The future of Scuderia Toro Rosso

[jens]

http://en.f1-live.com/f1/en/headlines/news/detail/080415103846.shtml

Not too long ago we had a thread about Super Aguri's future, but the news above influenced me to make a thread about STR too.

Besides Force India will we see a Kuwait-named team too? F1 is going to be like A1GP (teams based on states)? :p : Will STR be sold during this season? Who will be the new owner? Will that influence their next year's driver line-up and other key personnel? Thoughts?

[Valve Bounce]

http://en.f1-live.com/f1/en/headlines/news/detail/080415103846.shtml

Not too long ago we had a thread about Super Aguri's future, but the news above influenced me to make a thread about STR too.

Besides Force India will we see a Kuwait-named team too? F1 is going to be like A1GP (teams based on states)? :p : Will STR be sold during this season? Who will be the new owner? Will that influence their next year's driver line-up and other key personnel? Thoughts?

See Super Aguri thread for mine, pls. :(

[CNR]

one thing i can not work out

they own minardi f1 so they would own the rights to the car plans it would not take much to have them added to to bring them up to date

http://i30.tinypic.com/2j0kug3.jpg

[Valve Bounce]

one thing i can not work out

they own minardi f1 so they would own the rights to the car plans it would not take much to have them added to to bring them up to date

http://i30.tinypic.com/2j0kug3.jpg

Tell me you're kidding! Please! The Minardi was a tail ender at best, and that was years ago. The only way to make it fast is to set it on fire.

[CNR]

no i am saying take the minardi plans (not the car it is just there to show it would not take much to do it) add on to it untill it is the same as redbull then use minardi factory to build them.

[ioan]

no i am saying take the minardi plans (not the car it is just there to show it would not take much to do it) add on to it untill it is the same as redbull then use minardi factory to build them.

It would still be the same car as the Red Bull, minus the engine.
It's not like the FIA wouldn't close an eye on it, it's Williams and Force India that are killing STR and SAF1.

[Valve Bounce]

no i am saying take the minardi plans (not the car it is just there to show it would not take much to do it) add on to it untill it is the same as redbull then use minardi factory to build them.

You are still kidding, right!! What the hell makes you think the Minardi plans were/are any good apart from wiping your bum with?

[SGWilko]

It would still be the same car as the Red Bull, minus the engine.
It's not like the FIA wouldn't close an eye on it, it's Williams and Force India that are killing STR and SAF1.

Why blame them? Rules is rules. You cannot expect most teams to pi55 money up the wall building designing testing etc their own chassis, when a majority cadge off their parent team and get it virtually for nothing.

Sadly, our esteemed leader of the FIA, said customer teams would be allowed, then changed his mind.......

Still, worse things happen at sea, take the Kursk for example........... :eek:

[Valve Bounce]

Why blame them? Rules is rules. You cannot expect most teams to pi55 money up the wall building designing testing etc their own chassis, when a majority cadge off their parent team and get it virtually for nothing.

Sadly, our esteemed leader of the FIA, said customer teams would be allowed, then changed his mind.......

Still, worse things happen at sea, take the Kursk for example........... :eek:

Unfortunately, with their stance on customer cars, Force India are burying themsleves - perhaps a year after the demise of Torro Rosso and Super Aguri they also will be gone!

[SGWilko]

Unfortunately, with their stance on customer cars, Force India are burying themsleves - perhaps a year after the demise of Torro Rosso and Super Aguri they also will be gone!

I meant to write minority in my post...

Why do you think Force India are burying themselves?

[ioan]

Why blame them? Rules is rules. You cannot expect most teams to pi55 money up the wall building designing testing etc their own chassis, when a majority cadge off their parent team and get it virtually for nothing.

Sadly, our esteemed leader of the FIA, said customer teams would be allowed, then changed his mind.......

Still, worse things happen at sea, take the Kursk for example........... :eek:

The FIA is not the one who decides about this aspect, this kind of things are stipulated in the Concorde agreement, the where everyone has to agree in order to be signed.

So let's not put everything on Max's shoulders, will ya!?

[Valve Bounce]

I meant to write minority in my post...

Why do you think Force India are burying themselves?

Well, with Torro Rosso and Supre Aguri gone, and customer cars outlawed, how far do you think Force India will go with their antiquated piece of junk?

[markabilly]

Well, with Torro Rosso and Supre Aguri gone, and customer cars outlawed, how far do you think Force India will go with their antiquated piece of junk?
All the way up to last place.....Face it, someone has to get beat up and finish last, even if F1 comes down to only Ferrari and Mac racing each other, and so it would seem that customer cars serve a very good purpose.

