Safety Car rules = joke.

[Ranger]

They are just an absolute joke, and it was proved when Heidfeld's race was comprehensively destroyed by the Safety Car. He was either going to run out of fuel or get a Stop/Go penalty which was going to drop him down to the back of the grid, not to mention that he had to make another pit stop. The same thing unfortunately happened to Barrichello in Australia. These rules make sure that somebody shoots themself in the foot rather than in the head. It is arbitrary and stupid.

It is nothing but a farce, it doesn't make the circuit any safer, and it has got to go.

[Tazio]

Agreed! What’s the equitable resolution?

[Hawkmoon]

Agreed! What’s the equitable resolution?

How about we just go back to the system we had since they introduced safety cars? How many accidents have there been under the safety car? Surely F1 can come up with a way of slowing the cars down at the scene of the accident while leaving the rest of the track free for normal racing speeds?

[gloomyDAY]

Agreed! What’s the equitable resolution?
There was a time when pace cars didn't exist in F1.
Back to the 1970's! :D

Heidfeld must be kicking around some furniture at the BMW chateau.
Maybe this will be figured out before Turkey, just in the nick of time.

[CNR]

i think the team should let it be know to the race officials as to what lap that they intend to stop on so they would know if a car needed to come in.

or hold the car at pit exit for the 10 seconds it it can get out ahead of the safty car or untill the safty car has passed.

[Valve Bounce]

i think the team should let it be know to the race officials as to what lap that they intend to stop on so they would know if a car needed to come in.

or hold the car at pit exit for the 10 seconds it it can get out ahead of the safty car or untill the safty car has passed.

Now that is a good solution. This should be brought up for discussion at the GPDA and then taken up officially with the FIA.

[Tazio]

How about we just go back to the system we had since they introduced safety cars? How many accidents have there been under the safety car? Surely F1 can come up with a way of slowing the cars down at the scene of the accident while leaving the rest of the track free for normal racing speeds?As much as I'd like to see that. I don't think we are realistically going to go back to no safety car IMHO!

[Hawkmoon]

As much as I'd like to see that. I don't think we are realistically going to go back to no safety car IMHO!

I didn't mean they should get rid of the safety car. I mean't that they should get rid of the rule that closes the pits when the safety car is deployed. The rule was introduced last year (I think) because they were worried about drivers racing back to the pits to stop under safety car conditions. The safety car has been around for years without a problem and all-of-a-sudden they start worrying about it.

I think they should leave the pits open. Cars would often pit from behind the safety car anyway so I don't see what the problem is. Surely they can slow the drivers down at the scene of the accident and leave the rest of the track free so drivers can stop under the SC and rejoin at the back of the que.

How many drivers have to get screwed before they do something? I'd hate to be the guy who lost a world title because some other guy chucked his car at a wall 1 lap before you had to pit.

[Tazio]

I didn't mean they should get rid of the safety car. I mean't that they should get rid of the rule that closes the pits when the safety car is deployed. The rule was introduced last year (I think) because they were worried about drivers racing back to the pits to stop under safety car conditions. The safety car has been around for years without a problem and all-of-a-sudden they start worrying about it.

I think they should leave the pits open. Cars would often pit from behind the safety car anyway so I don't see what the problem is. Surely they can slow the drivers down at the scene of the accident and leave the rest of the track free so drivers can stop under the SC and rejoin at the back of the que.

How many drivers have to get screwed before they do something? I'd hate to be the guy who lost a world title because some other guy chucked his car at a wall 1 lap before you had to pit.OK Got ya' :up:

[Daniel]

I proposed something before which was this. When a car leaves the pits or starts the race it has a certain amount of laps worth of fuel in it right? How about some sort of blind system (as in other teams can't see it but race control can) whereby the teams say what lap their drivers need to come in on the basis of fuel. So say for instance Heidfeld has 17 laps of fuel. The team say he'll be coming in on lap 17 and if the safety car comes out on lap 16 then Heidfeld can come in on lap 17 and pit without penalty. Will stop all the drivers diving for the pits yet will stop the inevitable diving for the pits that they want to eliminate.

I can't see any solution other than that or just not having this dumb rule at all.

[F1boat]

This rule was stupid in Champ Car and it is as silly in F-1. I dislike it immensely.

[seppefan]

Watched the Kansas IRL race last night, when the pits are closed drivers are allowed to pit for a one second stop to prevent them from running out of fuel. Seemed a good idea in that the penalty is not then given. Room to cheat in the amount of fuel put in but that can be easliy managed with a one second fuel allowance fix on the pump. So none of these unfair penalties.

[F1boat]

This is a good idea from the IRL.

[ioan]

They are just an absolute joke, and it was proved when Heidfeld's race was comprehensively destroyed by the Safety Car. He was either going to run out of fuel or get a Stop/Go penalty which was going to drop him down to the back of the grid, not to mention that he had to make another pit stop. The same thing unfortunately happened to Barrichello in Australia. These rules make sure that somebody shoots themself in the foot rather than in the head. It is arbitrary and stupid.

It is nothing but a farce, it doesn't make the circuit any safer, and it has got to go.

