Month of May and a loss of Momentum.

[MAX_THRUST]

Ok, don't know what it is like where you live, but in the UK, the Month of May and Indy is a mystery to Mr & Mrs Joe Public.

There was massive momentum building with the IRL the first part of this season, for many reasons, worthy of note!!! Then May comes along. I agree tradition is worth keeping and always kinda felt nothing should break the month of may.

However this year it has killed the momentum the series was building. Ok I have only managed to catch two races so far on TV. So it is hard to keep an interest, but the net is my only link. There is nothing.

Simmonds, and Andretti get a ride. GReat, but how much clout does it bring to the series GLOBALY? Not a lot. Why can't we move on a bit and make some changes?

It seems qualifying is too drawn out and a bit daft. Yes bump day is great. Last chance to get in the big race. Like the year Penske didn't get in. Great. But the lack of real news is perhaps a drag for the series this year.....

The IRL needs good stories, big stories and possitve stories. I have heard nothing about, new sponsors for the race, etc etc. I'm not saying its not happenning, but it feels as if it has all stopped.

[BobGarage]

would help if our broadcaster (sky) showed some of the qualifying, but they don't. If they were to up their coverage of the month of may (from just the race) it would help keep the Uk's attention at least.

i don't know about lack of stories. autosport has been running at least one a day. indycar.com has had several a day. ok they are not all massive new sponsor X or look we've scoped this formula 1 driver for the race. But the stories are flowing.

that was the one propblem I had with champ car, i loved the series to death, but on their six week breaks in the schedule not only would the racing stop but all press activity would stop too and we'd hear nothing from the series. At least IndyCar is keeping stories coming on a daily basis.

[garyshell]

It might seem like a loss of momentum over there, but here it is just the opposite. There is a lot more "local" coverage of the sport on news outlets when the month of May arrives. The past ten years or so, this local coverage has down substantially, but this year it is back in almost full swing. Our local news shows cover the goings on at Indy on the evening news. The weekend local sports commentators have interviewed several drivers, including Justin and Graham. So, while it might appear to be a slow period from there, it sure doesn't look like it from here.

Gary

[dataman1]

You both point out issues that need to be addressed if the ICS plans to be a global product. Here in Indy, the even dominates the press but living in our own little world does not help promote the series globally.

I guess the question is, Do they want to be a global series? If so, they need to start acting like it.

[V12]

I remember my first year of watching IndyCar racing in 1993, there was daily interest and updates on TV during the month of May - admittedly that was probably all down to the Mansell effect but still.

I would hate to see the Indy 500 reduced to a couple of weekends just like any other race, and I don't think that is the answer. Sky just need to pull their finger out :)

[dataman1]

I would hate to see the Indy 500 reduced to a couple of weekends just like any other race, and I don't think that is the answer. Sky just need to pull their finger out :)

FYI, I visited with several teams last Wednesday and learned of some of the costs for a team to be there for a month. Teams from out of town have motel rooms, laundry, meals, transportation costs plus no days off work. The track may be closed but rarely is the garage. I also heard that it cost $10K to rent space to park a hospitality coach/tent and if you wanted to have food you had to use one of their approved vendors or pay another $10K for a food preparation permit. Reducing the event to 2 weeks would save a ton of cash for the teams IMO.

[Alexamateo]

It might be sacrilege for some, but Indy should really be reduced to two weeks. I would do it like this: Have opening day on Sunday the 11th with lots of hoopla and all cars. (Rookie orientation would be done say on the 8th beforehand.) Then Practice all week with Pole day on the 17th and bump day on the 18th. Keep the format the same with the ability to withdraw a time and try to improve your spot. If a day is rained out, keep going until the next clear day they can run at least 3-4 hours. Carb day on Friday and then the race Sunday or even Saturday (in order to have two rain days).

Back in the day, like Waldo's 1968 thread, it made sense to have the whole month, very open specs with lots of different types of cars and different technologies, they needed that development time, but now with a de facto spec car and engine, it doesn't make much sense. Also the world is very different today with much more competition for our time and interests.

It still needs to be longer than your average race, but not as long as it is now.

[Wilf]

FYI, I visited with several teams last Wednesday and learned of some of the costs for a team to be there for a month. Teams from out of town have motel rooms, laundry, meals, transportation costs plus no days off work. The track may be closed but rarely is the garage. I also heard that it cost $10K to rent space to park a hospitality coach/tent and if you wanted to have food you had to use one of their approved vendors or pay another $10K for a food preparation permit. Reducing the event to 2 weeks would save a ton of cash for the teams IMO.

So lets say we cut back to two weeks, do we halve the purse also? Would we schedule another race for the other two weeks? What are the travel costs associated with that. What race pays the winner more than last place at Indy pays, approximately $200,000? Heck, they could run it in 2 days, but I don't think they would pay the montrous purse they pay now. You can pay for a lot of hospitality coach spaces and food preparation permits with extra prize money you get at Indy.

[dataman1]

I understand and respect your point.

Here's some thoughts. For a 2 - car team to live in Indy for 20 days including housing, meals, transportation, payroll, hospitality/food permits, per diem, etc.. (This does NOT include car parts, tires, fuel, crash damage repair, entry fees, credentials, guest passes & tickets for sponsors, etc..) I estimate the cost to be in the $280K to $300K range. That is for 35 employees staying 20 nights in a cheap hotel ($90/night) with 7 rental vehicles.

I don't know the track costs but I would bet you could increase the amount to a total cost of around half a million. The big dollar teams most likely spend a lot more.

So where do you have to finish to break even?

I understand this is the biggest pay out of purse but I also believe those outside don't know the real costs. Granted there has rarely been a problem filling the field with people willing to gamble money towards a shot at the golden ring.

It has worked this way for years and will continue.

[ZzZzZz]

Don't take this one year out of context.

There are plenty of stories, bumping all 4 days of qualifying, etc. As Gary said, all this stuff works to build momentum for the race. As Indy grows now, post-merger, new contracts will be made and international coverage of the Month of May will increase over the next few years. We know the potential, right? Why be defeatist and move to decrease that potential? The current coverage is a lagging indicator. Sure, most people buy high and sell low, but that doesn't make it smart.

[FormerFF]

A whole month leaves too big of a hole in the schedule. Down here, pole day gets a little coverage, and the rest gets ignored until Memorial Day weekend. I'd like to see pole day qualifying the Saturday before, and have it for all 33 cars, then have bump day the next day. This way we could have another race in the early part of the month.

I sure am glad there's an ALMS race this Sunday, I'm starting to get itchy for some racing.

[anthonyvop]

There is no reason that the 500 shouldn't be run as a regular 3 day race weekend.
Tradition use to be an excuse for the long drawn out process but tradition was tossed out years ago.
As long as the IRL clings to the idea of the "greatest spectacle in racing" then the other races in the series will just be a sidebar.

[garyshell]

There is no reason that the 500 shouldn't be run as a regular 3 day race weekend.
Tradition use to be an excuse for the long drawn out process but tradition was tossed out years ago.
As long as the IRL clings to the idea of the "greatest spectacle in racing" then the other races in the series will just be a sidebar.


Oh please, anthony take your hate speech back to the CCF forum. We get it you hate the IRL, there never should have been a unification etc. etc. etc. It's getting REALLY old.

I agree that much of the tradition was pushed to the curb, but now it is begining to make a comeback.

Gary

[NickFalzone]

this is a dumb thread. Not your money, not your teams. What do you care how much they spend? Teams have been able to support the whole month of May in much worse financial times for the IRL than is in now. The dedication of time and money, the focus on this event is a large part of what makes it special.

[Sandfly]

this is a dumb thread. Not your money, not your teams. What do you care how much they spend? Teams have been able to support the whole month of May in much worse financial times for the IRL than is in now. The dedication of time and money, the focus on this event is a large part of what makes it special.


Because it is waste of time and money. Except for the local news media market there is no news during the week. Coupla hours of TV on the two qual weekends - and if it rains you get the silly rain topics. Sure the Indy market loves it - big money soaking the race crowd. Hoopla for the school kids and beauty queens, parade planners and "hoity toidy" big wigs in Indy

The expense and waste of time sitting around is not justifiable. They are in the racing business - not the sitting around business. Two weeks max. Lose the wasted time in the middle. That is all it deserves. Teams have been saying that since the 80's.

[F1boat]

To me Indy as it good as it is now. They say that it is like a separate championship and I like this. I would, however, change qualifying system to be in sessions like F-1, I mean, with knockout zones and qualifying between the top 10 at the end for Pole-Position.

[racer69]

As long as the IRL clings to the idea of the "greatest spectacle in racing" then the other races in the series will just be a sidebar.

Isn't that the whole point, Indy is "THE" event


Teams have been saying that since the 80's.

And as ever the 'Month of May' is unlikely to change

And that is good thing in my opinion :)


As for Australia the race has been getting good coverage in print & on TV. We have an Australian-born driver on pole, an Aussie in third & an Aussie who has a good shot at rookie of the year.

[mikiec]

Wasn't this one of the 'reasons' TG gave for forming the IRL? The argument from the CART teams that the 'month of May' should be shortened and in TG's eyes, diminish the spectacle/stature of the Indy500.

I think for us lot this side of the pond, it's just a Sky thing - they've had so much football to occupy their airtime with the end of the Premier League season, the Football League season and the play-offs as well as the Champions League final build up, plus the Guinness Premiership rugby season reaching its climax and not forgetting that Sky have got NASCAR now, so all their Sky Sports News bulletins are full of all that... plus cricket (yawn).

It would be better if Sky organised its sports channels more like it's done with its movie channels, with each one themed to a specific genre. So they could have Sky Motorsports and Sky Football as separate channels for example, but that's a subject for another thread, me thinks.

[millencolin]

As for Australia the race has been getting good coverage in print & on TV.

BOLLOCKS!

I have not seen a thing on tv celebrating the fact Ryan got on the front row. I watched the 6:00 news and the 7:00 news too the day that he got his front row spot... nothing! In fact, the only time Indycar makes it on tv is when there is a spectacular crash or if Will wins (obviously im going back into the champ car era too)

Heck, the race isnt even on free to air or basic foxtel! Its on ESPN australia, not good at all.

As for print coverage, i dont call making the news in a motorsport dedicated magazine good print coverage. I saw a tiny tiny paragraph in the Courier Mail about ryans efforts, a slightly bigger one for Will's win (he is a queenslander so extra coverage is a given for the Courier Mail) and thats it!

Since the merger has occured, Ive seen less coverage than for what I saw last year with Champ Car. maybe its due to the fact Will has won less, I'm not sure. But the coverage has been reduced. Coverage will naturally increase when Indy comes around (gold coast indy that is), as for now though, NASCAR gets more coverage and tv time (on Ten HD) than Indycars and the Indy500

[MAX_THRUST]

I'm glad I brought this up now. Interesting reading you all make....

Believe it or not I didn't realise pole had been set. Been away for a week and without internet access. So I had no idea who is where? Feel pretty stupid now, but it does validate my point that there is little information about the race. I do remember Sky years ago showing some pre race build up shows. Which I watched and loved.

I think the IRL have, as always been better at getting stories out more than CCWS ever did, but I'm not here about that, that's all done with now.

I do think two weeks build up today would be suffecient, as said earlier its not like you need a month to test how the Da;llara gets round the track. Probably the ssame set up as last year, just tweak it for the weather conditions.

[indycool]

The two-week format was tried back in the late '90s and the race lost much luster because people were walking around talking about the "month of May" and it really wasn't. It diminished the magnitude of the race. So they went back.

The problem this year for continuity has unfortunately been weather, blowing up two practice days and a qualifying day en toto so far and it's raining today. Consistently good weather brings consistent news, whether good or bad. That is likely the "spike" overseas.....when it rains, nothing happens.

[downtowndeco]

There is no reason that the 500 shouldn't be run as a regular 3 day race weekend.
Tradition use to be an excuse for the long drawn out process but tradition was tossed out years ago.
As long as the IRL clings to the idea of the "greatest spectacle in racing" then the other races in the series will just be a sidebar.

Hey, I know. Since you seem to consider Indy "just another race" and you don't see the point of devoting an entire month to it why don't you start a rival OW series to show TG how foolish he is? Perhaps stage a 500 mile event (at Michigan) on the same day as Indy to show the public that a race can be run in 3 days instead of 3 weeks and be just as good, just as important?

