Danica Patrick's Victory in the Indy Japan–Are the Rules Fair?

[Rex Monaco]

"She is a mid-pack performer at best that finishes higher up because of her incredibly advantageous weight. Bolt 20 pounds in the chassis beside each shoulder and her gender-provided weight bias disappears...and so does her up front finishes."

http://mensnewsdaily.com/2008/04/24/danica-patricks-victory-in-the-indy-japan-are-the-rules-fair/

[xtlm]

if this were true, she would have won before her 50th start

[Osiris333]

Only if she can drive as fast as the front runners, which she can't.

[mileman]

Everybody's looking for a way to diminish or trash Danica's performance. Sounds like silly stuff to me...

Patrick is not an elite/great driver, but she is a reasonably good one, especially on high speed ovals. The weight issue is being picky when so many greater issues are at play.

[CARTDM15]

Everybody's looking for a way to diminish or trash Danica's performance. Sounds like silly stuff to me...

Patrick is not an elite/great driver, but she is a reasonably good one, especially on high speed ovals. The weight issue is being picky when so many greater issues are at play.
Its that we don't get excited over average drivers, like Danica.

[FormerFF]

I thought the weight rules changed this year.

Besides, her win at Motegi was due to strategy, not speed.

[Vegasguy]

Weight rules are - 1,565 pounds minimum for ovals and 1,640 pounds minimum for road courses, including driver, fuel and all lubricants and coolants.
Per the indy car website.

There is some 3 catagory rule were lighter drivers have to add weight but it still does not equal the weight of the larger drivers. I can't find the rule however.

[DrDomm]

Why is the car heavier on road courses?

[Hoop-98]

iron brakes

[jarrambide]

I thought the weight rules changed this year.

Besides, her win at Motegi was due to strategy, not speed.


Exactly, I personally have always liked series trying to get weight out of the equation, I like shorty a lot, but I always believed his weight had a lot to do in his championship and his best years, and I applauded the fact weight was sort of extracted from the equation, but this win was all strategy, weight had nothing to do.

[tbyars]

IBesides, her win at Motegi was due to strategy, not speed.

Actually, folks keep saying that, and that is totally wrong. The winner of ANY race ALWAYS wins on speed!

What exactly is speed? It's distance traveled in a given time

A race has a defined distance, either empirically or in relation to time. The winner of that race is the one who covers the distance in the least amount of time. Distance per unit time....that's called SPEED.

Over the period of the race, Danica was the fastest car in Japan. That's simply a fact of physics.

[Stuartf12007]

I cant believe you are using her weight as argument, how pathetic of you.

Instead of being an ignorant obnoxious biggot why dont you ask the fat american male drivers to lose weight.

[Wilf]

"She is a mid-pack performer at best that finishes higher up because of her incredibly advantageous weight. Bolt 20 pounds in the chassis beside each shoulder and her gender-provided weight bias disappears...and so does her up front finishes."

http://mensnewsdaily.com/2008/04/24/danica-patricks-victory-in-the-indy-japan-are-the-rules-fair/


The've added weight to her car this year and she has a win and is running 3rd in the points. She must have been too light to control the car. Yeah, that's it, they've artificially aided her by adding weight; if she were forced to race at her real weight she wouldn't be doing so well.

There you go, now you can argue that they have to force her to take the weight out of the car since it obviously is unfair to the other drivers.

Or . . .

She is better than a mid pack driver driving in excellent equipment.

[NickFalzone]

The weight rules have balanced out the field this season, and as everyone knows, the weight comes into play much more on the road and street than on high-speed ovals. So it's really stretching it to say that weight had anything to do with her Motegi win.

[jarrambide]

I cant believe you are using her weight as argument, how pathetic of you.

Instead of being an ignorant obnoxious biggot why dont you ask the fat american male drivers to lose weight.
And why don´t you try presenting your views without the use of words like obnoxious, ignorant and bigot, many times unarticulated posts are the reflection of posters that can´t present their opinions and instead opt to attack other posters.

