View Full Version : Road going cars Vs Touring cars
stevenlcroucher
4th June 2008, 11:14
In a two or three lap race around the Brands Hatch indy circuit, who would win these races:
Vectra VXR Vs Vectra Touring Car
Seat Diesel Sport Vs Seat Touring Car
Might be fun to watch.
Marc W
4th June 2008, 12:38
The Touring cars both times, both would be considerably faster.
stevenlcroucher
4th June 2008, 14:16
I know the Touring cars would be quicker through the turns, but in terms of straightline speed, I would put my money on the road road going Vectra.
AndySpeed
4th June 2008, 15:03
You wouldn't get that much straight line speed around Brands Hatch Indy, the straights are too small.
How about road going SEAT Leon TDi vs. road going Vauxhall Vectra VXR
VX_Rules
4th June 2008, 17:22
Veccy :P
AndySpeed
4th June 2008, 17:27
Veccy :P
Veccy? What, are we six?!
The Leon FR would have it. It can corner, the VXR can't. It's just understeer and torquesteer mad. :crazy:
This reminds me of a Top Gear Magazine feature from late 1993, when they had every works car represented by a roadcar at Silverstone and they were driven by one of the team drivers in a fast lap shootout. It also appeared on the TV show. The results were quite surprising, comparing the 10 roadcars (they included the Volvo 850 and Alfa 155 in there) to the performance of the racecars.
There's an idea for you Auto Express. :)
BDunnell
4th June 2008, 19:04
This reminds me of a Top Gear Magazine feature from late 1993, when they had every works car represented by a roadcar at Silverstone and they were driven by one of the team drivers in a fast lap shootout. It also appeared on the TV show. The results were quite surprising, comparing the 10 roadcars (they included the Volvo 850 and Alfa 155 in there) to the performance of the racecars.
Ah yes, I remember that well. I seem to recall that Tiff Needell drove both the Volvo and the Alfa — or was it Jeremy Clarkson? It's a long time ago now. I have it on tape somewhere. Do you recall which was the quickest road car?
stevevxr
4th June 2008, 19:25
Drove a VXR Vectra when i worked for VX last year !!! Mighty machine for wot it cost's !! Thought the Astra VXR was better though...
BTCC Vectra would kill the road going versions no probs...
Don't forget the VXR Vectra road car is a 2.8 Turbo V6...
The BTCC engine is the 2 litre 16v engine out the SRI...
LiamM
4th June 2008, 19:27
Don't forget the VXR Vectra road car is a 2.8 Turbo V6...
The BTCC engine is the 2 litre 16v engine out the SRI...
But the BTCC Vectra isn't set up for Tesco carpark
Ah yes, I remember that well. I seem to recall that Tiff Needell drove both the Volvo and the Alfa — or was it Jeremy Clarkson? It's a long time ago now. I have it on tape somewhere. Do you recall which was the quickest road car?
I've still got the magazine.......somewhere in the depths of my vast media archive.
Around a race track there will be on contest at all. The BTCC cars would be miles ahead. Just on the tyres and suspension alone.
Brown, Jon Brow
4th June 2008, 20:46
Well I'm guessing that the Vectra VXR and BTCC car have similar bhp output, (around 280bhp?) but the BTCC car is much lighter, lower, racing suspension, stiffer chassis, racing tyres and brakes etc.. No contest.
For the benefit of Mr Dunnell, here's the article from 1993 which I have scanned in. Well most of it anyway. A lot of foul play was going on though, according to the article. Not my words, those are the words of Top Gear Magazine!
http://flickr.com/photos/iainw81/sets/72157605439357529/
BDunnell
4th June 2008, 22:31
Thanks Iain!
For the benefit of Mr Dunnell, here's the article from 1993 which I have scanned in. Well most of it anyway. A lot of foul play was going on though, according to the article. Not my words, those are the words of Top Gear Magazine!
The text is a bit small for me to read. Does it suggest that the Renault 19 might have shared the characteristics of its successor, in that uphill runs become power-sappingly mundane, while overtaking National Express coaches can become a long, drawn-out affair?
AndySpeed
4th June 2008, 22:51
The text is a bit small for me to read. Does it suggest that the Renault 19 might have shared the characteristics of its successor, in that uphill runs become power-sappingly mundane, while overtaking National Express coaches can become a long, drawn-out affair?
Try clicking 'All Sizes' and you'll get something like the following:
http://flickr.com/photos/iainw81/2552133640/sizes/l/in/set-72157605439357529/
Thanks for the upload Iain, really enjoyed reading that.
No problem. I was just going to type out the results, but thought I may as well scan in the article as it was quite amusing. :)
Marc W
4th June 2008, 23:41
Thanks for posting that, it was definately worth scanning the whole thing in :)
They made a mistake by letting the drivers access to the cars before the race. The organisers should have supplied them with the vehicles on the day to ensure no funny business.
