F1 too pleased with itself?

[seppefan]

With Bernie taking F1 to the highest bidder and empty grandstands to boot at some of the new races I wonder how long things can carry on as is. Monaco or Indy 500 to watch next weekend. Well the lucky ones will see both but I reckon I know which one will be the most entertaining. With US open wheel racing unified Bernie had better get the "racing " spectacle going in F1 if he wants to repay the debt on CVC's borrowings.

Yesterday Lorenzo came secong in the MotoGP race with two broken ankles. The drivers all had a laugh. Rossi stopped after winning and Nieto rode the bike back to the paddock with Rossi behind him. In F1 the winner cannot grab a national flag, do a doughnut or be anything but grey and boring. The MotoGP racing was fast and furious. Overtaking happened, yes its true. Watch Indy for that as well. F1 is loosing touch with reality and putting on a show that requires Mark Hughes to explain really what is going on.

I know many here will think I am talking rubbish but having followed F1 since I was six or so I have/had a deep affection which I am loosing. They are all so pleased with themselves that I am actually starting to find I care a lot less than I wanted.

At least I have the 125's, 250's, MotoGP, IRL, but if others start to think like this ( and many do ).

Just wait for a F1 sponsor to go to the IRL...and it will happen.

[F1boat]

On the other hand, in the DTM there is even less overtaking than in F-1 ;)

[Ranger]

With Bernie taking F1 to the highest bidder and empty grandstands to boot at some of the new races I wonder how long things can carry on as is. Monaco or Indy 500 to watch next weekend. Well the lucky ones will see both but I reckon I know which one will be the most entertaining. With US open wheel racing unified Bernie had better get the "racing " spectacle going in F1 if he wants to repay the debt on CVC's borrowings.

Yesterday Lorenzo came secong in the MotoGP race with two broken ankles. The drivers all had a laugh. Rossi stopped after winning and Nieto rode the bike back to the paddock with Rossi behind him. In F1 the winner cannot grab a national flag, do a doughnut or be anything but grey and boring. The MotoGP racing was fast and furious. Overtaking happened, yes its true. Watch Indy for that as well. F1 is loosing touch with reality and putting on a show that requires Mark Hughes to explain really what is going on.

I know many here will think I am talking rubbish but having followed F1 since I was six or so I have/had a deep affection which I am loosing. They are all so pleased with themselves that I am actually starting to find I care a lot less than I wanted.

At least I have the 125's, 250's, MotoGP, IRL, but if others start to think like this ( and many do ).

Just wait for a F1 sponsor to go to the IRL...and it will happen.

Improved 'racing' will hopefully be one of the benefits of the 2009 F1 regulations, so hopefully they will be more condusive to racing than the past few years' regs.

Other than that I agree with your post. Although MotoGP has to revert to no TC sooner rather than later. Whilst still head and shoulders above most racing series in terms of racing, going from 990cc to 800cc has been disappointing from a racing perspective.

[ShiftingGears]

My main problem with F1 is its propensity to go to boring circuits to try and solve the lack of passing instead of fixing problems inherent in the regulations of the cars. F1 needs more faster and twistier circuits - the driver's circuits.

MotoGP is great but I'm more into car racing. As for the IRL - haven't seen it. But Champ Car was great, especially some of their venues.

[ArrowsFA1]

I know many here will think I am talking rubbish but having followed F1 since I was six or so I have/had a deep affection which I am loosing. They are all so pleased with themselves that I am actually starting to find I care a lot less than I wanted.
Is it a sign of getting old? "Things aren't what they used to be" and all that? :p :

Having said that, there is an arrogance about F1 that leads it to believe its position at the top of the motorsport ladder is unassailable. That attitude, unchecked, may eventually prove to be its undoing.

[Knock-on]

Is it a sign of getting old? "Things aren't what they used to be" and all that? :p :

Having said that, there is an arrogance about F1 that leads it to believe its position at the top of the motorsport ladder is unassailable. That attitude, unchecked, may eventually prove to be its undoing.

