Nick Heidfeld vs Robert Kubica

[woody2goody]

Ever since the Turkish Grand Prix, a few people seem to be talking about Robert Kubica 'destroying' and 'outperforming' Nick Heidfeld this season.

Now I agree that it seems Robert has a slight edge over the experienced German, but I don't think there is much of a disparity between the two at all, and either one of them can get the job done for BMW this season.

Here are the team's results this season:

Australia: HEI, Q 5th, Race 2nd (8 pts). KUB, Q 2nd, DNF (hit by Nakajima)

Malaysia: HEI, Q 5th, Race 6th (11), fastest lap. KUB, Q 4th, Race 2nd (8), Gap to Heidfeld, - 30.2 seconds.

Bahrain: HEI, Q 6th, Race 4th, (16). KUB, Pole Position, Race 3rd (14). Gap to Heidfeld - 3 seconds.

Spain: HEI, Q 9th, Race 9th (16), drive-through pen. KUB, Q 4th, Race 4th (19). Gap to Heidfeld - 58 seconds.

Turkey: HEI, Q 9th, Race 5th (20). KUB, Q 5th, Race 4th (25). Gap to Heidfeld - 17 seconds.

Now on the face of it, it would appear that Nick has been destroyed by Robert, but not if you analyse the races.

In Melbourne, Kubica qualified on the front row, and should have had pole. He raced strongly early on, but faded after the safety car came out in the middle of the race, before being unlucky to be hit by Nakajima. Heidfeld however, raced really strongly, and was the only driver to keep Hamilton honest late on.

Malaysia: Robert was only 4th on the grid, but got a good start and raced very strongly to a distant second place. Nick got a good start but was hit by Trulli in turn one and forced wide. He fell down to 10th and couldn't make much headway after that, finishing only 6th, just behind Hamilton and Trulli. It's safe to say he had the pace to finish ahead of the pair of them, and probably Kovalainen as well. He set the fastest lap chasing after Hamilton late in the race.

Bahrain: BMW's best weekend yet. Kubica did a brilliant qualifying lap to get pole. Nick was 6th on the grid, but raced well and was generally as fast as his team-mate, in the end finishing only a couple of seconds behind him as they chased the Ferraris hard to within about 5 seconds of the red cars.

In Spain, Kubica qualified well and latched onto the tail of the top 3, who were within 4 seconds of each other. Heidfeld was running a nice fifth after the demise of Kovalainen and Alonso, until he was forced to pit under the safety car which cost him at least that 5th place if not more. As a result of the penalty he got stuck behind Button, Nakajima and Trulli, and he had no chance to overtake on that particular track.

This weekend in Turkey looked a lot worse than it was for Nick in relation to Kubica. Robert again got the best out of his tyres to be 5th on the grid, while Nick struggled into 9th place. Kubica's race was lonely after Kimi got past and he finished 4th, helped by Heikki's dramas. Nick got a good start, making up a couple of positions, and once he jumped Alonso and Webber at the first stops, he knew fifth was the best he could do. He wasn't pushing for most of the race, knowing that he couldn't catch Kubica and the Renault and Red Bull weren't a threat to his position.

Mario Theissen has said that Nick struggles to warm up his tyres effectively in qualifying, but makes up for it in the race with 'great overtaking moves'. he says it is no different to last year, when Robert struggled with the new control tyres.

I think they're both fantastic drivers, and perfect for this team. People look at the results all the way down F1, and if two team-mates have trouble-free runs and there is a big gap between them, they automatically assume one driver isn't as good as the other one.

For example in Turkey, there was a 17 second gap between NH and RK. 7 seconds of that was probably Nick being behind FA and MW, and the other 10 was probably Robert pushing really hard to try and fend off Raikkonen. It doesn't mean that RK is in any way better than Nick is.

Oh and Nick can't be such a bad qualifier, after all he did get pole at the Nurburgring in 2005: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y_j8V1Z7mVk

[aryan]

Nick is a very talented and quick driver and I hope he can keep his seat at BMW, and also that he finaly get his maiden win, someday.

