Citroën's plan for future: DTM instead Rally ???

[Tom206wrc]

Hi,


Found a strange article in polish that needs to be translated...

http://autoklub.pl/19766,news.html


:confused:

[Corny]

wow, Loeb in a Suzuki :p

[Donney]

And a C5 in the DTM :crazy:

[Brother John]

And a C5 in the DTM :crazy:

Bay baaaaaaaaaaaaay . :D

[Daniel]

Citroen in the DTM? Don't know if I believe that one!

[koko0703]

DTM is a national series.... I don't know if Citroen really wants to replace world championship with national series, especially when they have the best driver in the world holding their steering wheel.

[AndyRAC]

DTM is a national series.... I don't know if Citroen really wants to replace world championship with national series, especially when they have the best driver in the world holding their steering wheel.

But which gets more exposure??
Maybe Citroen feel they want to be a 'Prestige' brand with Merc and Audi, so therefore can't be in the WRC.

[Daniel]

But which gets more exposure??
Maybe Citroen feel they want to be a 'Prestige' brand with Merc and Audi, so therefore can't be in the WRC.

I don't think Citroen will ever be a prestige brand when they've got cars like the C1, C2, C3 and C4 in the lineup. Considering those cars give them the majority of their sales I don't see them trying to become a premium brand anytime soon.

[AndyRAC]

I don't think Citroen will ever be a prestige brand when they've got cars like the C1, C2, C3 and C4 in the lineup. Considering those cars give them the majority of their sales I don't see them trying to become a premium brand anytime soon.

I agree, but having seen their new advert promoting the C5, making out it's German.
Anyway isn't there a rule that states 'Prestige brands' aren't allowed in the WRC? Ha.... :) :) !!!

[Daniel]

I agree, but having seen their new advert promoting the C5, making out it's German.
Anyway isn't there a rule that states 'Prestige brands' aren't allowed in the WRC? Ha.... :) :) !!!
Doesn't mean it's a prestige brand. Just means the drivers will drive like knobs :)

http://www.sniffpetrol.com/wp-content/uploads/spadcitroenc5.jpg

[F1boat]

DTM is a national series.... I don't know if Citroen really wants to replace world championship with national series, especially when they have the best driver in the world holding their steering wheel.

To me, DTM is still below the WRC. Sure, it is different animal, and it is very high-tech and Mattias Ekstrom has proven the drivers quality while winning the RoC twice in a row, but still it is a National series. While the WRC is a world championship, which tests the cars on different tasks. And also, Citroen may be backmakers in the DTM, while they are front-runners in the WRC. It will be a bad decision if they choose the DTM.

[Buzz Lightyear]

Sordo and Ogier in Red Bull Citroen's... the equivelent money that Red Bull puts in will pay for development of DTM, Loeb wins 5 wrc champs in a row, gets rather bored of it all, and drive a C5 in DTM for something different to do. sounds plausable to me.

[Ghostwalker]

a rough translation from poltran:


Representatives of citroen observed first round on Deutsche Tourenwagen Masters Hockenheimringu. They have faced each other with (from) Norbertem Haugiem and Wolfgangiem Ullrichem they were interested cost -, instruction book (order), generally whole serial. From exemption (recapture) after season opel 2005, it searchs for third producer DTM, which (who) would like to chase (to race) with mercedes and Audi. It gossip about MG and Lexusie, it is said about citroen presently. Speculations have appeared in media concerning racing C5 and. Sebastiena Loeba, Which (who) has foreshadowed (has presaged), that it will be transmitted (will be rescheduled) after rally career on gauge. Present program of citroen is finished in (to) after season 2009 WRC.

[BDunnell]

I think any non-German manufacturer wanting to enter the DTM ought to think again, unless they desperately want to promote themselves more in Germany alone. It's a great championship, but its reach in marketing terms is hardly global.

[MJW]

I dont know why there is so much negativity about DTM, the coverage on Motors TV is very good and lengthy. With a race the whole event can be covered with a few cameras and given a two hour slot on tv. I can see a future where rallying (hopefully) returns to its roots with lower tech cars and more traditional, i.e. non cloverleaf /service park centred events. If this happens maybe some of the current teams opt for a more hi-tech arena. Nothing stays constant with manufacturers in WRC - anyone remember Lancia ?

[MJW]

Also it would be good for Loeb to show the F1 retirement home drivers how to drive, and I dont doubt Citroen's engineering capability to be front runners.

[koko0703]

let's put it this way. i think DTM is a great series, and i'm not against Citroen being interested in DTM. afterall Subaru runs semi-works effort in Japanese GT series. but i don't think it's worth to throw away everything Citroen has done with rallying just to go to national series. moreover, it'll be shame if they take Loeb with them.

