Road position bull****

[Daniel]

I'm a bit surprised there hasn't been a thread about this. I know it's making for closer finishes and a variety of winners but the way road position is done on gravel events is a joke. I thought back in 2001 the FIA understood this when they tested out different rules for starting position in Australia with the top 8 drivers nominating their position.

But now we have the rather stupid situation where a driver can get a puncture or have problems which drop them back and as long as their car is good enough they can climb back up to higher placings.

I wonder how long before we see the situation where drivers actually stop on stage like drivers used to do.....

There is no way that JML and Mikko deserve to be breathing up Seb's neck on day three when they made mistakes/had problems on earlier days.....

[Ghostwalker]

i agree with you Daniel. its obvious that starting first usually means as disadvantage and that this season if they are behind after day 1 or 2 they can benefit from better road position. FIA have screwd up as usual.
I Alway wondred why some of those who perform good in motorsport are punished by either starting positions (wrc rally) or extra weights racing) coz it will ruin the championship and possible prevent the best driver from winning the championship.

[alleskids]

I Alway wondred why some of those who perform good in motorsport are punished by either starting positions (wrc rally) or extra weights racing) coz it will ruin the championship and possible prevent the best driver from winning the championship.

To have exciting championships that are only decided in te last minuts of the last race/rally. Next step is a only 1 race championship of 3 minuts. So everybod has a change to become champion and it gives a very exciting race/rally :(

[Audimadgeoff]

It doesn't seem to be slowing Loeb and gang down today.

I've often thought of solutions, and seen some good ideas. In the Scottish championship the 2wd's run first on the road, in the BTRDA in the UK the 1400cc cars compete ahead of the main field.

What about allowing a national event with restricted entries to run first on WRC events? Example - Wales Rally GB also counts for the British Championship, so if you had the BRC crews runnnig first then they wouldn't complain about rutted roads. Run the top 30 in the BRC, then a 30 minute gap (to pick up the pieces) before the WRC boys. The same could surely work on most events?

[J4MIE]

Good idea Geoff but not many events are part of their national championship (though I think it should be, but never mind).

The other thing is that it might rain and be better to be first on the road then, in which case people would complain about it.

As for the SRC using 2WD cars first....it is sh*t :(

[jonkka]

Top drivers in top cars use entirely different driving lines. Hence running slower drivers in slower cars first wouldn't help nothing at all with the gravel sweeping.

[Audimadgeoff]

Top drivers in top cars use entirely different driving lines. Hence running slower drivers in slower cars first wouldn't help nothing at all with the gravel sweeping. you obviously haven't seen some of the driving styles in the UK - those further down the field tend to clean everything... the road, the undergrowth and occassionally the sides of their cars! :D

i think it doesn't matter what the rules are, there are some that will always be unhappy!

[jonkka]

you obviously haven't seen some of the driving styles in the UK - those further down the field tend to clean everything... the road, the undergrowth and occassionally the sides of their cars! :D

They drive one of these? :eek:

http://www.germes-online.com/direct/dbimage/50284407/Road_Sweeper.jpg

[cosmicpanda]

I think it's a good idea.

On the stages I had to explain to my less well informed friends that Loeb and Gronholm, even though they were the last WRCs on the road, were actually ahead of those guys who were first. This way it's easier for spectators to understand - the person who's first is first on the road, etc.

I don't think it's any more unfair than lumping the last-placed WRC car with the job of sweeping and preventing them from any real hope of gaining positions.

One argument I have heard in favor of long distance events is that they will enable a greater variety of stages, more endurance, less sprint, sensible driving, etc. But it seems that when we get these things in the WRC these days - Cyprus, tactics in Jordan, drivers cruising - people just compain!

Running the drivers in this order tends to compress the field as we're seeing today in Italy and maintain the excitement in the event as opposed to the drivers crusing.

[Lousada]

They should have the Superally WRC-drivers go first.

[Zico]

They should have the Superally WRC-drivers go first.

Great idea!... and by running the S2000 cars through 1st on day 1.... Problem solved.





As for the SRC using 2WD cars first....it is sh*t :(

The 4wd cars rip up the stages so badly, the stages are all but destroyed by the time the 2wd cars come through.
I guess u cant keep everyone happy but on balance I think its the fairest possible way.

[White Sauron]

There is no way that JML and Mikko deserve to be breathing up Seb's neck on day three when they made mistakes/had problems on earlier days.....

Why? Mikko just made up what he lost by sweeping the road on Friday. And I think it's fair. Because otherwise it would have been everything in favour of Loeb. On friday he builds a gap thanks to his road position, and the next day he is ableto even increase it because he is given even better conditions! That would have been a real bull****! And in the current situation Loeb at least experienced what put Mikko at such a disadvantage on Friday. I think it's all fair and square at least for Hirvonen this weekend.

[ste898]

There is no way that JML and Mikko deserve to be breathing up Seb's neck on day three when they made mistakes/had problems on earlier days.....

What a load of bull they drove awesome stages and that is why they were up with Loeb.......making my wann puke the way everything is for Loeb!!!
I'm sure if he (Loeb) starts crying about being caught the rules on road position will get changed.

[cut the b.s.]

What a load of bull they drove awesome stages and that is why they were up with Loeb.......making my wann puke the way everything is for Loeb!!!
I'm sure if he (Loeb) starts crying about being caught the rules on road position will get changed.


You will see this working against Ford before the year is out, its the fact that it is creating a false competition is the issue. As it stands now the 1st 2 days of the rally are going to have less meaning as drivers jostle to not be in the lead coming into sunday.
Loeb is the best driver in the WRC at present but I think most people here like to see Mikko or YML winning, but on a fair playing field, this running position thing is just a form of success balast

[Daniel]

I think it's a good idea.

On the stages I had to explain to my less well informed friends that Loeb and Gronholm, even though they were the last WRCs on the road, were actually ahead of those guys who were first. This way it's easier for spectators to understand - the person who's first is first on the road, etc.

I don't think it's any more unfair than lumping the last-placed WRC car with the job of sweeping and preventing them from any real hope of gaining positions.

One argument I have heard in favor of long distance events is that they will enable a greater variety of stages, more endurance, less sprint, sensible driving, etc. But it seems that when we get these things in the WRC these days - Cyprus, tactics in Jordan, drivers cruising - people just compain!

Running the drivers in this order tends to compress the field as we're seeing today in Italy and maintain the excitement in the event as opposed to the drivers crusing.

