Old vs new car classes

[Sulland]

We have for a long periode had Gr A and Gr N with different engine sizes making up the basis for how we divide the rallyworld into classes. (N1-N4 and A5-A8) And we have a lot of classes, that for a non petrolhead is hard to understand. In addition to this we have a lot of cups with similar cars both internationally and nationally.

The new R Classes that FIA has introduced has simplified this a lot, but for a time these two world have to live side by side, or together.

We now see that the S2000 cars really outpace the N4 cars, and FIA has said that they have the power with little notice to go in and make changes to S2000 to make sure they are as evenly matched to N4 as possible.

How can we avoid that from happening ?

S2000 is still a very new concept, and in my opinion should be allowed to develop within their regulations. The new S2000+ is the future, and A8 will die.

Would it not be smart to do the same for N4, kill it - and just have the R classes internationally. The rules for R1-R3 is defined, and it is then logically to call S2000 for R4, and S2000+ for R5, and then we are done ?

Or is it not that simple ?

What is your opinion ?

[BDunnell]

I don't see why any Group N class deserves any sort of prominence. By all means keep the classes to allow people to enter within them, but I don't understand the FIA's reasoning behind wanting to match N4 and S2000. The latter should be given prominence because it represents the future of the WRC far more than any Group N category should.

[jonkka]

but I don't understand the FIA's reasoning behind wanting to match N4 and S2000.

Simply, it is protection of investment. Many drivers and teams have paid much for the N4 cars and related equipment they have now and turning that investment worthless overnight would make many people very angry.

[urabus-denoS2000]

No way,group N has been with Rallying more than A8,S2000 and group B together.You cant just kill it.
They should make S2000+ the main class and leave Group N like it is,or a bit cheaper (there isnt much production in modern group n )

[dumb]

This show will never end.Rally and all motorsport is not for spectators.Motorsport is for car makers.

When FIA puts on new super class(WRC,S2000) car makers sais:"We can do money from this.What an oportunity to show our product.Comercial." Remember what happened at first three years of WRC.And look again now.

And then look one more time to S2000.First few years.Golden age for the class.After some time FIA will make new class.And once again many cars makers will say.WOW.New class.

Thats my opinion.

[cut the b.s.]

We only need 2 classes in rallying, one for the filthy rich and one for the rest :beer: :bounce:

[urabus-denoS2000]

This show will never end.Rally and all motorsport is not for spectators.Motorsport is for car makers.

When FIA puts on new super class(WRC,S2000) car makers sais:"We can do money from this.What an oportunity to show our product.Comercial." Remember what happened at first three years of WRC.And look again now.

And then look one more time to S2000.First few years.Golden age for the class.After some time FIA will make new class.And once again many cars makers will say.WOW.New class.

Thats my opinion.

And it will keep moving in circles....thats just the way it is

[Tomi]

I guess there will be some changes in the group N regulations, lighter weight and possibility to change brake balance.
It would be sad if there would not be a relatively cheap car for privateers, thats why GrN is important.

[Sulland]

Simply, it is protection of investment. Many drivers and teams have paid much for the N4 cars and related equipment they have now and turning that investment worthless overnight would make many people very angry.

They are no more worthless than todays WRC cars. The ones owned by privateers were bought for a high price, and they will fall like a rock if they have not done so already. N4 will still be used in a lot of national series, so the price will stay as is.

But internationally my proposal is:
JWRC= R2
PWRC 2WD= R3
PWRC 4WD= R4 (S2000)
WRC= R5 (S2000+)

[Sulland]

Since it is dead silence on this subject does that mean that for international rallying you all would like to have the following classes:

N1
N2
N3
N4
A5
A6
A7
A8
R1
R2
R3
S2000
S2000+

The only one of these FIA has stated will be killed is A8 in current format (WRC), so all others could stay ?

[kiil]

Since it is dead silence on this subject does that mean that for international rallying you all would like to have the following classes:

N1
N2
N3
N4
A5
A6
A7
A8
R1
R2
R3
S2000
S2000+

The only one of these FIA has stated will be killed is A8 in current format (WRC), so all others could stay ?

AFAIK the R classes are supposed to replace group A and N, so you could remove these and end up with what FIA decided 2 years ago.

[OldF]

I think the N4 class will be preserved because it’s one of the bases beside S2000 for the new WRC cars. The N4 class is a good class for privateers. Internationally all the rest N-group cars will be substituted with the R-classes.

There are also several R-classes. If you look at the regulations (Article 260 and Article 260-D) there are R1A (up to 1400 cc), R1B (1400 cc – 1600 cc), R2B (1400 cc – 1600 cc), R2C (1600 cc – 2000 cc), R3 (1600 cc – 2000 cc petrol), R3T (up to 1600 cc turbo) and R3D (up to 2000 cc diesel), seven different classes. Here should be something for everyone to choose from.

S2000+ and N4+ are IMO good concept for the future WRC cars. I would also add an option for a NA S2500 or S3000 as WRC cars. Only thing that’s bothering me is that all the S2000 cars and in the future all the WRC cars that are based on S2000 are quite small cars. Maybe the weight limit 1150 / 1200 kg is to low for cars like Citroen C4 or Ford Focus. There should be at least one weight level more for bigger cars, for example 1200 / 1250 kg and a bigger restrictor so as they would have equal kg / hp ratio.

Making N4 and S2000 equal in both price and performance is a big challenge. IMO they should leave both N4 and S2000 as they are at the moment. For more money you get more performance. There could be a N4½+ that would have better performance than N4 but not as much as a N+ (N4-WRC).

So for me it should look something like this:

JWRC = R3
PWRC = N4½+ and S2000
WRC = S2000+, N4+, S2500 and S3000

[Sulland]

What is said about the level of tuning of R1 to R3 in different shades ?

[OldF]

I think the R1A and R1B are quite close to group N regulations. I couldn’t find any differences between the R2 and R3 regulations. The differences are probably what can be homologated in R2 and R3 classes (for example bigger brakes for R3C than R2B).

Here’s the link to the regulations:

http://www.fia.com/sport/Regulations/sportcoderegs.html

Click on the link “Appendix J to the International Sporting Code” and open or save the “Article 260 Specific Regulations for Cars in Groups R - published on: 16.04.2008” and “Article 260-D Specific Regulations for Cars in Groups R - published on: 28.01.2008”.