Will the new Impreza be a dismal failure?

[Ranger]

At the moment, Atkinson is 7 points away from the championship lead in 3rd and is 10 clear of Latvala in 4th. He's clearly looking at the top 3 in the championship with his and the cars current consistency.

HOWEVER...

Am I the only one here who thinks that, given their hit-and-miss (mostly miss) nature over the past few years, current Subaru prosperity is likely to go downhill again when the new car is introduced later this year?

Am I also the only one that thinks they should delay the launch of the new car until next year?

[Foggy]

New one couldn't be worse? Could it :uhoh:

[Buzz Lightyear]

the reason atkinson is only 7 points behind is that loeb crashed, and would have been 12 points ahead. my point is this unless aktinson can win rallys, he is gradually going to slip further behind.

aktinson maybe fit to win rallys as he has started to learn not to crash. he will gradually increase in speed again, practising his new found art of not crashing, but I doubt the combo will be a c4/loeb beater.

[N.O.T]

I think it will slighlty better....but not a winners car.

[SubaruNorway]

Well they won with a new car in 2001 and 2003 so....

[Fischer]

Even if they get a good running car I doubt Solberg and Atkinson can do something against Loeb, Hirvonen and Latvala.

[pettersolberg29]

Why such negativity?

Atkinson is doing a good job, although he has not been at the leaders pace on any rallies yet, but at least he finishes.

Solberg is the complete opposite - Monte Carlo apart, Petter has been setting times almost as fast as the leader, and without bad luck in Argentina and Mexico, and Jordan even, could be second in the championship.

The new car could give Petter the reliability he craves, and Atkinson the speed, so they both improve and become champions!

It could happen ;)

[WRC2006]

Following Hirvonen in last years with Subaru, I didn't expect him to be one day in top flight. Sure he had a speed but how many rallies he did finish?!

I think we should give Chris more time and I am sure if he was given a C4 or a Focus, he would suprise everybody here. Remember guys, driving a Subaru is another fight for him before even thinking fighting with other drivers.

But I am pleased with his learning and he is doing well than Petter who should be doing better than him given the time, money and support he received and still receive from Subaru. Why is always Petter having problems not Chris? Chris is rallying using his head (intelligence) knowing the limit and all the weaknesses of his car. But Petter seems lost in the game.

I think Chris is doing really well compared to the S*** car he has got.

[A.F.F.]

Following Hirvonen in last years with Subaru, I didn't expect him to be one day in top flight. Sure he had a speed but how many rallies he did finish?!

I think we should give Chris more time and I am sure if he was given a C4 or a Focus, he would suprise everybody here. Remember guys, driving a Subaru is another fight for him before even thinking fighting with other drivers.

But I am pleased with his learning and he is doing well than Petter who should be doing better than him given the time, money and support he received and still receive from Subaru. Why is always Petter having problems not Chris? Chris is rallying using his head (intelligence) knowing the limit and all the weaknesses of his car. But Petter seems lost in the game.

I think Chris is doing really well compared to the S*** car he has got.

Very good point.

And for Chris' part I agree so much I can't breath :up:

What comes to Petter it would be interesting to see. Does he still have what it takes or not ? I'd like to believe he still fights for wins.

[bowler]

Am I the only one here who thinks that, given their hit-and-miss (mostly miss) nature over the past few years, current Subaru prosperity is likely to go downhill again when the new car is introduced later this year?

Am I also the only one that thinks they should delay the launch of the new car until next year?

Yes and Yes

[Daniel]

Thing is they're not really missing out on anything with not running the old car. It's not like they're risking ending a winning streak. Personally I think debuting the new car ASAP is a good idea.

[koko0703]

In the article of Japanese rally magazine called WRC Plus, they talk about how Chris doesn't demand THE perfect set-up for his car. As long as the car is set up decently, Chris will drive to get best out of it. On the other hand, Petter likes to set up his car to perfectly match his liking, which often ends up spending so much time setting-up Petter's car instead of testing a major development. Now Chris has more "say" in the team, they say the development work progresses alot faster. So back to the topic of the thread, the new car may not be significant improvement, but I expect Chris to perform as good as right now while Petter may or may not struggle with the introduction of a new Impreza.

[JRodrigues]

Well they won with a new car in 2001 and 2003 so....

And 2000, with the P2000. First rally, first win in Portugal..

[gloomyDAY]

No, I think that the Subaru's will be competitive from the start.

Chris will probably be the new leader of the team once the dust settles.
Petter is a good driver, but not as great as when he won the title.

As I said before....only time will tell!

[tmx]

To state the obvious, Petter and the Subaru is just not in tune, as Loeb is to the C4, it look really clumsy at times, he has to struggle with it. They had to hired Markko to do test. Some suggested that Petter test ability is not great, I don't know and I can't tell, maybe his championship win in 2003 is helped with support from Makinen, but I don't know. I still notice Petter's greater experience when compared to Chris, you don't need an eagle eyes to watch the onboard to see how much smoother and better technique he has compared to Chris 'was', he also write better pacenotes I think, although Chris is really doing good. Just need the right car, so it is good Subaru or Prodrive is delaying it, but my feeling is the same as the original poster, it will improve a bit, but I'm not sure if it can take outright wins, maybe small success and no titles, or by the time they get the title Citroen is already out (2009). Hope they prove me wrong. I have to praise Phil for staying with Petter all this long and concerntrate, I wonder how all this is affecting his motivation aswell.