[Tom206wrc]

Anyway, during a speech at the Lisbon Motorshow(Portugal) last week, PSA chairman Christian Streiff said Citroën and rallying is still for a long time ;)

So if DTM there is, it would be in complement with WRC and not in replacement, I suppose :confused:

[Daniel]

Anyway, during a speech at the Lisbon Motorshow(Portugal) last week, PSA chairman Christian Streiff said Citroën and rallying is still for a long time ;)

So if DTM there is, it would be in complement with WRC and not in replacement, I suppose :confused:
Peugeot said in 2003 or 2004 that they were in the WRC for the long run so I'm not entirely sure you can trust people on this.

[BDunnell]

I dont know why there is so much negativity about DTM, the coverage on Motors TV is very good and lengthy. With a race the whole event can be covered with a few cameras and given a two hour slot on tv. I can see a future where rallying (hopefully) returns to its roots with lower tech cars and more traditional, i.e. non cloverleaf /service park centred events. If this happens maybe some of the current teams opt for a more hi-tech arena. Nothing stays constant with manufacturers in WRC - anyone remember Lancia ?

No negativity on my part - I'm just saying it's a German domestic championship, which, despite the races held outside Germany, it is.

[MJW]

Autosport in UK today runs a story that Oliver Quensel did visit a DTM round and was very impressed with the promotion of the series. He also said that the new C5 is pitched against German marques, Audi A4 and C clas Merc and that racing against them is appealing. Also the current rally deal continues to end of 2009 with Loeb driving. Motorsport will be reviewd by the Citroen board but as Sporting Director it is his (Quensel's) responsibility to provide the company with the best marketing for the products. Like all manufacturers Citroen are in motorsport to sell cars and the current promotion of the WRC is woefully inadequate. The future direction for Citroen Sport will become apparent in due course, but until end of 2009 nothing changes, C4 / WRC/ Loeb.

[Buzz Lightyear]

Oliver Quensel did visit a DTM round and was very impressed with the promotion of the series. .


Motorsport will be reviewd by the Citroen board but as Sporting Director it is his (Quensel's) responsibility to provide the company with the best marketing for the products.

these 2 statements combined mean... "see ya wrc.... were off to DTM"

at least in an official capacity.

[ste898]

If Citroen do leave WRC you can thank the clown that they have in charge now Oliver Quensel he does'nt look to be a big fan of rallying and getting his feet wet........
Let him go to the roundy roundy rubbish and let someone else take over the Citroen WRC team

What exactly do Citroen do to promote all their wins in WRC? bring out a hot C4 no? Adverts in papers NO......same with Ford!!!!!

[MJW]

STE898 I think thats a bit unfair of you to say that about Quensel, sure he is a little naiive about some things, I'm sure the engine change fiasco in Mexico and the fact that they were outsmarted by Ford on running order tactics last day in Jordan seemed a bit "new boy" and that if Frequelin was in charge those mistakes may not have occured. On the other hand Quensel did want to break away from the 3 stages and 2 hours in service park type of wrc we now have and go back to old style events. He is paid to do a job and ensure Citroen's name is there, you have to ask winning wrc year on year is getting a bit boring, maybe Citroen need a fresh challenge.

[Buzz Lightyear]

If Citroen do leave WRC you can thank the clown that they have in charge now Oliver Quensel he does'nt look to be a big fan of rallying and getting his feet wet........
Let him go to the roundy roundy rubbish and let someone else take over the Citroen WRC team

What exactly do Citroen do to promote all their wins in WRC? bring out a hot C4 no? Adverts in papers NO......same with Ford!!!!!

indeed...citroens image in WRC is very bland.

reality is DTM, and any roundy roundy racing, is easier covered for TV, easier for spectators to get to, and allows big brands to do the full corporate hospitality deal. In the case of DTM, possibilty draws more viewers than WRC.

Maybe its a complete change of business marketing, to promoting the new C5, which is actually quite nice, after making sure a mess of the first version.

I expect Oliver Quensel is only being told what to do.

[Daniel]

If Citroen do leave WRC you can thank the clown that they have in charge now Oliver Quensel he does'nt look to be a big fan of rallying and getting his feet wet........
Let him go to the roundy roundy rubbish and let someone else take over the Citroen WRC team

What exactly do Citroen do to promote all their wins in WRC? bring out a hot C4 no? Adverts in papers NO......same with Ford!!!!!

For once I mostly agree with you.

Though there is a C4 VTS with a 180bhp engines but these days that's not considered hot I suppose.

