Damaging Formula 1: Ron Dennis vs Max Mosley

[ioan]

Given that it was decided that it can be discussed in the other threads I decided to start one about this subject!

So, people say that Mosely should step down as head of the FIA because his private life actions are detrimental to the FIA and also to F1. This is a rather weird way of trying to condemn the unpopular president of the FIA, hypocritically using his private life and not his professional one!

Mostly the very same people believe, however, that Ron Dennis lying about his team spying on Ferrari and cheating during last season, were not detrimental to F1. they seem to forget how he was crying in front of the cameras, and how he was swearing that his teams integrity is untouched an so on, only to finish by releasing a public letter where they acknowledged that the team did extensively used the stolen Ferrari technical information!

What do you think, is it right that Ron Dennis dare stand besides the podium after being proved to be a liar and a cheater, but Mosley shouldn't because he was presented with uncovered backside on the internet in attempt to discredit him?!
Who's actions were more damaging to F1 in your opinion?

[Big Ben]

yeah... sure... people never complain about Mosley's professional activity... it's unheard of!

and what do you propose we should do about RD? it's his team. He owns 15% of that company if I'm not wrong. whether he stays "the Boss" of the the Mclaren company it's not your problem. mine neither.

and speaking of that letter... My advice would be: go read it again but I'm sure that's pretty pointless.

[Knock-on]

Nothing like a bit of flame baiting :laugh:

Next we will be bringing up how Max and Bernie contrived Schumachers first WDC and orcherstrated Ferrari wins :rolleyes:

Naw, hopefully we're over all that as you should really try and do ioan.

McLaren were punished. End of story.

Max is not being punished for his personal life but how his personal life has lead him to become unfit to carry out his duties as President of the FIA. Subsequent allergations about illegal championship fixing and insider dealing must also be answered in my opinion making his poition at this tim untenable.

Me thinks flame threads like this will be short lived :laugh:

[Valve Bounce]

This is the first and last time I post on this thread. Just thought I'd let everyone know that I did read it but decided not to take part in this line of discussion. Ta!!

[SGWilko]

This is the first and last time I post on this thread. Just thought I'd let everyone know that I did read it but decided not to take part in this line of discussion. Ta!!

+1. I won't supply the fuel for ioan's fire.

[DonJippo]

Pointless thread and as such should be deleted IMHO.

[ioan]

+1. I won't supply the fuel for ioan's fire.

You could have supplied the water, but I guess you didn't have any! ;)

[ioan]

Pointless thread and as such should be deleted IMHO.

Hey, let's delete all the threads we don't like.
Whatever happened to free speech! :rolleyes:

[Knock-on]

Pointless thread and as such should be deleted IMHO.

+2

I agree. Just another excuse to start a flame thread.

It is like a pencil with no lead..... pointless.

[Oli_M]

Given that it was decided that it can be discussed in the other threads I decided to start one about this subject!

So, people say that Mosely should step down as head of the FIA because his private life actions are detrimental to the FIA and also to F1. This is a rather weird way of trying to condemn the unpopular president of the FIA, hypocritically using his private life and not his professional one!

Mostly the very same people believe, however, that Ron Dennis lying about his team spying on Ferrari and cheating during last season, were not detrimental to F1. they seem to forget how he was crying in front of the cameras, and how he was swearing that his teams integrity is untouched an so on, only to finish by releasing a public letter where they acknowledged that the team did extensively used the stolen Ferrari technical information!

What do you think, is it right that Ron Dennis dare stand besides the podium after being proved to be a liar and a cheater, but Mosley shouldn't because he was presented with uncovered backside on the internet in attempt to discredit him?!
Who's actions were more damaging to F1 in your opinion?

What a complete load of irrelevant, useless, pointless waste of internet space

[ioan]

Like if discussing Mosley's private life was useful to anyone around here. :rolleyes:

[Robinho]

RD is the figurehead of McLaren, and McLarens reputation was damaged by the scandal that he was undoubtdly involved in and eventually had to apologise for. they were penalised, but the team, and by association RD are able to continue to comete in F1. F1, the FIA and anyone outside the McLaren Mercedes organisation have no control over who is the Boss.