I thought you gave up the notion of getting old years ago :p :

Compared to a few years ago, F1 is improving, slowly.

Lets hope it continues.

How will F1 win back the fans though because there is still a perception that it's boring which is criminal for a sport like F1.

F1 = Boring is like accusing Julian Clary of being straight

[aryan]

F1 is loosing touch with reality and putting on a show that requires Mark Hughes to explain really what is going on.

All subjective. The only thing that matters is TV ratings, and as long as the figures keep improving (which they have for the past couple of years) then there is nothing wrong with F1, from a business point of view.


having followed F1 since I was six or so I have/had a deep affection which I am loosing. They are all so pleased with themselves that I am actually starting to find I care a lot less than I wanted.




Something similar happened to me about football (soccer). I watched it passionately and eagerly since I was a kid, following all the national teams and clubs and crying tears of joy when Manchester United won the treble.

Then I suddenly found myself losing interest slowly but surely from about 2000. Now a days I barely know any of the modern players.

But that doesn't mean football has is worst than it was in the past century. Only that my taste has changed.

Something similar might be happening to you and F1.

[I am evil Homer]

Maybe Bernie's attitude is that for every European or "traditional" fan he loses, he gains 3 in Asia or the Middle East where he wants more GPs?

[BDunnell]

How will F1 win back the fans though because there is still a perception that it's boring which is criminal for a sport like F1.

I think this is probably the biggest problem for F1 in terms of its perception. However, there are other things at play, and being 'too pleased with itself' might be quite a good summation. Even leaving aside the dislike of F1 that some have developed for environmental reasons, I can understand why many are turned off by its conspicuous display of wealth and big business. This may once have been OK, but now it is starting to seem vulgar and arrogant. It certainly isn't glamorous in the proper sense of the word.

[ArrowsFA1]

This might be worth a read in light of this thread:
http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/67562

Briatore - "We never learn from our mistakes, we just spend more money."

[BDunnell]

This might be worth a read in light of this thread:
http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/67562

Briatore - "We never learn from our mistakes, we just spend more money."

Some very good, perceptive points are made by those interviewed for that article. What, then, is holding F1 back from becoming more attractive and less arrogant? I can think of a couple of possible answers...

[ShiftingGears]

Briatore - "We never learn from our mistakes, we just spend more money."

That is a great quote.

[Whyzars]

There is no 'ragged' edge in F1 anymore and the teams have had reliability foisted upon them which is an unnatural state for a racing team. The cars are now to the point that mechanical failure is no longer a variable in racing for the top teams.

In my opinion, the cars and the drivers have become so good that F1 racing looks too easy. There are different drivers winning the races but they are winning each race the same way. The poll driver generally leads the entire race and most passing occurs during pit stops.

I have always considered 2kg ballast per WDC point handicap as being the way to even up the field. Either that or narrower wheels. :)

[V12]

Certainly in the past 10 years I've noticed F1 get progressively less and less interesting every season. It's nothing to do with how "boring" the racing is for me to be honest, I mean when I started watching it in 1992 (when my interest in the sport was also at it's peak) Mansell was winning races by over a minute and taking pole by upwards of 2 or 3 seconds at some races. In the "good old days" of the 50s and 60s you'd get drivers also winning races by huge margins.

And before I am (rightly) accused of some sort of Mansell-bias in this assessment, 2002 was a Schumacher (who I could never stand) and Ferrari benefit, yet it was still better for me IMO than any year that has followed it.

Since then we've had a multitude of silly qualifying formats, engine change penalties, parc ferme regulations, engine homologation, 2.4 litre V8s, spec tyres, and that other stupid rule that says you HAVE to use two compounds of tyres in one race.

And what do we have to look forward to in the future? Well, unenforceable budget caps for one, and the equally unenforceable wind tunnel ban, not to mention this whole "KERS" soap opera (just legalise the concept and let the teams get on with it, or not get on with it, whatever they choose). And all the while Bernie will be sitting on a huge pile of cash while he organises new GPs in French Polynesia, Siberia and The Moon.

