China The Super Power - China's latest weapon test [Archive]

race aficionado

19th January 2007, 17:13

The status of China as a World Super Power is continuing to manifest itself.
Just last week, TIME magazines cover story was: "CHINA: Dawn of a New Dynasty - with the U.S. tied down in Iraq, a new Superpower has arrived. Here's how to deal with it."

It's interesting how this latest act from China has many here in the US nervous and some, provoked.

What do you think?

I don't feel provoked at all.

http://news.aol.com/topnews/articles/_a/china-destroys-satellite-in-test/20070119091109990001?ncid=NWS00010000000001

Only two nations — the Soviet Union and the United States — have previously destroyed spacecraft in antisatellite tests, most recently the United States in the mid-1980s.

Arms control experts called the test, in which the weapon destroyed an aging Chinese weather satellite, a troubling development that could foreshadow an antisatellite arms race. Alternatively, however, some experts speculated that it could precede a diplomatic effort by China to prod the Bush administration into negotiations on a weapons ban.

:s mokin:

Eki

19th January 2007, 18:10

It's interesting how this latest act from China has many here in the US nervous and some, provoked.

Yes, funny how only few of them seemed to be concerned about Reagan's "Star Wars" program or Bush's plans for missile defense systems and permanent bases on the moon.

EuroTroll

19th January 2007, 18:14

Yes, funny how only few of them seemed to be concerned about Reagan's "Star Wars" program or Bush's plans for missile defense systems and permanent bases on the moon.

Why is it funny? "I hope our side does well, while the other side does badly" is surely one of the most basic and common human attitudes.

Mark in Oshawa

19th January 2007, 18:17

Whatever Chinese motives are, they are not good for a)democracies at large and b) the United States.

Everything China does is to either control its economy further, control its citizens, or bend the world to its wishes.

Well some may say this of the US, I would humbly disagree. If the Chinese have killer satellites, they just want the US to know that they have them, and see how the US reacts. It is a test, the same way it would be a test during the Cold war. The only difference is, the Chinese appreciate the economic side of the equation far better than the communist rulers in Moscow. If only their efforts were channelled into granting human rights freedoms to Falun Gong and Tibet, not to mention their own people.

Eki

19th January 2007, 18:18

Why is it funny? "I hope our side does well, while the other side does badly" is surely one of the most basic and common human attitudes.
I was being sarcastic.

Mark in Oshawa

19th January 2007, 18:18

Yes, funny how only few of them seemed to be concerned about Reagan's "Star Wars" program or Bush's plans for missile defense systems and permanent bases on the moon.

Many people in the US don't like the idea either Eki, but it doesn't change the fact you had to bring that up. Which says to me once again, you see nothing wrong with China having them, and yet you do with the US. Your Anti-American bias is showing once again.

Mark in Oshawa

19th January 2007, 18:19

Oh by the way, I don't want to see weapons in space either, but I suspect they were up there long before you and I were aware of it. You would have to be the village idiot to not believe that the USSR didn't have them going, and at that same time or sooner than the Americans. The Chinese are just playing catchup.

Eki

19th January 2007, 18:22

If the Chinese have killer satellites, they just want the US to know that they have them, and see how the US reacts.
We are not talking about killer satellites, we are talking about satellite killers. Two totally different things. The US is worried that the Chinese will be able to destroy American GPS and communication satellites so that their satellite guided missiles can't hit their targets in China.

Mark in Oshawa

19th January 2007, 18:34

They are one and the same. It is a weapon in space Eki, and if the US was SERIOUS about a war with China, you are damned right they don't want China to have them. That said, the US has likely had a similar capability and never used it. They don't like the Chinese having the same stuff as them. If I am the US, I don't like it either, but nothing will come of it and the Americans wont be asking for someone to intercede on their behalf.

I would feel a lot better if there were no weapons in space, but if you think I trust the Chinese with this technology over the Americans, you are dreaming pal. The Chinese have shown little interest in the rights of man and freedom over the last 60 years....

