Max Mosley opens a can of worms.

[Ranger]

In less than 2 weeks, Mosley will either be dumped or retained by the FIA on June 3. I thought this subject should be brought up again.

He now states, "FIA risk losing control of F1 if I am dumped". Although I have to say I expected this type of politics from him ahead of the meeting.

Here's a long but interesting read:
http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/67479


Mosley: FIA risks losing control of F1

By Jonathan Noble Friday, May 16th 2008, 20:01 GMT


Max Mosley has warned that the FIA could be drastically weakened, and even lose control of Formula One, if he is forced out of office at a General Assembly meeting on June 3.

With the FIA's member clubs due to vote next month on whether they still have confidence in him following the allegations about his private life made in the News of the World, Mosley has written to the clubs' presidents warning them of the dangers of him not staying on.

In the letter, a copy of which has been seen by autosport.com, Mosley reveals that he, on behalf of the FIA, is battling with F1 commercial rights holders Bernie Ecclestone and financial backers CVC for control of F1, and thinks it vital he sees out those discussions.

In fact, he thinks the negotiations are so important that: "it would be irresponsible, even a breach of duty, to walk away from (them)."

In the letter, Mosley reveals: "We are in the middle of a renegotiations of the 100 year commercial agreement between the FIA and the Formula One Commercial Rights Holder (CRH). In effect, this agreement governs Formula One.

"The CRH originally asked us to accept changes to the agreement in order to reduce the CRH's liability to tax. These we can probably concede. But the CRH has also now asked for control over the F1 regulations and the right to sell the business to anyone - in effect to take over F1 completely. I do not believe the FIA should agree to this.

"To do so would be to abandon core elements of the FIA's patrimony including, for example, our ability to protect the traditional grands prix. We would also be weaker financially but, even more importantly, we would put at risk the viability of the FIA as the regulatory authority of international motor sport and lose a valuable communication platform for the wider interests of the organisation."

The revelations about the discussions over a new 100-year deal throw a fresh light on Ecclestone's stance on the Mosley affair - especially following a meeting at the Spanish Grand Prix where he was involved in discussions about whether the teams should sign a letter calling for Mosley to resign. The original 100-year commercial rights deal was agreed with Ecclestone in 2000, when he was reported to have paid around $315 million (USD) for the privilege.

Mosley claims that his bid to defend the FIA's future would be weakened if he left his position - and opens up the possibility of a candidate being installed who actually supports those whom the FIA are currently arguing with.

"Anyone could stand and there would be no list to stabilise the process and ensure that each candidate had the support of a real cross-section of FIA member clubs," said Mosley about what would happen if he left office. "During the two to four month election period, the complex negotiations (with the CRH)....would necessarily slow or even cease.

"A new president would then take over with no knowledge of the background and, worse, might perhaps have been elected with the support of the very people with whom we are negotiating."

Mosley also fears that the FIA being frozen out of aspects of F1's governance would actually damage the sport ahead of what he calls a looming financial 'crisis' - which is why he is reluctant to agree to a Concorde Agreement that gives the teams veto over rule making and does not give them enough money.

"In my view, we should only sign a new Concorde Agreement if it reinforces the authority of the FIA and deals properly with the major financial crisis which appears imminent in F1.

"Costs have gone out of control, income is insufficient and major manufacturers are in difficulty with their core businesses. Only with fair and realistic financial arrangements will we avoid losing more teams."

Furthermore, Mosley revealed that he is involved in discussions for a long-term commercial agreement for the World Rally Championship, which he believes is vital for the "financial well-being of the FIA and those of its member clubs which organise international rallies."

He concludes that those within the sport who have called for his resignation may only be doing so to further their interests in locking the FIA out of F1.

"I think it is important to recognise that there has been a struggle for control of F1 that goes back to the original Concorde Agreement in 1981. More recently it involved the major car manufacturers threatening to launch a break-away series.

"During my period as FIA President the economics of F1 have changed beyond all recognition. We are now dealing with a sport involving billions of dollars and interests that would like nothing better than to remove the FIA from the championship entirely.

"I have been determined to fight for the rights and role of the FIA in F1 and it is possibly for this reason that the media have been encouraged by those who have an interest in undermining my Presidency.

"I believe, therefore, that whatever the Extraordinary General Assembly decides, it should not reward those who have deliberately set out to destabilise the FIA at such a crucial time in its history."

In a second part of the letter, Mosley also calls on the major mobility clubs to abandon plans to form a breakaway organisation and do more to ensure the success of the merger that they themselves originally supported."

Mosley concludes his letter by making it clear that he fully intends to stand down in October 2009 if he is given a vote of confidence on June 3 - and his final year in office will be spent concluding the F1 and WRC negotiations that he believes are so vital for the future of the FIA.

He claims that in that period all public representation of the FIA will be handed over to the two Deputy Presidents.

"This will give me the time I need to progress the current negotiations to the point where proposals safeguarding the fundamental interests of the FIA can be submitted to the WMSC (World Motor Sport Council) and the General Assembly," he explains.

"It will also give me time to pursue the legal proceedings I have started against those who have caused so much unnecessary trouble and embarrassment. Above all, it will allow a smooth and orderly transition to a new presidency satisfactory to the membership as a whole."

Next week in Monaco, Mosley is to make his first public appearance at a Grand Prix since the scandal about his private life broke earlier this year.

The underlined parts are probably the parts that'll scare some people into voting for his retainment.

The part in bold is interesting. Because, at times, giving someone else control over F1 regulations seems like a damn good idea at times!

[Hondo]

I don't know that the FIA can actually force him to resign or fire him.

[Hondo]

So what if F1 breaks off from the FIA? The FIA only seems to be good for over penalizing violations it hasn't proven, writing regulations it can't enforce and providing race stewards that have problems making decisions.

Manufacturers will continue to leave and re-enter what ever racing series they want as it suits their purposes so I wouldn't put much faith in the reasons they pander off to the public as to why they quit F1 or any other series.

The teams in F1 is what makes F1 so expensive. Williams, McLaren and Ferrari are some of the teams that led the league in developlng the expensive technologies used in F1, but F1 was supposed to be about technology and individual creativity, remember? They have made it what it is now and to hear them moan about the expense is laughable. If you can't afford to play, get out. If F1 finally cuts it's own throat due to costs, then so be it. Something else will rise from the ashes.

As far as Max and the grand conspiract goes, I'd be willing to bet that Max's side hobby hasn't exactly been a secret from friends that have known him for a long time and I would look to one of them for the tip off, not McLaren.

[grantb4]

"We are in the middle of a renegotiations of the 100 year commercial agreement between the FIA and the Formula One Commercial Rights Holder (CRH)."

Convenient, non? I see Max Mosley has found his very own WMD scare story. What a joke.

[Tazio]

Originally Posted by
To do so would be to abandon core elements of the FIA's patrimony including, for example, our ability to protect the traditional grands prix. We would also be weaker financially but, even more importantly, we would put at risk the viability of the FIA as the regulatory authority of international motor sport and lose a valuable communication platform for the wider interests of the organisation."



Someone set up that incursion into his private life!
My money is on Bernie!

If there is even a remote possibility that this projection could come to fruition
I hope he wins the vote of confidence. I've long suspected that Max
has been the continental counterbalance to an Anglo Autocracy in F1.
F1 needs someone who can stare Jackie, Ron, and Bernie down and say.
"That’s only in the interest of the Brits!" $100 million hand it over, and I'll be watching
your pastey @ss very closely. Not in a naughty way :p :

Max will get plenty of support from outside GB! More than enough to hold his job!

[tintop]

Yeah, he is in a real position to scare people away from firing him. What an arrogant sod. Soon to be relegated to historical junk heap like his father.

[gloomyDAY]

Yeah, he is in a real position to scare people away from firing him. What an arrogant sod. Soon to be relegated to historical junk heap like his father.Harsh....I love it! :)

[ArrowsFA1]

If the FIA risks losing control of F1 then it is a result of MM's actions. His stubborn refusal to accept the "damage" a scandal of his own making has done to the standing of the FIA, and his personal responsibility for that, is at the core of the current situation.

You only have to look at what will be happening at the Monaco GP. Max will be in Monaco, but his deputy, Marco Piccinini, will be the governing body's representative at official functions so as to avoid any possible embarrassment to the Monaco royal family.

Why will the FIA President not represent the FIA at F1's jewel in the crown event? Because he has already lost any authority & standing in F1 (and motorsport as a whole). Should the FIA delegates vote to keep him as their President then that authority & standing will not be restored.

[Tazio]

If the FIA risks losing control of F1 then it is a result of MM's actions. His stubborn refusal to accept the "damage" a scandal of his own making has done to the standing of the FIA, and his personal responsibility for that, is at the core of the current situation.

You only have to look at what will be happening at the Monaco GP. Max will be in Monaco, but his deputy, Marco Piccinini, will be the governing body's representative at official functions so as to avoid any possible embarrassment to the Monaco royal family.

Why will the FIA President not represent the FIA at F1's jewel in the crown event? Because he has already lost any authority & standing in F1 (and motorsport as a whole). Should the FIA delegates vote to keep him as their President then that authority & standing will not be restored.Why do the citizens of the Great Municipality of Monaco stand
to the attention of this, you Jingoistic, Cry baby, Puritanical, Limey???? bye ;)
http://www.geocities.com/TheTropics/8106/Anthems/france.htm

[Dave B]

You only have to look at what will be happening at the Monaco GP. Max will be in Monaco, but his deputy, Marco Piccinini, will be the governing body's representative at official functions so as to avoid any possible embarrassment to the Monaco royal family.

Why will the FIA President not represent the FIA at F1's jewel in the crown event? Because he has already lost any authority & standing in F1 (and motorsport as a whole). Should the FIA delegates vote to keep him as their President then that authority & standing will not be restored.
Spot on :up:

Max insists he's done nothing wrong but daren't show his face at offical functions for fear of embarassing royals. He's incapable of doing his job properly and should step down.

[Bagwan]

If the FIA risks losing control of F1 then it is a result of MM's actions. His stubborn refusal to accept the "damage" a scandal of his own making has done to the standing of the FIA, and his personal responsibility for that, is at the core of the current situation.

You only have to look at what will be happening at the Monaco GP. Max will be in Monaco, but his deputy, Marco Piccinini, will be the governing body's representative at official functions so as to avoid any possible embarrassment to the Monaco royal family.

Why will the FIA President not represent the FIA at F1's jewel in the crown event? Because he has already lost any authority & standing in F1 (and motorsport as a whole). Should the FIA delegates vote to keep him as their President then that authority & standing will not be restored.

Now , it's not fetched too far , to assume that this wasn't the first time Max engaged in this kind of activity .
The Monaco royal family has shaken the hand that held that whip many times in the past , with no apparent repercussions .

It could be said that the "scandal of his own making" , was no scandal until it was caught on film , and that film was commissioned by someone who had an axe to grind .

That mysterious party created the scandal , at a time the decision about customer engines looms , and closing teams are reality . Unprecedented fines for espionage , ridiculous rules , questionable stewarding , and a boat-load of money , have created a litany of possibilties as to who did actually foot the bill .

It's a big world , but these folks run around a pretty gated community , and it has to occur to one eventually , that there might be other clients of the "agency" who might be nervous here .
You'd have to imagine that the girls used in these circles would have to come with some credentials , and I don't think it's a stretch to assume that others in the FIA or the paddock might have interest in finding out who paid for the pics .
Who knows how many others in that crowd have held that same whip ? The dissatisfaction with Max , for some , may be that he was clumsy enough to be caught , exposing the ugly underbelly of the rich .


Sure , this is a scandal , but one that his nothing to do with F1 , or how Max functions in his job .
The deputy can handle it , and Max can be as good as there anyway , in the background .

Max will stay .

[yodasarmpit]

He'd make a good politician :D

[Azumanga Davo]

He'd make a good politician :D

Chief Whip was a position he was born to have. :)

[Knock-on]

Spot on :up:

Max insists he's done nothing wrong but daren't show his face at offical functions for fear of embarassing royals. He's incapable of doing his job properly and should step down.

When a resident of the country and head of the FIA cannot represent the FIA at his home GP, it's a bloody mess.

Max will probably say he wasn't planning to represent the FIA in front of the Royal family or something similar. Who'e to bet on "prior engagement" :laugh:

This man is a farce.

[markabilly]

With the price of oil going up and up, there will be some major changes, sooner or later, as to how business is done, and Max has a point on that.

As to the other, well, if bernie wanted to NOT have the FIA involved in his series, then that would happen, whenever he wanted it. But i think bernie needs the fia for various reasons of legitimatcy. OTOH, the comments show that it is all about the money, and Bernie's desire to make as much as possible, as in conflict with max's desires to have as much control as possible through the FIA....most interesting---will there be more light shed on the back door dealings of power, or is this stuff just a smokescreen:

In the letter, a copy of which has been seen by autosport.com, Mosley reveals that he, on behalf of the FIA, is battling with F1 commercial rights holders Bernie Ecclestone and financial backers CVC for control of F1, and thinks it vital he sees out those discussions.

In fact, he thinks the negotiations are so important that: "it would be irresponsible, even a breach of duty, to walk away from (them)."

In the letter, Mosley reveals: "We are in the middle of a renegotiations of the 100 year commercial agreement between the FIA and the Formula One Commercial Rights Holder (CRH). In effect, this agreement governs Formula One.

"The CRH originally asked us to accept changes to the agreement in order to reduce the CRH's liability to tax. These we can probably concede. But the CRH has also now asked for control over the F1 regulations and the right to sell the business to anyone - in effect to take over F1 completely. I do not believe the FIA should agree to this.

"To do so would be to abandon core elements of the FIA's patrimony including, for example, our ability to protect the traditional grands prix. We would also be weaker financially but, even more importantly, we would put at risk the viability of the FIA as the regulatory authority of international motor sport and lose a valuable communication platform for the wider interests of the organisation."

[Azumanga Davo]

My belief is that the FIA f***** about with the Supertruck category in the late nineties until that all but disappeared as a class. Don't let the same happen to F1.

[ArrowsFA1]

Now , it's not fetched too far , to assume that this wasn't the first time Max engaged in this kind of activity .
The Monaco royal family has shaken the hand that held that whip many times in the past , with no apparent repercussions .

It could be said that the "scandal of his own making" , was no scandal until it was caught on film , and that film was commissioned by someone who had an axe to grind.
All quite possibly true, but the can of worms is open and MM's actions are now public knowledge. Whatever the rights and wrongs of his actions, and how details of his private life were obtained, that cannot be undone.

Max should clearly be able to pursue his case against the NOTW, and anyone else he thinks responsible for his current situation, but if he does so while remaining as FIA President that office, and the FIA itself, will continue to be associated with MM's private life and further damaged as a result.

Sure , this is a scandal , but one that his nothing to do with F1 , or how Max functions in his job .
If it had nothing to do with F1, or how Max functions in his job, the FIA President would have been at the Bahrain GP, in Israel to discuss the development of motorsport there, and would not be skipping official functions in Monaco.

[Hondo]

You think Max was smart enough to have every letter just a little bit different so he could know where the leak to the media came from?

[all13d]

This clown really needs to go. Honestly, enough is enough.

[ioan]

He's not stupid at all, he's playing all his cards in the best way possible.
I, for one, hope he stays, because he is the one that did most for F1, like it or not. And because I don't care about his private life.

[grantb4]

Wasn't Max the one who handed Bernie the 100 year deal in the first place? With no competition or other bidders.

Nice that he used the FIA letterhead (and probably envelopes and stamps) to further his propaganda.

[Ranger]

Wasn't Max the one who handed Bernie the 100 year deal in the first place? With no competition or other bidders.

Yep... for just $300 million, selling the teams and the sport short in billions in the process.

[Ranger]

He's not stupid at all, he's playing all his cards in the best way possible.
Of course he is. But we'll see how it works.

I, for one, hope he stays, because he is the one that did most for F1, like it or not. And because I don't care about his private life.
"Most" and "Best" are two words that are not synonymous.

Most of Max's rulings beyond 2002 reek of stupidity, and, dare I say, not in the best interest of the sport.

[Valve Bounce]

Just draw an analogy with a giant world circus act. Bernie is the guy who organises where the circus performs, what acts will take place, and who the performers are. He is interested in maximising his profit, nothing else.

Max is the guy who makes sure the safety nets are used for the acrobats, proper safety cages for the animal acts, and so on.

Now when Max starts to interfere with which countries the circus will perform at, what animals will be performing, how the acts should be run, in a manner which would reduce Bernie's profits, then Bernie and his backers would want to run the whole show themselves.

The 6 car race at Indianapolis in 2005 is the prime example of what I am talking about. Of course there are many other restrictions like engine size, number of cylinders, two race engines, you name it........ that might cut into the spectacle of F1 as perceived by Bernie, and which he has no control over.

Now the customer car row has the potential of forcing two teams out of F1. I don't even know who has control over this matter, but it sure as hell isn't Bernie, and he cannot be at all happy with losing teams from F1.

I am sure many people knew about Max's dalliances, and some would have had a very large axe to grind. They have made sure that Max cannot function as the public face of the FIA: no welcome mats in Dubai, Monaco, and possibly all countries with large Muslim populations which hold F1 races. It does pose the question where Max will dare show his face as President of the FIA.

If he is to retire next year, then why not go on extended leave as of yesterday? His public image has so eroded his standing in F1 that there is no point in staying.

Right or wrong, the damage has been done.

[ioan]

Now the customer car row has the potential of forcing two teams out of F1. I don't even know who has control over this matter, but it sure as hell isn't Bernie, and he cannot be at all happy with losing teams from F1.