:up:

[Valve Bounce]

I proposed something before which was this. When a car leaves the pits or starts the race it has a certain amount of laps worth of fuel in it right? How about some sort of blind system (as in other teams can't see it but race control can) whereby the teams say what lap their drivers need to come in on the basis of fuel. So say for instance Heidfeld has 17 laps of fuel. The team say he'll be coming in on lap 17 and if the safety car comes out on lap 16 then Heidfeld can come in on lap 17 and pit without penalty. Will stop all the drivers diving for the pits yet will stop the inevitable diving for the pits that they want to eliminate.

I can't see any solution other than that or just not having this dumb rule at all.

Sorry!! too logical!! ain't going to happen!!

[BDunnell]

I didn't mean they should get rid of the safety car. I mean't that they should get rid of the rule that closes the pits when the safety car is deployed. The rule was introduced last year (I think) because they were worried about drivers racing back to the pits to stop under safety car conditions. The safety car has been around for years without a problem and all-of-a-sudden they start worrying about it.

I think they should leave the pits open. Cars would often pit from behind the safety car anyway so I don't see what the problem is. Surely they can slow the drivers down at the scene of the accident and leave the rest of the track free so drivers can stop under the SC and rejoin at the back of the que.

How many drivers have to get screwed before they do something? I'd hate to be the guy who lost a world title because some other guy chucked his car at a wall 1 lap before you had to pit.

I couldn't agree more. The 'solutions' about nominating a lap on which to pit are far too complicated and could easily bring about the same sort of problem if the conditions change.

[Valve Bounce]

Well, the team owners are already discussing to bring about a solution: http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/66978
Of course, they have to rely on Max to come up with something, as Max still holds the whip hand for rule changes.

[Mark]

They did mention a solution a few years ago whereby race control could effectively 'turn down' all the cars remotely. Now I don't think we need that sort of thing but how about a solution where for the first x number of laps under the safety car, cars are limited (in the same way a pit speed limits) to say 30mph, thus stopping them from 'racing' back to the pits.

[nigelred5]

I don't like the closed pit rules in any series. If the electronic scoring can't keep up, then hire better programmers. That's why the closed pits started in most racing. If you have workers on course, it should be FCY and safety car. Pit speeds should be ever further limited under FCY by say an additional 20% for safety reasons.


IMHO, Things are too complicated as it is. They should simply close the pits for only the amount of time it takes to get the safety car and medical car on track or no pits for the first lap under safety car. Once the SC collects the field, the pit sould open and anyone that wants to pit should be allowed to pit. No waiting for everyone to pit to release the SC either. You get stuck trying to sneak in a late stop under yellow, oh well, you win some and you loose some.
at the least, If a car needs fuel, fine, come in, fuel and you hold the car to the end of the line. No tires, no mechanical adjustments, nothing but fuel. Lollipop man and the re-fueller. No one else. That simple. If they need tires, then they come back in under green.

IMHO, they need to start with elimination of 3/4 of the personnell roaming around in pit lane during the event. There is no need for so many people in pit lane and it would be far safer. I still argue that F1 should get rid of the idiotic 1 pit crew per team situation. They should limit the personnel to 7 or maybe 8 persons per car and run a crew for each car. There's usually what, 16-18 people working on the car during the average stop? Idiotic. 3 men per corner just to change the tires? Eliminate the pressurized fuel delivery in favor of a gravity fed system and everything is safer, slower and you need less safety precautions. Split the pit team in half, add a couple more air guns and a second fuelling rig. Spare me the cost arguement, they spend more on hospitality every weekend than the extra equipment would cost and they already have the personnel. It gets rid of all the stupid, controversial team fuel strategies having to accomodate 2 cars with one team.

F1 could certainly learn from American racing when it comes to pit lane rules. and not the NASCAR rules either. They are just as bad if not worse.

[Garry Walker]

I said before the current SC rules were introduced that these rules are moronic and embarrassing and create artificial "racing."

Every idea about nominating a lap when to pit or whatever, all should be ignored and the old SC rules be brought back. At once.
So far this year Kovalainen and Heidfeld have been screwed over really bad by this nonsense, last year Alonso and both Ferraris suffered due to it. Idiotic rules.

[airshifter]

There are a lot of solutions to the problem, but none being used.

They could report "windows" for pitting upon each stop. Cars within those pit windows could pit without penalty. Or better yet have a way for race control to look at telemetry when requested, and any car with less than XX kilos of fuel can pit without penalty. The weight of remaining fuel could be adjusted per each track or a set standard. That way nobody gets a penalty when pitting to avoid running out of fuel.

The timing of the open and closed pit are going to keep screwing up teams until they fix it, and it's easy to fix.

[truefan72]

i think the team should let it be know to the race officials as to what lap that they intend to stop on so they would know if a car needed to come in.

or hold the car at pit exit for the 10 seconds it it can get out ahead of the safty car or untill the safty car has passed.

excellent suggestion

they should submit a the list prior to the start
and then each time ater thept stop indicating the next time they intend to get in.

No emails, just a form on a card handed to racontrol immediately.