Mark in Oshawa

19th January 2007, 18:37

odykas

19th January 2007, 18:44

China's nucular weapon test..

http://www.beijingtraveltips.com/chinese_food_guide/images/beijingkaoya1.jpg

:facelick:

schmenke

19th January 2007, 18:45

Ody :up: :D

dchen

19th January 2007, 18:57

BTW, who is to say the Chinese don't knock out the GPS capabliity just because they can then market their own GPS satelllite system to the world? It could be a commerical interest or threat? I wouldn't think the Chinese would be that bold, and I don't think it is as easy as that, but lets face facts. Satellites are a business, and the Chinese would love a share of that. They have also been very cavalier and inconsiderate when it comes to respecting copyrights and stealing technology.....so who knows what their motives are?

I don't want any weapons in space, but unlike people who live in absolutes, I realize the pandora's box was opened long ago, I just have to have a trust in the nations that have put something up there have a motive better than just conquest on their minds. The US fits that description a lot more than Russia or China.....

Actually, based on current technology (or as much as I know), it's impossible to knock down GPS satellite, because they are in the geostationary orbit. That orbit is about 20K miles up there, so no missiles will touch that. The missle China fire only goes to about 500 miles, which is between high LEO and low MEO, and a long way to go before it touches GEO. I think it's just a way for them to demonstrate their capabilities, but I wouldn't worry about anti-GPS satellite missiles in any near future.

luvracin

19th January 2007, 19:11

Ignoring the politics for a minute...

- The "Big Sky Little aeroplane" theory states that the chances of your little aeroplane being in the same part of the big sky at the same time as another little aeroplane are so remote it's not worth worrying about.

So taking that further, the challenge of hitting one infinitessimally small fast moving object, in the infinitessimally large outer atmosphere with another infinitessimally small fast moving object, even with 21st century guidance systems, is enormous.

Quite frankly, I'm impressed from a purely technical point of view.

Mark in Oshawa

19th January 2007, 19:25

Dchen, thanks for the update. It was Eki that brought up the possibility.

I think it too was the Chinese saying "hey we can do this now, Y'all want to see??" It will mean ultimately very little.

Still, it gives us silly people on forums around the world something new to chew on...

Brown, Jon Brow

19th January 2007, 19:32

It's World War 3 :uhoh:

I predict that Britain will save the USA's buttts :p

EuroTroll

19th January 2007, 19:43

It's World War 3 :uhoh:

I predict that Britain will save the USA's buttts :p

And regardless of who's fighting, I bet the Americans will be speaking German by the end of it. :p :

race aficionado

19th January 2007, 19:46

. . . . or Chinese . . . .

EuroTroll

19th January 2007, 19:54

. . . . or Chinese . . . .

No, it will be German. No matter who's fighting and who wins. :p :

SOD

19th January 2007, 19:56

way back in 1999 when I read in Laser Focus World that China was developing high powered lasers that knock out satellites.

We're just entering Cold War II. of course some people like it that way.

dchen

19th January 2007, 20:03

way back in 1999 when I read in Laser Focus World that China was developing high powered lasers that knock out satellites.

We're just entering Cold War II. of course some people like it that way.

Actually, it has been reported before that China has used laser to blind US satellites when they passed above China. It only blinds them temporarily, but enough to not allow them to see what's in China.

I think Cold War II had started before the original Cold War was over.

Brown, Jon Brow

19th January 2007, 20:04

Actually, it has been reported before that China has used laser to blind US satellites when they passed above China. It only blinds them temporarily, but enough to not allow them to see what's in China.

I think Cold War II had started before the original Cold War was over.

I'm happy with Cold War ;)

Just as long it doesn't become World War

SOD

19th January 2007, 20:21

I'm happy with Cold War ;)

Just as long it doesn't become World War

It's just a rehash of "US" versus "THEM" except The US and THEM will change daily.