Regulations about customer cars are stipulated in the commercial agreement of F1, that is the Concorde Agreement and it is Bernie who manages it not Max.
It is Bernie's job to find a compromise to which all the teams would agree and thus make customer cars a reality again.
I believe this would have been feasible if he would have promised more money to the teams that were opposing the customer cars: Williams and Spyker (Force India).

Max was the one who wanted customer cars back in F1, however for some reason Bernie failed to meet the requirements for that one.

[ArrowsFA1]

This whole affair is getting more curious by the day :crazy:

An MI5 officer has been forced to resign after admitting that his wife was a prostitute who took part in a notorious “Nazi-style orgy” with Max Mosley, the Formula One racing chief.

In an extraordinary turn of events yesterday, MI5 was forced to deny through Whitehall channels that the orgy had been a “sting” that it had set up to discredit Mosley. “Any suggestion that the service was involved in setting up Mosley is total nonsense,” a senior Whitehall official said.
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk/article3953837.ece

[Valve Bounce]

Anyone been watching Spooks lately?

[Azumanga Davo]

Anyone been watching Spooks lately?

Is Max in it?

[Valve Bounce]

Afraid not!

[grantb4]

Is Max in it?

He's in the season ending cliff-hanger that leaves us wondering all summer...

[Hondo]

If the starting grid falls below the minimum amount of cars, who pays damages, if any, to the venue promoter? The FIA or Max?

[ioan]

If the starting grid falls below the minimum amount of cars, who pays damages, if any, to the venue promoter? The FIA or Max?

Bernie!
The FIA is not responsible for the commercial part of F1.
They only govern the sporting and technical regulations, that's why they are not the ones who decide if there are or not customer cars.

The day people will understand this, they will understand that the bad guy is Bernie and not Max, but I won't hold my breath on this ever happening.

[ioan]

This whole affair is getting more curious by the day :crazy:

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk/article3953837.ece

Good news for Max, he can claim he was set up for reasons that he doesn't know.

[seppefan]

Chief Whip was a position he was born to have. :)

Good one !!

Looks like Gordon Brown could use his skills in the UK parliament right now. Seems M15 dont agree though........

[BDunnell]

Good news for Max, he can claim he was set up for reasons that he doesn't know.

But very few people would believe him, because most will surely see this as a conspiracy theory too far, and were he to expound it he would make himself sound ridiculous.

[Hondo]

Bernie!
The FIA is not responsible for the commercial part of F1.
They only govern the sporting and technical regulations, that's why they are not the ones who decide if there are or not customer cars.

The day people will understand this, they will understand that the bad guy is Bernie and not Max, but I won't hold my breath on this ever happening.

I don't know, there are some ridiculous FIA regulations that either can't be enforced (team orders), not practical to enforce (fuel temperature), and silly things like forcing the teams to use both types of tires. Or is Bernie behind the tire thing too?

[Valve Bounce]

Bernie!
The FIA is not responsible for the commercial part of F1.
They only govern the sporting and technical regulations, that's why they are not the ones who decide if there are or not customer cars.

The day people will understand this, they will understand that the bad guy is Bernie and not Max, but I won't hold my breath on this ever happening.

I believe you!! I have always said that Bernie is bad, he is also a miserable bugger!!

[Big Ben]

what a wonderful world would it be if both MM and BE left. too good to be possible.

There is something I don't get... BE bought the commercial rights on F1 for 315 millions for 100 years? i think FA Premier League sold the same $h1t for a billion and something for 3 years...

[Hondo]

Maybe Bernie got such a great deal because he knew things about Max's spare time hobbies that Max wouldn't have liked to see in the newspapers. People say that Max's private life has no bearing on his ability to lead the FIA but I disagree. When you privately engage in questionable behaviors and hold a position of power, the question of blackmail affecting the decisions you make is always possible. None of us know if threat of exposure has been a factor in Max's past decisions.

[CNR]

i am not defending max

this sounds like entrapment
Link with Mosley sex scandal forces MI5 officer to resign (http://www.inthenews.co.uk/news/science/politics/link-with-mosley-sex-scandal-forces-mi5-officer-resign-$1223216.htm)
MI5 faces probe over agent's prostitute wife who took part in ... (http://www.thisislondon.co.uk/news/article-23485627-details/MI5+faces+probe+over+agent's+prostitute+wife+who+t ook+part+in+'Nazi-style'+orgy+with+F1+boss+Max+Mosley/article.do)
MI5 man quits over wife's Mosley link (http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/2008/may/19/defence.formulaone)


from google

[Mickey T]

So, Ioan, who was it that sold the 100 year, non-negotiable commercial rights to this evil Bernie for US$350 million, without putting it up to tender in a deal every analyst says was undervalued by billions?

that would be your innocent max, and it would have only happened two ways.

1. he was a poor negotiator, beaten up in negotiations by the evil bernie and even reaping less of a cut of F1's profits for the FIA's cash tin than the much-derided Balestre had negotiated.

2. he was in cahoots with so called evil bernie (which might explain the mysterious US$300 million payment that encouraged his residential move to monaco in the first place.

there is not another explanation for that deal and it doesn't matter which one is the real reason, because either way, he's not fit to continue in that position.

Not only that, but he is trying to renegotiate the non-negotiable (it was written into the original contract), largely to reduce evil bernie's tax liability.

poor evil bernie, who from 2010 will pay just US$3.5 million a year for global commercial rights to Formula One and who will have to pay tax as well!

how will he ever manage between chuckling to himself about the President of the FIA and his negotiating powers...

if you want to ignore the ignimony of the scandal - and plenty of people do, even though lesser scandals have brought down bigger corporate leaders - measure him on his professional record and financial record as FIA president. and you'll still arrive at the conclusion that the man is not fit for the job.

[ArrowsFA1]

Good news for Max, he can claim he was set up for reasons that he doesn't know.
Good news for Max (if this latest 'twist' is good news for anyone) is not the same as good news for the FIA and motorsport.

IIRC Max has said he will stand down at the end of his current term (October '09?), but that term, and the work he does, will be dominated by this saga.

That's why he should resign now and pursue any legal action as a private citizen.

[Valve Bounce]

i am not defending max

this sounds like entrapment
Link with Mosley sex scandal forces MI5 officer to resign (http://www.inthenews.co.uk/news/science/politics/link-with-mosley-sex-scandal-forces-mi5-officer-resign-$1223216.htm)
MI5 faces probe over agent's prostitute wife who took part in ... (http://www.thisislondon.co.uk/news/article-23485627-details/MI5+faces+probe+over+agent's+prostitute+wife+who+t ook+part+in+'Nazi-style'+orgy+with+F1+boss+Max+Mosley/article.do)
MI5 man quits over wife's Mosley link (http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/2008/may/19/defence.formulaone)

Yeah!! he got his balls trapped in a leather strap, and his bum whacked for good measure.

from google

Yeah!! he got his balls trapped in a leather strap, and his bum whacked for good measure.

[ioan]

Good news for Max (if this latest 'twist' is good news for anyone) is not the same as good news for the FIA and motorsport.

IIRC Max has said he will stand down at the end of his current term (October '09?), but that term, and the work he does, will be dominated by this saga.

That's why he should resign now and pursue any legal action as a private citizen.

Resigning would mean he surrenders to this blackmailing, and he would lose any chance of walking with his head up.

[Ranger]

Resigning would mean he surrenders to this blackmailing, and he would lose any chance of walking with his head up.

:laugh: :laugh:

Sorry ioan, he'll never 'walk with his head up' as a figure of authority again.

And also, this isn't blackmail.

[Knock-on]

Resigning would mean he surrenders to this blackmailing, and he would lose any chance of walking with his head up.

What blackmail? There is no blackmail going on that I know of. Did he have personal videos stored on Sutils Hard Drive then?

As for walking with his head up. :laugh:

The man's an embarrassment to the FIA and F1.

[ArrowsFA1]

What blackmail? There is no blackmail going on that I know of.
One suggestion is that, following Martin Brundle expressing his views on "spygate" in the Sunday Times and Max making clear his intention to sue, the Murdoch owned papers set out to "get" Max. Or, there was the suggestion, that Ron Dennis was behind all of this, but Radovan Novak has apologised for that one.

[Ranger]

One suggestion is that, following Martin Brundle expressing his views on "spygate" in the Sunday Times and Max making clear his intention to sue, the Murdoch owned papers set out to "get" Max. Or, there was the suggestion, that Ron Dennis was behind all of this, but Radovan Novak has apologised for that one.

And none of that speculation points to blackmail.

[ArrowsFA1]

And none of that speculation points to blackmail.
Indeed :)

In addition, The Times story (http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk/article3953837.ece) does say:
MI5 was forced to deny through Whitehall channels that the orgy had been a “sting” that it had set up to discredit Mosley. “Any suggestion that the service was involved in setting up Mosley is total nonsense,” a senior Whitehall official said.

[BDunnell]

One suggestion is that, following Martin Brundle expressing his views on "spygate" in the Sunday Times and Max making clear his intention to sue, the Murdoch owned papers set out to "get" Max.

Which may be true, but it isn't blackmail.

[Knock-on]

Which may be true, but it isn't blackmail.

What was our friends definition of a Lie again.

Oh, how Karma can be a cruel mistress. Just goes to show how it's silly to throw accusations around like confetti :laugh:

http://www.motorsportforums.com/forums/showpost.php?p=474852&postcount=60

[ioan]

And also, this isn't blackmail.

OK, wrong term, let's call it dirty payback! ;)

[Azumanga Davo]

Resigning would mean he surrenders to this blackmailing, and he would lose any chance of walking with his head up.

Substitute head for right arm, if we are led to believe it all. ;)

The MI5 story made big news in The West Australian, which rather surprised me, as motorsport news normally gets shuffled anonymously to the Wednesday Motoring section. :p :

Good news for Max (if this latest 'twist' is good news for anyone) is not the same as good news for the FIA and motorsport.

IIRC Max has said he will stand down at the end of his current term (October '09?), but that term, and the work he does, will be dominated by this saga.

That's why he should resign now and pursue any legal action as a private citizen.

Which I agree with totally, although I would also add that since nobody high-up at Mclaren has resigned after their scandal, why should Max?

[Bagwan]

The fact that a governmental spy organization is intimately involved in a scandal such as this should be a bigger story than Max's back room antics .
I wondered about how fast Max had news about the fact that he was being investigated . One would think MI5 would be rather tense about having to declare they had no involvement in a sting , and as a result , rather eager to find the person or people responsible for the surveillance , so they could point fingers .
Alas , no response so far , but for a scandalous quote from nobody Novak from nowhere .

In fact , the fact that an MI5 agent has a hooker for a wife should be a bigger story .

[SGWilko]

Which I agree with totally, although I would also add that since nobody high-up at Mclaren has resigned after their scandal, why should Max?

:confused:

Who at McLaren has been banging wives of MI5 employees then?

[Garry Walker]

So, any bookies taking bets on whether Max stays or not?

[Valve Bounce]

Resigning would mean he surrenders to this blackmailing, and he would lose any chance of walking with his head up.
I think he prefers to bend over for his whacks :D

[CNR]

Substitute head for right arm, if we are led to believe it all. ;)

The MI5 story made big news in The West Australian, which rather surprised me, as motorsport news normally gets shuffled anonymously to the Wednesday Motoring section. :p :
i copied this yesterday from google


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[gloomyDAY]

So, any bookies taking bets on whether Max stays or not?Call the MGM in Las Vegas. :)

[janneppi]

The fact that a governmental spy organization is intimately involved in a scandal such as this should be a bigger story than Max's back room antics .
Well, no, MI5 isn't involved in this matter at all.
And why would it? Mosley is hardly a menace to British national security and one would think they had better things to do on their free time than to go bother some old man.

It's as much involved as Hamilton was involved in the Sutil blackmail case.

[Bagwan]

Well, no, MI5 isn't involved in this matter at all.
And why would it? Mosley is hardly a menace to British national security and one would think they had better things to do on their free time than to go bother some old man.

It's as much involved as Hamilton was involved in the Sutil blackmail case.

So , you don't consider having a hooker involved in a sting , found to be the wife of an agent , being involved ?
Illegal activities being carried out by the wife of a security agent makes you feel secure , does it ?

Certainly , they have denied it , but only after this info was found out .
And , this was more than bothering some old man .

[janneppi]

So , you don't consider having a hooker involved in a sting , found to be the wife of an agent , being involved ?
No, not unless MI5 was responsible for hiring the women for this job, which i doubt very much. How do you find there to be a direct link?


Illegal activities being carried out by the wife of a security agent makes you feel secure , does it ? I goes to show poor judgement on part of the husband and people who do safety checks on MI5 staff, nothing to do with F1 or Mosley.


Certainly , they have denied it , but only after this info was found out .
And , this was more than bothering some old man .why would MI5 come out saying, oh, by the way, one of our emplyee's wife is a prostitute?
The question is why would MI5 bother Mosley?
BTW, did you know that Kevin Bacon is involved in this as well because he knows people, who know people, who know people, who know Mosley? That can't be a coincidense. :p :

[BDunnell]

So , you don't consider having a hooker involved in a sting , found to be the wife of an agent , being involved ?

I certainly don't. If it was the wife of, say, a Shell employee, would anyone even think that there was any Shell 'involvement' in the sting? Of course not, but because it was apparently the wife of an MI5 employee, the conspiracy theories start.

And another thing - it would be utterly stupid for MI5 to have any direct involvement in such a thing, because they would know that parts of the media inevitably try and find the prostitutes in question and get them to sell their stories.



Illegal activities being carried out by the wife of a security agent makes you feel secure , does it ?

It makes me feel neither more nor less secure, and to be honest I don't think it matters at all what they get up to. Even genuine breaches of security don't make me feel more or less secure, because the chances of being harmed by anything resulting from it are so minimal.

[scaliwag]

It's been unofficially reported Max feels he's been singled out for corporal punishment, and he's so angry and upset his cheeks are crimson, the backlash has left him a beaten man, why he asks is he being caned this way, at a stroke those he feels were his friends think he is so over valued they wish to flog him, what a blow, do they have no knowledge of the backlash, his future could be clobbered, he's throbbing with indignation, and feels as if he's been thwacked, and then there is his sole mate Berni, a poor man struggling to make ends meet, down to his last couple of billion he said he feels frustrated and said, I should be horsewhipped, nay-nay he's never chastised me like that before, I'm gob smacked, it feels as if I'd been birched, however I feel contrite and sorry for him, I offered to make a quick whip round for him, and he agreed, Ho Heaven we'll have such a thrashing time, all together now Flagellation, Flagellation, Flagellation, we love pain, we love pain, we love pain, we love---- we---- AHHHHHHHH.

Regards scaliwag.

[scaliwag]

It's been unofficially reported Max feels he's been singled out for corporal punishment, and he's so angry and upset his cheeks are crimson, the backlash has left him a beaten man, why he asks is he being caned this way, at a stroke those he feels were his friends think he is so over valued they wish to flog him, what a blow, do they have no knowledge of the backlash, his future could be clobbered, he's throbbing with indignation, and feels as if he's been thwacked, and then there is his sole mate Berni, a poor man struggling to make ends meet, down to his last couple of billion he said he feels frustrated and said, I should be horsewhipped, nay-nay he's never chastised me like that before, I'm gob smacked, it feels as if I'd been birched, however I feel contrite and sorry for him, I offered to make a quick whip round for him, and he agreed, Ho Heaven we'll have such a thrashing time, all together now Flagellation, Flagellation, Flagellation, we love pain, we love pain, we love pain, we love---- we---- AHHHHHHHH.

Regards scaliwag.

[Azumanga Davo]

It's been unofficially reported Max feels he's been singled out for corporal punishment, and he's so angry and upset his cheeks are crimson, the backlash has left him a beaten man, why he asks is he being caned this way, at a stroke those he feels were his friends think he is so over valued they wish to flog him, what a blow, do they have no knowledge of the backlash, his future could be clobbered, he's throbbing with indignation, and feels as if he's been thwacked, and then there is his sole mate Berni, a poor man struggling to make ends meet, down to his last couple of billion he said he feels frustrated and said, I should be horsewhipped, nay-nay he's never chastised me like that before, I'm gob smacked, it feels as if I'd been birched, however I feel contrite and sorry for him, I offered to make a quick whip round for him, and he agreed, Ho Heaven we'll have such a thrashing time, all together now Flagellation, Flagellation, Flagellation, we love pain, we love pain, we love pain, we love---- we---- AHHHHHHHH.

Regards scaliwag.

You are the prostitute and I claim my $250,000.

[Bagwan]

No, not unless MI5 was responsible for hiring the women for this job, which i doubt very much. How do you find there to be a direct link?
I goes to show poor judgement on part of the husband and people who do safety checks on MI5 staff, nothing to do with F1 or Mosley.
why would MI5 come out saying, oh, by the way, one of our emplyee's wife is a prostitute?
The question is why would MI5 bother Mosley?
BTW, did you know that Kevin Bacon is involved in this as well because he knows people, who know people, who know people, who know Mosley? That can't be a coincidense. :p :

I didn't ask the question about whether the MI5 set Mosely up . They were already being asked that question by the press , as it's a logical possibility . That's why they quickly made a statement denying involvement .

They were forced to fire the man . That's how serious it was to have him married to this woman involved in this sting .

As to why MI5 would bother Mosely , it does bring up a potential can of worms , as others might be involved .

If you are not worried that the screening process used by British secret service is either incapable of finding this info out , or that they knew but turned a blind eye to the wife of an agent being involved in illegal activities , then that's great .
Perhaps you feel that one's private life has , or should have nothing to do with whether they are capable of performing duties for which you are paying .