[Koppomsbo]

Solberg is the complete opposite - Monte Carlo apart, Petter has been setting times almost as fast as the leader, and without bad luck in Argentina and Mexico, and Jordan even, could be second in the championship.





So even the crasch he did was bad luck??

[gloomyDAY]

So even the crasch he did was bad luck??Not luck but lunacy. I heard the note, Phil said it loud and clear, then Petter takes a nose dive into a slow corner and rolls. This was avoidable! Damn, now I'm frustrated because of Petter's shortcomings. The new Subaru better be a panacea or I don't see Petter around for too long.

[Tom206wrc]

Why such negativity?

Atkinson is doing a good job, although he has not been at the leaders pace on any rallies yet, but at least he finishes.

Solberg is the complete opposite - Monte Carlo apart, Petter has been setting times almost as fast as the leader, and without bad luck in Argentina and Mexico, and Jordan even, could be second in the championship.

The new car could give Petter the reliability he craves, and Atkinson the speed, so they both improve and become champions!

It could happen ;)



Can we really consider mechanical failures as "unlucky" ??? :confused:


In this case Suzuki are damn UNLUCKY and not doing bad work on the cars :laugh: :p :

[Ranger]

In the article of Japanese rally magazine called WRC Plus, they talk about how Chris doesn't demand THE perfect set-up for his car. As long as the car is set up decently, Chris will drive to get best out of it. On the other hand, Petter likes to set up his car to perfectly match his liking, which often ends up spending so much time setting-up Petter's car instead of testing a major development. Now Chris has more "say" in the team, they say the development work progresses alot faster. So back to the topic of the thread, the new car may not be significant improvement, but I expect Chris to perform as good as right now while Petter may or may not struggle with the introduction of a new Impreza.

That's very interesting. :up:

I made this thread after an obvious upturn in form after Subaru's several years twiddling their thumbs and having crashes, I wouldn't like to see those days return.

On another note, at which round is the new car meant to debut?

[Viking]

So even the crasch he did was bad luck??

Petter story
"Then, as we were running fastest on SS15, the brake caliper started leaking and we had to ease off. It was so disappointing to go off in the last stage, and that was the end for us. I couldn't slow the car down enough when we came to a sharp right-hand corner after a fast straight. I thought we had enough run-off, but there was a ditch we went into and that was it."

Petter drove slow on Monte and Sweden and got good points, when he try to push the car is falling apart brakes, dampers, electrical, gearboxes, everything :down:

[AndyRAC]

Can we really consider mechanical failures as "unlucky" ??? :confused:


In this case Suzuki are damn UNLUCKY and not doing bad work on the cars :laugh: :p :

Petter is having bad luck now, but rememeber the good luck he had, especially in 2003 when it could be said he reversed into the Championship. Citroen/Loeb got their tyre choices wrong in Corsica and Catalunya - costing him 2 wins, plus the wet conditions which suited Pirellis.

[ShiftingGears]

aktinson maybe fit to win rallys as he has started to learn not to crash. he will gradually increase in speed again, practising his new found art of not crashing, but I doubt the combo will be a c4/loeb beater.

I think it's less about Atko "learning not to crash" and more about Prevot being more compatible with Atko than McNeall.

[Tom206wrc]

I think it's less about Atko "learning not to crash" and more about Prevot being more compatible with Atko than McNeall.


Quite ironic regarding the season Prévot codrove Duval ;)

[Tomi]

Quite ironic regarding the season Prévot codrove Duval ;)

maybe duval was the problem in that car.

[Daniel]

I think it's less about Atko "learning not to crash" and more about Prevot being more compatible with Atko than McNeall.

I agree. I said it all along when McNeall was co-driving. The guy has no rhythm in the way he delivers his notes and his tone isn't the best either.

I agree with Tomi that Duval was the problem in that Xsara.

[jens]

Chris has achieved consistently good results, but what I am afraid of is that even if the new car is quicker, it would be unreliable and Chris would fail to continue scoring good consistent points like he is doing now. In the current state of WRC finishing is more important than just pure speed. There is no doubt that Loeb has been clearly faster than Atko so far this year, but he has had one more retirement and therefore is only 2 points ahead.

Conclusion: Better drive a car, which consistently brings you a 3rd place rather than a car, which finishes in 2nd position in half of the rallies, but retires from the other half.

[jparker]

Thing is they're not really missing out on anything with not running the old car. It's not like they're risking ending a winning streak. Personally I think debuting the new car ASAP is a good idea.

I think it's not about missing anything, it's about getting the job done right.
If they rush the new car development, their struggle may continue.
Of course, if they have (can afford) two development teams working in parallel, then yes, they are not missing much, it may actually help.

[TKM]

Even if they get a good running car I doubt Solberg and Atkinson can do something against Loeb, Hirvonen and Latvala.

Are you serious??? Both drivers have the ability to beat all 3 of those drivers (particularly Hirvonen and Latvala), the only thing holding them back is the POS Subaru keep giving them.

[TKM]

I think we should give Chris more time and I am sure if he was given a C4 or a Focus, he would suprise everybody here. Remember guys, driving a Subaru is another fight for him before even thinking fighting with other drivers.

I think Chris is doing really well compared to the S*** car he has got.
Exactly

[Tom206wrc]

Chris has achieved consistently good results, but what I am afraid of is that even if the new car is quicker, it would be unreliable and Chris would fail to continue scoring good consistent points like he is doing now. In the current state of WRC finishing is more important than just pure speed. There is no doubt that Loeb has been clearly faster than Atko so far this year, but he has had one more retirement and therefore is only 2 points ahead.