War will only come about when the weapons storage costs become too high.

dchen

19th January 2007, 22:21

Actually, based on current technology (or as much as I know), it's impossible to knock down GPS satellite, because they are in the geostationary orbit. That orbit is about 20K miles up there, so no missiles will touch that. The missle China fire only goes to about 500 miles, which is between high LEO and low MEO, and a long way to go before it touches GEO. I think it's just a way for them to demonstrate their capabilities, but I wouldn't worry about anti-GPS satellite missiles in any near future.

Oops, let me correct that. The GPS satellites are in high MEO, toward the lower GEO, at about 20K KM (boy, don't you just hate to mix up those units).

Ian McC

19th January 2007, 22:40

Reagan's "Star Wars" program

Yeah, whatever happened to that?

schmenke

19th January 2007, 22:44

Han and Chewie saved the day.

Eki

19th January 2007, 22:59

Han and Chewie saved the day.
So Han was Chinese. Maybe he descended from the Han dynasty:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Han_dynasty

schmenke

19th January 2007, 23:04

So Han was Chinese. ...

I thought he was Corillian?

Brown, Jon Brow

19th January 2007, 23:10

L5->R5/CR

19th January 2007, 23:28

The Usa is apparently concerned about China increasing it's military budget. I believe that it currently stands at around $30billion. This makes me laugh, especially when the USA spends over $500billion (even the UK spends more than China- $60billion)

Why can't a growing economy increase it's spending??

There is no need to panic about China-USA relations though. I don't think that any leader is dumb enough to start a Nuclear war! (even Bush!!)

US defense spending includes a lot of non-military expenditures including science research funding (and lots of college scholarships) to things like infrastructure maintenance (anything the Army Corps of Engineers does comes out of the Defense Budget, so building dams on US rivers and maintaining water ways like the Mississippi come from the Defense Budget).

The US is concerned about China increasing its military expenditures (mainly because the Chinese have pseudo armies in a lot of emerging oil republics and are securing oil with arms and military supplies) because it has previously been that China lacked a long range capable military or sufficient arms to arm its army.

But every modern nation should be concerned about China and military spending for the pure implications of what that means to the world energy market (stupid Russian politics and Chinese demand account for almost $30.00 USD/barrel). Putting the military resources and personnel into emerging oil states, as China has and continues to do, has many similiarities to the formation of the Warsaw Pact minus the formal military alliances (ok so maybe this is a bit of a stretch but 5-50,000 well armed chinese in 50 countries with questionable governments that have strong China ties has potential for problems)...

Brown, Jon Brow

19th January 2007, 23:33

US defense spending includes a lot of non-military expenditures including science research funding (and lots of college scholarships) to things like infrastructure maintenance (anything the Army Corps of Engineers does comes out of the Defense Budget, so building dams on US rivers and maintaining water ways like the Mississippi come from the Defense Budget).

Yeah!!!........ So does the UK's.

Personally i don't see how a defense budget of $500billion can be justified when the whole world could have food and education for $70billion.

agwiii

20th January 2007, 00:02

I think Cold War II had started before the original Cold War was over.

The Cold War ended in Cuba 1959, when the Soviet Union withdrew its missiles. We entered a period of détente, followed by what we have now - guerrilla war.

SOD

20th January 2007, 00:33

But every modern nation should be concerned about China and military spending for the pure implications of what that means to the world energy market (stupid Russian politics and Chinese demand account for almost $30.00 USD/barrel)

je disagrée , the real value of energy was not apparent until Bush reveal the dephts the USA would go to control a petroleuem supply. the price srtaed to go up after the Iraq war. the oil is being traded on the stock exchanges, you think those guys who control the capital believe that invading Iraq was all about Saddam?

In regards to Russia. The Russians are going to emerge as a major international player again, all thanks to the increase in energy costs.

SOD

20th January 2007, 00:46

The doomsday clock stands at 5 minutes to midnight.

Mark in Oshawa

20th January 2007, 03:21

I think the fiction that the US wants to drive up the price of oil is as equal as the fiction that the US is trying to control the price of oil to drive it down. Only a fool would be able to even think of controlling the oil market when China is using as much now as the US.

No, the reason why the Americans don't like China spending on arms to the tune of what they are reported to have spent is because at some point, the Americans I suspect would like to cut back on some of their spending.