[champcarray]

I began following the I500 in the early '70s and I would actually prefer a two-week format. I'd love to see bump day occur the day before the race. Talk about suspense! "Who get's to race come back and race tomorrow?" Three weeks seems too long to me in the era of micro attention spans.

IMHO I think the split tarnished the I500, not the two-week format. It's been back at three weeks for a long time now but the pole day / qualification crowds are still small. Before the split, wasn't pole day the second-highest-attended auto racing event in the world -- bested only by the I500 itself?

Ray

[anthonyvop]

Oh please, anthony take your hate speech back to the CCF forum. We get it you hate the IRL, there never should have been a unification etc. etc. etc. It's getting REALLY old.

I agree that much of the tradition was pushed to the curb, but now it is begining to make a comeback.

Gary
I don't hate the IRL!
I never said I hate the IRL!
Nobody has ever heard me say I hate the IRL!

I did say I dislike ovals!
I did say I consider Indy is just another oval race!
I did say that with all the concentration on Indy it diminishes the luster of the other races.

[garyshell]

I don't hate the IRL!
I never said I hate the IRL!
Nobody has ever heard me say I hate the IRL!

I did say I dislike ovals!
I did say I consider Indy is just another oval race!
I did say that with all the concentration on Indy it diminishes the luster of the other races.


If you say so. Rememeber if it looks like a duck and quacks like a duck, it must be...


Gary

[indycool]

No, Ray, it wasn't the second-highest. The Brickyard 400 was and is.

And anthonyvop, it waddles like a duck, too.

[spiritone]

Special! Anybody that thinks the indy 500 is special is kidding themselves. Did any of you check out the grandstands during qualifying? How about the press and tv coverage. The charlotte race coverage dwarfs the coverage indy is getting. If it wasn't for danica getting gifted a win there would be even less coverage.

Face it, the damage tg has done to openwheel racing is going to take a long time to repair. The real winner in this split is NASCAR.

[garyshell]

Special! Anybody that thinks the indy 500 is special is kidding themselves. Did any of you check out the grandstands during qualifying? How about the press and tv coverage. The charlotte race coverage dwarfs the coverage indy is getting. If it wasn't for danica getting gifted a win there would be even less coverage.

Face it, the damage tg has done to openwheel racing is going to take a long time to repair. The real winner in this split is NASCAR.

Have YOU bothered to check the press and TV coverage before you started on this RANT? If you had bothered to do so I think you would find it is up signifcantly. Now that by no means puts it back to the pre split days, but is a lot better than it was.

As for the NASCAR coverage dwarfing it, gee did you figure that out all by yourself? Really that comes at such a shock. Thanks so much for letting us know. <shakes head>

Gary

[racer69]

BOLLOCKS!

I have not seen a thing on tv celebrating the fact Ryan got on the front row. I watched the 6:00 news and the 7:00 news too the day that he got his front row spot... nothing! In fact, the only time Indycar makes it on tv is when there is a spectacular crash or if Will wins (obviously im going back into the champ car era too)

Heck, the race isnt even on free to air or basic foxtel! Its on ESPN australia, not good at all.

As for print coverage, i dont call making the news in a motorsport dedicated magazine good print coverage. I saw a tiny tiny paragraph in the Courier Mail about ryans efforts, a slightly bigger one for Will's win (he is a queenslander so extra coverage is a given for the Courier Mail) and thats it!


What news were you watching??

Was certainly on the news here in Sydney, and in the papers down here as well.

Not sure what you mean about the race only being shown on PayTV, it hasn't been shown on Ten since 2004

[ShiftingGears]

What news were you watching??

Was certainly on the news here in Sydney, and in the papers down here as well.

Can't say I've seen anything on it at all.


Not sure what you mean about the race only being shown on PayTV, it hasn't been shown on Ten since 2004

Ten isn't pay TV. Also I didn't know Ten had any IndyCar coverage whatsoever.

[MAX_THRUST]

I think it is clear from this the IRL need a bit more global presence. I think their PR department has done alot, but we need more, if the series is to grow globally. Afterall in Europe and Asia we have various GP2 series, and its great racing.

[millencolin]

What news were you watching??

Was certainly on the news here in Sydney, and in the papers down here as well.

Not sure what you mean about the race only being shown on PayTV, it hasn't been shown on Ten since 2004

Nine and ABC news... nothing

I was refering to the fact that pre-unification we had coverage of CART/Champ Car on free-to-air tv (with the exception of the first half of last year, yet 7 picked up the rights from post-toronto)

Now, nothing, unless you are one of the handful that has ESPN Aust. Thank god i'm in that handful

I think it is clear from this the IRL need a bit more global presence. I think their PR department has done alot, but we need more, if the series is to grow globally. Afterall in Europe and Asia we have various GP2 series, and its great racing.

I'm all for more coverage this side of the atlantic, but realistically the new era of unified open-wheel racing in the United States has more pressing issues closer to home than catering for a minority (of which I count myself a member) of European racing fans.

The new series only started in March. This year it's surely best to concentrate the publicity resources and opportunities on the home market, where the bread & butter of the AOWR is.

Next year, maybe we could expect more coverage. Until then, I'm happy to accept that since I'm not in the IndyCar series backyard/catchment area, I'm not likely to be high on their current priorities.

[Rogelio]

I believe in the Indy "tradition" but that "tradition" has been altered deliberitely or non-deliberitely for many decades. The Indy 500 is a shadow of what it once was and that is one reason alone to make some changes.

The crowds that used to show up for qualifing are not there. TG has tried to build excitement by reducing the time before the race to two weeks, then the current top 11 driver qualifing format. The Ganassi's, Penske's, and AGR's have the money to play around with on the first day of qualifing, a huge disadvantage to the teams without cash and resources. This year some of the teams did not even bother running because they knew they could not compete. Is that tradition? Now, these money strapped teams have to wait for this weekend to qualify. Does anyone really care other than the true race fan who fills in those spots? Bump day is almost a joke compared to what it once was. The big prize is the pole, and that has been settled already. Do not get me wrong, I strongly enjoyed the bump days when there were quality teams and drivers, now the last few spots of the 500 will consists of field fillers or ride buyers (of course that is the state of racing). I could see the drama if there were 50 cars and only 22 spots left.

My other complaint about "tradition" is having three weeks off before the race. For the sake of momentum, have a race the third week before and spend the next two weeks qualifing and so forth. Tradition was when there were many engine manufactures, the excitement of a new lap record, a lot of teams competing to race, not to mention "quality" drivers...

Hopefully, Indy returns to its former glory. But, just because Champ Car is no longer a factor, that does not mean that all is well.

[anthonyvop]

Everyday the world gets smaller. We are a global economy now. For any major series to suceed it must embrace that fact. Sponsors demand it and you can;t have racing without sponsors.

That being said, of the 3 major races that day the Indy 500 will come in 3rd in worldwide interest and viewership. Way behind the Monaco G.P. and behind the NASCAR race.

Tradition is a wonderful thing thing but sometimes tradition must be set aside and a more pragmatic choice must be made.

[anthonyvop]

If you say so. Rememeber if it looks like a duck and quacks like a duck, it must be...


Gary
Duck. Duck........Goose.

[spiritone]

garyshell get off the koolaid man.


The indy 500 used to be the the biggest race in the world. The format that is used now is not working. Its not working at drawing spectators, and not working at getting press. TG needs to admit that the present format is a failure.


Cut the qualifying and race down to 2 weeks max and add a race in may.

Duck,Duck,........Goose

[garyshell]

garyshell get off the koolaid man.


The indy 500 used to be the the biggest race in the world. The format that is used now is not working. Its not working at drawing spectators, and not working at getting press. TG needs to admit that the present format is a failure.


Cut the qualifying and race down to 2 weeks max and add a race in may.

Duck,Duck,........Goose


I am not the one drinking from the CCF trough. Your hatred for the IRL is showing through. Some of us who at one time shared that thought have moved on.

Let's see the unification has been in place for just short of three months and the "experts" are already sure that the format is not working. This is the first Indy 500 since the unification. What are you expecting in the first year, a freakin' miracle?

I still challenge your "not working at getting press". Just exactly HOW are you gauging it? I will say from the press and TV coverage I have seen here in Cincinnati it is MARKEDLY different from what it has been the past ten years.

Gary

[downtowndeco]

garyshell get off the koolaid man.


The indy 500 used to be the the biggest race in the world. The format that is used now is not working. Its not working at drawing spectators, and not working at getting press. TG needs to admit that the present format is a failure.


Cut the qualifying and race down to 2 weeks max and add a race in may.

Duck,Duck,........Goose

I'll repeat what I told the other expert;


"Hey, I know. Since you seem to consider Indy "just another race" and you don't see the point of devoting an entire month to it why don't you start a rival OW series to show TG how foolish he is? Perhaps stage a 500 mile event (at Michigan) on the same day as Indy to show the public that a race can be run in 3 days instead of 3 weeks and be just as good, just as important?"

[indycool]

It is truly amazing that those who didn't care about the Indianapolis 500 while they were supporting CC have now shifted their attention to finding fault with Indy....in a year when "blendification" has taken place, the competitors in the garage all have let bygones be bygones and help each other and still the CW jihad drones feebly on.

For one thing, it's the Indianapolis 500, not a "three-day festival of speed" with half the speed. Traditions thrown away? Let's hear it for riding mechanics. They really got screwed because some evil soul changed the rules or format. Purse? $13 million? Is that worth three weeks' time? Attention? Google it.

[anthonyvop]

I am not the one drinking from the CCF trough. Your hatred for the IRL is showing through. Some of us who at one time shared that thought have moved on.Gary

So if I disagree with you I hate the IRL?


Let's see the unification has been in place for just short of three months and the "experts" are already sure that the format is not working. This is the first Indy 500 since the unification. What are you expecting in the first year, a freakin' miracle? Gary

Well at the merger announcement everybody was talking about how everything will improve. Attendance, Ratings, Sponsors....ect, right away. So far there hasn't even been a wiff of improvement.


I still challenge your "not working at getting press". Just exactly HOW are you gauging it? I will say from the press and TV coverage I have seen here in Cincinnati it is MARKEDLY different from what it has been the past ten years.
Gary
Using your gauge coverage has been MARKEDLY absent in the Greater Miami/Ft. Lauderdale area. Local TV zip. Newspapers just few few AP blubs.

[BobGarage]

It is truly amazing that those who didn't care about the Indianapolis 500 while they were supporting CC have now shifted their attention to finding fault with Indy....in a year when "blendification" has taken place, the competitors in the garage all have let bygones be bygones and help each other and still the CW jihad drones feebly on.

For one thing, it's the Indianapolis 500, not a "three-day festival of speed" with half the speed. Traditions thrown away? Let's hear it for riding mechanics. They really got screwed because some evil soul changed the rules or format. Purse? $13 million? Is that worth three weeks' time? Attention? Google it.

yes there are CW drones still fighting their corner, but then again (mentioning no names) there are equally as many from the pre-merger IRL side still fighting their corner in this thread.

I am watching the build up to the 500 for the first time since 1995, and I for one am loving it.

[garyshell]

garyshell get off the koolaid man.


The indy 500 used to be the the biggest race in the world. The format that is used now is not working. Its not working at drawing spectators, and not working at getting press. TG needs to admit that the present format is a failure.


Cut the qualifying and race down to 2 weeks max and add a race in may.

Duck,Duck,........Goose


I am not the one drinking from the CCF trough. Your hatred for the IRL is showing through. Some of us who at one time shared that thought have moved on.

Let's see the unification has been in place for just short of three months and the "experts" are already sure that the format is not working. This is the first Indy 500 since the unification. What are you expecting in the first year, a freakin' miracle?

I still challenge your "not working at getting press". Just exactly HOW are you gauging it? I will say from the press and TV coverage I have seen here in Cincinnati it is MARKEDLY different from what it has been the past ten years.

Gary


So if I disagree with you I hate the IRL?.

Was my reply addressed to you? No, it was addressed to someone, who if you bother to look through the short history of theire posts here (btw I did look) it would be obvious that they have a very bitter attitude toward the IRL. I quoted it above, just so you can see that it was not adressed to you, but maybe you identified with it because often enough your hatred does show through despite your claims to the contrary.


