Miller Puts Out The Call. Varsha Too.

[pits4me]

Robin gives a summary of Danica's accomplishment then goes on to plead with Tony George about listening to Tony Cotman about incorporating some of the chassis features from Champ Car for the 2009 season.

DP01 and Turbo's, Push to Pass, paddle shifters, option tires, exciting standing starts like Will Powers. I didn't realize he supported CC's technical achievements as much as he did. Then to have Bob Varsha mention similar wishes.

Hopefully someone at 16th and tonygeorgetown is listening.

[nanders]

Robin gives a summary of Danica's accomplishment then goes on to plead with Tony George about listening to Tony Cotman about incorporating some of the chassis features from Champ Car for the 2009 season.

DP01 and Turbo's, Push to Pass, paddle shifters, option tires, exciting standing starts like Will Powers. I didn't realize he supported CC's technical achievements as much as he did. Then to have Bob Varsha mention similar wishes.

Hopefully someone at 16th and tonygeorgetown is listening.

Would you know where this is?

[maxmach]

It was on the speed report, which I find a hell' va lot better than windtunnel, which...usually...has nothing but naskar on it.

[weeflyonthewall]

From RM's notebook:
http://auto-racing.speedtv.com/article/miller-open-wheel-notebook//P1/


• The true tragedy of Sunday’s final Champ Car race is that we won’t see those good-looking Panoz chassis or hear that sweet whine of the turbocharged Cosworth anymore. Now it’s two more years of those ugly, noisy IRL cars. Hopefully, Tony Cotman can convince Tony George to let him have a major say in the 2010 design.

• Since Cotman introduced the standing starts last season, there has not been one first-turn pileup and Sunday’s was clean and fast with Power getting an amazing shot from fourth to first.

• In case you hadn’t noticed, Will Power is a bad ass on street circuits. airports and road courses. When he figures out ovals, look out.

• T. George needs to take some money out of the Gene Simmons Fund and transfer it to Paul Tracy Needs A Ride.

• Champ Car gave us push-to-pass, optional tires and standing starts—all things the IRL needs to adopt.

• How about A.J. Allmendinger and Scott Speed coming back to single-seaters to go with Ryan Hunter-Reay, A.J. Foyt IV, Patrick, Rahal and Andretti?

[!!WALDO!!]

Push to Pass, paddle shifters, option tires,

So did Marty Reid and Scott Goodyear.

(NO REFERENCE TO ANY POSTER, LIVING, DEAD or NOT YET BORN.)

[BrentJackson]

Push to pass was a stupid idea. The rest of Miller's points - I gotta agree. And Power and his Aussie countryman are gonna own Indycars one day soon, provided Briscoe can stop crashing and KVRT can give Power a regularly competitive car.

Allmendinger is a matter of time, IMO. He's sucking in NASCAR whereas Vickers is doing really well. Speed however is probably gonna be Allmendinger's replacement at RBR. Would love to be wrong, though.

[pits4me]

A lot of drivers and fans like the push to pass. Another tool in the bag. Same with optional tires which even F1 adopted.

[gofastandwynn]

Turbos - Fine. DP-01 - Best use as paper weights or flower planters at this point, Never coming back in IRL use.

[portlandCARTfan]

Only part of Miller's words I question is putting the blame on Honda of Japan. I know Robert Clarke of HPD flew with Tony George to Tokyo to try to maintain a unified Long Beach.

Kudos to whoever open the checkbook to get such a quality field for LB. Vasser addition was genius. Whoever convinced JF to put Tracy in seat deserves thanks, or a witness protection program. At least it gave fans one last shot to see and hear the departing champcars.

After 12 years of the split we can accept some bumps. We are now unified. We will have a new car soon. With TG showing more openness than ever and Cottman onboard we can look to a bright future.

We did get more air time and column inches this weekend than any non-Indy date in many years. It is all good.

[call_me_andrew]

Robin gives a summary of Danica's accomplishment then goes on to plead with Tony George about listening to Tony Cotman about incorporating some of the chassis features from Champ Car for the 2009 season.

DP01 and Turbo's, Push to Pass, paddle shifters, option tires, exciting standing starts like Will Powers. I didn't realize he supported CC's technical achievements as much as he did. Then to have Bob Varsha mention similar wishes.

Hopefully someone at 16th and tonygeorgetown is listening.

"Achievements" isn't the word I would use.

[ShiftingGears]

Push to pass was a stupid idea.

Yep. Solve the problem by having less wings!!

[ezhop7]

I don't like the option tires or standing starts. I think turbo chargers will up the cost maintaining the engines, but the push to pass maybe a good ideal.

