Sebestian Loeb, the Micheal Schumacher of rallying

[Flynn]

Good morning :vader: I am new to this forum :) It's strange that there isn't an official W.R.C. forum; I seem to remember one on W.R.C.com but that seems to have been taken away now, and besides it was only available if you signed up.

Sebestian Loeb is without doubt the greatest champion of all time. He has comfortably won all championships through solid performance and is amazingly consistant and blindingly fast. When he was new in 2003 the commentators were slow to pick up on this strangely. I always remember watching it with them saying how Seb was a "tarmac" specialist :confused: This guy was competing with the top dogs on nearly every surface yet he was merely designated a tarmac specialist? I always found that very strange. And the were the same in 2004 after Sebestian lost his first championship mostly down to an unfortunate set of circumstances. They said that he was not as quick as the other guys yet consistant. I thought "what the hell? This guy is quick and consistant".

In comparison with Makkinen who has won 4 championships, half of them were literally by luck. One of them being were 2 times champion (who should have been 3 times) Carlos Sainz suffered a technical failure with his Toyota Corolla. But it was good that Makkinen was in a position to benefit from that, don't get me wrong. It's just that Seb has won all of his championships comfortably.

Sorry if it seems a bit random but I have been wanting to get this off my back for a long time :vader:

[pino]

I agree he's a great champion, I disagree he's the greatest of all time :)

btw welcome to the forum :up:

[WRCfan]

In the modern era of rallying Seb is without doubt one of the greats. If we look back there are names such as Ari Vatanen, Hannu Mikkola, Carlos Sainz, Juha Kankkunen and so on. The formats for rallies have changed and the cars today are much more reliable. I remember back in the 80's by just winning 4 rallies it could earn a driver the championship title...

Many driver's have shone brightly thoughout the WRC's history and it seems at the moment Sebastien is the man to beat. He is very good, level headed and can calculate how to drive his rallies. The Citroen is also a very reliable car which is a massive help.

Makinen who you say won two of his championships through 'luck', I agree to a degree as luck has a big part to play although Makinen was himself the Loeb of the late 90's so it all depends on how you analyse (sp) the situation. He is more "talent" than good luck in my opinion.

WRCfan

[A.F.F.]

Yep, welcome to the forum Flynn. I also disagree with you. However, Loeb is on his way to be the greatest and there seem to be no stop for him.

What comes to Tommi Mäkinen and his "lucky titles".... well, in fear of a ban, no comment :D

[Ranger]

Good morning :vader: I am new to this forum :) It's strange that there isn't an official W.R.C. forum; I seem to remember one on W.R.C.com but that seems to have been taken away now, and besides it was only available if you signed up.

Sebestian Loeb is without doubt the greatest champion of all time. He has comfortably won all championships through solid performance and is amazingly consistant and blindingly fast. When he was new in 2003 the commentators were slow to pick up on this strangely. I always remember watching it with them saying how Seb was a "tarmac" specialist :confused: This guy was competing with the top dogs on nearly every surface yet he was merely designated a tarmac specialist? I always found that very strange. And the were the same in 2004 after Sebestian lost his first championship mostly down to an unfortunate set of circumstances. They said that he was not as quick as the other guys yet consistant. I thought "what the hell? This guy is quick and consistant".

In comparison with Makkinen who has won 4 championships, half of them were literally by luck. One of them being were 2 times champion (who should have been 3 times) Carlos Sainz suffered a technical failure with his Toyota Corolla. But it was good that Makkinen was in a position to benefit from that, don't get me wrong. It's just that Seb has won all of his championships comfortably.

Sorry if it seems a bit random but I have been wanting to get this off my back for a long time :vader:

I disagree that Makinen was a 'lucky' champion.

No doubt he was not as good as Loeb, but you don't 'luck' into 4 consecutive championships regardless of who you are and in what category you drive.

Loeb must be considered one of the best rally drivers ever, but I find the thread title a tad offensive...

Sebastien Loeb is not the Michael Schumacher of Rallying.

Sebastien Loeb is the Sebastien Loeb of rallying. :)

[AndyRAC]

I'd say he should probably have 5 Titles already, in 2003 Citroen got their tyre choices wrong for Corsica and Catalunya, costing him 2 probable wins, and the Title.
However, you could rate him higher if he hadn't stayed at Citroen and had won with different Manufacturers, a la Kankkunen. It's difficult to compare different eras. Even though I'm a relative younster, I'd rate the older guys higher, simply because the events were harder and longer.

[Zes]

So who can say what is luck and what isn't... Maybe Carlos was lucky to be able to fight for a championship in 1998, when Tommi retired in the last rally. If Tommi hadn't retired, maybe Carlos wouldn't have any chance for a title. Was Loeb lucky in 2006, when Marcus lost the championship by rolling his car in Oz, or last year when Marcus retired in Ireland, or had a bad side window choice in Portugal...

[Flynn]

Well...the Corolla kind of gave up on poor King Carlos :)

[Josti]

Welcome to the forum... :)

...but have to disagree too. I don't know how far your knowledge on rallying history goes, but if it goes well back, it's hard to say he's the greatest of all time.

I do praise his all-round abilities and I'm even pretty convinced he can achieve good results in Formula One or in any other race series for that matter. Statistic wise, he's the greatest or best, but in my opinion there are more factors which defines "Greatest (champion) of all time".