[Garry Walker]

There are a lot of solutions to the problem, but none being used.

They could report "windows" for pitting upon each stop. Cars within those pit windows could pit without penalty. Or better yet have a way for race control to look at telemetry when requested, and any car with less than XX kilos of fuel can pit without penalty. The weight of remaining fuel could be adjusted per each track or a set standard. That way nobody gets a penalty when pitting to avoid running out of fuel.

The timing of the open and closed pit are going to keep screwing up teams until they fix it, and it's easy to fix.

That too would be artificial, unfair and dare I say, stupid. It would also lead to problems.

The rule must be abolished, because it is stupid.

[Nikki Katz]

I agree with what seems to be everyone. I don't think that there was really any need to bring in this rule in the first place. The only time I can think it might have helped was the Alonso / Webber accident (Brazil 2003 was it?). But then Alonso was going flat out under double waved yellows, couldn't they just have punish him for that as a deterrent?
All other accidents behind the safety car have been properly behind the safety car as far as I remember, and would happen under the new rules as well as the old. I think that the Vettel / Webber incident last year shows this. This rule just seems to be in place to penalise people who are due to pit around the time of an accident.

[PSfan]

I'm not sure why the suggestion of teams "reporting" their pit strategies to the FIA would help in the least bit. Hate to see a driver lose out because of the safety car, but it would be equally bad if a car won because he "lucked" out and got to pit while the race leader was stuck behind the sc.

I think, while not perfect, IRL's rule that allows a splash of fuel works, another alternative would be that each team has to have a "sc" reserve tank, that can only be used during SC periods.

[Ghostwalker]

i think that during y-days occasions, double waving y-flags would have been enough possible in combination with a speedlimit for that section.

[TMorel]

My vote would be to ditch the safety car completely, and teach the drivers to obey the flags - and I don't mean a token effort of lifting slightly then getting back on the gas again.

[BDunnell]

I said before the current SC rules were introduced that these rules are moronic and embarrassing and create artificial "racing."

In truth, they haven't even done that. I can't think of any instances in which 'racing' has occurred as a result of the new rule. Neither has it improved safety in the slightest. The FIA has to think again, and it shouldn't even consider all these other ideas. There was nothing wrong with the rule as it was.

[TioWoody]

FCY's suck. IMHO they were created to make for closer racing in some American series - bunch up the pack. Gentilozzi destroyed the Trans-Am series when he introduced the concept of "Competition Yellows" just to allow the back markers catch up.

The solution: A new flag that says to really slow down - and that backed by track timing equipment to enforce the "real" slow down! Right now with FCY's the guys still speed around the track - right through - the accident. Nothing is gained until the third or fourth lap of FCY. Pointless.

[wmcot]

How about this - since all cars have a standard ECU, when there is a serious full course yellow, race control gives the drivers a 5-10 second warning and then presses a button engaging the pitlane speed limiter on all cars? Once the safety car picks up the leader, the speed limiters are shut off. This would eliminate the need to close the pits since nobody would be speeding around toward the pits.

[Valve Bounce]

My vote would be to ditch the safety car completely, and teach the drivers to obey the flags - and I don't mean a token effort of lifting slightly then getting back on the gas again.

Easier said than done. Some drivers would obey more diligently and slow right down while others would barely lift off.

I like Mark's idea and electronically control the speed of the cars. This can be done quite easily and cars which have built up a lead would maintain that lead.

That would make the SC superfluous.

But I think this would be too logical and too easy - ain't gonna happen.

[tinchote]

This is one more example of the incredible stupidity of many of the current rules.

If they can enforce a speed in the whole pitlane, they could for example enforce a certain speed on one of the three sectors. So, if the accident is in sector 2, a certain (pre-established) speed limit is set for sector 2; anybody who does sector 2 in less than the pre-established time gets an automatic stop-and-go penalty. It's really really easy, because they don't really need to measure the car speed, but only use the current timing system.

[Tazio]

This is one more example of the incredible stupidity of many of the current rules.

If they can enforce a speed in the whole pitlane, they could for example enforce a certain speed on one of the three sectors. So, if the accident is in sector 2, a certain (pre-established) speed limit is set for sector 2; anybody who does sector 2 in less than the pre-established time gets an automatic stop-and-go penalty. It's really really easy, because they don't really need to measure the car speed, but only use the current timing system.

Very good tinch' :up:

[Valve Bounce]

This is one more example of the incredible stupidity of many of the current rules.

If they can enforce a speed in the whole pitlane, they could for example enforce a certain speed on one of the three sectors. So, if the accident is in sector 2, a certain (pre-established) speed limit is set for sector 2; anybody who does sector 2 in less than the pre-established time gets an automatic stop-and-go penalty. It's really really easy, because they don't really need to measure the car speed, but only use the current timing system.

It's even more simple than that: the car's maximum speed through that sector can be governed eleectronically by rce control. So all they have to do is for race control to inform each team of its intentions and enforce the slowdown within seconds. This is a helluva lot safer and quicker than deploying the safety car.

[aryan]

The safety car rule is fine IMO

Just don't run on fumes to get that extra 0.2... if you let your car run that light knowing that a SC can jeopardise your whole race... your at fault and no one else...