But the concorde agreement, being like a cartel agreement, has the participants wanting to get the biggest cut of the pie with most amount of profit vs. expenses. Fewer there, the more for the remainder. Problem is that those in the cartel wants to be a monopoly, and when/if that finally happens, well who wants to watch Ferrari racing Kimi against Massa all day with no one else there??

"Did u see that pass Kimi put on massa?? Wow made Massa look like he was just sitting there!!"
"err, he was just sitting there, cause he was in the pits getting fuel..."
:rolleyes:

[Powered by Cosworth]

no i am saying take the minardi plans (not the car it is just there to show it would not take much to do it) add on to it untill it is the same as redbull then use minardi factory to build them.

The Minardi was a mishmash of whatever intellectual property Stoddy owned at the time mixed with untested aero parts and old engines!

[jso1985]

Well, with Torro Rosso and Supre Aguri gone, and customer cars outlawed, how far do you think Force India will go with their antiquated piece of junk?

But what makes you think Force India is "surviving" F1 thanks to SA and TR?

Force India is not looking forward to benefit from customer cars, surely they look like doomed to be the slowest team but at least they're not playing "I'm the B team" and I don't see them leaving F1 because they can't use (let's say) last year Ferrari's... they know they need to build their own car

[Valve Bounce]

But what makes you think Force India is "surviving" F1 thanks to SA and TR?

Force India is not looking forward to benefit from customer cars, surely they look like doomed to be the slowest team but at least they're not playing "I'm the B team" and I don't see them leaving F1 because they can't use (let's say) last year Ferrari's... they know they need to build their own car

That's not the question I asked, is it. The point I am making is that Force India will also need a customer car to remain in F1.

[markabilly]

Simple solution is the greed vs cost issue.

Real car manufacturers should get a big bonus of the money

Customer cars get a much smaller cut of the pie to balance out the costs of development and construction.

So force India, gts a much bigger cut that STR....etc and so forth.

Otherwise it will be a very small field

[Valve Bounce]

Simple solution is the greed vs cost issue.

Real car manufacturers should get a big bonus of the money

Customer cars get a much smaller cut of the pie to balance out the costs of development and construction.

So force India, gts a much bigger cut that STR....etc and so forth.
Otherwise it will be a very small field

If Force India wishes to continue in F1 after 2010, they will have to go the customer car route; the alternative is there will be no Force India after 2010.

[markabilly]

If Force India wishes to continue in F1 after 2010, they will have to go the customer car route; the alternative is there will be no Force India after 2010.
all the more reason to recognize the need to permit customer cars.......

[Valve Bounce]

all the more reason to recognize the need to permit customer cars.......

:up:

[ioan]

If Force India wishes to continue in F1 after 2010, they will have to go the customer car route; the alternative is there will be no Force India after 2010.

Why?
Stating it is very easy. However I do not see why this should be true.

[Valve Bounce]

Why?
Stating it is very easy. However I do not see why this should be true.

Because they will not have a competitive car, and if Super Aguri and Torro Rosso pull out, I cannot see a Force India car being on the same page as the other teams at all. There would be a gap of between 7 and 10 seconds per lap by then, maybe even more.

ioan, I'm not just stating this; I've been developing this argument about the necessity of customer cars for all three bottom teams for quite a few posts in several threads.

[ioan]

Because they will not have a competitive car, and if Super Aguri and Torro Rosso pull out, I cannot see a Force India car being on the same page as the other teams at all. There would be a gap of between 7 and 10 seconds per lap by then, maybe even more.

Minardi was never 7 -10 seconds down in terms of pace, and that during many many seasons. In fact they managed to be within the 107% rule.
And Force India are within 2-3 seconds of the leaders pace at the moment, what makes you think that they would suddenly be lapping the field 10 seconds per lap slower???
They had little money for quite a few seasons now and they never dropped the ball!


ioan, I'm not just stating this; I've been developing this argument about the necessity of customer cars for all three bottom teams for quite a few posts in several threads.

That might be the case, but it is based on what exactly?
Force India have financial backing and the team always built their own chassis. Why would they need to buy outdated chassis if theirs are good enough to qualify in Q2?

[SGWilko]

Because they will not have a competitive car, and if Super Aguri and Torro Rosso pull out, I cannot see a Force India car being on the same page as the other teams at all. There would be a gap of between 7 and 10 seconds per lap by then, maybe even more.

ioan, I'm not just stating this; I've been developing this argument about the necessity of customer cars for all three bottom teams for quite a few posts in several threads.

We need to segregate the championship - as it was in the turbo v normally aspirated days. One WDC & WCC for manufacturers, and one for the customer teams. If it swells the grid, then so be it - bring but pre qually too.....

[Valve Bounce]

Minardi was never 7 -10 seconds down in terms of pace, and that during many many seasons. In fact they managed to be within the 107% rule.
And Force India are within 2-3 seconds of the leaders pace at the moment, what makes you think that they would suddenly be lapping the field 10 seconds per lap slower???
They had little money for quite a few seasons now and they never dropped the ball!