Seriously. If you friends can't understand that the first 8 cars are reversed then well....... I really don't know what to say.

These moronic sporting regs artificially compress the field. Latvala and Mikko had issues on the first day. They should have been MILES behind. But because of the idiotic road position rules they were allowed to get back into contention for a rally win against a driver who had driven the best rally out of everyone. As soon as day 3 came along the Ford drivers had no real answer for Loeb's speed when they were driving in similar conditions. It's an artificial way to squeeze the field together and it's rubbish. Why not give a 55 second penalty for every minute they are ahead of the driver behind or something. Same result in the end.......


Why? Mikko just made up what he lost by sweeping the road on Friday. And I think it's fair. Because otherwise it would have been everything in favour of Loeb. On friday he builds a gap thanks to his road position, and the next day he is ableto even increase it because he is given even better conditions! That would have been a real bull****! And in the current situation Loeb at least experienced what put Mikko at such a disadvantage on Friday. I think it's all fair and square at least for Hirvonen this weekend.

Why penalise faster drivers? Oh wait there is NO reason to penalise faster drivers......


What a load of bull they drove awesome stages and that is why they were up with Loeb.......making my wann puke the way everything is for Loeb!!!
I'm sure if he (Loeb) starts crying about being caught the rules on road position will get changed.

Bwahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahah ahaha. I take it you're off to Edinburgh this year for the comedy festival? :rotflmao: I reckon you should do it. I think you're hilarious.

They drove so well? Why is it they were able to catch up on Saturday but not on Sunday? I don't care if it's Loeb, Rautenbach, Mikko, Petter or Galli. If a driver is driving fast he shouldn't be penalised and prevented from building up a lead. If not for the lame road position rules Loeb would have won this rally by minutes because he was fast and didn't make mistakes......

I bet if the shoe was on your other even more biased foot you'd be screaming for the rules to be changed in favour of your Cumbrian lovers.

[gloomyDAY]

What a load of bull they drove awesome stages and that is why they were up with Loeb.......making my wann puke the way everything is for Loeb!!!
I'm sure if he (Loeb) starts crying about being caught the rules on road position will get changed.Just shut up. :|

[ste898]

Seriously. If you friends can't understand that the first 8 cars are reversed then well....... I really don't know what to say.

These moronic sporting regs artificially compress the field. Latvala and Mikko had issues on the first day. They should have been MILES behind. But because of the idiotic road position rules they were allowed to get back into contention for a rally win against a driver who had driven the best rally out of everyone. As soon as day 3 came along the Ford drivers had no real answer for Loeb's speed when they were driving in similar conditions. It's an artificial way to squeeze the field together and it's rubbish. Why not give a 55 second penalty for every minute they are ahead of the driver behind or something. Same result in the end.......



Why penalise faster drivers? Oh wait there is NO reason to penalise faster drivers......



Bwahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahah ahaha. I take it you're off to Edinburgh this year for the comedy festival? :rotflmao: I reckon you should do it. I think you're hilarious.

They drove so well? Why is it they were able to catch up on Saturday but not on Sunday? I don't care if it's Loeb, Rautenbach, Mikko, Petter or Galli. If a driver is driving fast he shouldn't be penalised and prevented from building up a lead. If not for the lame road position rules Loeb would have won this rally by minutes because he was fast and didn't make mistakes......

I bet if the shoe was on your other even more biased foot you'd be screaming for the rules to be changed in favour of your Cumbrian lovers.


Daniel I really am not suprised at your lastest load of CRAP!!!!!
Thats all you ever post on here....you are right and everyone else is wrong!! Well guess what not everyone is agreeing with you....
Its getting so boring now.

[xavier]

Why not make a mix of last year and this year? Running order would be
#16
#15
...
#8
then
#1
#2
...
#7

that would give about the same conditions for the leaders and prevent the driving to the splits issue.

[Zico]

Daniel I really am not suprised at your lastest load of CRAP!!!!!
Thats all you ever post on here....you are right and everyone else is wrong!! Well guess what not everyone is agreeing with you....
Its getting so boring now.

Well said Ste898.... You tell him !!!!

You get that Daniel ???.. Your wrong !!!! So there.. :p

[Daniel]

Well said Ste898.... You tell him !!!!

You get that Daniel ???.. Your wrong !!!! So there.. :p
My mum said YOU'RE wrong! So there :p

[A.F.F.]

I liked very much last year's system which was fair in my opinion. The championship leader was first on the road so at the first day, weaker competitors had their chance.

I dunno why they had to change it back this :confused:

There will be at least one close to farce with tactics this year, I'll tell you.

[witto6]

I'm a bit surprised there hasn't been a thread about this. I know it's making for closer finishes and a variety of winners but the way road position is done on gravel events is a joke. I thought back in 2001 the FIA understood this when they tested out different rules for starting position in Australia with the top 8 drivers nominating their position.

But now we have the rather stupid situation where a driver can get a puncture or have problems which drop them back and as long as their car is good enough they can climb back up to higher placings.

I wonder how long before we see the situation where drivers actually stop on stage like drivers used to do.....

There is no way that JML and Mikko deserve to be breathing up Seb's neck on day three when they made mistakes/had problems on earlier days.....


Yawn!!!

[White Sauron]

Why penalise faster drivers? Oh wait there is NO reason to penalise faster drivers......



.

Maybe because he was faster thanks ti HIS better road position on Friday? ;)

[Daniel]

Yawn!!!

Buuuuuuuuuuuuurp!!!!

[Daniel]

Maybe because he was faster thanks ti HIS better road position on Friday? ;)

2nd on the road isn't a huge advantage over the guy in 1st position.

[AndyRAC]

Personally speaking it's like Handicapping in Horseracing. But, in my view, there is no place for this type of thing in a World Championship sport - maybe in a National series, but not a WC. It creates artificially close competition - for example it would be like Ferrari running a 2Litre engine or starting from the back of the grid, or Italy playing with 5 children to give the opposition a chance.
Even last years system wasn't perfect - why should the Championship leader run first on the road? Why not let him pick his position? Yes, we want an exciting sport, but not artificially created.

[gloomyDAY]

There will be at least one close to farce with tactics this year, I'll tell you.Rally Jordan?

I rolled my eyes when the Ford's slowed down.
What a big load of ....

[BDunnell]

I don't care if it's Loeb, Rautenbach, Mikko, Petter or Galli. If a driver is driving fast he shouldn't be penalised and prevented from building up a lead. If not for the lame road position rules Loeb would have won this rally by minutes because he was fast and didn't make mistakes......