But let's face it, he is 31 and he is not going to become faster. He is a good racer but he's been having issues in quali this season and the gist of his problems are from that.

I do agree that they are the best drivers BMW could want at this time. Both should be hungry for wins, just like the Beemer.

[Ranger]

Heidfeld is no dummy. Despite having a run of 'bad form' if you like (compared to last year), he is only 4 points behind Kubica, which is the smallest gap between team-mates of everyone who has scored more than 4 points.

[Tazio]

Nick is fast, and constant doesn't take risk's is contently in the points
Robert is very fast a little less consistent take's risk's that either elevates his position or cause mistakes. Both excellent drivers. Robert still has untapped talent. Their styles are contrasting, yet they get pretty much the same results. That means to me that there success or failure comes down to the quality of the car they are driving. Nick has paid his dues. I'd love to see him win some races. I think Robert will flame out before he reaches Nicks current age. I look forward to see him pull down a few wins as well
Put either one in a Ferrari they would stand a good chance of winning a WDC
Put them both in Ferrari's and the WCC would be over at Monza! JMHO

[pino]

My money are on Kubica :up: Nick is a fantastic person but never like him as driver...sorry :p :

[leopard]

I guess you'd like him once he got the whiskers cleaned up. :)

Kubica has driven faster at BMW since the first season, whereas Nick drives more consistently. Nick's experience in F1 and seniority at BMW was advantaging him to have the weigher popularity than Kubica, thus in many occasion although the team didn't do it by intention looked by its nature as if they were trying to put Nick first before Kubica.

Subsequently, Kubica drives and shining more in his second season, and seems to have the same popularity or even outshines Nick his senior teammate. I thought that BMW will implement the same policy about drivers hierarchie, but their exertion challenging title determined more to face reality with eyes widely open.

[Garry Walker]

Kubica was really struggling with tyres last year, but now when he is on form, Heidfeld has no chance. Simply because he is the much faster driver.
The massacre has already being and I will take a lot of enjoyment in seeing some particular Heidfeld fans collect foam at their mouths.
Kubica has so far been the faster driver in all 5 races and that trend will continue. Great :up:

[jens]

Despite having a run of 'bad form' if you like (compared to last year), he is only 4 points behind Kubica, which is the smallest gap between team-mates of everyone who has scored more than 4 points.

But Rosberg has 8 points and Nakajima 5 points. Both have over 4 points and the gap between them is less than 4 points. :p :

[Ranger]

But Rosberg has 8 points and Nakajima 5 points. Both have over 4 points and the gap between them is less than 4 points. :p :

Well, I adjusted the points gap for inflation. ;)

[ShiftingGears]

Kubica was really struggling with tyres last year, but now when he is on form, Heidfeld has no chance. Simply because he is the much faster driver.

It seems from all this that Heidfeld is very good at conserving his tyres but not phenomenal with race pace. Which would explain why he was a strong teammate against Webber in 2005, with the single tyre rule.

[aryan]

It seems from all this that Heidfeld is very good at conserving his tyres but not phenomenal with race pace.

Nick is fast, don't doubt him. This 2008 BMW is not apprantly very much to his liking.

However if he doesn't shine, this might be his last year in a competitive car. As I said, He is not getting any younger...

[F1boat]

Our commentators suggest that Nick has trouble to heat the tyres for one fast lap in qualifying. But in the race he is close to Kubica.

[leopard]

Thought the team implemented strategy in favor of their countryman for the more constant result albeit Kubica had the faster and better qualifying.

In a cleaner face I guess he would be much younger than today.
Being as he is, Nick looks older than his age, besides it is a strong reminder to something. ;)

[ioan]

Our commentators suggest that Nick has trouble to heat the tyres for one fast lap in qualifying. But in the race he is close to Kubica.

