted because he's not German! :)

I personally think that a long term F1 driver like Nick, being a German on a German team, would not be intentionally slowed for the sake of another driver. Were it further into the season with Kubica fighting for the WDC I might consider it, but with all the bizzare incidents in Canada I just can't imagine the team predicting them all and adjusting strategy based on what eventually happened.

[Dzeidzei]

I still maintain that it was decided by the team in order to get 1st place in the WDC standings.

Oddly enough I find myself agreeing with ioan. But there is another possibility. If the team and Nick already know he wont be at Beamer next year, why wouldnt they prefer RK to win?

But all you Germans should not get too worried, Nick´s replacement is German too. At least through his mother.

[Bagwan]

Here's what a good team player says , and proof of what I saw in Nick in those interviews :

"No, I was not fully satisfied as I had a good chance to win my first Grand Prix," he said. "However it was a great result for the team finishing 1-2, with a perfect strategy for the team.

"Converting me to a one-stop and having Robert on a two-stop, in the end even if there would have been a safety car, I would have been lucky with the win.

"So it was great for the team, but of course if you are so close to your first win then you cannot be satisfied."

[ioan]

Here's what a good team player says , and proof of what I saw in Nick in those interviews :

"No, I was not fully satisfied as I had a good chance to win my first Grand Prix," he said. "However it was a great result for the team finishing 1-2, with a perfect strategy for the team.

"Converting me to a one-stop and having Robert on a two-stop, in the end even if there would have been a safety car, I would have been lucky with the win.

"So it was great for the team, but of course if you are so close to your first win then you cannot be satisfied."

I was going to post the same quotes.
You are right, he's a good team player, he managed to explain his frustration in a positive way. When will certain drivers learn to do it the same way?

[gloomyDAY]

This probable won't make Nicky smile (http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/70097) either.

[F1boat]

Oddly enough I find myself agreeing with ioan. But there is another possibility. If the team and Nick already know he wont be at Beamer next year, why wouldnt they prefer RK to win?

But all you Germans should not get too worried, Nick´s replacement is German too. At least through his mother.

I really hope that Nico will drive for the BMW.