I can't add much to that, except to say that road position has always brought about a certain amount of tactical driving on competitive special stage events, and it's not always fair.

[A.F.F.]

Rally Jordan?

I rolled my eyes when the Ford's slowed down.
What a big load of ....

Yep, but I mean even bigger farce.

[jens]

WRC's condition has sunk so low that now even artificial methods are used to create at least some excitement. But even that doesn't stop Seb! :p :

[bluuford]

I think that the new road position rule is the greatest and best rule that FIA has reintroduced. I have followed rallying for couple of decades by now and I think that we have had very nice championship so far. It is really great feeling when you have been two days first on the road and you still win.. and it is really exiting to watch a rally when top three is in 15 s after 350 km of SS.

The rules are the same for everyone, if you don't like them, don't play the game .-)

[gloomyDAY]

The rules are the same for everyone, if you don't like them, don't play the game .-)Citroen has had enough of this game.
Who else do you want to see bail?

I don't think it matters how long you've been following the sport. This is a matter of common sense. Punishing a driver for being better than his rivals is asenine.

[cosmicpanda]

Seriously. If you friends can't understand that the first 8 cars are reversed then well....... I really don't know what to say.

These moronic sporting regs artificially compress the field. Latvala and Mikko had issues on the first day. They should have been MILES behind. But because of the idiotic road position rules they were allowed to get back into contention for a rally win against a driver who had driven the best rally out of everyone. As soon as day 3 came along the Ford drivers had no real answer for Loeb's speed when they were driving in similar conditions. It's an artificial way to squeeze the field together and it's rubbish. Why not give a 55 second penalty for every minute they are ahead of the driver behind or something. Same result in the end.......


My friends didn't know that the first 8 cars were reversed, Daniel, because they weren't fanatical supporters of the sport but rather people that turned up to the local round of the WRC each year just to see the cars go past. Casual spectators, in fact, something that the WRC needs more of, as the fanatic fanbase is probably not large enough to support a large sport.

How were the road positions determined in the 1980s and early 1990s?

I think one way to make this system fair would be to include an equal amount of tarmac and gravel on the calendar. Then, half of the rallies have the leader penalised for being first on the road, and half don't, and you always have the weather to keep things exciting. Just a thought.

[ConfusedOne]

The problem is that the surface of a gravel rally varies, both due to weather and the number of cars that pass over it. It is such a trial really that the driver currently number one in the world has to stoop so low as to have to use his skills to drive on an unswept road!! Shame on the system. I propose that the FIA bring in the following for gravel surface rallies.
1. The moisture content of the road must be conrolled, and if necessary the road must be covered in case of rain.
2. The road must be swept before the first car in order to avoid any car being disadvantaged due to loose gravel. This will require that the road to be graded and rolled to a standard hardness rating.
3. To avoid the horrible situation of the following cars having to drive over a rut or loose boulder, the road must be returned to it's original condition after each car. This will neccessarily result in a large inter-car gap, but at least they won't have to worry about dust either.

Get real.

[gloomyDAY]

The problem is that the surface of a gravel rally varies, both due to weather and the number of cars that pass over it. It is such a trial really that the driver currently number one in the world has to stoop so low as to have to use his skills to drive on an unswept road!! Shame on the system. I propose that the FIA bring in the following for gravel surface rallies.
1. The moisture content of the road must be conrolled, and if necessary the road must be covered in case of rain.
2. The road must be swept before the first car in order to avoid any car being disadvantaged due to loose gravel. This will require that the road to be graded and rolled to a standard hardness rating.
3. To avoid the horrible situation of the following cars having to drive over a rut or loose boulder, the road must be returned to it's original condition after each car. This will neccessarily result in a large inter-car gap, but at least they won't have to worry about dust either.

Get real. :rotflmao:

This is the best 1st post I have ever read!

[jonkka]

How were the road positions determined in the 1980s and early 1990s?

Just like it currently is. The reversed top-15 used between 2002 and 2007 is unique rule, only some super specials stages have deviated from running order based on rally classification.

The major exception is that in the past, the running order of the first day was not based on championship standings but performance in that event a year before. This changed in 1994, I think.

[L5->R5/CR]

I like the road position system.

I don't care if it is a measure meant to impact the competition.

There is nothing stopping Seb from being second on the road on day three by a couple of seconds.

It is strategy, it adds a tactical element to the rallies, and I for one enjoy that.

[cosmicpanda]

Well, given that most people appear to want a return to rallying as it was back then, I don't see why this rule should really be a problem.

[Daniel]

Well, given that most people appear to want a return to rallying as it was back then, I don't see why this rule should really be a problem.
Just remember the drivers can't cut their tyres. If the leader could put cuts in their tyre this would lessen the problems. But as it stands being the leader on day 3 is not a good thing.

[Daniel]

I like the road position system.

I don't care if it is a measure meant to impact the competition.

There is nothing stopping Seb from being second on the road on day three by a couple of seconds.

It is strategy, it adds a tactical element to the rallies, and I for one enjoy that.

Nothing like Ford telling their driver to slow down perhaps? When you're first on the road everyone behind knows what you're doing.

[cosmicpanda]

Just remember the drivers can't cut their tyres. If the leader could put cuts in their tyre this would lessen the problems. But as it stands being the leader on day 3 is not a good thing.

I can't see how this would help, as even when they could cut their tyres drivers were complaining about being first on the road on gravel events.

And the only fair way to let the leader cut the tyres would be to let everybody cut their tyres, and then you'd be back where you started.

[AndyRAC]

Well, given that most people appear to want a return to rallying as it was back then, I don't see why this rule should really be a problem.

Rallies were more of an endurance event. Also, there were mixed surface events as well. I don't seem to remember there being too many problems then. The first time I remember road position having a big effect was Australia 1997 on the final day, which seems fairly recent.

[ConfusedOne]

While my previous post may have contained a hint of sarcasm, the content did not. It is impossible to create a start order in a (gravel) rally that doesn't disadvantage most of the drivers, and therefore the argument is futile. Rallying by nature requires a driver to overcome multiple hurdles in order to be a winner. Seb has a bit of experience now, and has a professional support crew. He is aware of the unswept road conditions from recce, and his team know how to set up his car for loose gravel. I cannot see how he would continue to be a champion if he was 'disadvantaged' by being first on the road. While he may have mentioned it for the cameras, I would like to bet that he didn't say 'you only caught up to me because I swept the road for you' to Mikko. Over the course of a rally 99.99% of the competitors would be disadvantaged because of something at some stage. Next we will be saying that Petter is unfairly disadvantaged by having to drive a Subaru, and therefore everyone should drive a focus to make it fairer.