By the way, the next time you are thinking of calling someone else ignorant, at least have the decency of not having so many spelling mistakes when using just a few words, 3 mistakes in 33 words looks bad, almost 10%.

American, instead of american(sic).

Bigot, instead of biggot(sic).

Don't, instead of dont(sic).

And English is not even my native language.

[Stuartf12007]

And why don´t you try presenting your views without the use of words like obnoxious, ignorant and bigot, many times unarticulated posts are the reflection of posters that can´t present their opinions and instead opt to attack other posters.

By the way, the next time you are thinking of calling someone else ignorant, at least have the decency of not having so many spelling mistakes when using just a few words, 3 mistakes in 33 words looks bad, almost 10%.

American, instead of american(sic).

Bigot, instead of biggot(sic).

Don't, instead of dont(sic).

And English is not even my native language.

Whatevooooooooooooor!

[F1boat]

Danica is not great driver, but she is solid and deserves her victory.

[bblocker68]

Whatevooooooooooooor!

13 mistakes in one word, WOW!

[PSfan]

I cant believe you are using her weight as argument, how pathetic of you.

Instead of being an ignorant obnoxious biggot why dont you ask the fat american male drivers to lose weight.

Unlike others here who prefer to bring grammer and spelling into the discussion, I would prefer to ask who you are directing this comment to? The thread starter directed us to an article, nothing more, all the replies up to now seem to be opposed to the idea that weight was an issue in her win, or her overall track performance, specially this year. The original poster hasn't expressed his/her own opinion on the issue.

Now, anyone who read the article, must have noticed it does aknowledge that the rules where changed this year, however, they suggest that the new rules fall short... (something about 10lbs... I read the article last night, but wasn't sure what they where getting at...) Of course the article also contrasts the suggestion she is at an advantage, also suggesting that her lighter weight does come at a price, lack of physical strength.

Without knowing what the article was going on about with the 10lbs issue, and not knowing how the weight is added to the cars is regulated, I still think she might some advantage over the heavier drivers if the teams are allowed to "move" the weight around to help find a better set-up, but thats still a much smaller advantage then she had before.

[Cart750hp]

Danica won, give it a rest. It's not like she won because she cheated against the rule book for her own advantage. If the rules were not fair, why not the other drivers or teams complained about this rule or petition to amend? Could be because they thought she will never win? I tell you what, I won't be surprised if we see changes in this rule now that she finally won. I think she won fair and square. Every driver follow the same rule and there's no Danica's exemption in the fine line. This is something that back in CC days, there was this lady over there that everyone thought she'd pull out something big yet, she proved me right three years in a row.

[bravefish]

Gees its almost as though nobody has seen a race won on fuel strategy before ???? Danica drove a really good race, she still had to maintain a lot of speed to win even if she was leaned out - Castroneves couldnt do it, bet nobody would have been looking to pick the bones out of Penske if he'd won it on fuel strategy... Was also good to hear Scott Dixon before the Kansas race remind a few people that his first win came via fuel strategy at Nazareth way back then - although realistically that was the only way he was going to do it in that hideous PacWest coal powered entry...

[champcarray]

I'm with you, bravefish. She's a good driver driving for a good team that chose the winning strategy. I've seen the "fuel economy" strategy result in victory dozens of times for a broad range of drivers and teams. I see no need to denigrate Danica for her win.

[jarrambide]

I'm with you, bravefish. She's a good driver driving for a good team that chose the winning strategy. I've seen the "fuel economy" strategy result in victory dozens of times for a broad range of drivers and teams. I see no need to denigrate Danica for her win.


At least 90% of Adrian Fernandez´s wins came as a direct result of a fuel strategy, he is one of the few drivers that began every race with the firm idea of trying to win with fuel strategy, I never liked the guy because of it but it is part of racing and is not against the rules.