Brown, Jon Brow
5th June 2008, 10:09
I never realised that manufacturers used parts such as the engine from other models. Such as the Ford V6 not coming from a Mondeo, and what was that about Ford thinking about running the Mondeo with RWD?
Just out of interest, how much faster would the old Production Class cars be than the the road versions?
If there was a 4WD version of your model in the range, you could use it. Either as 4WD or with the drive to the front wheels disconnected and it became a RWD car. Vauxhall tried this first in 1990 with a second Cavalier. It was said to be "the best balanced racing car I've ever driven" by either Chris Hodgetts or John Cleland, I can't remember, but it lacked power among other things.
Ford didn't enter until midway through 1993 because they had to redesign the car as a front wheel drive one. They found they lost too much power when sending it to the rear wheels, as well as increased weight which would have made it uncompetitive. However in 1995, the German works Mondeo team did run full 4WD cars, but they never really had any success. Charlie Cox had a 4WD hatchback built when he recovered from his accident, but I can't remember if they ever ran it in 4WD form or just FWD.
BDunnell
5th June 2008, 11:32
If there was a 4WD version of your model in the range, you could use it. Either as 4WD or with the drive to the front wheels disconnected and it became a RWD car.
Same sort of rule for engines, wasn't it? Manufacturers could use any engine from their model range, hence Ford using the Mazda-developed V6 from the Probe as the basis for the Mondeo's engine.
Ford didn't enter until midway through 1993 because they had to redesign the car as a front wheel drive one. They found they lost too much power when sending it to the rear wheels, as well as increased weight which would have made it uncompetitive.
They also, if I remember rightly, tested a four-cylinder version.
Charlie Cox had a 4WD hatchback built when he recovered from his accident, but I can't remember if they ever ran it in 4WD form or just FWD.
I'm sure the car never raced in 4wd form.
VX_Rules
5th June 2008, 12:31
How on earth do you think that a 2 litre Leon could beat a v6 Vectra around a track. There is a video on youtube somewhere where Gio knocks the socks off Turkington in a Beemer in the v6 Vectra.
Dont believe all the codswollop TopGear tells you.
MrJan
5th June 2008, 13:40
Years back (the 3 team season I think) the BBC did a thing using a BTCC Mondeo, a road going mondeo and a Fiesta (???) around Donnington. Each car set off at 20 second (or whatever) intervals with the small car first, then the road car, then the touring car. Needless to say the touring car still walked it.
Years back (the 3 team season I think) the BBC did a thing using a BTCC Mondeo, a road going mondeo and a Fiesta (???) around Donnington. Each car set off at 20 second (or whatever) intervals with the small car first, then the road car, then the touring car. Needless to say the touring car still walked it.
Clarkson did that in one of his videos as well. He was in a Ford Cougar, Colin McRae in the Ford Focus WRC99 and Johnny Herbert in the Stewart-Ford SF3. The Stewart pipped the Focus and Cougar at the line. But then that's not really relevant to the thread. Thought I'd mention it though. :)
Marc W
5th June 2008, 17:38
How on earth do you think that a 2 litre Leon could beat a v6 Vectra around a track. There is a video on youtube somewhere where Gio knocks the socks off Turkington in a Beemer in the v6 Vectra.
Dont believe all the codswollop TopGear tells you.
That was at the Brands hatch season launch this year, altough I believe the BMW was only a 320. They also did a WTCC one, which was a total mismatch with Rob huff in a road going Lacetti up against andy Priaulx in his full WTCC BMW! even giving Rob a rolling head start while he did a stationary one, Andy was still finishing well ahead by the line!
AndySpeed
5th June 2008, 18:11
Vectra (http://www.flickr.com/photos/8272832@N05/2270342603/in/set-72157603923186816/) vs. 320 (http://www.flickr.com/photos/8272832@N05/2270343413/in/set-72157603923186816/)(?)
Lacetti (http://www.flickr.com/photos/8272832@N05/2270344155/in/set-72157603923186816/) vs. Full on WTCC 320si (http://www.flickr.com/photos/8272832@N05/2271137158/in/set-72157603923186816/)
(Holbon's images (http://www.flickr.com/photos/8272832@N05/sets/72157603923186816/))
Strange looking cars, being in full livery yet so high off the ground!
Marc W
5th June 2008, 18:15
More photos in this set;
http://www.flickr.com/photos/19193662@N00/sets/72157603908953012/
fabricator/61
5th June 2008, 22:05
Fabrizio went round Thruxton quicker in his VXR Vectra than his race car, something to do with more bhp in road car than race car, this was last year by the way. :cool:
VX_Rules
5th June 2008, 22:30
Although Gio now has an Antara not a Vectra :P
But Tom has an Astra VXR and im sure that would be just as up to the match.