[Daniel]

I can't see how this would help, as even when they could cut their tyres drivers were complaining about being first on the road on gravel events.

And the only fair way to let the leader cut the tyres would be to let everybody cut their tyres, and then you'd be back where you started.

Erm. The thing is if you're later on the road you don't need to cut your tyres. If you cut your tyres and drive on clean roads the tread blocks will start to flex, heat up and then the tyre will fall apart.

[bowler]

way back when rallying was as good as our present memories want it to be, and when everything was great........the champion was seeded first, and always was the first on the road. There were not any multiple passes of stages, and a true champion got on with being first on the road, and still won the rally.

With a multiple pass rally the first car is disadvantaged once only.

[Daniel]

way back when rallying was as good as our present memories want it to be, and when everything was great........the champion was seeded first, and always was the first on the road. There were not any multiple passes of stages, and a true champion got on with being first on the road, and still won the rally.

With a multiple pass rally the first car is disadvantaged once only.
True. But like I said Mr Champion could cut his tyres appropriately. I think back then it didn't matter quite as much. But todays sporting regulations and short rally routes simply don't (in my opinion) work together.

People seem to think that because a rule is the same for everyone that it's fair. Simply not the case.

My only hope is that if the FIA goes for longer rallies with less repeated stages (not likely I know) that they ditch either the rule which doesn't allow cutting of tyres or they reverse the starting order of a few of the cars.

[TMorel]

I like the idea of cars competing under super rally rules go first.
They shouldn't be there, but if they're going to be let back in, then let them work for the privilage.

[L5->R5/CR]

Nothing like Ford telling their driver to slow down perhaps? When you're first on the road everyone behind knows what you're doing.



Daniel,

You sure to like to whine a lot. Maybe the drivers should learn to cope and overcome instead of having everything be perfect and controlled. Maybe you should get into rallycross where the conditions are completely and perfectly known.

And about Ford and their drivers. Let us look at how well that started to work out for them in Jordan. They both wanted to slip back for the first running of the Jordan river stage. Considering the length of the stage they barely made up any time. It isn't like starting second or third will guarantee such a better road. You don't know what you are going to get, you just have to think that it will be better. Wasn't it even the revered and infallable Loeb that said tactics wouldn't really matter since there usually wasn't 5 or 6 cars battling for the lead; that the difference between, first, second, and third wouldn't really be worth the time lost?

What about going out and attacking hard. If you know your rivals are probably going to back off to get a "better" road position that opens the door for you to attack and build more of a lead.

Of course you probably love that the drivers have their incar splits all rally telling them exactly how hard or not hard they need to push....

[Daniel]

Daniel,

You sure to like to whine a lot. Maybe the drivers should learn to cope and overcome instead of having everything be perfect and controlled. Maybe you should get into rallycross where the conditions are completely and perfectly known.

And about Ford and their drivers. Let us look at how well that started to work out for them in Jordan. They both wanted to slip back for the first running of the Jordan river stage. Considering the length of the stage they barely made up any time. It isn't like starting second or third will guarantee such a better road. You don't know what you are going to get, you just have to think that it will be better. Wasn't it even the revered and infallable Loeb that said tactics wouldn't really matter since there usually wasn't 5 or 6 cars battling for the lead; that the difference between, first, second, and third wouldn't really be worth the time lost?

What about going out and attacking hard. If you know your rivals are probably going to back off to get a "better" road position that opens the door for you to attack and build more of a lead.

But as I pointed out if your rivals are behind you then they will know if you're going for broke or slowing down. Why do people ignore this fact?

I never said starting from 2nd or 3rd will mean that you've got much better road conditions. But look at how much time Latvala gained on Loeb on day 2 and how much he didn't gain on day 3 and you get the idea of how much of a difference road position makes.



Of course you probably love that the drivers have their incar splits all rally telling them exactly how hard or not hard they need to push....

I bet you love the fact that drivers are free to eat potatoes whenever they like.

About as silly a comment as yours :dozey:

[BDunnell]

True. But like I said Mr Champion could cut his tyres appropriately. I think back then it didn't matter quite as much. But todays sporting regulations and short rally routes simply don't (in my opinion) work together.

I think that's the key point, and one it's perfectly legitimate to 'whine' about.

[Daniel]

I think that's the key point, and one it's perfectly legitimate to 'whine' about.
Apparently not. Apparently as long as it's the same for everyone that must mean it's fair and sporting :rolleyes:

[jonkka]

way back when rallying was as good as our present memories want it to be, and when everything was great........the champion was seeded first, and always was the first on the road. There were not any multiple passes of stages, and a true champion got on with being first on the road, and still won the rally.

Huh? World Champion has been seeded first only in season opener (ie. Monte Carlo) between 1994 and 2001 and again this year. In all other cases the first seeded driver has been either previous year's winner, championship leader or someone in reversed running order.

[Brother John]

The solution is very simple! :s mokin:
After the finish of each rally all the drivers which have points in the WRC would be in a lottery for their position in next rally.
Or simply take all WRC drivers.
Nobody must complain here then on the forum and the drivers has to start in that position on day one.
Day two and three let them start as their current position in the rally. ;)

[sollitt]

Some of us, Jonkka, can remember back a lot further than 1994 to a time when it was just as bowler suggests.

Although I will concede that bleating about start orders only began in the mid 90's. Before then most drivers seemed to be able to lead, and to win, from the front. Surprise, surprise, it even happens ocassionally now.

I do though agree with one aspect of Daniel's argument. I've never been a fan of control tyres and do believe that teams ought be free to cut them as they wish.

[Daniel]

I do though agree with one aspect of Daniel's argument. I've never been a fan of control tyres and do believe that teams ought be free to cut them as they wish.

IMHO this is one of the skills which makes for a good driver. Loeb lost his title in 2003 for this very reason.

[bowler]

IMHO this is one of the skills which makes for a good driver. Loeb lost his title in 2003 for this very reason.

The cutting of tyres is not the skill of the driver, it is the skill of the tyre engineer who designs the cut, and the skill of the technician who cuts the tyre.

The advantage of the skills of the tyre men then accrue to the driver

[Daniel]

So drivers don't choose cuts then? They do.........