[L5->R5/CR]

If Citroen do leave WRC you can thank the clown that they have in charge now Oliver Quensel he does'nt look to be a big fan of rallying and getting his feet wet........
Let him go to the roundy roundy rubbish and let someone else take over the Citroen WRC team

What exactly do Citroen do to promote all their wins in WRC? bring out a hot C4 no? Adverts in papers NO......same with Ford!!!!!

Advertising by teams goes hand in hand with the visibility of the series.

If the WRC was more aware, more followed, and more broadly respected then it would behoove sucessful teams to promote their success. As it stands currently those teams would have to spend as much time and money promoting themselves as explaining the WRC.

There is no value in telling someone you won something they have heard nothing about.

[Daniel]

Advertising by teams goes hand in hand with the visibility of the series.

If the WRC was more aware, more followed, and more broadly respected then it would behoove sucessful teams to promote their success. As it stands currently those teams would have to spend as much time and money promoting themselves as explaining the WRC.

There is no value in telling someone you won something they have heard nothing about.
But you could argue it works the other way around also. Who wants to watch a series when they don't really know who's competing and who's winning because the manufacturers don't advertise their presence in the series.

[BDunnell]

What exactly do Citroen do to promote all their wins in WRC? bring out a hot C4 no? Adverts in papers NO......same with Ford!!!!!

They would do if they thought anyone cared, but because the WRC is at such a low ebb, the fact that Citroen is winning in it doesn't matter to potential car buyers. Simple as that. S2000 can't come too soon.

[RS]

Autosport in UK today runs a story that Oliver Quensel did visit a DTM round and was very impressed with the promotion of the series. He also said that the new C5 is pitched against German marques, Audi A4 and C clas Merc and that racing against them is appealing. Also the current rally deal continues to end of 2009 with Loeb driving. Motorsport will be reviewd by the Citroen board but as Sporting Director it is his (Quensel's) responsibility to provide the company with the best marketing for the products. Like all manufacturers Citroen are in motorsport to sell cars and the current promotion of the WRC is woefully inadequate. The future direction for Citroen Sport will become apparent in due course, but until end of 2009 nothing changes, C4 / WRC/ Loeb.

Same article reports that Suzuki may be off at the end of this year, so unless the new Subaru is half decent we may be reduced to a Focus one make championship.

[RS]

But you could argue it works the other way around also. Who wants to watch a series when they don't really know who's competing and who's winning because the manufacturers don't advertise their presence in the series.

But they're already spending tens of millions of euros per year to compete, they shouldn't have to spend even more to tell everyone that fact!

[DonJippo]

But they're already spending tens of millions of euros per year to compete, they shouldn't have to spend even more to tell everyone that fact!

Who's job it is then if not manufactures?

[Daniel]

Same article reports that Suzuki may be off at the end of this year, so unless the new Subaru is half decent we may be reduced to a Focus one make championship.
That is the best think for the championship I feel.

[Daniel]

But they're already spending tens of millions of euros per year to compete, they shouldn't have to spend even more to tell everyone that fact!

Like DJ said whose job is it? Even when the WRC was at it's peak the manufacturers still advertised and for good reason. You need to advertise your achievements to reap the benefit of all those millions spent getting there.

[RS]

That is the best think for the championship I feel.

You think it would be a good thing to have a Focus one make championship?

[Daniel]

You think it would be a good thing to have a Focus one make championship?
Only if Ford then leave also :) The WRC needs to get worse before it can get better. Some people are still delusional and think that it's going to get better. I think there's very little chance of it getting better unless S200+ brings something truly amazing to the table.

[RS]

Who's job it is then if not manufactures?

The point is they shouldn't NEED to spend more money to promote their particpation, the sport itself should be promoted better as Quesnel says. The WRC is a promotional tool - For example you don't make a tv commercial then take out a press article to tell everyone to watch it!

[DonJippo]

For example you don't make a tv commercial then take out a press article to tell everyone to watch it!

If there would be a tv commercial in first place, currently manufactures are not doing anything. As an example Ford uses cars floating around with balloons instead of their motorsport success :dozey:

[AndyRAC]

If there would be a tv commercial in first place, currently manufactures are not doing anything. As an example Ford uses cars floating around with balloons instead of their motorsport success :dozey:

Quite agree!! Ford have won the last two Manufacturers Championships, I haven't seen anything to really promote it -certainly no TV advert. Citroen are even worse. After the last two Le Mans series races I've seen adverts for the Peugeot 908 TDI - and promoting how good their Diesels are.
The thing is, I couldn't blame Citroen from walking away and joining the DTM. If they feel they're going to get better exposure than the WRC, what does that tell you about the WRC, and the people running it? Iwouldn't have a go at Quesnal, because he has some interesing views regarding the format of Rallies - arguing that they need to be spread out more. Maybe Daniel is right, the whole sport needs to fall on its backside and start again before it gets better. Because at the moment, the level of promotion is simply shocking - it could disappear, and nobody would know/or even care. Yet, only 5-7 years ago we were getting final round showdowns with a high level of media interest, etc

[gloomyDAY]

No! It's true. (http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/67078)

Olivier Quesnel makes great points. Hard to argue with that logic.