Max Mosely was caught indulging in a morally questionable, and lets not forget illegal act, albeit in private, but as a result has dragged scandal into the higher reaches of the FIA (not just F1 remember) but resolutley refuses to step down or say he did anything wrong, despite repeated calls form within the organisation he heads and the sports which the organisation runs - and also after taking a moral high ground over last years events.

if he'd been caught having an affiar i'd be with you, agreeing that private is private, he might be silly but it doesn't affect his job, but he represents a multinational multicultural organisation and many were offended by the antics - making IMO his position untenable.

if McLaren or Mercedes had decided the affairs of last year wee enought o oust RD they would have done, nothing to do with F1 or the FIA

[K-Pu]

I think this is a quite inflamable thread...

But I´ll say just one thing.
Mosley has been questioned an infinite number of times for various reasons, but NOW he´s on the brink of disaster because something he´s done in his private life. Trying to extend it to the professional field is quite stupid since maybe this has been happenig for a time (who knows) and Mad Max has been the same all the time. So what´s the difference?

IMHO this is the best excuse they´ve found to sack him... And I´m glad Mosley is sacked, but... this way? For this rather pointless thing? I could have thought of some better excuse!

[ioan]

Thanks for the few serious reactions.
It might be a very flammable thread, but I want to see how people think about actions of influent people that, depending on the POV of each of us, damaged the image of F1 in particular and motorsport in general.
Which is worse? Cheating during the competition or having an extra-marital affair?

[PSfan]

This is the first and last time I post on this thread. Just thought I'd let everyone know that I did read it but decided not to take part in this line of discussion. Ta!!




What a complete load of irrelevant, useless, pointless waste of internet space


+2

I agree. Just another excuse to start a flame thread.

It is like a pencil with no lead..... pointless.

IF YOU DON'T LIKE THE CONTENT OF A THREAD... DON'T POST IN IT!!!
I know that might seem like a hard concept to understand.

I completely agree with Ioan on this one... Its really odd to want or expect Mosley to step down after being caught or accused of something completely un-related to his job, and then suggest there is no connection what-so-ever when RD actually did some damage to the sport, and the calls for his head where no-where near as loud.


RD is the figurehead of McLaren, and McLarens reputation was damaged by the scandal that he was undoubtdly involved in and eventually had to apologise for. they were penalised, but the team, and by association RD are able to continue to comete in F1. F1, the FIA and anyone outside the McLaren Mercedes organisation have no control over who is the Boss.

I think that if the FIA and Max had wanted RD ousted, then they could have leveraged it last year.

[Big Ben]

Thanks for the few serious reactions.
It might be a very flammable thread, but I want to see how people think about actions of influent people that, depending on the POV of each of us, damaged the image of F1 in particular and motorsport in general.
Which is worse? Cheating during the competition or having an extra-marital affair?

"extra-marital affair" doesn't really cover the orgy element or the nazi one either... I'm sure you chose your words carefully. Your truth seems to be expressed always in inappropriate words.

I don't even get this. How does McLaren cheating affect FIA's image. It damaged their's. FIA's image might have been damaged by the way they dealt with the situation and if that's the case it's MM's fault... again.

[W8&C]

For me ist easy to decide whether I´d prefer questionable moves from a Team owner or a ridiculous doter who to have some fun needs his a$$ whipped by ladies who are children compared to his age. Combine that with him making a mockery of Nazi-victims (…you could ask your Sinti and Roma countrymen if they consider that as “his private stuff” as well̷) und you can easily detect who´s more despicable of that two and who damages F1 more.

And btw.: being FIA president means a little bit more than being concerned about some racing series. He represents the national automobile clubs where most members are respectable people!

[ioan]

"extra-marital affair" doesn't really cover the orgy element or the nazi one either... I'm sure you chose your words carefully. Your truth seems to be expressed always in inappropriate words.

I don't even get this. How does McLaren cheating affect FIA's image. It damaged their's. FIA's image might have been damaged by the way they dealt with the situation and if that's the case it's MM's fault... again.


For me ist easy to decide whether I´d prefer questionable moves from a Team owner or a ridiculous doter who to have some fun needs his a$$ whipped by ladies who are children compared to his age. Combine that with him making a mockery of Nazi-victims (…you could ask your Sinti and Roma countrymen if they consider that as “his private stuff” as well…) und you can easily detect who´s more despicable of that two and who damages F1 more.

And btw.: being FIA president means a little bit more than being concerned about some racing series. He represents the national automobile clubs where most members are respectable people!