[bluuford]

Well, Like I said. I am fan of the current road position rule, but I am always opened to new (often stupid) ideas :-) So, day before the rally we have shakedown. Why not make it bit more competitive? Starting order reverse to shakedown results? There will be lot of fun when before the asphalt rally everybody are sleeping on the test and before the gravel rally everybody are driving their wheels off :-)

[bowler]

So drivers don't choose cuts then? They do.........

I bow to your greater knowledge daniel

[ConfusedOne]

But as I pointed out if your rivals are behind you then they will know if you're going for broke or slowing down. Why do people ignore this fact?


I now know why I picked this name. Daniel, your argument is that the best driver in the WRC is disadvantaged by being first on the road, then you come out with the above. Why on earth should the best driver, who the majority of people say is consistently faster than the others, also be given such a huge extra advantage by being able to start further back in the field. Surely the only way to make the current champion try his hardest in a rally, especially with split tmes being relayed to everyone, is to make sure he is first on the road. If he has a speed advantage and is following and driving to the splits he most of all can cruise to the finish every time. :confused:

[Sulland]

I like the idea of cars competing under super rally rules go first.
They shouldn't be there, but if they're going to be let back in, then let them work for the privilage.

Makes sense really !

If not, why not just go back to reversing the top 15 - what was the problem with that system ?

It worked much better than todays tactics, thats a sharade !

[DonJippo]

Why on earth should the best driver, who the majority of people say is consistently faster than the others, also be given such a huge extra advantage by being able to start further back in the field.

:up: this to my knowledge was also the main reason why this rule was changed for this year.

[cut the b.s.]

I now know why I picked this name. Daniel, your argument is that the best driver in the WRC is disadvantaged by being first on the road, then you come out with the above. Why on earth should the best driver, who the majority of people say is consistently faster than the others, also be given such a huge extra advantage by being able to start further back in the field. Surely the only way to make the current champion try his hardest in a rally, especially with split tmes being relayed to everyone, is to make sure he is first on the road. If he has a speed advantage and is following and driving to the splits he most of all can cruise to the finish every time. :confused:

Its not about giving the leader an advantage, its about not giving him a disadvantage, its really not that confusing if you think about it, maybe you would like the leader further penalised with success/talent based weight penalties? Heck if we really set about this right Conrad and wee Matty will be battling at the top!!

[cut the b.s.]

:up: this to my knowledge was also the main reason why this rule was changed for this year.


correct, it and the 10,8,6... point system are there to help creat an illusion of competition

[Karukera]

So people think this new rule was intentionally made against Loeb ? That would be stupid from the FIA... although it can't be ruled out.

And what a huuuuge compliment to Seb ...

So that would be the actual reason of this new rule which introduces a cloud of artificial thrill and biases my stages winners statistics :p

What did they FIA think, that Latvala and Hirvonen would be Chupa Chups for Loeb ?
We may tell them that both Finns are tough bones in case they'd be so ignorant.

Let's say that Hirvonen is leading the Championship and sweeps the road on a loose & heavily gravelled surface like Greece, he may certainly lose some amount of time.

If still he happens to recover the time lost by his skills and be leading on day 2, then he should be encouraged for his skills by either slow down and wait under a tree or being disadvantaged again by sweeping because the rule was made to prevent a certain driver who has enough of 4 titles to win again ?

The result of it now is that it makes Loeb's win in Sardinia a greater acheivement.

Not sure it's what they were looking for :s tare:

What if my Greek tragedy clearly costs a win to either Loeb, Latvala or Hirvonen later in the season ?

[Daniel]

I bow to your greater knowledge daniel

Well they do! Just like the drivers choose whether to go for slicks or studded tyres on the Monte.

[DonJippo]

Well they do! Just like the drivers choose whether to go for slicks or studded tyres on the Monte.

Drivers are involved in decision making but don't necessarily always have the final word.

[ConfusedOne]

The best rules are the simplest..
The winner of a race is the fastest. Those behind are trying to catch up, he is trying to stay ahead

First day, seeded on results of previous rally (or last years champoinship standings for the first rally of the year)
Following days seeded fastest to slowest.
No splits
Allow tyre cutting, as it is a skill.

The nature of the road surface is all that is needed to 'naturally' compress the field, if that is what you want. It may also work the other way on a wet suface, who cares?

The main thing is that this is rallying on gravel. If all this is is fiddling with the rules to take the effect of the road surface out of the equation then it really isn't gravel rallying anymore is it?

[bowler]

Well they do! Just like the drivers choose whether to go for slicks or studded tyres on the Monte.

obviously we did not work in the same teams, but you are welcome to your opinion

[bowler]

splits have been done for years. Furtive plain clothed gentlemen wearing radios in their ears and carrying large clip boards used to jump out from behind trees with secret codes which they displayed to their driver. This was for cars in from and cars behind of their target car.

The only difference today is that they are electronic and easier.

[bowler]

So people think this new rule was intentionally made against Loeb ? T

It is just a return to proper rally rules

[bowler]

Drivers are involved in decision making but don't necessarily always have the final word.

agree

[Daniel]

Perhaps the wording of my post wasn't the best. I meant the drivers have an input into tyres and cuts.

[jonkka]

Some of us, Jonkka, can remember back a lot further than 1994 to a time when it was just as bowler suggests.

For example on 1980 RAC Rally the entry list was:

1 Mikkola, Hannu
2 Rohrl, Walter
3 Waldegard, Bjorn

Since Waldegard was reigning champion, why wasn't he seeded number 1? Instead, winner of 1979 RAC Mikkola was. Or do you insist that they did not run in seeded order?

[Karukera]

It is just a return to proper rally rules

The "proper rules" you are talking about were used at a time when rallies had a min average of 500kms + of competitive stages and when a driver could recover a load of lost minutes which is no longer possible now with the 350kms rally-sprints, except with the use of the superrally rule.

[AndyRAC]

The "proper rules" you are talking about were used at a time when rallies had a min average of 500kms + of competitive stages and when a driver could recover a load of lost minutes which is no longer possible now with the 350kms rally-sprints, except with the use of the superrally rule.

This is the most important point. Road order wasn't an issue if I rememeber correctly. Only since the shortening of Rally distances has it become an issue. You can either lengthen the Rally distance or don't make the Championship/Rally leader run first on the road with the current 'sprint' Rallies.

[DonJippo]

don't make the Championship/Rally leader run first on the road with the current 'sprint' Rallies.

Why? I know current rule creates artificial competition but personally I like it when we get fight for a win on last day instead of seeing cars just cruising on Sunday stages.