[F1boat]

I still think that this will be a mistake. But I will be interested if Loeb moves to the DTM. This will be a huge challenge for him, but I guess that after so many WRC titles he wants something new.
On the other hand, this year is far from decided...

[F1boat]

BTW, why DTM and not WTCC?

[White Sauron]

BTW, why DTM and not WTCC?

Maybe because all FIA series get less promotion? I mean new Dakar Series already gets more exposure than FIA World Cup. In many countries, Russia included, watching DTM is also far more interesting than WTCC. It feels just like the FIA concentrate all their media efforts on F1...

[F1boat]

I didn't knew that FIA is promoting only F-1. I know that I may sound dumb, but to me Eurosport sounded cool enough. Obviously it is not, but if the trend continues, FIA championships may disappear, except, of course, the mighty F-1.
BTW, great nickname, White Sauron ;)

[AndyRAC]

Maybe because all FIA series get less promotion? I mean new Dakar Series already gets more exposure than FIA World Cup. In many countries, Russia included, watching DTM is also far more interesting than WTCC. It feels just like the FIA concentrate all their media efforts on F1...

Hit the nail on the head. There are only 3 FIA World Championships, yet 90%+ of the coverage is just on one of them. The other 2 make do with scraps. They should be doing more to promote them. My problem with the WTCC is that Eurosport have invested in it - it's not in their best interests for it to go to a wider viewership - i;e Terrestrial TV. Both the WTCC and WRC suffer from a lack of Manufacturers, which is why I'd have one car for both series - just add a Turbo and 4WD for the WRC.

[F1boat]

I didn't know that the situation was that bad. I knew that WRC and WTCC are no way near F-1, but I am surprised that the DTM is more popular.

[HaCo]

I wonder if Loeb could even get to the top of DTM, even in a top notch Audi. How many F1 drivers have struggled to get on the top? DTM, GT, WTCC,... are all very specific, no stepping in and winning.

[Daniel]

If there would be a tv commercial in first place, currently manufactures are not doing anything. As an example Ford uses cars floating around with balloons instead of their motorsport success :dozey:

I had a thread in the Transport section saying how crap those ads were and got bashed for it :dozey: Evidently that sells cars to people on this forum :laugh:

[MikeD]

I didn't know that the situation was that bad. I knew that WRC and WTCC are no way near F-1, but I am surprised that the DTM is more popular.


After what happened last year in DTM it's beyond me that anybody wants to watch that crap!

[F1boat]

Maybe it is because Audi and Mercedes are very handsome cars, but the racing in DTM to me seems much like F-1, but with touring cars this doesn't work very well IMO.

[DonJippo]

No! It's true. (http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/67078)

Olivier Quesnel makes great points. Hard to argue with that logic.

I was not aware DTM goes to China... :rolleyes:

[gloomyDAY]

Subaru does its job in keeping people interested in rallying (not specifically the WRC) with these adverts. Pretty cool commercial (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tQGx28B1p6M) if you ask me.


I was not aware DTM goes to China... :rolleyes: Yeah, that part didn't make any sense. I'm sure he meant manufacturing cars in China, but whatever the excuse he is right about WRC's exposure, nonexistent.

I think Loeb's talent is being wasted in the WRC. Can I get anyone else's take on that please?

[ShiftingGears]

I think Loeb could cut it in F1...

[F1boat]

DonJippo, wasn't there a Chinese race in DTM few years ago? I am not sure, I might be wrong.
gloomyDAY, honestly I don't know. I have always rated the WRC very highly and I think that Loeb has proven himself to be one of the greatest driver today.

[gloomyDAY]

DonJippo, wasn't there a Chinese race in DTM few years ago? I am not sure, I might be wrong.
gloomyDAY, honestly I don't know. I have always rated the WRC very highly and I think that Loeb has proven himself to be one of the greatest driver today.Race in China. (http://www.crash.net/motorsport/dtm/feature/5336-0/audi_prepare_for_dtm_in_china.html)

Most drivers in the WRC have a very well deserved seat.
Challenging Loeb is the most difficult hurdle in the WRC at the moment.

