Olvey: F1 Treatment of Injured Drivers inadequate

[BobbyC]

Steve Olvey of Jackson Memorial Hospital in Miami blasted the FIA medical procedures after Heiki Kovalanien's crash Sunday.

"You don't have a lot of time and I think this accident will be investigated thoroughly to see if there's any way to gain access to the driver faster. That is a problem, because if you are unconscious and perhaps not breathing you don't have more than two or three minutes before you get some kind of significant damage. So, that's going to have to be looked into."

A typical NASCAR incident, even with safety workers and an EMT in each truck, and its 6,000 kg size and 6500cc turbodiesel based on a pickup, can treat a driver within 30 seconds usually thanks to rules on how many trucks are required, and the safety workers on jumpseats. The power of those trucks can also be an advantage.

The IRL, like the old CC, uses safety workers in smaller trucks (Honda provides the league trucks except for the 500) and jumpseats.

If NASCAR's procedure or IRL's was used, Heiki would have been treated almost immediately as the ambulance and safety truck would be out within 30 seconds. The Medical Car's tardiness in F1 is one procedure that Olvey is right that should be changed. He'd probably go with the ambulance and safety truck in each series of corners to help and those guys would just go immediately in a crash.

[grantb4]

Yeah I was appalled at how long it took them to get the car out. They need to look at either the extraction of the car and/or why it buried so deep.

Having said that, I think they already have multiple ambulances on site. Don't confuse the Medical Car with an ambulance. I think the Medical Car is really only useful for escorting an unscathed driver back to the pits. Or some other non-medical excuse to have a fast Mercedes (near) street car. Used to give Sid Watkins something to drive around in. Like chasing the pack after the standing start...

[ShiftingGears]

The difference between NASCAR and IRL to F1 is that there are no tyre walls because there is no need. Hence, there isn't time spent getting cars out of the barriers, so its not a very good comparison.

[MAX_THRUST]

Ok first point, I rate Stighly and truly believe steve Olvey has some very valid points.

Second point, having watched Kubicas accident again from Canada last year (yes it was massice) and then Heiki's, are the front of F1 cars strong enough? I have seen many crashes on ovals and street courses in the US series, and very few involved drivers feet being exposed.

The sides of cars are high enough now and have helped with head injuries, I think the ,legs are being forgotten about.......

[MAX_THRUST]

Third point what did all that mean, I can't read my own post

[Powered by Cosworth]

The marshalls and medical team did an excellent job, it was just unlucky that Heikki crashed on the far side of the track.

[Hawkmoon]

How do you make a valid comparison between an oval circuit where you can see every part of the track from every other part of the track and a 4.5 km long real race track, you know, one that goes left and right?

It's easy for the NASCAR doctors to be on the scene in 30 seconds when they are stationed in the middle of the circuit. It's a totally different story for the F1 doctors stationed in the pits who may have to drive several kilometres to get to the scene of the accident.

Sure, have more doctors, but I don't think it will make much difference.

[Knock-on]

Why would they drag the car out immediatly? How do you know it's safe to do so? It may be the driver has a broken neck or his foot is trapped in the barrier and yanking a car out is going to make things much worse.

Then we have Marshalls and medically trained personnel stationed around the circuit. In the first few minutes, there is very little that needs to be done apart from stabalise and diagnose. By the time the basics that any medically trained Monkey have been performed, then specialist help would be there.

[SteveA]

Why would they drag the car out immediatly? How do you know it's safe to do so? It may be the driver has a broken neck or his foot is trapped in the barrier and yanking a car out is going to make things much worse.


Rather than have to worry about how to safely extricate a driver buried in a barrier, they should be looking at ways to stop cars getting embedded in the first place.

[MAX_THRUST]

For those that are unaware Steve Olvey was chief Medical man for CART for many years. AS you may or may not know he delt woth road course, street circuits and ovals. During his time in CART he attended at least three fatalities. ONe oval, 99, one Street 96, and one road course also 99.

In all incidencies major changes to the circuits were implemented as these were deemd to be a major factor in the passing of those three drivers. The medical response in all cases was first class and rapid. So why was F1 so slow to get a car to the scene.

Its not the first time F1 has been pulled up on safety, testing at the Spainish track has been mentioned in the past there was a lack of medical support adequate for the associated risks.