Conclusion: Better drive a car, which consistently brings you a 3rd place rather than a car, which finishes in 2nd position in half of the rallies, but retires from the other half.



Won't your countryman Markko Märtin drive the new Subie on some occasion this year ?? :confused:

[grugsticles]

I think the car will be on the speed from the first competitve stage.

The SWRT have spend a wad of cash, a lot of time building/designing/testing/adjusting to get the car back all with Subaru Ajapan oin thier backs.
They have a great test driver in Marco Martin (I still wish he would return :( ), so i cant see how the car can fail.

If anythying, there might be mechanical reliability issues, but as far as speed is concerned the car will be up as a definate rally winner.

[jens]

Won't your countryman Markko Märtin drive the new Subie on some occasion this year ?? :confused:

There have been rumours about his participation in the Finnish rally, but nothing concrete yet. :)

[grugsticles]

There have been rumours about his participation in the Finnish rally, but nothing concrete yet. :)
Now im excited!

[WRC2006]

Chris has achieved consistently good results, but what I am afraid of is that even if the new car is quicker, it would be unreliable and Chris would fail to continue scoring good consistent points like he is doing now. In the current state of WRC finishing is more important than just pure speed. There is no doubt that Loeb has been clearly faster than Atko so far this year, but he has had one more retirement and therefore is only 2 points ahead.

Conclusion: Better drive a car, which consistently brings you a 3rd place rather than a car, which finishes in 2nd position in half of the rallies, but retires from the other half.


Like I said above, I repeat it again, Chris is driving the Subaru Impreza according to the weaknesses of the car. He doesn't push it hard because he knows already that the car will never cope with the pressure. The real example is Petter who crashes almost in every rally while trying to push it hard. Why do you ask him to push the car which break down every time it is pushed on the limit? Better to slow down and score important points for his team.

Remember his main target is to score as much as possible for his boss before thinking on his personal interest. Following this, I think he is doing a brilliant job compared to the car he has.

[Daniel]

There have been rumours about his participation in the Finnish rally, but nothing concrete yet. :)
Hasn't Markko gone on record saying that he doesn't want to drive competitively again?

[Zico]

I think the car will be on the speed from the first competitve stage.

The SWRT have spend a wad of cash, a lot of time building/designing/testing/adjusting to get the car back all with Subaru Ajapan oin thier backs.
They have a great test driver in Marco Martin (I still wish he would return :( ), so i cant see how the car can fail.

If anythying, there might be mechanical reliability issues, but as far as speed is concerned the car will be up as a definate rally winner.

Yep, me too. This is SWRT's chance to address the issues with the old car, I think they will take it with both hands.

[jens]

Why do you ask him to push the car which break down every time it is pushed on the limit? Better to slow down and score important points for his team.


Where did I say this? I'm satisfied with his consistency. :)


Hasn't Markko gone on record saying that he doesn't want to drive competitively again?

That too, but on the other hand - never say never. :p : Those Finnish rally rumours have so far indeed been only rumours and Subaru has officially denied them.

[Torsen]

i'm sort'a under the impression that the new car will be worse ... it probably won't be until the 2009 season that they get all the kinks knocked out.... GO SUBARU!

[Kharts]

I think both Subaru driver's are winning talent and I think Prodrive will probably be making a better car but I'm skeptical on whether the new car will be a winner because of its size/wheelbase etc. I'm no engineer but it seems like the short wheelbase cars (focus/C4/Xsara/206) are winners while all the long ones (EVO/Impreza/307) have struggled in general.

Doesn't the new Imprezza have a longer wheelbase than the current one by something like 10cm? I so badly want them to be winning again but I'm not convinced its going to happen until Subaru corporate can give them a smaller car to work with.

[Daniel]

I think both Subaru driver's are winning talent and I think Prodrive will probably be making a better car but I'm skeptical on whether the new car will be a winner because of its size/wheelbase etc. I'm no engineer but it seems like the short wheelbase cars (focus/C4/Xsara/206) are winners while all the long ones (EVO/Impreza/307) have struggled in general.

Doesn't the new Imprezza have a longer wheelbase than the current one by something like 10cm? I so badly want them to be winning again but I'm not convinced its going to happen until Subaru corporate can give them a smaller car to work with.
A long wheelbase isn't a bad thing.

[WRC2006]

Where did I say this? I'm satisfied with his consistency. :) .


Sorry I misunderstood your comments. You are right in what you said.

[grugsticles]

Its funny how Chris has seemed to be able to drive there Subaru in a tame yet consistant manner and its payed off on the results table.
Petter seems to looking for the raw speed option and to me it seems as though hes being that little bit too rough on the car and it just cant hack it, hence the breakages.

To me that show that Petter is really trying, but perhaps trying too hard. The new car, if all goes well, should allow him to take the pressure off himself, relax a bit and settle back into to his 2003 form... I hope!

[zerodegreec]

The current car is not good enough to keep pace of the C4 and Focus as it stands. Regardless who is driving it (loeb for example). Subaru has obviously had to work hard at keeping the car in the same league as the C4 and Focus. While the C4 and Focus can spend time and resources tweaking the car and making changes that will help when the times get tough.

With the unfortunate position of having a car that is always a little slower or more unreliable you get a unique opportunity to fix your mistakes with insight. You learn more from your mistakes than your success.