Exactly, he is much easier on his tires during the race, however this is a handicap for qualifying as he can't get the tires to work perfectly within the very few laps he has at disposal.

Ditch the race fuel qualifying and he will do better.

[millencolin]

Give heidfeld time, I truly believe that he has the good to succeed for BMW. He proved to me he has it when he and Webber were team mates for Williams. He was the only teammate WebDawg has had that pushed him and i believe, beat him over a season.

Give nick a chance

[ioan]

He's one of the few drivers in top teams that has consistently attempted and succeeded in passing maneuvers. He already has a few for this season too.

[Tazio]

As I stated nick doesn't take the risks that RK does!
Remember this?

[ioan]

In order to win you first have to finish the race.

[ShiftingGears]

In order to win you first have to finish the race.

...And if you don't take risks you don't win ;)

[Tazio]

The good Dr. says he has a remedy! A decent read :up:

Team boss Mario Theissen has defended the performances so far in 2008 of BMW-Sauber driver Nick Heidfeld.

The experienced German driver has been outqualified by his teammate at every event so far this season,
and he only outshone Robert Kubica in the Australian grand prix because Kubica was shunted out of the race
http://www.feedmef1.com/html/modules.php?op=modload&name=News&file=article&sid=10091

[Sleeper]

Heidfeld is pretty close to Kubica in the race but he is always behind on performance, certainly in every race so fr this year and a good portion of the races in the second half of last year.

[jens]

Heidfeld may be smoother than many other drivers, but this however doesn't explain, why he is struggling in qualifying, because if we look at previous seasons, then he has done fine (even in 2005 he outqualified well-known quali expert Webber on a few occasions). Therefore I think Heidfeld's problems are car specific and he together with engineers has to find solutions, how to warm the tyres to optimal working temperature quicker. I hope and think that sooner or later Nick will start performing in qualis too.



Ditch the race fuel qualifying and he will do better.

Well, he is struggling in Q1 and especially in Q2 too, when cars race with 'empty' tanks. At Otodrom Heidfeld's loss in Q2 was way too much, almost half a second. Kubica ended the session in P2 and Heidfeld in P9. :s

[aryan]

Ditch the race fuel qualifying and he will do better.

Yeah, I'm with Jens on this one. I don't think his problem is fuel, it's warming up his tyres in a short period of time.

If they go ahead with getting rid of tyre warmers, Nick might find himself in real trouble.

[Valve Bounce]

My pickems have Robert well over Nick; I think that says it all for me.

[Garry Walker]

Nicks problem is that Kubica is simply the more talented and faster driver. Last year RK made Heidfeld look good, because he struggled with tyres and so on, but now, when he is on form, Heidfeld cannot match him.

Good!

[F1boat]

Nicks problem is that Kubica is simply the more talented and faster driver. Last year RK made Heidfeld look good, because he struggled with tyres and so on, but now, when he is on form, Heidfeld cannot match him.

Good!

While I also share the opinion that RK is better, I fail to understand why when RK has tyre issues he is "making Heidfeld look good", while when Nick has tyre issues "Kubica is simply the more talented and faster driver".

[Garry Walker]

While I also share the opinion that RK is better, I fail to understand why when RK has tyre issues he is "making Heidfeld look good", while when Nick has tyre issues "Kubica is simply the more talented and faster driver".

Exactly how do we know that Heidfeld is struggling with tyres? He simply doesn`t have the pace of RK without TC, which seems to have benefitted RK a lot.

[F1boat]

He can't warm them enough for his qualy laps. That's what our commentators said, I am not making up excuses. He is too "kind" to his tyres.

[Ranger]

Exactly how do we know that Heidfeld is struggling with tyres? He simply doesn`t have the pace of RK without TC, which seems to have benefitted RK a lot.

Mario Theissen:
"Nick, with his smooth style of driving, currently has got problems getting the tyres to working temperature for just one fast qualifying lap, while Robert succeeds in doing so,"
http://www.itv-f1.com/News_Article.aspx?id=42633&PO=42633

You can construe that as you want, but for the time being you have to assume that statement is true.