The argument that defense spending could be better spent feeding the world would be a great argument except if you really examine the politics involved in starvation. The Darfur refugee's are only surviving because the Sudanese gov't hasn't found a way to back the militia causing the strife openly. Many 3rd world nations with food issues are often not cut and dried cases where the people are starving just through lack of food. Often there are governments in the way or corruptly using it as a weapon to maintain power. Infrastructure issues are another reason, and to control that infrastruture is power. It isn't cut and dried, but I do agree, it is a shame that mankind cant feed everyone and not spend on defense, but alas, our world is not simplistic children's fairy tale.....

We ( the Western World ) is in another cold war situation now with China, but the difference is, the Chinese still need us to maintain their growth. This interdependence actually lessens the danger IMO, but the doomday clock people like to say otherwise.

Agwiii was right, the Cuban Missle Crisis proved once and for all that regimes better realize that the US and the West as a whole has a point where you better not push. The Chinese are far smarter than that, and far more patient than that....

SOD

20th January 2007, 03:41

We ( the Western World ) is in another cold war situation now with China, but the difference is, the Chinese still need us to maintain their growth. This interdependence actually lessens the danger IMO, but the doomday clock people like to say otherwise.

Agwiii was right, the Cuban Missle Crisis proved once and for all that regimes better realize that the US and the West as a whole has a point where you better not push. The Chinese are far smarter than that, and far more patient than that....

first rule of business, don't kill your customers. remember that the US federal Govt ia borrowing $1bn per day from the Chinese, and the Chinese cannot be intimidated into behaving as the USA wants them to behave.

Mark in Oshawa

20th January 2007, 04:06

I think the Yanks had that figured out before you told em SOD. The problem is no one holds the ChiCom's to account for anything. They truly are their own law, since they believe in no religion and likely no higher being. Give me a leader that at least things someone will hold him accountable after he passes away, and I can start to understand where his mind is going. The Chinese....well they are a law unto themselves, and they will stop at nothing to maintain the ultimate upper hand in most situations. They are to the world what a lot of people think the Yanks are......

L5->R5/CR

20th January 2007, 04:41

je disagrée , the real value of energy was not apparent until Bush reveal the dephts the USA would go to control a petroleuem supply. the price srtaed to go up after the Iraq war. the oil is being traded on the stock exchanges, you think those guys who control the capital believe that invading Iraq was all about Saddam?

In regards to Russia. The Russians are going to emerge as a major international player again, all thanks to the increase in energy costs.

I'm sorry but the data suggests otherwise. In the period from the beginning of 1999 through the end of 2000 (when the Chinese economy really started to pick up) the price of oil went from $12.03 USD to $28.16 USD for monthly averages with a period peak for $34.xx (all prices adjusted for inflation).

In 2001 prices dropped in Nov/Dec and into Jan 2002 below $20.00 and then increased fairly consistently through 2006. The prices I list are refiner cost for imported oil, not necessarily even market cost's which are more flucuating and higher.

Simple matter is that China has increased the demand and the lack of Gazprom investing in increasing oil supplies through exploration and development in favor of using the Russian government to allow Gazprom to take over the existing projects (of which there are increasingly fewer) and share an atrificially high amount of windfall proffits (that need to be re-invested to ensure their future availablity) has really screwed the energy market. Most of the serious forecasts put the decrease in prodution (termed to reflect the lack of an increase of production capacity based on forecasts and discoveries) as well as the increase in demand as having an effect of atleast $30.00 usd.

As for the US wanting to control the energy supplies of the world. That is a matter of opinion. As far as I can tell, and the literature would mostly agree with me, the US is more interested in securing global supply to stabilize prices (since our economy is so dependent on oil) and it is the rest of the world that is freeriding on our need to secure the oil market, China is far more interested in actually controlling supplies where as the US just wants market stability so that market forces can control the prices and supplies.

harsha

20th January 2007, 07:23

so the US can have all the technologies in the world,and it gets to decide on which countries can and can't have Nuclear Weapons :?: ........