Time will tell if the car is really a new generation leap or more of the same. I think the car will come out swinging. And if petta can get a good feel for the car it will be a real contender. But how much money will the team put into it with its lifespan as short as it is with the new rules?

As for the drivers of subaru I think that Chris will fall well below Petter if the car is a winner. Experience and Petter's determination will really make Chris look slow. (not that I like Petta, I like Chris more.)

[janvanvurpa]

I think both Subaru driver's are winning talent and I think Prodrive will probably be making a better car but I'm skeptical on whether the new car will be a winner because of its size/wheelbase etc. I'm no engineer but it seems like the short wheelbase cars (focus/C4/Xsara/206) are winners while all the long ones (EVO/Impreza/307) have struggled in general.

Doesn't the new Imprezza have a longer wheelbase than the current one by something like 10cm? I so badly want them to be winning again but I'm not convinced its going to happen until Subaru corporate can give them a smaller car to work with.

Focus short, and Evo and Impreza long?
First gen Focus was 102.9" or 2613,6mm

New ones are 2640mm

First Gen GC8 Impreza was 2520mm wheelbase
Second Impreza GDB was 2525mm
Next was 2540mm

Early Evo I thru 6 were 2500mm wheelbase
Evo 7 onwards 2625mm

Xsara WRC is 2550mm
C4 is 2608mm


I think you need to look up a bit before calling LONG cars short and short cvars long, so sorry!

[Daniel]

Focus short, and Evo and Impreza long?
First gen Focus was 102.9" or 2613,6mm

New ones are 2640mm

First Gen GC8 Impreza was 2520mm wheelbase
Second Impreza GDB was 2525mm
Next was 2540mm

Early Evo I thru 6 were 2500mm wheelbase
Evo 7 onwards 2625mm

Xsara WRC is 2550mm
C4 is 2608mm


I think you need to look up a bit before calling LONG cars short and short cvars long, so sorry!

Notice all the cars he said were SWB are hatches and the ones he said were LWB are all saloon/coupe cars?

It's funny how often this happens :D

[Zico]

Notice all the cars he said were SWB are hatches and the ones he said were LWB are all saloon/coupe cars?

It's funny how often this happens :D

Yep.. I think its the shorter overhangs that decieve?. If I didnt know, Id have said the same too.

Edit- Are the overhangs shorter on the new Impreza?

[janvanvurpa]

Notice all the cars he said were SWB are hatches and the ones he said were LWB are all saloon/coupe cars?

It's funny how often this happens :D

But nearly everything he said was wrong.
Focus is long, and it looks like a hatch to me
Early Evo and GC8 Subie were short and they sorta seem like saloons you know with a boot and all?

I really don't follow your point.

Or his.

[Daniel]

But nearly everything he said was wrong.
Focus is long, and it looks like a hatch to me
Early Evo and GC8 Subie were short and they sorta seem like saloons you know with a boot and all?

I really don't follow your point.

Or his.

What I meant was people see a saloon and think it's big and that it must have a long wheelbase. Then they see a hatchback and think it must be small and therefore have a small wheelbase :) These assumptions are not necessarily correct which was my point ;)

[janvanvurpa]

Yep.. I think its the shorter overhangs that decieve?. If I didnt know, Id have said the same too.

Edit- Are the overhangs shorter on the new Impreza?

Zico there you're getting closer to what I see differing more: overhang front and rear.

Ford pointed out how effective the old wonderful Lancia Delta intergrale was (97.4" wheelbase, like a GolfII) especially how nearly untouchable on tarmac it was.
That shorter overhang was a key part when the Sierra and Sapphire Cosworths was made shorter from 102.7" whelbase to 100.5 for the Escort Cosworth.
Barely 2.2" wheelbase but well shorter in front and WAAAAAAAAAY shorter in the rear overhang, more than 5 inches shorter in the rear.

The French have been the Champions of maximum internal space for a given model segment for decades by putting the wheels right at the corners and have nearly NO overhang, and it seems to work especially well on tarmac.

The stability coming from longer wheelbase isn't a big deal on WRC or GpA cars because they have fully adjustable suspension links and can set up the car with LOTS, 4+ degrees of castor and even a short wheelbase car can be made stable with enough castor and some toe in.

[janvanvurpa]

What I meant was people see a saloon and think it's big and that it must have a long wheelbase. Then they see a hatchback and think it must be small and therefore have a small wheelbase :) These assumptions are not necessarily correct which was my point ;)


OK yeah. One of my rallycars is a Ford Sierra 4x4 at 102.7" wb and SEVERAL boys with their Fucci have been over to talk suspension or prep and I point out how large their cars are and how having a large car means weight, and they simply cannot believe their cars are longer wheelbase than the Sierra.
Even measuring it for them has left some say "Noooo way, dude, that's not right"

[Daniel]

OK yeah. One of my rallycars is a Ford Sierra 4x4 at 102.7" wb and SEVERAL boys with their Fucci have been over to talk suspension or prep and I point out how large their cars are and how having a large car means weight, and they simply cannot believe their cars are longer wheelbase than the Sierra.
Even measuring it for them has left some say "Noooo way, dude, that's not right"

The tape measure never lies. Unless you're measuring your willy :p


Zico there you're getting closer to what I see differing more: overhang front and rear.