That might be the case, but it is based on what exactly?
Force India have financial backing and the team always built their own chassis. Why would they need to buy outdated chassis if theirs are good enough to qualify in Q2?

you really think they would be only 2 to 3 seconds off the pace of Ferrari next year?

[ioan]

you really think they would be only 2 to 3 seconds off the pace of Ferrari next year?

Why not?

[Tazio]

I tend to agree with Ioan on this one! Force India apears to be able to stand on it's own two feet. Financially they have the resources to keep them in engines. And a commitment to be their own costructor. They deserve the benefit of the doubt. Their in this deep. It's sink or swim. I think they will swim!

[jens]

Force India seems to have a talented and enthusiastic team with now more finances than in previous seasons. VJM01 is the first car (and even that is an evolution, not a radical design) with some Gascoyne influence and they have quite obviously made a step forward by interrupting some other teams/drivers occasionally (STR, Barrichello, Piquet, Nakajima in recent races). Gascoyne mentioned before the season that 2009 is their priority. With all those rule shake-ups maybe they can surprise. Instead of writing them off, I'm not ruling out FI might be a possible threat to the midfield next year.

[SGWilko]

Force India seems to have a talented and enthusiastic team with now more finances than in previous seasons. VJM01 is the first car (and even that is an evolution, not a radical design) with some Gascoyne influence and they have quite obviously made a step forward by interrupting some other teams/drivers occasionally (STR, Barrichello, Piquet, Nakajima in recent races). Gascoyne mentioned before the season that 2009 is their priority. With all those rule shake-ups maybe they can surprise. Instead of writing them off, I'm not ruling out FI might be a possible threat to the midfield next year.

Well, how good are they [Force India] going to be at producing an effective and reliable KERS unit. Are Ferrari going to be happy letting them use theirs?

[aryan]

Well, with Torro Rosso and Supre Aguri gone, and customer cars outlawed, how far do you think Force India will go with their antiquated piece of junk?

That piece of Junk is not that junk anymore, this year it is running midfield, not only thanks to SA and STR but its lap times are seriously quick and they are mixing it with the likes of Renault.

I applaud Force India for their huge improvements this year, considering that they were dead last last year.

Remember, this team was winning races and was in the hunt for championship in less than a decade ago. Things can turn around again. This is no SA, this team had racing history whatever it's calles.

[aryan]

Well, how good are they [Force India] going to be at producing an effective and reliable KERS unit. Are Ferrari going to be happy letting them use theirs?

Ferrari will beat them eventually, considering their financial might, but I wouldn't be surprised if Force India's KERS unit turns out to be one of the better ones next year.

They have talented engineerins over there, and it's a new device and they have to all work from scratch. Anything is possible.

[aryan]

you really think they would be only 2 to 3 seconds off the pace of Ferrari next year?

Valve, they will be less than 2 seconds off the pace of Ferrari next year, at the beginning of the season.

[Valve Bounce]

Why not?


Care to bet your sig on this? It will be a long term sig though, not a couple of weeks.

[gloomyDAY]

Why aren't customer cars allowed?

Seems like F1 needs a solution to bring more cars on the grid.
Sad that all these engineers and personnel will have to turn towards other places.

[Valve Bounce]

Why aren't customer cars allowed?

Seems like F1 needs a solution to bring more cars on the grid.
Sad that all these engineers and personnel will have to turn towards other places.

I think we've had endless discussions about this for quite awhile. Don't know where to point you towards, but we'd be rehashing old stuff if we started that all over again.

[jens]

http://www.grandprix.com/ns/ns20358.html

A possible solution?

[Ranger]

http://www.grandprix.com/ns/ns20358.html

A possible solution?

Interesting. However it should be noted that STR still use Minardi's base at Faenza, so the chassis production would be hindered by the lack of resources there... probably deterring new buyers.

Although, a Martini Lancia livery on the grid would be nice nonetheless. :D

[BDunnell]

I tend to agree with Ioan on this one! Force India apears to be able to stand on it's own two feet. Financially they have the resources to keep them in engines. And a commitment to be their own costructor. They deserve the benefit of the doubt. Their in this deep. It's sink or swim. I think they will swim!

I agree as well. The backing behind the team seems long-term in nature and genuinely committed. We'll need to wait and see as to whether this is actually the case, of course, but I don't consider Force India to be the sort of habitual backmarkers that Minardi ended up as. Most of the time, maybe, but not all the time and not by that much.

[Roamy]

I think the answer is to ban all winglets, barge boards etc. Only a body, front wing, back wing. Then you would eliminate the need for very complex wind tunnels.
These cars nowdays are starting to look like a 59 chevy at a Mr. T convention.