[Roy]

Why? I know current rule creates artificial competition but personally I like it when we get fight for a win on last day instead of seeing cars just cruising on Sunday stages.

Amen :up:

[cosmicpanda]

This is the most important point. Road order wasn't an issue if I rememeber correctly. Only since the shortening of Rally distances has it become an issue. You can either lengthen the Rally distance or don't make the Championship/Rally leader run first on the road with the current 'sprint' Rallies.

Why would lengethening the rallies help? It'd just mean more kilometers for whoever's driving first to lose time sweeping gravel.

Not that I don't want to have longer rallies. It's good that next year they will be longer.

[AndyRAC]

Why? I know current rule creates artificial competition but personally I like it when we get fight for a win on last day instead of seeing cars just cruising on Sunday stages.

We all want a close fight going to the final day. But, at the moment it feels as though everything is 'gerry mandered' or 'doctored' so we get a close fight. This is no different to success ballast. Personally, this has no place in a serious World Championship.

[cosmicpanda]

We all want a close fight going to the final day. But, at the moment it feels as though everything is 'gerry mandered' or 'doctored' so we get a close fight. This is no different to success ballast. Personally, this has no place in a serious World Championship.

How is it more artificial than reversing the order of just a few cars to give some more optimum road conditions? That's a form of altering the results in its own right.

[Karukera]

Sounds like i have more faith in Hirvonen's and Latvala's pace than most people of this board including some Finns.

Go figure... :s tare:




Rossiya, 2008 Champion of the World ! :hot:

Suomi 3rd :up:

Sverige 4th :up:

[Daniel]

I take it all back. If these rules give us close rallying like we have at the end of day 1 today then all hail the stupid rules. :dozey: I bet tonight on the coverage that idiot Paul King will go on about how close the cars are or something when all that's to blame is tactics and nothing else. What a load of horse poo.

[ste898]

This is brilliant........come on the Fords!!!!

[cut the b.s.]

This is brilliant........come on the Fords!!!!

If this is the only way they can 'compete' with Loeb its a sad day for the sport. Before this season started I had a bet on for Ford to win the drivers title, I like Loeb but felt it was time for a change but it honestly is a bet I hope I loose, they are f u c k ing up the sport in a big way, even if it works its no way to win. It is turning rallying into a dusty farce of a chess match and how this can excite anyone regardless of their allegiances is way beyond my comprehension

[Daniel]

This is brilliant........come on the Fords!!!!
My oh my you're a sad one.

[kleisj]

Well as another guy said on the first page of this thread is not fair either for someone to loose time on the first day and on the second day again to have a worse road position from the ones that they were beating him all day long due to road position.
At least in this way is fair and square , since Loeb or whoever else can play the same chess tactics game. No driver this way is obliged by the rules to loose the first day and then on the 2nd day take again worse road position loosing more time as well.
Also consider that on the tarmac rallies the first on the road has the advantage due to gravel getting on to the racing line because of corner cutting.

In general is better to have a tactic game by a team mixing the grid up a bit instead of having a winner from day 1.

[iJones]

I want Fords (especially Latvala) to win, but not like this. :down:

[ste898]

My oh my you're a sad one.

How do you work that one out..........

What makes me laugh is if it was saint Loeb that was doing the road positioning then there would'nt be a word said against it.......

[GruppoB]

Am I in the same forum??? for the past three years Ive heard moaning and moaning and moaning about Loeb.

Now that Ford is being a little clever with the rules you cry about the purity of the sport. You all have to be the most fickle people ever!

NO ITS NOT HONORABLE. But Ford is working within what is a farce of what we call rallying compared to twenty years ago. So I dont blame them.

[Daniel]

How do you work that one out..........

What makes me laugh is if it was saint Loeb that was doing the road positioning then there would'nt be a word said against it.......
Absolutely not. Loeb doesn't need this sort of help to win. Show me one time where Loeb has played this game this season.....

[Daniel]

Am I in the same forum??? for the past three years Ive heard moaning and moaning and moaning about Loeb.

Now that Ford is being a little clever with the rules you cry about the purity of the sport. You all have to be the most fickle people ever!

NO ITS NOT HONORABLE. But Ford is working within what is a farce of what we call rallying compared to twenty years ago. So I dont blame them.

Not really. Ste was the only person moaning about Loeb and now he's loving these lame road position battles.

[Sulland]

Anyone that remember the logic used by FIA when they changed the system from swapping the 15 top teams ?

I dont remember, thats why the Q comes ?

[paddocknews]

Citroen threaten to quit over tactics
http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/68283

[Daniel]

Anyone that remember the logic used by FIA when they changed the system from swapping the 15 top teams ?

I dont remember, thats why the Q comes ?

FIAlogic.

[kleisj]

Citroen threaten to quit over tactics
http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/68283

Yeap this is the nagging tactic. Is not the reason to pull out though!
Probably are looking for other challenge ?

[DonJippo]

Yeap this is the nagging tactic. Is not the reason to pull out though! Probably are looking for other challenge ?

My toughts as well...

[wwbroe]

As the Ford drivers are not capable of winning any rally's in normal conditions, they are playing it now with the tactics. I don't think they are doing any favour to themselves, but that is just my personal opinion.
If Citroen will retire from rallying than they will have just a Ford cup, that is maybe what they want, then they can win all the rally's as Subaru is not a real contender, and i am sure they will redrawn if this continu's like this.
That is the way Ford want it, but it doesn't mean anything if you get victory's without any competition. After all it is not Loeb's fault that he is that good, it is up to the Ford boys to try and beat him in a regular way and not by playing any tactics and by doing so fooling all the spectators and evrybody who is interested in rallying.

[A.F.F.]

Yeap this is the nagging tactic. Is not the reason to pull out though!
Probably are looking for other challenge ?

I third that thought. Sounds like an excuse.

[jonkka]

Anyone that remember the logic used by FIA when they changed the system from swapping the 15 top teams ?

I dont remember, thats why the Q comes ?

Surprisingly short memory?

Driving to the splits. In 2007, the rally leader did not change after Day 1 excepting the New Zealand thriller and Loeb's off in Sardinia. This led to rather boring processional rallies but I do not think that the current tactical games are any better with so shallow entry lists.