I'm not sure about the "nazi" connotations you both invoke because I didn't lower myself to the level of watching the vids, and it was also reported that the "nazi" connotations are a bit far fetched and were introduced by the press just to make it look worse than it actually is (an extra-marital affair).

And I think that an orgy can be or not extra-marital for several reasons, but this isn't the subject of the thread.

Everyone talks about Max.
Let's balance the things out and bring Ron Dennis back in the picture. Lying to the whole world while his team was cheating is damaging for the image of F1 and he should have left, instead he is not at all shy from appearing at after race festivities after all he did.
At least Max keeps a low profile, but we couldn't expect Dennis to be so humble, he wasn't man enough to sign the letter where the team acknowledged that they used several Ferrari systems on their new car.

[K-Pu]

And btw.: being FIA president means a little bit more than being concerned about some racing series. He represents the national automobile clubs where most members are respectable people!

I´m sure they all have skeletons in the closet... Everybody has skeletons in the closet, and I don´t know a single high-positiones person who hasn´t an entire army of them. I wouldn´t bet on Mad Max being the only one with strange hobbies... And BTW, I prefer someone in his position to have these kind of "things" instead of being another Mr. Goshn.

I´m not defending Mosley since, as I said before, I thik it´s time for him to go out and give way to someone else, but I insist this a bit like backstabbing. And (as some book character would say) upon my oath I´m not a religious person, but as Jesus said: The one who´s free of sin may throw the first stone. In fact I wouldn´t dare to do it...

[DonJippo]

IF YOU DON'T LIKE THE CONTENT OF A THREAD... DON'T POST IN IT!!!
I know that might seem like a hard concept to understand.

For the next time you start shouting to me please try to learn to quote correctly as it is not a hard concept to understand...atleast not for most of us :rolleyes:

[ioan]

For the next time you start shouting to me please try to learn to quote correctly as it is not a hard concept to understand...atleast not for most of us :rolleyes:

Your post was even worse, so he was in fact doing you a favor. :rolleyes:

[PSfan]

For the next time you start shouting to me please try to learn to quote correctly as it is not a hard concept to understand...atleast not for most of us :rolleyes:


My aren't we the center of the universe... I made multiple quotes in that post, so I would describe it more as "shouting in a room" but hey, since you think its all about you... or all about me, since that post of your was completely unrelated to the thread or its topic...

and Also I am really sorry about misquoting you... so for the record again:



Pointless thread and as such should be deleted IMHO.


What a complete load of irrelevant, useless, pointless waste of internet space

So I will apologize to both Mr. Center of the Universe & Oli_M for making a "clerical" error with my cutting and pasting




I'm not sure about the "nazi" connotations you both invoke because I didn't lower myself to the level of watching the vids, and it was also reported that the "nazi" connotations are a bit far fetched and were introduced by the press just to make it look worse than it actually is (an extra-marital affair).

The Nazi element was included in the story, in order to print the story. I've read suggestions that in order to print a story of this nature, it has be be in the publics interest, and exposing MM's "Nazi" fetish was supposedly the way to accomplish this (I believe grandprix.xom phrased it better, but am to lazy to dig up the story...) of course, I think there are other threads for that revelation...



And btw.: being FIA president means a little bit more than being concerned about some racing series. He represents the national automobile clubs where most members are respectable people!

Um, that is just so funny... I just recently switched insurance companies, I do some online price quoting, and CAA is always amongst the cheapest 3 options. Until the MM story came out I hadn't associated CAA with the FIA, and had I known would have probably switched to them years ago just because I'm silly that way, and had intended on switching to them this time until they spent the time to condemn Mosley so called "orgy" which tells me they are not using their resources wisely. But I was very close to becoming a "respectable person" :p : (BTW: in order to get the cheap CAA auto insurance you also have to be a member of the club...)

So to actually post something on topic, I would also add that as far as damage to the sport, and the FIA's image, I would also include the Force India & Williams vs Honda, Super Aguri, Red Bull & Toro Rosso ugliness from last year as more damaging the Mosley being whipped or having sex with 5 women, as it actually relates to the sport...

[ioan]

So to actually post something on topic, I would also add that as far as damage to the sport, and the FIA's image, I would also include the Force India & Williams vs Honda, Super Aguri, Red Bull & Toro Rosso ugliness from last year as more damaging the Mosley being whipped or having sex with 5 women, as it actually relates to the sport...