Daniel

20th January 2007, 09:13

Han and Chewie saved the day.
ROOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMFFFFFFFFFFF

Personally I think China is just flexing muscles. I think China is too happy selling cheap tat and electronics to the rest of the world to risk eliminating their biggest markets.

Eki

20th January 2007, 12:09

Abolishing weapons in space sounds like a good plan to me:

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,245119,00.html

China signalled yesterday that its first missile strike against an orbiting satellite was intended to force the US into talks aimed at abolishing weapons in space.

As it faced an international chorus of protest against its test — the first such launch for 20 years — its officials insisted that they wanted space to be free of weapons.

"As the Chinese Government, our principle stand is to promote the peaceful use of space," a Foreign Ministry spokesman said. "We oppose the militarisation of space. In the past, in the present and in the future, we are opposed to any arms race in space. Of this everyone can be confident."

Eki

20th January 2007, 12:11

double post

Brown, Jon Brow

20th January 2007, 13:15

As we approach WW3 this is my last post before I go and hide in my air-rais shelter ;)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fM1zULp-26E&mode=related&search=

agwiii

20th January 2007, 13:48

As we approach WW3

this is my last post ...

Approach?

Roamy

20th January 2007, 17:53

Ody
Is that my Dog???

The day I speak German you won't have to worry about it. The earth would have left it's orbit and you would all be frozen in time.

WWW3 - some demented ****ers will just detonate at home and let the cloud take care of the rest. wonder who that iranically could be

EuroTroll

20th January 2007, 18:01

The day I speak German you won't have to worry about it. The earth would have left it's orbit and you would all be frozen in time.

I never realized the American resistance to learning foreign languages was so strong. :\ :p :

Mark in Oshawa

20th January 2007, 18:14

Mark in Oshawa

20th January 2007, 18:17

Of course, some people would think this makes sense, the "I hate America" crowd.....

Roamy

20th January 2007, 18:24

I never realized the American resistance to learning foreign languages was so strong. :\ :p :

It is not - we have to learn spanish to surrive and we have limited learning capabilities.

especially at my age

gracias

Eki

20th January 2007, 18:44

Eki, isn't that sort of like kidnapping a child to protest the kidnapping of children everywhere?

We don't want weapons in space, so here we are, putting a weapon in space!
I think it's more like killing a kidnapper (which I don't condone). We are talking about a defensive weapon here, like an anti-aircraft gun or an anti-aircraft missile. It's even more humane than an anti-aircraft gun, satellites are umanned so nobody gets even killed.

We don't want weapons in space, so here we are, putting a weapon in space!
True, but worse would be sending weapons from space to earth.

race aficionado

20th January 2007, 18:56

Eki, isn't that sort of like kidnapping a child to protest the kidnapping of children everywhere?

We don't want weapons in space, so here we are, putting a weapon in space!

If the intentions of the Chinese leaders are for real, then letting the strong kid in the playground know that you also have toys that can cause harm like the ones he owns - then they can be used as a bargaining chip to have no one use them at all. In other words, if you don't use yours, I won't use mine. Of course this can also degenerate into a "mine is bigger than yours" scenario and that's another story.

also, on another note, it's pretty cool that you can destroy a satellite that doesn't work now and you don't want it to crash on earth once it's gone kaput. Also, I would hope that the destruction would be a "clean" one where not much debris is left on space, which by the way, we are rapidly polluting.

:s mokin:

EuroTroll

20th January 2007, 19:17

space, which by the way, we are rapidly polluting.

Who cares? :p :

race aficionado

20th January 2007, 19:27

Who cares? :p :

Those screws that the astronauts lose when they are making repairs on their shuttle or space station, once they are orbiting space, they have an orbit of their own and can be incoming missiles that can cause real damage.