[Tazio]

While I also share the opinion that RK is better, I fail to understand why when RK has tyre issues he is "making Heidfeld look good", while when Nick has tyre issues "Kubica is simply the more talented and faster driver".Becaude he drives like a maniac. locks up too much
and like the McLaren They Don't have the best balance for a guy who drives so hard and breaks so late! He drive like evey lap is a quali. and is very hard on thr 'stones

[Garry Walker]

Mario Theissen:
"Nick, with his smooth style of driving, currently has got problems getting the tyres to working temperature for just one fast qualifying lap, while Robert succeeds in doing so,"
http://www.itv-f1.com/News_Article.aspx?id=42633&PO=42633

You can construe that as you want, but for the time being you have to assume that statement is true.

Okay, I see.

It is also so that Heidfeld is lacking also in race pace compared to Kubica, by a little margin.

[ioan]

Mario Theissen:
"Nick, with his smooth style of driving, currently has got problems getting the tyres to working temperature for just one fast qualifying lap, while Robert succeeds in doing so,"
http://www.itv-f1.com/News_Article.aspx?id=42633&PO=42633

You can construe that as you want, but for the time being you have to assume that statement is true.

It is a well know fact that what Theissen said is the truth regarding Nick's qualifying problem.
He stated it live on RTL this past week end.

[stevie_gerrard]

This partnership in my opinion is the best partneship in f1. Two quick drivers, very competitive with each other, and despite Kubica vhaving the better of it lately, i dont think it will be very long before Heidfeld is at his very best again.

[gloomyDAY]

Bobby is going to take it to Nicky.

[F1boat]

Okay, I see.

It is also so that Heidfeld is lacking also in race pace compared to Kubica, by a little margin.

Yes, but it's close. In fastest lap charts Robert leads Nick 3-2.

[Garry Walker]

Yes, but it's close. In fastest lap charts Robert leads Nick 3-2.

Fastest laps are irrelevant.
For example, at Malaysia, Kubica was not even pushing when Heidfeld with new tyres and little fuel set the fastest lap of the race. Yet he was by far ahead.

[Roamy]

I suspect Kubica will continue to pound his team mate so the question is will they keep nick for other reasons or will they opt for vettel.

[wedge]

NH and RK are two different drivers, much like Prost and Senna.

NH is more conservative, RK is more aggressive. Therefore this year's car suits RK driving style because the car has a twitchy characteristic which RK can easily exploit, whereas NH has stated in pre-season testing that he's been having to adapt his smooth driving style - much like Button last year having to adapt his driving style more than Barrichello who was quicker than Bunsen in the first half of last year.

I think they're about equal but its NH who's having to play catch up this year.

[Ranger]

I suspect Kubica will continue to pound his team mate so the question is will they keep nick for other reasons or will they opt for vettel.

I reckon they'll get JV.

[Ranger]

Last year RK made Heidfeld look good, because he struggled with tyres and so on, but now, when he is on form, Heidfeld cannot match him.

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/67452

"This is a different year and last year I was struggling with a couple of issues. I don't think I was struggling with the tyres as most people said, I think that was just a good excuse - tyres are always a good excuse."

The reality was a bit different and apparently we did some improvements for this year and I feel more comfortable in the car. I can extract more and set it up is much easier. It is a completely different story. I am working better with my engineer and you see my results."

[ShiftingGears]

Last year RK made Heidfeld look good, because he struggled with tyres and so on, but now, when he is on form, Heidfeld cannot match him.

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/67452

"This is a different year and last year I was struggling with a couple of issues. I don't think I was struggling with the tyres as most people said, I think that was just a good excuse - tyres are always a good excuse."

The reality was a bit different and apparently we did some improvements for this year and I feel more comfortable in the car. I can extract more and set it up is much easier. It is a completely different story. I am working better with my engineer and you see my results."