I would like to see at least 3 or 4 different chassis providers for example: Dallara, Panoz, Riley and Lola.

[jwhite9185]

They said on the SkySports broadcast the other day that a few manafacturers are thinking of returning. As he said returning, im guessing thats Toyota, Chevy, Ford or Mercedes for engines and Lola or Panoz for chassis.

I'd like to see a tyre war at some point too.

[MarcoCheever]

I don't get the love for standing starts ?
nothing is more exciting than seeing the cars take the green from a flying start I've seen both F1 USGP and Indy 500

And push to pass I dont get it why limit the engine most of the time to give one minute of more power just have 100% available all the time

[electron]

I do not like those gadgets like P2P and even standing start is un-indycar-like. don't do it. may I add Champcar did it all and look what has happened nonetheless....
what's next: mandatory pit stop windows? get away with all that and give me a clean simple and basic indycar race with and indy-style start (rolling starts are called like that for a reason). it aint broken so do not fix it.

also the engine is something the engine manufacturer(s) must define, whatever they want to advertise or push technology wise is good for me.

call me old school.

[DrDomm]

First, don't IC's have paddle shifters this year?

Second, P2P is an old gadget from the days of CART, when the rev limiter was raised and the fuel mixture changed (I think that's what they did)...remember the pit calls to Zanardi..."use the button". Loved it! They may have even had this in the IndyCar days. Can't remember. But I think it was basically limited by the amount of fuel it would consume, and the strain on the engine. The current boost-derived P2P, with arbitrary time limit, is a way to try to emulate that situation. I think it worked.

Third, engine manufacturers are what brings the money. Get them interested, and the teams will have the necessary funding...and granted, the series will have a new set of issues to deal with. I'm all for it.

Fourth, standing starts work better for road/street courses. Rolling starts for ovals. What a great compromise. Isn't that what the ICS should be now?

Fifth, absolutely more chassis manufacturers...at least 3.

[ShiftingGears]

I don't get the love for standing starts ?
nothing is more exciting than seeing the cars take the green from a flying start I've seen both F1 USGP and Indy 500

How is any rolling start more exciting than seeing a driver rocketing off the start line to gain three positions by the first corner? (ala Will Power at Long Beach)

You know, having driver talent on race day playing a part in who leads into turn 1?

[F1boat]

I prefer rolling starts for Indy Car. Indy Car is Indy Car and should not turn in F1-wannabe. Plus, I find it more exciting than standing start - it's faster.

[all13d]

I wouldn't mind having multiple types of tyres, but they shouldn't force the drivers to use both. It's a gimmick to improve the spectacle, just like push-to-pass or mandatory pit windows.

[JSH]

I prefer rolling starts for Indy Car. Indy Car is Indy Car and should not turn in F1-wannabe. Plus, I find it more exciting than standing start - it's faster.

:up: If you want standing starts watch one of the many Euro series'.

[Cole_Trickle]

First, don't IC's have paddle shifters this year?

Second, P2P is an old gadget from the days of CART, when the rev limiter was raised and the fuel mixture changed (I think that's what they did)...remember the pit calls to Zanardi..."use the button". Loved it! They may have even had this in the IndyCar days. Can't remember. But I think it was basically limited by the amount of fuel it would consume, and the strain on the engine. The current boost-derived P2P, with arbitrary time limit, is a way to try to emulate that situation. I think it worked.

Third, engine manufacturers are what brings the money. Get them interested, and the teams will have the necessary funding...and granted, the series will have a new set of issues to deal with. I'm all for it.

Fourth, standing starts work better for road/street courses. Rolling starts for ovals. What a great compromise. Isn't that what the ICS should be now?

Fifth, absolutely more chassis manufacturers...at least 3.


I beleive you're right, they already have paddle shifters this year, however, I much prefer the lever that the driver has to take a hand off the steering wheel to pull. Seeing drivers wrestle the cars with one hand under brakes on a rough surface was always exciting to watch from the incar.

Rolling starts I also like -even on road courses.

I liked the turbo engines

the varying boost/fuel maps of the old CART was good, I didn't like push-to-pass though.

While the Indycar car is no oil painting, the DP01 was too boring, it didn't have it's own identity, it looked halfway between an F1 car and an A1GP car. An Indycar is clearly recognisable. (I liked the old Reynard, bigger and heavier) More chassis and engine manufacturers would be great.

[garyshell]

They said on the SkySports broadcast the other day that a few manafacturers are thinking of returning. As he said returning, im guessing thats Toyota, Chevy, Ford or Mercedes for engines and Lola or Panoz for chassis.

I'd like to see a tyre war at some point too.