[F1boat]

Yes, but IMO this makes the championship very exciting. I think that Latvala will become a great rally driver. Hirvonen is also very good.
BTW, thanks for the link.

[ShiftingGears]

which is why I'd have one car for both series - just add a Turbo and 4WD for the WRC.

And risk dividing your resources for both? I'm not sure many would be keen on it.

[A.F.F.]

There might be a phoenix phenomenon ahead. WRC must die before it lives again. I somehow, naively thought the transition to forthcoming S2000 class could happen without bigger wounds but now it seem to be we have very thin year(s) ahead before WRC starts to rise and shine again.

Then again, S2000 machinery might also take it's stand next year already :) At leat in European national rallying series there are more and more of those S2000 pioneers.

Who needs Citroen really if we have Peugeot again in rallying ?

What comes to Loeb, I'm pretty sure he'll continue rallying.

[F1boat]

Whatever happens, I will continue to respect the WRC. To me this is the only title in motorsport, which equals the one in Formula 1.

[Tom206wrc]

Whatever happens, I will continue to respect the WRC. To me this is the only title in motorsport, which equals the one in Formula 1.



Endurance racing and the famous 24H of Le Mans aren't quite bad neither :p :

[Tom206wrc]

..
Who needs Citroen really if we have Peugeot again in rallying ?



Who needs Skoda S2000 if we have already the VW Polo !!! :D

[Tom206wrc]

I think Loeb could cut it in F1...



I believe he prefers endurance racing since he drove for Pescarolo at the 24H of Le Mans ;)

[F1boat]

He was good at Le Mans!

[AndyRAC]

He was good at Le Mans!


He's good almost everywere!!

[J.Lindstroem]

This is really crazy news i have to say. First i have to say i did'nt know at all that carmakes from other countries than germany were allowed to participate in DTM. Second it did'nt know driving round and round on a track was Citroens style at all.

It have a feeling that Loeb won't follow Citroen to Germany. Why should he? I'm sure he will stay in Wrc, maybe in a privateer Citroen? And when it comes to S2000 maybe in a Peugeot? Also if Loeb goes to racing i think he'd prefer long distans racing such as Lemans 24h.

[paddocknews]

The World Rally Championship will need to change its package if it hopes to keep Citroen around beyond 2009. That’s the overwhelming message Citroen Sport boss Oliver Quesnel has told reporters, after visiting a round of the German touring car championship, DTM, recently.
Greg Johnson (http://www.serviceparknews.com/authors/?authorID=1)
"I went to Hockenheim to look at the DTM race and the promotion of that series is on another planet compared to the WRC," Quesnel told Autosport. "Citroen give me the budget and I have to use it in the best possible way. We have a new car, the C5, which is in the market with the Audi A4 and the Mercedes C-class, so we have to look at things."
While Citroen is currently committed to the WRC through to the close of 2009’s world championship, its future beyond that is yet to be decided. Quesnel believes that to keep the manufacturer in the WRC the series would need to improve its package, including the regions it visits.
"If we are quite sure the WRC is a good idea then we can make the investment in the new car," he said. "But we are not here to race for the sake of the race. We are here to sell cars. I was happy to be in Jordan, but where were the spectators? We don't sell enough cars there - we need to be in China. If there is no promotion in WRC, it doesn't matter that the costs are becoming less and less."
Citroen recently announced it would build a Super 2000 vehicle which would be eligible for the Intercontinental Rally Challenge. The Super 2000 regulations, which are designed to reduce the cost of competition, will form the basis of the next generation of world rally cars.
Another factor that could influence the French company’s decision is the future of its dominate world champion Sebastien Loeb. The reigning champion’s contract expires at the end of 2009 and if, somehow, it were to lose Loeb to a rival squad, it would likely have a negative influence on the company’s decision.
While Loeb has won four world titles with the French car manufacturer the company’s not one to continue for sentimental reasons if the series doesn’t make commercial sense. The company has already shut down one of its WRC operations, announcing in 2005 the season would be the last for PSA Peugeot Citroën brand Peugeot.
Since its withdrawal from the top rung of world rallying, Peugeot has been busy developing a Super 2000 vehicle. Should Citroen withdraw from the WRC after 2009, it’s feasible that Peugeot could rise for a WRC return.


serviceparknews.com

[paddocknews]

The World Rally Championship will need to change its package if it hopes to keep Citroen around beyond 2009. That’s the overwhelming message Citroen Sport boss Oliver Quesnel has told reporters, after visiting a round of the German touring car championship, DTM, recently.