I find your Kevin Bacon comment a poor attempt to try to discredit my point and would suggest you leave this kind of condescending quip out of this debate , as it is inflamatory , and does not befit one in a moderator's seat .

Whilst I don't believe for one moment that MI5 were involved, it's pretty obvious that an MI5 member cannot have his wife working as a prostitute because of the risks of blackmailing the M15 member with this information.

Come to think of it, if Max is as sharp a lawyer as he reckons, he could now claim that he was doing His Majesty a great service by bravely unveiling the soft underbelly of MI5 before this information fell into the hands of the Queens enemies.

Thank Goodness for Max Mosley. Now we can all sleep safe in our beds tonight!!!!!

[janneppi]

I didn't ask the question about whether the MI5 set Mosely up . They were already being asked that question by the press , as it's a logical possibility . That's why they quickly made a statement denying involvement .

They were forced to fire the man . That's how serious it was to have him married to this woman involved in this sting .And firing the man is propably the right thing to do, but I'm still not seeing how MI5 is directly linked to this case? I think BDunnel said what I mean better in his post #63


As to why MI5 would bother Mosely , it does bring up a potential can of worms , as others might be involved . If they indeed were, which sounds ludicrous to even suggest, being targeted by the office that handles security threats inside UK, would make Max's indiscressions with prostitutes least of his problems.


If you are not worried that the screening process used by British secret service is either incapable of finding this info out , or that they knew but turned a blind eye to the wife of an agent being involved in illegal activities , then that's great .
Perhaps you feel that one's private life has , or should have nothing to do with whether they are capable of performing duties for which you are paying .
Being a Finn, I'm not paying for British agents paycheques, so no, I don't care much.


I find your Kevin Bacon comment a poor attempt to try to discredit my point and would suggest you leave this kind of condescending quip out of this debate , as it is inflamatory , and does not befit one in a moderator's seat . Am I right assuming you aware of the six degrees of Kevin Bacon game?

It was not mean as neither inflamatrory, nor condesending and I'm rather disappointed in you if you see it as such.

[JSH]

Come to think of it, if Max is as sharp a lawyer as he reckons, he could now claim that he was doing His Majesty a great service by bravely unveiling the soft underbelly of MI5 before this information fell into the hands of the Queens enemies.

Thank Goodness for Max Mosley. Now we can all sleep safe in our beds tonight!!!!!

What a cunning plan.... He was stinging their sting..

[Valve Bounce]

What a cunning plan.... He was stinging their sting..

I think it was a case of a lot of Whacks rather than a sting. :p :

The way I see it, the prostitute was already in the business when they found out that they could get a fair bit of extra cash out of a tabloid by providing "News" footage with a hidden camera. That's what Prostitutes do - make money!! And if they can give him a few whacks in the process, so much the better.

I'll say this much for Max tho' - at his age to last out 5 hours in an S&M orgy is quite remarkable. That guy must have great stamina!! He must have access to some great vitamin pills as well as Viagra.

[BDunnell]

They were forced to fire the man . That's how serious it was to have him married to this woman involved in this sting .

Yes, but the fact that Max Mosley was involved is neither here nor there.



As to why MI5 would bother Mosely , it does bring up a potential can of worms , as others might be involved .

Like who? I'd like to know your theory behind this.



If you are not worried that the screening process used by British secret service is either incapable of finding this info out , or that they knew but turned a blind eye to the wife of an agent being involved in illegal activities , then that's great .
Perhaps you feel that one's private life has , or should have nothing to do with whether they are capable of performing duties for which you are paying .

I think you might be a bit over-concerned about the competence or otherwise of MI5. I don't see people in the UK quaking in their boots about what this might mean for national security.



I find your Kevin Bacon comment a poor attempt to try to discredit my point and would suggest you leave this kind of condescending quip out of this debate , as it is inflamatory , and does not befit one in a moderator's seat .

I would much rather moderators were allowed to make points however they wish rather than having to remain bland and faceless.

[BDunnell]

If they indeed were, which sounds ludicrous to even suggest, being targeted by the office that handles security threats inside UK, would make Max's indiscressions with prostitutes least of his problems.

Very good point indeed.

[Valve Bounce]

I would much rather moderators were allowed to make points however they wish rather than having to remain bland and faceless.

I totally agree with this. I have said many times before that the mods do a great job here, and I see absolutely no reason why they cannot and/or should not enjoy this forum the same as everyone else with some light hearted quips.

Sorry Baggy!! but I stand by our mods on this one, mate!!

[PSfan]

And firing the man is propably the right thing to do, but I'm still not seeing how MI5 is directly linked to this case? I think BDunnel said what I mean better in his post #63

From what I've read, the person in question wasn't fired, but resigned.

I've also read where it is suggested that it was his wife that "organised" the pictures and videos for news of the world. So therefor its easy to assume that her husband had given her a hand with it, seeing as he was part of a servailence team. He may have been off duty at the time, but they may have been using MI5 equipment to get the video and pictures.


If they indeed were, which sounds ludicrous to even suggest, being targeted by the office that handles security threats inside UK, would make Max's indiscressions with prostitutes least of his problems.

I wouldn't decribe it as ludicrous that the MI5 could take an interest in Max's affairs. He has a very "global" career, and may unwittingly give terrorist access to the uk


Am I right assuming you aware of the six degrees of Kevin Bacon game?

It was not mean as neither inflamatrory, nor condesending and I'm rather disappointed in you if you see it as such.

Well, I doubt you have a complete understanding of the game. It is meant to connect Actors to Kevin Bacon.. not people who happen to know people.

However, it can be expanded to "Television" shows as well. in which case, Max Mosley has a Bacon score of three:

Max Mosley has a Kevin Bacon number of 3.

Max Mosley was in "ITV - Formula One" (1997) {2007 British Grand Prix} with Frankie Dettori
Frankie Dettori was in "Ant & Dec's Saturday Night Takeaway" (2002) {(#3.4)} with Sarah Michelle Gellar
Sarah Michelle Gellar was in Air I Breathe, The (2007) with Kevin Bacon

BTW: One summer we had a vacation, had we video taped it all, and turned it into a movie, I would also have a score of three :)

[janneppi]

From what I've read, the person in question wasn't fired, but resigned.

I've also read where it is suggested that it was his wife that "organised" the pictures and videos for news of the world. So therefor its easy to assume that her husband had given her a hand with it, seeing as he was part of a servailence team. He may have been off duty at the time, but they may have been using MI5 equipment to get the video and pictures.
If that's the case, the man should face some tough questions about using company tools on his free time. Which most like wouldn't be a public matter.

[ArrowsFA1]

It seems as if Max has opened a seriously big can of worms with his letter, because Bernie has responded.



Ecclestone says ready to fight Mosley
Formula One supremo Bernie Ecclestone has said he will defend his corner in the battle for the future of the sport if FIA president Max Mosley wants a fight over it.
Reacting to a letter Mosley wrote to national automobile clubs last week, ahead of the FIA Extraordinary General Assembly meeting on June 3 to decide his future, the Briton warned that the governing body risked losing control of F1 to commercial rights holders Ecclestone and CVC partners if he was forced from office.
Ecclestone has said he was taken aback by those suggestions and has revealed that CVC is to follow up Mosley's letter with their own explanation of the situation.
"I sincerely hope that it isn't a declaration of war because, if that's what the message should be, then we'll have to defend ourselves," Ecclestone told The Times.
"That is what anyone would do. I don't believe that's what Max wanted the letter to say. I don't want to have a war with Max. I hope he doesn't want one with me.
"This whole business is really about what was printed in the News of the World and whether this in any way damaged the FIA clubs or the FIA - that's all.
"It's nothing to do with anything else and I don't quite know why he's come out and said these things. I am sorry if the press have reported things which he doesn't like, but we certainly don't have any influence over the FIA."

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/67590
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/sport/formula_1/article3972611.ece

[Valve Bounce]

If that's the case, the man should face some tough questions about using company tools on his free time. Which most like wouldn't be a public matter.


I think that was pure conjecture. The video images were, at best blurry and very amateurish, and as I posted above, she probably wanted to make some good money by allerting "NEWS". Why the hell would she tell her husband that she is going to take part in an orgy, let alone photograph the guy? There is no evidence of this whatsoever.

I think it is necessary to think about this: Why would a prostitute tell her husband what the hell she is up to?

[Knock-on]

OK, lets look at facts and apply some reasoned deduction to the situation.

It may be that Max was subject to an elaborate sting from MI5, Bernie Ecclestone, Ron Dennis or the Moonies. However, it's a bit far fetched but I suppose there is a chance that the moon landings are indeed an elaborate hoax as well. I should imagine that people disposed to believe in conspiracy theories will readily believe that this is some sort of govermental stitch up because of who Max's father was :laugh:

What is more likely is that Max likes a bit of S&M and probably gets off on German role play, dictatorship sex games. Quite unpallatable but some people like that.

What is also likely is that someone saw an opportunity to make a bit of money by selling this story to the NotW. Happens every day and nothing strange there. The public love a bit of controvacy and Max is an easy target because of the past and present.

What is also logical is that the partner of a MI5 employee was either with his knowledge, or more likely, without, involved in this mess. It's something that goes on.

Lastly, it is reasonable to assume that once this was known, MI5 called the man in and asked what the hell was going on. His wife's actions have caused MI5 to be called to question and the man was probably "encouraged" to do the right thing.

This all seems quite obvious and although gossip mongers would like some sinister campaign to believe in, the most logical answer is usually the correct one.

The only thing that I find incredible is that Max didn't do the same as the MI5 officer and step aside to avoid bringing the FIA into disrepute. As it is, the damage that has been done to the organisation will have serious ramifications that will last for some time to come.

[ioan]

I didn't ask the question about whether the MI5 set Mosely up . They were already being asked that question by the press , as it's a logical possibility . That's why they quickly made a statement denying involvement .

They were forced to fire the man . That's how serious it was to have him married to this woman involved in this sting .

As to why MI5 would bother Mosely , it does bring up a potential can of worms , as others might be involved .

If you are not worried that the screening process used by British secret service is either incapable of finding this info out , or that they knew but turned a blind eye to the wife of an agent being involved in illegal activities , then that's great .
Perhaps you feel that one's private life has , or should have nothing to do with whether they are capable of performing duties for which you are paying .

I find your Kevin Bacon comment a poor attempt to try to discredit my point and would suggest you leave this kind of condescending quip out of this debate , as it is inflamatory , and does not befit one in a moderator's seat .

Fully agree.
It isn't as simple as some people are trying to make it look.

[ArrowsFA1]

As it is, the damage that has been done to the organisation will have serious ramifications that will last for some time to come.
And I think Bernie's lastest comments merely pull that into much sharper focus.

It has generally been assumed that Max 'n' Bernie have effectively run F1 since the early 1980's. Max had the legal background to help Bernie's FOCA (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Formula_One_Constructors_Association) in the "war" (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FISA-FOCA_war) with FISA. As Bernie established commercial control over the sport, Max then headed the rules side of things by becoming FISA (the sporting arm of the FIA) President in 1991. He then combined FISA with the FIA and became overall President.

For Bernie to now say of Max's letter "I sincerely hope that it isn't a declaration of war because, if that's what the message should be, then we'll have to defend ourselves" is unprecedented and has serious implications for Max and F1, let alone motorsport and the FIA.

[ioan]

It seems as if Max has opened a seriously big can of worms with his letter, because Bernie has responded.


http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/67590
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/sport/formula_1/article3972611.ece

Bernie is afraid of losing his cash cow, he got where he is because Max was open to help him up until now.

[ioan]

And I think Bernie's lastest comments merely pull that into much sharper focus.

Yeah, he tries to tun the attention away from the F1 commercial rights back to Max's private life, Bernie the little poisonous dwarf who only cares for money even though he has more than he could ever spend.

[ArrowsFA1]

It isn't as simple as some people are trying to make it look.
One of the few simple things about this situation is the obvious (except to Max) solution.

Bernie is afraid of losing his cash cow, he got where he is because Max was open to help him up until now.
Really? I'd be interested to know what you base this on.

Yeah, he tries to tun the attention away from the F1 commercial rights back to Max's private life...
Well that is where this mess began. It is Max who, with his letter, is trying to make it about something else.

[Bagwan]

Am I right assuming you aware of the six degrees of Kevin Bacon game?

It was not mean as neither inflamatrory, nor condesending and I'm rather disappointed in you if you see it as such.

You assume incorrectly .
But , you may be disappointed in me if you wish .

You dismissed a portion of my post because you are a Finn . Had this happened in Finland , what would be your reaction ?

[BDunnell]

I totally agree with this. I have said many times before that the mods do a great job here, and I see absolutely no reason why they cannot and/or should not enjoy this forum the same as everyone else with some light hearted quips.

Sorry Baggy!! but I stand by our mods on this one, mate!!

:up:

[BDunnell]

Fully agree.
It isn't as simple as some people are trying to make it look.

In what way? I reckon this part of the whole matter, i.e. the alleged involvement of the MI5 officer's wife, is perfectly simple - it really doesn't matter, and isn't important.

[BDunnell]

From what I've read, the person in question wasn't fired, but resigned.

I've also read where it is suggested that it was his wife that "organised" the pictures and videos for news of the world. So therefor its easy to assume that her husband had given her a hand with it, seeing as he was part of a servailence team. He may have been off duty at the time, but they may have been using MI5 equipment to get the video and pictures.



I wouldn't decribe it as ludicrous that the MI5 could take an interest in Max's affairs. He has a very "global" career, and may unwittingly give terrorist access to the uk

True enough, but it would be astonishingly stupid for MI5 to think that it could get away with the 'sting' without it becoming public, because, as I said, the tabloids always try to find and speak to the prostitutes involved in such cases. And I don't find it that easy to assume that the woman's husband could have 'given her a hand' with the surveillance. It is easier to assume that he knew nothing about it, but I am willing to be proved wrong.

[BDunnell]

OK, lets look at facts and apply some reasoned deduction to the situation.

It may be that Max was subject to an elaborate sting from MI5, Bernie Ecclestone, Ron Dennis or the Moonies. However, it's a bit far fetched but I suppose there is a chance that the moon landings are indeed an elaborate hoax as well. I should imagine that people disposed to believe in conspiracy theories will readily believe that this is some sort of govermental stitch up because of who Max's father was :laugh:

What is more likely is that Max likes a bit of S&M and probably gets off on German role play, dictatorship sex games. Quite unpallatable but some people like that.

What is also likely is that someone saw an opportunity to make a bit of money by selling this story to the NotW. Happens every day and nothing strange there. The public love a bit of controvacy and Max is an easy target because of the past and present.

What is also logical is that the partner of a MI5 employee was either with his knowledge, or more likely, without, involved in this mess. It's something that goes on.

Lastly, it is reasonable to assume that once this was known, MI5 called the man in and asked what the hell was going on. His wife's actions have caused MI5 to be called to question and the man was probably "encouraged" to do the right thing.

This all seems quite obvious and although gossip mongers would like some sinister campaign to believe in, the most logical answer is usually the correct one.

The only thing that I find incredible is that Max didn't do the same as the MI5 officer and step aside to avoid bringing the FIA into disrepute. As it is, the damage that has been done to the organisation will have serious ramifications that will last for some time to come.

I couldn't agree more, and find the suggestions that Bernie organised the whole thing with the help of his chums in high places in the British establishment lacking in credence.

If it was a plot against Max, it must have been a crap one, given the ease with which some people here have been able to work it out. I suspect the reality of such things is a bit more complex, and that those who think they have deduced this one wouldn't go very far in the intelligence services...

[BDunnell]

Bernie is afraid of losing his cash cow, he got where he is because Max was open to help him up until now.

I hate to defend Bernie too much, but do you not think his own business acumen might have had a little bit to do with it?

[BDunnell]

You assume incorrectly .
But , you may be disappointed in me if you wish .

You dismissed a portion of my post because you are a Finn . Had this happened in Finland , what would be your reaction ?

Hang on - you're not a Brit, yet you're commenting on something that happened in Britain! I don't see what point you are making about Finland.

[janneppi]

You dismissed a portion of my post because you are a Finn . Had this happened in Finland , what would be your reaction ?
I don't know. And quite frankly this being a F1 issue were talking about, not inept government organisations, I' not going to spend time pondering what would happen if som thing like this came to public.

I still would like to see a more detailed answer from you how you think MI5 is involved in this.

[Valve Bounce]

Yeah, he tries to tun the attention away from the F1 commercial rights back to Max's private life, Bernie the little poisonous dwarf who only cares for money even though he has more than he could ever spend.

You don't think Bernie was hiding behind the wall operating the camera, do you? Hehehe!! :p :

[grantb4]

It seems as if Max has opened a seriously big can of worms with his letter, because Bernie has responded.


This is a carefully contrived show for the benefit of the media and the FIA meeting. Max is Bernie's greatest supporter and visa versa. We are being duped on a massive scale (again).

The objective is this latest controversy/battle is an attempt to allow Max to survive his last one. "Only Max can save us now." Give me a break. He needs to go down.

[ArrowsFA1]

This is a carefully contrived show for the benefit of the media and the FIA meeting.
Interesting things about the FIA meeting as pointed out by Mark Hughes in Autosport:

Two things should be made clear about the EGM: 1) It was Max who called it, Max who decided its date - and largely Max who decided what it would entail. 2) The vote of confidence on the agenda currently has no follow-up motion. So even if the vote goes against him, there is nothing in that motion that allows for any further action to be taken. Because it was Max who outlined the motion.