Well at the merger announcement everybody was talking about how everything will improve. Attendance, Ratings, Sponsors....ect, right away. So far there hasn't even been a wiff of improvement.

Really? Care to back up that assertion with some reality as in NUMBERS? Remember when you do attempt to reply that "hasn't even been a wiff" would imply zero.



Using your gauge coverage has been MARKEDLY absent in the Greater Miami/Ft. Lauderdale area. Local TV zip. Newspapers just few few AP blubs.

And one market means that it isn't happening anywhere else, right? I never claimed that what I was seeing here is happening everywhere. But again the original claim was "and not working at getting press" again implying zero increase.

Gary

[spiritone]

Drone on gary. My so called hatred of the irl does not mask the empty grandstands at indy. Would you like to argue that there were really people there.


Tell me why a format that has nobody in the stands should be continued.

If my hatred for the irl is showing so is your blind defence of everything that tg is doing.

By the way, are you an employed by the irl?

[F1boat]

spiritone, were you an employee of Champ Car?
Your series is dead.
Get over it.

[garyshell]

Drone on gary. My so called hatred of the irl does not mask the empty grandstands at indy. Would you like to argue that there were really people there.

No, I never said the stands were filled. Sadly they were not.



Tell me why a format that has nobody in the stands should be continued.

Be cause, as I said before we are less than three months into the unification. It is much too early to decide what does and what does not work.


If my hatred for the irl is showing so is your blind defence of everything that tg is doing.

By the way, are you an employed by the irl?

Really? Now THAT is a laugh. If you would bother to review my history here, you would find that I am the one who coined the term "...king George". My disdain for the grandson is well known.

I am a ChampCar fan, who is relived that the 13 year experiment is over and that racing goes on now under a single banner. And you?

Gary

[PTCrash3]

So lets say we cut back to two weeks, do we halve the purse also? Would we schedule another race for the other two weeks? What are the travel costs associated with that. What race pays the winner more than last place at Indy pays, approximately $200,000? Heck, they could run it in 2 days, but I don't think they would pay the montrous purse they pay now. You can pay for a lot of hospitality coach spaces and food preparation permits with extra prize money you get at Indy.

What the hell does eliminating two weeks of pointless time-wasting have to do with halving the purse? It's not like in the pre-split days when people actually attended practice and Carb Day and the rest. There's no revenue lost, unless you're just sucking off of the teams, which is just another thing wrong with this series.

[PTCrash3]

yes there are CW drones still fighting their corner, but then again (mentioning no names) there are equally as many from the pre-merger IRL side still fighting their corner in this thread.

I am watching the build up to the 500 for the first time since 1995, and I for one am loving it.

Sorry, but without the best oval driver in either series in the mix it just doesn't hold any interest for me. It's just another IRL race.

[PTCrash3]

Don't take this one year out of context.

There are plenty of stories, bumping all 4 days of qualifying, etc. As Gary said, all this stuff works to build momentum for the race. As Indy grows now, post-merger, new contracts will be made and international coverage of the Month of May will increase over the next few years. We know the potential, right? Why be defeatist and move to decrease that potential? The current coverage is a lagging indicator. Sure, most people buy high and sell low, but that doesn't make it smart.

I'm sorry but I just don't see the momentum you're talking about.

Same thing as the last ten years; empty grandstands.

[nigelred5]

For g0d sake, it's bascially been friggin pouring rain since last saturday. What stories would you like to hear that aren't out there. How can you generate stories without track time? It's hard to have on track stories unless they are going to race airboats. Still, there have been quite a few stories. $hI# happens once and a while. The way it's going with the weather, I won't be suprised to see the 500 run a week late to top it off. If there was good weather, half of us would be all over the former CCWS teams progress at improving their speeds. There are still drivers hoping to find a ride, still teams scraping cash up to make the field, only to be twarted by the weather. Now that there is a decent number of cars, they need to ditch that stupid 11 cars per day BS.

Give it some dang time to evolve again.

[Wilf]

Sorry, but without the best oval driver in either series in the mix it just doesn't hold any interest for me. It's just another IRL race.

I wonder how many other BEST drivers are without a ride? Seem to me if he was a shoe in, someone would put his shoe in.

[gofastandwynn]

Sorry, but without the best oval driver in either series in the mix it just doesn't hold any interest for me. It's just another IRL race.

If it is just another IRL race to you, why do you care so much to post here? And as far as the best driver goes, I think PT's career is listed up for sale at the CC auction in June.


I'm sorry but I just don't see the momentum you're talking about.

Same thing as the last ten years; empty grandstands.

Oh I forgot, CC had so many full grandstands that they were forced to close down because they just couldn't deal with them. :rolleyes:

[F1boat]

Once again let me remind EVERYBODY posting in this thread that it is about the racing and not each other.

Suggesting that Indy should be two weeks long is a legitimate position to take and so is saying keep the month as is. Debate the merits of your take on it and keep the personalities and/or snide remarks out, please.

OK, sorry for the outburst.

[ZzZzZz]

I'm all for more coverage this side of the atlantic, but realistically the new era of unified open-wheel racing in the United States has more pressing issues closer to home than catering for a minority (of which I count myself a member) of European racing fans.

The new series only started in March. This year it's surely best to concentrate the publicity resources and opportunities on the home market, where the bread & butter of the AOWR is.

Next year, maybe we could expect more coverage. Until then, I'm happy to accept that since I'm not in the IndyCar series backyard/catchment area, I'm not likely to be high on their current priorities.

WHAT? Are you SANE? (Well said.)

[ZzZzZz]

I'm sorry but I just don't see the momentum you're talking about.

Same thing as the last ten years; empty grandstands.

Well, let's compare this year's numbers to the last ten, then. Can you wait another ten days?

We are talking about the long-term format for this race, not just this year.

With only 3 months since the merger, the momentum is only just beginning for rebuilding the race and the series. It would be foolhardy to make long-term decisions based on such little data. Really, the results of next year's race will show if reunification is achieving its expected growth.

The model that worked before was 3 weekends. Changing that based on virtually no data is not just premature, but defeatist - meaning it could very well compromise growth.

[ZzZzZz]

The expense and waste of time sitting around is not justifiable. They are in the racing business - not the sitting around business. Two weeks max. Lose the wasted time in the middle. That is all it deserves. Teams have been saying that since the 80's.

All the extra sponsors, teams, drivers, etc. say that the expense and time are worth it. Those are business decisions made by the business people you are referring to.

[MAX_THRUST]

This isnt an anti IRL thread, its about the loss of monmentum. The rain hasn't helped much, it rains nearly every year though. A race three weeks before would help quell some of these momentum worries, and form a business point of view, you need your product up front and in your customers faces as much as possible.

Example how many adds show the 500 right now. I haven't seen one, but I live in the UK. Is it being heavily promoted in the US, CAnada, Brazil. With the huge contingent of Brazillian drivers it should be. With Australia and New Zealand drivers on the frony row you would expect coverage to be good there to. In fact any country with a driver should be promoting the race.

[millencolin]

With Australia and New Zealand drivers on the frony row you would expect coverage to be good there to.

If only....






(you'd have to ask a kiwi about coverage across the ditch, mine's an Aussie perspective)

Example how many adds show the 500 right now. I haven't seen one, but I live in the UK.

With the exception of Mansell's time in AOWR, the 500 has never had any pre-race coverage in the UK on terrestrial, free-to-air TV.

[DBell]

Here in the Atlanta area, there has been no discernible difference in the coverage from last year to this year. No real surprise as this is Cab country. I'll take Gary's word that it's up in Cincy and it makes sense the first places to feel an effect of the merge would be places regionally around Indy.

It'll take years for it to get back to pre split attention, if it ever does.

[Vegasguy]

I think we already have seen more coverage of practice and qualifying on ABC/ESPN as is. Last year I don't remember anywhere near as much.

I see it only getting better each year. You need to remember that long term contracts were in place before unification and ol twinkle toes and Danicamania along with good racing is going to make the negotiating position stronger when those contracts are up.

[courageous]

A de-facto spec series
Drivers are on the limit 100% of the time
Rain, rain and more rain
Cars/Engines that have run Indy many times that a set up is already known

For these reasons, a full month can drag; but at the same time I like the tradition and would like to see them make the month interesting rather than cut it down.

Cut down the practice time for indycars & run more support races, my wet dream version of the schedule would be sometime like:

Fri 2nd - Atlantics on the road circuit
Sat 3rd - Indycar race on the road circuit
Sun 4th - ROP
Mon 5th - ROP
Tue-Thur Indycar Practice
Fri 9th - Trucks on the oval
Sat 10th - Pole Qual
Sun 11th - Nationwide/ARCA on the oval
Mon 12th - 2nd Qual
Tue-Thur Indycar Practice
Fri 16th - 3rd Qual
Sat 17th - Grand Am on road circuit
Sun 18th - Bump Day
Mon 19th - Historic Indycars
Tue-Thur Indycar Practice
Fri 23rd - Carb Day
Sat 24th - Indy Lights on the oval
Sun 25th - Indy 500
Mon 26th - Victory Celebrations
Fri 30th - Indy Lights on the road circuit
Sat 31st - F1 Qual / Porsche cup
Sun 1st June - F1 Grand Prix

[BenRoethig]

Sorry, but without the best oval driver in either series in the mix it just doesn't hold any interest for me. It's just another IRL race.

Don't worry Sam will be back when he's sick of being a mid-pack stock car driver. ;)

[indycool]

Those who expect "microwave" growth from "blendification" will be disappointed. But, I expect if they actually GOT ballistically and so visibly improved instantly that the world would notice, those people would still REFUSE to notice.

Those who expect realistic development over the long term probably will notice differences here and there. Another well-sponsored team here, another new race there, a better-attended Carb Day at Indy, maybe a better-attended qualifying day at a Kansas or a Kentucky partly because of the ICS and/or partly because of some other feature a track has put on the weekend schedule.

Simply, those who desire to dislike it will find things wrong with it. The ones who don't want to dislike it might have a different preference in procedure here and there, but it doesn't affect their view of it much.

[spiritone]

Is this a forum where you can express your opinion or not?


Just because i don't agree with the party line, to bad. Microwave growth, thats not what i see in the stands at indy. Its simple people, the present formula is not working at indy. Condense the program down to 2 weeks and get on with it.


Did you listen to your god, Robin Miller, he says the format *****.
Davey Hamiton makes the field and he says it *****. This is not about the irl vs champcar, this is about the format at indy not working. My Opinion.

[nigelred5]

the 11/11/11 doesn't work and isn't necessary, but the month should stay the same as it is for the sake of the additional 9-10 cars that aren't series regulars having hte time and practice t omake quality additions to the field.

[indycool]

Spiritone, things change and some change faster than others.

Robin Miller is NOT my god.

Other changes have already taken place regarding bolstering the three-week schedule with different attractions, concerts, and the like. Those things happened DURING the split.

Now, there are more cars and the Bump Day was dramatic. With that in mind, the 11-11-11-BUMP may or may not change in the future. But it would surprise me if they ever diminish the magnitude of the race by going to a two-week format again.

Hamilton? Davey's always seemed to be an honest guy. He would've started 13th under the old system and he's starting 18th now. And because Sunday qualifying was rained out, he expressed that the first 11 got to work more on race setups.

He has a point. He was at a disadvantage in those respects. It could work to his advantage the next time. But I don't think they're going to try to make decisions on format based on when it might rain. That's insane.

[grantb4]

Ok, don't know what it is like where you live, but in the UK, the Month of May and Indy is a mystery to Mr & Mrs Joe Public.


It's certainly a waste of a good month to race the same cars on another oval, but drag it out so long. I can see how it made sense in the days long before the 500 became (largely) a spec series race. Bring back Andy Granetelli (sp?) and building special purpose machines for the race... or else knock it back to a weekend.

[MAX_THRUST]

I like what courageous said about making the month bigger! Why not envolve other races throughout the month at the circuit. In a way copy Daytona speed week. Make the 500 the big race, and have various other series in supporting roles as the month builds.

Bump day has happened and we have seen anything. Qualifying happened and I didn't understand it because I didn';t see it. But a tleast this year we had cars being bumped. Sorry to see some of them being bumped though. Dont understand the 11,11,11 qualify. Be better having three qualiy sessions where only in the very last one does the grid get set, but I digress.