I'm not digging at F1 and saying it is pants, but when something can be learned it needs to be learned not ignored!!!!!!!!

[JSH]

Steve Olvey of Jackson Memorial Hospital in Miami blasted the FIA medical procedures after Heiki Kovalanien's crash Sunday.

"You don't have a lot of time and I think this accident will be investigated thoroughly to see if there's any way to gain access to the driver faster. That is a problem, because if you are unconscious and perhaps not breathing you don't have more than two or three minutes before you get some kind of significant damage. So, that's going to have to be looked into."

A typical NASCAR incident, even with safety workers and an EMT in each truck, and its 6,000 kg size and 6500cc turbodiesel based on a pickup, can treat a driver within 30 seconds usually thanks to rules on how many trucks are required, and the safety workers on jumpseats. The power of those trucks can also be an advantage.

The IRL, like the old CC, uses safety workers in smaller trucks (Honda provides the league trucks except for the 500) and jumpseats.

If NASCAR's procedure or IRL's was used, Heiki would have been treated almost immediately as the ambulance and safety truck would be out within 30 seconds. The Medical Car's tardiness in F1 is one procedure that Olvey is right that should be changed. He'd probably go with the ambulance and safety truck in each series of corners to help and those guys would just go immediately in a crash.

While he may have a point, hopefully he's made the comments in a constructive phone call to the FIA rather that just mouthing off in the media.

[veeten]

in short, this is how it should be done...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=__ByotKbusU

watch the crash, then time the response.

That was the famous CART/Champcar Accident Response Team, well known around the world for their ability to handle any type of incident, regardless of the type of track the race was on (Oval, Superspeedway, Road Course or Street Track). Established in 1981, its been the gold standard, with many drivers thanking them for being the first on the scene in seconds.

[AndyRAC]

You forget that F1 doesn't like taking advice from 'lesser' formulae!

[Whyzars]

It was similar to Schumacher's crash at Silverstone in 1999. If memory serves, Schumacher was stuck in the tyres for quite a while as well.

Why do they continue to use tyres anyway?

[dc10]

It was similar to Schumacher's crash at Silverstone in 1999. If memory serves, Schumacher was stuck in the tyres for quite a while as well.

Why do they continue to use tyres anyway?

I think its something to do with absorbing the shock impact i.e. lessening the damage to car and driver.

[Roamy]

for the pinnacle of motorracing F1 is back of book when it comes to medical response and on track equipment. And just who oversees this lack of technology??

[Sleeper]

It was similar to Schumacher's crash at Silverstone in 1999. If memory serves, Schumacher was stuck in the tyres for quite a while as well.

Why do they continue to use tyres anyway?
Would you rather they used concrete walls or retaining barriers everywhere? Tyres are the best option at the moment as they arent solid objects so they will lesson crash forces on a driver plus they can be moved back into position latter on so that the race can continue (not something you could do to easily on a road course with SAFFER barriers).

[BobbyC]

That section where Heiki crashed is one point that Olvey would probably say is a place where an opening would be best suited for crash treatment. US motorsport is stricter regarding tracks needing more entrances for safety vehicles. In fact, when Jeff Gordon had his Las Vegas crash, the impact was worsened because his car hit the unprotected part of the safety truck opening.

Under Olvey's watch in CART, they did more to mandate safety holes for their Holmatro Safety Team. Having a fast truck with medics and safety staff in each cab helps.

He'd probably wish the truck at the opening in the wall was there so the truck could chug immediately to the point within 15 seconds with a full crew there.

[tinchote]

Second point, having watched Kubicas accident again from Canada last year (yes it was massice) and then Heiki's, are the front of F1 cars strong enough? I have seen many crashes on ovals and street courses in the US series, and very few involved drivers feet being exposed.


Exposed or not, neither Kubica nor Kovalainen got their legs hurt. As far as I can tell, the front of the car looks "exposed" after the crash because they remove the driver with seat and everything.

[Tazio]

I think the cause of the wheel failier should be more closely scrutinized!
I understand that McLaren are looking at the data.
I lifted an F1 wheel with inflated tyre at BMW Pit Lane Park with one finger!

[D-Type]

Looking at the date and remembering, let's just be thankful he survived!

I'm sure that the F1 establishment will be studying the incident and taking the lessons on board.