Ford pointed out how effective the old wonderful Lancia Delta intergrale was (97.4" wheelbase, like a GolfII) especially how nearly untouchable on tarmac it was.
That shorter overhang was a key part when the Sierra and Sapphire Cosworths was made shorter from 102.7" whelbase to 100.5 for the Escort Cosworth.
Barely 2.2" wheelbase but well shorter in front and WAAAAAAAAAY shorter in the rear overhang, more than 5 inches shorter in the rear.

The French have been the Champions of maximum internal space for a given model segment for decades by putting the wheels right at the corners and have nearly NO overhang, and it seems to work especially well on tarmac.

The stability coming from longer wheelbase isn't a big deal on WRC or GpA cars because they have fully adjustable suspension links and can set up the car with LOTS, 4+ degrees of castor and even a short wheelbase car can be made stable with enough castor and some toe in.

306 Maxi
206 WRC
205 T16

All cars with very little overhang and all bloody fast on tarmac

All pretty much unbeatable on a rally like Corsica. I think the active diffs on the 206 also helped counter any twitchiness it's SWB gave it. I wonder how well a car like the 206 would have done with a full mechanical setup? I also wonder how the 207 handles on tarmac in comparison with another 100mm or in wheelbase over the 206.

Short overhangs also make a car look squat and aggressive. Important if at least for looking cool in my eyes regardless of the gains to be made :)

Going slightly off topic but I love the short overhang on the rear of the McLaren F1 road car :)
http://www.channel4.com/4car/media/100-greatest/03-large/71-mclaren-f1.jpg

To me the long tail version they did just looks wrong. But it did the business at Le Mans
http://www.mclarenautomotive.com/images/cars/F1GT/F1-GT_Large.jpg

[Buzz Lightyear]

surprise surpise... it looks like the s14 has been delayed

http://translate.google.com/translate?sourceid=navclient&hl=en-GB&u=http%3a%2f%2fwww%2erallye%2dmagazin%2ede%2fr%2fw m%2fd%2fn%2fd%2f2008%2f05%2f14%2fsubaru%2dunter%2d zeitdruck%2findex%2ehtml

[MJW]

I cant access the site you posted a link to but if the delay is a significant delay, i.e. longer than from Greece to Finland, with the new rules regarding S2000+ you have to start asking is there any point in bringing this car out? It has 2009 season before having to be joined in 2010 with the new cars whilst the old WRC cars are penalised and then obsolete in 2011.
By the way Motorsport News in UK today carries a story that Abarth will be joining WRC with a new car complying to teh new rules S2000+

[Viking]

They were refering to this
http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/67407

[BDunnell]

I cant access the site you posted a link to but if the delay is a significant delay, i.e. longer than from Greece to Finland, with the new rules regarding S2000+ you have to start asking is there any point in bringing this car out? It has 2009 season before having to be joined in 2010 with the new cars whilst the old WRC cars are penalised and then obsolete in 2011.

Yes, I think there is, not least because there would be no point in marketing terms in rallying the old-shape car for so long.

[Glee]

DR seams to be optimistic...
http://www.wrc.com/jsp/index.jsp?lnk=101&id=1318&desc=Subaru%20team%20boss%20promises%20big%20chang es%20in%20Greece

[Buzz Lightyear]

DR seams to be optimistic...
http://www.wrc.com/jsp/index.jsp?lnk=101&id=1318&desc=Subaru%20team%20boss%20promises%20big%20chang es%20in%20Greece

big changes? i dont see what will be different, other than the shape and colour of the car. the suspension they complain about is still the same.

[gloomyDAY]

big changes? i dont see what will be different, other than the shape and colour of the car. the suspension they complain about is still the same.Why is that still true with the new model? :confused:

[tmx]

Well in the Italy preview they asked Richard about the damper, but he say there is nothing wrong with it, just need to set up properly with the car, but we will see soon enough.

[Nenukknak]

On SWRT website they say they are still working hard with BOS to find the best solution, in other words BOS needs to come up with something better.

By the way I think the car looks great, definitely the prettiest of the current WRCs. Now only hoping that it will deliver.

[gloomyDAY]

Enough of the fancy talk.
Time to see how this beauty rips!

Read my sig people. Pray along with me.

[Mickey T]

On SWRT website they say they are still working hard with BOS to find the best solution, in other words BOS needs to come up with something better.



richards believes they've isolated (only last week) the damper problem.

he reckons it's the fluid reconstituting itself at a molecular level, which explains why they've had a hard time pinning it down.

at least, that's what he told me on the weekend.

[Buzz Lightyear]

would explain why the subaru usually puts in a good friday performance then goes to bits, as the damper fluid breaks down. surely damper fluid has been fairly well sorted over the years?

[Zico]

richards believes they've isolated (only last week) the damper problem.

he reckons it's the fluid reconstituting itself at a molecular level, which explains why they've had a hard time pinning it down.

at least, that's what he told me on the weekend.

Interesting how the damper problem being resolved co-incides with the launch of the new car.
Blame diversion to get Mr Subaru off his back?... or a genuine technical screw-up of biblical proportions on BOS's side?

If thats true it doesnt say a lot about BOS's quality control... a problem at molecular level?.. thats very difficult to believe unless they were being supplied by a Ford or Citroen owned brake fluid company. ;)

Cynical, who me? :D

[TKM]

That's all well and good, but what does Atko really think of the new car? Come on Mike, spill it.