[aryan]

How about this - since all cars have a standard ECU, when there is a serious full course yellow, race control gives the drivers a 5-10 second warning and then presses a button engaging the pitlane speed limiter on all cars? Once the safety car picks up the leader, the speed limiters are shut off. This would eliminate the need to close the pits since nobody would be speeding around toward the pits.

That can be dangerous if the car's radio isn't working (which happens quite a lot) and he driving is doing 150+ mph to suddenly find himself with an electronic break reducing his speed to 80 kph.

He will surely spin...

[Valve Bounce]

That can be dangerous if the car's radio isn't working (which happens quite a lot) and he driving is doing 150+ mph to suddenly find himself with an electronic break reducing his speed to 80 kph.

He will surely spin...

Singapore is going to have a new type of lighting display for their flag signals during the night race. I suppose this type of matrix of flashing lights, together with waved flags at the corner before an accident scene would mandate that all drivers slow down to a sensible speed (say 80 KPH or even slower or even a total stop if necessary) before they reach the accident scene. You don't want drivers to be running at 150 + MPH if some debris or even a busted up car is lying in the middle of the road.

[maxu05]

Heres an idea. With all the technology that the cars have, perhaps every cars dash system could have a yellow and red flag that lights up on it in the case of a yellow or red flag. This way, in the heat of battle, each driver entering a sector, would see a yellow flag flashing on his dash board. After the light flashes, the driver will know that he has 5 to 10 seconds to decelerate, before a speed limiter cuts in.This would enable all of the drivers to be aware that there is a caution, and to allow them to prepare to slow and avoid a crash.

[edv]

How about another wacky idea...Each car gets an emergency fuel bladder (4 or 5 Litres).
When SC is deployed, Race Control issues command to all ECUs to discharge the reserve fuel into main tanks.
Teams have no ECU access to the reserve fuel, which otherwise acts as ballast.

[Hawkmoon]

I can't believe all the complicated ideas that people come up with to solve a simple problem.

The problem is the closure of the pits. The solution is don't close the bloody pits! Slow the cars down at the scene of the accident if you must but the rest of the track is safe so let them do whatever bloody speed they wish on the rest of the track.

The pitlane is the slowest part of the circuit because of the speed limit and therefore it's arguably the safest place on the track. It's also the only place the cars aren't allowed to be when somebody has an accident.

Make the drivers hit the pitlane speed limiter at the flag station before the accident and only release it when they get to the flag station after the accident. That way drivers don't get screwed like Heidfeld, teams can still use safety car periods strategically, and the danger presented by a crashed car and marshalls on the circuit is minimised.

[ArrowsFA1]

Safety car regulations look unlikely to be changed in the near future despite teams continuing calls for a swift shake-up to the current rules.
http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/67018

[ShiftingGears]

Did Max okay this rule to begin with?

[BobbyC]

The IRL also uses a yellow light system on the dashboards during safety car sessions, which works well during the night races.

NASCAR has a penalty system for pitting before pit lane is open -- just move to the rear of the field on the restart, no 30-second penalty (it takes about 30 seconds for a Cup car to pass down pit lane) for pitting too early. Teams who are involved in safety car situations or need severe service will often accept that penalty in order to do more work.

So if that is used in F1, a car can dive down pit lane when it is closed, do the fuel, tyre, and make additional adjustments during this "wrong" time. When the one to go signal is given, they can come back on pit road to make more adjustments as they simply wait to jump to the end of the field for the ensuing restart. One possible exception would be to be lined up before the wave-by cars.

That's it. There is no other penalty. Teams often accept this penalty to do repair work that is severe.

[ShiftingGears]

I can't believe all the complicated ideas that people come up with to solve a simple problem.

The problem is the closure of the pits. The solution is don't close the bloody pits! Slow the cars down at the scene of the accident if you must but the rest of the track is safe so let them do whatever bloody speed they wish on the rest of the track.

The pitlane is the slowest part of the circuit because of the speed limit and therefore it's arguably the safest place on the track. It's also the only place the cars aren't allowed to be when somebody has an accident.

Make the drivers hit the pitlane speed limiter at the flag station before the accident and only release it when they get to the flag station after the accident. That way drivers don't get screwed like Heidfeld, teams can still use safety car periods strategically, and the danger presented by a crashed car and marshalls on the circuit is minimised.

All very good points. The only potential problem is how fine the drivers would leave their braking before the flag area.

[Tazio]

Here are some opinions from those who count!
http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/67018

"That got discussed at the SWG a couple of days ago, Wednesday I think, and there is no change on that," said Michael. "I would be surprised if it is changed.

"Basically it has come up again now because some people have been affected recently. In Montreal last year McLaren and Williams were the first people to get nailed with the SC rules, with Rosberg and Alonso, and did anyone care then except for Williams and McLaren?

"Frank (Williams) made a big fuss then and I don't know if Ron said anything or not, but no one is interested in changing it.