A cynic might say he chose to set up the EGM for precisely the purpose of reducing the chances of a disrepute charge being made against him, using it as a decoy. Like a magician, he's extremely adroit at inducing you to watch the rabbit and not the hands.

As can be seen, the odds are stacked in Max's favour...the really interesting part will be what happens if and when Max wins the vote.

[Valve Bounce]

Interesting things about the FIA meeting as pointed out by Mark Hughes in Autosport:

Yes! a deceptive charade.

[ioan]

You don't think Bernie was hiding behind the wall operating the camera, do you? Hehehe!! :p :

No I don't, but you obviously gave it a thought already! :p :

[Bagwan]

I don't know. And quite frankly this being a F1 issue were talking about, not inept government organisations, I' not going to spend time pondering what would happen if som thing like this came to public.

I still would like to see a more detailed answer from you how you think MI5 is involved in this.

I will answer your question , even though you duck mine because you don't feel it's worth wasting your valuable time .

MI5 had an agent working surveillance , and his wife , a prostitute , took pictures of a private citizen and sold them to a rag .
This looked bad enough , that the agent's employment was terminated .

It is in no doubt that Max is not universally loved , and speculation has many on the suspect list .
That Ron Dennis was on that list is no surprise .
There is your link to F1 , if you needed more than Max himself . If it wasn't Ron , who was it ?

The fact that the security force of the nation has wives who sell photos of people in compromising positions to tabloids shows this may be a tactic used by the force .
A "sting" is entrapment . It's illegal .
Has anyone else been stung in this way ?

It remains to be seen , where the money originated , that paid for the surveillance that was said to be in place for 2 months before the pictures were released . Max said very quickly after the release , that MI5 had told him he was being watched .
That they knew , and knew so quickly , should be enough to cause wonder as to whether the service was involved . Add that a member had direct involvement through his wife , brings it to be obvious that questions would arise .

Who paid for that 2 months of watching Max ?
Why is it taking so long to find this out ?

I've asked this from the start .

It wasn't us , isn't enough . I want to know who it was .

[janneppi]

MI5 had an agent working surveillance , and his wife , a prostitute , took pictures of a private citizen and sold them to a rag .
This looked bad enough , that the agent's employment was terminated .
IMO not linking MI5 to anything yet.
Was the man fired(or moved to another job as psfan said) because
-his wife was working as prostitute and was an embaressement to MI5
-the man could be regonised as an MI5 agent and would not be able to work in that job
-he was part of a MI5 operation to get naughty pictures of Max Mosley and sell them to tabloids, but got caught.
First two sound helluva lot more plausable. ;)



It is in no doubt that Max is not universally loved , and speculation has many on the suspect list .
That Ron Dennis was on that list is no surprise .
There is your link to F1 , if you needed more than Max himself . If it wasn't Ron , who was it ?How is ron Dennis linked to MI5? If it wasn't Ron, try some tabloid owned by The same guy who owns The Sunday Times, a paper whose writer has been sued by Mosley. A bit more plausable than Ron Dennis having MI5 do a sting on Mosley,if you ask me.



The fact that the security force of the nation has wives who sell photos of people in compromising positions to tabloids shows this may be a tactic used by the force .
A "sting" is entrapment . It's illegal .
Has anyone else been stung in this way ?

It remains to be seen , where the money originated , that paid for the surveillance that was said to be in place for 2 months before the pictures were released . Max said very quickly after the release , that MI5 had told him he was being watched .
That they knew , and knew so quickly , should be enough to cause wonder as to whether the service was involved . Add that a member had direct involvement through his wife , brings it to be obvious that questions would arise . Now that's the first real indication of any involvement of MI5 to this case. Was MI5 doing the watching, or did they stuble into someone else watching Mosley. Latter would seem more plausable seeing it became a public matter. Perhaps the husband got suspicious of his wife's movement, followed her and notified his employer of what was going on.


Who paid for that 2 months of watching Max ?I'd put my money rather on Rupert Murdoch that the British goverment.


Why is it taking so long to find this out ? No one who knows the real deal isn't willing to talk.


It wasn't us , isn't enough . I want to know who it was .If MI5 wasn't the culprit and know's who it was, their first oblication isn't to tell it all to the media. :)

[ArrowsFA1]

The fact that the security force of the nation has wives who sell photos of people in compromising positions to tabloids shows this may be a tactic used by the force.
It may be a tactic they use but does it follow that MI5, via one of their agents, employed the wife of that agent to create this particular situation, film it, and sell the film to the NOTW?

A "sting" is entrapment . It's illegal .
A definition of entrapment is "the luring by a law-enforcement agent of a person into committing a crime". Was Max lured into committing a crime in this way?

Max said very quickly after the release , that MI5 had told him he was being watched
Max said (http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/66276):
"From information provided to me by an impeccable high-level source close to the UK police and security services, I understand that over the last two weeks or so, a covert investigation of my private life and background has been undertaken by a group specialising in such things."
Given that the NOTW regularly carry these kind of exposés could we assume that they are the group Max refers to?

Having said all of that the issue is not so much the NOTW story as the damage done to the office of the FIA President and the FIA itself, and the continuing impact that is having on the ability of the FIA President to do his job.

I don't believe Max can continue as FIA President while fighting the NOTW, and anyone else he holds responsible, through the courts. He may (rightly IMHO) feel that his private life should be his own affair, but thanks to the NOTW it no longer is, and he should defend his right to privacy as a private citizen.

[janneppi]

but does it follow that MI5, via one of their agents, employed the wife of that agent to create this particular situation, film it, and sell the film to the NOTW?

Might be that MI5 is bit strapped for cash. :D
Next month's scoop on The Sun: "satellite photos of Emma thompson in a beach wearing bikinis"

[BDunnell]

I will answer your question , even though you duck mine because you don't feel it's worth wasting your valuable time .

MI5 had an agent working surveillance , and his wife , a prostitute , took pictures of a private citizen and sold them to a rag .
This looked bad enough , that the agent's employment was terminated .

It is in no doubt that Max is not universally loved , and speculation has many on the suspect list .
That Ron Dennis was on that list is no surprise .
There is your link to F1 , if you needed more than Max himself . If it wasn't Ron , who was it ?

The fact that the security force of the nation has wives who sell photos of people in compromising positions to tabloids shows this may be a tactic used by the force .
A "sting" is entrapment . It's illegal .
Has anyone else been stung in this way ?

It remains to be seen , where the money originated , that paid for the surveillance that was said to be in place for 2 months before the pictures were released . Max said very quickly after the release , that MI5 had told him he was being watched .
That they knew , and knew so quickly , should be enough to cause wonder as to whether the service was involved . Add that a member had direct involvement through his wife , brings it to be obvious that questions would arise .

Who paid for that 2 months of watching Max ?
Why is it taking so long to find this out ?

I've asked this from the start .

It wasn't us , isn't enough . I want to know who it was .

Er... the newspaper, just as in the vast majority of other tabloid stings?

[BDunnell]

Given that the NOTW regularly carry these kind of exposés could we assume that they are the group Max refers to?

Exactly. The idea that he meant MI5 is fanciful, to me at least.



Having said all of that the issue is not so much the NOTW story as the damage done to the office of the FIA President and the FIA itself, and the continuing impact that is having on the ability of the FIA President to do his job.

I don't believe Max can continue as FIA President while fighting the NOTW, and anyone else he holds responsible, through the courts. He may (rightly IMHO) feel that his private life should be his own affair, but thanks to the NOTW it no longer is, and he should defend his right to privacy as a private citizen.

Again, we come back to the question of whether it is morally right for someone to be forced out of their job for having a private life that is different to that of most people, and whether it being exposed makes it any more wrong than if this behaviour continued in private. It is a very difficult moral conundrum. In this case, the truth or otherwise of the 'Nazi' aspect is key. But I agree that he should go, if only for the comments he made afterwards towards the German car manufacturers.

[Bagwan]

IMO not linking MI5 to anything yet.
Was the man fired(or moved to another job as psfan said) because
-his wife was working as prostitute and was an embaressement to MI5
-the man could be regonised as an MI5 agent and would not be able to work in that job
-he was part of a MI5 operation to get naughty pictures of Max Mosley and sell them to tabloids, but got caught.
First two sound helluva lot more plausable. ;)

How is ron Dennis linked to MI5? If it wasn't Ron, try some tabloid owned by The same guy who owns The Sunday Times, a paper whose writer has been sued by Mosley. A bit more plausable than Ron Dennis having MI5 do a sting on Mosley,if you ask me.

Now that's the first real indication of any involvement of MI5 to this case. Was MI5 doing the watching, or did they stuble into someone else watching Mosley. Latter would seem more plausable seeing it became a public matter. Perhaps the husband got suspicious of his wife's movement, followed her and notified his employer of what was going on.
I'd put my money rather on Rupert Murdoch that the British goverment.

No one who knows the real deal isn't willing to talk.

If MI5 wasn't the culprit and know's who it was, their first oblication isn't to tell it all to the media. :)

Did that MI5 agent know that his wife was involved in a plan to discredit Max ?
You think it was likely Murdoch behind it .

Do you think the MI5 agent knew his wife was a hooker ?

Was the knowledge of the fact that she was a hooker not a product of the investigation itself ?

Would the fact that she was the wife of an MI5 agent not be of concern to the "agency" for which she worked ? Was she so good at her covert operation that she was keeping this information from both her husband and the clients ?

That doesn't sound so plausable either , does it ?

Of course , though , if her husband knew , and she was actually an operative herself , then the easy way to explain it would be to say he didn't know , and shift him out .
He's a surveillance man , but he didn't see it .
She sounds like a better spy than her husband .

The implication is that someone like a Rupert Murdoch , or anyone else for that matter , could have influence enough to make this happen .

I can't imagine , pulling off a stunt like this , for a one-sum payment , that she had a career in mind in the prostitution biz . In those circles , she would have a serious pay cheque coming in . That also points to a sting , set up by someone with influence .

Since the implications are so large , we may never hear much more about this , and you may be able to say it was all bunk .

But , I hope to hear a few of these questions answered by official channels .

By the way , PSfan stated he had heard that the man resigned and wasn't fired , rather than , as you stated , moved .
Resigned often means he was given the option , and , given that firing him might inply his involvement in the issue , does it not make sense that it is the case , in this case ?

[Bagwan]

It may be a tactic they use but does it follow that MI5, via one of their agents, employed the wife of that agent to create this particular situation, film it, and sell the film to the NOTW?

A definition of entrapment is "the luring by a law-enforcement agent of a person into committing a crime". Was Max lured into committing a crime in this way?

Max said (http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/66276):
Given that the NOTW regularly carry these kind of exposés could we assume that they are the group Max refers to?

Having said all of that the issue is not so much the NOTW story as the damage done to the office of the FIA President and the FIA itself, and the continuing impact that is having on the ability of the FIA President to do his job.

I don't believe Max can continue as FIA President while fighting the NOTW, and anyone else he holds responsible, through the courts. He may (rightly IMHO) feel that his private life should be his own affair, but thanks to the NOTW it no longer is, and he should defend his right to privacy as a private citizen.

Is soliciting a prostitute a crime there ?
Perhaps not , as MI5 , in the denial , called it a sting .

You say tomato . I say tomato . Let's call the whole investigation off .

[janneppi]

By the way , PSfan stated he had heard that the man resigned and wasn't fired , rather than , as you stated , moved .
Resigned often means he was given the option , and , given that firing him might inply his involvement in the issue , does it not make sense that it is the case , in this case ?Oh, it was resigned, I had read it as re-assigned and didn't look more closely.

One could also see his resignation being a case of being humiliated in front of your peers. I might have a hard time going to work if my wife was exposed as a prostitute. Altough I wouldn't rule out him being told to resign to stop embarassing MI5 any further.

[Bagwan]

Oh, it was resigned, I had read it as re-assigned and didn't look more closely.

One could also see his resignation being a case of being humiliated in front of your peers. I might have a hard time going to work if my wife was exposed as a prostitute. Altough I wouldn't rule out him being told to resign to stop embarassing MI5 any further.

I work for myself , so nobody's going to fire me .
The man resigned , or was forced to resign . He did so as they investigated a case of invasion of privacy , in which his wife was personally involved .
They were forced to deny involvement in a "sting" .

It was characterized as such by MI5 , and information from that same organization said that the surveillance was on for 2 weeks(not months as I stated before) by a third party , a private surveillance firm .
The private firm was being watched by MI5 , and contained as employee , the wife of the agent .
We are asked to believe that the agent didn't know that his wife worked as a hooker , even though he worked in the same organization that was watching that firm .

Then , she gave up a great job , for a lump sum , selling her story and pictures to the media , thinking she'd get away without them finding out ?
If she was smart enough to fool MI5 , and the escort agency , how come she couldn't figure that one out ?

I'm not suggest that all of the MI5 is rotten . I am suggesting that men can be bought .

[ioan]

What if the guy was working together with his wife and their major income was setting up such ordered stings?!
The question is, who ordered the whole affair?

[BDunnell]

What if the guy was working together with his wife and their major income was setting up such ordered stings?!
The question is, who ordered the whole affair?

I don't think there's any question that it was the News of the World. There is no reason for any intelligence service to do anything to ridicule Mosley. The same can't be said of the Murdoch press. But let's not forget that whoever ordered it, this sting was set up because whoever was behind it knew that Mosley would be a willing participant. How they knew that, who can say...

[janneppi]

[quote=janneppi]


We are asked to believe that the agent didn't know that his wife worked as a hooker , even though he worked in the same organization that was watching that firm .
Was the firm being watched by MI5 at the time of making of the tape?

If so, it's not that hard to believe that the husband wouldn't know of his wife's involvement.
She propably wouldn't have been in much contact with anyone in that firm before their session. There's a good chance the first time she would be seen was when they set up Mosley.
Even, then, MI5 is a large organisation, and the odds of the husband being the one following Mosleys tails aren't very high.


Then , she gave up a great job , for a lump sum , selling her story and pictures to the media , thinking she'd get away without them finding out ?
If she was smart enough to fool MI5 , and the escort agency , how come she couldn't figure that one out ?How much did she get from the tape, enough to leave her profession perhaps? Selling a story or two to press. Not that bad a deal.


I'm not suggest that all of the MI5 is rotten . I am suggesting that men can be bought .[/quote:g1d8tt2x] So no MI5 involvement, but induviduals acting on their own?

[Valve Bounce]

How much did she get from the tape, enough to leave her profession perhaps? Selling a story or two to press. Not that bad a deal.


Maybe not!! In that profession, any publicity is good publicity as it ups their rates for future services. It's all about customer satisfaction. Just look at the advertising prospects: Being smacked by women who smacked the bottom of the President of Formula 1 would make the blood run fast, and being smacked by the ex wife of an MI5 agent would raise adrenalin levels considerably. Then they could play all that German orders issued by none other than the boss of Formula 1. They could even add the sounds of some F1 cars off the start line as sound effects with each whack!! :eek:

[ArrowsFA1]

What if the guy was working together with his wife and their major income was setting up such ordered stings?!
The question is, who ordered the whole affair?
Perhaps we will get answers to those questions, perhaps not, but I still think we're dealing with two separate issues here.

Firstly, there is the right to privacy and the role the NOTW played in exposing Max's private life. Max has acknowledged (http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/66276) that his activities were "highly personal and private activities, which are, to say the least, embarrassing". He has not at any point denied his involvment so that is an accepted fact. What he has attempted to do is portray himself as the victim of a conspiracy designed to discredit him. That may, or may not, be true.

Secondly, there is the impact that this story has had on his role as FIA President. Regardless of how or why the story broke it is certainly true that it has had a major impact on his ability to do his job, as well as damaging the organisation he represents.

I think the question that needs to be answered is can Max continue as FIA President while fighting for his right to privacy? As I've said before, I think the answer to that is no.

[MAX_THRUST]

He should not be at Monaco this weekend, does he really think this will be dropped now. Hom turning up will bring the story back to the press again. News of the World could be interested this weekend. If they follow form they will publish something about him, just to remind everyone what he has done.

I think the man is an idiot over all this and should resign. It will not go away until he does. He's desperately clinging on saying the FIA won't be able to clinch fital deals without him.

Guess what Max you would be replaced and would not be missed. Thats life. Deal with it. You got caught now leave with some dignity, now he has made everyone remember that incident for ever associated with him. He'll be know for 5 prostitutes, like Frank Both was know for prostitutes and Coke.

[SGWilko]

What if the guy was working together with his wife and their major income was setting up such ordered stings?!
The question is, who ordered the whole affair?

This isn't an Arni Schwarzenegger/Jamie Lee Curtis film you know.... :rolleyes:

[ioan]

This isn't an Arni Schwarzenegger/Jamie Lee Curtis film you know.... :rolleyes:

Who said it was? :rolleyes:
You watch to many average movies! :p :

[Valve Bounce]

Here is the letter: http://www.formula1.com/flash/other/F1-CRH-Letter-To-FIA-Club-Presidents.pdf

In it, Bernie sets out "that regulatory functions relating to international motor sport be separate from the associated commercial interests and that the FIA's role in Formula One should be that of the sporting regulator, uninvolved in its commercial exploitation." ......which debunks the threat that he or CRH intend to takeover F1.

However, he then sets out a thinly veiled attack on Max, and I quote : "We believe it is to the benefit of Formula One that the FIA should have a transparent and robust governance structure and that it should discharge its regulatory responsibilities in a fair, impartial and non-discriminatory manner, without external influence or interference, led by a credible and respected President (who should be chosen by the FIA's membership only)."