Tyre barriers do absorb energy and reduce the impact. Just imagine if he had gone straight into an unyielding concrete or Armco barrier.

Catch fencing does work to slow a car down but it has disadvantages:
1. It can wrap itself around a car necessitating the use of wire cutters to get to a driver
2. Posts can get uprooted and cause severe damage
3. It requires quite considerable depth to allow the fencing to deform
4. Because the fencing stretches rather than breaks the best way for marshalls to get to a driver is through the hole a car has made. This is particularly difficult in the case of fire

A head-on impact is the most difficult for mobilising the passive energy absorption capacity of the car. It absorbs a lot of energy ripping off wheels and things. The nose is relatively light but it does absorb some energy in a head on accident by buckiling and breaking up(think of a rolled up newspaper you can practically stab someone with it but use it like a club and it just bends. And for almost the last thirty years a driver's feet have been behind the front wheels so there is some more structure there.

The only alternative I can think of is some form of purpose-built rubber fendering like they put on docks. But the principle they work on is the same - compression and flexing of rubber. They are also basically designed for loads in one direction and plane so probably wouldn't be much better than the tyre barriers.

[BDunnell]

Catch fencing does work to slow a car down but it has disadvantages:
1. It can wrap itself around a car necessitating the use of wire cutters to get to a driver
2. Posts can get uprooted and cause severe damage
3. It requires quite considerable depth to allow the fencing to deform
4. Because the fencing stretches rather than breaks the best way for marshalls to get to a driver is through the hole a car has made. This is particularly difficult in the case of fire

And think of the safety car periods we would have if catch fencing was used nowadays!

[Whyzars]

Would you rather they used concrete walls...

:rolleyes:



Tyres are the best option at the moment as they arent solid objects so they will lesson crash forces on a driver plus they can be moved back into position latter on so that the race can continue (not something you could do to easily on a road course with SAFFER barriers).


I'm wondering whether tyres are the best option or if they are the best option for the price.

Schumacher showed that its possible to get buried in a tyre barrier and a similar incident happened in Spain last weekend. If the car had burst into flames then the tyre barrier becomes a tomb for the driver.

I agree that tyres are very effective but if F1 puts its mind to it then a better option could be developed. It all gets down to dollars I guess.

[ShiftingGears]

If the car had burst into flames then the tyre barrier becomes a tomb for the driver.


They'd have marshals with extinguishers nearby.

[Knock-on]

I'm wondering whether tyres are the best option or if they are the best option for the price.

Schumacher showed that its possible to get buried in a tyre barrier and a similar incident happened in Spain last weekend. If the car had burst into flames then the tyre barrier becomes a tomb for the driver.

I agree that tyres are very effective but if F1 puts its mind to it then a better option could be developed. It all gets down to dollars I guess.

Tyres are remarkably effective and yes, it is down to cost.

A 5 meter deep marshmello filled with cavier may be a better option but not cost effective so it's the tyres for the foreseeable future.

Incidently, one of the most dangerous circuits in my opinion is actually Indy which is a Cart circuit I think?

[SteveA]

Indianapolis is an IRL circuit, but I guess you could call it a CART circuit now that CART and IRL are one and the same!

I think the problem with tyres is that they can cause the car to rebound, which can increase wiplash injuries. A better barrier would be one that did not return to its original shape immediately, so that the car is decelarated gradually and comes to a complete stop.

This could be done with some sort of controlled-leakage airbag, or even heavily damped sprung barriers.

[Roamy]

Tyres are remarkably effective and yes, it is down to cost.

A 5 meter deep marshmello filled with cavier may be a better option but not cost effective so it's the tyres for the foreseeable future.

Incidently, one of the most dangerous circuits in my opinion is actually Indy which is a Cart circuit I think?

many of the street circuits imo are quite dangerous. Now at the ovals they are installing the new crush walls so that has help immensely. with the exception of monaco F1 probably has the safest circuits of any racing. It is important to alway try to decrease the angle of which a car can hit. I think Malaysia has a couple of spots that are now so nice.

[Jag_Warrior]

Indy was never a "CART circuit".

Hopefully the FIA will pay attention to Olvey's words, if they've been offered to that body. Under Steve Olvey and Terry Trammell, on track safety was never better in CART. Even when the cars were relatively unsafe (lots of foot and ankle injuries in CART's golden age), Olvey and Trammell's teams were always top shelf.