My personal vote would go for Juha Kankkunen. Not only his results and the fact that he won rallies in 3 different era's of rallying history, but also as a character. sliiiiightly arrogant but funny guy at times and always very cool, yet still showing great emotion. Nevertheless, there are too many rallydrivers and reasons to define one as the greatest.

[A.F.F.]

Well...the Corolla kind of gave up on poor King Carlos :)

It's funny. You somehow manage to make it sound like Tommi benefit something out of Carlos' retirement. Tommi also had to retire earlier because missing tye and that policeman. Hence, Tommi had more points before rally GB.

[Fischer]

Although I'm not a Loeb fan, I say he's the greatest ever. His calculating way of driving, his concentration, his speed on every surface, almost non human.

[Zico]

Welcome to the forum Flynn. :)
Sebastian is regarded as the best driver of the current era, but I would never say he was the best driver of all time. The previous eras offered far more competition and demanded different abilities due to the event formats and the different driving styles required for success pre 4wd then pre-active diff.
We had a similar discussion about who was the greatest ever rally driver fairly recently.. The general concensus was that they are incomparable and I agree 100%..

[cut the b.s.]

Well...the Corolla kind of gave up on poor King Carlos :)

And Tomi was 1st to find the oil which was meant to be still inside the sump of a historic.... Both had bad luck on that rally. If Carlos had retired on SS1 with mech problems would you still consider him to have been robbed?

[sollitt]

Although I'm not a Loeb fan, I say he's the greatest ever. His calculating way of driving, his concentration, his speed on every surface, almost non human.
Compared to Walter Rorhl, Loeb is a beginner.

When he can jump out of a rear wheel drive car and into a 4WD car as agricultural as the Audi Quattro, learn left foot braking overnight, and win 1st time in the car against the cream of world rallying, he might be on a par.

Rorhl was considered the most clinical of all rally drivers. Loeb is certainly in that vein. Greatest ever? Not in this lifetime.

[J.Lindstroem]

As a great Tommi Mäkinen fan i also have to sign the list of the people who disagree with this. I think you can say that Carlos Sainz lost the 98 title due to bad luck, but it is really unfair to say that Tommi won it by luck. After so many rallies won and after showing so many times that he is the fastest in that season, i have to say that it is a little bit disgraceful to start talking about that it was "all about luck".

In the title of your thread, you compare rallying with Formula 1, and i have to say that it is quite obvious that you confuse them more than that. In rallying you don't win anything because of luck.

When it comes to Sebastian Loeb, i have to say that i question people in this forum who compare him to drivers in the past. rallying is a complete different sport now compared even with Tommies time. Not said that it is better or not, but i think we shouldn't compare drivers in that way. They all were great drivers and every single rally or championship win has to be respected. =)

[zerodegreec]

I dont agree or disagree. But it should be said that he has had a amazing team behind him with the C4. Lets face it, that car performs day in and day out (other than Seb hitting other c4's :) ).

Do you think that a driver like Petter Solberg could post the times and consistency that Seb does if he had a car that could keep the pace and stay in the rallies? The reason I post this question is due to the success of a similar legand Colin McRae. Nobody could catch him in the glory days of Subaru yet he fell off the pace later on in his career.

[Daniel]

I'd say he should probably have 5 Titles already, in 2003 Citroen got their tyre choices wrong for Corsica and Catalunya, costing him 2 probable wins, and the Title.
However, you could rate him higher if he hadn't stayed at Citroen and had won with different Manufacturers, a la Kankkunen. It's difficult to compare different eras. Even though I'm a relative younster, I'd rate the older guys higher, simply because the events were harder and longer.


Add Rally Australia to that list of bad tyre choices.

[tmx]

You mean almost bringing a car to the podium for the first time in it's running history on the first time driving it and part of the time driving with the stick? He just struggles more with the french team.

All I'm saying is the fourth place driver in Argentina this year was 20minutes behind the leader. It's starting to heat up though.

[F1boat]

It is difficult to compare drivers from different ears, but fact is that Loeb dominates in a way which is hardly seen in motorsport and truly resembles Michael Schumacher's golden years in F1. That's why I agree that he is the best ever, but I would say that he was in the right place in the right time.

[cosmicpanda]

I don't know that Loeb was quick on all surfaces straight away - I seem to recall him being generally slower than other drivers on gravel in 2004, only picking up wins through retirements. That's just my memory though, I might be wrong.

I think his speed on gravel suddenly improved in Mexico 2005, when he made up several places on the last day's 40k stage.

[N.O.T]

Compared to Walter Rorhl, Loeb is a beginner.

When he can jump out of a rear wheel drive car and into a 4WD car as agricultural as the Audi Quattro, learn left foot braking overnight, and win 1st time in the car against the cream of world rallying, he might be on a par.

Rorhl was considered the most clinical of all rally drivers. Loeb is certainly in that vein. Greatest ever? Not in this lifetime.

two words...rally finland....

[I am evil Homer]

So what we're saying is Loeb has to invent time travel to drive a different type of car and then he might just about be okay in some people's eyes? Loeb is clearly a great driver - the Renault F1 test and his LMS outings prove that already, nevermind his performances in different machinery in the RoC.

As for Finland, well yes of course he needs to win that, he's admitted that. But by that token he's obviously better than KKK who couldn't win on tarmac, Loeb's won on gravel of different types, tarmac and snow.

Also worth remembering what I feel is his biggest strength...pace notes. He makes the best around and with Daniel has the best co-driver.