[BenRoethig]

I like what courageous said about making the month bigger! Why not envolve other races throughout the month at the circuit. In a way copy Daytona speed week. Make the 500 the big race, and have various other series in supporting roles as the month builds.

Bump day has happened and we have seen anything. Qualifying happened and I didn't understand it because I didn';t see it. But a tleast this year we had cars being bumped. Sorry to see some of them being bumped though. Dont understand the 11,11,11 qualify. Be better having three qualiy sessions where only in the very last one does the grid get set, but I digress.

As it supposed to work the fastest 11 qualify on pole day. Then another 11 qualify on day 2 for positions 12-22 and third day for positions 23-33. Even if second and third day qualifiers are faster than pole days speeds, they cannot advance past 12th or 23rd. Then there is dump day. Cars are bumped depending on speed. So, in theory if a car in second round qualifying was slowest, the 22nd place car would be bumped, the new car would be 33rd and everyone else would be dumped up a spot.

[ZzZzZz]

Hamilton? Davey's always seemed to be an honest guy. He would've started 13th under the old system and he's starting 18th now. And because Sunday qualifying was rained out, he expressed that the first 11 got to work more on race setups.

He has a point. He was at a disadvantage in those respects. It could work to his advantage the next time. But I don't think they're going to try to make decisions on format based on when it might rain. That's insane.

BUT, he's talking in the hypothetical. Everyone was playing under the same existing rules. What's to say, hypothetically, that if the rules were different, more teams would have put in a stronger effort day1? Maybe he would have ended up 18th either way...

[anthonyvop]

And one market means that it isn't happening anywhere else, right?

Gary
Monday's Miami Herald had a small columm mentioning Foyt IV's Gas Cap incident and that is it. Nothing about Bump Day. Nothing about the suspense.

Now the Miami Herald is the Newspaper of record for a major metropolitan area where the IRL starts it's season and where a large percentage of it's racers call home. Including some of their main stars, Helio, TK, RHR among others.

It is obvious that the 2 weeks of qualifying isn't working.

[garyshell]

Monday's Miami Herald had a small columm mentioning Foyt IV's Gas Cap incident and that is it. Nothing about Bump Day. Nothing about the suspense.

Now the Miami Herald is the Newspaper of record for a major metropolitan area where the IRL starts it's season and where a large percentage of it's racers call home. Including some of their main stars, Helio, TK, RHR among others.

It is obvious that the 2 weeks of qualifying isn't working.


Again this is the same single market you talked about before. I repeat, does one market's result mean it is not working? Also as has been said numerous times in this thread by myself and others, we are now three months into unification, and the "experts" have declared that they "know" the format isn't working. Are you as good at predicting stock futures after it has been on the market for three months?

Gary

[anthonyvop]

Again this is the same single market you talked about before. I repeat, does one market's result mean it is not working? Also as has been said numerous times in this thread by myself and others, we are now three months into unification, and the "experts" have declared that they "know" the format isn't working. Are you as good at predicting stock futures after it has been on the market for three months?

Gary
A quick search of Internet trends shows that the Indy 500 is running about 15% to 20% below last year's searches. Not Good.

Gary,
You like the current format. Fine. But even you would have to admit that the interest and popularity of the Indy 500 is nowhere near what it was 10 years ago.
You say it has only been three months so give it time. I say it has been 3 months and no appreciable gains has been made. How much time should we give it? 3 more months? The year?

[JSH]

How much time should we give it? 3 more months? The year?

At least and then some. You won't change peoples perceptions overnight.

[MAX_THRUST]

Currently the IRL is more STOCK than Stock car racing....When things were different was when the cars were more advanced techincally than NASCAR. THey still are but are exactly the same, so stock!!!

However if the teams and series go back to pushing new technologies then costs will rise as in F1, (not to the same level- clearly).

Right now Stock is good for the IRL, but the month maybe a touch too long. I think the IRL is doing well, I would have thought things would have been better this year, maybe it'll take another 13 years for the series to return to the CART days, but things weren't so great then I guess (according to some), just better than now.

[garyshell]

A quick search of Internet trends shows that the Indy 500 is running about 15% to 20% below last year's searches. Not Good.

Gary,
You like the current format. Fine. But even you would have to admit that the interest and popularity of the Indy 500 is nowhere near what it was 10 years ago.
You say it has only been three months so give it time. I say it has been 3 months and no appreciable gains has been made. How much time should we give it? 3 more months? The year?


Oh please, don't tell me let me guess you think that Internet searches are a significant market indicator. :eek: Sorry, I don't subscribe to that notion at all and I make my business in IT.

I never said I like the current format. Actually I think the 11-11-11 scenario is ridiculous. But I do like the "Month of May" concept. And that info about the Indy 500 being less popular than it was 10 years ago comes as just a total shock to me. My, oh my. Please Anthony say it isn't so. I am just devastated by that news. [shakes head and rolls eyes]

What the ***** did you expect in 3 months, a freakin' miracle? How much time should we give it? At the very least a year. As close to the motorsports inside as you claim to be, I should think you would understand the sponsorship cycle a little bit more. Marketing budgets were already set by most large consumer oriented companies when the merger was announced. So we will see no real marketing benefits until next season. But it is pretty obvious there are several already starting to circle looking to join in. Have you heard about the billboards around Indy for a certain beer company with a Dallara prominently displayed on it?

Look, the damage was done over the past 12+ years, your expectations that a miracle MUST happen overnite (OK 3 months) or we have to blow up the entire concept and start from scratch is ridiculous at best and indicative of your own personal agenda at worst.

Do I like everything about what is going on right now, no. But I am not going to pretend to be such an expert as to call for a revamp of the process at this juncture.

Gary

[anthonyvop]

Oh please, don't tell me let me guess you think that Internet searches are a significant market indicator. :eek: Sorry, I don't subscribe to that notion at all and I make my business in IT.Gary
Then you must not make much money. Internet Searches are a huge indicator. I subscribe to that notion and I make my business in Marketing!


What the hell did you expect in 3 months, a freakin' miracle? Gary
No but at least something. Some movement. So far....NADA!

How much time should we give it? At the very least a year. Gary
Wait a year before any measurable bump? Yikes. Luckily IMS isn't a publically traded company or that stock would crash.


As close to the motorsports inside as you claim to be, I should think you would understand the sponsorship cycle a little bit more. Marketing budgets were already set by most large consumer oriented companies when the merger was announced. So we will see no real marketing benefits until next season. But it is pretty obvious there are several already starting to circle looking to join in. Have you heard about the billboards around Indy for a certain beer company with a Dallara prominently displayed on it? Gary
Ok so it was too late for this year's marketing budget and yet a beer company was able to come up with some sponsor dollars? Make up your mind.
Most major companies hold $$$ in reserve for late oppourtunities. As far as marketers are concerned there was none as the numbers haven't matched the hype.

Look, the damage was done over the past 12+ years, your expectations that a miracle MUST happen overnite (OK 3 months) or we have to blow up the entire concept and start from scratch is ridiculous Gary
Nobody said a Miracle! But something. If anything the doward spiral has continued.

at best and indicative of your own personal agenda at worst.Gary
And what is my agenda? You agenda is to brand anyone who disagrees with you as an IRL hater.

Do I like everything about what is going on right now, hell no. But I am not going to pretend to be such an expert as to call for a revamp of the process at this juncture.
Gary
I am. It is not working. It hasn't worked for years.

[garyshell]

How much time should we give it? At the very least a year.


Wait a year before any measurable bump? Yikes. Luckily IMS isn't a publically traded company or that stock would crash

If it had been a publicly traded company it would have crashed long ago and that is exactly the point. Once it did bottom out, no one would expect it to rise up again in three months.


Have you heard about the billboards around Indy for a certain beer company with a Dallara prominently displayed on it?


Most major companies hold $$$ in reserve for late oppourtunities. As far as marketers are concerned there was none as the numbers haven't matched the hype.

Really? The beer company must have seen something. They spent some of their reserves. But that is peanuts, the REAL story will be this fall when the budgets are doled out. Then we'll see where things stand. Till then it's all speculation.


Look, the damage was done over the past 12+ years, your expectations that a miracle MUST happen overnite (OK 3 months) or we have to blow up the entire concept and start from scratch is ridiculous


Nobody said a Miracle! But something. If anything the doward spiral has continued.

By what measure? The local Miami paper is all you have sighted thus far. How else are you guaging this "doward" spiral?


at best and indicative of your own personal agenda at worst.


And what is my agenda? You agenda is to brand anyone who disagrees with you as an IRL hater.

What is your agenda? Let's see, if I go to your website http://www.sfmreport.com and scroll down to the bottom of the page and in the far left column what do I see as the very last icon link? You tell ME what that means. It sure isn't a link to the I love the ICS website is it? It's the home of the FTG, FKK, FBB, FIRL, F everything that has anything to do with the ICS. That coupled with your messages here speaks volumes. Do you have anything to back up the assertion that I brand anyone who disagrees with me as an IRL hater? No you don't. The only ones I call out on that are the ones who give that appearance.


But I am not going to pretend to be such an expert as to call for a revamp of the process at this juncture.


I am. It is not working. It hasn't worked for years.

Yes, I noticed and I am not talking about the "not working part".

Gary

[JSH]

Only way you boys are gonna sort this out is with pistols at 20 paces....

[garyshell]

Only way you boys are gonna sort this out is with pistols at 20 paces....


Nah, I'm done. There is no point trying to argue this any further. Despite the protestations to the contrary, anthonyvpop obviously still can't get over the fact that ChampCar is gone. Some of us have moved on, some of us can't.

Gary

[indycool]

anthonyvop, what did you expect to happen over three months? The cow to jump over the moon? With "blendification," several things in the marketing area have ALREADY happened, namely Firestone sponsorship of the Indy Lights series, Coke and Peak and several others jumping on board, Firestone putting up $50,000 to the last qualifier for the "500", Red Gold putting up $10,000 to the driver with the fastest qualifying lap at Indy on the last day, full fields of cars for the races, etc.

Because my subscription was canceled, I can't read it at AR1 but I understand there's a statement there that ex-CC people are poo-pooing ethanol, which has become a fuel and car sponsor in the IRL. I haven't read ANYWHERE else where ANYONE has poo-pooed ethanol as a fuel in the garage area and no names have been mentioned ANYWHERE, so that's, IMO, just black helicopter nonsense.

If you're going to put the IRL in a fishbowl, go ahead and do it. But in three months, Dallara, Honda, Firestone, the IRL and even teams have pitched in to make blendification work, get some equipment into the hands of the CC teams to get them going, sponsors signed, new website features unveiled and races run and that required all of racing's big kids pulling together to make it happen.

So everything wasn't (and quite probably couldn't) have been changed at once. Perhaps (and more than likely) the CW jihad will not be the guiding light behind the series and its ideologies will NOT be adopted. So, I'm afraid you can just beller and tap your foot because I don't think you'll like ANYTHING that is done, and like other CW mainstays, be like the Japanese soldiers found wandering around small islands in the Pacific in the '50s, rifles still in hand, because no one told them the war was over.

....be like the Japanese soldiers found wandering around small islands in the Pacific in the '50s, rifles still in hand, because no one told them the war was over.

His name, I believe, was Sanguin San.

[downtowndeco]

His name, I believe, was Sanguin San.

I think some are still upset because not only did CC fail once but it went BK TWO times. You can't get a much more solid proof than that that CC wasn't all it was cracked up to be. TG (supossedly an idiot) was the last one left standing, almost all of the CC teams left CC for the IRL, the IRL now has LB on it's schedule & this year there was honest to god bumping and excitement on bump day.

Yeah, it's gotta hurt to be a dead ender. I understand why they are lashing out. Me? I'm enjoying every moment of the racing this year with a smile on my face.

[BenRoethig]

I think some are still upset because not only did CC fail once but it went BK TWO times. You can't get a much more solid proof than that that CC wasn't all it was cracked up to be. TG (supossedly an idiot) was the last one left standing, almost all of the CC teams left CC for the IRL, the IRL now has LB on it's schedule & this year there was honest to god bumping and excitement on bump day.

Yeah, it's gotta hurt to be a dead ender. I understand why they are lashing out. Me? I'm enjoying every moment of the racing this year with a smile on my face.

Simple Tony George, like him or hate him has the one card that actually matters. Some of us accept this and move forward with what we have.