"I went to Hockenheim to look at the DTM race and the promotion of that series is on another planet compared to the WRC," Quesnel told Autosport. "Citroen give me the budget and I have to use it in the best possible way. We have a new car, the C5, which is in the market with the Audi A4 and the Mercedes C-class, so we have to look at things."
While Citroen is currently committed to the WRC through to the close of 2009’s world championship, its future beyond that is yet to be decided. Quesnel believes that to keep the manufacturer in the WRC the series would need to improve its package, including the regions it visits.
"If we are quite sure the WRC is a good idea then we can make the investment in the new car," he said. "But we are not here to race for the sake of the race. We are here to sell cars. I was happy to be in Jordan, but where were the spectators? We don't sell enough cars there - we need to be in China. If there is no promotion in WRC, it doesn't matter that the costs are becoming less and less."
Citroen recently announced it would build a Super 2000 vehicle which would be eligible for the Intercontinental Rally Challenge. The Super 2000 regulations, which are designed to reduce the cost of competition, will form the basis of the next generation of world rally cars.
Another factor that could influence the French company’s decision is the future of its dominate world champion Sebastien Loeb. The reigning champion’s contract expires at the end of 2009 and if, somehow, it were to lose Loeb to a rival squad, it would likely have a negative influence on the company’s decision.
While Loeb has won four world titles with the French car manufacturer the company’s not one to continue for sentimental reasons if the series doesn’t make commercial sense. The company has already shut down one of its WRC operations, announcing in 2005 the season would be the last for PSA Peugeot Citroën brand Peugeot.
Since its withdrawal from the top rung of world rallying, Peugeot has been busy developing a Super 2000 vehicle. Should Citroen withdraw from the WRC after 2009, it’s feasible that Peugeot could rise for a WRC return.


serviceparknews.com

[J.Lindstroem]

The World Rally Championship will need to change its package if it hopes to keep Citroen around beyond 2009.

Well i suppose that is sort of what is going to happen with the new S2000-rules. But i don't think we will keep Citroen in anyway... But what the hell does that matter if we get Peugeot and Fiat and stuff like that. mmm! =)

[Sulland]

We have seen both arms of PSA having rally cars at the same time before, and I am guessing the C3 S2000 with the new chassis that is coming in 09 will happen, and that they are also working on the WRC kit with Turbo and spoilers !

[ShiftingGears]

I believe he prefers endurance racing since he drove for Pescarolo at the 24H of Le Mans ;)

Then again it's easier to find a racing seat in Le Mans than in F1 ;)

If he were to switch to circuit racing I'd like to see him in F1 as I believe he has the ability, and the depth of driving talent is greater in F1 than in endurance racing.

[F1boat]

I think that he is too old to debut in F1. About DTM, it is not too late, probably, but still "Champion of Germany" sounds not as good as "World Champion", although I rate the DTM champions above Andy Priaulx (not to say that Andy is a bad driver, just WTCC IMO is weaker).

[AndyRAC]

I think that he is too old to debut in F1. About DTM, it is not too late, probably, but still "Champion of Germany" sounds not as good as "World Champion", although I rate the DTM champions above Andy Priaulx (not to say that Andy is a bad driver, just WTCC IMO is weaker).

That's a bit harsh, though I know what you mean. I'm not sure people who follow the BTCC would rate him as high as their drivers. But look at who he has beaten?

[MJW]

Follow up story in this weeks edition of Autosport, says that the proposed rule changes for DTM originally planned for introduction in 2009 will now be delayed until 2010. Citroen have expressed an interest in joining the series as a third manufacturer and the organisers and existing teams felt that it would be better if they waited until 2010 to introduce "the new rules car" It is also expected that he DTM will have 6 rounds in Germany with 5 others in Europe. Citroen want more rounds in France. On reading the article I picked up on lots of positive that would encourage Citroen to join, including Citroen joining with MB & Audi in drafting the new technical rules for the series!
Things have a habit of changing in motorsport and business, but the way I feel tonight after reading that it is 100% done deal that Citroen goes to DTM in 2010.

[Daniel]

Follow up story in this weeks edition of Autosport, says that the proposed rule changes for DTM originally planned for introduction in 2009 will now be delayed until 2010. Citroen have expressed an interest in joining the series as a third manufacturer and the organisers and existing teams felt that it would be better if they waited until 2010 to introduce "the new rules car" It is also expected that he DTM will have 6 rounds in Germany with 5 others in Europe. Citroen want more rounds in France. On reading the article I picked up on lots of positive that would encourage Citroen to join, including Citroen joining with MB & Audi in drafting the new technical rules for the series!
Things have a habit of changing in motorsport and business, but the way I feel tonight after reading that it is 100% done deal that Citroen goes to DTM in 2010.
Strange if it's true.