But to be honest I think it's not a case of F1 being too pleased with itself, if anything, in the past decade or so F1 has constantly been in a panic, running around trying to fix things which aren't broken - and obviously breaking them in the process. And it gets worse and worse every season. If you ask me the whole thing needs tearing down and being started again from scratch.

IMHO of course.

[Garry Walker]

At least I have the 125's, 250's, MotoGP, IRL, but if others start to think like this ( and many do ).

Just wait for a F1 sponsor to go to the IRL...and it will happen.

Good bye then, happy watching of IRL with their 100000 overtakings per race, it is massively interesting.

[AndyRAC]

Certainly in the past 10 years I've noticed F1 get progressively less and less interesting every season. It's nothing to do with how "boring" the racing is for me to be honest, I mean when I started watching it in 1992 (when my interest in the sport was also at it's peak) Mansell was winning races by over a minute and taking pole by upwards of 2 or 3 seconds at some races. In the "good old days" of the 50s and 60s you'd get drivers also winning races by huge margins.

And before I am (rightly) accused of some sort of Mansell-bias in this assessment, 2002 was a Schumacher (who I could never stand) and Ferrari benefit, yet it was still better for me IMO than any year that has followed it.

Since then we've had a multitude of silly qualifying formats, engine change penalties, parc ferme regulations, engine homologation, 2.4 litre V8s, spec tyres, and that other stupid rule that says you HAVE to use two compounds of tyres in one race.

And what do we have to look forward to in the future? Well, unenforceable budget caps for one, and the equally unenforceable wind tunnel ban, not to mention this whole "KERS" soap opera (just legalise the concept and let the teams get on with it, or not get on with it, whatever they choose). And all the while Bernie will be sitting on a huge pile of cash while he organises new GPs in French Polynesia, Siberia and The Moon.

But to be honest I think it's not a case of F1 being too pleased with itself, if anything, in the past decade or so F1 has constantly been in a panic, running around trying to fix things which aren't broken - and obviously breaking them in the process. And it gets worse and worse every season. If you ask me the whole thing needs tearing down and being started again from scratch.

IMHO of course.

If you think F1 has problems, I'd hate to think what you think of the WRC. Now that really does have problems. At least F1 has the interest of the big Manufacturers, and while that is the case things aren't too bad. Yeah, things aren't perfect, the chopping of changes of qualifying, regs, etc can't help.

[V12]

< OT alert >

Ah....don't get me started on the WRC, I totally agree. Taking our national event in isolation it has gone from a glorious tour of Great Britain to verging on a few laps of a car park in Wales somewhere, and all that Super Rally stuff...argh. I hear from the MotoGP guys that even that form of racing has gone a little downhill in the past couple of years (although I actually enjoy it when I watch a race). In fact IndyCar with the merger is the only form of motorsport on an upswing (IMO) at the minute, and even that is still a de-facto spec series with a female midpacker as its most recognizable "star" for the forseeable future anyway...

< /OT alert >

I just think that F1, and indeed all forms of motor sport, would be best served getting back to the essence of what it is about with no gimmicks and BS, sometimes it will be a bit of a procession, on occasions it will have you on the edge of your seat (and therefore be appreciated much more than if the "drama" was fabricated every fortnight), some people will love it for what it is, some will watch casually because they have nothing better to do and may (like myself in 1991) be sucked in, or maybe not, and others will not care for it and watch football and soaps.

But money talks I guess!

[wedge]

15 years from now, the new generation of F1 fans will be saying how great this decade was.

[AndyRAC]

Motorsport is no different to any other sport, but when it becomes more professional, media savvy and polished - the big money rolls in, then all the old charm and character is lost. It's happened to all Motorsport. Just look at F1 now, it's a highly professional, highly polished media event. What happens on track is merely part of the story. Sadly, it looks as though MotoGP is starting to go that way - even if it is slowly.
Yes it would be nice if a private team could turn up with a cheap customer engine and a year old chassis and race. It's not what Bernie wants is it? F1 is now meant to be 'exclusive' - only the elite can join. Sad!!