[Roamy]

I reckon they'll get JV.

they would have won by now if they had kept him
peugot is quite happy with him.

[Roamy]

NH and RK are two different drivers, much like Prost and Senna.

NH is more conservative, RK is more aggressive. Therefore this year's car suits RK driving style because the car has a twitchy characteristic which RK can easily exploit, whereas NH has stated in pre-season testing that he's been having to adapt his smooth driving style - much like Button last year having to adapt his driving style more than Barrichello who was quicker than Bunsen in the first half of last year.

I think they're about equal but its NH who's having to play catch up this year.

you can really use the four drivers in the same breath!!! :eek:

[ioan]

they would have won by now if they had kept him


:rotflmao:

[markabilly]

they would have won by now if they had kept him
peugot is quite happy with him.
They would be winning by now if they had gottten FA.....as I have said all along...... :rolleyes: ...........the question is little different than who is better? eddie irvine or Rubens B, as both were or are solid drivers

The Kube shows the most potential to be something more than a "solid driver" but he ain't there yet

[woody2goody]

My thoughts on a few of these points:

In Oz Kubica was going backwards throughout all the race anyway even before he got taken out.

Nick's race pace throughout is almost the exact match for Kubica's. Nick was pushing so hard in Malaysia because he was still chasing other cars late on in the race when he set fastest lap.

Nick only finished so far behind RK in fastest laps in turkey becaus he didn't push at all after getting past Alonso.

I think both men are almost exactly the same over the course of the year, even though Robert has the edge in quali most of the time. So, naturally Robert will usually finish higher because evn when Nick is faster in races he struggles to make up the positions even with some super overtaking.

If BMW are ever fast enough to qualify 1 and 2 I think Nick would win more races than Robert.

[18000rpm]

One thing though...Kubica is seriously ugly (no offense to him, I think he's a great driver). Do you think any team or sponsor takes that into consideration when hiring a driver?

Can you imagine a Tag Heuer or Mercedes ad with Kubica in it for example.

[leopard]

yeah ... Mercedes drivers are the properer to be in it than Kubica

[gloomyDAY]

One thing though...Kubica is seriously ugly (no offense to him, I think he's a great driver). Do you think any team or sponsor takes that into consideration when hiring a driver?

Can you imagine a Tag Heuer or Mercedes ad with Kubica in it for example.HAHA! Everyone knows Kubica is ugly, but that doesn't mean he can't race. I thought F1 was a contest of speed and winning prowess, not beauty.

As I mentioned before: Bobby will beat Nicky.

[Ranger]

Monaco qualy:

Kubica P5
Heidfeld P13

Looks don't matter in that equation!

[F1boat]

Actually, most F-1 drivers are ugly ;)

[Tallgeese]

Heidfeld hasn't been the man we expected him to be. He is a good racer & all but even he isn't coaxing the most out of the BMW Sauber F1.08, & clearly Kubica has made podiums & even one pole, so he looks set to take out Heidfeld at this pace. As for why Heidfeld hasn't been doing that well, who knows, maybe he needs to adjust or lift his game a bit & take some more risks.

[Garry Walker]

Can you imagine a Tag Heuer or Mercedes ad with Kubica in it for example.

Because Lewis is just so pretty and handsome huh?

Great performance by Heidfeld today and yesterday :rotflmao:

[jens]

I have mentioned it before - in previous seasons Nick has managed to perform in qualis fine, so there must be some other issues, why he is suddenly struggling. Even in 2006 he didn't qualify worse than now - and it's quite obvious F1.08 is better than F1.06 (the first car of BMW-Sauber's cooperation), isn't it?

I just wonder, what might the car characteristics be that Nick struggles to adapt to. As we know, this year's BMW is a new design, which involves a lot of risk and innovation. So I think it acts differently than its predecessors. As Nick is struggling to get heat into the tyres (and he managed it better in previous years), then I wonder whether F1.08 is better in conserving tyres than the predecessors and need more agressive approach in heating up the tyres - something more aggressive Kubica manages just fine.

