The return of Cosworth to F1 and the Purchase of SA

[Powered by Cosworth]

Just been on the phone to my pap who's out doing the last champ car race, got some more details on Paul Stoddart and Kevin Kalkhoven buying Super Aguri.

They'd run Honda engines for the rest of this year then switch to Cosworth engines made in the USA for 2009. Kevin Kalkhoven is a very rich man so they would easily be able to get a new chassis up and running before next season.

This would be Stoddys chance to finally run a semi-successful team, as they won't have to run it on a shoe string budget anymore.

[Ranger]

I don't think Super Aguri have the facilities to fully build their own chassis, hence they need manufacturer support to run the team properly. And because customer cars are soon to be outlawed, it'd seem a little silly for Paul and Kevin to buy into the team (unless I'm missing something?)

[Valve Bounce]

Kevin Kalkhoven is a very rich man so they would easily be able to get a new chassis up and running before next season.

.

How? :confused:

[philipbain]

How? :confused:

You would be amazed by how a big wad of cash can make things happen! If you have the money you don't have to build a car at your own facility, yes, F1 is outlawing the sharing of chassis technology between teams but you can still get a sub-contractor to build the car for you and in the UK there is plenty of choice of where to go to get the work done. I think this would be a sensible way to go about getting a car done for next season whilst the team puts in place the infrastructure to do it all in house.

I don't think Super Aguri have the facilities to fully build their own chassis, hence they need manufacturer support to run the team properly. And because customer cars are soon to be outlawed, it'd seem a little silly for Paul and Kevin to buy into the team (unless I'm missing something?)

Super Aguri are based at the old Arrows factory in Leafield. It still has all the facilities needed to begin (re-start) chassis manufacture.

The only things missing are the workforce.

[BDunnell]

Don't certain past experiences, especially that of Lola, demonstrate that starting to develop what would in effect be a new team with a new self-built car at this stage is fraught with potential problems?

[V12]

Don't certain past experiences, especially that of Lola, demonstrate that starting to develop what would in effect be a new team with a new self-built car at this stage is fraught with potential problems?

The same year Stewart entered with a start up team and did very well. I admit they had factory Ford backing so a bit different, but Lola's problem was they had earmarked 1998 for their debut, then sponsor Mastercard demanded a 1997 start, and this was either very late in 1996 or early 1997. As a result they had to rush a car into service with no windtunnel testing - I think the only shake down they did of the T97/30 was some straight line systems checks (I may be wrong there).

And then the funds promptly dried up thanks to the quirky funding system they had in place (It was contingent on membership to some new credit card scheme linked to the team IIRC).

IF this take over of the team goes through soon and they get everything together in good time, then hopefully they can make a respectable effort. Yes they'll probably be propping up the grid come next year but I doubt they'd embarrass themselves Lola fashion.

And if the alternative is the team disappearing completely, I know what I'd rather see :)

[Stuartf12007]

wont happen

[BDunnell]

The same year Stewart entered with a start up team and did very well. I admit they had factory Ford backing so a bit different, but Lola's problem was they had earmarked 1998 for their debut, then sponsor Mastercard demanded a 1997 start, and this was either very late in 1996 or early 1997. As a result they had to rush a car into service with no windtunnel testing - I think the only shake down they did of the T97/30 was some straight line systems checks (I may be wrong there).

And then the funds promptly dried up thanks to the quirky funding system they had in place (It was contingent on membership to some new credit card scheme linked to the team IIRC).

IF this take over of the team goes through soon and they get everything together in good time, then hopefully they can make a respectable effort. Yes they'll probably be propping up the grid come next year but I doubt they'd embarrass themselves Lola fashion.

And if the alternative is the team disappearing completely, I know what I'd rather see :)

I should say that I wasn't drawing any direct parallels with Lola, whose project was doomed from the moment it was brought forward a year, but starting effectively from scratch now could well prove over-ambitious. I hope not.

[Valve Bounce]

You would be amazed by how a big wad of cash can make things happen! If you have the money you don't have to build a car at your own facility, yes, F1 is outlawing the sharing of chassis technology between teams but you can still get a sub-contractor to build the car for you and in the UK there is plenty of choice of where to go to get the work done. I think this would be a sensible way to go about getting a car done for next season whilst the team puts in place the infrastructure to do it all in house.