[Valve Bounce]

.............and Eccleston's press conference on the matter before the letter: http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/67642

of particular interest is this: "Max is at the moment is blowing a bit of a smokescreen to stop all the other nonsense," said Ecclestone. "He is going to say whatever he thinks is the right thing to say.

"The bottom line is simple: if this incident had not happened to him, which is totally private, would he have informed the clubs in the way that he has informed them?"

[Knock-on]

That letter really has pulled the rug out from underneath Max. It is almost a coup de gras.

Max is twisting and turning but it looks like he has no options as far as F1 goes.

http://www.formula1.com/flash/other/F1-CRH-Letter-To-FIA-Club-Presidents.pdf

Reading the letter, it basically says that Max is a liability and a stumbling block to continuity.

The FIA may decide that F1 isn't as fundamental to them and risk alienating the sport. It will certainly cause conflict which can easily be avoided.

The head of the FIA has experienced condemnation and had his credibility questioned or even refused from within the FIA, from F1, from heads of state, politicians, the Teams and the public. In fact, it's pretty unanimous.

Even people that concede that his private life is his own have agreed that his job is probably untenable and these are his supporters.

Gordon Brown and Max Mosely. Dead men walking.

[Valve Bounce]

I have been think about this all day. I would have to say that if my bank manager was caught in Max's dalliances, I would change banks.

And if my boss at an engineering firm was caught in similar circumstances, first of all, I would not broadcast to anyone in a pub that I worked for that firm. And I would quietly be looking for another firm to work for.

I would rather not be associated with such a person anywhere, not even going to the footy with.

[ArrowsFA1]

That letter really has pulled the rug out from underneath Max. It is almost a coup de gras.
Bernie's letter does make interesting reading.


We believe it is to the benefit of Formula One that the FIA should have a transparent and robust governance structure and that it should discharge its regulatory responsibilities in a fair, impartial and non-discriminatory manner, without external influence or interference, led by a credible and respected President
This seems to address some of the criticisms of Max made by others.

Those agreements are valid and binding on the parties and will in all material respects become operative in 2011. They do not need to be altered or renegotiated unless both parties wish to do so
This completely undermines Max's argument that he must stay in post to "save" F1.

Formula One continues to be of tremendous benefit to the FIA. It derives in excess of US$ 25 million each year from Formula One (not including fines, which are often substantial sums) which subsidises other aspects of the sport...
Could be seen as a dig at the imposition of one fine in particular.

We intend to continue our successful relationship with the FIA. We believe it benefits Formula One as a whole. We have no reason to undermine the FIA or its President, on the contrary we believe a strong FIA led by a respected President is good for all key constituents of Formula One
There it is again..."respected"...the inference being Max is not.

[Knock-on]

Bernie's letter does make interesting reading.


This seems to address some of the criticisms of Max made by others.

This completely undermines Max's argument that he must stay in post to "save" F1.

Could be seen as a dig at the imposition of one fine in particular.

There it is again..."respected"...the inference being Max is not.

So, basically Bernie is saying Max is vindictive, creaming off F1 and is not fit to represent the FIA.

I would say that war has commenced if Max does not step down. This is worded very strongly and if battle commences, it could rip a gaping hole in the sport.

Nobody wants that.

[Valve Bounce]

The letter I linked above from F1.com appears to be an abbreviated version; here is the full letter: http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/67657

I think that if Max does not step down, the relationship will go from frosty to deep freeze between Bernie and Max. This could seriously undermine the running of F1.

[MAX_THRUST]

The letter from Bernie you would think would be the last nail in Max's coffin.

I cannot believe the arrogance of Max to think he can continue on in any official role within the FIA. I'm sure there is a spot in the post room for him, where no one can see him. He has dragged this out and is trying to stay a float, with a concrete block tied to his feet.

If I got caught I would have gone by now, just to save my family the humilation of the whole affair. Arrogant fool....the world is full of them.

[Bagwan]

There are "ambiguities" in the 100 year agreement that need to be worked out ?
Sounds like the "agreement" has some disagreement in it .
Sounds like it doesn't come into effect until 2011 .
Sounds like the white knight Bernie is painting a picture here .

We don't want control of the regulations but we want you to talk to us first , before making any rash moves .

Gimme a break , guys .
You all slag Bernie , until he's a good tool with which to slag Max .

Let's see if Max responds .

[Tallgeese]

In less than 2 weeks, Mosley will either be dumped or retained by the FIA on June 3. I thought this subject should be brought up again.

He now states, "FIA risk losing control of F1 if I am dumped". Although I have to say I expected this type of politics from him ahead of the meeting.

Here's a long but interesting read:
http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/67479



The underlined parts are probably the parts that'll scare some people into voting for his retainment.

The part in bold is interesting. Because, at times, giving someone else control over F1 regulations seems like a damn good idea at times!





In the end, Max Mosley knows that as President of FIA he hasn't been in total control of FOM (Formula One Management) & realistically it's Eccelstone who has been running F1 as a unit that just happens to be part of FIA. I don't know what the fuss is between Mosely & Eccelstone but let's talk about 'private lives' for a while.

Max Mosely is the son of Sir. Oswald Mosley, the British Facist Leader who who supported Hitler & slaps strippers dressed in Nazi costumes on the backside & rants in German. Bernie Eccelstone is Jewish married to a Croatian woman (& former super-model) who happens to be taller than most F1 drivers, & he's shorter than most women I know.

Do these things really concern us or F1?

I have to admit, I don't care that Eccelstone is Jewish, that he votes Labour,& I really don't care what Mosley's father was or what Max does behind closed doors, & whoever prys on somebody is the real creep around here. Was it really to them to bring this out?

[Tallgeese]

Everybody is missing the major point.

What Max Mosley does behind closed doors is his own business & has no place in FIA. It is indeed inapprorpriate behaviour, but it's not like he made it a priority to reveal it to the public. Drunken behaviour or public offences are quite something else. He kept it behind closed doors, fair enough, but who is anybody to sneak up on him behind closed doors?

Would it have made any difference if those strippers were dressed in Ferrari uniforms (I personally fancy what the grid-girls wear in Turkey!) but does that really matter to anybody? In the end, it's part of an odd scheme that has more to do with so-called, 'Nazi role playing' than it does with a 'sex scandal' & invasion of privacy is a major thing that has been violated. Whatever happened to 'he who is without sin shall throw the first stone?' I guess some people don't learn their lessons & live only by prying. Especially those who pry on others.



I believe that Mosley is a victim of invasion of privacy & a campaign to discredit him launched by certain extremist groups.

[Valve Bounce]

I believe that Mosley is a victim of invasion of privacy & a campaign to discredit him launched by certain extremist groups.

Well, that's an interesting label for Murdoch's tabloid NOTW. Not that I doubt much of the rubbish in that rag is extreme rubbish.

[Valve Bounce]

This is the latest from Autosport: http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/67667

Of particular interest is the following passage:

"In the letter sent last week, a copy of which has been seen by autosport.com, Setsuo Tanaka, the president of JAF, claims that a vote was taken at the FIA Spring meeting in late April to make a fresh attempt to get Mosley to stand down.

Tanaka wrote: "The World Council has unanimously agreed that we should avoid (a) vote of confidence at the Extraordinary General Assembly on 3 June, because if President Mosley would get no-confidence, it would mean disaster to him, and on the contrary, if President Mosley would get confidence, it would mean disaster to the FIA."

However it seems that Max is unlikely to pay any heed to the pleas of those who are asking him to step down.

[ArrowsFA1]

Tanaka wrote: "The World Council has unanimously agreed that we should avoid (a) vote of confidence at the Extraordinary General Assembly on 3 June, because if President Mosley would get no-confidence, it would mean disaster to him, and on the contrary, if President Mosley would get confidence, it would mean disaster to the FIA."

That's it in a nutshell.

[Ranger]

Everybody is missing the major point.

What Max Mosley does behind closed doors is his own business & has no place in FIA.

And he should deal with his business as a private citizen... and not as a high-profile figure of embarrassment to the FIA.

That's what it's got to do with the FIA.

[Dave B]

Mosley surely must understand the message that's sent out when the heads of state of Bahrain, Spain, Jordan (during the WRC), Turkey and now Monaco don't want to be seen associating with him.

This weekend he's in Monaco but demonstrably unable to do his job because he can't or won't make public appearances. Yet he maintains he's the best person for the role and the man most able to negotiate new contracts for the FIA.

Everybody else sees the paradox, why can't Max? Is there a hefty payout if he's ousted rather than quitting? Does he genuinely believe he's got nothing to be ashamed of? He could have walked out a month ago still retaining the tiniest shred of dignity. By clinging on to his post he's making himself a laughing stock and seriously risking the credibilty of the FIA.

Just go, Max.

[Tallgeese]

And he should deal with his business as a private citizen... and not as a high-profile figure of embarrassment to the FIA.

That's what it's got to do with the FIA.


The problem is that it's been forced upon him in the media & even by FIA by some extremist groups who are out to get him. I don't defend for instant his actions, but 'sex scandals' (or Nazi-scandals) don't concern anybody else because in the end he is the victim of prying. It's not like he was 'caught' he was spied on & that should be condemned first.

[ArrowsFA1]

...that should be condemned first.
I think there may be sympathy for Max that his private life has been made public. He's not the first to suffer at the hands of an intrusive media, but we've gone a long way from that being the main issue.

The main issue now is his credibility in his role as FIA President, and the credibility of the FIA in retaining Max as its President.

Should he win the vote and stay on as President, can he be at all effective representing the FIA in all the work it does (not just F1!) until the end of his term, while at the same time defending his private life through the courts?

The latest is while Max continues to ignore those who want him to quit, including senior figures within the FIA, F1's engine manufacturers have declined (http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/67675) an invitation to attend a meeting with him in Monaco.

[ioan]

Bill Clinton had an affair with a secretary and the whole thing was made public and intensively discussed, still he stayed as president of the USA till the end of his term.

The private life of someone should stay private, and the ones to be condemned are those who infringe another persons privacy in order to discredit him/her.

Most people around here are happy that Max has problems because he dared to hit the cheaters last season.

Bernie is trying to take advantage of the situation in order to get more influence over F1 (it seems like the EC will however have something to say in the matter should he try to get hold of the economic and regulatory powers in F1). He also has some unfinished bussiness with Max, over the McLaren spying affair. Let's not forget that he was the one that kept FA and LH in the championship while Max wanted to throw the team out for 2 seasons!

things are not as simple as some think they are.

[markabilly]

This is the latest from Autosport: http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/67667

Of particular interest is the following passage:

"In the letter sent last week, a copy of which has been seen by autosport.com, Setsuo Tanaka, the president of JAF, claims that a vote was taken at the FIA Spring meeting in late April to make a fresh attempt to get Mosley to stand down.

Tanaka wrote: "The World Council has unanimously agreed that we should avoid (a) vote of confidence at the Extraordinary General Assembly on 3 June, because if President Mosley would get no-confidence, it would mean disaster to him, and on the contrary, if President Mosley would get confidence, it would mean disaster to the FIA."

However it seems that Max is unlikely to pay any heed to the pleas of those who are asking him to step down.


If max gets a vote of no confidence, it will also reflect poorly on the FIA as well, that the entire group had to meet to condemn the "stuff" that should never be out there, but is. Max should have quietly resigned and if not that, then never asked for the extraordinary gathering......

Meanwhile all the stuff going on (like pit box changes, letters about F1 and such) reminds me of the Pirates of Carribean type story line, where allegiances are always shifting back and forth to try to screw one another.

[ArrowsFA1]

Most people around here are happy that Max has problems because he dared to hit the cheaters last season...
"Most people around here" are motorsport fans who would prefer to be looking forward to the Monaco GP.

[ioan]

"Most people around here" are motorsport fans who would prefer to be looking forward to the Monaco GP.

That's why after 2 days of practice and qualifying we hit 32 posts in the Monaco GP thread, while we have plenty in this thread about Max!
That's a good indicator of how much people care about the racing compared to discussing Max Mosley's private life. :rolleyes:

[markabilly]

That's why after 2 days of practice and qualifying we hit 32 posts in the Monaco GP thread, while we have plenty in this thread about Max!
That's a good indicator of how much people care about the racing compared to discussing Max Mosley's private life. :rolleyes:
That is because all the passing makes it too difficult to keep track of who is leading the race or the wdc....... :burnout:

[ArrowsFA1]

That's a good indicator of how much people care about the racing compared to discussing Max Mosley's private life. :rolleyes:
It's certainly a fair reflection of how much coverage the 'Max story' is getting everywhere.

[pino]

That's why after 2 days of practice and qualifying we hit 32 posts in the Monaco GP thread, while we have plenty in this thread about Max!
That's a good indicator of how much people care about the racing compared to discussing Max Mosley's private life. :rolleyes:

Very sad indeed :(

[ioan]

It's certainly a fair reflection of how much coverage the 'Max story' is getting everywhere.

News papers and sites make money out of this, we don't! But that doesn't stop people from being more interested about this kind of things than they are by the racing. And we are talking about a 2 months old story!

But this is nothing new, tabloids sell very well everywhere around the world, and this is an indicator about the intellectual level of contemporary society.

[Valve Bounce]

That's why after 2 days of practice and qualifying we hit 32 posts in the Monaco GP thread, while we have plenty in this thread about Max!
That's a good indicator of how much people care about the racing compared to discussing Max Mosley's private life. :rolleyes:

More to it than that. This has turned into "A disgraceful person being the President of the FIA".

If such a person was the headmaster of the school my children went to when they were young, I would have asked for the Headmaster to be replaced or taken my children to another school.

[ioan]

More to it than that. This has turned into "A disgraceful person being the President of the FIA".

If such a person was the headmaster of the school my children went to when they were young, I would have asked for the Headmaster to be replaced or taken my children to another school.

You need quite some imagination to compare the FIA with the school where your kids went when they were very young, and Max with it's Headmaster. :rolleyes:
Sorry but this is starting to go towards ridiculous.

[ioan]

Very sad indeed :(

To be honest, pino, I was amazed that the only people interested by the qualys were you and me.

[SGWilko]

To be honest, pino, I was amazed that the only people interested by the qualys were you and me.

If your grumble is with the amount of posts in this thread, as opposed to the Monaco one, could I ask why you post in here so much? :confused:

[ArrowsFA1]

The FIA is in a 'critical' situation and could suffer serious damage to its image and credibility unless Max Mosley resigns, a number of leading automobile clubs have warned the FIA president in a last ditch plea ahead of next week's confidence vote.

"We strongly believe that the only respectable way forward for the FIA, and for yourself, is to have an orderly transition, with an immediate agreement and your commitment to step down," said the letter, a copy of which has been seen by autosport.com.

"The FIA is in a critical situation. Its image, reputation and credibility are being severely eroded. Every additional day that this situation persists, the damage increases. There is no way back."

"We deeply regret your refusal to accept the proposal (http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/67807)by the members of the World Council for Automobile Mobility and Tourism to reach an agreement for you to step down at the General Assembly in the coming month of November," said the letter.

"This is a constructive effort to facilitate an orderly transition within the FIA and to find a solution to the present crisis.

"Instead, your intention to remain until the end of your term in 2009, in spite of the severe damage being inflicted to the FIA, could imply putting personal considerations before the interests of the FIA and its member clubs."

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/67809

[SGWilko]

Most people around here are happy that Max has problems because he dared to hit the cheaters last season.


That's just your misguided perception, ioan. Most peoples' dissatisfaction with Max lies at the heart of his abuse of power, willfully forcing through new laws and regs thinly disguised as sporting or safety. I think the guy is a megalomaniac, and that is probably one of his better traits!! :p :

[ioan]

Suffers serious damage?

Can someone tell us what damage did the FIA suffer in the last 2 months?!

Politics aside nothing bad happened to anyone, all the FIA sanctioned sports went ahead as if nothing happened.

[SGWilko]

Suffers serious damage?

Can someone tell us what damage did the FIA suffer in the last 2 months?!

Politics aside nothing bad happened to anyone, all the FIA sanctioned sports went ahead as if nothing happened.

The head of the FIA cannot be seen with, or is avoided at all costs by all manner of high powered people in the sport, and yet he still thinks everything is tickety boo.

A good percentage of the member clubs have offered a face saving deal, but MAx refuses.

All Max wants, is to get voted out, so he can attempt to claim more damages. But that wont work, he has been on record stating (in the past) that he would serve no more that two terms, how much has be U-Turned on that one.

I guess he used to be indecisive, but he aint sure any more.... ;)

[ioan]

That's just your misguided perception, ioan.
I can say the same about your perception. That doesn't prove anything.


Most peoples' dissatisfaction with Max lies at the heart of his abuse of power, willfully forcing through new laws and regs thinly disguised as sporting or safety.


If you would have used your cognitive processes you would have realized that if he wouldn't have pushed things through based on the safety concerns, which is the only time he imposed anything, than nothing at all would have changed in F1 because in F1 unanimity is needed in order to change things and that is rarely achieved.

He changed lots of things in better in F1. He hugely worked towards improving the safety in motor sports. We got to the point where we don't have TC anymore and this going against McLaren and Williams opposition for many years.
He was on the brink of bringing back customers car teams to F1, and again it was the teams who stopped him doing so.
2 race engines and 4 race gearboxes might seem against the spirit of F1 but made life easier for smaller teams.
Engine freeze is against the spirit of F1 but it helps again cutting the costs for the small teams who don't have to foot ever increasing bills for their engines.

You see, he might have done things that seem wrong to you but all have a positive side. And than there are all those things that were simply in the interest of the sport.

The positives of Mosley's work outweigh by far the negatives, but you need some good will to try and see this, through all the bias you have against he guy.