However, I have been really impressed with Kubica. His drive today was real class IMO and actually I think he is currently one of the best drivers in F1. I think Hamilton has once said too that the driver he fears most, is Kubica. :)

[SGWilko]

One thing though...Kubica is seriously ugly (no offense to him, I think he's a great driver). Do you think any team or sponsor takes that into consideration when hiring a driver?.

If/when he wins a WDC, everyone at BMW Sauber will see him as beautiful!

[ShiftingGears]

Kubica was brilliant.

[ioan]

If/when he wins a WDC, everyone at BMW Sauber will see him as beautiful!

:up:

[Valve Bounce]

Actually, most F-1 drivers are ugly ;)

Yeah!! but Bernie and Max are even uglier. In fact, you could make rubber masks of those two and they would sell like hot cakes at F1 races.

[mirek01]

Yeah!! but Bernie and Max are even uglier. In fact, you could make rubber masks of those two and they would sell like hot cakes at F1 races.
Just tell me where are they I'll buy them both :rotflmao:

[aryan]

Yeah!! but Bernie and Max are even uglier. In fact, you could make rubber masks of those two and they would sell like hot cakes at F1 races.

wow... bernie and max rubber masks...


I so want them now! :D

[nigelred5]

I suspect Max may have a few rubber masks of his own. ;)


NH is good enough to keep his job right now as the only German driver on a German team. As soon as SV is available or AS proves he can keep a car on track long enough to finish a race, I suspect we'll see NH loose his ride.

[wedge]

I just wonder, what might the car characteristics be that Nick struggles to adapt to. As we know, this year's BMW is a new design, which involves a lot of risk and innovation. So I think it acts differently than its predecessors. As Nick is struggling to get heat into the tyres (and he managed it better in previous years), then I wonder whether F1.08 is better in conserving tyres than the predecessors and need more agressive approach in heating up the tyres - something more aggressive Kubica manages just fine.

I'm guessing Nick needs to adapt/fine tune his driving style; develop parts that will help heat the tyres up without radical alterations in driving style.

Being beaten by Kubica wouldn't have helped his confidence either.

[Melqui]

Both are very talented, but I personally beleive that Kubica is leading in the Future of F1, its great driver.

[wedge]

http://www.itv-f1.com/Feature.aspx?Type=Mark_Hughes&id=42811

[jens]

We have seen Nick struggling in qualifying, but this time his race performance was even worse. How could he be so... slow?!?! I even can't remember, when was the last time, when Nick finished as low as 13th. C'mon, sometimes he could create headaches to the midfielders even in a crappy Jordan, but his today's performance is truly puzzling.

[F1boat]

Maybe he is downbeat after Montreal, but the gap between him and RK is humiliating.

[ioan]

Start back there with such a performant midfield was never going to help. How many places did make up Lewy in a way better car?!

However it's time for Heidfeld to pull himself together and produce better qualifying laps, that will help him a lot on race days.

[jens]

As maybe you have noticed, Heidfeld has been getting better and better in qualifyings in every GP weekend and at Silverstone he already qualified in P5! "Good old Nick" is gradually coming back! His race was also very good, kept it on the road, made some nice passes and finished in P2. He's the only driver this season, who hasn't made a serious mistake!

It's quite amazing that although Nick's season has been quite underwhelming by his standards, he's still only 12 points behind the WDC leader! It shows that he is nonetheless still a reliable points scorer and if he has really found his pace again and will continue performing well, his drive at BMW is saved for next year. :)

[ShiftingGears]

:up: Well done Heidfeld. He needed that result. And thats the first time I've seen someone pass two cars in the same corner twice!

[aryan]

Well, didn't he respond to criticism!

Two overtaking moves on two cars at the same time.

Brilliant!

[Ranger]

I agree, brilliant weekend all round for Nick. :up:

He also clawed back 8 points on Kubica, not a bad effort!