Also, once my great, great grandson has a condo space bugaloo orbiting our planet, don't want him to be avoiding flying debris as he enjoys the view. ;)

Mark in Oshawa

20th January 2007, 19:28

Race, my feeling is if China doesn't want arms in space, putting one IN Space is a strange way of saying so. Eki, as far as one shooting to the ground from space, that technology isn't there and ICBMS are a far greater threat. Last time I looked, no one rational has even tested one of late (N. Korea might be the ones to try to use one someday) much less use one.

Should anti-Sat weapons be up there? No, in a perfect world they shouldn't, but the fact is Russia, the US and China all have them now. They don't use them against each other because that would be a provocation, but a good defensive posture is to at least have the capablity. To hear the Chinese say they dont' want weapons in space and then say they are launching one is just silly.

As for the pollution in space race, well it is in our own earth's orbit where the debris is, and you are right, all that crap can cause damage to satellites, but that said, to pollute a universe that is made up of large tracts of vacuum is a little bit facetious. We are not polluting up there to any extent trust me. The pollution on earth by nations who are using substandard technology to industrialize such as China and India is the threat.

Eki

20th January 2007, 19:33

To hear the Chinese say they dont' want weapons in space and then say they are launching one is just silly.

Yes, but not nearly as silly as the US calling themselves a "peace-loving nation" while starting a war in Iraq.

race aficionado

20th January 2007, 19:36

As for the pollution in space race, well it is in our own earth's orbit where the debris is, and you are right, all that crap can cause damage to satellites, but that said, to pollute a universe that is made up of large tracts of vacuum is a little bit facetious. We are not polluting up there to any extent trust me. The pollution on earth by nations who are using substandard technology to industrialize such as China and India is the threat.

Mark, chek this out. Your countrymen have been front and forward on this one:

http://142.206.72.67/01/01b/01b_supp/01b_supp_003_e.htm

Pollution in space

In 1995, Canada became the first country to equip one of its satellites, Radarsat, with casing and shields to protect against collisions with garbage orbiting the Earth.

Since the 1950s, many satellites have been launched to serve as communications relay devices and image sensors. But along with the space age came the beginnings of space pollution. Today, space is littered with non-functional satellites and booster rockets.

These pieces of space wreckage continue to orbit the Earth on paths that cannot be controlled from the ground. Collisions are increasingly common and pose a danger to active satellites. At a speed of 15*kilometres per second—a bullet travels at about 1*kilometre per second—even a splinter of paint can cause damage, such as by piercing an astronaut's space suit.

*

Mark in Oshawa

20th January 2007, 20:12

Hey, we build our satellites like our hockey players Race....tough!!

As for your comment Eki, your anti-American bias is well known, we take note and also say, I never claimed the Americans were the peaceniks of the world. One thing is for sure though, no matter what they do, I can depend on you Eki to have your own unique take on it. You have never given an America credit for anything, and I wouldn't expect you to start now.

dchen

20th January 2007, 21:00

I think it's more like killing a kidnapper (which I don't condone). We are talking about a defensive weapon here, like an anti-aircraft gun or an anti-aircraft missile. It's even more humane than an anti-aircraft gun, satellites are umanned so nobody gets even killed.

Actually, they are only a defense weapon until they are used for offensive purpose. Think of this scenario, which is very likely to happen in 2009 (after the Olympics). China takes out the US satellites monitoring the pacific rims, then proceed to launch 400 missiles into Taiwan. This can happen in the matter of 2 hours. By the time US respond and deploy the carrier battle group, Taiwan will be gone. Now, that's an offensive use of a defense weapon. And you can pretty much bet this will happen, especially if the DPP wins again in 2008. I think majority of people in Taiwan are seeing the possibility, whether they admit it or not.

One thing that really did surprise me is the fact that NORAD didn't see this missile going up. At least so far they haven't mentioned anything to that fact. If that's the case, it means China can blindly attack the satellites without anyone knowing. Think about it, the missile uses a kill vehicle to destroy the satellite, so it creates a debris field similar to a space junk strike. Unless you go up and see what's going on, it may just look like a space junk accidentally ram into a satellite. Just like in this case, people didn't realize the strike immediately, people may not realize the attack on satellite in the future until it's too late.

agwiii

20th January 2007, 21:08

I never realized the American resistance to learning foreign languages was so strong. :\ :p :

Não é a verdade

agwiii

20th January 2007, 21:09

Those screws that the astronauts lose when they are making repairs on their shuttle or space station, once they are orbiting space, they have an orbit of their own and can be incoming missiles that can cause real damage.