I think the guy is a megalomaniac, and that is probably one of his better traits!! :p :

That's exactly the problem, you think and express plenty of things about him without knowing anything.
And I maintain that you are criticizing him based on him penalizing the McLiars, which is one of the best things he did in F1.

[SGWilko]

I can say the same about your perception. That doesn't prove anything. Isn't freedom of speach great?





If you would have used your cognitive processes you would have realized that if he wouldn't have pushed things through based on the safety concerns, which is the only time he imposed anything, than nothing at all would have changed in F1 because in F1 unanimity is needed in order to change things and that is rarely achieved.

He changed lots of things in better in F1. He hugely worked towards improving the safety in motor sports. We got to the point where we don't have TC anymore and this going against McLaren and Williams opposition for many years.
He was on the brink of bringing back customers car teams to F1, and again it was the teams who stopped him doing so.
2 race engines and 4 race gearboxes might seem against the spirit of F1 but made life easier for smaller teams.
Engine freeze is against the spirit of F1 but it helps again cutting the costs for the small teams who don't have to foot ever increasing bills for their engines.

You see, he might have done things that seem wrong to you but all have a positive side. And than there are all those things that were simply in the interest of the sport.

The positives of Mosley's work outweigh by far the negatives, but you need some good will to try and see this, through all the bias you have against he guy.



That's exactly the problem, you think and express plenty of things about him without knowing anything.
And I maintain that you are criticizing him based on him penalizing the McLiars, which is one of the best things he did in F1.

I don't really think safety is the issue here. It's the meddling he does - like the Renault damper, banned all of a sudden, the Michelin tyres, banned all of a sudden, the solution to the Indy fiasco that Max vetoed, his questioning the finances of a young F1 teams finances, holding back on their entry....... That's the vindictive side of Max to which I refer. :)

[ArrowsFA1]

Can someone tell us what damage did the FIA suffer in the last 2 months?!

Bahrain Prince asked Mosley not to attend (http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/66290)[/*:m:32i70tlp]
Toyota also critical of Mosley's actions (http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/66293)[/*:m:32i70tlp]
Honda asks FIA to consider Mosley's role (http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/66295)[/*:m:32i70tlp]
Theissen stands by Mosley criticism (http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/66308)[/*:m:32i70tlp]
ADAC tells Mosley to reconsider his role (http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/66319)[/*:m:32i70tlp]
Dutch federation wants Mosley to quit (http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/66324)[/*:m:32i70tlp]
American body asks Mosley to step down (http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/66407)[/*:m:32i70tlp]
Ickx joins calls for Mosley resignation (http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/66459)[/*:m:32i70tlp]
Lauda also joins call for Mosley to go (http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/66470)[/*:m:32i70tlp]
Mosley faces more calls to resign (http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/66535)[/*:m:32i70tlp]
Hill: Mosley should reconsider position (http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/66632)[/*:m:32i70tlp]
South African body tells Mosley to quit (http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/66670)[/*:m:32i70tlp]
Porsche: scandal makes F1 unattractive (http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/66708)[/*:m:32i70tlp]
Webber: F1 'cannot afford' Mosley scandal (http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/66731)[/*:m:32i70tlp]
Israel withdraws Mosley invite (http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/66842)[/*:m:32i70tlp]
Mosley to skip official functions in Monaco (http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/67458)[/*:m:32i70tlp]
Car makers skip FIA engine meeting (http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/67675)[/*:m:32i70tlp]
Politics aside nothing bad happened to anyone, all the FIA sanctioned sports went ahead as if nothing happened.
Perhaps, but you can't simply set aside one aspect of this. The effect is cumulative. As a number of leading automobile clubs have made clear the FIA's "image, reputation and credibility are being severely eroded. Every additional day that this situation persists, the damage increases."

[SGWilko]

Bahrain Prince asked Mosley not to attend (http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/66290)[/*:m:1gp46he3]
Toyota also critical of Mosley's actions (http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/66293)[/*:m:1gp46he3]
Honda asks FIA to consider Mosley's role (http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/66295)[/*:m:1gp46he3]
Theissen stands by Mosley criticism (http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/66308)[/*:m:1gp46he3]
ADAC tells Mosley to reconsider his role (http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/66319)[/*:m:1gp46he3]
Dutch federation wants Mosley to quit (http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/66324)[/*:m:1gp46he3]
American body asks Mosley to step down (http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/66407)[/*:m:1gp46he3]
Ickx joins calls for Mosley resignation (http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/66459)[/*:m:1gp46he3]
Lauda also joins call for Mosley to go (http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/66470)[/*:m:1gp46he3]
Mosley faces more calls to resign (http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/66535)[/*:m:1gp46he3]
Hill: Mosley should reconsider position (http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/66632)[/*:m:1gp46he3]
South African body tells Mosley to quit (http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/66670)[/*:m:1gp46he3]
Porsche: scandal makes F1 unattractive (http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/66708)[/*:m:1gp46he3]
Webber: F1 'cannot afford' Mosley scandal (http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/66731)[/*:m:1gp46he3]
Israel withdraws Mosley invite (http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/66842)[/*:m:1gp46he3]
Mosley to skip official functions in Monaco (http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/67458)[/*:m:1gp46he3]
Car makers skip FIA engine meeting (http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/67675)[/*:m:1gp46he3]
Perhaps, but you can't simply set aside one aspect of this. The effect is cumulative. As a number of leading automobile clubs have made clear the FIA's "image, reputation and credibility are being severely eroded. Every additional day that this situation persists, the damage increases."

Don't forget, Max also said that 'her indoors' wasn't best pleased either! Perhaps he will be sked to skip his official husbandry duties also!!! :laugh:

[SteveA]

Don't forget, Max also said that 'her indoors' wasn't best pleased either!

Maybe that's the problem - if he resigns, he'll have to go home and face the music from his missus ;)

[SGWilko]

Maybe that's the problem - if he resigns, he'll have to go home and face the music from his missus ;)

No doubt, she'll slap hima few times and he'll be in heaven... ;)

[Knock-on]

Suffers serious damage?

Can someone tell us what damage did the FIA suffer in the last 2 months?!

Politics aside nothing bad happened to anyone, all the FIA sanctioned sports went ahead as if nothing happened.

ioan

You cannot carry on spouting spurious claims like this and expect people to take you seriously.

As Arrows and many others have demonstrated, the FIA has suffered greatly due to this fiasco and F1 has been dragged through the mire as a direct result.

This isn't opinion but cold, hard facts. Surely you can see this?

[Valve Bounce]

In all fairness, it seems that the problem is not with Max but with the people who just do not want to be seen dead near him. They are avoiding him like a leper. Poor Max. I almost feel sorry for him. NO!! NO!! I take that back. I must be having a senior's moment :(

[MAX_THRUST]

He's suing the paper for breah of his privacy......Doesn't matter that he paid for 5 women to have sexual intercourse with him, which I believe is still ilegal in this country. (what part of being in the public eye did he not understand - last years court case hearings brought his name further to the front of the public interest).

I think he has made this all alot worse for him self. Did you see him on TV at the race at the weekend? I didn't, no one else did Either I'm guessing. Right now he serves no usefull purpose and is dragging his family through more agony than it deserves. He is a silly old man, with to much money and two much power.

[Knock-on]

In all fairness, it seems that the problem is not with Max but with the people who just do not want to be seen dead near him. They are avoiding him like a leper. Poor Max. I almost feel sorry for him. NO!! NO!! I take that back. I must be having a senior's moment :(

In all fairness, that is why he should resign.

Through his actions, whether you agree or not with the way they were exposed, there has been almost universal demand for him to resign which he steadfastly refuses to. Even if the vote of no confidence goes against him, there is no motion on the table for him to resign or even to remove him.

He is incapable of representing the FIA at official functions because of the fall-out from this.

Surely this has caused considerable, and possibly irrepairable damage to the FIA?

[ioan]

Bahrain Prince asked Mosley not to attend (http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/66290)[/*:m:2lzj7bmd]
Toyota also critical of Mosley's actions (http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/66293)[/*:m:2lzj7bmd]
Honda asks FIA to consider Mosley's role (http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/66295)[/*:m:2lzj7bmd]
Theissen stands by Mosley criticism (http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/66308)[/*:m:2lzj7bmd]
ADAC tells Mosley to reconsider his role (http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/66319)[/*:m:2lzj7bmd]
Dutch federation wants Mosley to quit (http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/66324)[/*:m:2lzj7bmd]
American body asks Mosley to step down (http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/66407)[/*:m:2lzj7bmd]
Ickx joins calls for Mosley resignation (http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/66459)[/*:m:2lzj7bmd]
Lauda also joins call for Mosley to go (http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/66470)[/*:m:2lzj7bmd]
Mosley faces more calls to resign (http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/66535)[/*:m:2lzj7bmd]
Hill: Mosley should reconsider position (http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/66632)[/*:m:2lzj7bmd]
South African body tells Mosley to quit (http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/66670)[/*:m:2lzj7bmd]
Porsche: scandal makes F1 unattractive (http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/66708)[/*:m:2lzj7bmd]
Webber: F1 'cannot afford' Mosley scandal (http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/66731)[/*:m:2lzj7bmd]
Israel withdraws Mosley invite (http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/66842)[/*:m:2lzj7bmd]
Mosley to skip official functions in Monaco (http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/67458)[/*:m:2lzj7bmd]
Car makers skip FIA engine meeting (http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/67675)[/*:m:2lzj7bmd]
Perhaps, but you can't simply set aside one aspect of this. The effect is cumulative. As a number of leading automobile clubs have made clear the FIA's "image, reputation and credibility are being severely eroded. Every additional day that this situation persists, the damage increases."

You can also add that there are plenty of forum members losing their faith in the FIA!

I still expect to see some of that "serious damage" affecting the FIA because Mosely was caught with his pants down in his private life.

Truth is that it has no effect on the FIA, because if Mosely can't meet some sheik or president or prime minister than the FIA vice presidents can do it without a problem. The FIA also has national associations in every country, and these are the ones who mainly interact with their governments.

All this talk about the "serious damage" is hot air, it's politics, trying to make it look worse without actually being able to prove it, because there is nothing to prove, and that's exactly why no one is coming up with an example of "serious damage".

[SGWilko]

You can also add that there are plenty of forum members losing their faith in the FIA!

I still expect to see some of that "serious damage" affecting the FIA because Mosely was caught with his pants down in his private life.

Truth is that it has no effect on the FIA, because if Mosely can't meet some sheik or president or prime minister than the FIA vice presidents can do it without a problem. The FIA also has national associations in every country, and these are the ones who mainly interact with their governments.

All this talk about the "serious damage" is hot air, it's politics, trying to make it look worse without actually being able to prove it, because there is nothing to prove, and that's exactly why no one is coming up with an example of "serious damage".

Ioan, if you told us all there were, in fact, five fingers in a four finger Kit Kat, I actually think you'd expect us to believe you...... :p : ;)

[ioan]

ioan

You cannot carry on spouting spurious claims like this and expect people to take you seriously.

Give me a brake, because I don't have the same view as you it doesn't mean that there aren't others who think alike.


As Arrows and many others have demonstrated, the FIA has suffered greatly due to this fiasco and F1 has been dragged through the mire as a direct result.

This isn't opinion but cold, hard facts. Surely you can see this?

Hard facts! :rotflmao:

F1 is doing very good, much much better than last year when McLaren were tarnishing it's image with their cheating and lies! That's what I call serious damage to motor sport, not Mosley's personal life's details.

WRC is doing very fine too.

Races take place, people fill the grandstands and 99% of the ones watching the race all over the world do not know about Mosley showing his rear side on a video.

So, no I can't see your hard facts.
You and others failed to see how miserably McLaren and Ron Dennis were acting against the good of the sport 1 year ago!
That was hard facts, 780 pages of Ferrari technical documentation in the possesion of McLaren technical staff, with the early 2008 test McLaren incorporating 3 systems taken from those documents.

Still you talk about my seriousness and claim that someone's private life negative effects on a world wide association that is doing better than ever.

[SGWilko]

, 780 pages of Ferrari technical documentation in the possesion of McLaren technical staff, .

Thanks for pointing that out, I had no idea!! :laugh:

[ioan]

Surely this has caused considerable, and possibly irrepairable damage to the FIA?

Irreparable damage?! You talk like if someone lost his life. :rolleyes:
It's not like the whole automobile related sports, industry and tourism is dead now that Mosley can't shake the hand of the Prince of Monaco!

You better worry about the oil prices, now that will do irreparable damages to the motorsport! :D

[ArrowsFA1]

Truth is that it has no effect on the FIA, because if Mosely can't meet some sheik or president or prime minister than the FIA vice presidents can do it without a problem.
So the fact that the FIA President cannot do his job he is there to do is not a problem? The fact that the head of a global organisation is being avoided by those he needs to work with is not a problem? Seriously?

The FIA also has national associations in every country, and these are the ones who mainly interact with their governments.
And 24 of those clubs representing 22 different nations have called (http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/67809) for Max to resign. They do not want him representing them.

All this talk about the "serious damage" is hot air, it's politics, trying to make it look worse without actually being able to prove it, because there is nothing to prove, and that's exactly why no one is coming up with an example of "serious damage".
Sorry ioan, but it seems you're chosing to ignore those in the FIA who see the damage being done.

[ioan]

Ioan, if you told us all there were, in fact, five fingers in a four finger Kit Kat, I actually think you'd expect us to believe you...... :p : ;)

I don't eat KitKat and have no idea about how many of them are in a package. But I doubt that the fact you seem to know about Kit Kat adds something to the discussion at hand! :rolleyes:

Maybe you could share also your knowledge about Mars, Bounty, Kinder Bueno and so on, I bet someone will find it awesome! :p :

[Knock-on]

Give me a brake, because I don't have the same view as you it doesn't mean that there aren't others who think alike.



Hard facts! :rotflmao:

F1 is doing very good, much much better than last year when McLaren were tarnishing it's image with their cheating and lies! That's what I call serious damage to motor sport, not Mosley's personal life's details.

WRC is doing very fine too.

Races take place, people fill the grandstands and 99% of the ones watching the race all over the world do not know about Mosley showing his rear side on a video.

So, no I can't see your hard facts.
You and others failed to see how miserably McLaren and Ron Dennis were acting against the good of the sport 1 year ago!
That was hard facts, 780 pages of Ferrari technical documentation in the possesion of McLaren technical staff, with the early 2008 test McLaren incorporating 3 systems taken from those documents.

Still you talk about my seriousness and claim that someone's private life negative effects on a world wide association that is doing better than ever.

Why keep bringing up something that has nothing to do with the subject of the thread.

The car manufacturers, heads of state, members of the FIA, F1's commercial body, drivers, owners and members of the public, infact, almost everyone except you, feel this has been damaging.

These people know what they are talking about and they are the ones that opinions affect the FIA and F1.

How many fingers in a Kit-kat :laugh:

[ioan]

So the fact that the FIA President cannot do his job he is there to do is not a problem? The fact that the head of a global organisation is being avoided by those he needs to work with is not a problem? Seriously?

And 24 of those clubs representing 22 different nations have called (http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/67809) for Max to resign. They do not want him representing them.

Sorry ioan, but it seems you're chosing to ignore those in the FIA who see the damage being done.

You mean that I ignore those that want to see Max gone in attempt to take the power!
There is a $ 100.000.000 surplus in the safes to be shared, and I bet this has something to do with this sudden raise of the value of the FIA President chair, a position no one wanted 2 years ago! :rolleyes:

[SGWilko]

Mars,
Murray Walker worked in the marketing dept at the time the 'A Mars a day....' slogan was penned


Bounty, Can't help there, I hate coconut.


Always like to keep my audience riveted. ;)

[ioan]

Why keep bringing up something that has nothing to do with the subject of the thread.

The car manufacturers, heads of state, members of the FIA, F1's commercial body, drivers, owners and members of the public, infact, almost everyone except you, feel this has been damaging.

These people know what they are talking about and they are the ones that opinions affect the FIA and F1.

How many fingers in a Kit-kat :laugh:

I knew you would be interested about the Kit Kat discussion. I recommend you a conversation with our other cheep chocolate specialist.

Come back to me when you understand (not when you believe that you do) some politics!

Cheers and Bon appetit! :D

[Azumanga Davo]

Irreparable damage?! You talk like if someone lost his life. :rolleyes:
It's not like the whole automobile related sports, industry and tourism is dead now that Mosley can't shake the hand of the Prince of Monaco!

It's not just that though, is it? The big corporate names are shunning Mozzer's hand too, which means they would rather do something else to promote their good name than associate with Smacks. Which in turn, causes teams to close, people to lose jobs in the motorsport industry and so on.

OK OK, I make it sound like it is an apocalypse, but small effects can have big consequences too.

[SGWilko]

So the fact that the FIA President cannot do his job he is there to do is not a problem? The fact that the head of a global organisation is being avoided by those he needs to work with is not a problem? Seriously?

And 24 of those clubs representing 22 different nations have called (http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/67809) for Max to resign. They do not want him representing them.

Sorry ioan, but it seems you're chosing to ignore those in the FIA who see the damage being done.

Remember the (I think it was) Iraqi Foreign Minister, denying US/UK troops had penetrated Baghdad, when on a TV in the background you could see it all unfolding.

That Foreign Minister remind you of anyone? ;)

[ShiftingGears]

F1 is doing very good, much much better than last year when McLaren were tarnishing it's image with their cheating and lies! That's what I call serious damage to motor sport, not Mosley's personal life's details.

And they got punished for it. Also, nothing to do with the thread.


WRC is doing very fine too.

LOL
Are you serious?