[BenRoethig]

A quick search of Internet trends shows that the Indy 500 is running about 15% to 20% below last year's searches. Not Good.

TV rating were up 25% for 3rd round qualifying and 50% for bump day.

[Alfa Fan]

TV rating were up 25% for 3rd round qualifying and 50% for bump day.

And maybe last year everyone was searching for IndyCar come the 500, this year they already know what it is?

[ZzZzZz]

A quick search of Internet trends shows that the Indy 500 is running about 15% to 20% below last year's searches. Not Good.

Is that first weekend rainout numbers? I see Ben posted the weekend 2 TV increases. As I said, it's this year's race that should mark the beginning of the growth trend, and really next year's numbers... Momentum is something you have to build. You don't judge Indy Car racing by the speed they are going 2 seconds from a dead stop.

(IC - the ethanol article was fairly positive.)

[garyshell]

I think some are still upset because not only did CC fail once but it went BK TWO times. You can't get a much more solid proof than that that CC wasn't all it was cracked up to be. TG (supossedly an idiot) was the last one left standing, almost all of the CC teams left CC for the IRL, the IRL now has LB on it's schedule & this year there was honest to god bumping and excitement on bump day.

Yeah, it's gotta hurt to be a dead ender. I understand why they are lashing out. Me? I'm enjoying every moment of the racing this year with a smile on my face.


Just as we don't need the CCF crowd continuing to spout their venom against the ICS, we really don't need a lot of gloating at the outcome either. The only reason the idiot grandson, was left standing is he held the keys to 16th and Georgetown. (After all who else BUT an idiot would divide things to the point that the TV ratings fell through the floor and tickets went unsold etc. etc.)

Like I said to Anthony some of us have moved on, I can see some of the folks on both sides still can't. Sadly.

Gary

[downtowndeco]

Just as we don't need the CCF crowd continuing to spout their venom against the ICS, we really don't need a lot of gloating at the outcome either. The only reason the idiot grandson, was left standing is he held the keys to 16th and Georgetown. (After all who else BUT an idiot would divide things to the point that the TV ratings fell through the floor and tickets went unsold etc. etc.)

Like I said to Anthony some of us have moved on, I can see some of the folks on both sides still can't. Sadly.

Gary

You respond to guys like him the way you want to, I will the way I want to. It makes the forum interesting.

[CCWS77]

Look love it, hate it, say whatever you want about it.... I'm fascinated by the denial some people love to stay in about where the IRL is, with stuff like this.


tamburello
The new series only started in March......
Next year, maybe we could expect more coverage.
garyshell (http://www.motorsportforums.com/forums/member.php?u=84090)

Let's see the unification has been in place for just short of three months and the "experts" are already sure that the format is not working. This is the first Indy 500 since the unification. What are you expecting in the first year, a freakin' miracle?


Arent you guys paying attention? The IRL is not 3 months old. It is 10 years old. It hasn't changed from 2007 to 2008. It isnt changing from 2008 to 2009. It is what it is. The more you HOPE for change that is not happening the more you are admitting the IRL and the 500 are not doing well at all and the death of CCWS has had no effect on that.

[garyshell]

Look love it, hate it, say whatever you want about it.... I'm fascinated by the denial some people love to stay in about where the IRL is, with stuff like this.



Arent you guys paying attention? The IRL is not 3 months old. It is 10 years old. It hasn't changed from 2007 to 2008. It isnt changing from 2008 to 2009. It is what it is. The more you HOPE for change that is not happening the more you are admitting the IRL and the 500 are not doing well at all and the death of CCWS has had no effect on that.


You did notice that there was unification that occurred three months ago right? With that in place there is now a chance that Madison Ave. will return to the fold and there actually might be some sponsor money floating around this time next year. Unfortunately it took the death of CCWS to make this happen. Madison Ave. had just about zero interest in a split in open wheel racing. Like it or not it is after all the sponsor money that will drive all changes. With their money comes advertising which hopefully will translate into more butts in seats and higher viewership on TV.

Gary

[MAX_THRUST]

Gary, the only one here seems not to be able to get over the split is you!!!!!

Can't you drop it now. It's an old record your playing, if you still want a war take it out on NASCAR.

[downtowndeco]

Just as we don't need the CCF crowd continuing to spout their venom against the ICS, we really don't need a lot of gloating at the outcome either. The only reason the idiot grandson, was left standing is he held the keys to 16th and Georgetown. (After all who else BUT an idiot would divide things to the point that the TV ratings fell through the floor and tickets went unsold etc. etc.)

Like I said to Anthony some of us have moved on, I can see some of the folks on both sides still can't. Sadly.

Gary

"Gloating"? Just trying to to put things in context. Maybe when people stop complaining that everything isn't perfect after just three months, maybe after people stop calling TG the "idiot grandson" & accept that there were more reasons for the IRL surviving than "TG held the keys to Indy" & more reasons to CC demise than "TG ruined everything" then I'll stop having to post about it.

[mike15]

All Indy needs is 10 days.
You give Open Wheel fans an oportunity to take a 10 day vacation that would include pole day to race day you would find a renewed interest from the media and OW fans.

Gone are the days of the barn yard mechanic that made the I500 the only race of the year.

[Vegasguy]

"Gloating"? Just trying to to put things in context. Maybe when people stop complaining that everything isn't perfect after just three months, maybe after people stop calling TG the "idiot grandson" & accept that there were more reasons for the IRL surviving than "TG held the keys to Indy" & more reasons to CC demise than "TG ruined everything" then I'll stop having to post about it.

Hate to say this as I have "moved on", but the fact that TG could negotiate better TV contracts and has a huge bankroll behind him was all about having the keys to Indy.

Did Cart and Champ car make huge mistakes? No DUH! and that only helped the IRL out survive the Champ car. It's not like the IRL was growing.
Now the first news regarding TV ratings after the unification shows a huge increase, proving what most of us new the whole time. Theres not room for 2 OW series in the US.

That said, I agree. It's time to shorten the teams commitment for the month of may. Shorten the whole thing by a week would be my plan. I would drop the middle week after rookie orientation. Practice, then Pole day with Bump day the next day. In the event of rain on the weekend you have 4 more days to get it done prior to carb day.

JMHO

[downtowndeco]

IMO you're talking out of both sides of your mouth. On one hand, you're saying the only reason the IRL outlasted CC was that TG had Indy & the money he generated by the event. On the other hand, you're saying Indy isn't that important and they should cut the event down by at least a week. The event is the reason the INDY Racing League exists, and that's the way it should be. Cheers.


Hate to say this as I have "moved on", but the fact that TG could negotiate better TV contracts and has a huge bankroll behind him was all about having the keys to Indy.

Did Cart and Champ car make huge mistakes? No DUH! and that only helped the IRL out survive the Champ car. It's not like the IRL was growing.
Now the first news regarding TV ratings after the unification shows a huge increase, proving what most of us new the whole time. Theres not room for 2 OW series in the US.

That said, I agree. It's time to shorten the teams commitment for the month of may. Shorten the whole thing by a week would be my plan. I would drop the middle week after rookie orientation. Practice, then Pole day with Bump day the next day. In the event of rain on the weekend you have 4 more days to get it done prior to carb day.

JMHO

[mike15]

This topic proves that there is still an American Open Wheel Split.
Those that love American Open Wheel Racing and those that love the I500.

[downtowndeco]

This topic proves that there is still an American Open Wheel Split.
Those that love American Open Wheel Racing and those that love the I500.

AOWR IS the Indy 500. If you're more into street circuits or road courses there are have a dozen or more Eurocentric Series that should fit that bill.

Last post for me on this thread.

[Vegasguy]

IMO you're talking out of both sides of your mouth. On one hand, you're saying the only reason the IRL outlasted CC was that TG had Indy & the money he generated by the event. On the other hand, you're saying Indy isn't that important and they should cut the event down by at least a week.

You really think much money is generated that week? I saw little crowd activity on those days. The revenue is generated from Race Day, the City cashes in on Race Day, the scalpers cash in on Race Day. The rest of the month is simply expenses for the teams. Hotels, food, travel, fuel, rental cars etc.... I have traveled as part of a race team on numerous occasions and it is not cheap.



The event is the reason the INDY Racing League exists, and that's the way it should be. Cheers.

So you agree with me then, because you just proved my point here..... Thank you.

[indycool]

Without Indy, there would have been no USAC. Without Indy, there would have been no CART. Without Indy, there would have been no IRL. The more you try to diminish the Indianapolis 500, the more you try to diminish open wheel racing.

It is NOT still a split, IMO, between those who enjoy the "500" and those who enjoy other open-wheel races. It is a split between those who recognize the magnitude of the "500" and its importance and those who do not.

[indycool]

Starter, I have made that same point (adding supermodifieds) many times on these boards in response to the CART/CC jihad that coined the term "AOWR" for its preference of series. Obviously, I agree with you. But those who believe minimizing the Indianapolis 500 is going to build up other ICS races are about two bubbles off plumb, IMO.

[Vegasguy]

BTW, at no time did I diminish the importance of Indy, I just think its a HUGE expense for the teams and could be shortened without impacting it in a negative way.

Obviously its huge, its the largest single day sporting event in the world.

The Brickyard 400 is number 2.... and it's 3 days.

[indycool]

Vegasguy, guess you had to live in Indy during the couple years they tried a two-week format back in the '90s. Nevermind the politics that got the idea on the board, but it SEVERELY diminished the magnitude of the race just in the eyes of people locally, for starters. People were wandering around Indy trying to say "month of May," for example, when it was no longer close to the month of May. It was bewildering, it was here and gone quickly and it was not the spectacle that got it to its previous status.

On another point, a good many teams are based in Indy, as a good many NASCAR teams are based in Charlotte. Indy is more of a "home game" than a "road trip" than any other race on the schedule in that vein.

[indycool]

Yes, things change. And maybe it's just my opinion. But when Leo Mehl left the IRL, so did the two-week program. Again, nobody, not a single person IN INDY who I talked to liked it. Or warmed to it. Or made money off it. Or enjoyed it at all. Even people I know at the track. It was already an option, it was tried briefly and it was unsuccessful. Maybe it'll be thought of again, maybe not. They might consider riding mechanics again. Who knows? But considering its failure, a two-week program would be a tall order to sell around these parts right now.

[Vegasguy]

Indycool, I could see how the people of Indianapolis would be impacted as you said.... but the rest of the worlds fans would get over it pretty quick IMHO and the teams would save a ton. They have said so themselves in the past.

Now riding mechanics using the 2 person tubs hauling tools and parts..... pretty cool. ;-)

I think that a lot of good things have happened since unification, I think a lot of great things are coming down the pipeline. I hope they really do combine the best aspects of the 2 series and bring over more of the Loyal Champ car fans, it can only improve the series.
IMHO it would be almost criminal if they just left it as is because lets face it... it's not the product it could be or most want it to be.

I plan on giving it 3 yrs.

[CCWS77]

On a philosophical level, "the split" was never about a guy named Tony George or some organizations named IRL and CART. It was about if the city of Indianapolis and the Indy 500 was going to be the "racing capital", or if it was going to be a part of a larger series just like all the other races. Tony George said as much. That is obvioulsy what they are selling when thier slogan is "I am Indy" and it says "racing capital" on huge signs in Indy.

So after a decade of fighting about it Tony is in control but is the matter really settled? It is easy to say "the split" was the cause of the downward spiral of the sport but it remains to be seen if this status quo is actually healthy. There are plenty of reasons why putting one venue on a pedestal is bad for the sport. We have the city and those who live in the region using a prestigous one day race as a means to generate an economic boost for a whole month - at the expense of the teams and the rest of the sport.


AOWR IS the Indy 500. If you're more into street circuits or road courses there are have a dozen or more Eurocentric Series that should fit that bill. This is the essence of the split. Worship Indy or be gone you are banished to Europe or something. It isnt over at all! What's more is it was created in Indianaoplis and it is so disingenuous to act like it was fans of rival, now vanquished series that caused it. Saying our race is the best, this is the racing capital, the whole schedule should bend to our will, all other tracks and cities should declare "We are Indy", the championship winner barely matters next to this race winner....it is just astounding arrogance and IMHO a house of cards that, now that the scapegoat of CCWS is out of the picture, will come tumbling down eventually of its own accord.