[jens]

I can't understand, why should something, what is working, be changed?! Cars are "racing" back to the pits... and so what? I can't recall any other incidents besides that Alonso accident in 2003 in Brazil either and even that was a communication error as much as I remember, because all the other drivers managed to slow down and get around the debris just fine. Even if drivers are 'racing' back to the pits, then I believe they have enough brains to be more careful in area(s), where the car wreckage lies. FIA sees a problem in something, where there actually isn't a problem - instead of this they create a problem. Awesome. :rolleyes:

Oh, and Monaco Grand Prix is coming soon - I am not going to predict the results. :rolleyes: With some miracle we didn't have a SC session last year at Monaco, but this year we have three street circuits and very possibly we'll see a SC appearance in at least one of them, so prepare to be ready to see a ranking by the end of the race, which is determined by luck, not performance!

In Spain most of the front runners were lucky that SC came out right after their pitstops and besides Heidfeld nobody lost. Imagine, what the results would have been, if Heikki had crashed out on Lap17... Hard to imagine, eh?

[BDunnell]

I can't understand, why should something, what is working, be changed?! Cars are "racing" back to the pits... and so what? I can't recall any other incidents besides that Alonso accident in 2003 in Brazil either and even that was a communication error as much as I remember, because all the other drivers managed to slow down and get around the debris just fine. Even if drivers are 'racing' back to the pits, then I believe they have enough brains to be more careful in area(s), where the car wreckage lies. FIA sees a problem in something, where there actually isn't a problem - instead of this they create a problem. Awesome. :rolleyes:

Oh, and Monaco Grand Prix is coming soon - I am not going to predict the results. :rolleyes: With some miracle we didn't have a SC session last year at Monaco, but this year we have three street circuits and very possibly we'll see a SC appearance in at least one of them, so prepare to be ready to see a ranking by the end of the race, which is determined by luck, not performance!

In Spain most of the front runners were lucky that SC came out right after their pitstops and besides Heidfeld nobody lost. Imagine, what the results would have been, if Heikki had crashed out on Lap17... Hard to imagine, eh?

I couldn't agree more. :up: There was simply no need for any alterations to the old safety car arrangements, and I find the ideas of 'turning the cars down', etc, rather worrying.

[markabilly]

Actually i have always thought that the safety car does not really improve the situation except for the group directly behind the car once they bunch up.

Even when pits are open or closed, the cars behind the group continue to race around the track until they catch the group and then slow down.

So closing the pits is probably a very good idea as otherwise there is no incentive except to go as fast as possible until one is bunched up behind the car, esp. not only before making the pit stop, but then after making the pit stop.

So far no one has made a better suggestion as to this......otherwise why even bother with the safety car--if the wreck is bad, stop the race, and let the cars restart from the pit exit, with the same gap as the last lap timing showed them, after the wreck has been cleared.

[Valve Bounce]

All very good points. The only potential problem is how fine the drivers would leave their braking before the flag area.

Same as for any corner, I suppose; although if DC is in front of some guys, then they might leave their braking a little later..............................

[Valve Bounce]

This is important: The worst thing that we can do in Formula One now is to make a change and then suddenly realise that we've changed it for the worse and then you get lost."

I think most of the teams will dither and fart around until somebody fighting for the championship lead or WCC title is affected. If Kimi's championship lead is lost, you can bet Ferrari will be jumping up and down; and if this happened to Hammi, the entire Pommy media would go apeshyte, Martin and James Allen would go bananas, but then Ferrari would just say it's fair and affects everyone the same.

Let's put it this way, if both Ferraris had to come in for fuel last weekend during the safety car period and were subsequently penalised and lost out, you can bet the rule would be changed by today!!

[Tazio]

Let's put it this way, if both Ferraris had to come in for fuel last weekend during the safety car period and were subsequently penalised and lost out, you can bet the rule would be changed by today!!

:rolleyes:

[jso1985]

So far no one has made a better suggestion as to this......otherwise why even bother with the safety car--if the wreck is bad, stop the race, and let the cars restart from the pit exit, with the same gap as the last lap timing showed them, after the wreck has been cleared.

I certainly don't like the idea that(let's say) Alonso is 2 secs ahead of Hamilton but due "creative" timing due the race being stopped he's actually 3 secs behind... talk about a new way of overtaking...

I think Safety Cars work well, they let the race keep going and are a great safety addition, when there's lot's of people working on the track you just can't ask racers to "slow down".
But the pit closure rule is bloody stupid. if someone pits then he/she should be forced to catch up the group at a limited speed

[jso1985]

The IRL also uses a yellow light system on the dashboards during safety car sessions, which works well during the night races.

NASCAR has a penalty system for pitting before pit lane is open -- just move to the rear of the field on the restart, no 30-second penalty (it takes about 30 seconds for a Cup car to pass down pit lane) for pitting too early. Teams who are involved in safety car situations or need severe service will often accept that penalty in order to do more work.

So if that is used in F1, a car can dive down pit lane when it is closed, do the fuel, tyre, and make additional adjustments during this "wrong" time. When the one to go signal is given, they can come back on pit road to make more adjustments as they simply wait to jump to the end of the field for the ensuing restart. One possible exception would be to be lined up before the wave-by cars.