[Daniel]

For me the biggest problem was the fact that he went under the wall rather than into it.

[Colin_Harvey]

Steve Olvey of Jackson Memorial Hospital in Miami blasted the FIA medical procedures after Heiki Kovalanien's crash Sunday.

A typical NASCAR incident, even with safety workers and an EMT in each truck, and its 6,000 kg size and 6500cc turbodiesel based on a pickup, can treat a driver within 30 seconds usually thanks to rules on how many trucks are required, and the safety workers on jumpseats. The power of those trucks can also be an advantage.

The IRL, like the old CC, uses safety workers in smaller trucks (Honda provides the league trucks except for the 500) and jumpseats.

If NASCAR's procedure or IRL's was used, Heiki would have been treated almost immediately as the ambulance and safety truck would be out within 30 seconds. The Medical Car's tardiness in F1 is one procedure that Olvey is right that should be changed. He'd probably go with the ambulance and safety truck in each series of corners to help and those guys would just go immediately in a crash.

Remember that unlike in American racing, in F1 the safety car is not deployed after every incident on the track. Therefore you can't have the medical car immediately driving out of the pitlane on to the track whilst cars are still racing. Instead the medical car has to wait until the safety car has been deployed and the field are under control behind it.

We don't want F1 to end up like Indycar or Nascar where whenever somebody has a big lead, they throw out a yellow flag to close the field up.

[jso1985]

having doctors and trainend staff on several places around the track would be good.
I just hope "borrowing" good ideas from CART/IRL/NASCAR doesn't lead to the safety car being deployed if a plastic bag is on track...

[Mark]

The marshalls and medical team did an excellent job, it was just unlucky that Heikki crashed on the far side of the track.

There should be no such thing as the 'far' side as far as medical assistance is concerned.

[Bobby_Hamlin]

We don't want F1 to end up like Indycar or Nascar where whenever somebody has a big lead, they throw out a yellow flag to close the field up.

I'm not convinced. I feel that some of the most interesting F1 races in recent years have involved multiple safety car periods.

[ShiftingGears]

I'm not convinced. I feel that some of the most interesting F1 races in recent years have involved multiple safety car periods.

But excitement like that is contrived, and more of a concern that needs to be dealt with in car regulations, and not gimmicks on the track that do not reward the best car/driver combination.

[Knock-on]

having doctors and trainend staff on several places around the track would be good.
I just hope "borrowing" good ideas from CART/IRL/NASCAR doesn't lead to the safety car being deployed if a plastic bag is on track...


There are specially trained people around the track including Marshalls, Fire Marshalls and Medical personnel.

Safety in F1 is very good and is constantly improved.

OK, we don't have Ray Band Aviator, Top Gun Wannabees, flying round the track in their modified Tonka Trucks but we do have a very skilled team of medical personnel that have proved time and time again that their skille, expertise and ability to respond is 2nd to none.

Do not confuse efficiency and professionalism with pomp and showmanship

[Daniel]

There are specially trained people around the track including Marshalls, Fire Marshalls and Medical personnel.

Safety in F1 is very good and is constantly improved.

OK, we don't have Ray Band Aviator, Top Gun Wannabees, flying round the track in their modified Tonka Trucks but we do have a very skilled team of medical personnel that have proved time and time again that their skille, expertise and ability to respond is 2nd to none.

Do not confuse efficiency and professionalism with pomp and showmanship
Wow. Nice generalisation :laugh:

[555-04Q2]

Steve Olvey of Jackson Memorial Hospital in Miami blasted the FIA medical procedures after Heiki Kovalanien's crash Sunday.

"You don't have a lot of time and I think this accident will be investigated thoroughly to see if there's any way to gain access to the driver faster. That is a problem, because if you are unconscious and perhaps not breathing you don't have more than two or three minutes before you get some kind of significant damage. So, that's going to have to be looked into."

A typical NASCAR incident, even with safety workers and an EMT in each truck, and its 6,000 kg size and 6500cc turbodiesel based on a pickup, can treat a driver within 30 seconds usually thanks to rules on how many trucks are required, and the safety workers on jumpseats. The power of those trucks can also be an advantage.