Well yeah!! I suppose Budgen down in Barnet could help stump up an F1 chassis for you in a couple of weeks. And Tesco from Finchley might step in to help out. Then the service station at Cockfosters could help stuff the engine in it, and get an off duty bus driver to help test it - no problem.

[Bagwan]

Just been on the phone to my pap who's out doing the last champ car race, got some more details on Paul Stoddart and Kevin Kalkhoven buying Super Aguri.

They'd run Honda engines for the rest of this year then switch to Cosworth engines made in the USA for 2009. Kevin Kalkhoven is a very rich man so they would easily be able to get a new chassis up and running before next season.

This would be Stoddys chance to finally run a semi-successful team, as they won't have to run it on a shoe string budget anymore.

I sure hope you're right , PbC .

I never was a big fan of Stoddart , but I always hoped for Minardi to do well .

Any word on name for the team ?
Super Minardi ?
Super Perrenial Backmarkers ?
Super Minardi Underdogs ?

They just have to keep the word "super" in there .

Seriously , though , I would think a deal to include Taku might have the engines come pretty cheaply .
If there was ever a time when it could work , it is now , as the changes in store for next year have everyone redesigning furiously . And , nobody will know who got it right until next spring .
If there's a wad of cash to play with , they will be tempting a lot of people with the idea of bringing Minardi back from the dead .

I sure hope you're right about this . We can't lose them . Bernie can't afford it .

[markabilly]

yeah, someone has got to be there to fisih last....Williams should love to have them as should force india and all the rest of the whiners. Take out those two teams and teams such as toyota, India and honda will be battling for last place.....

[Powered by Cosworth]

Seriously , though , I would think a deal to include Taku might have the engines come pretty cheaply .


With Kalkhoven owning Cosworth I think it's a dead cert that if all this goes through they won't have Honda engines in 09.

Also the potential firing of Max Mosely is encouragement for Stoddy to get back in f1

[ChrisS]

Just been on the phone to my pap who's out doing the last champ car race, got some more details on Paul Stoddart and Kevin Kalkhoven buying Super Aguri.

They'd run Honda engines for the rest of this year then switch to Cosworth engines made in the USA for 2009. Kevin Kalkhoven is a very rich man so they would easily be able to get a new chassis up and running before next season.

This would be Stoddys chance to finally run a semi-successful team, as they won't have to run it on a shoe string budget anymore.

Kalkhoven is not that rich, he is a multimillionaire but that's poor by F1 standards , the best he could do IMHO is a Minardi like budget.

also isn't Cosworth still based mainly in the UK with the US division only for Champcar engine rebuilds?

[Bagwan]

With Kalkhoven owning Cosworth I think it's a dead cert that if all this goes through they won't have Honda engines in 09.

Also the potential firing of Max Mosely is encouragement for Stoddy to get back in f1

It does seem so , but , what I meant was that SA was originally the "Sato safety net" , set up by Honda to counter the backlash after not keeping Taku in the A-team seat .
Dumping the team and Sato might still be a PR mess that they'd like solved , so they might have a reasonable partnership out of them for '09 ,if the Cozzie is not ready .

[Powered by Cosworth]

Kalkhoven is not that rich, he is a multimillionaire but that's poor by F1 standards , the best he could do IMHO is a Minardi like budget.

also isn't Cosworth still based mainly in the UK with the US division only for Champcar engine rebuilds?

I was sure Kalkhoven was neigh on being a billionaire. And the Cosworth HQ in Northampton is pretty much dead, especially when it comes to F1. There's almost no original staff there from when they did engines in the 1990's + 2000's.

[gloomyDAY]

Just been on the phone to my pap who's out doing the last champ car race, got some more details on Paul Stoddart and Kevin Kalkhoven buying Super Aguri.

They'd run Honda engines for the rest of this year then switch to Cosworth engines made in the USA for 2009. Kevin Kalkhoven is a very rich man so they would easily be able to get a new chassis up and running before next season.