That's it. There is no other penalty. Teams often accept this penalty to do repair work that is severe.

that wouldn't change much in F1, being sent to the back of the grid is as bad as a penalty

[Garry Walker]

In truth, they haven't even done that. I can't think of any instances in which 'racing' has occurred as a result of the new rule.
Well, the great rules ruined Kovalainens race at Australia and got him at the back of the order in the race. How fun was that? That`s what real racing fans want. Not the best dicing out for the lead.



Neither has it improved safety in the slightest. The FIA has to think again, and it shouldn't even consider all these other ideas. There was nothing wrong with the rule as it was.
What you are forgetting is that what you say will be laughed at by FIA, because it actually makes sense and would get the support of every normal racing fan.


To be honest, I am shocked such a rule was okayed by the teams and FIA. It is completely absurd, it just baffles me. When I was 9 and playing games with my friends, we managed to come up with much sensible rules.

[Garry Walker]

I can't understand, why should something, what is working, be changed?! Cars are "racing" back to the pits... and so what? I can't recall any other incidents besides that Alonso accident in 2003 in Brazil either and even that was a communication error as much as I remember, because all the other drivers managed to slow down and get around the debris just fine. Even if drivers are 'racing' back to the pits, then I believe they have enough brains to be more careful in area(s), where the car wreckage lies. FIA sees a problem in something, where there actually isn't a problem - instead of this they create a problem. Awesome. :rolleyes:

Oh, and Monaco Grand Prix is coming soon - I am not going to predict the results. :rolleyes: With some miracle we didn't have a SC session last year at Monaco, but this year we have three street circuits and very possibly we'll see a SC appearance in at least one of them, so prepare to be ready to see a ranking by the end of the race, which is determined by luck, not performance!

In Spain most of the front runners were lucky that SC came out right after their pitstops and besides Heidfeld nobody lost. Imagine, what the results would have been, if Heikki had crashed out on Lap17... Hard to imagine, eh?

I can only give a thumbs up for that post. I completely agree

Let`s hope this rule will destroy the race at Monaco and cause a complete joke, maybe then they will change idiocy.

[Knock-on]

This is important: The worst thing that we can do in Formula One now is to make a change and then suddenly realise that we've changed it for the worse and then you get lost."

I think most of the teams will dither and fart around until somebody fighting for the championship lead or WCC title is affected. If Kimi's championship lead is lost, you can bet Ferrari will be jumping up and down; and if this happened to Hammi, the entire Pommy media would go apeshyte, Martin and James Allen would go bananas, but then Ferrari would just say it's fair and affects everyone the same.

Let's put it this way, if both Ferraris had to come in for fuel last weekend during the safety car period and were subsequently penalised and lost out, you can bet the rule would be changed by today!!

What I was thinking too. Imagine if the SC had come out just before the Ferrari pit window. It would have ruined their race and given Mclaren an undeserved win.

Mind you, it wouldn't have stopped some people blaming McLaren for doing it on purpose to gift Hammy a win lol

The rule is unfair. I see no problem with drivers pitting under SC. It's part of a evolving strategy during the race similar to getting light rain and gambleing whether to change tyres.

[dc10]

Have read all the comments with interest. I think many suggestions are far too complicated to be enforced.
IMO the safety car is fine and should stay - it is afterall for the safety of both drivers and marshalls etc. The pits should remain open but each team can only pit one car under SC period, thus preventing a total mad dash and queuing up in the pit lane. If they pit both cars, they get heavily penalised. :idea:

[BDunnell]

Have read all the comments with interest. I think many suggestions are far too complicated to be enforced.
IMO the safety car is fine and should stay - it is afterall for the safety of both drivers and marshalls etc. The pits should remain open but each team can only pit one car under SC period, thus preventing a total mad dash and queuing up in the pit lane. If they pit both cars, they get heavily penalised. :idea:

But why shouldn't both cars be able to pit under the SC, or do you mean allowing one car from each team into the pits at a time? To be honest, those rare occasions when team-mates have queued up in the pits have never caused enough of a hazard to require a new rule, in my view.

[BDunnell]

The rule is unfair. I see no problem with drivers pitting under SC. It's part of a evolving strategy during the race similar to getting light rain and gambleing whether to change tyres.

Of course, the really stupid situation would be rain (but not heavy enough to cause an SC deployment or a race stoppage) starting to fall during an SC period, but the SC then coming in before the pit lane opened, forcing everybody to do a lap on the wrong tyres before pitting. Then you would have exactly the chaos in the pit lane that the rule is intended to avoid.

[dc10]

No, I meant 1 at a time or per lap.
I dont actually see anything wrong with pre-present day scenario - thought it added to excitement everyone jockeying for position behind SC.

[airshifter]

That too would be artificial, unfair and dare I say, stupid. It would also lead to problems.

The rule must be abolished, because it is stupid.

Which part or all of the rule?

I don't think they should close the pits personally, but on some tracks I think the exit lights are a good idea. With electronic timing aids, maybe they could work out better where a driver gets back into the pack coming out of the pits.