[anthonyvop]

Without Indy, there would have been no USAC. Without Indy, there would have been no CART. Without Indy, there would have been no IRL. The more you try to diminish the Indianapolis 500, the more you try to diminish open wheel racing..

Nope. Somebody else would have stepped forward and started a major formula series.
That is like saying without Apple there never would have been personal computers.


It is NOT still a split, IMO, between those who enjoy the "500" and those who enjoy other open-wheel races. It is a split between those who recognize the magnitude of the "500" and its importance and those who do not.
Or mayby it is between those who realize that times and tastes change and those who refuse to give up the past.

Nope. Somebody else would have stepped forward and started a major formula series.

They did. It was called the ChampCar World Series. Surely you remember? And you remember what happened to it?

[BenRoethig]

Nope. Somebody else would have stepped forward and started a major formula series.
That is like saying without Apple there never would have been personal computers.


Or mayby it is between those who realize that times and tastes change and those who refuse to give up the past.

Tastes haven't changed. They tried something different and its diminished everything to a point where Indy and its revenue is the only thing keeping everything else afloat. There is not enough interest in a major formula series to make it work, that's just the way it is. The only tastes that have changed are the people who left open wheel for NASCAR.

[MAX_THRUST]

As I said earlier the IRL is almost more stock than NASCAR is. Perhaps thats the way to get people interested again, is to be anything other than stock, lets see if the rules can be changed to allow more than one chasis in to all races next year.

And if Reynard built a new Indy Car chasis to the Indy Car rules TG should let them race......I know Reynard are gone.

[BenRoethig]

Its stock by default, not choice. Ford, GM, Toyota, and Nissan unfortunately didn't see a point in continuing their open wheel programs and the grids dwindled to a point where having a second chassis in either series wasn't worth the cost of development. We'll see what happens in 2010.

[mike15]

This split between American Open Wheel Fans and I500 fans is not allowed to be discussed on the speed forum.

With the economy the way it is today condensing the schedule to 10 days would have benefits for everyone.

I strongly believe more fans would take their vacations during that time just like the fans of the Daytona 500.

Indianapolis would be host to a larger crowd and more than likely be more profitable.

AOWR would benefit because they could have two more races in May leading up to Indy week.

Today's teams do not need the month of May to prepare for the I500. One reason is weather conditions will change so that the practiced car set up will not be the same as the race day set up. If this years race day is hot and sunny that will be the opposite of most all the days in May leading up to the race.

[indycool]

I see the shopworn line flown by CART folks for two decades about the cost of going to Indy. It's a whine. As I pointed out before, it's a home game for MANY teams based in Indianapolis with no travel expenses. Track time is their choice.

And they're competing for a $13 million purse. I suppose you could chop it to two weeks and cut the purse in half and eliminate all the ancillary events surrounding a three-week format. But how would that help Indy OR the series? Again, it diminishes the magnitude of the race...to folks in Indy and folks elsewhere.....two weeks of pub instead of three, two weeks of activity instead of three. It didn't work when it was tried. IMO, it was a disaster.

You don't build something up by tearing something else down. CART thought it could. It was wrong. CC thought it could. It was wrong. Why would we need to be doing this three times? Haven't we learned ANYTHING?

[champcarray]

I agree that the venue and the series need to be built up at Indy, but not just the I500. IMHO, taking three weeks to qualify for and run one race is an embarrassment and makes for a lot of wasted time (from the fan's point of view). Can you imagine a two-and-a-half-week long festival of open-wheel speed instead? Have the whole ladder represented, from karts up to Indy cars. Race on the both the road track (Star Mazda and Atlantics) and the oval (IPS and Indy cars). Hold bump day on the day before the big event. Now that would be great!

[indycool]

Maybe some don't understand the extent of things that happen during those three weeks. It starts off with a mini-marathon, one of the nation's largest, with 30,000 runners run by the "500" Festival. There are contests, activities, appearances throughout the month. Races? The Speedway added the Freedom 100 for Indy Lights cars, a previously unheard of second race at the Speedway during May. USAC and others hold racing programs for short track cars at IRP and the Indiana State Fairgrounds. There is the Lirttle 500 sprint car race at Anderson. There is a Community Day for autograph signing and children's activities. A major charity golf tournament is held on the Brickyard Crossing course during race week. Sponsors use that three-week period to entertain customers and employees in suites and motorhomes throughout the month and build significant promotions around it.

And for those who are coming at this from a CC perspective, most of what I've read from those teams was that they could get up to speed much easier during May with the increase in track time. I haven't read one complaint from teams about it now. The war is over for them.

[CARTDM15]

I for one think the month at Indy is a little to long.It may be great for those that live their but I don't see the benfit for race fans across the world.I want to see a race.Oval qualifying will never keep me entertain.I don't know the ends and outs, like a lot of posters, of the team finances involved during the month of May.I just like to see another race in May before the 500.
There will always be a "split" among race fans about the 500 and the rest of series.All I know that in NASCAR every race is a big deal.There is pre-race shows and post race shows for every event.That's want I want for Indycar so badly.Lets not put all our eggs in the 500 basket.Build the series and the 500 will grow stronger.DOes the average fan know the next race after the 500? I haven't heard it mention on air.
It upset me when Danica said after droping out of the Kansas race that the 500 was all that really mattered.She is the face for the series and she doesn't care why should the average fan?
As far as the "buzz" for the "merger" everybody on air is talking about..I know where I live nothing has change.Its awful coverage like always.I hope it is difference else where

[garyshell]

You don't build something up by tearing something else down. CART thought it could. It was wrong. CC thought it could. It was wrong. Why would we need to be doing this three times? Haven't we learned ANYTHING?

Just to bring that full circle, the IRL also thought it could and it was wrong as well. Thankfully, they and everyone else involved finally realized that the only way forward was a united series. Viva le' unification.

Gary

[indycool]

Agreed, Gary.

[Mark in Oshawa]

I think those who defend the 3 plus weeks of activity at the Speedway are usually closer to Indy in their living accomodation than those farther away. I am sure it is a big deal if you can go to see practice and the qualifying but really, give this deal maybe 2 weeks.

Daytona gets by on 2 weeks. Charlotte has their 2 weeks for the All Star and 600. No f1 event needs more than 4 days. Indy is special, but it isn't that radically different to adjust to, especially with a spec car now being run.

Years ago, I used to hear every day the practice speeds at Indy leading up to qualfying in the news. That was up HERE in Canada. Those days are now long gone, and I think the idea of the month of May's traditions mean a lot less in the aftermath of the last decade and change of TG's somewhat arbitrary handling of those traditions. Factor in the money he changes for hospitality and the rest, and it is clear he is making more by drawing this out than he is paying out in the very nice purse that he hands out to the 33 who make the field.

The sport has to realize it is now in competion for attention and fans with F1, NASCAR and all the other distractions. Once upon a time, they were the big fish in a medium sized pond. Now they are no longer the biggest fish in the pond and the pond is now a lake. It is time to reexamine the effect of taking the series and shutting it down for a month. Two weeks would be ample. Have them arrive on a Monday after the previous race, test for 4 days, having qualification for pole Saturday and Sunday. Give 2 days of practice and tuning and then the followling Sunday give us the greatest spectacle in racing. The condensed format likely would NOT cut into the attention of the fans, and Tony would be getting fans almost every day for those two weeks. He would not lose much if anything in gate. It is no longer 1940 and you cannot pretend you are the only racing series in the world. NASCAR has run 3 races in the time the teams have been at Indy and this is something that people at the Speedway should be paying attention to. Their competition never stops....always with product for the fan. Sorry, but watching single car practice runs isn't good TV and while I enjoy Bump Day, many couldn't be bothered either. Keep the uniqueness of the qualifying format, but don't waste everyone's time with a month of it.

[Mad_Hatter]

Regardless of how anyone feels, apparently momentum is ok.

http://www.indycar.com/news/?story_id=11431

[Bob Riebe]

Daytona gets by on 2 weeks. Charlotte has their 2 weeks for the All Star and 600. No f1 event needs more than 4 days. Indy is special, but it isn't that radically different to adjust to, especially with a spec car now being run.


Daytona is a shadow of what it once was.
The auto rags used to be full of articles covering Daytona Speed Weeks, which in a disjointed manner included everything from the bike race, 24 hrs., modifieds on the road course, to the Daytona 500; with others inbetween.
The early part of each year was full of activities at Daytona.

THAT is how it got its reputation.
Bob

[Hoop-98]

Paul Newman, co-owner of Newman/Haas/Lanigan Racing: “It (reunification) was absolutely necessary for both groups. It’s tragic that it didn’t happen sooner but it’s good that it at least happened when it did. I think its going to be a great boost for both groups.

“It’s good to be back at Indianapolis. It brings back a lot of fond memories. We’ve won eight championships and come in second twice at Indianapolis but never won The 500. It’s wonderful to be running against Roger (Penske) and (Bobby) Rahal, and Michael (Andretti) and all those guys. It’s comfortable.

“My favorite tradition was that it took a whole month. Indy started at the first of May and you had your reservation at the (speedway) motel. If you wanted it (the room) for two days, you took it for the whole month or you wouldn’t get it and we’re going to work hard to get it back to that.”


rh

[CCWS77]

Maybe some don't understand the extent of things that happen during those three weeks. It starts off with a mini-marathon, one of the nation's largest, with 30,000 runners run by the "500" Festival. There are contests, activities, appearances throughout the month. Races? The Speedway added the Freedom 100 for Indy Lights cars, a previously unheard of second race at the Speedway during May. USAC and others hold racing programs for short track cars at IRP and the Indiana State Fairgrounds. There is the Lirttle 500 sprint car race at Anderson. There is a Community Day for autograph signing and children's activities. A major charity golf tournament is held on the Brickyard Crossing course during race week. Sponsors use that three-week period to entertain customers and employees in suites and motorhomes throughout the month and build significant promotions around it.

What better example of the whole cause of the split then this? What does taking a month to practice, qualify and run a race have to do with any of that? Cars need to be on track in Indy in order to hold a golf tournament or events at state fairgounds? Can't you see your very attitute is that of one who essentially wants to hold the racing series and its famous race hostage in order to bolster happenings around the city of Indianapolis. You sound like Tony George circa 1995. The "tradition" of Indy is like a crucible that grinds up the rest of the sport in order to bolster itself. Does the 24 hours of Lemans or the Daytona 500 or Monaco minimize and denigrate the rest of the series it is joined to or the rest of motorsports like Indy does? Not at all. Neither the split nor now the end of the split has solved this problem.


And for those who are coming at this from a CC perspective, most of what I've read from those teams was that they could get up to speed much easier during May with the increase in track time. I haven't read one complaint from teams about it now. The war is over for them.Yes, because they are using the month of May as testing time. What has that got to do with the one race? They could have tested for a month at Homestead instead to figure out the car. There is nothing magic about the asphault in Indy. it is the same as everywhere else, unless you are wearing rose colored glasses. Pick any random track out of a hat and make it a 1 month long event. After 5 years that will be a tradition too! If this format is actually so great then maybe the whole series should run this way and the IRL will only have about 5 races a year. :rolleyes:


Hoop-98
"My favorite tradition was"Everybody loves Newman, but again his favorite "tradition". I dont see any analysis of how that is good for the sport in the future. If the IRL actually wants to be attractive to people under 30 for the future then every event needs to be decided in a timeframre in which a vistor can see the whole thing - a 4 day weekend. We are in the age of WEB2.0 and you want to drag out a single auto race for a month and expect people to follow it? That is an insane buisness plan for the future - no matter what has happened in the past.

[!!WALDO!!]

What better example of the whole cause of the split then this? What does taking a month to practice, qualify and run a race have to do with any of that? Cars need to be on track in Indy in order to hold a golf tournament or events at state fairgounds? Can't you see your very attitute is that of one who essentially wants to hold the racing series and its famous race hostage in order to bolster happenings around the city of Indianapolis. You sound like Tony George circa 1995. The "tradition" of Indy is like a crucible that grinds up the rest of the sport in order to bolster itself. Does the 24 hours of Lemans or the Daytona 500 or Monaco minimize and denigrate the rest of the series it is joined to or the rest of motorsports like Indy does? Not at all. Neither the split nor now the end of the split has solved this problem.