[cut the b.s.]

Compared to Walter Rorhl, Loeb is a beginner.

When he can jump out of a rear wheel drive car and into a 4WD car as agricultural as the Audi Quattro, learn left foot braking overnight, and win 1st time in the car against the cream of world rallying, he might be on a par.

Rorhl was considered the most clinical of all rally drivers. Loeb is certainly in that vein. Greatest ever? Not in this lifetime.


silly post

[Viking]

I don't know that Loeb was quick on all surfaces straight away - I seem to recall him being generally slower than other drivers on gravel in 2004, only picking up wins through retirements. That's just my memory though, I might be wrong.

I think his speed on gravel suddenly improved in Mexico 2005, when he made up several places on the last day's 40k stage.

stage wins 2004

Solberg, Petter 95 (29.4% of stages)
Gronholm, Marcus 69 (21.4% of stages)
Loeb, Sebastien 65 (20.1% of stages)

thank you Juwra.com

[Daniel]

Compared to Walter Rorhl, Loeb is a beginner.

When he can jump out of a rear wheel drive car and into a 4WD car as agricultural as the Audi Quattro, learn left foot braking overnight, and win 1st time in the car against the cream of world rallying, he might be on a par.

Rorhl was considered the most clinical of all rally drivers. Loeb is certainly in that vein. Greatest ever? Not in this lifetime.

Have you let some sort of child use your computer again?

I'm deeply ashamed to think that people who can post such drivel have been involved in rallying for a long time.

Loeb gives 100% on each event. Walter gave 100% when he wanted to. No competition at all.

In regards to comparing them as drivers you're completely wrong as well. Car control is car control. Put any F1 or touring car driver into a rally car and they'll probably do quite well. James Thompson and Derek Warwick (thanks to BDunell's post the other day) spring to mind. Car control is car control. Go to the RoC and you'll see that whether the driver drives an F1 car, a WRCar, a WTCC car, a DTM car or whatever, they have car control and are able to drive most things on four wheels pretty bloody fast. In reality there are very few people like Munari who are good only in one car. I don't see Loeb as being one of them. When he tested the Renno F1 car he was quick, when he drove for Pescarolo at Le Mans he was QUICK!!!! This guy is a good driver no matter what he's driving.

I seem to remember quotes from back in the 80's when only Audi had 4wd that even a trained monkey could win in a Quattro and to a certain extent there is truth to that. I think if you'd put any world class driver into a Quattro at the time they'd have won barring mechanical failure.

I'm sorry for the rant but uneducated drivel makes me angry.

[DonJippo]

two words...rally finland....

Hannu Mikkola once said that it's pity Walter Röhlr never came to drive in Rally Finland as he, like Mr. Mikkola said would have had a chance to win it being so good and fast as he was.

[Tomi]

Hannu Mikkola once said that it's pity Walter Röhlr never came to drive in Rally Finland as he, like Mr. Mikkola said would have had a chance to win it being so good and fast as he was.

Very polite guy this Mr. Mikkola always, I think Röhrl did only drive once in Finland, in Arctic rally, he finished 6th or something like that.

[ste898]

It is a insult to compare Loeb with the rally greats of Vatanen Blomqvist Sainz Makkinen Rhohl Auriol etc etc as they wprked for their titles with proper events

[cut the b.s.]

It is a insult to compare Loeb with the rally greats of Vatanen Blomqvist Sainz Makkinen Rhohl Auriol etc etc as they wprked for their titles with proper events


Its an insult to who? No driver in the history of rallying has ever dominated as Loeb has, Tomi and Juha have 4 titles each, but neither dominated as Seb has done. Does this mean he is better or the opposition worse? Certainly the events and levels of competition have changed through out wrc history and will continue to do so but people should have respect for what he has done because in 20 years time you will boasting to people the you watched Seb in action

Daniel, sound post, said all I couldn't be bothered to say, every word in it true

[Garry Walker]

It is a insult to compare Loeb with the rally greats of Vatanen Blomqvist Sainz Makkinen Rhohl Auriol etc etc as they wprked for their titles with proper events

LOL!!!!!

When you learn to spell properly, let me know. I will then come back here to destroy your stupid post.

Loeb is an all-time great. Possibly the best ever and he is still relatively young and has quite a few seasons left.
Immense respect for him.

[DonJippo]

Very polite guy this Mr. Mikkola always, I think Röhrl did only drive once in Finland, in Arctic rally, he finished 6th or something like that.

Polite or not I have no reason to doubt his words and personally I have always regarded Walter as one of the greatest there ever has been.

[Zico]

In regards to comparing them as drivers you're completely wrong as well. Car control is car control. Put any F1 or touring car driver into a rally car and they'll probably do quite well. James Thompson and Derek Warwick (thanks to BDunell's post the other day) spring to mind. Car control is car control. Go to the RoC and you'll see that whether the driver drives an F1 car, a WRCar, a WTCC car, a DTM car or whatever, they have car control and are able to drive most things on four wheels pretty bloody fast. In reality there are very few people like Munari who are good only in one car. I don't see Loeb as being one of them. When he tested the Renno F1 car he was quick, when he drove for Pescarolo at Le Mans he was QUICK!!!! This guy is a good driver no matter what he's driving.