The IRL, like the old CC, uses safety workers in smaller trucks (Honda provides the league trucks except for the 500) and jumpseats.

If NASCAR's procedure or IRL's was used, Heiki would have been treated almost immediately as the ambulance and safety truck would be out within 30 seconds. The Medical Car's tardiness in F1 is one procedure that Olvey is right that should be changed. He'd probably go with the ambulance and safety truck in each series of corners to help and those guys would just go immediately in a crash.

Simple solution. More tracks like Bahrain with large run off areas. Problem and 99% of dangerous crashes solved/prevented.

[ShiftingGears]

Simple solution. More tracks like Bahrain...

Sorry, I like racing circuits not go-kart tracks.

[Knock-on]

There are specially trained people around the track including Marshalls, Fire Marshalls and Medical personnel.

Safety in F1 is very good and is constantly improved.

OK, we don't have Ray Band Aviator, Top Gun Wannabees, flying round the track in their modified Tonka Trucks but we do have a very skilled team of medical personnel that have proved time and time again that their skille, expertise and ability to respond is 2nd to none.

Do not confuse efficiency and professionalism with pomp and showmanship

I'm sorry but I feel this criticism is unjustified.

You have 3 crews in the IRL for incidents. First one on the scene attends the issue and the other 2 with the fall-out. That means that somewhere like Spain which is nearly 3 miles long, they are goint to take up to 2 minutes for the first truck to get there with a medic from the time the vehicles are issued under SC conditions.

Hmmmm, I suggest that a driver choking on his tongue might be rather dead by then.

At the moment, it is very rare for a safty officer not to be there within 60 seconds.

Ohhh, ohhh, basic first aid. Clear airway and stabalise prior to formal investigation by which time the specialists are there.

Hmmmm, I think F1 is pretty good when you look at it like that.

[Daniel]

I'm sorry but I feel this criticism is unjustified.

You have 3 crews in the IRL for incidents. First one on the scene attends the issue and the other 2 with the fall-out. That means that somewhere like Spain which is nearly 3 miles long, they are goint to take up to 2 minutes for the first truck to get there with a medic from the time the vehicles are issued under SC conditions.

Hmmmm, I suggest that a driver choking on his tongue might be rather dead by then.

At the moment, it is very rare for a safty officer not to be there within 60 seconds.

Ohhh, ohhh, basic first aid. Clear airway and stabalise prior to formal investigation by which time the specialists are there.

Hmmmm, I think F1 is pretty good when you look at it like that.
Welcome to the Knock-on vs Knock-on show :p

[Mark]

I've heard of people who could start a fight in an empty room :crazy:

[Knock-on]

Wow. Nice generalisation :laugh:


I'm sorry but I feel this criticism is unjustified.

You have 3 crews in the IRL for incidents. First one on the scene attends the issue and the other 2 with the fall-out. That means that somewhere like Spain which is nearly 3 miles long, they are goint to take up to 2 minutes for the first truck to get there with a medic from the time the vehicles are issued under SC conditions.

Hmmmm, I suggest that a driver choking on his tongue might be rather dead by then.

At the moment, it is very rare for a safty officer not to be there within 60 seconds.

Ohhh, ohhh, basic first aid. Clear airway and stabalise prior to formal investigation by which time the specialists are there.

Hmmmm, I think F1 is pretty good when you look at it like that.

[Daniel]

I'm sorry but I feel this criticism is unjustified.

You have 3 crews in the IRL for incidents. First one on the scene attends the issue and the other 2 with the fall-out. That means that somewhere like Spain which is nearly 3 miles long, they are goint to take up to 2 minutes for the first truck to get there with a medic from the time the vehicles are issued under SC conditions.

Hmmmm, I suggest that a driver choking on his tongue might be rather dead by then.

At the moment, it is very rare for a safty officer not to be there within 60 seconds.

Ohhh, ohhh, basic first aid. Clear airway and stabalise prior to formal investigation by which time the specialists are there.

Hmmmm, I think F1 is pretty good when you look at it like that.
You were the one criticising a safety team for their looks :) Not me.

[Knock-on]

Welcome to the Knock-on vs Knock-on show :p

Ahh, yes. Slight mistake :)

[Daniel]

Ahh, yes. Slight mistake :)
No problem :D

[Knock-on]

You were the one criticising a safety team for their looks :) Not me.