[anthonyvop]

If you do not believe that weight is a factor then you know nothing about racing. Every ounce counts. In F-1 a team will spend $10,000 on development of a wheel nut to save a few ounces.

Every major racing series(and most minor) have a weight rule that is equal across the board. They also combine the weight of both the car and the driver.
Every major series except the IRL!
The only one that doesn't is the DTM series where if you win a race you are then forced to add a 20Kg ballast penalty.

Until the IRL changes it's rules DP's win will always have an asterisk next to it.

[NickFalzone]

Anthony, do you know the exact details of the new IRL weight rules? They did apply at Motegi. And even if they're not as precise as F1's, they do balance out the field. And as previously mentioned, the weight discrepancies really come into play on road and street courses, not ovals. So her win really does not deserve an * based on weight. Less than full car count... perhaps, though there again she beat all the best oval drivers. There's no real easy way to discount her win.

[Rex Monaco]

The thread starter directed us to an article, nothing more...

Yeah, that!

[Hoop-98]

If you do not believe that weight is a factor then you know nothing about racing. Every ounce counts. In F-1 a team will spend $10,000 on development of a wheel nut to save a few ounces.

Every major racing series(and most minor) have a weight rule that is equal across the board. They also combine the weight of both the car and the driver.
Every major series except the IRL!
The only one that doesn't is the DTM series where if you win a race you are then forced to add a 20Kg ballast penalty.

Until the IRL changes it's rules DP's win will always have an asterisk next to it.

what are the rules? lol.....Until or unless you get a clue every post of yours will have an asterisk next to it :P

rh

[tbyars]

what are the rules? lol.....Until or unless you get a clue every post of yours will have an asterisk next to it :P

rh

Hoop, I think that is a very fair question. Tony has complained strongly that Danica's victory deserves an asterisk. I wish he, since he holds that opinion, would give us an in-depth, detailed discription of what the IRL's new weight rules are. I would assume that if he can complain that her victory was not exactly fair, that he can quote the details of rules that support that position.

I mean, if he can't do that, then his comments do indeed lack a good bit of credibility, don't they?

[tbyars]

So her win really does not deserve an * based on weight. Less than full car count... perhaps, though there again she beat all the best oval drivers. There's no real easy way to discount her win.

If Danica gets an astrisk because of a short field, isn't it only fair for Will Power's LB win to get an asterisk for EXACTLY the same reason?

Not saying it should...just food for thought.....

[PSfan]

Patrick herself are complaining about a new rule which feminists claim is "aimed at the women in Indy." The rule says that lighter drivers have to carry ten more pounds on them.

That, of course is taken from the article at the start of this thread


An IRL spokesman quoted by USA Today emphasized that the new regulation is "not a Danica rule" and pointed out that many Indy drivers are on the small side.

Under the new rule, drivers will be divided into three categories based on their weight, and the heavy group will get weight cut from their cars, while the lightest will get ballast added.

That was taken from an article dated March 26th 2008 (days before the opening race of the season


Weight Minimum 1,565 lbs for ovals or 1,640 on road courses (with coolants, lubricants, fuel and driver)

And that is taken from Indycar.com


what are the rules? lol

So, yup, I would like some confirmation on the rules too :p :

[NickFalzone]

If Danica gets an astrisk because of a short field, isn't it only fair for Will Power's LB win to get an asterisk for EXACTLY the same reason?

Not saying it should...just food for thought.....

I don't think there should be an asterisk on either win, just saying that since everyone is looking for a reason to criticize her win, that seems more legit to me than some of the more desperate attempts to discredit her. I've been watching the series for awhile and anyone else that follows it regularly knew she'd get a win one time or another, she got very close last year. The fact is, she's not IMO one of the top 3-5 drivers in the series, but she is a top 10 driver with A-list equipment, she was going to get a win one way or another.