I think it's worse to have a driver incur a penalty just because they had no idea when the SC was coming out and were racing with their fuel load based on the strategy of the team.

[Garry Walker]

Rumours are that there will be a change in rules for Monaco GP.

[PSfan]

Well I hope they don't change it to drastically. maybe allow cars in while pit is closed, but allow either repair damage/change tires, or add fuel, but not both (I believe this is how Bourdais managed points in the Australia coming in while pit lane was closed to change only tires, allowing him to run only one lap on the less desirable tires...)

I also hope the re-evaluate the dq for running the red light at end of pit road during a race, that still seems extreme to me.

However, on a side note (and maybe a topic that should be best for history and nostagia) I think Massa and Fisi got screwed in Montreal as pit lane according to the regulations was suppose to be green:

according to the regs: 40.11 Subject to the requirements of 40.6 above, whilst the safety car is in operation, competing cars may enter the pit lane, but may only rejoin the track when the green light at the end of the pit lane is on. It will be on at all times except when the safety car and the line of cars following it are about to pass or are passing the pit exit. A car rejoining the track must proceed at an appropriate speed until it reaches the end of the line of cars behind the safety car.

and now to quote myself from the subject a year ago:


But to illustrate my previous points, I've taken a few screen caps from my pvr, they are crappy, but oh well:

http://www.illucid.org/Upload/massaexit.jpg

In this image we have Massa clearly coming down pit lane while the strangling RBR (at least thats what I think it is by the image, wasn't much clearer on my 27inch tv...) cruises by the pit lane exit... So there wasn't much need for the red light in the first place...


So where is the safety car, or line of cars? it was a single car, therefor according to the regs, the light is suppose to be green!!!

there I got to vent again about something from a year ago... Man I need a hobby :p :

[woody2goody]

This is important: [b]Let's put it this way, if both Ferraris had to come in for fuel last weekend during the safety car period and were subsequently penalised and lost out, you can bet the rule would be changed by today!!

Yeah, this is probably true, but nobody seems to give a damn that Heidfeld is challenging for the championship. Just like they dished out the punishment to Rubens in Australia. Poor guy hadn't scored a point for over a year.

I know sentiment or championship position shouldn't let guys off, but the rule should be scrapped.

In any event, one way or another everyone will come into the pits, just one lap later. We wouldn't have had great races like Britain 2003 without the old safety car rules.

[Garry Walker]

Yeah, this is probably true, but nobody seems to give a damn that Heidfeld is challenging for the championship. .
:rotflmao:
He isn`t, he is getting completely beaten by Kubica.

[Bleu]

Well I hope they don't change it to drastically. maybe allow cars in while pit is closed, but allow either repair damage/change tires, or add fuel, but not both (I believe this is how Bourdais managed points in the Australia coming in while pit lane was closed to change only tires, allowing him to run only one lap on the less desirable tires...)

I also hope the re-evaluate the dq for running the red light at end of pit road during a race, that still seems extreme to me.

However, on a side note (and maybe a topic that should be best for history and nostagia) I think Massa and Fisi got screwed in Montreal as pit lane according to the regulations was suppose to be green:

according to the regs: 40.11 Subject to the requirements of 40.6 above, whilst the safety car is in operation, competing cars may enter the pit lane, but may only rejoin the track when the green light at the end of the pit lane is on. It will be on at all times except when the safety car and the line of cars following it are about to pass or are passing the pit exit. A car rejoining the track must proceed at an appropriate speed until it reaches the end of the line of cars behind the safety car.

and now to quote myself from the subject a year ago:



So where is the safety car, or line of cars? it was a single car, therefor according to the regs, the light is suppose to be green!!!

there I got to vent again about something from a year ago... Man I need a hobby :p :

The car you can see there (Webber's Red Bull) was the last car of the queue. He hasn't passed the point where pit exit turns to the track. (the line is where the pit exit white line ends) So IMO red light was there for a reason.

[jens]

Rumours are that there will be a change in rules for Monaco GP.

Not really. I have heard that they are discussing about a speed limiter or something (I don't know exactly), but it takes time to work out the systems and test them in F1 cars. At best we'll see a change by midseason, but I'd be sceptical about that too.

[ArrowsFA1]

Mark Webber has said that Piquet's result in Germany "provides further evidence that Formula One's safety car rules are 'a joke'."

Link (http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/69386)

[ioan]

Webber is right we are getting interesting results solely because the current SC rules are bad (or good for certain people who need contrived show!).

[leopard]

Renault wouldn't be happy to hear this, they can stop supplying him engine.

[jens]

So far this year we have already had two fluke podiums (DC and Piquet) due to SC rules. I do think it needs to be changed, because as we see luck factor is starting to play too important role. Also I actually think that who wants to finish 4th in the WCC, will need to get lucky with safety cars. P4 won't be won purely by performance - this is something I can say quite comfortably.

What is also wrong with this SC rule that it rewards drivers, who have started way behind (neither DC nor Piquet started from Top10 in races, where they finished on podium). I find it illogical that slower drivers are in beneficial situation. It's ruining the goal of sport, which is to determine the best. F1 is more likely turning into a circus.