[veeten]

another quote from the article, by Nick Fry...

The real mission for F1 is to attract a Volkswagen, an Audi or another big consumer business into the sport and not attempt to bring in more privateers, who may end up in the same position as teams like Arrows and Prost.

The problem, both in the past and at present, is that the numbers for the cost of running an F1 program was crunched by these same entities, and was passed over for other options.

Flavio Briatore said it best, when recounting his past experience incomparison to the present climate...

I remember when I sold Ligier [in 1997] – there were six or seven people interested in buying the team. There were people queuing up to buy it. What has happened with Super Aguri sends out the clear message that fewer people are interested in investing in an F1 team these days.

The real worrying aspect for Formula 1 is a matter of what will happen in IndyCar by '10. If the new chassis & engine rules prove to be what the market considers favorable, we could see a return to what they were from '89 to '95 under CART; a considerable force and a constant pressure point for FOM & the FIA.

[seppefan]

Good bye then, happy watching of IRL with their 100000 overtakings per race, it is massively interesting.


So glad you agree and dont forget the Bikes and road and street courses.

[Tallgeese]

With Bernie taking F1 to the highest bidder and empty grandstands to boot at some of the new races I wonder how long things can carry on as is. Monaco or Indy 500 to watch next weekend. Well the lucky ones will see both but I reckon I know which one will be the most entertaining. With US open wheel racing unified Bernie had better get the "racing " spectacle going in F1 if he wants to repay the debt on CVC's borrowings.

Yesterday Lorenzo came secong in the MotoGP race with two broken ankles. The drivers all had a laugh. Rossi stopped after winning and Nieto rode the bike back to the paddock with Rossi behind him. In F1 the winner cannot grab a national flag, do a doughnut or be anything but grey and boring. The MotoGP racing was fast and furious. Overtaking happened, yes its true. Watch Indy for that as well. F1 is loosing touch with reality and putting on a show that requires Mark Hughes to explain really what is going on.

I know many here will think I am talking rubbish but having followed F1 since I was six or so I have/had a deep affection which I am loosing. They are all so pleased with themselves that I am actually starting to find I care a lot less than I wanted.

At least I have the 125's, 250's, MotoGP, IRL, but if others start to think like this ( and many do ).

Just wait for a F1 sponsor to go to the IRL...and it will happen.


No offence but the Indy 500 has got to be one of the dumbest races (or really things) ever concieved! What's so exciting about watching low-technology open-wheel cars take corners like a pack of wolves? It's almost as dull as NASCAR!

F1's drivers lack the personalities would would have hoped for, but for all the wrong reasons. On the other hand, I didn't watch F1 to hear the post-race conferences, I watch racing & yes, we would use tighter competition & more over-taking in the front-row, but it's only two years post-Schumacher, & Ferrari's momentum is yanning down as Schumacher's legacy passes by year after year.

McLaren-Mercedes were clearly a better all-round team last year, BMW Sauber have shown that they have the potential for dramatic improvements, & of course, as drivers are now more evenly matched in the post-Schumacher period, things should go back to to more lively racing. No body before Schumacher ever remained too dominant. Imagin how many titles Senna would have won had Prost, Mansell, or Piquet never existed? I doubt those who happened to win would have been charismatic, especially knowing that they had no chance on a normal day.

[Tallgeese]

I think this is probably the biggest problem for F1 in terms of its perception. However, there are other things at play, and being 'too pleased with itself' might be quite a good summation. Even leaving aside the dislike of F1 that some have developed for environmental reasons, I can understand why many are turned off by its conspicuous display of wealth and big business. This may once have been OK, but now it is starting to seem vulgar and arrogant. It certainly isn't glamorous in the proper sense of the word.


I disagree.

F1 is the world's premier motorsport & naturally if horse-racing the was sport of the Kings then F1 is the sport of the corporations.