The Leon FR would have it. It can corner, the VXR can't. It's just understeer and torquesteer mad. :crazy:
This reminds me of a Top Gear Magazine feature from late 1993, when they had every works car represented by a roadcar at Silverstone and they were driven by one of the team drivers in a fast lap shootout. It also appeared on the TV show. The results were quite surprising, comparing the 10 roadcars (they included the Volvo 850 and Alfa 155 in there) to the performance of the racecars.
There's an idea for you Auto Express. :)
I remember that, the Audi RS4 Avant road car mullered everything off the line, works 850 Estate touring car included.
Brown, Jon Brow
6th June 2008, 11:17
Fabrizio went round Thruxton quicker in his VXR Vectra than his race car, something to do with more bhp in road car than race car, this was last year by the way. :cool:
That can't be true. The road going VXR has 276BHP. The BTCC car has at least this much if not closer to 300BHP.
A road going saloon car can't be as fast around a track as a racing car!
Marc W
6th June 2008, 12:32
That can't be true. The road going VXR has 276BHP. The BTCC car has at least this much if not closer to 300BHP.
A road going saloon car can't be as fast around a track as a racing car!
In addition to that the road car weighs considerably more meaning it would have an inferior power to weight ratio.
BDunnell
6th June 2008, 12:53
That can't be true. The road going VXR has 276BHP. The BTCC car has at least this much if not closer to 300BHP.
A road going saloon car can't be as fast around a track as a racing car!
I find it hard to believe as well, but what's the top speed of the road car against the racing car?
AndySpeed
6th June 2008, 13:02
Well the Vectra VXR V6 has a top speec of 161mph, so I imagine it might be hard for the BTCC model to compete with that.
http://www.autoexpress.co.uk/carreviews/firstdrives/61691/vauxhall_vectra.html
Well the Vectra VXR V6 has a top speec of 161mph, so I imagine it might be hard for the BTCC model to compete with that.
http://www.autoexpress.co.uk/carreviews/firstdrives/61691/vauxhall_vectra.html
How long does it take to get to that speed, though? Probably got a leggy top gear or two to get it to that speed. I'd rather have closer ratios, lower top speed and more brutal accelleration. Yeah, I know it'd mean rowing it a bit more but it just makes you feel more like a racer, right? ;)
Brown, Jon Brow
6th June 2008, 15:24
The road car couldn't maintain enough momentum through Church corner to reach its high top speed. The touring cars are on the limit through there, even with less weight, racing tyres, suspension etc. I'd imagine the Vectra VXR to understeer like a pig on the fast sections. As Clarkson said 'It's the worst chassis I've come across'.
VX_Rules
6th June 2008, 15:59
You all think Clarkson is God dont you?
LiamM
6th June 2008, 16:30
The road car couldn't maintain enough momentum through Church corner to reach its high top speed. The touring cars are on the limit through there, even with less weight, racing tyres, suspension etc. I'd imagine the Vectra VXR to understeer like a pig on the fast sections. As Clarkson said 'It's the worst chassis I've come across'.
Less understeer, more torque steer
The road car couldn't maintain enough momentum through Church corner to reach its high top speed. The touring cars are on the limit through there, even with less weight, racing tyres, suspension etc. I'd imagine the Vectra VXR to understeer like a pig on the fast sections. As Clarkson said 'It's the worst chassis I've come across'.
Yeah, well I'm a bit skeptical about that whole feature, given Clarkson's anti-Vauxhall bias. Take the hot lap: all electronic aids were switched off for a start, do they do that with other cars? I know that the TC is always switched off if possible but I bet they didn't do the Mitsi Evo hot laps with everything switched off. I bet they never chased the Lambo down in that FQ400 with the aids turned off.
And look at the way the Stig was driving it, it seemed he was deliberately invoking too much understeer. Add this to the lack of driver aids and it adds up to a deliberate attemp to make the car look like a bad handling pig. It's interesting to look at the lap times and note that:
The Vectra VXR was only 0.1 sec slower than a Ferrari 575M
It was nearly a second quicker than a Vanquish
It was less than half a second slower than a Focus ST
Facts which were glossed over as he quickly slapped the time on the board and cut away...
Less understeer, more torque steer
Torque steer, bah. My Megane had 225bhp and torque steered like buggery. But you got used to the torque steer very quickly and before long you were countering it with the steering wheel without even thinking about it.
MrJan
6th June 2008, 17:03
But it is still a Vauxhall :p :
Still if the road car was quicker then please tell me why 888 or whoever does it these days would invest so much money? It's ridiculous that this is given the time of day.
stevevxr
6th June 2008, 19:09
There is no way the road going version goes round a circuit quicker than a race prepared BTCC vectra.
The race car is far lighter, stiffer, lower and more aerodynamic.... plus a a BTCC car corners far better and brakes better.