Absolutely no dis-respect to Seb but do you think with his super smooth "race" style of driving he'd be able to adapt, and beat the best drivers in the previous generation of WRC cars (pre-active diff) era when throwing the car about, balancing the car by pendulem effect was far more of a neccesity ? Im not entirely convinced he would.

It would be crazy to suggest that McRae didnt have great car control, yet he couldnt really adapt well to the smooth style required to get the best speed from the new cars.. I guess old habits die hard.

Im only suggesting that if Sebastian were to travel back in time to the 90's theres a realistic possibility that he could also struggle to adapt to this style and dominate. It can never happen so I think its very unfair to compare the drivers from different eras, especially as the competition was far fiercer than it is now.

[Tomi]

Polite or not I have no reason to doubt his words and personally I have always regarded Walter as one of the greatest there ever has been.

Same here, just joking.

[ste898]

because in 20 years time you will boasting to people the you watched Seb in action




I will never boast to anyone about watching Loeb, but I would boast about watching the proper rally greats!!!!!

[ste898]

LOL!!!!!

When you learn to spell properly, let me know. I will then come back here to destroy your stupid post.

Loeb is an all-time great. Possibly the best ever and he is still relatively young and has quite a few seasons left.
Immense respect for him.


I really dont think you have a clue what you are talking about......Do you even know the drivers I mentioned?

[cut the b.s.]

I really dont think you have a clue what you are talking about......Do you even know the drivers I mentioned?

I know of most of them, but these two are new to me, Makkinen and Rhohl :bounce:

If Loeb was less talented and from Cumbria would it help you like him?

[Garry Walker]

Do you even know the drivers I mentioned?

Well, to be honest, I know most, but I have to admit that rally drivers named makkinen and rhohl are unknown to me.

Were they in midget racing? Or maybe drag racers?

[Garry Walker]

I know of most of them, but these two are new to me, Makkinen and Rhohl :bounce:

Haha. Too funny :D

[ste898]

[quote="Garry Walker"] admit that rally drivers named makkinen and rhohl are unknown to me.QUOTE]

Well I suppose we are not all as perfect as you.......oh dear I spelt 2 names wrong big wow!!!!!!

I'm pleased its getting you so turned on.

[tmx]

But by that token he's obviously better than KKK who couldn't win on tarmac, Loeb's won on gravel of different types, tarmac and snow. Against who? What circumstances?

[Daniel]

Gronholm. I think that's an achievement. Zico just remember that clean driving has always been rewarded. Drivers like Colin are rare exceptions to the rule. So many drivers from the 90's were boring compared to Colin but it didn't mean they weren't still fast. Put Sebastien in a 90's group a car and he would be a lot more sideways than if is now and still fast.

[ste898]

Have you let some sort of child use your computer again?

I'm deeply ashamed to think that people who can post such drivel have been involved in rallying for a long time.

.


It is you that puts the drivel on this forum

[Daniel]

Is not :p

[cut the b.s.]

Against who? What circumstances?


http://www.ewrc-results.com/results_main.php

plenty of info on here if you want to refresh your memory :-)

[Garry Walker]

Well I suppose we are not all as perfect as you.......oh dear I spelt 2 names wrong big wow!!!!!!

I'm pleased its getting you so turned on.
You keep amusing me, now learn to quote :rotflmao:

anyway, if you are interested in a serious discussion, let me know.

[ste898]

anyway, if you are interested in a serious discussion, let me know.

With you? A person that does'nt know much

Errrrr no I dont think so......

[tmx]

http://www.ewrc-results.com/results_main.php

plenty of info on here if you want to refresh your memory :-)

No thanks, it doesn't take too much to remember two person names. No disrepecting to either of them.

[Zico]

Gronholm. I think that's an achievement. Zico just remember that clean driving has always been rewarded. Drivers like Colin are rare exceptions to the rule. So many drivers from the 90's were boring compared to Colin but it didn't mean they weren't still fast. Put Sebastien in a 90's group a car and he would be a lot more sideways than if is now and still fast.

Wouldnt argue with that..

Sry for sounding like a broken record.. :D I still think that the drivers from different eras of the WRC can only be compared seperately. Statisticly, Loebs achievements eclipse the former champions but as someone mentioned earlier, when you take into account the time difference (20 mins) between 1st and 4th place on the Rally Mexico it doesnt say a lot about the current level of competion, something that will be ignored by the history books but not by me..
I hope the new WRC format will re-address the issue, promotes and brings through a lot of fresh talent and if Loeb is still dominating in 5 years time.. I'll probably agree with you.

[Daniel]

Wouldnt argue with that..

Sry for sounding like a broken record.. :D I still think that the drivers from different eras of the WRC can only be compared seperately. Statisticly, Loebs achievements eclipse the former champions but as someone mentioned earlier, when you take into account the time difference (20 mins) between 1st and 4th place on the Rally Mexico it doesnt say a lot about the current level of competion, something that will be ignored by the history books but not by me..
I hope the new WRC format will re-address the issue, promotes and brings through a lot of fresh talent and if Loeb is still dominating in 5 years time.. I'll probably agree with you.

I agree. But I don't see the WRC getting much better too soon sadly.

[BDunnell]

Loeb gives 100% on each event. Walter gave 100% when he wanted to. No competition at all.