[BDunnell]

I think the answer is to ban all winglets, barge boards etc. Only a body, front wing, back wing. Then you would eliminate the need for very complex wind tunnels.
These cars nowdays are starting to look like a 59 chevy at a Mr. T convention.

:laugh:

I agree. Some may see F1 as primarily a technological exercise, but I think that now has to take a bit of a back seat. It certainly isn't the technological aspect from which I derive my enjoyment of the sport.

[ioan]

I think the answer is to ban all winglets, barge boards etc. Only a body, front wing, back wing. Then you would eliminate the need for very complex wind tunnels.

:up:



These cars nowdays are starting to look like a 59 chevy at a Mr. T convention.

:rotflmao:

[ArrowsFA1]

British Formula Three race winners Ultimate Motorsport are in talks with Red Bull chiefs about buying a shareholding in Scuderia Toro Rosso.
http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/68188

[Nikki Katz]

I don't see how that can happen if customer cars are banned for next year though. Surely they can't construct a car from whenever they buy the team, which would probably take at least another month, and the start of the next season if they have no facilities or workforce for doing that?
I'd never heard of this team, checking wiki they only entered F3 last year.

[cy bais]

I read that article too. I would've guessed that a current GP2 team would be interested but not an F3 team. It'll be interesting to follow.

:)

[CNR]

I don't see how that can happen if customer cars are banned for next year though. Surely they can't construct a car from whenever they buy the team, which would probably take at least another month, and the start of the next season if they have no facilities or workforce for doing that?
I'd never heard of this team, checking wiki they only entered F3 last year.

change in the Formula One regulations start in 2010
http://www.stuff.co.nz/stuff/4580084a13275.html

[cy bais]

I wonder if Ricardo Texeira is related to the Texeira that runs A1GP.

[ArrowsFA1]

I don't see how that can happen if customer cars are banned for next year though. Surely they can't construct a car from whenever they buy the team, which would probably take at least another month, and the start of the next season if they have no facilities or workforce for doing that?
The team run Mygale (http://www.mygale-cars.com/) cars in F3 so perhaps Mygale are planning to become an F1 constructor...?

I wonder if Ricardo Texeira is related to the Texeira that runs A1GP.
Other than having the same surname there's no connection.

[V12]

In a strange sort of way I think a (good) F3 outfit would be better placed to make the step up to F1 than a GP2 outfit, given that GP2 is a strictly controlled one-make series whereas F3, while being 99% Dallara and having some development restrictions in place, is still as close as your going to get to an open formula outside of F1 and sports-prototypes (excluding lower level series like Formula Ford).

The Mygale link-up that was mentioned might make sense, remember when Scuderia Italia ran with Dallara and Lola cars, and Larrousse ran with Lolas for a while too, which was allowed since Dallara/Lola wasn't running a works team or supplying anyone else with cars at the same time, and the same would apply here.

Of course it would be a bloody hard struggle to even get off the back row, initially at least, but as someone else mentioned, somebody needs to be last, the Concorde Agreement income is based around 10 teams so they would be guaranteed some of that, and it would sure be better than an 18 car field.

As far fetched as it might seem for this to come off, I think this rumour certainly has more steam in it than the Lancia one.

[Robinho]

are they planning a full buy out, or just buying out the half owned by Red Bull - if so a link up with the existing staff and Berger could make some sense, rather than trying to start from scratch - they've got a couple of years of experience of the red bull chassis and Ferrari engine deal to start as a platform

[CNR]

F3 team boss confirms Toro Rosso talks
http://www.duemotori.com/news/f1/27224_F3_team_boss_confirms_Toro_Rosso_talks.php


The boss of the British F3 outfit Ultimate Motorsport has confirmed he is in negotiations to buy into the formula one team Toro Rosso.

It was reported recently that the Northamptonshire based squad, in only its second year of competition, is positioning to take over Red Bull magnate Dietrich Mateschitz's 50 per cent share of STR, with the backing of the Angolian oil company Sonangol.



"If our plans go the right way, I'd like to think we could be on the grid for 2009. The aim is to have the whole structure, with the academy from karting, through formula 3 and the World Series, and formula one at the top," he added.

[Valve Bounce]

The team run Mygale (http://www.mygale-cars.com/) cars in F3 so perhaps Mygale are planning to become an F1 constructor...?

.

And that would be like expecting Tuppeware to start making Meissen crystal :http://www.soldeasy.co.uk/index.php?act=viewCat&catId=2

[FIA]

Sounds ok, F1 is for everyone. Could get young drivers from Kuwait into in F1, why not.

[Azumanga Davo]

I can't see why not. They have gotten dafter and more elaborate schemes up and running before (they weren't successful, but got going nevertheless).