The road going version just can't handle the power and oversteer's like crazy because the chassis can't handle the power.
I know because i experienced it at a Vauxhall VXR staff training day in 2005.
CroftPilgrim
9th June 2008, 15:36
How on earth do you think that a 2 litre Leon could beat a v6 Vectra around a track.
Because its not just about engines. The BTCC Leon as a racing car, the V6 Vectra is a road car. Suspension, brakes, tyres all make a the difference.
fabricator/61
9th June 2008, 19:04
Lets put a few things straight, the road going version that Fabrizio drove had more BHP than the race car, the overall weight was only a bit heavier than the race car, it had better torque and a lot less drag than the race car.So because it is a race car doesn't mean that it will be quicker.This info came from his race engineer.
Brown, Jon Brow
9th June 2008, 20:39
Lets put a few things straight, the road going version that Fabrizio drove had more BHP than the race car, the overall weight was only a bit heavier than the race car, it had better torque and a lot less drag than the race car.So because it is a race car doesn't mean that it will be quicker.This info came from his race engineer.
The road car had less drag? Despite the road car being much lower and having a front spiltter and smoothed off grill at the front?
I will have to see it to believe it!!
MrJan
9th June 2008, 20:47
I just don't buy that a BTCC car on slicks with ally panels and carbon fibre, stripped, lowered, on race suspension and with an aero package would be slower unless the road car had a lot more power OR he dropped it in the race car or couldn't get temperature in the tyres etc.
It is very, very difficult to drive quickly on road tyres and I know from speaking to people at events and testing that slicks make the car handle a lot better, something that is handy going around Church.
Clearly anyone that has never driven a race car on slicks would even contemplate thinking that the road car would be faster....
the handling is nothing like you imagine, the grip levels are so much greater it's not even in the same league.
and yes... I've driven a Leon Supercopa, and many Leon's on tracks
CroftPilgrim
10th June 2008, 10:07
Lets put a few things straight, the road going version that Fabrizio drove had more BHP than the race car, the overall weight was only a bit heavier than the race car, it had better torque and a lot less drag than the race car.So because it is a race car doesn't mean that it will be quicker.This info came from his race engineer.
Which is all fine if you just want to go in a straight line......
VX_Rules
10th June 2008, 15:55
Because its not just about engines. The BTCC Leon as a racing car, the V6 Vectra is a road car. Suspension, brakes, tyres all make a the difference.
I was refering to both road going version as the previous poster was talking about. Not tha btcc Leon vs a Road Vectra.
fabricator/61
10th June 2008, 21:02
What a lot off people don't realise is that downforce equals drag and one of the worst items are wheelarch extentions. We are also forgetting that it was Fabrizio driving and thats worth a few tenths of a second in anyones book.
MrJan
10th June 2008, 21:14
What a lot off people don't realise is that downforce equals drag and one of the worst items are wheelarch extentions. We are also forgetting that it was Fabrizio driving and thats worth a few tenths of a second in anyones book.
But downforce also means higher grip levels and better cornering speed, something that is very important through the majority of the lap at Thruxton. There are also 2 heavy breaking zones where the better brakes of the race car (and the downforce and tyres) are important.
If you have a video or some evidence of the lap then it'd be fantanstic to see but I just don't see how a road going family car could be quicker than a BTCC car unless it was an unequal playing field (e.g wet)
MrJan
10th June 2008, 21:35
Interesting video that might have already been on here:
VECTRA VID (http://www.autocar.co.uk/VideosWallpapers/Videos.aspx?AR=232173&CT=V)
Brown, Jon Brow
10th June 2008, 22:29
What a lot off people don't realise is that downforce equals drag and one of the worst items are wheelarch extentions. We are also forgetting that it was Fabrizio driving and thats worth a few tenths of a second in anyones book.
I don't want to alarm you but he drives the touring car too!
CroftPilgrim
11th June 2008, 12:31
I was refering to both road going version as the previous poster was talking about. Not tha btcc Leon vs a Road Vectra.
OK, my mistake!
mac853
14th June 2008, 17:54
I have to tell you something interesting about this year Macau GP, which will host a new race just for road car, as i believe these cars should be so well modified but of course not so much as conventional racing cars. But if you want to take the comparison of these road cars' times between other racing cars, you could visit the HP of Macau GP since 13 Nov.
http://www.macau.grandprix.gov.mo/app/home/mgpc/en#nogo
In interest whats the 0-60 time of the current touring cars as found a data card for the 1996 Audi A4 Quattro which had a 0-60 time of about 5 secs. My road car does about 0-60 in 5.4 sec but I know around a circuit a BTCC car will be much quicker due to better suspension, brakes and tyres. I was pleased I got around the Donington National circuit in 1:37 recently then drove home and used the same car with a family of 4 people for normal day use :D
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