[MJW]

Thats what itsays on page 18 of this weeks Autosport, available at all good newsagents £3.00

[MJW]

Double Post

[BDunnell]

Follow up story in this weeks edition of Autosport, says that the proposed rule changes for DTM originally planned for introduction in 2009 will now be delayed until 2010. Citroen have expressed an interest in joining the series as a third manufacturer and the organisers and existing teams felt that it would be better if they waited until 2010 to introduce "the new rules car" It is also expected that he DTM will have 6 rounds in Germany with 5 others in Europe. Citroen want more rounds in France. On reading the article I picked up on lots of positive that would encourage Citroen to join, including Citroen joining with MB & Audi in drafting the new technical rules for the series!
Things have a habit of changing in motorsport and business, but the way I feel tonight after reading that it is 100% done deal that Citroen goes to DTM in 2010.

Personally, I think the DTM is on a bit of a hiding to nothing with going outside Germany more, but I may be wrong.

[Ghostwalker]

I wonder if Loeb could even get to the top of DTM, even in a top notch Audi. How many F1 drivers have struggled to get on the top? DTM, GT, WTCC,... are all very specific, no stepping in and winning.

Well its quite a difference between formula-car racing and touring car racing.
Schumi said after his ROC lost that he had problems when he could'nt see the weels. Anyway take a look at a WRC Tarmac event and a DTM race the differences arent really that big.

[alleskids]

Chief of Citroen Sport Olivier Quesnel told TouringCarTimes that Citroen will not do DTM ..... at least not in 2009, They are interested, but even if they would enter DTM, 2009 is too soon. He expects that Citroen will be in WRC 2009, but apperently it is stil in the balance, depending on what new stupid rules FIA will make.

[MJW]

Citroen were allways commited to WRC in 2009 - it is 2010 they might go to DTM

[OldF]

Reading the interview of Olivier Quesnel in GP Week, I get the feeling Citroen is not abandoning WRC.

http://mag.gpweek.com/

[Brother John]

Citroën sport chef Olivie, simply spread this rumour to put som press on the rally cirkus of the F.I.A.
They don´t like the current rules and the new calendar for next year. :s mokin:
http://www.rallye-magazin.de/r/wm/d/n/d/2008/05/20/citroen-und-die-dtm/index.html

[Jaanus]

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/68283

Citroen threaten to quit over tactics

[Daniel]

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/68283

Citroen threaten to quit over tactics
Completely agree. If it was Citroen doing it I'd say the same as well. These sort of lame tactics have no place in a real sport.

[DonJippo]

Completely agree. If it was Citroen doing it I'd say the same as well. These sort of lame tactics have no place in a real sport.

Oh come on...get over it...even Citroen would play same tactics if they were in a position that it would benefit them...

[wwbroe]

They have never done it before, even if Loeb could have done it in Greece, when <hirvonen was opening the route. But i think it is above all a big mistake off FIA, they should have kept the rules like they were in the previous years, then we shouldn't have these discussions and it would be clear that nobody can beat Loeb in normal conditions. Let's face it he just the better driver for the moment.

[ShiftingGears]

Who didn't see this happening when this rule was introduced?

Frankly I think Citroen grossly overreacted to it.

[Daniel]

Oh come on...get over it...even Citroen would play same tactics if they were in a position that it would benefit them...
and I would hate them for it just as much.

[MJW]

I find Olivier Quensel's statement a bit childish to say the least, especially when you consider how Citroen benefited from the "confusion" over when a team can change engines between shakedown and rally starts, I also remember them quoting some confusion of the rules in Monte 2002 when they changed tyres when they should not. Personally I think that Loeb has been dominant for so long that the team is getting rattled by how much Jari Matti is destroying them on stages.

[ShiftingGears]

and I would hate them for it just as much.

Boo hoo hoo. You wouldn't see any other sporting teams playing the rules to their advantage in every other sport would you?

[Daniel]

Boo hoo hoo. You wouldn't see any other sporting teams playing the rules to their advantage in every other sport would you?

I don't know of many sports worth watching which penalise the winner for being faster than the others. Boo hoo indeed

[ShiftingGears]

I don't know of many sports worth watching which penalise the winner for being faster than the others. Boo hoo indeed


So why are you blaming the teams for trying to get a competitive advantage when it's the rulemaking which is faulty?



and I would hate them for it just as much.

[Daniel]

So why are you blaming the teams for trying to get a competitive advantage when it's the rulemaking which is faulty?
I'm not blaming the team. I'm saying they suck for using the rules like this.

Anyway Le Mans has started so I'm watching that. They don't penalise drivers for being fast there.....