There is some truth in this, but when he was rallying Röhrl didn't have to give 100 per cent all the time for two reasons. Firstly, you didn't have to be flat out constantly because of the length of the events, unless (like Mikkola on the 1000 Lakes in 1983) you were fighting back after a problem, or (like Toivonen and Vatanen on that same event) you had to because your car demanded it. Also, you could then be selective about which events you liked and therefore which events you did, and still win the title, as Röhrl proved. A big part of the 'difference' between Loeb and Röhrl, who I agree is probably the benchmark (though Sainz has an equally good claim, on reflection), is down to the changing character of the sport in the last 20 years as much as anything else. It is impossible to compare their levels of innate ability.


Car control is car control. Put any F1 or touring car driver into a rally car and they'll probably do quite well. James Thompson and Derek Warwick (thanks to BDunell's post the other day) spring to mind. Car control is car control. Go to the RoC and you'll see that whether the driver drives an F1 car, a WRCar, a WTCC car, a DTM car or whatever, they have car control and are able to drive most things on four wheels pretty bloody fast. In reality there are very few people like Munari who are good only in one car. I don't see Loeb as being one of them. When he tested the Renno F1 car he was quick, when he drove for Pescarolo at Le Mans he was QUICK!!!! This guy is a good driver no matter what he's driving.

I agree about Loeb. However, when I made that post about Derek Warwick, I also said that it was probably easier for him to do well on his first WRC outing in 1990 than it would be for, say, Robert Kubica to do well in a WRC event now. This is purely because of the way the WRC has changed in the intervening period. And, looking further back, no-one will surely ever match the versatility of such as Stirling Moss and Vic Elford in being competitive on track and stage.



I seem to remember quotes from back in the 80's when only Audi had 4wd that even a trained monkey could win in a Quattro and to a certain extent there is truth to that. I think if you'd put any world class driver into a Quattro at the time they'd have won barring mechanical failure.

This was allegedly said by Walter Röhrl about Michele Mouton, but to be fair he feels strongly that he was taken way out of context, and I for one believe him, because he admired Mouton as a competitor. Röhrl, of course, initially rejected Audi's advances because he thought the Quattro would be too heavy and understeery, and early on he was right. Plus, it was almost always rubbish on tarmac.

[BDunnell]

Hannu Mikkola once said that it's pity Walter Röhlr never came to drive in Rally Finland as he, like Mr. Mikkola said would have had a chance to win it being so good and fast as he was.

There were several drivers who didn't like the 1000 Lakes (not Rally Finland ;) ), but were undoubtedly great drivers. Tony Pond was one — it was among the events he viewed as being too 'specialised'. Röhrl felt the same about the RAC. As I said in the post above, at the time, it didn't really matter. I don't think this makes the likes of Pond and Röhrl inferior to such as Loeb, but neither do I feel that Loeb's numbers of wins and championships make him superior to them, because comparing drivers from different eras may be interesting, but it's ultimately impossible.

Sorry for 'shouting', but I can't stress that point highly enough. The day statistics count for everything in sport will be a depressing one indeed.

[BDunnell]

Sry for sounding like a broken record.. :D I still think that the drivers from different eras of the WRC can only be compared seperately. Statisticly, Loebs achievements eclipse the former champions but as someone mentioned earlier, when you take into account the time difference (20 mins) between 1st and 4th place on the Rally Mexico it doesnt say a lot about the current level of competion, something that will be ignored by the history books but not by me..


But those same history books also show a gap of more than 17 minutes between first and fourth places on the 1984 RAC Rally, which was a tremendous event. I chose that one at random — there are other similar examples.

http://www.rallybase.nl/index.php?type=result&rallyid=251

[Daniel]

There were several drivers who didn't like the 1000 Lakes (not Rally Finland ;) ), but were undoubtedly great drivers. Tony Pond was one — it was among the events he viewed as being too 'specialised'. Röhrl felt the same about the RAC. As I said in the post above, at the time, it didn't really matter. I don't think this makes the likes of Pond and Röhrl inferior to such as Loeb, but neither do I feel that Loeb's numbers of wins and championships make him superior to them, because comparing drivers from different eras may be interesting, but it's ultimately impossible.

Sorry for 'shouting', but I can't stress that point highly enough. The day statistics count for everything in sport will be a depressing one indeed.

I agree. But to be honest Loeb has done about as well as anyone could do in the modern era other than winning in Finland which is the one thing he hasn't done yet.

[Zico]

There were several drivers who didn't like the 1000 Lakes (not Rally Finland ;) ), but were undoubtedly great drivers. Tony Pond was one — it was among the events he viewed as being too 'specialised'. Röhrl felt the same about the RAC. As I said in the post above, at the time, it didn't really matter. I don't think this makes the likes of Pond and Röhrl inferior to such as Loeb, but neither do I feel that Loeb's numbers of wins and championships make him superior to them, because comparing drivers from different eras may be interesting, but it's ultimately impossible.

Sorry for 'shouting', but I can't stress that point highly enough. The day statistics count for everything in sport will be a depressing one indeed.

Well said..

[Zico]

But those same history books also show a gap of more than 17 minutes between first and fourth places on the 1984 RAC Rally, which was a tremendous event. I chose that one at random — there are other similar examples.

http://www.rallybase.nl/index.php?type=result&rallyid=251

Interesting.. How would the total milage have compared?

[BDunnell]

I agree. But to be honest Loeb has done about as well as anyone could do in the modern era other than winning in Finland which is the one thing he hasn't done yet.

And to me that doesn't really make his achievements any less notable.

[BDunnell]

Interesting.. How would the total milage have compared?