This would be Stoddys chance to finally run a semi-successful team, as they won't have to run it on a shoe string budget anymore.Who are you to make such bold claims? :dozey:

Customer cars are being outlawed and what you're suggesting is not going to happen. I'm not sure why billionaires are keen on throwing away money to be back markers. Force India have a clear goal in mind that by the year 2010 they will be on the podium at the Indian Grand Prix, but Super Aguri are screwed because they'll be banned.

[Placid]

Who are you to make such bold claims? :dozey:

Customer cars are being outlawed and what you're suggesting is not going to happen. I'm not sure why billionaires are keen on throwing away money to be back markers. Force India have a clear goal in mind that by the year 2010 they will be on the podium at the Indian Grand Prix, but Super Aguri are screwed because they'll be banned.

If Stoddart and Kevin get themselves together, they can bring the Panoz chassis, design it to F1 standards since there is a contract of the Concorde
that by 2010, all teams must design their chassis. This might be the
opportunity to get an American back to F1.
(That if it true). I need to see it to believe it.

and the other question is - What about the Prodrive project?

[BDunnell]

I'm not sure why billionaires are keen on throwing away money to be back markers.

They always have and they always will, just as there have always been pay drivers in F1. We may find it odd, but if they want to throw good money after bad in the pursuit of zero success, who are we to do anything about it? Just being in F1 seems to be enough — never mind the fact that the commitment may end up being a short-term one. Same goes for billionaires buying into football clubs and never winning anything. It can be damaging to the clubs or F1 teams, but there's not a lot that can be done.


Force India have a clear goal in mind that by the year 2010 they will be on the podium at the Indian Grand Prix, but Super Aguri are screwed because they'll be banned.

Well, as difficult as it may be, there is an obvious way out of the problem — to design their own chassis. I don't really agree with banning customer cars, but at least the rules will be as clear as possible to would-be new entrants. There ought to be no grey areas.

[Valve Bounce]

Force India have a clear goal in mind that by the year 2010 they will be on the podium at the Indian Grand Prix, ..................

To quote John Wayne:"That'll be the day"

[Garry Walker]

With the engine rules being what they are now, how would Cosworths entry be regulated?

[jens]

With the engine rules being what they are now, how would Cosworths entry be regulated?

'Freeze' the engine they had in 2006? :D

[ChrisS]

The engine specs were frozen based on the engines the were used in the 2006 Japanese Grand Prix.

Cosworth had an engine in that GP and probably submitted its specs to the FIA so they cant develop a new engine. Any future entries should use that engine.

[gloomyDAY]

With the engine rules being what they are now, how would Cosworths entry be regulated?LOL!

I'm not sure, but I guess a freeze of a 2 year-old engine sounds sensible. :p

[Jag_Warrior]

Sorry, but I'll put this one in the "I'll believe it when I see it" file.

Kalkhoven wanted to get into F1 before getting involved with Forsythe to purchase the CART and Cosworth assets several years ago. WHther he's a billionaire or (just) a millionaire, I don't know. He is quite wealthy though. But his failing is that he doesn't seem to have any skills in managing motor racing assets. He also seems to lack the foresight to hire managers who do have the skills or acumen to manage those assets.

If there is to be a Kalkhoven/Stoddart entry in F1, I'd expect it to be run like Kalkhoven's Champ Car team, and the series itself: cheap, unprofessional and unsponsored. Lots of big talk and no results to back it up. This character makes Tom Walkinshaw and Andy Evans look like competent, straight shooters.

I just hope that he and Forsythe sell Cosworth Racing before they (totally) muck it up too.

[jso1985]

whatever happens I hope it doesn't involve Stoddart coming back...

[Jag_Warrior]

If David Richards couldn't find the proper backing, I doubt that Kalkhoven's amateur hour approach will bring in any $. He's probably just using Stoddart to introduce him to victims... er, I mean potential backers.

No worries. IMO, this guy doesn't have near the jazz to get into F1... with or without Stoddart.

[Valve Bounce]

Lots of gloomy talk here about Stoddart and Kalkhoven here.
To make it worse, if they froze the design of that Cosworth, I just hope that some improvements would be permitted to make it reliable.