[Kamikaze]

Anyway Le Mans has started so I'm watching that. They don't penalise drivers for being fast there.....

This means 24 Hours without an "Ford sucks because they use the rules"-Posting ?

Promised ?

[Daniel]

This means 24 Hours without an "Ford sucks because they use the rules"-Posting ?

Promised ?
Not likely :)

[Kamikaze]

to bad...... :rolleyes:

[ShiftingGears]

I'm not blaming the team. I'm saying they suck for using the rules like this.

It's a competitive sport where they want to get advantages whereever possible. Like all sports.

[AndyRAC]

I'm not blaming the team. I'm saying they suck for using the rules like this.

Anyway Le Mans has started so I'm watching that. They don't penalise drivers for being fast there.....

Maybe the organisers, ACO, should make Audi start an hour after everybody else so Peugeot can win. That's how much of a farce this system is.
The sport is the loser in the long run - just makes it look ridiculous - which it is anyway.

[gloomyDAY]

It's a competitive sport where they want to get advantages whereever possible. Like all sports.I agree, but the advantage is artificial and made by a silly rule.

Silly rules equate to silly consequences.
Most people can sense a farce at hand.

[MJW]

http://business.timesonline.co.uk/tol/business/industry_sectors/engineering/article3866855.ece
Not exactly a motorsport story but it gives an insight into which direction the parent company is headed.

[ShiftingGears]

I agree, but the advantage is artificial and made by a silly rule.

I'm not denying that it's a dumb rule, but that is not the team's fault. It's the FIA's for making such a rule.

[Saabaru]

What is this rule?

[gloomyDAY]

What is this rule?
Earth to Saabaru....come in Saabaru....

[alleskids]

What is this rule?


Any technical rule that makes the diesel powered car faster then the petrol powered cars. ASO wanted Audi to stay on Le Mans and they favoured the rules for diesel cars so much that petrol cars never ever get a change against the diesels. So Peugeot jumped in and even won Le Mans this year.

[gloomyDAY]

Any technical rule that makes the diesel powered car faster then the petrol powered cars. ASO wanted Audi to stay on Le Mans and they favoured the rules for diesel cars so much that petrol cars never ever get a change against the diesels. So Peugeot jumped in and even won Le Mans this year.I didn't know that Peugeot won LeMans. I better get Tom Kristensen's trophy back!

Anyway, I think Saabaru was mentioning the rule regarding the running order of each WRC event. The drivers used to run in reverse order in accordance to points, but now it's the opposite.

[pantealex]

Any technical rule that makes the diesel powered car faster then the petrol powered cars. ASO wanted Audi to stay on Le Mans and they favoured the rules for diesel cars so much that petrol cars never ever get a change against the diesels. So Peugeot jumped in and even won Le Mans this year.
Peugeot came 2nd, Audi won!

[alleskids]

>shame button on< It had to be... Peugeot even nearly won Le Mans >shame button off<

[DonJippo]

Anyway, I think Saabaru was mentioning the rule regarding the running order of each WRC event. The drivers used to run in reverse order in accordance to points, but now it's the opposite.

No they did not.

[gloomyDAY]

No they did not.
What do you mean? :confused:

[gloomyDAY]

Have any of you seen the new Citroen commercials (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GMQnPWjK5pE)?

DTM is the right place for their automotive ambitions.

[DonJippo]

What do you mean? :confused:

Drivers run first day in points order and second & third day in accordance to 15 fastest in reverse order.

[Woodeye]

Have any of you seen the new Citroen commercials (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GMQnPWjK5pE)?

DTM is the right place for their automotive ambitions.

But there's no snow in DTM. They should stick to WRC. ;)

[gloomyDAY]

Drivers run first day in points order and second & third day in accordance to 15 fastest in reverse order.Right-o!


But there's no snow in DTM. They should stick to WRC. ;) :D I agree with you.

But does that make financial sense in the long-run?

[Woodeye]

Right-o!

:D I agree with you.

But does that make financial sense in the long-run?

I think it's impossible to find any motorsport where there's financial sense. I think it's a question on which motorsport you lose the most less...

[gloomyDAY]

I think it's impossible to find any motorsport where there's financial sense. I think it's a question on which motorsport you lose the most less...Wait a minute.

I thought manufacturers' were out there to make money.
The resources invested into a team, say Citroen WRT, are expected to pay dividends in the showroom. That brings me back to the original point of this thread.

Citroen could go race in DTM because of the different cars they are now producing (high-end) and have a lot more exposure to consumers as a result. Most of their cars sell in Europe, so what would be the point of traveling all over the world advertising to markets of no concern to Citroen?

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