[Knock-on]

I knew you would be interested about the Kit Kat discussion. I recommend you a conversation with our other cheep chocolate specialist.

Come back to me when you understand (not when you believe that you do) some politics!

Cheers and Bon appetit! :D

You can't just duck the issue by spouting some rhetoric and trying to deflect attention away from an obviously unsustainable, unjustifiable and unfounded.

You can spin away like a political frisbee for all I care but the basic facts remain.

Max's refusal to bow to sustained and almost universal pressure has damaged the FIA's credability.

You can deny it till the cows come home but as I said earlier, nobody takes you seriously because of stances like this.

[ArrowsFA1]

You mean that I ignore those that want to see Max gone in attempt to take the power...a position no one wanted 2 years ago!
An interesting point you raise there. In April 2005 Max Mosley proposed and had approved a change to the FIA structure regarding the election of a President. The change required any candidate to present a full cabinet in the elections and secure his deputies in advance. This is something the incumbent would have little problem doing, but made any challenger's task very difficult, if not impossible. Needless to say Max was re-elected unopposed the same year.

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/43253

[ioan]

Max's refusal to bow to sustained and almost universal pressure has damaged the FIA's credability.

We will see how sustained and universal that pressure is, next Tuesday.

[Valve Bounce]

Remember the (I think it was) Iraqi Foreign Minister, denying US/UK troops had penetrated Baghdad, when on a TV in the background you could see it all unfolding.

That Foreign Minister remind you of anyone? ;)

Let me guess: 4 letters, starts with i, ends with n. Sounds like .............I better stop before pino bans me. :(

[Knock-on]

Let me guess: 4 letters, starts with i, ends with n. Sounds like .............I better stop before pino bans me. :(

:laugh: Bit like Clinton and his "I have not had sexual relations with that woman" :laugh:

[ArrowsFA1]

Come back to me when you understand (not when you believe that you do) some politics!
How about this for politics:
http://www.pitpass.com/fes_php/pitpass_news_item.php?fes_art_id=34932

[Knock-on]

How about this for politics:
http://www.pitpass.com/fes_php/pitpass_news_item.php?fes_art_id=34932

WOW!!

We have long suspected this sort of insider dealing went on but this is far more damaging to MM and the FIA than a dancing troop of Nazi clad call girls.

The whole role, responsibility and integrity as a governing body has been called into question.

Let's not focus on the "Schumacher gifted a false WDC" angle please but on the big picture.

If substantiated (I'll come onto this) this basically means that MM and BE engineered a WDC for financial reasons against a team that were racing illegally. This is not just a moral issue now but a very serious CRIMINAL one. It isn't just tantamount to fraud but is a prima faca case. BE and MM have defrauded the sport for personal gain.

Now, can this be substantiated? Well, what are the chances of a legal investigation? The police were more than happy to get involved with a dossier so you would suppose they would relish getting to the bottom of this accusation. I wonder, I wonder.

Even if they don’t investigate, then Max needs to deny the charges leveled at him in Court. If false, this is serious defamation of character (I know, MM and good character in the same sentence is hard to comprehend) so Max needs to sue the originators of this lie. IF IT’S A LIE!!

I think that there will be no action taken by any authority or Max himself somehow. Just a hunch ;)

[Valve Bounce]

This will make it very difficult for either Max and Bernie not to take action against Sunday Express. There is quite possibly more to come from the tabloid.

This will make it very difficult for either Max and Bernie not to take action against Sunday Express.

I have no intention of taking action. It's all a joke and anyone who claims otherwise will be shot!!!

Now, I understand ioan is here messing about when he should be working on my legal defence.

I'll count to 3 ioan.

Eins
Zwei
Drei

[Bagwan]

Funny this is out now .
At one time , nobody else wanted the job .

There must be an underlying motive here , or why not just wait for him to end his term ?

Why bother "stinging" him now ?
Someone has something to gain by his going home early .

This is going to get uglier and uglier .

And , everybody will blame Max , until we find the real culprit .
Then , all will gasp .

No , I don't know who , as there are many suspects .

[SGWilko]

Funny this is out now .
At one time , nobody else wanted the job .


Reading Arrows' post above (#162), it appears a suitable candidate would have had to have moved a mountain to be able to present himself as a suitable replacement.

So Max had just made it bleedin' difficult for himself to be succeeded.

As for the politics post that followed (#166), that shows a real example of Max's abuse of power. :eek:

[SGWilko]

Funny this is out now .
At one time , nobody else wanted the job .

There must be an underlying motive here , or why not just wait for him to end his term ?

Why bother "stinging" him now ?
Someone has something to gain by his going home early .

This is going to get uglier and uglier .

And , everybody will blame Max , until we find the real culprit .
Then , all will gasp .

No , I don't know who , as there are many suspects .

Baggy, you need to change your sig to 'no car, no car.......'

[ioan]

How about this for politics:
http://www.pitpass.com/fes_php/pitpass_news_item.php?fes_art_id=34932

That's not news, it was around last year too, when they had to deal with the McCheaters.
However everyone around here decided to overlook it because it wasn't in the interest of McLaren.

[ioan]

Reading Arrows' post above (#162), it appears a suitable candidate would have had to have moved a mountain to be able to present himself as a suitable replacement.

No one even tried, so let's not talk about moving mountains.

[SGWilko]

That's not news, it was around last year too, when they had to deal with the McCheaters.
However everyone around here decided to overlook it because it wasn't in the interest of McLaren.

Don't remember any reference to Max's 'insider dealing' re Benetton in the forums last year in respect of Stepneygate. But if it was bandied around, it would only have added fuel to the fire vis a vis Max's complete hypocrisy. :)

[SGWilko]

No one even tried.

Can't imagine why not? ;)

[ArrowsFA1]

That's not news, it was around last year too...

Benetton were certainly discussed because doing a quick search I came across these comments:

[quote=Osella;400546 (http://www.motorsportforums.com/forums/showthread.php?p=400546&highlight=Benetton#post400546)]
You don't perchance remember 1994 then...? And the 'real' reason Michael Schumacher copped a three race ban for overtaking on the parade lap!? A certain Italian team boss of a certain Anglo-Italian team wrote an open letter saying a certain FIA president was not fit for the job...his team was then investigated over; traction control, fuel filling, warm-up lap driving, ignoring a wrongly-issued penalty (by the FIA's own stewards no less) and very nearly lost the world championship as a result. There were no murmors or a 'witch hunt' back then by the FIA against Benetton, and indeed certainly in the British press (less so in the specialist motorsport press however) it was assumed they had been cheating all along and should be thrown out.

[quote=Harm Kuijpers;359232 (http://www.motorsportforums.com/forums/showthread.php?p=359558&highlight=Benetton#post359558)]
Geee... remember 1994? When Benetton cheated with driver aids (they were on the car, they just couldn't prove they had actually used em) and MS still won the WDC. Talking about disputable WDCs...

[quote=ioan;347991 (http://www.motorsportforums.com/forums/showthread.php?p=347991&highlight=Benetton#post347991)]
A case that is more like what we have no is the 94 Benetton TC case, and there again Max and Bernie orchestrated everything just like now, "for the well being of the sport" and their pockets....

But I don't believe the extent of Max's involvement in influencing the outcome was known at the time. Perhaps someone else can find something that says differently.

[SGWilko]

Benetton were certainly discussed because doing a quick search I came across these comments:

[quote=Osella;400546 (http://www.motorsportforums.com/forums/showthread.php?p=400546&highlight=Benetton#post400546)]
You don't perchance remember 1994 then...? And the 'real' reason Michael Schumacher copped a three race ban for overtaking on the parade lap!? A certain Italian team boss of a certain Anglo-Italian team wrote an open letter saying a certain FIA president was not fit for the job...his team was then investigated over; traction control, fuel filling, warm-up lap driving, ignoring a wrongly-issued penalty (by the FIA's own stewards no less) and very nearly lost the world championship as a result. There were no murmors or a 'witch hunt' back then by the FIA against Benetton, and indeed certainly in the British press (less so in the specialist motorsport press however) it was assumed they had been cheating all along and should be thrown out.

[quote=Harm Kuijpers;359232 (http://www.motorsportforums.com/forums/showthread.php?p=359558&highlight=Benetton#post359558)]
Geee... remember 1994? When Benetton cheated with driver aids (they were on the car, they just couldn't prove they had actually used em) and MS still won the WDC. Talking about disputable WDCs...

[quote=ioan;347991 (http://www.motorsportforums.com/forums/showthread.php?p=347991&highlight=Benetton#post347991)]
A case that is more like what we have no is the 94 Benetton TC case, and there again Max and Bernie orchestrated everything just like now, "for the well being of the sport" and their pockets....

But I don't believe the extent of Max's involvement in influencing the outcome was known at the time. Perhaps someone else can find something that says differently.

At least the letter claiming the FIA president was not fit for the job was truthful!

And ioan's post you quoted was spot on about the Max & Bernie money machine. :)

[Mickey T]

well, my mail is that Max has promised enough favours to representatives of the little nations and there are real fears from the bigger nations that he will get over the line...

...but they have a contingency plan in case that happens.

my understanding is that if max gets his shenanigans passed, the larger organisations, such as the RAC and ADAC, the US, France, Italy, Australia, Brazil etc, will resign from the FIA and form their own governing body.

watch this space.

[Zico]

Bahrain Prince asked Mosley not to attend (http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/66290)[/*:m:1cw3yhsi]
Toyota also critical of Mosley's actions (http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/66293)[/*:m:1cw3yhsi]
Honda asks FIA to consider Mosley's role (http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/66295)[/*:m:1cw3yhsi]
Theissen stands by Mosley criticism (http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/66308)[/*:m:1cw3yhsi]
ADAC tells Mosley to reconsider his role (http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/66319)[/*:m:1cw3yhsi]
Dutch federation wants Mosley to quit (http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/66324)[/*:m:1cw3yhsi]
American body asks Mosley to step down (http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/66407)[/*:m:1cw3yhsi]
Ickx joins calls for Mosley resignation (http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/66459)[/*:m:1cw3yhsi]
Lauda also joins call for Mosley to go (http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/66470)[/*:m:1cw3yhsi]
Mosley faces more calls to resign (http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/66535)[/*:m:1cw3yhsi]
Hill: Mosley should reconsider position (http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/66632)[/*:m:1cw3yhsi]
South African body tells Mosley to quit (http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/66670)[/*:m:1cw3yhsi]
Porsche: scandal makes F1 unattractive (http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/66708)[/*:m:1cw3yhsi]
Webber: F1 'cannot afford' Mosley scandal (http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/66731)[/*:m:1cw3yhsi]
Israel withdraws Mosley invite (http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/66842)[/*:m:1cw3yhsi]
Mosley to skip official functions in Monaco (http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/67458)[/*:m:1cw3yhsi]
Car makers skip FIA engine meeting (http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/67675)[/*:m:1cw3yhsi]
Perhaps, but you can't simply set aside one aspect of this. The effect is cumulative. As a number of leading automobile clubs have made clear the FIA's "image, reputation and credibility are being severely eroded. Every additional day that this situation persists, the damage increases."

To your list add all the representatives from.. America (AAA and AATA), Singapore (AAS), Germany (ADAC), Finland, (AL), Canada (CAA), Brazil (CCB), Denmark (FDM), France (FFA), India (FIAA), Japan (JAF), the Netherlands (KNAC), Sweden (M), Hungary (MAK), Israel (MEMSI), Austria (OEMTC), Spain (RACC and RACE), Belgium (TCB) and Switzerland (TCS).

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/motorsport/formula_one/7425422.stm

[Valve Bounce]

That's not news, it was around last year too, when they had to deal with the McCheaters.
However everyone around here decided to overlook it because it wasn't in the interest of McLaren.

LINK PLEASE!!

[Valve Bounce]

At least the letter claiming the FIA president was not fit for the job was truthful!

And ioan's post you quoted was spot on about the Max & Bernie money machine. :)

I agree. I don't know where ioan got this from or whether he just suspected it, but he was spot on with regard to Bernie and Max's collusion. However, I don't remember any inferences going as far as the new revelations go regarding the inclusion of a German champion to bolster Bernie's pocket. Having a Pom WDC at the time made no sense to increasing TV ratings on the Continent.

[gloomyDAY]

Mosley needs to split. At this point in time there is only one of two ways this situation will end.

Humiliation or a tantamount of humiliation.


Give me a brake, because I don't have the same view as you it doesn't mean that there aren't others who think alike.Why should anyone give you a break? I thought the purpose of this site was to have some clash and get to, read carefully Ioan, a point. You've been writing a bunch of nonsense that somehow got linked to McLaren being caught cheating last year.

1) McLaren has nothing to do with this thread, let it go.
2) Mosley is being isolated by the F1 elite.
3) Maybe these are the reasons why people don't take you seriously.

You should take a look at the cold hard facts.


WRC is doing very fine too.http://images.encyclopediadramatica.com/images/a/a8/Worf_notagain.gif

Words cannot describe the stupidity of that statement.

[leopard]

Who is it, my bright and contrast functions are at maximum level but failed to identify him.
He resembles magician who hides behind the mask frequently I watch at "The secret finally revealed"

[pino]

One more time...please stay on topic and stop posting personal comments/attacks. Don't force me to do somenthing I hate to do :)

[Valve Bounce]

It is interesting that ioan tells me that Max has nothing to do with the Concorde Agreement and that it is Bernie who is actually involved with it. (see post #21 of this thread)

It is even more stupid of me that I believed him without checking the facts or asking him for a link to this piece of information.

I find it incredible how little I knew of Max until I stumbled onto this by simply typing Max's name in Google: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Max_Mosley
.........and lo and behold, it was actually Max who in his role as Legal Advisor to FOCA frew up the first version of the Concorde Agreement.

More fool me :(

I guess both Bernie and Max are/were trying to influence the direction F1 will head, as the regulations will affect Bernie's side very much, and it would be in Bernie's interest to ensure that if new regulations are drawn up at any time in the future, they do not affect the number of teams, the spectacle of the races and the money flowing into his pockets via television rights. The two paths are intertwined.

Whether Bernie would try to influence the FIA directly is another thing, as he could easily discuss the ramifications of any new rule changes in a friendly "unofficial" manner with the FIA before such rules are implemented. Of course, to do so, he would have to be friendly with the President of the FIA; a relationship which appears to be fading fast under the present climate of relations between Bernie and Max.

And to add another comment to the list of Associations who want Bernie to step down, I think most of the nations involved one way or another in F1 are keen for Bernie to step down quietly before any vote is taken. In fct, I would ask whether any of the countries involved in running teams in F1 are not on that list.

[ArrowsFA1]

To your list add all the representatives from.. America (AAA and AATA), Singapore (AAS), Germany (ADAC), Finland, (AL), Canada (CAA), Brazil (CCB), Denmark (FDM), France (FFA), India (FIAA), Japan (JAF), the Netherlands (KNAC), Sweden (M), Hungary (MAK), Israel (MEMSI), Austria (OEMTC), Spain (RACC and RACE), Belgium (TCB) and Switzerland (TCS).
And the Russian Federation (http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/67831).

[markabilly]

Now it seems Bernie has finally said Max should go but at the end of the year.....something about wife's birthday party being inconvienced by max being president of the Fia or whatever



http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/67875

[SGWilko]

Actually, I think he ought to leave three weeks on Tuesday, it'll lessen the FIA's embarrasment. :p :

If he is to go, do it now, don't let it drag on like a badly written Coronation Street storyline! ;)

[Azumanga Davo]

Actually, I think he ought to leave three weeks on Tuesday, it'll lessen the FIA's embarrasment. :p :

If he is to go, do it now, don't let it drag on like a badly written Coronation Street storyline! ;)

Hmmm, if we play our cards right, Max could be cast as Ken's sleazy brother.

Get Granada on the phone pronto!

[ioan]

This parts are the best ones:


"The last thing most people involved in the sport, including the clubs, would want to see is Max in a position where he could be forced to stand down," Ecclestone told the Telegraph.

"I don't want to see that. I've been a friend of Max for 40 years. I would hate to see him go in this way after all he has done for the sport."


Ecclestone emphasized that Mosley will not be able to carry his job any further because his reputation has been tarnished. And the Briton revealed even among friends, Mosley is being shunned.

Now, who would call those people friends?!
Does Bernie know what "friend" means? I highly doubt it, as it was always clear that his only friend is "money".


"Max is being punished for the wrong reasons. He has done a first-class job as president. Like all of us he has made some mistakes but 90 per cent of the decisions he has taken have been to the benefit of all. He deserves to be remembered for all the positive work he has done, not for an expose in a tabloid newspaper.

Well, he is being punished for the wrong reasons and his "40 year long friend" is backstabbing him most instead of standing by him when he needs support! Why is that?!

This is why:

"That is why he should announce his decision to resign now and not go through with a vote of confidence. That is not in his best interests, the FIA's or the sport's."

Bernie is afraid that Max gets the vote and stays, and he isn't anymore Bernie's friend after all that happened.

I'm almost sure that Bernie is one of those who helped catch Max with his pants down.

[Bagwan]

"Max is being punished for the wrong reasons. He has done a first-class job as president. Like all of us he has made some mistakes but 90 per cent of the decisions he has taken have been to the benefit of all. He deserves to be remembered for all the positive work he has done, not for an expose in a tabloid newspaper." -Autosport

Bernie says he should go for this reason , yet he states clearly that he has done a "first class job" .
"He's being punished for the wrong reasons" .

Bernie's reasoning leaves something to be desired .

Unless he feels that Max should go for some other reason . What about that other 10% of decisions that have not "been to the benefit of all " . Is that reason enough ?
Is that a positive enough way to go ?
Is it reasonably positive , or positively reasonable ?