Yes, because they are using the month of May as testing time. What has that got to do with the one race? They could have tested for a month at Homestead instead to figure out the car. There is nothing magic about the asphault in Indy. it is the same as everywhere else, unless you are wearing rose colored glasses. Pick any random track out of a hat and make it a 1 month long event. After 5 years that will be a tradition too! If this format is actually so great then maybe the whole series should run this way and the IRL will only have about 5 races a year. :rolleyes:

Everybody loves Newman, but again his favorite "tradition". I dont see any analysis of how that is good for the sport in the future. If the IRL actually wants to be attractive to people under 30 for the future then every event needs to be decided in a timeframre in which a vistor can see the whole thing - a 4 day weekend. We are in the age of WEB2.0 and you want to drag out a single auto race for a month and expect people to follow it? That is an insane buisness plan for the future - no matter what has happened in the past.

It is worth $100s of Millions to the State of Indiana. Replace it.

[anthonyvop]

They did. It was called the ChampCar World Series. Surely you remember? And you remember what happened to it?
Did you even read my post?

I was answering a post that said without Indy there would be no major open wheel series in the US.
I countered by stating that somebody would have started a series.

BTW CART was the established series. It was the IRL that was the upstart.

[BenRoethig]

They did. It failed, twice and the first time it was an overall better product outside the month of may. You can try whatever you want, but if the fans don't pay attention, neither will the sponsors and you're going to have a lot of trouble bankrolling the operation.

[garyshell]

They did. It was called the ChampCar World Series. Surely you remember? And you remember what happened to it?


Did you even read my post?

I was answering a post that said without Indy there would be no major open wheel series in the US.
I countered by stating that somebody would have started a series.

BTW CART was the established series. It was the IRL that was the upstart.


Which begs the question, did you read HIS post? He said it was called the ChampCar World series. Lest you forget, they were the ones who bought the CART assets to form a new series.

Gary

[CARTDM15]

They did. It failed, twice and the first time it was an overall better product outside the month of may. You can try whatever you want, but if the fans don't pay attention, neither will the sponsors and you're going to have a lot of trouble bankrolling the operation.
it wasn't sponsors are fans that bankrolled the IRL it was Tony George.Another split can happen as long as some super rich guy is ready to lose money to prove a point.

[MAX_THRUST]

Good to see MARk from OSHAWA on the forum. I always agree with you, valid points as ever. Haven't seen you on here for a while. Hope your well?

As you can see people here are still going on about the split 3 months after it ended. Its history, what is important now is how things move on. More publicity for the 500 will bring more publicity to the IRL as a series. It'll take time to get back to pre split days and for the European market to take note they need to sort out coverage here too....

Please can we drop the Split stuff now. TG broke away, TG won the war. Theguys an idiot, but he got it right this year at last. Lets all learn from this and if any rich guys come along with a new series, tell em to shove it.

[CARTDM15]

Good to see MARk from OSHAWA on the forum. I always agree with you, valid points as ever. Haven't seen you on here for a while. Hope your well?

As you can see people here are still going on about the split 3 months after it ended. Its history, what is important now is how things move on. More publicity for the 500 will bring more publicity to the IRL as a series. It'll take time to get back to pre split days and for the European market to take note they need to sort out coverage here too....

Please can we drop the Split stuff now. TG broke away, TG won the war. Theguys an idiot, but he got it right this year at last. Lets all learn from this and if any rich guys come along with a new series, tell em to shove it.
The split is the biggest part of open wheels history and it will alway be a hot topic.Just like AJ Foyt, Andretti & Unser its part of the history of the sport.

[MAX_THRUST]

I agree the split is a huge part of our history, but some keep going over it, when we all disagree who's at fault, and this thread is more about momentum and possible, changes in this modern era of the sport, to keep the sport in the lime light all season and not for just one race.

Here's my two pence/cent's worth : It's all TG's fault. Always will be, but as much as think he is at fault, he has made some really good moves recently and I hope the IRL goes from strength to strength. But I really miss CART/CCWS.

I hope this weekends race is great, I hope all the teams and drivers are safe, I hope the fans pack the grandstands and have a great day.

I JUST WISH I COULD SEE IT SUNDAY!!!!!!

EVERYONE ENJOY THE RACE THIS WEEKEND>

[!!WALDO!!]

TG broke away, TG won the war. Theguys an idiot, but he got it right this year at last. Lets all learn from this and if any rich guys come along with a new series, tell em to shove it.

Let us see the history: The United States Auto Club sanctioned the Indianapolis 500 in 1995. The United States Auto Club sanctioned the Indianapolis 500 in 1996. Where is the break away?

The rules for the chassis and engines were the same in 1995 and 1996. Where is the break away?

Yes, 25/8 was brought in July of 1995, after the April 3rd, 1995 meeting at the O'Hare Hyatt Regency Hotel in Rosemont, IL, in which CART voted to change their rules of the chassis thus locking themselves out of the 1996 500. There is the break away.

Not Tony. 25 car owners that thought they were bigger than the sport.

[garyshell]

Let us see the history: The United States Auto Club sanctioned the Indianapolis 500 in 1995. The United States Auto Club sanctioned the Indianapolis 500 in 1996. Where is the break away?

If you limit the context only to Indy, then of course that is correct. But who sanctioned the rest of the races those folks ran in 1995? It wasn't USAC it was CART. In that wider context, it was indeed Tony who broke away.

Gary

[!!WALDO!!]

If you limit the context only to Indy, then of course that is correct. But who sanctioned the rest of the races those folks ran in 1995? It wasn't USAC it was CART. In that wider context, it was indeed Tony who broke away.

Gary

Nope, because the IRL had two races with no conflict. If CART drivers and teams had showed up then they would have earned 22 spots of the 25 and the IRL would have died a quick death.

See changing the rules, rules in January of 1995, they voted down and then after racing and losing Phoenix they voted that rules package in.

See in 1995 both USAC and CART were working together on a rules package that would run from 1996-2000. The new car would be wider cockpits, driver moved back and higher side pods. A brand new car. CART voted to keep the rules of 1990-1995 in place as it was a hardship on some CART teams. USAC had to follow the lead of CART and who did USAC represent? IMS and the upstart IRL. So in January USAC/IRL wrote their rulebook and three months later CART changed their vote causing two different formulas to exist.

So how did Tony do anything? Want to blame someone, blame Buddy Jobe as if he had not been tossed out of his own box at Phoenix and threaten with arrest by CART officials then maybe he wouldn't have dumped CART in favor of the IRL. Then 3 days later CART wouldn't have changed their rules and certain other things would not have occurred and the two could have raced together at least in 1996.

(NO REFERENCE, IMPLIED OR REAL TO ANY POSTER, LIVING, DEAD, or NOT YET BORN.)

[Bob Riebe]

If you limit the context only to Indy, then of course that is correct. But who sanctioned the rest of the races those folks ran in 1995? It wasn't USAC it was CART. In that wider context, it was indeed Tony who broke away.

Gary
CART was only at Indy because they sued in court to be allowed to be at Indy or CART would have died a long time ago.

[!!WALDO!!]

CART was only at Indy because they sued in court to be allowed to be at Indy or CART would have died a long time ago.

Interesting. Maybe sometime I will be able to tell the true story about that.

CART did not enter the car of 6 teams properly and USAC dissallowed the entries. A Judge ruled that CART did violate the rules but not the Spirit of the rules.

JRs book is confused as the only lawsuit for a restain of trade was Danny Ongais/Ted Field suit against CART for running Pocono that year, a USAC race.

(NO REFERENCE, IMPLIED OR REAL TO ANY POSTER, LIVING, DEAD, or NOT YET BORN.)

[dataman1]

Based upon my interpretation of the dialog in the preceeding 7 pages of this topic. The split is alive and well to these writers on both sides of the argument.

History is the past. There is a line in the "Optimist International's Creed" that states: "Forget the mistakes of the past and press on to the greater achievement of the future."

It's Friday in USA before a holiday meant to remember those who fought and lost their lives to give us rights like the one we use here as we write what we want to say. Let's spend some time to remember those men and women and put our differences aside for the weekend.

[Nethead]

CART was only at Indy because they sued in court to be allowed to be at Indy or CART would have died a long time ago.

Bob Riebe: It's been two years, and the open-wheeled-racing arguments rage on!

The Nethead here will try to get up to speed on US open-wheeled racing that I haven't really followed after USAC restricted Andy Granatelli's 1967 STP turboshaft racecar into non-competitiveness--and then followed that insult up with injury by banning AWD after Colin Chapman's ill-fated turboshaft Lotuses (Surely the plural isn't "Loti"?) nearly won the 1968 Indy 500 despite their restricted intakes. What BS I've seen at Indy...

At least I hear that CART and the IRL have re-unified, if only so that they could get within knife and straight razor range of eacn other...

So, Bob, please sum up the current status of US open-wheeled racing in three sentences so I can play it by ear in this topic--stuff I make up is always better than stuff that has even an iota of truth in it anyway! What sorta fuel(s) do they use now? What sorta displacement regs/boost regs/etc. regs are they using now?

I sent you a PM via www.motorsportforums.com (http://www.motorsportforums.com), too. I may not be able to respond before Tuesday since I leave on a three-day in 24 minutes...

The Nethead here, survivor of the old AutoWeek forums :eek:

[garyshell]

Nope, because the IRL had two races with no conflict. If CART drivers and teams had showed up then they would have earned 22 spots of the 25 and the IRL would have died a quick death.

See changing the rules, rules in January of 1995, they voted down and then after racing and losing Phoenix they voted that rules package in.

See in 1995 both USAC and CART were working together on a rules package that would run from 1996-2000. The new car would be wider cockpits, driver moved back and higher side pods. A brand new car. CART voted to keep the rules of 1990-1995 in place as it was a hardship on some CART teams. USAC had to follow the lead of CART and who did USAC represent? IMS and the upstart IRL. So in January USAC/IRL wrote their rulebook and three months later CART changed their vote causing two different formulas to exist.

So how did Tony do anything? Want to blame someone, blame Buddy Jobe as if he had not been tossed out of his own box at Phoenix and threaten with arrest by CART officials then maybe he wouldn't have dumped CART in favor of the IRL. Then 3 days later CART wouldn't have changed their rules and certain other things would not have occurred and the two could have raced together at least in 1996.

(NO REFERENCE, IMPLIED OR REAL TO ANY POSTER, LIVING, DEAD, or NOT YET BORN.)


Again, I have no aregument with those facts. But still think that, as you put it, the "upstart IRL" can be considered by some as the break away. All I said in this conversation was that until the formation of the IRL, USAC santioned INDY and CART santioned the rest. By forming the IRL, Tony chose to break away from that paradgim, knowing that teams would have to decide between CART and the IRL on the rest of the races besides those two that didn't conflict. I wasn't attempting to place blame or anything else, just clarifying the notion of why many folks thougt of IRL as the break away.

Gary

[dataman1]

I also do not dispute any facts stated by Waldo above however he writes from the IMS/IRL/Indy viewpoint. During that time frame the USAC sanctioned only one race, Indy. CART santioned all the others. CART owned all the cars and the teams except for a few Indy based small operations known for running at Indy only. CART was becoming quite successful and was under pressure to start new venues in US and Canada. Phoenix could be replaced with a new venue. Keep in perspective that we are talking about seasons with 20+ races per season with high car counts.

Granted greed got the best of decision makers on both sides. Feelings, egos or saving face became factors in those decisions. Mistakes, poor judgement and poor management played a role as well. Protecting one's turf and source of revenue was essential in both camps.

Finally, TG created another series. It took 12 years of split before KK gave up the fight. So there is one series now. TG with hind sight has admitted to some of his errors in judgement. I am sure that Roger, Chip, Pat, Gerald and Carl could all admit to their share of errors and/or greed led decisions.

It is time to move on. No amount of verbal bantering with each other will accomplish a thing other than perpetuate hatred.

Again, give it a rest and remember why we have this holiday off to go racing.

[!!WALDO!!]

I also do not dispute any facts stated by Waldo above however he writes from the IMS/IRL/Indy viewpoint. During that time frame the USAC sanctioned only one race, Indy. CART santioned all the others. CART owned all the cars and the teams except for a few Indy based small operations known for running at Indy only. CART was becoming quite successful and was under pressure to start new venues in US and Canada. Phoenix could be replaced with a new venue. Keep in perspective that we are talking about seasons with 20+ races per season with high car counts.