[jso1985]

is it just me or why do I think that with old SC rules Piquet would have "overtaken" everyone during their pitstops too...

and if Piquet was such a "slow" driver then why he wasn't overtaken by more drivers?

[leopard]

I think so, even under current SC rules he was ahead of everyone, before Hamilton taking the lead from him.

[jens]

is it just me or why do I think that with old SC rules Piquet would have "overtaken" everyone during their pitstops too...


We seem to be discussing this all over and over again, but he wasn't even in Top10 before his first pitstop, which he made shortly before the safety car session. So if others had made their (forced) stops right after him too, he still wouldn't have risen into Top10.

I find it strange that folks have already forgotten the previous SC rules. Recently I have read too many assumptions like with the old rules it would have all been the same - far from it! If it was all the same, we wouldn't be discussing about the rules! With previous SC rules it would have been impossible that a backmarker (unfairly) suddenly becomes a top contender.

[leopard]

People - certainly both of you - might have clean dif perception about the old SC. :)

[HereIam]

it's the luck of the draw, isn't it? Sometimes you gain, sometimes you lose....

[Bezza]

I like the fact that lapped cars can overtake and the snake is now in proper order when the safety car goes back in.

I also fail to see the real issue with "fluke" results - these things happen. Piquet had to pit just once and it fell at the right time. Whatever the safety car rules are, he still would have benefited from a safety car!

Does Webber think Piquet should be penalized just because he started in 17th? Luck happens.

[jso1985]

I find it strange that folks have already forgotten the previous SC rules. Recently I have read too many assumptions like with the old rules it would have all been the same - far from it! If it was all the same, we wouldn't be discussing about the rules! With previous SC rules it would have been impossible that a backmarker (unfairly) suddenly becomes a top contender.

how about the 2005 Chinese GP, after Karthikeyan's crash and the SC, Klien was 3rd!

[Garry Walker]

I also fail to see the real issue with "fluke" results - these things happen. Piquet had to pit just once and it fell at the right time. Whatever the safety car rules are, he still would have benefited from a safety car!



with old SC rules he never would have gotten 2nd position.

Another example of the idiotic SC rule, a complete joke of a driver gets rewarded with a podium position after qualifying over 10 places below his teammate and doing nothing in the race.

Wonderful.

[Knock-on]

with old SC rules he never would have gotten 2nd position.

Another example of the idiotic SC rule, a complete joke of a driver gets rewarded with a podium position after qualifying over 10 places below his teammate and doing nothing in the race.

Wonderful.

Ahhhh, Garry. It's like you've never been away :laugh:

Spot on though ;)

[jens]

how about the 2005 Chinese GP, after Karthikeyan's crash and the SC, Klien was 3rd!

Where was Klien before the safety car? I very much doubt he was a backmarker and had at least risen near to point-scoring positions, because even if he was 3rd (was he really?), he couldn't have been much behind the cars in front of him before SC, who made a pistop, which enabled him to pass them.

Besides that, Klien (as well as Massa and Ralf), who had opted to stay out with safety car appearance, still needed to make a pitstop, so they needed to have some pace to increase the gap between themselves and chasers to stay in the points after stops.

[jso1985]

he qualified 14th, what was his position before the incident, I'm not sure, probably around there, although Fisichella "packed up" the field and that probably helped everyone to catch up, hence everyone that didn't pit(Ralf, Klien and Massa according to grandprix.com) could overtake everyone but Alonso, still on the last German GP Piquet even if he was 16th, he wasn't that far away(in seconds) from the leaders.

while I found the current SC rules not the best, fluke results have ocurred always.

[Bezza]

Regardless of the fluke of getting into second place, who can't deny Piquet drove well once there. Massa couldn't catch him.

The safety car would ALWAYS have benefited Piquet, however the current rules benefited him MORE than in the past years.

Lets wait until Webber benefits from the safety car and see if he owns up to being lucky.

[harsha]

Watching the times of Massa and Piquet Jr ....it wasn't as if Massa was really being held back by Piquet....Piquet seemed to be faster than Massa tbh,comparing the times

[ioan]

Watching the times of Massa and Piquet Jr ....it wasn't as if Massa was really being held back by Piquet....Piquet seemed to be faster than Massa tbh,comparing the times

Yep, Massa had troubles with overheating breaks and had no chance to go any faster.

[jens]

Well, Piquet was actually quite far behind the leaders before SC, because as I wrote, before his first stop (shortly before SC) he was narrowly in Top12, so after the stop he wasn't probably far from getting lapped...

But anyway. There is one more issue I find hard to understand. If Piquet was so quick in the second half of the race, then... where the hell was his pace in qualifying and the first half of the race?

[harsha]

Yep, Massa had troubles with overheating breaks and had no chance to go any faster.

i was stuck with seeing the live times through f1 and didn't see the race..so thanks for the info :up:

[jso1985]

But anyway. There is one more issue I find hard to understand. If Piquet was so quick in the second half of the race, then... where the hell was his pace in qualifying and the first half of the race?

I don't know, ask Kimi Raikkonen, he knows a thing or two about finding the correct pace a bit too late ;)