Good point.

[Daniel]

But those same history books also show a gap of more than 17 minutes between first and fourth places on the 1984 RAC Rally, which was a tremendous event. I chose that one at random — there are other similar examples.

http://www.rallybase.nl/index.php?type=result&rallyid=251

17 minutes between 1st and 3rd ;)

I think you can also put that down to the fact that cars back then weren't as reliable plus there was double the stage mileage. These days the cars could probably run that mileage no problems. Drivers though could be a problem. Which I think would be a good thing.

[Daniel]

And to me that doesn't really make his achievements any less notable.

It's only a small chink in his armour :) Even the best all rounders always have a weak spot. Is there anyone around who has won all the rounds of the championship in their day?

[BDunnell]

It's only a small chink in his armour :) Even the best all rounders always have a weak spot. Is there anyone around who has won all the rounds of the championship in their day?

I very much doubt it. Very few drivers could have won every 'type' of rally, largely because they wouldn't be entered for that many events in a season. Depended on what they drove, of course. Hannu Mikkola and Stig Blomqvist weren't bad on tarmac, but in the Quattro they had no chance (although Stig was superb on the Ulster Rally in 1983, the car's first international tarmac win). Vatanen, I feel, came closest in the Group B era when driving for Peugeot.

[sollitt]

... uneducated drivel makes me angry.

As others have said, look in the mirror. Pot, kettle, black. That type of thing.

In the 80's I was into my 2nd decade of rallying involvement and my memories are real gained through experiences in that era.

At the time Walter Rohrl was plying his trade you were but a screaming food recycling vessel in diapers. At 24 it's time you grew up!

When Rohrl moved from Lancia to Audi he went on record as saying he couldn't believe left foot braking was necessary in a rally car and had never practiced it.
In a short test session he learned that skill and the intricacies of the car and went on to win first time out against more experienced Audi drivers (and super stars) Hannu Mikkola and Stig Blomquist.
This was his 4th Monte Carlo win from 4 attempts and in 4 different cars.

Could Loeb have achieved that feat against the calibre of opposition Rohrl faced? Fact is he hasn't been tested in similar circumstances so we don't know. But we do know that Rohrl succeeded.

You suggest that your recollection of the time was that the Audi was so easy to drive that a trained monkey could manage it. That's quite amazing given your age at the time.

Mine is that the car was something of a handful (agricultural is the word I used earlier) and the writings of the journalists of the time would verify that.

Even the other teams were in awe of his skill in a car they described as a tank, amongst other things.

And let's not forget that he not only competed against the other teams but world class drivers in the same car.

Rohrl was the 1st driver to win 2 world titles (although the series was young in those days) and was renowned as being able to win in any car.

He was always amongst the top of the journalists driver assessments and throughout the 80's was widely labelled as the sports "purest professional" the "most complete driver" or some other such thing.

All this in a time when there were sometimes as many as 4 or 5 top drivers in a team, no #1 status and several teams of equal performance.

I believe I stated that I see Loeb in a similar vein, but not quite there yet. And I haven't yet read any articles from 'experienced' journalists who would suggest he has anything like the mantle of Rohrl. But it'll come.

Daniel, I'm glad you're ashamed. You ought to be. Some of us have been around this sport a long long time and comment on this forum from knowledge and experience. That's knowledge and experience that you don't possess and you would do well to aquire the intellect and the social skill to accept that and debate gracefully and intelligently applying the limited knowledge you do have. The forum would be a much happier place if you did.

[Daniel]

You suggest that your recollection of the time was that the Audi was so easy to drive that a trained monkey could manage it. That's quite amazing given your age at the time.

Considering you can't remember what you read a few minutes ago I think I have no case to answer :laugh:

Read my post and reply again. Perhaps a cup of coffee and not being so uppity might help :)

[BDunnell]

As others have said, look in the mirror. Pot, kettle, black. That type of thing.

In the 80's I was into my 2nd decade of rallying involvement and my memories are real gained through experiences in that era.

At the time Walter Rohrl was plying his trade you were but a screaming food recycling vessel in diapers. At 24 it's time you grew up!

When Rohrl moved from Lancia to Audi he went on record as saying he couldn't believe left foot braking was necessary in a rally car and had never practiced it.
In a short test session he learned that skill and the intricacies of the car and went on to win first time out against more experienced Audi drivers (and super stars) Hannu Mikkola and Stig Blomquist.
This was his 4th Monte Carlo win from 4 attempts and in 4 different cars.

Could Loeb have achieved that feat against the calibre of opposition Rohrl faced? Fact is he hasn't been tested in similar circumstances so we don't know. But we do know that Rohrl succeeded.

You suggest that your recollection of the time was that the Audi was so easy to drive that a trained monkey could manage it. That's quite amazing given your age at the time.

Mine is that the car was something of a handful (agricultural is the word I used earlier) and the writings of the journalists of the time would verify that.

Even the other teams were in awe of his skill in a car they described as a tank, amongst other things.

And let's not forget that he not only competed against the other teams but world class drivers in the same car.

Rohrl was the 1st driver to win 2 world titles (although the series was young in those days) and was renowned as being able to win in any car.

He was always amongst the top of the journalists driver assessments and throughout the 80's was widely labelled as the sports "purest professional" the "most complete driver" or some other such thing.

All this in a time when there were sometimes as many as 4 or 5 top drivers in a team, no #1 status and several teams of equal performance.