[Tom206wrc]

It's not a dismal failure until now, but not great great neither :mark:

[Finni]

It's not a dismal failure until now, but not great great neither :mark:

For the moment S14 has not shown any sign of being faster than the old Impreza. You can watch from last year where Petter and Chris after first day.

[Buzz Lightyear]

sort of where I expected. petter gets slight too emotional about things. he is just after saying on WRR preview interview, that is was maybe possible he could win with Acropolis, or at least setting fastest times. OK, give it time, but I expected it to be at least slightly quicker that the old car out of the box.

[Finni]

sort of where I expected. petter gets slight too emotional about things. he is just after saying on WRR preview interview, that is was maybe possible he could win with Acropolis, or at least setting fastest times. OK, give it time, but I expected it to be at least slightly quicker that the old car out of the box.

What I have seen recently good cars are very fast out of the box. For instance C4, Focus. Also previous Impreza won its first race.

[DonJippo]

What I have seen recently good cars are very fast out of the box. For instance C4, Focus. Also previous Impreza won its first race.

Out of box? C4 was developed over a year before first event...would not call that out of box performance.

[MikeD]

http://www.motorline.cc/static/article/images/8/8f7e23014e56f714878ebdb8b89ca01e.jpg

[Buzz Lightyear]

Out of box? C4 was developed over a year before first event...would not call that out of box performance.

then keep it in the box till its ready. no?

[jonkka]

Out of box? C4 was developed over a year before first event...would not call that out of box performance.

What's the least amount of R&D that still counts as out of the box? Six months? Four weeks? A minute? :eek:

[Ranger]

I can only hope that Subaru have something in store for the 10 week break to Finland. On pace alone they are 'moderate' and Atko's car failed to even start day 2.

[Viking]

What I have seen recently good cars are very fast out of the box. For instance C4, Focus. Also previous Impreza won its first race.

Cant remember Focus 06 got a lot of points from its first rally.

[tmx]

I can only hope that Subaru have something in store for the 10 week break to Finland. On pace alone they are 'moderate' and Atko's car failed to even start day 2.

They need to use wires that audiophiles use, maybe it won't burn out.

[Zico]

I can only hope that Subaru have something in store for the 10 week break to Finland. On pace alone they are 'moderate' and Atko's car failed to even start day 2.


Does pace on the Acropolis mean so much? I dont feel its a true reflection on the cars speed capabilities... more to do with daring how hard to push the tyres?

Finland will tell us the truth...

[tmx]

I think the speed has been there on and off, like acropolis last year, the only concern is to get the car to not broke down. Haven't quite achieved that yet.

[Finni]

Cant remember Focus 06 got a lot of points from its first rally.

But it was bloody fast in the hands of mediocre drivers..

[duff]

This rall is certainly not the best test of speed but still the impreza has shown at least the speed of the old car on its very first rally with much developement to come. Plus Petter hasn't been this positive in years which is a good sign.

[koko0703]

I think the first rally for the new Impreza was fairly good. When the rivals are having so much problems, the 2nd place isn't really the indication of the improved performance, but regardless of how you get to the podium, it will definitely give the team and, most importantly, Petter much needed moral boost. This time Chris was the unfortunate one but unless you encounter problems on the stages, you'll never find problem. So hopefully, there is a lesson learned from the first rally both for the team and Chris.

[Finni]

Interesting to see how new Impreza will perform after some more testing. I would say that there is still much work to do in terms of pace. Petter's margin to Loeb really didn't reflect genuine speed-levels as Petter was driving the whole event from better road-position than Loeb.

It is now obvious that new group N Impreza is dissappointment. I wonder if there is all fundamentals right with their basic-car.

[m.lowe]

Excellent result for the new S14 which I have been a fan since I seen the shape of the new car
long may it continue

[Viking]

Driver comments:

Petter
“Ah! This is just incredible! I am so, so pleased. I can’t put it into words!” exclaimed an excitable Solberg. “It is so good to be back here again, and so important. I’m so happy for the team who’ve put in so much work to get this car ready. It’s incredible, I can’t believe it. First time in the new car, second is not bad at all! We knew it would be tough here but to finish second is just great. It’s what everyone has been waiting for. Phil and I, the team, the fans, everybody. This car has so much potential, I mean so much. This is it, we’re coming back!”

Chris
“It’s good to get the first stage win for the new car on its first rally; it’s a good feeling” said Chris Atkinson. “It obviously hasn’t been a good weekend for points for us, but other people have had bad luck this year and we were just unlucky this time. We wanted to see what the car would do and it felt good this morning, which showed in the speed. We can be faster though as there is still more to come. When we get the package just right we’ll be a lot faster still.”

[Woodeye]

I'm still sceptic about the new Subaru even that Petter seems to be happy about the car. Most of the top drivers had problems in this rally and that's part of the reason why he was 2nd in Greece. 2nd is good, but I wonder where he would've finished if Mikko, J-M, Dani and Chris would have had no problems. My guess is positions 5-6, so pretty much those that he have had so far this year. I think the next 2 rallies will tell more about the car.

[gloomyDAY]

I'm still sceptic about the new Subaru even that Petter seems to be happy about the car. Most of the top drivers had problems in this rally and that's part of the reason why he was 2nd in Greece. 2nd is good, but I wonder where he would've finished if Mikko, J-M, Dani and Chris would have had no problems. My guess is positions 5-6, so pretty much those that he have had so far this year. I think the next 2 rallies will tell more about the car.You speak absolute sense!