Good point, I actually forgot about this aspect of the last season, which also lead to no customer cars being allowed and the demise of Super Aguri F1! So you are right it has damaged F1 more than max having his ass whipped!

[Bagwan]

"extra-marital affair" doesn't really cover the orgy element or the nazi one either... I'm sure you chose your words carefully. Your truth seems to be expressed always in inappropriate words.

I don't even get this. How does McLaren cheating affect FIA's image. It damaged their's. FIA's image might have been damaged by the way they dealt with the situation and if that's the case it's MM's fault... again.

Would this have been better if thet were dressed up as cowboys and girls ?
Maybe they could have gotten him to re-enact the slave trade . That might be a good one with which to catch him .

Let's remember this was a sting .
That's a set-up .
What if , perhaps , he'd never done anything but dressed up as cowboys and native North Americans ? Would that be worthy of ousting him ?

What if the hookers were dressed up as hookers ? Would that be bad enough ?


Just what more Max might have accomplished by going to the races , instead of his deputy , is pretty unclear .
There was no mention of mis-behavior by the deputy , so I think we can assume things went as planned . All official duties were accomplished by the one in place , and no embarrassment occurred , except to Max , himself .
The same can be said of all the races since the scandal broke .

The embarassment is Max's alone . Well , add MI5 for a moment of that time .


Your point that last year's scandal was mis-handled by Max is a better premise with which to argue for Max's departure .

But the point Ioan made was that this scandal is not affecting F1 like last year's .
This scandal does not affect his leadership negatively in the most important sense . That is , the decision making on the future of F1 .

You may argue that his decisions are faulted , but in no way does this scandal affect that .
Slag him for his wacky decisions , but leave his weird private life out of it .

[Tallgeese]

Let's be clear about something.

Ron Dennis was caught between a rock & a hard place, & Alonso will go down in history as a squeeler. He was practically crying to FIA "SUBPOENA ME!"


I don't see Ron Dennis as a problem to F1, nor can we say that Max Mosely can't carry out his duties in F1. Keep in mind, Mosely was pryed upon by certain groups who (may or may not be) linked to his opponents in FIA & ultimately I see the act of prying as worse that what occured (& was meant for) closed doors (besides, I'm not sure if his can be classified as anti-Nazi or pro-Nazi) but if making a big deal of somebody whose privacy was violated then it's fair to say that no body is without guilt in this game.

As for Ron Dennis, one cannot say that he's totally innocent, but what would you do once you find out that first-hand Ferrari data is being dispensed among your team? If he called Jean Todt (as Eccelstone suggested might have happened in the 'good old days that were probably not that good') then the Frenchman would simply have taken the matter to court then & there, joint statement or no joint statement. Best reponse, 'hear no evil/see no evil' (& realistically name me a director who would come forward to FIA to make a statement that he caught members of the team cheating). It's not that it doesn't occur, it's that most don't get caught or have a driver willing to turn them in.

[SGWilko]

IF YOU DON'T LIKE THE CONTENT OF A THREAD... DON'T POST IN IT!!!


Erm, wise words, you ought to listen to yourself every now and again! ;)

Sorry, I know I said I was not going to post in here again, but I'm at work, having got up at Sparrows Fart on a Saturday, and am currently waiting for the caffeine to kick in.....

Back to the thread topic........

Essentially, the difference, as I see it, so just my opinion.... Ron was not the instigator of any cheating. That was down to individuals working off their own back. If you think Ron is accountable, you need to apply the same logic to the culpability of Luca in respect of Stepney, but we won't go there, eh? ;)

When Ron did get wheat he saw as proof of cheating (from Fred, remember?), what did Ron do. As I see it, he did the right thing, and went straight to Max with it. Strange that, if he was hiding anything? Still, at least Fred did apologise for his outburst, so thats nice......

Now, if we turn to Max, whilst his perversion was in private, it is not any more. The biggest thing for me is his hypocracy in saying private stuff is irrelevant. He chose to ignore that rule when screwing McLaren over with the 'phone record stuff.

So, what is good for the Goose....... :)

Ferrari fans clearly are in Max's corner, the rest of F1 seem to be on the side of decency here.

And finally, the toll the spygate affair took on Ron, appears to have cost him his marriage, Max? Well, the old girl seems to be hangin' in there, doesn't she. Is that indicative of anything?