[ste898]

As the Ford drivers are not capable of winning any rally's in normal conditions, they are playing it now with the tactics. I don't think they are doing any favour to themselves, but that is just my personal opinion.
If Citroen will retire from rallying than they will have just a Ford cup, that is maybe what they want, then they can win all the rally's as Subaru is not a real contender, and i am sure they will redrawn if this continu's like this.
That is the way Ford want it, but it doesn't mean anything if you get victory's without any competition. After all it is not Loeb's fault that he is that good, it is up to the Ford boys to try and beat him in a regular way and not by playing any tactics and by doing so fooling all the spectators and evrybody who is interested in rallying.



I will say the same thing again, if Loeb and Cotroen were doing this it would 'no problem'
I laughed my head off when I saw that the Citroen boss was throwing his toys out of his pram and going to pull out.......how childish!!!

Can I have bucket please...as I feel sick with all this Loeb the greatest crap.....

[c4]

Quesnel takes back his comments about Citroen quitting at end of year but he is still angry.
http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/68288

[cut the b.s.]

What a load of crap!!!!!!!

I will say the same thing again, if Loeb and Cotroen were doing this it would 'no problem'
I laughed my head off when I saw that the Citroen boss was throwing his toys out of his pram and going to pull out.......how childish!!!

Can I have bucket please...as I feel sick with all this Loeb the greatest crap.....


what a w a n k e r...................

[pino]

Please let's quit the insults/personal comments and continue this nicely...thank you !

[RS]

I guess one could say Ford are working within the rules but they are actually gloating about how clever they are in their press releases.

Doesn't show much confidence in their drivers or cars that they have to win rallies in this cowardly way.

Go Loeb!

[cut the b.s.]

Please let's quit the insults/personal comments and continue this nicely...thank you !

Statistics prove that I can be 95% certain that my insight to Mr Stes personal habits are accurate, what evidence can he show to say I am wrong and that what I thought to be a factual comment was in fact an insult?

[GruppoB]

Remember the kind treatment Loeb got on Monte, going off, being towed back up and re-entering.

Cry me a river.

[cut the b.s.]

Remember the kind treatment Loeb got on Monte, going off, being towed back up and re-entering.

Cry me a river.


Relevance to topic??
For sure Loeb has a 2nd in Monte which most fans agree he should not have, superrally rules have been changed to try and prevent the same happening again, just as running order rules need changed to prevent this happening again.
In the same 06 season Gronholm gathered up points in Mexico and Australia after superrallying.

[Camelopard]

Again, not really relevant to this particular topic, but I feel that when Loeb lost 2 wheels in Greece and had bits of the car falling off along the highway as he drove to service was not in the best interests of the sport.

However it seems that it was within the rules and therefore was OK. Now changed of course.

[tmx]

I will from today boycott all threads started by Daniel. (this is not direct at him, but the other people and commotions who are attracted to the topics)

[Daniel]

Again, not really relevant to this particular topic, but I feel that when Loeb lost 2 wheels in Greece and had bits of the car falling off along the highway as he drove to service was not in the best interests of the sport.

However it seems that it was within the rules and therefore was OK. Now changed of course.

Of course and I doubt there are any people who disagree with you. Seb shouldn't have been driving that car then....


I will from today, boycott all threads started by Daniel. (this is not direct at him, but the other people who are attracted to the topics)

Fair enough :)

[jens]

I feel sorry to Loeb - it's really difficult to fight against such army of Fords. :mark:

[gloomyDAY]

These road position shenanigans are awful.
Loeb, the man who could have finished first, got a third place podium.

Thanks for ruining the WRC you FIA wombles!

[ste898]

Brilliant result for Ford....WON FAIR AND SQUARE

Loeb finished exactly where he should have in the event 3RD PLACE

Citroen could have done exactly the same and not a word of complaint would have been on this forum.......

[L5->R5/CR]

Again, not really relevant to this particular topic, but I feel that when Loeb lost 2 wheels in Greece and had bits of the car falling off along the highway as he drove to service was not in the best interests of the sport.

However it seems that it was within the rules and therefore was OK. Now changed of course.

I enjoy seeing things like that (not the danger to the general public but the get the car to service at all costs attitude)....

[tmx]

Okay sorry for posting again here, but this is a bit off topic.

Citroen threaten to quit over tactics
http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/68283
I notice lately for no reason some of these rally newspaper headlines wants to draw attention to itself and like to overexaggerated things. The other time was at crash.net when they quoted Hirvonen saying he "wants Loeb to suffer". They seem to have no problems falsely quoting people.

[savvas]

may sound stupid but why not hire recent wrc champions or other well-known wrc drivers (if they are on form) to open up such stages with their championship winning cars or other cars (Gronholm, Sainz, Makinen, others). may be good publicity for the sport

[cut the b.s.]

may sound stupid but why not hire recent wrc champions or other well-known wrc drivers (if they are on form) to open up such stages with their championship winning cars or other cars (Gronholm, Sainz, Makinen, others). may be good publicity for the sport


Would be great for spectators, would love to see this done.

What are the regulations regarding 00 cars on WRC events? What is to stop any of the teams hiring some of the drivers who are without drives to do course car for them? Citroen for example this weekend could have used the likes of Kris Meeke to sweep for them? Would be good mileage for drivers like him and also help to balance the whole thing out a little

[DonJippo]

These road position shenanigans are awful.
Loeb, the man who could have finished first, got a third place podium.

Thanks for ruining the WRC you FIA wombles!

So are you against the rule or that Loeb was victim of Ford tactics?

[gloomyDAY]

So are you against the rule or that Loeb was victim of Ford tactics?Against the rule.

I remember reading the press realease and saying, 'Unreal.'

[jens]

Yeah, it's quite hard to be directly against team tactics and blame them, because formally they are doing nothing wrong. Generally I think this situation is another proof of WRC's poor state. It's not just about the rules preventing the leader from running away from others, but also 4 Fords vs a lonely Citroen vs nobody else... Imagine if Citroen really leaves WRC as they are rumoured to do after 2009 together with Loeb. Then WRC will have fallen to rock bottom indeed.

[BDunnell]

Yeah, it's quite hard to be directly against team tactics and blame them, because formally they are doing nothing wrong. Generally I think this situation is another proof of WRC's poor state. It's not just about the rules preventing the leader from running away from others, but also 4 Fords vs a lonely Citroen vs nobody else... Imagine if Citroen really leaves WRC as they are rumoured to do after 2009 together with Loeb. Then WRC will have fallen to rock bottom indeed.