Only to those in orbit who have a screw loose.

Eki

20th January 2007, 21:36

Actually, they are only a defense weapon until they are used for offensive purpose. Think of this scenario, which is very likely to happen in 2009 (after the Olympics). China takes out the US satellites monitoring the pacific rims, then proceed to launch 400 missiles into Taiwan. This can happen in the matter of 2 hours. By the time US respond and deploy the carrier battle group, Taiwan will be gone. Now, that's an offensive use of a defense weapon. And you can pretty much bet this will happen, especially if the DPP wins again in 2008. I think majority of people in Taiwan are seeing the possibility, whether they admit it or not.

Yes, that's a plausible scenario, but right now I'm more worried about the US starting a war with Iran or North Korea than China starting a war with Taiwan.

Mark in Oshawa

20th January 2007, 21:52

Eki, the Bush presidency will be glad to get out of Iraq at some point, I think your worries about the US starting one with North Korea ar slim and none, but of course, they cant SAY that. The problem with the little twerp running North Korea is he is not governed by anything but the fear of the Chinese taking away his country from him, and if he keeps antagonizing the US, it will be the Chinese that will deal with him.

AS for the Chinese invading Taiwan, they have threatened so much, but at some point, I think common sense would kick in. It has so far, or maybe because the US 7th Fleet is always nearby to help the Taiwan Government in a pinch. Stopping major wars is often a game of deterrence and MAD. To be credbile in this game, you have to prove you have the resolve....so a lot things such as the Chinese putting up a Killer Satellite can be put down under the "resolve" file.

agwiii

20th January 2007, 22:11

Yes, but not nearly as silly as the US calling themselves a "peace-loving nation" while starting a war in Iraq.

Your rabid Anti-Americanism is offensive. I wonder how long you would last on this forum if you were Anti-British?

Eki

20th January 2007, 22:17

Your rabid Anti-Americanism is offensive. I wonder how long you would last on this forum if you were Anti-British?
I believe the moderators and the administrator here understand that Anti-Blair isn't the same as Anti-British.

Mark in Oshawa

21st January 2007, 00:46

Eki, the Chinese put a killersat in orbit, so you defended the action as the fact that the Americans have worse in space. You are anti-American. IF George Bush said he was decommissioning every "killersat" they had in space, you would then bemoan the Americans wasting the money and filling space with junk. Your constant spin has been to drag America into almost any argument as the problem.

IF China puts up a killer sat in space, and says they believe in non-space proflireration of weapons, it is the most STUPID statement one can say, yet you go off on how America has the weapons. The therad has NOTHING to do with the Americans having stuff up there.

Good lord man, I said I don't believe in weapons in space. I AGREE with you but that is just never good enough.
Then you go on and on about America starting more wars. Man you really need to relax, and get a life. America is out of that business for some time. Let me put it this way Eki, if they start another war in the next 2 years, you better start digging a hole because the world will be coming to its end....

race aficionado

21st January 2007, 02:53

Only to those in orbit who have a screw loose.

agwiii, you do have to admit, this is some cool piece of information:

These pieces of space wreckage continue to orbit the Earth on paths that cannot be controlled from the ground. Collisions are increasingly common and pose a danger to active satellites. At a speed of 15*kilometres per second—a bullet travels at about 1*kilometre per second—even a splinter of paint can cause damage, such as by piercing an astronaut's space suit.

:s mokin:

Roamy

21st January 2007, 02:54

Naw its ok there are many like EKI and we will be starting a war with Iran soon so EKI can have more sh!t to spew all over here.