He should go because of the expose , but nobody should remember that he went because of the expose , because that wouldn't be a positive way to remember all his 90% positive deeds .

Don't ask for the vote , Max , says Bernard , and we can sit down and hash this ol' agreement out before you go in the fall .
Is that the compromise ?

You're embarassing , but we'll work with you , until we get an agreement we like . That "we" , by the way , means "me" .
You're not fit to be seen with , but we'll sit with you and ask you to perform a role that we see you unfit to continue . That is , until we get the important bits worked out . Then you can pi$$ off .
No pressure , you understand . It's just that you'll lose your plum position a year early . That's all .

[SGWilko]

"Max is being punished for the wrong reasons. He has done a first-class job as president. Like all of us he has made some mistakes but 90 per cent of the decisions he has taken have been to the benefit of all. He deserves to be remembered for all the positive work he has done, not for an expose in a tabloid newspaper." -Autosport

Bernie says he should go for this reason , yet he states clearly that he has done a "first class job" .
"He's being punished for the wrong reasons" .

Bernie's reasoning leaves something to be desired .

Unless he feels that Max should go for some other reason . What about that other 10% of decisions that have not "been to the benefit of all " . Is that reason enough ?
Is that a positive enough way to go ?
Is it reasonably positive , or positively reasonable ?

He should go because of the expose , but nobody should remember that he went because of the expose , because that wouldn't be a positive way to remember all his 90% positive deeds .

Don't ask for the vote , Max , says Bernard , and we can sit down and hash this ol' agreement out before you go in the fall .
Is that the compromise ?

You're embarassing , but we'll work with you , until we get an agreement we like . That "we" , by the way , means "me" .
You're not fit to be seen with , but we'll sit with you and ask you to perform a role that we see you unfit to continue . That is , until we get the important bits worked out . Then you can pi$$ off .
No pressure , you understand . It's just that you'll lose your plum position a year early . That's all .

If ever there was a good time to say this.....

....'all's fair in love and war' ;)

Bernie can see the money haemmoraging out of his wallet!!! :p :

[Bagwan]

I'm almost sure that Bernie is one of those who helped catch Max with his pants down.

That's it !
That's how they can get rid of Max .

If he's Bernie's friend , and Bernie is caught for this sting , then consorting with someone like that would could be seen as "bringing the sport into dis-repute" .

[ioan]

And there were also reports, at the Turkish GP I think, that Bernie was trying to get all the F1 teams to sign a petition asking Max to leave. There were however 3 teams who refused to do so.

And he calls himself a "friend", the little $€£&$€£ !

[markabilly]

[quote="Bagwan"]

Unless he feels that Max should go for some other reason .
quote]

I thought the real reason was the reason he gave: "My wife had invited Max to her birthday party, (but) she was told to ask Max not to appear because of the embarrassment it might cause to a number of corporate guests." :rolleyes: :mad:

[ioan]

Unless he feels that Max should go for some other reason .
quote]

I thought the real reason was the reason he gave: "My wife had invited Max to her birthday party, (but) she was told to ask Max not to appear because of the embarrassment it might cause to a number of corporate guests." :rolleyes: :mad:

:laugh:
Good one!

In fact it's nice to see how Bernie throws out his "friends" in order to please the corporate guests at his wife's birthday party!

[Bagwan]

If ever there was a good time to say this.....

....'all's fair in love and war' ;)

Bernie can see the money haemmoraging out of his wallet!!! :p :


Do you think the courts will see it that way ?

How is Bernie losing ?
The whole world is focussing on F1 , about an issue utterly un-related to the sport .

The most serious repurcussions have been his missing shaking hands with dignitaries . That's hardly having much effect on the sport .
Except for busying all the governing bodies with a silly vote about an extramarital tryst , spending oodles on Paris hotel rooms , there hasn't been any need for any money spent by the FIA .
How's about a holiday , kids ? We ask only that you vote Max out , and that you refrain from the use of the "alternate menu" , as escorts are knid of a touchy subject at present .

[Bagwan]

Unless he feels that Max should go for some other reason .
quote]

I thought the real reason was the reason he gave: "My wife had invited Max to her birthday party, (but) she was told to ask Max not to appear because of the embarrassment it might cause to a number of corporate guests." :rolleyes: :mad:


No , no , no .
Bernie was worried that Max would recognise the girl coming out of the birthday cake .

[ioan]

How's about a holiday , kids ? We ask only that you vote Max out , and that you refrain from the use of the "alternate menu" , as escorts are knid of a touchy subject at present .

Funny, especially in the current context where we have the ADAC ( German Automobile Club) being one of the strongest opponents of Max.
Not so long ago there was a press release in Germany about how the Deutsche Bank (or was it the Telekom? don't remember exactly which one) decided to cut the money its highest level managers were receiving for extra-marital prances while on work related trips! :D

[Ranger]

I'm almost sure that Bernie is one of those who helped catch Max with his pants down.

Ha! :laugh:

Please, tell me how you arrived at this logic.

Bernie's problem is that Max's exploits are bad press for F1, the FIA, and bad news for his and FOM's finances. Otherwise he had no problem with Max.

He's probably doing Max a favour by telling him to go, because Mosley's bad press is not going to stop even if he 'wins' in two days time.

The simple fact is that the outcome isn't going to be determined by who 'wins', but by who loses less.

[Valve Bounce]

No , no , no .
Bernie was worried that Max would recognise the girl coming out of the birthday cake .

I thought it was the other way around - that the girl would recognise Max :D

I also like this part: ""Since the story broke I have been under enormous pressure from the people who invest in Formula One, sponsors and manufacturers, over this issue," Ecclestone told the newspaper."

However sad this may sound, F1 now is all about money and it has been for quite some time.
The days of Stirling Moss running around in a privately owned one year old Lotus are long, long gone.

[markabilly]

Time for another poll perhaps?? Will he win or will Max lose the vote???

After all, bernie's real concern is that russia seems to not want Max, and that could spoil another money dream of Bernie, running a GP in russia where the tobacco ads run wild and free everywhere....Ferrari could suddenly sprout those marlboro ads all over again, like china

[ShiftingGears]

I thought the real reason was the reason he gave: "My wife had invited Max to her birthday party, (but) she was told to ask Max not to appear because of the embarrassment it might cause to a number of corporate guests." :rolleyes: :mad:

Ahh yes. True friends ;)

I hope Max sues NOTW for all they're worth. It didn't expose any hypocrisy on Max's part, unlike if it were the ex-New York mayor on his "moral" crusade. It was merely to defame Max for defamations sake. Given a few months all this will be water under the bridge.


But as Alain Prost said, "Judge Mosely on his ability" - and THAT is why I want him gone. His hypocritical decisions in the last few years (such as "cost cutting" then bringing in the 2.4L V8's) and his inability to cater for other sports that FIA governs (look at where WRC is, as a large consequence of poor rulemaking) is why I want him gone. I think he has become lost in his own greed, rather than actually doing what is the best for motorsport.
http://www.sportspromedia.com/mosley.htm

[SGWilko]

Ahh yes. True friends ;)

I hope Max sues NOTW for all they're worth. It didn't expose any hypocrisy on Max's part, unlike if it were the ex-New York mayor on his "moral" crusade. It was merely to defame Max for defamations sake. Given a few months all this will be water under the bridge.


But as Alain Prost said, "Judge Mosely on his ability" - and THAT is why I want him gone. His hypocritical decisions in the last few years (such as "cost cutting" then bringing in the 2.4L V8's) and his inability to cater for other sports that FIA governs (look at where WRC is, as a large consequence of poor rulemaking) is why I want him gone. I think he has become lost in his own greed, rather than actually doing what is the best for motorsport.
http://www.sportspromedia.com/mosley.htm

Can the NOTW be sued successfully for invasion of privacy if they did not instigate the recording of the orgy. If they merely were approached by one of the female participants, they are just printing an expose are they not?

[pino]

This thread is not for discussing that "orgy" ...thank you :rolleyes:

[ShiftingGears]

Can the NOTW be sued successfully for invasion of privacy if they did not instigate the recording of the orgy. If they merely were approached by one of the female participants, they are just printing an expose are they not?

I don't know. But I suppose if it was that black and white as to give a yes/no answer you wouldn't need massive legal teams for this matter. And for some reason I think they do :p :

If he's suing in a French court over a British newspaper over an event that happened in Britain, and he is British - surely he could sue in any country if there was an advantage in doing so?

[SGWilko]

Also - why the hell in a French court?!

$$$$$? Because he can file for criminal charges this way too?

[ShiftingGears]

$$$$$? Because he can file for criminal charges this way too?

After some consideration, I'm sure it's his aim to prevent the FIA from seeing it first and foremost in the general meetings, so if he gets a French court injunction against the video he will do that. Although, they all can view the video in other countries, so I'm not sure how effective this option will be.

[SGWilko]

After some consideration, I'm sure it's his aim to prevent the FIA from seeing it first and foremost in the general meetings, so if he gets a French court injunction against the video he will do that. Although, they all can view the video in other countries, so I'm not sure how effective this option will be.

Well, NOTW sent a DVD of the 'incident' to all FIA delegates, plus, French Judge said while he could order the recall of all copies of NOTW in France, there is nowt he can do about the online footage.

[Bagwan]

The certified half-wit has a 100 quid note bet on , that Max will still be in his position at the end of the week , and that is some serious coin for a Scot .

[ioan]

Ha! :laugh:

Please, tell me how you arrived at this logic.

Bernie's problem is that Max's exploits are bad press for F1, the FIA, and bad news for his and FOM's finances. Otherwise he had no problem with Max.

He's probably doing Max a favour by telling him to go, because Mosley's bad press is not going to stop even if he 'wins' in two days time.

The simple fact is that the outcome isn't going to be determined by who 'wins', but by who loses less.

Going by your logics Bernie should have been the first to want mcLaren thrown out of F1 because they were giving "bad press for F1, the FIA, and bad news for his and FOM's finances".
However he did protect them against Mosley's wrath.

Bernie says he's Max's friend and so on, not even a week ago he was declaring war to Max! :rolleyes:

Bernie is the cancer of F1, even having a fortune of £ billions built on the back of F1 teams, some of them going out of business because lack of funds, isn't enough to the poisonous dwarf.

What Max was saying about the commercial rights negotiation with Bernie is the truth, and Bernie wants Max out in order to put one of his own men there to facilitate the terms of the new contract.

Max knows who set him up and his attitude towards Bernie suggests that the later might be involved in the sting.

[ioan]

After some consideration, I'm sure it's his aim to prevent the FIA from seeing it first and foremost in the general meetings, so if he gets a French court injunction against the video he will do that. Although, they all can view the video in other countries, so I'm not sure how effective this option will be.

In fact due to the EU legislation (that overrides any member countries legislation) the legal court decisions taken in any member country are to be respected in the other countries, baning it in France means it would be banned in whole EU, but not on a russian, chinese, us or any non EU internet site.

[Valve Bounce]

In fact due to the EU legislation (that overrides any member countries legislation) the legal court decisions taken in any member country are to be respected in the other countries, baning it in France means it would be banned in whole EU,...................

Do you have a link for this please? Not that I don't believe you - I just want to reassure myself that you are correct in this. I find it very difficult to believe that a court decision taken in England would hold in Turkey, say. But then, I am willing to believe you if you can provide some reference for this.

[SGWilko]

Bernie says he's Max's friend and so on, not even a week ago he was declaring war to Max! :rolleyes:


Not quite mr dog whisperer sir. ;) In fact, the letter from Max to the member states, attempting to turn the 3rd June vote of confidence into something else, said in as many words that the FIA was in fact at war from FOM the CRH etc.

Bernie has since moved to dispel this myth, setting the record straight that there is no 'war'.

Bernie I think has been embarrassed by his 'mate', certainly the 'Crown Prince of Bahrain and the overheard phone call from Max' (look out JK, that's a great Potter book title!) was bit of a humdinger in itself.

But Bernard is in it for the money, he does care a little for the teams though. :)

[Valve Bounce]

...................only because without the teams, there's no money :(

[Garry Walker]

In fact due to the EU legislation (that overrides any member countries legislation)
The Supreme court of Germany does not agree with your view.

[Garry Walker]

Do you have a link for this please? Not that I don't believe you - I just want to reassure myself that you are correct in this. I find it very difficult to believe that a court decision taken in England would hold in Turkey, say. But then, I am willing to believe you if you can provide some reference for this.

Turkey is not a member of the EU.

[SGWilko]

EU legislation (that overrides any member countries legislation) .

Or so Max hopes? ;)

[markabilly]

In any event, if Max is a sudden departure as a result of the vote, it will suddenly mean we have far less of interesting, hot debates about certain personalities.

No Max v. Ron, no more Max & Bernie stuff, Max loves Ferrari, max this and Max that...

All because of something that has little or nothing to do with actual motorsports

[Bagwan]

No trouble billy-boy , half-wit doesn't even believe he'll be gone .

If Max looks like leaving , there will be more worms flying about than any can could hold .
Watch Bernard try to close this affair down now , before it's too late .

Max's offer was next fall , and Bernie's was this fall .
Believe the press , and they have the FIA wanting it now .

It's one hell of a poker game , and everyone will be wondering if they'll ever get to see Max's hand .

[SGWilko]

No trouble billy-boy

Has this turned into an advertisement by Phones 4 you ( :up: :down: :up :) or something?

yeah, yeah.

Surprised the NOTW did not carry another juicy tidbit on Max this Sunday, that would have been a good time to do any knife twisting.

[ioan]

Do you have a link for this please? Not that I don't believe you - I just want to reassure myself that you are correct in this. I find it very difficult to believe that a court decision taken in England would hold in Turkey, say. But then, I am willing to believe you if you can provide some reference for this.

Turkey is not part of the EU.

[SGWilko]

Turkey is not part of the EU.

Turkey is a 'candidate' country.

[ioan]

The Supreme court of Germany does not agree with your view.

Tries to contest some decisions may arise in extreme cases, however that doesn't change the legislation, and EU countries have to accept the court decisions given by the other members.

[ioan]

Turkey is a 'candidate' country.

Yes it is, but it is no member of the EU. And it will not become one until they don't change lots of things, one of the most important being the justice system (they have to make it compatible with the European one)!

[SGWilko]

Yes it is, but it is no member of the EU. And it will not become one until they don't change lots of things, one of the most important being the justice system (they have to make it compatible with the European one)!

Like not chopping yer hands off for coveting they neighbours wife etc? ;)

[ioan]

Like not chopping yer hands off for coveting they neighbours wife etc? ;)

Yeah, something along that line, like the death sentence!

[Ranger]

Going by your logics Bernie should have been the first to want mcLaren thrown out of F1 because they were giving "bad press for F1, the FIA, and bad news for his and FOM's finances".
However he did protect them against Mosley's wrath.

Obviously a McLaren or Hamilton winning a title would have been good press, however.
You seem to be forgetting that for their shenanigans McLaren were fined $100 million.
But lets not go into that.


Bernie says he's Max's friend and so on, not even a week ago he was declaring war to Max! :rolleyes:

What Max was saying about the commercial rights negotiation with Bernie is the truth, and Bernie wants Max out in order to put one of his own men there to facilitate the terms of the new contract.

Max knows who set him up and his attitude towards Bernie suggests that the later might be involved in the sting.

What crap.

Max stated that the FIA needed him to negotiate the deal purely because he needs to save his own arse at the general assembly tomorrow.

Although having said that, Max should sue NOTW and other persons involved for all they're worth, whoever they are.

[Valve Bounce]

This will be the outcome, and don't forget you heard it from me first: Those voting for Max will vote he stays, those against Max will abstain, and Max will remain as President because he will claim he has an almost unanimous support.

[markabilly]

This will be the outcome, and don't forget you heard it from me first: Those voting for Max will vote he stays, those against Max will abstain, and Max will remain as President because he will claim he has an almost unanimous support.
Well, then that would go against what some have already seemingly announced as their "no" on Max vote.... :confused: :confused:

could it be that they are now afraid of loss of position or perhaps, afraid that Max and/or the fia will sue them, :eek: add them in along with his other lawsuits against Brundle and NOTW and all the rest? :rolleyes:

[Valve Bounce]

dunno!! I dreamt it last night.

[ioan]

What crap.

Max stated that the FIA needed him to negotiate the deal purely because he needs to save his own arse at the general assembly tomorrow.

That's crap, and I bet he knows more about the negotiations than you do.

[ArrowsFA1]

Motorsport's governing body is deeply divided on whether to retain Max Mosley as its president, according to a poll carried out by the Guardian...Having canvassed 100 of the 222 clubs which make up the FIA general assembly, the Guardian can reveal that 37% wanted him to go, 25% were set to vote in his favour, 9% were either undecided or not qualified to take part in the voting procedure and 29% declined to comment
http://www.guardian.co.uk/sport/2008/jun/02/formulaone.motorsports

[pino]

Let's see what members here wants (poll added) ;)

[Ranger]

That's crap, and I bet he knows more about the negotiations than you do.

Let's clear this up.

My view stems from a few of these facts:

- Max and Bernie have pretty much seen eye to eye in relation to the sport since about 1980.
- Bernie wouldn't suddenly whip out a headline that'd do nothing but ultimately harm the sport. Which would harm his finances. This is plain logic.
- Max, who is a politically cunning creature, obviously wants to retain his position as the FIA president. So obviously those claims were based on some degree of political motive.

Do you not think that Bernie (who "declared war" according to you) could simply have been retaliating to claims by Mosley that were incorrect?

Though of course this is all just speculation. None of us here are experts!