[tbyars]

I don't think there should be an asterisk on either win, just saying that since everyone is looking for a reason to criticize her win, that seems more legit to me than some of the more desperate attempts to discredit her. I've been watching the series for awhile and anyone else that follows it regularly knew she'd get a win one time or another, she got very close last year. The fact is, she's not IMO one of the top 3-5 drivers in the series, but she is a top 10 driver with A-list equipment, she was going to get a win one way or another.

Agreed. (And certainly didn't feel like you were advocating an asterisk. Just making a point for those who have.)

[PSfan]

If you do not believe that weight is a factor then you know nothing about racing. Every ounce counts. In F-1 a team will spend $10,000 on development of a wheel nut to save a few ounces.

Every major racing series(and most minor) have a weight rule that is equal across the board. They also combine the weight of both the car and the driver.
Every major series except the IRL!
The only one that doesn't is the DTM series where if you win a race you are then forced to add a 20Kg ballast penalty.

Until the IRL changes it's rules DP's win will always have an asterisk next to it.

Some good points, anyone paying attention to speedtv's F1 coverage would almost be getting sick of how they like to comment on Kubica's winter diet... think he managed to lose some 7kgs, the gain, when F1 cars are weighed dry with the driver? moveable ballast... And they attribute that to his good start this year.

IRL also has a minimum weight that includes the driver, but how they came up with the minimum weight might be a question. If it happens to be some formula like STD chassis + all fluids (Fuel, oils, etc) + Danica Patrick + 10 lbs. Sure you have your minimum weight with driver, but a guy like Justin Wilson might have to chop off both arms and legs in order to come close to it.

As for the notion that she should have an asterisk next to her win, well she, and her team played by the rules so really, no asterisk. As part of the thread title "are the rules fair" well thats what I'm interested in, Do we know that all the cars at the start of an IRL race weigh the same?

And for those quick to point out that she won a fuel mileage race, and that weight wasn't a factor should keep in mind, if he car is 50lbs lighter the Helio's she will also get better fuel mileage from that factor as well. Of course I also don't believe weight was a factor in her win because that would be contradictory to the opinions I've already expressed on that matter :p :

[anthonyvop]

According to this Article in USA Today the new weight rules didn't go into effect till the Indy 500.

http://www.usatoday.com/sports/motor/irl/2008-05-24-danica-rule_N.htm

So her win in Japan is even less of a feat.
Also according to the Article AGR claims that Danica's ballast was 35 lbs. That still gives her an advantage.

[Ruben Barrios]

At least 90% of Adrian Fernandez´s wins came as a direct result of a fuel strategy, he is one of the few drivers that began every race with the firm idea of trying to win with fuel strategy, I never liked the guy because of it but it is part of racing and is not against the rules.

Finally something we agree on...

[Ruben Barrios]

According to this Article in USA Today the new weight rules didn't go into effect till the Indy 500.

http://www.usatoday.com/sports/motor/irl/2008-05-24-danica-rule_N.htm

So her win in Japan is even less of a feat.
Also according to the Article AGR claims that Danica's ballast was 35 lbs. That still gives her an advantage.

See how well she did in Indy, even before the racing incident, she was strugguling to stay in the top 10 (still very respectable). I predict she will start using fuel strategy more and more, and we will see her stats go down now that the field is more even wight-wise.

[nigelred5]

I cant believe you are using her weight as argument, how pathetic of you.

Instead of being an ignorant obnoxious biggot why dont you ask the fat american male drivers to lose weight.

Yeah, Justin Wilson is a fat a$$. :rolleyes: He's six three. How's he gonna loose weight? what about Rahal, he's what, six-1? We aren't talking about greasing up fat a$S AJ and shoehorning into a car like they used to. Not every driver in indycars is a damn horse jockey.
F1 has had minimum weight with driver for years. This is simply a problem of Indycar never including the driver's weight in the minimum weight like every one else.