Would it not be funny, if the biggest beneficiary of money from the Max 'sting' was a copy shop nerd who drives a Ferrari?

Sting. How can it be a sting when Max instigated the hookers. You don't seriously believe he was innocently walking past the 'dungeon' when some tarts (can I say that?) asked for a few hours of his time for an orgy, and he just said, yeah, go on then......I know I'm being watched, but they won't see this, will they? :p :

[ioan]

Essentially, the difference, as I see it, so just my opinion.... Ron was not the instigator of any cheating. That was down to individuals working off their own back.

Ron was lying,he was saying that they had a carried out an internal investigation and the result was that no one knew about the Ferrari documents, it turned out that many engineers were aware of the Ferrari technical documentation and a few systems were copied on the new McLaren!

What kind of investigation was that? How long did it take? A few hours? How can you say your team is clean without a thorough investigation?!


If you think Ron is accountable, you need to apply the same logic to the culpability of Luca in respect of Stepney, but we won't go there, eh?

Are you aware of Stepney having stolen McLaren technical documentation?!
Not sure what you understand by "logic"! :rolleyes:


When Ron did get wheat he saw as proof of cheating (from Fred, remember?), what did Ron do. As I see it, he did the right thing, and went straight to Max with it. Strange that, if he was hiding anything?

Ron only went to Max after He knew that Alonso had given Bernie the proof that McLaren were using Ferrari classified info!
If Alonso wouldn't have done the move in an attempt to salvage his career than Ron wouldn't have gone to Max, no matter what he would have known.


Now, if we turn to Max, whilst his perversion was in private, it is not any more. The biggest thing for me is his hypocracy in saying private stuff is irrelevant. He chose to ignore that rule when screwing McLaren over with the 'phone record stuff.

I think that you are missing the fact that no one made public Coughlans or Stepney private stuff, only that they were text messaging each other very often while saying that they had no contact with eachother.



Ferrari fans clearly are in Max's corner, the rest of F1 seem to be on the side of decency here.

Decency means not to pry on someones private life! :rolleyes:


And finally, the toll the spygate affair took on Ron, appears to have cost him his marriage, Max?

:laugh:
You think that his wife left Ron because of the spygate? Maybe because she discovered what a hypocrite and a liar he is, and didn't want to be his next victim?
I can't see why she would leave him because of this otherwise.



Would it not be funny, if the biggest beneficiary of money from the Max 'sting' was a copy shop nerd who drives a Ferrari?

Are you jealous?!


Sting. How can it be a sting when Max instigated the hookers. You don't seriously believe he was innocently walking past the 'dungeon' when some tarts (can I say that?) asked for a few hours of his time for an orgy, and he just said, yeah, go on then......I know I'm being watched, but they won't see this, will they?

I think you need to have your coffee before posting next time, that might help you with the "logic"! :p :

[Tallgeese]

As was said, Dennis didn't order Ferrari data to be taken. The scandal impacts on F1, & his handling was less than perfect, but then again, how should he handle such a situation? It's not like Todt wouldn't have demanded the book be thrown at Dennis & McLaren-Mercedes. On top of that, I feel that the British Lobby in F1 initially backed McLaren on this one.

I am not a fan of Mosly but I don't think that his role as FIA President should be compromised. Yes, it damages FIA & so on, but let's be clear that
prying into his private life (not what goes on in his private life) is most damaging thing here & Mosley should be treated as a victim of the invasion of privacy & whatever he did/does shouldn't be considered in the matter. A 'sting' operation such as this is largely bad for F1 & FIA if he is forced to be taken out.

[SGWilko]

Ron was lying,he was saying that they had a carried out an internal investigation and the result was that no one knew about the Ferrari documents, it turned out that many engineers were aware of the Ferrari technical documentation and a few systems were copied on the new McLaren!
What kind of investigation was that? How long did it take? A few hours? How can you say your team is clean without a thorough investigation?!

Can you be sure that is the case? If you were a McLaren employee, being asked about cheating, and knew what repurcussions might be forthcoming, would you roll over and have your belly tickled. Remember that the coughlans of this world have deceived a lot of people for their own attempted personal gain (trying to get a lucrative position at Honda...). Would McLaren have been allowed to pry into personal records a la the Ferrari criminal investigation where much of the FIA info came from?