I thought the same things when the rally was over. I'm happy for Petter's elation, but at the same time I am going to reserve my judgment of the S14 until the end of Finland. Subaru is my favorite team and I want to see both Petter and Chris succeed.

All we need to do is wait just a little more time.

[ARF]

I'm still sceptic about the new Subaru even that Petter seems to be happy about the car. Most of the top drivers had problems in this rally and that's part of the reason why he was 2nd in Greece. 2nd is good, but I wonder where he would've finished if Mikko, J-M, Dani and Chris would have had no problems. My guess is positions 5-6, so pretty much those that he have had so far this year. I think the next 2 rallies will tell more about the car.

But isn't that exactly what says that new subaru is good? Petter didn't have problems!
There is no such thing as a perfect rally where everyone finishes troublefree, somebody always has problems. And if you and your car can avoid problems, then you will finish high. And you certainly cannot underrate that car and driver. Do you also think that Seb is weak because he manages to escape problems? Or why is JML always fast in few first stages and then cocks up? Is he not a mature driver or is it car's fault when the suspension breaks against a rock? :P

[Tomi]

But isn't that exactly what says that new subaru is good? Petter didn't have problems!
There is no such thing as a perfect rally where everyone finishes troublefree, somebody always has problems. And if you and your car can avoid problems, then you will finish high. And you certainly cannot underrate that car and driver. Do you also think that Seb is weak because he manages to escape problems? Or why is JML always fast in few first stages and then cocks up? Is he not a mature driver or is it car's fault when the suspension breaks against a rock? :P

Not really, it tells its a quite strong car, after a few rallies I belive it's time to judge the car more, I think Petter could have done the same result with the old car aswell if he would have been the only one to run without problems.
JM even he is the youngest driver who have won a WRC rally, is for sure not mature enough, but he is getting better all the time.

[jens]

On the first day Subaru seemed to struggle, but seemed to gain more competitiveness later as the potential of the car started to unveil. Good to see Petter achieving a good result after a huge amount of unluck. Surely we can't make final conclusions about the new car yet, but it at least has shown some promise, although it still doesn't seem good enough to challenge Loeb.

[leno]

ok, yes it is to fast to judge if car is competitive-but i think petter change complete driving style; he didnt push without head and risk which is one step closer to victory. Good car or not he must adjust driving to conditions on the road not just drive flat out like formula. And even if car is not good if he belive the car is better i m sure the poudium era begins for him.

[A.F.F.]

When the latter half of the season starts, we'll finally see where new Subaru stands. Rallyes like Acropolis and Turkey are too much x-factors to really say anything. Glad Petter felt good about it though :)

[N.O.T]

the speed isn't there that is for sure.....if the car isn't a winner with such a trememndus starting position and in a rally where we had loads of loose gravel (in ss01 even the group Ns had to sweep some) then i really doubt it can win on true events like finland.

[Halvis]

A pretty god start, good to see Petter smiling again! I just saw the TV coverage on norwegian TV, and in the norwegian interview, he still hinted pretty obvious that there is one more thing that isn't good enough - the suspension! Surprise, surprise.

He didn't say it out in words, but the interviewer asked, Petter declined to say it straight, but it was pretty obvious that it was what he was thinking about.

[Englandsfahrer]

ok, yes it is to fast to judge if car is competitive-but i think petter change complete driving style; he didnt push without head and risk which is one step closer to victory.

He stated in an interview earlier, that with the new car he doesn't have to rag it all the time, like he had to with the old one. If that's true, what sort of times would we have seen, if he was to try to overdrive the car like he's been doing with the old one?

[MJW]

I get the impression that this car's debut in Acropolis was only brought forward after the dismal performance of S12B in Sardinia, Subaru must have thought "what have we got to loose by using the new car" I suspect that what we saw in Greece was not the finished product and that new parts will be available for Finland, maybe that includes dampers......?

[duff]

the speed isn't there that is for sure.....if the car isn't a winner with such a trememndus starting position and in a rally where we had loads of loose gravel (in ss01 even the group Ns had to sweep some) then i really doubt it can win on true events like finland.

Ummm... the first rally in a new car; hardly enough evidence to totally write it off!

For sure we won't know the true potential of the thing until later in the season (I'd say another 3 or 4 rallies), until then its all speculation.

I think the most positive point for subaru is that the drivers seem happy with the car's balance which is something that they haven't said for years.

[ST205GT4]

Definitely to soon to make a judgement about how competitive the car will really be, however it's definitely down on outright performance at the moment.

Great result for Petter but I honestly do believe he could have got the same result in the old car, simply through driving within the limits of the car and through attrition which is how he scored 2nd here. Just as Chris has done at a number of rallies this year.

[N.O.T]

Ummm... the first rally in a new car; hardly enough evidence to totally write it off!

For sure we won't know the true potential of the thing until later in the season (I'd say another 3 or 4 rallies), until then its all speculation.

I think the most positive point for subaru is that the drivers seem happy with the car's balance which is something that they haven't said for years.

depends what your goal is...shall i remind you the debut of the C4 or the evolution of the ford models ???

The way things are now subaru are not a winning team and by the looks of things they will not be for the years to come.....

The debut of the new car was ok compared to the previous model but had nothing to show against the other teams....

The other teams will evolve as well so i think that even if new parts are homologated they will not show any difference because other teams will find something extra as well....

[Ranger]

the speed isn't there that is for sure.....if the car isn't a winner with such a trememndus starting position and in a rally where we had loads of loose gravel (in ss01 even the group Ns had to sweep some) then i really doubt it can win on true events like finland.