I believe I stated that I see Loeb in a similar vein, but not quite there yet. And I haven't yet read any articles from 'experienced' journalists who would suggest he has anything like the mantle of Rohrl. But it'll come.

Daniel, I'm glad you're ashamed. You ought to be. Some of us have been around this sport a long long time and comment on this forum from knowledge and experience. That's knowledge and experience that you don't possess and you would do well to aquire the intellect and the social skill to accept that and debate gracefully and intelligently applying the limited knowledge you do have. The forum would be a much happier place if you did.

I think Röhrl is one of the greatest WRC drivers ever, and I will always love watching film of him driving just as I did when I was a kid, but none of the above convinces me of his superiority over Loeb, because of the proviso I mentioned earlier. My heart tells me that Röhrl is better, but my head tells me that this is a purely subjective judgment on my part.

And, as I said, the remark about the monkey in the Quattro was originally made jokingly by Röhrl himself when he was an Opel driver.

[Daniel]

I think Röhrl is one of the greatest WRC drivers ever, but none of the above convinces me of his superiority over Loeb, because of the proviso I mentioned earlier. My heart tells me that Röhrl is better, but my head tells me that this is a purely subjective judgment on my part.

And, as I said, the remark about the monkey in the Quattro was originally made jokingly by Röhrl himself when he was an Opel driver.

I remember being there as an embyro. Remember it quite well :up:

Seriously though BDunnell. Who are you to talk about the WRC. How many decades have you competed for? One needs to have driven at club level where there are NO untalented drivers at all for at least 50 years before you can even offer any opinions on rallying at all.

All hail Lord Brucey!

[Daniel]

I very much doubt it. Very few drivers could have won every 'type' of rally, largely because they wouldn't be entered for that many events in a season. Depended on what they drove, of course. Hannu Mikkola and Stig Blomqvist weren't bad on tarmac, but in the Quattro they had no chance (although Stig was superb on the Ulster Rally in 1983, the car's first international tarmac win). Vatanen, I feel, came closest in the Group B era when driving for Peugeot.

Ari was amazing even in the days when I saw him in the Legacy RS. Would have been interesting to see what the 80's would have been like if he'd not had the huge accident in Argentina which I remember extremely well as I was there even though neither myself of any family member of mine has been to South America. Lots of what if's of course :)

[Zico]

Me too... Ari was and still is idolised in our household, watching "The Vatanen Touch" and "Climb Dance" still makes the hair on my neck stand on end.

[Daniel]

Me too... Ari was and still is idolised in our household, watching "The Vatanen Touch" and "Climb Dance" still makes the hair on my neck stand on end.
I love the reactions you get from people when you show them the tape. Doesn't compare to when I was actually there watching Ari on all of his runs even though I've never actually been to the US.

[A.F.F.]

How about a chill pill Daniel :)

The thing is that truth seem to vary when time passes on. For example. When yesterday's hockey game Canada vs USA turns to history and statistics, let's say within 20 years, you can say Canada won when everybody who watched the game know that USA played better hockey. I know this because I was there at Halifax at the same I was at work here in Helsinki ;)

I never liked Walter Rorhl because he felt very arrogant comparing to my "local boys". Thanks to better selection of video footage material I've notice he even wasn't arrogant :eek: I just never got to see him giving interviews and stuff. And boy could he drive.

[Daniel]

How about a chill pill Daniel :)

The thing is that truth seem to vary when time passes on. For example. When yesterday's hockey game Canada vs USA turns to history and statistics, let's say within 20 years, you can say Canada won when everybody who watched the game know that USA played better hockey. I know this because I was there at Halifax at the same I was at work here in Helsinki ;)

I never liked Walter Rorhl because he felt very arrogant comparing to my "local boys". Thanks to better selection of video footage material I've notice he even wasn't arrogant :eek: I just never got to see him giving interviews and stuff. And boy could he drive.

Chill pill? You know me better than that dude :p

Blatantly lying is fun isn't it :D

The man can still drive too..... http://youtube.com/watch?v=E93ag4Rp-Gg&feature=related

[BDunnell]

Ari was amazing even in the days when I saw him in the Legacy RS. Would have been interesting to see what the 80's would have been like if he'd not had the huge accident in Argentina ...

Yes. Quite understandably, people tend to ask 'what if Toivonen had lived', but I think the question about Vatanen and Argentins is just as interesting.

[BDunnell]

I never liked Walter Rorhl because he felt very arrogant comparing to my "local boys". Thanks to better selection of video footage material I've notice he even wasn't arrogant :eek: I just never got to see him giving interviews and stuff. And boy could he drive.

This is my main memory of Röhrl - the British debut of the Sport Quattro on the 1984 Ulster Rally.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vb54Czy8Je8

'I must go even more flat out than normal...'

[kabouter]

When talking (or in some cases arguing...) about all-round rally drivers, I think Björn Waldegård deserves a mention. During his very long and distinguished career he won the Monte, the Swedish, the RAC, Sanremo when it was an all-asphalt event, smooth gravel rallies (Alpenfahrt, New Zealand), rough gravel rallies (Acropolis) and many, many African events. And in the process he became the first World Driver's Champion. Had that title existed in previous years, he might have had more titles given his results in Manufacturer's championship rounds before 1979. Admittedly like Loeb and Röhrl he didn't win in Finland, though.