Are you aware of Stepney having stolen McLaren technical documentation?!
Not sure what you understand by "logic"!

Got no idea, no-one is saying, but he has alluded to a two-way flow of info.... We know he stole Ferrari information, or at least, that's what Ferrari say. Stepney I think remains resolute in his denial of this IIRC.




Ron only went to Max after He knew that Alonso had given Bernie the proof that McLaren were using Ferrari classified info!
If Alonso wouldn't have done the move in an attempt to salvage his career than Ron wouldn't have gone to Max, no matter what he would have known.

This is old ground, and a mod somewhere is going to throw his toys out the pram, but if Alonso had not given the verbal proof that such info existed, can you not see that Ron would have remained unaware of it?




I think that you are missing the fact that no one made public Coughlans or Stepney private stuff, only that they were text messaging each other very often while saying that they had no contact with eachother.

Is there anything to make public. Are phone companies allowed or even capable of maintaining a list of the contents of every text message sent? Do you have any idea how many Terrabytes of storage that would require, given how many texts are sent at any one time.....?


Decency means not to pry on someones private life! Not guilty of prying here, coffee or not. ;)





You think that his wife left Ron because of the spygate? Maybe because she discovered what a hypocrite and a liar he is, and didn't want to be his next victim?
I can't see why she would leave him because of this otherwise.

We will never know.....




Are you jealous?! At the current price of fuel, and to breath in Toner fumes all day? Nah, I'd much rather stick to my 2CV and suffer noise pollution from the server room.... ;) Domestic Management might be though, she's always wanted a Ferrari. :laugh:




I think you need to have your coffee before posting next time, that might help you with the "logic"! :p : You could well be right, but then I did allude to that at the start of my post..... ;)

[Jag_Warrior]

Like if discussing Mosley's private life was useful to anyone around here. :rolleyes:

Any discussion that involves Nazi hookers is always useful. :D

[PSfan]

Erm, wise words, you ought to listen to yourself every now and again! ;)

For the record I have never posted in a thread I had no interest in the content

I have also NEVER asked for a thread to be closed (though I may have predicted that outcome in a few.

So as for the word of wisdom I shared in this thread, I already follow it... *sticks tongue out*


Sorry, I know I said I was not going to post in here again, but I'm at work, having got up at Sparrows Fart on a Saturday, and am currently waiting for the caffeine to kick in.....

Seems to me you said you wouldn't add fuel to ioan's fire he started here.. and now your bringing some logs... *sticks tongue out*



Back to the thread topic........

Essentially, the difference, as I see it, so just my opinion.... Ron was not the instigator of any cheating. That was down to individuals working off their own back. If you think Ron is accountable, you need to apply the same logic to the culpability of Luca in respect of Stepney, but we won't go there, eh? ;)

When Ron did get wheat he saw as proof of cheating (from Fred, remember?), what did Ron do. As I see it, he did the right thing, and went straight to Max with it. Strange that, if he was hiding anything? Still, at least Fred did apologise for his outburst, so thats nice......

Now, if we turn to Max, whilst his perversion was in private, it is not any more. The biggest thing for me is his hypocracy in saying private stuff is irrelevant. He chose to ignore that rule when screwing McLaren over with the 'phone record stuff.

So, what is good for the Goose....... :)

I still don't think you grasp the heart of this thread.

The FIA deals with motorsport governance and road safety, no where in their charter suggests they have anything to do with human morals, dominatrixs, or hookers...

Since this thread deals with who has "damaged the sport of F1" we can recap and debate RD's guilt in the spygate saga but ultimately he and/or Mcleran are guilty of crimes that dirctly affect F1 as a sport, while one could argue that MM's crimes (and that is a stretch...) are not even remotely related... the actually damage being done is from the press.


Ferrari fans clearly are in Max's corner, the rest of F1 seem to be on the side of decency here.

I could probably say that its McLeran fans that are most upset about this and be as accurate as that statement.

I have NEVER been a ferrari fan, and I also don't see my point of view being indecent. I'll repeat my statement Ron Dennis has done more damage to F1 then Max Mosley's romp in the dungeon because Ron Dennis' crimes where done directly to the sport of F1

[SGWilko]

For the record I have never posted in a thread I had no interest in the content

That was tongue in cheek y'know.... Kinda like to say don't moan about posts that moan, almost an oxymoron I think? :) ;) :p :