[Stuartf12007]

for the second time...."it wont happen"

and if it did it would be a massive waste of time

[gloomyDAY]

for the second time...."it wont happen"

and if it did it would be a massive waste of timePrecisely.

The thread starter is lying. Remember how this started?
Powered By Cosworth called his dad who is at the Long Beach Grand Prix. Doesn't mean a thing!

[weeflyonthewall]

If Stoddart and Kevin get themselves together, they can bring the Panoz chassis, design it to F1 standards since there is a contract of the Concorde
that by 2010, all teams must design their chassis. This might be the
opportunity to get an American back to F1.
(That if it true). I need to see it to believe it.

and the other question is - What about the Prodrive project?

American Team? Australian Team with Will Power? I think an all Australian Team with a Cosworth built Holden is a wild dream but a sweet one.

[wmcot]

I'm not sure why billionaires are keen on throwing away money to be back markers.

Tax write-offs! :)

[Powered by Cosworth]

The thread starter is lying. Remember how this started?
Powered By Cosworth called his dad who is at the Long Beach Grand Prix. Doesn't mean a thing!

He works for Stoddy, his 'engine man' and Minardi refueller during F1 and at the Long Beach race :rolleyes:

[SGWilko]

If David Richards couldn't find the proper backing, I doubt that Kalkhoven's amateur hour approach will bring in any $. He's probably just using Stoddart to introduce him to victims... er, I mean potential backers.

No worries. IMO, this guy doesn't have near the jazz to get into F1... with or without Stoddart.

Was it a case insufficient backing, or merely, in the current climate, based on Prodrives business model, his entry would be diasallowed in a couple of years as he was going to be a customer MercMcLaren team?

[SGWilko]

Lots of gloomy talk here about Stoddart and Kalkhoven here.
To make it worse, if they froze the design of that Cosworth, I just hope that some improvements would be permitted to make it reliable.

It wasn't unrelaiable, that was Williams fault, either gearbox or water/oil leaks, for which (lest we expect nothing else) Frank has put his hands up and admitted as much.

The problem with the Cossy unit is that it's rate of development was woefully lacking, so it would be no match for the current treams' units.

[gloomyDAY]

He works for Stoddy, his 'engine man' and Minardi refueller during F1 and at the Long Beach race :rolleyes: Here. (http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/9/9a/Choco_chip_cookie.jpg)

[Powered by Cosworth]

Here. (http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/9/9a/Choco_chip_cookie.jpg)

Christ, I was just telling you who my source was, not just some guy at Long Beach but somebody reliable.

[xtlm]

this happens and he brings PT along for the ride

aww yeah

[ChrisS]

If Stoddart and Kevin get themselves together, they can bring the Panoz chassis, design it to F1 standards since there is a contract of the Concorde
that by 2010, all teams must design their chassis. This might be the
opportunity to get an American back to F1.
(That if it true). I need to see it to believe it.

and the other question is - What about the Prodrive project?

If they try to modify the DP01 to make it an F1 car then I expect them to be as competitive as Lola was in 1997 when they modified an f3000 car to F1 standards

[Stuartf12007]

Id rather see the Smurfs in charge of a team than stoddart. :p

[Valve Bounce]

I've heard of people clutching at straws, but this is akin to clinging to an icebreg. :(

[xtlm]

If they try to modify the DP01 to make it an F1 car then I expect them to be as competitive as Lola was in 1997 when they modified an f3000 car to F1 standards

it would make a neat story though

[SGWilko]

Id rather see the Smurfs in charge of a team than stoddart. :p

It'll never happen, Smurfs aren't really real...........

[Valve Bounce]

It'll never happen, Smurfs aren't really real...........

Yes they are!! I can verify that - I used to watch them on TV.

[Bagwan]

I've heard of people clutching at straws, but this is akin to clinging to an icebreg. :(

What the hell is is an "icebreg" .
If it's iceberg you're thinking of , I think there's every reason to cling to every possibility for a continuance of SA , if for no reason but to spur interest of others .

Why be so negative on this ?

Take the glass as half full here , Valve , and be hopeful that anyone will take up the challenge , even Stoddart .

Your friend Schnell's son is depending on it .

[JSH]

they can bring the Panoz chassis, design it to F1 standards

To design a chassis to F1 standards you need to start with a clean sheet. "Bringing" the old Champcar Chassis will be of no help.

Modifying and OLD F1 chassis to new regs is already a big job, just ask Aguri.

[PSfan]

Well, IF (and that is a very big if at that) Stoddart and KK bought SA, and decided to be based in the US, then it would make some sense to get Panos to develop their car, however, I would also expect it to be some child of this years Aguri chassis and the dp01/whatever they call it for super league, developed to fit next years regs.

However, I would also like to add that I think Forsythe would have to be in on this deal to, being part owner of Cosworth, and based on the fact he wasn't at Longbeach, and isn't involved with the IRL would suggest to me that Forsythe isn't ready to jump into a ring with KK at the moment (Though KK did comment that he was happy his business partner's car finished 2nd, so it might not be as bad as I think...

Even if PS and KK do take over Super Aguri, it might still be in their best interest to keep Honda on board...

[xtlm]

Hmm, I think a F1 car should have no standards....just build the fastest thing possible that can go around the track....and give a set limit on how long/short the width and length should be......and give those limits some play room

Who cares if its got 4 cylinders or 16....8000RPM or 20k....as long as its safe and within those general limits...let it be!

yeah!

(this is going off the idea where it would be cool if they put a bigger engine in the DP01....so it can compete in a way....possibly)

[Valve Bounce]

Why be so negative on this ?

Take the glass as half full here , Valve , and be hopeful that anyone will take up the challenge , even Stoddart .

Your friend Schnell's son is depending on it .

I guess if I am totally negative on this, then if I am proved wrong, I can only be happy. The way things are going, what else can I say? :(

[DazzlaF1]

Super Aguri are based at the old Arrows factory in Leafield. It still has all the facilities needed to begin (re-start) chassis manufacture.

The only things missing are the workforce.

And money

[Valve Bounce]

And money

...............and a wind tunnel. And time too if one wishes to look on the pragmatic side. One does not just start a design of an F1 car from scratch and think it will be competitive in anything less than a couple of years.

[nigelred5]

All those extra little winglets go out the window next year. Slicks, common ECU, long life engines and transmissions. I could see it happen with the new chassis rules, but I can't imagine they would try it without some modicum of support from a manufacturer.

[cy bais]

Sorry, but I'll put this one in the "I'll believe it when I see it" file.

Kalkhoven wanted to get into F1 before getting involved with Forsythe to purchase the CART and Cosworth assets several years ago. WHther he's a billionaire or (just) a millionaire, I don't know. He is quite wealthy though. But his failing is that he doesn't seem to have any skills in managing motor racing assets. He also seems to lack the foresight to hire managers who do have the skills or acumen to manage those assets.

If there is to be a Kalkhoven/Stoddart entry in F1, I'd expect it to be run like Kalkhoven's Champ Car team, and the series itself: cheap, unprofessional and unsponsored. Lots of big talk and no results to back it up. This character makes Tom Walkinshaw and Andy Evans look like competent, straight shooters.

I just hope that he and Forsythe sell Cosworth Racing before they (totally) muck it up too.

I second this.

[ioan]

Id rather see the Smurfs in charge of a team than stoddart. :p

It would be less whining and more action! :D

[aryan]

Well, IF (and that is a very big if at that) Stoddart and KK bought SA, and decided to be based in the US...

Due to simple logistics, I can't see an F1 team being based anywhere but in Europe (and maybe Middle East). There simply can't be a team based on North America or Australia... or any other colony :p :

[Powered by Cosworth]

Just an update, chances are this isn't happening anymore as they arn't willing to bail Super Aguri out of the 60 million dollar debt they are in.

[DazzlaF1]

Looks like there is a new possible saviour, some consortium known as the Wiegl Group

http://www.crash.net/motorsport/f1/news/162813-0/renewed_hope_as_saf1_talks_resurrected.html

[dc10]

Looks like there is a new possible saviour, some consortium known as the Wiegl Group

http://www.crash.net/motorsport/f1/news/162813-0/renewed_hope_as_saf1_talks_resurrected.html

And another still, the Spaniards Agag and Campos are back in the picture according to Sky Sports.