Careful what you wish for. The last thing we need right now is a cost escalation. History is rife with examples of the entry of manufacturers driving up costs without kicking in the dollars themselves to offset this. We have to tread lightly, especially right now as we are trying to attract new sponsors. Don't get me wrong. I too would like to see more manufacturers, but not at the cost of loosing teams because they could no longer afford to compete.

Gary

[weeflyonthewall]

"Achievements" isn't the word I would use.

Will you always see CART/Champ Car in a negative way?

[evo5_mat]

Talking of costs escalating, speaking to a number of teams during the weekend at Long beach. They are finding prices of the dallara parts about 4 times as much as the panoz was?
Which seemed suprising when i 1st heard it but seemed to be repeated down the pit lane, now why this when its a older chassis and in theory in time parts should be cheaper than a 1 year old car.
They were also finding cost increase with time working on the car, ok initially yes you have to find the correct routine, but they say its not a car friendly car to work on compared to what they have had through the years.

[pits4me]

evo, the weak dollar doesn't help when you have to import parts and tubs from Europe. Then add the damage risk of ovals and you have to fly parts over for the next weekend and prices really escalate. Teams like Penske, AGR, TCGR, have the resources to make their own versions of parts which are technically superior to the standard Dallara parts that were given to the transition teams.

We saw the same problem in Champ a few years ago. When Lola refused to consider setting up a US based manufacturing facility, Elan got the nod.
The only way to level the field is to introduce a new chassis formula just like Champ did two years ago.

Next they should encourage some options on the engine side. If they want to attract more manufacturers to participate and support open wheel they need to offer a return worthwhile investing in. For that reason why not base the engine formula on emerging technicnology? Something exciting like the twin turbo V6's being rolled out by all the major manufacturers? Ford introduced its EcoBoost Gas Turbo Direct Inject 3.5L V-6 concept at this years Detroit auto show. Some of the Japanese manufacturers like Nissan have similar developments with the new GT-R 3.8L

Running a series on outdated technology is called NASCAR. A stroll through the ALMS paddock and talking to teams there confirmed several are getting support from the manufacturers. In some cases the primary sponsor is part of the package. Thats why many teams are now becoming service organizations. Forsythe is a prime example. Rahal's 2009 BMW campaign another.

To be successful and build open wheel ICS needs to quit looking to the past and focus on the future. The same future should include as much racing bling as they can get their hands on. The B2B money is attached to new products and technology, not outdated ones.

[pits4me]

DP-01 - Best use as paper weights or flower planters at this point, Never coming back in IRL use.

I guess we're saddled with the expensive import from Europe that costs 4 times the Panoz. The DP-01's have a new home and it doesn't sound like it will be the ICS.

[garyshell]

:up: If you want standing starts watch one of the many Euro series'.

Why not include standing starts where it makes sense based on the track layout? That is, where the back of the pack can't clear the last corner preceding the start finish line before the green flag drops. No standing starts on ovals, of course. This just increases the whole notion of the ICS being the most diverse series in the world with long and short ovals, natural terrain road courses and street venues. Add standing and rolling starts to the mix just ups the cache of the drivers.

Gary

P.S. I have HUGE personal favor to ask all of you. Please take a look at this thread that had to be moved to the chit chat forum: http://www.motorsportforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=126569

[MarcoCheever]

How is any rolling start more exciting than seeing a driver rocketing off the start line to gain three positions by the first corner? (ala Will Power at Long Beach)

You know, having driver talent on race day playing a part in who leads into turn 1?


the above is answered this year on May 25th

be there

[-Helix-]

Push-to-pass and option tires?

No thanks, leave the gimmicks to the series that need them, like F1 and their parades.

The DP-01 is done for and gone. Get over it people. They're considered outdated now as a new version has already been produced (Superleague Formula car). One more season with the Dallara isn't that big of a deal.

Turbos and standing starts are fine by me though.

[tifosi77]

the above is answered this year on May 25th

be there
Fair play.

Rolling starts on May 25th, standing starts everywhere else.

;)

I think it makes sense to have rolling starts on ovals, standing starts on road/street circuits. Before Sunday, I didn't really have a preference, altho I conceded that Champ Car had not conducted a proper rolling start in perhaps five years. But after witnessing my first standing start in person.... what can I say? I'm hooked.

[-Helix-]

Will you always see CART/Champ Car in a negative way?

Not CART, but Champ Car definitely. (Actually I see CART positively. I hate when people try to pretend CART is the same thing as Champ Car though. CART was actually a good series.)

Trying a second attempt at something that already went bankrupt isn't a very good business plan in my eyes. I lost all interest in the series when it died the first time. Champ Car was like trying to re-animate a corpse. A process that would inevitably fail. And once something is dead, it can't die again. Therefore Champ Car was always dead. At least to me.