IRL/ChampCar, or whatever, are just American open-wheelers because Americans must always be different. Football = American Football, Handball = Basketball, Cricket = Baseball, F1 = IRL & of course, Americans have different tastes in everything. They won't admit that F1 is technically superior & has far faster cars & regulations but they will (often) say that their racing is 'more exciting' but personally I find 'American Racing' to be boring & too 'American' such that I cannot even bother to watch it for a second. I mean, oval courses & D-shaped tracks? What is that?

F1 isn't all about how well you can turn a wheel & change gears, it's about setting a car up at the deepest technical levels, & about going through the procedures. An F1 driver also has to be a good mechanic, & must contribute to the development of the car. On the other hand, the IRL drivers are just a little more than 'stick & wheel' dumbies.

[DexDexter]

People are always complaining no matter what, I see nothing wrong with the sport in a sense that it really isn't any less exciting than say 1988. It's you people that change and get bored but there are always new fans, like the Spaniards now. you cannot make F1 any more exciting as long as the teams and drivers have the level of professionalism they now do. Changing rules doesn't matter, the best team/driver is still going to qualify front and lead from there and that's the way it should be, it's a sport, not a show. So if you are hoping that the new regulations will mean that Force Indias start overtaking Mclarens out of the bloom, then dream on.

[Tallgeese]

People are always complaining no matter what, I see nothing wrong with the sport in a sense that it really isn't any less exciting than say 1988. It's you people that change and get bored but there are always new fans, like the Spaniards now. you cannot make F1 any more exciting as long as the teams and drivers have the level of professionalism they now do. Changing rules doesn't matter, the best team/driver is still going to qualify front and lead from there and that's the way it should be, it's a sport, not a show. So if you are hoping that the new regulations will mean that Force Indias start overtaking Mclarens out of the bloom, then dream on.

Interesting argument but I tend to disagree. The rule changes of 2005 were questionable at best but they did blunt Schumacher sufficient to let two kids get past him. Yes, he was always the man to beat, but in the end, one could argue that he had the best car on his side. I would say that in 2002 & 2004 (the F2002 & F2004) were by & large too fast for everybody else, but 2000, 2001, & 2003 were much closer calls but Schumacher asserted his superiority never-the-less. A measure with his team-mate Rubens Barrichello only twice came second (2002 & 2004) to Schumacher himself, & that would seem to suggest that the car itself may not have been powerful as many thought. Yes, it was probably tailored for Schumacher's driving style but would a version designed for Barrichello's driving style have gotten them the championship? I doubt it.

I think what organisers have forgotten is that Schumacher has retired, & now the competition is going to narrow up. It's probable that the momentum he left still resonates in the Ferrari squad, but even it is dying down. Ferrari don't seem as invicible as they did during his reign & McLaren-Mercedes will only get stronger & stronger with Lewis Hamilton & Heikki Kovalainen & with BMW Sauber pushing hard & Renault on a come-back of sorts one gets the impression that the gap between drivers is no longer what it was when Schumacher (aka The Dominator) was around.

[markabilly]

15 years from now, the new generation of F1 fans will be saying how great this decade was.
You mean how great this debacle was..........

[markabilly]

Having said that, there is an arrogance about F1 that leads it to believe its position at the top of the motorsport ladder is unassailable. That attitude, unchecked, may eventually prove to be its undoing.



Oh no, everyone with f1 is sssoooo humble, that could never happen ever....just check the thread about Marco and micheal being sabotaged or whatever

[Tallgeese]

I see that American-based series are too proud of themselves. All these American ads go, "the toughest race in the world" or "the fastest cars in the world" & so on, but we all know that it's only in 'Planet America' & not the rest of the world.

[aryan]

"fastest cars in the world"

:rotflmao:

Well our American friends call their Baseball league "the world series", when no one really knows what baseball is outside of US and Japan. That should tell you something...

[ShiftingGears]

Might I add that yesterdays grand prix was brilliant, and pretty much defined why I watch F1.

[Tallgeese]

"fastest cars in the world"

:rotflmao:

Well our American friends call their Baseball league "the world series", when no one really knows what baseball is outside of US and Japan. That should tell you something...

Tells us a lot.