I was trying to make the point that fancy looks and equipment do not necessarily mean more efficient.

We have some of the best Marshalls in the world in the UK and their expertise has saved many a drivers life along with Medics and Fire Marshalls. In the first few minutes of a major crash, there is very little that can be done apart from secure the driver and stabalise. It is only when they are stable that you can begin working on him. By that time, all relevant personnel are in attendance.

[Colin_Harvey]

I'm not convinced. I feel that some of the most interesting F1 races in recent years have involved multiple safety car periods.

What we don't want is the charade of racing of the Indycars where it's really like All-in Wrestling, which is not really the way we go racing, so we don't all want the same cars, the same tyres and the same engines. And when somebody gets a big lead they put a car out to close them all up, that's not racing.

I think Formula 1 is like Heavyweight Boxing, with a World Championship, and Indycar racing is a bit like All-in Wrestling, it suits some people to watch and it's a form of entertainment. But I don't think the drivers get satisfaction out of it, because they know they win races not because they are the best drivers, but because circumstances have been arranged in such a way that they can win.

[Daniel]

I was trying to make the point that fancy looks and equipment do not necessarily mean more efficient.

We have some of the best Marshalls in the world in the UK and their expertise has saved many a drivers life along with Medics and Fire Marshalls. In the first few minutes of a major crash, there is very little that can be done apart from secure the driver and stabalise. It is only when they are stable that you can begin working on him. By that time, all relevant personnel are in attendance.

Fair points :) But I don't think the way it's done in the US harms anyone though :)

[THE_LIBERATOR]

I think the worst case of a driver remaining unattended I've ever seen was at Indy, when Ralf Schumacher had the big incident on the final corner. I can't remember which year.

Just an observation.

[Mikeall]

What if marshalls had run out onto the track and been run over by a car hitting or trying to avoid debris?

[markabilly]

I was trying to make the point that fancy looks and equipment do not necessarily mean more efficient.

We have some of the best Marshalls in the world in the UK and their expertise has saved many a drivers life along with Medics and Fire Marshalls. In the first few minutes of a major crash, there is very little that can be done apart from secure the driver and stabalise. It is only when they are stable that you can begin working on him. By that time, all relevant personnel are in attendance.



What a bunch of nonsense. I sat at indy and wondered just how long it would be before anyone bothered to actually attend to Ralf Schumacher, while Sid rode around the track. Disgusting, stupid and dangerously slow was the response tehn and so it remains now. Old Sid should have been gone 20 years ago........CART, Nasca and IRL response ON ROAD COURSES BLOWS away the old slow butt F1 so-called medical team



Indy was never a "CART circuit".

Hopefully the FIA will pay attention to Olvey's words, if they've been offered to that body. Under Steve Olvey and Terry Trammell, on track safety was never better in CART. Even when the cars were relatively unsafe (lots of foot and ankle injuries in CART's golden age), Olvey and Trammell's teams were always top shelf.
AMEN!! I might add that anyone who thinks they are not that good should look at f1 for an example of how not to do it.

The reason they do not is because of the expense of taking that equipment and personnel around the world to each track---after all it might cut into bernie's profits, so let us just save the cash and hope for the best.



Remember that unlike in American racing, in F1 the safety car is not deployed after every incident on the track. Therefore you can't have the medical car immediately driving out of the pitlane on to the track whilst cars are still racing. Instead the medical car has to wait until the safety car has been deployed and the field are under control behind it.

We don't want F1 to end up like Indycar or Nascar where whenever somebody has a big lead, they throw out a yellow flag to close the field up.



Sure, why spoil the fun to save a life. Makes great cents (as in dollars to bernie



in short, this is how it should be done...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=__ByotKbusU

watch the crash, then time the response.

That was the famous CART/Champcar Accident Response Team, well known around the world for their ability to handle any type of incident, regardless of the type of track the race was on (Oval, Superspeedway, Road Course or Street Track). Established in 1981, its been the gold standard, with many drivers thanking them for being the first on the scene in seconds.


Amen again!!!!

[Bobby_Hamlin]

Blah blah blah

I disagree. Everything always has to be about Bernie Ecclestone with you people.

Well done on going to a Grand Prix and observing from a grandstand.