Exactly right. :up:

It's also proof, as far as I'm concerned, that rallies need to be longer and have more varied routes, allowing more chances for other factors to intervene and give drivers the opportunity to capitalise. But we shouldn't forget that road position has always been a problem on certain events in certain conditions, and that deliberately dropping back with this in mind is absolutely nothing new. Maybe Ford has just put on the most blatant tactical demonstration of this, but we ought not to be surprised

[jso1985]

Brilliant result for Ford....WON FAIR AND SQUARE

Loeb finished exactly where he should have in the event 3RD PLACE

Citroen could have done exactly the same and not a word of complaint would have been on this forum.......

whoa, you're as stubborn and paranoid as any member of the Bolivian Towards Socialism Movement :p

honetsly, fair and square? then why they gave up their positions on day 1 and 2? if they had the best car to win fair and square they wouldn't have need to do that.

I don't blame Ford, in this case I blame the FIA, and I'd be also upset if Citroën would be doing such thing(but proof comes that Ford is the only team not taking the stupid rule on a good sporting way)

[Daniel]

whoa, you're as stubborn and paranoid as any member of the Bolivian Towards Socialism Movement :p

honetsly, fair and square? then why they gave up their positions on day 1 and 2? if they had the best car to win fair and square they wouldn't have need to do that.

I don't blame Ford, in this case I blame the FIA, and I'd be also upset if Citroën would be doing such thing(but proof comes that Ford is the only team not taking the stupid rule on a good sporting way)
You have to see it from Ste's point of view. If Ford does anything it's fine. If Citroen so much as cleans the windscreen on Loeb's car at a service they're lying cheating French scum!

[ste898]

As if I'm gonna take any notice of a plum like you Daniel

[Daniel]

As if I'm gonna take any notice of a plum like you Daniel
As if I'd take notice of a tangerine like you!

[Camelopard]

You have to see it from Ste's point of view. If Ford does anything it's fine. If Citroen so much as cleans the windscreen on Loeb's car at a service they're lying cheating French scum!

And you mean they aren't.... :p :p :p

[Daniel]

And you mean they aren't.... :p :p :p
I find it amusing that for a country that has gone to war to help protect France twice some of the people here have an unnatural dislike of the French. It's like when you were in primary school and someone was giving a girl you liked a hard time so you acted all tough and told them to leave her alone and then when she tried to be nice to you she was told to go away because she had girl cooties :mark:

Perhaps Ste needs to find an outlet for his love of France? :cheese:

[bowler]

I find it amusing that for a country that has gone to war to help protect France twice some of the people here have an unnatural dislike of the French.

It is called tactics.

And it is done to win.

It has nothing to do with liking anyone

[Camelopard]

I find it amusing that for a country that has gone to war to help protect France twice some of the people here have an unnatural dislike of the French. It's like when you were in primary school and someone was giving a girl you liked a hard time so you acted all tough and told them to leave her alone and then when she tried to be nice to you she was told to go away because she had girl cooties :mark:

Perhaps Ste needs to find an outlet for his love of France? :cheese:

Sorry Daniel, I do actually like the French, I was being flippant hence the :p 's . I have tried to be lighthearted in this whole debate only to be called 'stupid' by our friendly or N.O.T. so friendly grecian, oh well can't please them all.
I must admit I really don't understand the venom and vitriol towards Ford by some posters, after all it is only a sport, it's not like it's life of death or anything, who said "no it's much more important than that"! some football player wasn't it?

Also if isn't as if Seb needs any help to win another title..........

If Citroen don't like what Ford are doing they need to rethink their approach, as I said in another post, it's not like they don't have the budget to do that. I mean really, allowing rautencrash to have a drive over a lot more fancied and more sucessfull drivers who could really help Loeb, give me break! (Even if it is a paid drive...)

I'll admit that I'm a Ford supporter and a card carrying member of 3 different RS Owners Clubs, but how can I not be biased towards Ford when I own 2 Escort Cosworths and a mkIII Capri? Mind you I drive a 1986 Nissan Pulsar as my daily driver, call me sad if you like, I've been called worse!

I do like stirring the pot, sometimes it's upsets people greatly, but as i said, such is life.

Paid and cashed up member of the FRM. :)

[rwssport]

Can the Citroen bosses put their hands on their hearts and honestly say that if they were in the same situation that the Fords were, they wouldn't have suggested to Seb and or Dani to drop time to gain a better road position?

[N.O.T]

Can the Citroen bosses put their hands on their hearts and honestly say that if they were in the same situation that the Fords were, they wouldn't have suggested to Seb and or Dani to drop time to gain a better road position?

they were in that position in previous rallies and they didn;t suggest anything....or they did but their drivers prefered not to follow them...

[A.F.F.]

they were in that position in previous rallies and they didn;t suggest anything....or they did but their drivers prefered not to follow them...

Buhuu....

[Daniel]

It is called tactics.

And it is done to win.

It has nothing to do with liking anyone

Why don't you read my post and reply to my post rather than replying to something you made up in your mind....

I didn't even mention the WRC ONCE in my post you frigging troll.

[Daniel]

Sorry Daniel, I do actually like the French, I was being flippant hence the :p 's . I have tried to be lighthearted in this whole debate only to be called 'stupid' by our friendly or N.O.T. so friendly grecian, oh well can't please them all.
I must admit I really don't understand the venom and vitriol towards Ford by some posters, after all it is only a sport, it's not like it's life of death or anything, who said "no it's much more important than that"! some football player wasn't it?

Also if isn't as if Seb needs any help to win another title..........

If Citroen don't like what Ford are doing they need to rethink their approach, as I said in another post, it's not like they don't have the budget to do that. I mean really, allowing rautencrash to have a drive over a lot more fancied and more sucessfull drivers who could really help Loeb, give me break! (Even if it is a paid drive...)

I'll admit that I'm a Ford supporter and a card carrying member of 3 different RS Owners Clubs, but how can I not be biased towards Ford when I own 2 Escort Cosworths and a mkIII Capri? Mind you I drive a 1986 Nissan Pulsar as my daily driver, call me sad if you like, I've been called worse!

I do like stirring the pot, sometimes it's upsets people greatly, but as i said, such is life.

Paid and cashed up member of the FRM. :)

Sorry I meant here in the UK :) I mean the dislike that a lot of people have towards the French for no particular reason at all.

Driving a Pulsar as a daily driver :p I don't think I need to batter your shattered self esteem anymore :p

[ste898]

People dont rise to the idiot(daniel) he is just a complete pain the backside and is just out to irritate us!!!
So let him talk to himself as I for one cant tbe bothered with his crap and so will just be ignoring him from now on.