Granted greed got the best of decision makers on both sides. Feelings, egos or saving face became factors in those decisions. Mistakes, poor judgement and poor management played a role as well. Protecting one's turf and source of revenue was essential in both camps.

Finally, TG created another series. It took 12 years of split before KK gave up the fight. So there is one series now. TG with hind sight has admitted to some of his errors in judgement. I am sure that Roger, Chip, Pat, Gerald and Carl could all admit to their share of errors and/or greed led decisions.

It is time to move on. No amount of verbal bantering with each other will accomplish a thing other than perpetuate hatred.

Again, give it a rest and remember why we have this holiday off to go racing.

This deal was done the first time in 1989 for the 1990-1995 seasons. It was to control costs and since CART was losing cars it would hopefully get some new teams to be started and competitive.

Kurt Russell and Mike Devin were designated at the technical heads of this and had final say but only the CART Board voted on it and thus it was approved. This was CHASSIS only, CART did have their boost rules and USAC theirs.
CART before the split averaged 16 races with Indy an USAC race.

Hope that clears it up.

(NO REFERENCE, IMPLIED OR REAL TO ANY POSTER, LIVING, DEAD, or NOT YET BORN.)

[Bob Riebe]

Bob Riebe: It's been two years, and the open-wheeled-racing arguments rage on!

The Nethead here will try to get up to speed on US open-wheeled racing that I haven't really followed after USAC restricted Andy Granatelli's 1967 STP turboshaft racecar into non-competitiveness--and then followed that insult up with injury by banning AWD after Colin Chapman's ill-fated turboshaft Lotuses (Surely the plural isn't "Loti"?) nearly won the 1968 Indy 500 despite their restricted intakes. What BS I've seen at Indy...

At least I hear that CART and the IRL have re-unified, if only so that they could get within knife and straight razor range of eacn other...

So, Bob, please sum up the current status of US open-wheeled racing in three sentences so I can play it by ear in this topic--stuff I make up is always better than stuff that has even an iota of truth in it anyway! What sorta fuel(s) do they use now? What sorta displacement regs/boost regs/etc. regs are they using now?

I sent you a PM via www.motorsportforums.com (http://www.motorsportforums.com), too. I may not be able to respond before Tuesday since I leave on a three-day in 24 minutes...

The Nethead here, survivor of the old AutoWeek forums :eek:
Four wheel drive Indycars--greatly over rated.

People who founded CART--narcissistic morons.

Tony George--narcissistic bozo.

I have paid minimum attention to Indy cars since they became quasi-formula Honda.
There are gents here who can give you a much better analysis, of sorts.
Bob

[Nethead]

Four wheel drive Indycars--greatly over rated.

People who founded CART--narcissistic morons.

Tony George--narcissistic bozo.

I have paid minimum attention to Indy cars since they became quasi-formula Honda.
There are gents here who can give you a much better analysis, of sorts.
Bob

Bob Riebe: All you say is true, except for "Four wheel drive Indycars--greatly over rated"! No one at Indy who tried 4WD had the knowledge to make it work until Granatelli's people in '67 and Colin Chapman's people in '68. In fact, 4WD worked so well that Granatelli's turboshaft STP car shoulda won it in '67 and one of Chapman's Lotuses should have made it two in a row in '68--but parts broke. The concept was clearly superior, but the execution was flawed...Mario Andretti has stated that the turboshaft Lotus that he drove at the '68 Indy 500 was the best racecar he had ever driven. It would not surprise me to hear that Parnelli Jones said something similar about the turboshaft one-off that he drove in the '67 Indy 500.

Seeing the potential breakthroughs in technology here, USAC promptly banned 4WD, thus ending forever any lingering thoughts that the Indy 500 is/was "the pinnacle of automobile racing". The Japanese will have to show the world yet again that great technology competently manufactured will kick ass anywhere, anytime.

But it was what it was and we'll likely never see turboshafts or 4WD at Indy ever again.

Roadracing:

Around the time that AutoWeek shut down their forums for a lengthy re-working (two years ago now?), the Ford GT was a fast, powerful, good-braking, good-handling street car (which Michael Schumacher lauded as "Astonishing!" after he drove one). This year, the supercharged 5.4L V8 has been replaced by a naturally-aspirated 5.0L V8 and has won all four 2008 FIA GT3 races this year, as well as a second and a first in Brazil's 2008 two GT3 races and two firsts and a second in Germany's 2008 four GT3 races. The 5.0 now used in these re-engined Ford GTs is a Roush-Yates developed version of the 5.0 R50 'Cammer used in the Mustang FR500C and Mustang FR500GT4. The Ford GTs are pretty difficult to get unless you fork over the eBay bucks--so Ford has quietly re-opened the chassis assembly line for those who order them for racing purposes only. How much of a complete Ford GT you get is not known to the Nethead here, and I'll hazard a guess that you have to purchase the 5.0 'Cammer separately from Roush-Yates Engines. The engines look externally identical to Ford's most recent crate engine, the 4.6L "Aluminator", that was first shown at last year's SEMA convention.

Whether Matech GT Racing has plans for an eventual assault on LeMans the Nethead here does not know, but Koenigsegg says they are thinking about it, and are developing a 600 HP 5.0L naturally-aspirated version of their twin supercharged 'Cammer to power the Koenigsegg CCGT. Will it be ready for June of '08? The Nethead here thinks not because it is an after-hours project at Koenigsegg--an assault on LeMans takes more than a hobby effort. I'll see if I can find a 2008 LeMans entry list.

I'm gonna "Submit Reply" now just in case this forum has a time-out!

[Bob Riebe]

Nethead:
I saw the PM but outside of the quick reply here, I have been gone.
I'll give you a PM later.

Bob
PS--The Parnelli Jones johnny Lighting team used 4WD Lolas, they did not like them.
To much work for rewards gained.

[Nethead]

Nethead:
I saw the PM but outside of the quick reply here, I have been gone.
I'll give you a PM later.

Bob
PS--The Parnelli Jones johnny Lighting team used 4WD Lolas, they did not like them.
To much work for rewards gained.

Bob Riebe: Then I have something screwed up--the Lightnings were post-1968 if I am not mistaken. If they were 4WD, then the Nethead here is wrong about 4WD being banned by USAC in '68! :confused:

[Nethead]

Bob Riebe: Per www.planetlemans.com (http://www.planetlemans.com), which has a provisional entry list for the event, there are no Koenigsegg entries yet--and time must surely be running out for entering the 2008 LeMans. 'Just as well--a hobby effort is hardly what it takes to be competitive...

On to other things. Retired golfer and retired racecar driver Eric de Doncker drove his #98 Mustang FR500GT4 (a tribute to the late Ken Miles's G.T. 350 circa 1965/1966) to the FIA GT4 European Driving Championship in the 2007 inaugural year and has a good lead in this year's championship (now sporting #1 as the reigning champion instead of last year's #98). He sold last year's car--what I would have given to have bought that baby for my personal enjoyment! I'm sure the purchaser gave more for it than the Nethead here could have given in my wildest dreams! Every race he has to confront a half-dozen Aston-Martin Vantage N24s, various tuner 350Zs, Lamborghini Trofeos, Porsche Caymans, and tuner BMW Z4s--the man likes his challenges! He came out of retirement because of his lifetime admiration of Ken Miles, and he's done ol' Ken proud! He may be one of Europe's oldest racecar drivers, but he's still a fox when it comes to getting the most out of the limited sets of tires allowed in the series (which have to last through two races). Let's hear it for the old dudes!! :up:

[Nethead]

Bob Riebe: Monitor "Starter" deleted a posting to you from me as it was off-topic for the "Month of May" thread. No problemo.

Is there a non-open-wheeled roadracing topic in motorsportforums that you post in? As indicated in the three or four postings I've made in this forum, opened-wheeled racing is not my forte--it has too little relevance to vehicles I own and drive. I used to follow USAC in the late '60s, but disowned them over the turboshaft/4WD nonsense. For awhile, I then followed Formula 1--but with the death of Jim Clark and the USAC-like diddling with 1.5 liter turbocharged engines I found myself struggling to maintain interest in that, too.

If there isn't a non-open-wheeled roadracing topic in motorsportforums that you like, I'll discuss roadracing with you in whatever other roadracing/motorsports/general automotive/series-affiliated or magazine-affiliated forum you prefer. Just name the forum and the thread and I'll register there and we can pick up where we left off.

There is a Canadian forum I frequent, if you're interested. It is a general automobile forum, therefore it is not restricted to open-wheeled racing or even to motorsports. Let me know...

I've asked "Starter" to be patient 'til we can re-convene in a non-open-wheeled roadracing thread in this forum or in some other forum--so I hope this posting will remain undeleted long enough for me to read your reply.

BTW, I have not found the PM that you sent. Please re-send it, and also consider posting the essentials in your reply to this posting just in case.

Thanks,

The Nethead here

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[!!WALDO!!]

Bob Riebe: Then I have something screwed up--the Lightnings were post-1968 if I am not mistaken. If they were 4WD, then the Nethead here is wrong about 4WD being banned by USAC in '68! :confused:

December 31st, 1969.

The first 4 Wheel Drive Car was the STP Novi #9 in 1964 that drove through the fire and out of the race. Same car in 1965 with Bobby Unser up in both.

USAC GOT RID OF 4-WD BECAUSE OF NO DIRECT AUTOMOTIVE APPLICATION.

Cars that ran 4-wd not turbine
1968: Al Unser see my 1968 thread
1969 Bobby Unser Lola Turbo/offy
Mark Donohue Lola Turbo/offy
Bud Tingelstad Lola Turbo/Ford

[indycool]

There may be some confusion over Al Unser's "Johnny Lightning Specials" in 1970 and 1971 and the eventual Lightning chassis.

[Bob Riebe]

December 31st, 1969.

The first 4 Wheel Drive Car was the STP Novi #9 in 1964 that drove through the fire and out of the race. Same car in 1965 with Bobby Unser up in both.

USAC GOT RID OF 4-WD BECAUSE OF NO DIRECT AUTOMOTIVE APPLICATION.

Cars that ran 4-wd not turbine
1968: Al Unser see my 1968 thread
1969 Bobby Unser Lola Turbo/offy
Mark Donohue Lola Turbo/offy
Bud Tingelstad Lola Turbo/Ford
Parnelli Jones team took their Lolas for 1969 and pretty much made them into the RWD Lightnings.
They did not like the 4wd Lolas any more than the Lotus drivers had liked the Lotus 64.
There short life in Formula One was also most no one liked them and they simply were not worth the hassle.

From at least '67. the 4wd drive were allowed to use only 10 inch wide tires up front, till they were banned.

NETHEAD: other than quick replies here, I have been busy, be patient I will write either tonight or tomorrow morning.
Bob

[!!WALDO!!]

Parnelli Jones team took their Lolas for 1969 and pretty much made them into the RWD Lightnings.
They did not like the 4wd Lolas any more than the Lotus drivers had liked the Lotus 64.
There short life in Formula One was also most no one liked them and they simply were not worth the hassle.

From at least '67. the 4wd drive were allowed to use only 10 inch wide tires up front, till they were banned.

Bob

I forgot one of the STP Lotus 64s with Art Pollard did not go far in the race with a turbo offy.
Yes about Parnelli but he actually built both the #2 and #15 from the Lola plans as he only had a 1968 Lola on hand and took pocession of the #60 Lotus in 1969. He built a #3 Wedge 4-WD Turbo-Ford in 1969 but it never made speed and never raced.
Remember also this team in 1969 was a Merger of the Mecom Racing Team and the Vel's Parnelli Jones team. In 1968 Mecom had 2 Lola's, a 1968 4-WD and a 1967 that was demolished by Al at the Speedway (See my 1968 Thread)
Parnelli had two cars a Morris Turbo-Ford and a year old Mongoose Ford. After Indy he became part owner of the #60 along with Agajanian, Firestone and STP.
So for 1970 he built from scratch the P.J. Colt.

There were races on ovals and road courses with 4-wd cars in 1968 and 1969. It is interesting that USAC found no direct automotive application to 4-WD but did to turbocharging.

Today there are more 4-WD vehicles than Turbocharged.

(NO REFERENCE, IMPLIED OR REAL TO ANY POSTER, LIVING, DEAD, or NOT YET BORN.)