Well considering Citroen has never won in Finland, if Subaru could do it (with no Finnish drivers) then it would be quite something! ;)

Although I'll say it again. For whatever reason, it took 3 years for the '06 Impreza platform to look decent, so hopefully that means that progress is possible whatever the starting platform (hopefully quicker progress though).

[Tomi]

Well considering Citroen has never won in Finland, if Subaru could do it (with no Finnish drivers) then it would be quite something! ;)

No but it has been close many times, just 1 flat or something simular and it would have won, but this Subaru wont have a chance no matter who drives it.

[Shrike]

It's not the car its the drivers. Of course it looks slow in the shadow of whatever seb is driving. The Subaru held up fine and if seb was driving it, it would be the fastest car.

[ST205GT4]

What an idiotic comment. Petter has shown in the past that he can beat Loeb with decent equipment.

[gloomyDAY]

It's not the car its the drivers. Of course it looks slow in the shadow of whatever seb is driving. The Subaru held up fine and if seb was driving it, it would be the fastest car.How the hell did you reach that conclusion? :angryfire

I'm guessing your knowledge of Petter's experience is as void as your head.

[TKM]

Obviously a cheese eating surrender monkey

[ProRally]

....
It is now obvious that new group N Impreza is dissappointment. I wonder if there is all fundamentals right with their basic-car.

None of the new shape group N Impreza made it to the end, not the Arai version, not the TMR version and not even to full supported 'N14' version ...

After years of winning PWRC titles, this will be a Mitsu year, at least they are holding back the EvoX untill it really works

[duff]

depends what your goal is...shall i remind you the debut of the C4 or the evolution of the ford models ???

The way things are now subaru are not a winning team and by the looks of things they will not be for the years to come.....

The debut of the new car was ok compared to the previous model but had nothing to show against the other teams....

The other teams will evolve as well so i think that even if new parts are homologated they will not show any difference because other teams will find something extra as well....


Again mr N.O.T you are certainly taking a lot from ONE rally (the roughest rally in years) which I think everyone agrees is not representative of the bulk of the championship and certainly not a rally where the true speed of any car can be shown.
Back to my original point; wait three or four rallies and then its time to START passing judgement.
Sure other teams will continue to evolve, but so will the impreza and it is right at the start of its life. The current impreza is the biggest departure from its previous model in years and, as the drivers admit, it has been rushed into use. How many years did Citroen develope its car before its first rally? and how long has the Focus been developed in a similar form? So if Subaru can be close to these guys, within the next few rallies, wouldn't you say that this could be a positive for them, couldn't there be much better to come? Let be positive people!

Either way, and I say this again, its all speculation at the moment. But I think we should all hope that the car comes good for the sake of the championship.
To be continued...

[DonJippo]

But I think we should all hope that the car comes good for the sake of the championship. To be continued...

For the sake of the championship it would have been good if the new Subaru was fast and reliable...unfortunatelly it seems it's not any faster as the old one even it looks like to be more reliable.

[Halvis]

For the sake of the championship it would have been good if the new Subaru was fast and reliable...unfortunatelly it seems it's not any faster as the old one even it looks like to be more reliable.

I'm quoting you, but this could have gone to many others...

I think you all are way to quick to draw conclusions after just one rally, some forumers already counted it out after one -1- stage! Even if the car has been tested by top drivers, this is the first rally it has competed in. Surely it didn't break the sound barrier, but come on - give it a break, I have no doubt they will make it faster, maybe already in Turkey. In the summer break, they have even more time to address some of the issues that surely will appear in the next few weeks.

It could of course happen that they won't make it, but I wouldn't be surprised if they have a much faster car in Finland. And if you see the times from Greece, they weren't far behind the fastest 2-3 cars.

[Viking]

All I want is for it to be as fast as the C4 and Focus, then the drivers can have a run for it.
Agree on that it is difficult to see how fast it is on this rally, because there where so many different tactics from the drivers but Petter was fastest driver overall on Saturday and was also fastest on the last split on the long stage (maybe hot brakes). Petter says he drove with margin all weekend, I`m not sure.
When Chris were sent out to do some good stagetimes he won the first fast one before he ditched it on the second.
Okey, car has same engine as last 12b so no power gain as yet, also from what I can understand, they tested parts on the last test before the rally that at least Petter meant made a big difference from first test, this parts was not on the car used in the rally.

So overall I am still optimistic.

Ps. Inboard cam shoved us Petters mouth only half open, wait till it go full throttle :D

The patter story is very sad in Monte and Sweden, yes it happens of many technical failures.

[leno]

i just dont understand why they evolve everything just engine and gerabox they have the same as S12b.i think here is a lot of reserve

[Shrike]

Petter has lost what he once had and its yet to be seen if he will get "it" back. He shows bits of it here and there but can't hold onto it anymore. I hope the new car gives him motivation to get his head back into it. I cringed when he lost a lot of time on that one stage for no real reason and then struggled not to blame the new car instead of his own lack of concentration which was surely the reason. I was very excited though to see him benifit from the Ford's and Sordo's misfortunes.

Let's wait and see about the New Impreza, does anyone know about its technical configuration

[leno]

here you have specifications
http://www.scoobyblog.com/2008-06-04/great-debut-of-the-new-impreza-wrc2008

Thanks Leno, from the link i got its configuration, It seems pretty good, i too waiting for its actions