[MarcoCheever]

Fair play.

Rolling starts on May 25th, standing starts everywhere else.

;)

I think it makes sense to have rolling starts on ovals, standing starts on road/street circuits. Before Sunday, I didn't really have a preference, altho I conceded that Champ Car had not conducted a proper rolling start in perhaps five years. But after witnessing my first standing start in person.... what can I say? I'm hooked.

cool, well played

[xtlm]

DP01 and Turbo's, Push to Pass, paddle shifters, option tires, exciting standing starts like Will Powers. I didn't realize he supported CC's technical achievements as much as he did. Then to have Bob Varsha mention similar wishes.

Ill take the Turbo, paddle shifters (didnt they just incorperate this though...), optional tires (Not a mandatory rule on using all types though...)

I dont like push to pass and standing starts though

[nigelred5]

Once you see a standing start in person, it's hard to imagine anything else.

[xtlm]

oh ya, i also like the old standard shifting method also over the new paddle shifters

and my thing with rolling starts and standing starts is that: with rolling starts, qualifying means more.

[nanders]

The DP-01's have a new home and it doesn't sound like it will be the ICS.

"The DP-01's have a new home"

Do you have a link?

[ShiftingGears]

the above is answered this year on May 25th

be there

Standing starts for road courses, rolling for ovals ;)

[indycool]

IMO, the P2P has very little chance of being considered. The ICS already has "rich" or "lean" capability for the driver to regulate fuel, i.e., speed, so why do something else?

[DrDomm]

IC, since you brought up fuel maps...that's something I think needs to be abandoned. It just lead to parading around, trying to conserve fuel, and not taking any chances. Just my opinion.

Anyway, the more I read this thread...the more depressed I get. The IRL won because of the Indy 500, not because of some great formula. The IRL faithful seem to have trouble admitting that anything CART or ChampCar did was a good idea. ChampCar didn't fail because of P2P, the DP01, option tires, or standing starts. It failed because it didn't have the 500 to give it meaning and attract sponsors.

My fear is that TG will feel, as it appears some here do, that the IRL's victory is some "vote of confidence" that the IRL's formula is right. Rather, it should be interpreted as the failure of a divided American openwheel racing community, that can only be restored to it's former glory by combining the best of both sides and using the 500 as the cornerstone.

If TG is happy with the current IRL formula, I'm afraid I won't be a supporter for very long. Right now, I'm tolerating it and waiting for some changes/improvements in the future. Some of those changes should be things that ChampCar did.

[nigelred5]

"The DP-01's have a new home"

Do you have a link?


I think he's referring to a museum :s :

[nigelred5]

With a spec series, I feel they need the things like the option tires to create more diversity in the equipment. It's been good in CCWS and F1, why not use it? What's wrong with the paddle shift if it helps drivers keep it off the walls? It's not like they were rowing through an H pattern with the standard shifter anyway. I drive more or less a paddle shift with my tiptronic every day. Standing starts are good for a road course no matter how you argue it, Especially on street courses. They have proven themselves.

Now power steering................. UH, :down: :down: no place for that in open wheel cars IMHO.

[grantb4]

I don't get the love for standing starts ?


Because it's fair. Everytime. No getting screwed by the flag man.

[call_me_andrew]

Will you always see CART/Champ Car in a negative way?

Of course not. I liked CART. I even watch old races on YouTube. But I'll always think of Champ Car as being like Weekend at Bernie's. You're pretending something isn't dead when it clearly is.


And push to pass I dont get it why limit the engine most of the time to give one minute of more power just have 100% available all the time

Well when Cosworth was the only engine supplier, the engines had to be detuned and built to last 1,200 miles between rebuilds. Cosworth engineers determined that they could allow 60 seconds of extra horsepower per race with out risking excess wear or damage to the engine.

[bblocker68]

I would be in total support of rolling starts if the cars were brought to the s/f line properly. Champcar's rolling starts were horrible!!! The field was never assembled correctly. You need to slow down and get the cars in formation 2 by 2 before waving the flag. And if they use a rolling start for future IndyCar tracks like Cleveland or Portland, I would make the S/F line closer to turn 1 to avoid the cars having too much speed before hitting those tight turns on cold tires.

As for P2P, I think fuel mapping takes care oif the need for that. I hate gimmicks anyway. Make the cars capable of passing with more ground effects and we wont have to worry about that stuff.

Option tires? Gimmick.

The Champcar options were just "tools" for teams to keep up with Sebastian Bourdais, who wiped the floor with the rest of the field 80% of the time. Now that he's gone, I could live without them.

[pits4me]

"The DP-01's have a new home"

Do you have a link?

People that own them.