[BDunnell]

When talking (or in some cases arguing...) about all-round rally drivers, I think Björn Waldegård deserves a mention. During his very long and distinguished career he won the Monte, the Swedish, the RAC, Sanremo when it was an all-asphalt event, smooth gravel rallies (Alpenfahrt, New Zealand), rough gravel rallies (Acropolis) and many, many African events. And in the process he became the first World Driver's Champion. Had that title existed in previous years, he might have had more titles given his results in Manufacturer's championship rounds before 1979. Admittedly like Loeb and Röhrl he didn't win in Finland, though.

I agree. He is unfairly overlooked. Also worth mentioning is the fact that, like Röhrl, he won on his first rally in a Quattro, the Welsh in 1982.

[A.F.F.]

This is my main memory of Röhrl - the British debut of the Sport Quattro on the 1984 Ulster Rally.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vb54Czy8Je8

'I must go even more flat out than normal...'

The best piece of footage for me was ripped of from The Greatest Years of British rallying 1972 - 2000 where he drove Porsche 911 in some event. He was totally thrilled because when they made notes to that particular rally, the avarage speed was so low they didn't feel the bumps on road. But when they drove flat out, I hear it was amazing :D :up: Walter seemed like a little boy when he told that story and he was totally in the zone :D

I'm sorry about the lack of important details but I'm at work right now and the DVD is at home so I can't check the event and year out.

[BDunnell]

The best piece of footage for me was ripped of from The Greatest Years of British rallying 1972 - 2000 where he drove Porsche 911 in some event. He was totally thrilled because when they made notes to that particular rally, the avarage speed was so low they didn't feel the bumps on road. But when they drove flat out, I hear it was amazing :D :up: Walter seemed like a little boy when he told that story and he was totally in the zone :D

I'm sorry about the lack of important details but I'm at work right now and the DVD is at home so I can't check the event and year out.

I'm sure that event was the 1981 Manx International, won by Tony Pond in his Chevette HS.

[savvas]

Good morning :vader: I am new to this forum :) It's strange that there isn't an official W.R.C. forum; I seem to remember one on W.R.C.com but that seems to have been taken away now, and besides it was only available if you signed up.


In comparison with Makkinen who has won 4 championships, half of them were literally by luck. One of them being were 2 times champion (who should have been 3 times) Carlos Sainz suffered a technical failure with his Toyota Corolla. But it was good that Makkinen was in a position to benefit from that, don't get me wrong. It's just that Seb has won all of his championships comfortably.

Sorry if it seems a bit random but I have been wanting to get this off my back for a long time :vader:

I don't agree with you on Makinen's luck because he retired out of bad luck from that particular event as a result of a classic car's oil spill left the previous day that was not in the pace notes. I think he could have easily scored podium. As far as I know he won all his championship titles fair and square very dominantly. Don;t forget he was also stripped 10 points in Australia rally for a non-performance related reason relating to the turbo.



Loeb is the greatest of the modern era, no doubt.





because

[A.F.F.]

I'm sure that event was the 1981 Manx International, won by Tony Pond in his Chevette HS.

Yes, you were absolutely right. Brilliant battle between Rohrl, Pond and Jimmy McRae. Pond made that lead with his experience of the rally at night stages. I just had to watch it again :)

[Daniel]

I'm sure that event was the 1981 Manx International, won by Tony Pond in his Chevette HS.
Is there anything about British rallying in the last 20 or so years that you don't know off the top of your head? :p

[pino]

When talking (or in some cases arguing...) about all-round rally drivers, I think Björn Waldegård deserves a mention. During his very long and distinguished career he won the Monte, the Swedish, the RAC, Sanremo when it was an all-asphalt event, smooth gravel rallies (Alpenfahrt, New Zealand), rough gravel rallies (Acropolis) and many, many African events. And in the process he became the first World Driver's Champion. Had that title existed in previous years, he might have had more titles given his results in Manufacturer's championship rounds before 1979. Admittedly like Loeb and Röhrl he didn't win in Finland, though.

Totally agree with you :up: Bjorn is on top of my list along with Henry, followed by Rohrl, Mikkola, KKK...etc...etc...

[AndyRAC]

Is there anything about British rallying in the last 20 or so years that you don't know off the top of your head? :p

He's obviously a veritable encyclopedia of British Rallying!!

[ST205GT4]

Chill pill? You know me better than that dude :p

Blatantly lying is fun isn't it :D

The man can still drive too..... http://youtube.com/watch?v=E93ag4Rp-Gg&feature=related


Bah Rohl-smoll...Look at this guy!

http://youtube.com/watch?v=g9t1iV0RsJY

[BDunnell]

Is there anything about British rallying in the last 20 or so years that you don't know off the top of your head? :p

Anything much after 1990, in fact! Though I did watch a lot of BRC coverage in the F2 days, it doesn't stick in the memory like the Mantas, Quattros, Cosworths, Kadetts, Escorts, Chevettes, and so on...

[AndyRAC]

Anything much after 1990, in fact! Though I did watch a lot of BRC coverage in the F2 days, it doesn't stick in the memory like the Mantas, Quattros, Cosworths, Kadetts, Escorts, Chevettes, and so on...

Compared to now, the F2 days were a Golden era!!

[BDunnell]

Compared to now, the F2 days were a Golden era!!

Indeed they were.

[Daniel]

Compared to now, the F2 days were a Golden era!!
You could forgive me for thinking the BRC didn't even exist anymore :mark: