Robin Miller Article on CART History [Archive]

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Indy500'79

16th April 2008, 18:37

Does anyone have any info on this "hands in the cookie jar" comment from Miller's article?

"After spending millions for four years and then supposedly catching a couple of his “allies” with their hands in the cookie jar, Kalkhoven told Forsythe he was done last winter. - R. Miller"

Chaparral66

16th April 2008, 23:50

mikiec

17th April 2008, 00:03

http://auto-racing.speedtv.com/article/miller-a-brief-history-of-cart/

cos

17th April 2008, 02:04

Chaparral66

17th April 2008, 04:51

Thanks for the link, but I too would like Miller to clarify his "hands in the cookie jar" comment. None of the Amigos is exactly cringing in fear where their next sticky bun is coming from, so what does he mean? Otherwise, Miller, as usual, was spot on in his retrospective.

Rogelio

17th April 2008, 05:59

Certainly a great article by a true, passionte fan of AOWR. I am curious as to what he meant by "hands in the cookie jar" comment as well. Even though Champ Car is done with, I will still reflect on the past and especially the lost opportunity to revive the series.

I guess the Amigos took us for a ride that had no direction and we were too blind to accept the facts. In the end, they had no plan whatsoever.

millencolin

17th April 2008, 06:06

Wasn't walker planning on moving over in 09 anyways when Champ Car was alive 'n' kickin? i may be mistaken though... Ironic though, cause (unfortuately) Derrick's presense is not on the IRL grid

BobGarage

17th April 2008, 12:32

Thanks for the link, but I too would like Miller to clarify his "hands in the cookie jar" comment.

he has taken the quote from the thread of similar title on CCF where some people who claim to be "in the know" have outed paper for who he is and spilt the beans on what happened with the demise of Champ Car.

To save you ready 27 pages of crap.... the details basically are...

- In Cleveland last year PG and DP went to KK and demanded more money or they would not take their cars to Toronto.
- KK gave them the money in order to keep the series going.
- When reviewing the budgets for 2008, KK didn't like something he saw in them and got his experts to look over them.
- His experts found that "someone" (names not mentioned but suspected to be PG) was syphoning off $3million from the CC budget to help fund his own team.
- It was this that and past history caused KK and GF to throw in the towel and sell up to TG!

* I may have missed some points but that is the jist of the 27 page thread

mikiec

17th April 2008, 13:13

he has taken the quote from the thread of similar title on CCF where some people who claim to be "in the know" have outed paper for who he is and spilt the beans on what happened with the demise of Champ Car.

* I may have missed some points but that is the jist of the 27 page thread

Thanks for that Bob, the only point I can see missing is exactly is Paper?

garyshell

17th April 2008, 14:24

Thanks for that Bob, the only point I can see missing is exactly is Paper?

A self important, boor who can't find the shift key on his keyboard or string together two coherent sentences. But as to his identity who knows, or cares.

Gary

gofastandwynn

17th April 2008, 14:47

A self important, boor who can't find the shift key on his keyboard or string together two coherent sentences. But as to his identity who knows, or cares.

Gary

Here is another question, what ever happned to the guy in my signature?

indycool

17th April 2008, 14:53

Okay, Gary, we started agreeing again! :)

With the money being thrown around by series owners and race teams without enough funds for four years, I guess I find Bob Garage's summary of what they're saying over there believeable.

After this weekend, it's "absolutely" one series. The faster we quit looking back, the sooner we start looking forward.

millencolin

17th April 2008, 15:07

Here is another question, what ever happned to the guy in my signature?

Lol i was thinking that the other day... he must be wallowing in disbelief :p :

downtowndeco

17th April 2008, 15:10

I guess the Amigos took us for a ride that had no direction and we were too blind to accept the facts. In the end, they had no plan whatsoever.

Oh they had a plan all right, it's just that it was unrealistic and foolish.

IMO the original plan was to unload CC on TG within the first 12 months and double their money. When TG didn't flinch they had to move to plan B.

Plan B was to run the series as cheaply as possible while persuing the "festival of speed" mode. They wanted others to foot the bill (taxpayers/cities), all the while hoping that the ratings would start to rise enough so that sponsors would be atracted (and the teams wouldn't have to be supported by the series any longer).

Plan B didn't work because the attendance numbers were pure BS only believed by the CCF and as soon as the cities found out that only 32k were actually attending the race not 153k like CC told them they withdrew support. The events folded (Las Vegas, San Jose, Phoenix etc).

Plan C was going to Asia to tap a new market. No go.

Plan D was Europe. Again, no go.

They had a plan. But I think they just believed the hype coming from the CCF and didn't stand back and look at their situation with a clear, unbiased mind. Anyone with half a brain could see that there just wasn't enough to go around by the time CART folded. Not enough teams, sponsors, tracks or fans. But IMO they got tunnel vision and just couldn't (or wouldn't) accept the facts.

Maybe if the CCF would have told CCWS to jump in the lake four years ago rather than accepting every lame ass dumbing down change the amigos forced on them OW racing would be in a better position than it is today. Four more years of infighting when AOW should have started with a clean slate at the fall of CART.

indycool

17th April 2008, 15:21

I agree, dd. The much-ballyhooed "five-year plan" was baloney. And I really believe The Amigos thought of F-Troop as a large hardcore fan base when they put CC together and that, IMO, was one of the catalysts for them to enter the picture. Basing or gauging interest on racing forums is appealing to a VERY small constituency.

Indy500'79

17th April 2008, 15:30

Thanks for clarifying the comment. I didn't ask the question to stir up old debates - let's all keep the eyes looking forward.

nigelred5

17th April 2008, 18:06

Here is another question, what ever happned to the guy in my signature?

Funny, I was looking back at an old thread and it seems he hasn't been here in a while. Actually, I believe since the day the deal was announced. Wonder which one of the paid CCWS shills he really was?

sanguin

17th April 2008, 20:54

Here's a good article-

especially the comments on the bottom.

http://www.usatoday.com/sports/motor/2008-04-16-irl-champcar_N.htm

garyshell

17th April 2008, 21:25

Here's a good article-

especially the comments on the bottom.

http://www.usatoday.com/sports/motor/2008-04-16-irl-champcar_N.htm

Well, well, welll. Look who is back. (Awwww, no. I'm not going to do it.)

Gary

indycool

17th April 2008, 22:21

'Spect you WOULD like the comments on the bottom......but all of that is highly speculative at this point. I don't guess I'm too excited about speculation regarding ex-CC venues because, like Elkhart Lake and Cleveland, most won't want to risk the "nut" in the second year of blendification. I'll just confine my excitement to the fact there's one series with full fields.

You goin' soft on us, Gary? :)

gofastandwynn

17th April 2008, 22:26

Well, well, welll. Look who is back. (Awwww, no. I'm not going to do it.)

Gary

Maybe he is like Beetlejuice, you say his name 3 times he returns.

ChaimWitz

17th April 2008, 23:49

Here's a good article-

especially the comments on the bottom.

http://www.usatoday.com/sports/motor/2008-04-16-irl-champcar_N.htm

Sanguin, I suspect you have been lurking here all along... so I take it that you have had a change of heart about your 300+ "ChampCar und Amigos Uber Alles" posts now that you are suggesting we all read this very balanced USA article. Hey, are you going to the last Champtanic party on the Queen Mary on Sunday night? I would love to buy you a Gin and Kool Aid Martini.

sanguin

18th April 2008, 00:36

No, I haven't been here since the buyout. TG paid $10 million for CC. Hope he got his money 's worth. I don't support the IRL, never will. I have other racing interests now, thanks to TG's money.
I suspect soon enough OW will fail to the point something better will come along to to take its place. The revolt is already brewing. I'll be very patient.

I posted the article because of the truthfulness of some posts. The article is lacking in facts. It is not a merger or unification, it was a buyout. It's still the same old IRL with a few more cars. The IRL has not been successful in 11 years and there is no reason it will be now. It just lost more fans.

Sorry, I'm busy this weekend.

indycool

18th April 2008, 00:47

1. Mods oughta look at your F-Troop posting.
2. Bye.

gofastandwynn

18th April 2008, 02:31

Sorry, I'm busy this weekend.

Guess you will have a lot of free time after that, huh?

PS - This is the IndyCar forum. If you don't like it, don't post here. This seem like a better forum for you... (http://www.motorsportforums.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=95)

Chaparral66

18th April 2008, 04:08

On the whole, I thought the USA article was balanced. The questions raised are legit, while recognizing that the Indy Car Series is now the top open wheel series in the US. As I have said, the jury is way out on TG and his management skills of a series like this, but in retrospect, he can hardly be worse than The Amigos, who have turned out to be one of the biggest disappointments I have ever seen in motorsports (maybe even sports period). I have also said I will keep an open mind about the new series, I won't let any old anger prevent me from watching the new series and where it goes. Once the schedule stabilizes and we have a new car (I agree with KK and JV that incorporating some aspects of the DP-01 is a wise idea, the car should have ideas from both the IRL and CC), that will give us an indication of what the future holds.

As for sanguin saying the "The revolt is already brewing", give some evidence of that, please. Same goes for the comment on the unified series having lost fans. Not possible. Even if some bitter IRL and CC fans decided not to watch, you'd still have a great many fans from both combining to create a larger fanbase as a whole, however slightly or substantially that is. But I hope the IRL knows that won't last if they don't learn from CC's mistakes and their own, and work harder than ever to promote and make exciting this new venture.

Same old IRL? Not a chance. The series especially with G. Rahal winning last time has a new energy it has lacked for some time; let's hope it continues. Imagine what can happen when Lady danica wins her first race. It will happen. That's when she'll really earn that spread in SI, maybe even make the cover again, this time for a real reason. That would be an important first step in making American Open Wheel racing relevant again.

garyshell

18th April 2008, 05:15

Well, well, welll. Look who is back. (Awwww, no. I'm not going to do it.)

You goin' soft on us, Gary? :)

Sanguin, I suspect you have been lurking here all along... so I take it that you have had a change of heart about your 300+ "ChampCar und Amigos Uber Alles" posts now that you are suggesting we all read this very balanced USA article. Hey, are you going to the last Champtanic party on the Queen Mary on Sunday night? I would love to buy you a Gin and Kool Aid Martini.

No, I haven't been here since the buyout. TG paid $10 million for CC. Hope he got his money 's worth. I don't support the IRL, never will. I have other racing interests now, thanks to TG's money.
I suspect soon enough OW will fail to the point something better will come along to to take its place. The revolt is already brewing. I'll be very patient.

I posted the article because of the truthfulness of some posts. The article is lacking in facts. It is not a merger or unification, it was a buyout. It's still the same old IRL with a few more cars. The IRL has not been successful in 11 years and there is no reason it will be now. It just lost more fans.

Sorry, I'm busy this weekend.

This is my favorite comment-

Ok, I was gonna lay back and just see which sanquin showed up. I was willing to give the benefit of the doubt. But now that I see who did show up, you're right Indy, maybe I was going soft.

Sanguin, regarding your not having been back here since the buyout/unification BULL. Do you really expect us to believe you haven't even looked in to see what was being said. Uh, huh. Sure. Whatever you say.

Next what is this "The revolt is already brewing." Have any FACTS to back that up? And please spare me the story about Forsyth's delusional plans to team up with some impresario and do some Pacific rim series. Yawn. That's a non starter. Dial up Madison Ave in the morning and see how quickly they hang up on you.

Hmmmm, "I don't support the IRL, never will. I have other racing interests now, thanks to TG's money." So does that mean you were closer to the core than you let on and you got a cut? Or just that you are no longer an open wheel fan? Either way, there is an exit here with your name on it.

Maybe we should take a page from your old buddies at CCF. I have FIVE reasons to start a count down. Do I hear FOUR?

Gary

gofastandwynn

18th April 2008, 05:45

Ok, I was gonna lay back and just see which sanquin showed up. I was willing to give the benefit of the doubt. But now that I see who did show up, you're right Indy, maybe I was going soft.

Sanguin, regarding your not having been back here since the buyout/unification BULL. Do you really expect us to believe you haven't even looked in to see what was being said. Uh, huh. Sure. Whatever you say.

Next what is this "The revolt is already brewing." Have any FACTS to back that up? And please spare me the story about Forsyth's delusional plans to team up with some impresario and do some Pacific rim series. Yawn. That's a non starter. Dial up Madison Ave in the morning and see how quickly they hang up on you.

Hmmmm, "I don't support the IRL, never will. I have other racing interests now, thanks to TG's money." So does that mean you were closer to the core than you let on and you got a cut? Or just that you are no longer an open wheel fan? Either way, there is an exit here with your name on it.

Maybe we should take a page from your old buddies at CCF. I have FIVE reasons to start a count down. Do I hear FOUR?

Gary

Since is his not a IndyCar fan, I could see a reason FOUR it...

pits4me

18th April 2008, 05:53

Hopefully Robin Miller will report more facts that have surfaced at Long Beach. I wish I could repeat what one team owner shared with me. Or that Cosworth has handed out almost 30 pink slips effective next week. Some great faces will be missed, Ian Bisco among them.

mikiec

18th April 2008, 11:42

indycool

18th April 2008, 13:01

Geez, 30 had a "THREE" in it.

gofastandwynn

18th April 2008, 13:03

GF? Is it really you?????!!! ;) :P

No, his post usually lack sanity, so he must be Gentlozzi...

nigelred5

18th April 2008, 14:03

I can only think of TWO reasons why Sanguin showed up today!!

1. naaaaah
2. naaaah!

18th April 2008, 14:06

I can only think of TWO reasons why Sanguin showed up today!!

1. naaaaah
2. naaaah!

'ONE' can't argue with that.