Americans can't win at international sports so they invent their own sports to make up for their inability to do so. Yes, they may win more medals at the Olympics, but when you consider 'Europe' as a country then it's at least one medal for every three for the Europeans! Besides, they also lost at basketball. To my knowledge baseball is now coming second in Japan.

[nigelred5]

Yes.

That's what happens when his primary function is to maximize the bottom line for the series owners via holding traditional tracks ransome and blackmailing third world governments into spending what is the equivalent of many nation's GNP to simply hold an event few local persons can afford to attend. He might as well move it all to a soundstage and add in some digital animation.

[aryan]

Tells us a lot. they may win more medals at the Olympics

The only reason I miss the USSR is that the past couple of Olympics have been so predictable in terms of medals. Well maybe this year China will give them a run for their money and then I'll have some reason to cheer for the Americans :p

OK, now we are officially off topic. Sorry.

[Tallgeese]

Yes.

That's what happens when his primary function is to maximize the bottom line for the series owners via holding traditional tracks ransome and blackmailing third world governments into spending what is the equivalent of many nation's GNP to simply hold an event few local persons can afford to attend. He might as well move it all to a soundstage and add in some digital animation.


Yeah right.

These 'third world governments' are corporations in these developing countries (emerging economies) such as Malaysia, China, Turkey etc & soon India, S.Korea & the UAE who happen to find it profitable. No governments involved here except maybe a President, King or PM may hand a trophy to the winner.

[Zico]

Might I add that yesterdays grand prix was brilliant, and pretty much defined why I watch F1.

Couldnt agree more.. fantastic!.. it had all the qualities required. If all the F1 races in the calendar were as exciting as the race we just witnessed in Monaco, F1 would be in the best health it possibly could be. What does that fact say about the steps F1 should take to improve?

[AndyRAC]

"fastest cars in the world"

:rotflmao:

Well our American friends call their Baseball league "the world series", when no one really knows what baseball is outside of US and Japan. That should tell you something...

I'm no defender of American meglomania, but it's called the "World Series" because the newspaper 'The World' sponsored the first series, and it's kept the name ever since.

Anyway, I've said before, when F1 is good it's very good. Sunday's race was fantastic, and a reminder why I watch it.

[ShiftingGears]

Couldnt agree more.. fantastic!.. it had all the qualities required. If all the F1 races in the calendar were as exciting as the race we just witnessed in Monaco, F1 would be in the best health it possibly could be. What does that fact say about the steps F1 should take to improve?

I disagree - I think part of a healthy series is having variety in the races. If all the races were as extraordinary as Monaco then they relatively wouldn't be extraordinary would they? :p : But I suppose that comes down to which teams/drivers are the best on the day and having regulations giving the drivers the opportunity to pass when they are close to each other.

[aryan]

I'm no defender of American meglomania, but it's called the "World Series" because the newspaper 'The World' sponsored the first series, and it's kept the name ever since.


Forgive my ignorance then :) . One more reason for me to shut my mouth about topics I don't have any clue about, Baseball just being one of the many!

[Tallgeese]

I don't know why Americans look at F1 & feel uneasy about it. Why, because there are no Americans & very little sponosership these days? Who knows what the real reason is, but Americans enjoy their ovals, & odd tracks (not to mention motor-racing traditions) where the rest of the world is into F1.

In my view that is a good thing because F1 rejects can go to IRL or NASCAR or whatever, & make a name for themselves. F1 will always be open to Americans but as long as there's 'Planet America' I don't see how one F1 GP (or even two or three) in the US is going to entertain the masses. Besides, with no American manufacturers or drivers (let alone good ones) few would be interested. Some (like Renault) don't even have a dealer in every US state (if at all) so to them the USGP is just a waste of time.

Perhaps there was a time when Montoya & Villenevue attracted interest for being former IRL/CART racers who made it into F1 & were back to Indy (where they won the 500s) & were racing in the inside track rather than the oval. Could have been out of curiosity to see how US open-wheel graduates & champions performed at the ultimate level back at Indy itself!