Eki

21st January 2007, 09:09

Eki, the Chinese put a killersat in orbit, so you defended the action as the fact that the Americans have worse in space. You are anti-American.
No, they put a missile in space to destroy their own old satellite. Both the missile and the satellite were destroyed, so they can't be used for military or any other purposes no longer. Get your facts straight. You always expect the worst of countries that are not the US, so that makes you anti-rest-of-the-world.

TOgoFASTER

21st January 2007, 18:05

The Cold War ended in Cuba 1959, when the Soviet Union withdrew its missiles. We entered a period of détente, followed by what we have now - guerrilla war.

Excuse me,
I just love the self acknowledged knowledge of history buffs and renaissance men on the innerweb. :)

Who was President of the USA when the crisis occurred?
What year did he take office?
Does October of 1962 seem a better date and fit for the 14 days of hell known as the Cuban Missile Crisis?

With missiles as well as army and air forces less than 90 miles from your territory would you like to return the favor as a deterrent. There are always two sides of a story after all, right or wrong.

Detente my ass! Kissinger BS through and through. We projected and spent untold millions on systems like the MX for detente only... right. Just like the anti satellite system China tested is for detente... right. Or would your ilk want to contradict some more... as it fits.

But what would you know? It appears you didn't grow up with the Cuba question nor a mile from a SAC base full of B 52's loaded with nukes on full alert everyday for many years before and past 1962. Duck and cover was a joke by the second grade, second grade yes that was 1962. That was a reality and the fear it brought is indelible to those that remember it from living it!
Far more fearful in truth and fact then what the public is told to be fearful of today by those that gain advantage from throwing the word around loosely.

The only answers come from military actions , pro military complex, their god only loves the USA, USA right or wrong, their coming, Custer Manifest destiny crowd really need to get a grip on reality.

As being a proud American from birth, I am not anti- American just because I don't believe your ilk's nonsense or world view, anymore or less than any other would from wherever.
Not an FFL nor coward either.(quite the label maker btw) :)
Nor have I ever taken a blind eye to what my country has done wrong any more than I have with the good it has done.
The mass majority of your own countrymen disagree with you on the many points of your view that you have posted as an 'American view' intended or not.
Not just smart fellow citizens when they agree with you, and bent by the media liberals when they don't agree becoming stupid gullible liberal coward Americans. :rolleyes: :eek:
You sure as hell don't speak for me.

race aficionado

21st January 2007, 18:31

The mass majority of your own countrymen disagree with you on the many points of your view that you have posted as an 'American view' intended or not.
Not just smart fellow citizens when they agree with you, and bent by the media liberals when they don't agree becoming stupid gullible liberal coward Americans. :rolleyes: :eek:
You sure as hell don't speak for me.

ahhh, another fellow veteran, and by veteran I mean " been there, done that, lived that "

1962 in second grade huh? I was in first grade but not living in the states so I didn't have to get under my desk practicing for when the big Russian mushroom cloud would take over and the wooden top of my desk would thankfuly save my life.

interesting times we are living in now aren't we TGF? Let's see who jumps up to volunteer to lead us out of this mess but most important of all, let's see who we actually elect.

China is here to stay and our country will have to deal with it in a diplomatic way, as it should be.

Nice that you are around to post on this forum of ours.

peace

:s mokin:

SOD

22nd January 2007, 02:10

Your rabid Anti-Americanism is offensive. I wonder how long you would last on this forum if you were Anti-British?

instead of "home of the brave", how does "cowardly indebted bullies" sound?

Roamy

22nd January 2007, 04:44

well Sod bring your sh!t on!! get contol of your country and lets ****ing mix it up. but you are probably like most a big hat and no cattle. The fact is that no one in your lifetime no one will be giving us much sh!t. China is incapable of fighting a war inspite of what weapons they may create. and we will always be a step ahead. you can get all you car bombers and all the sh!t but when the hard line comes down we will be kicking ass. so you just need to get a grip because you are a no play in the world with a wannabe mouth. get a freaking life fool.

SOD

22nd January 2007, 04:58

so you just need to get a grip because you are a no play in the world with a wannabe mouth. get a freaking life fool.

well Bush told every country in the world to jump into Iraq, only the UK followed.

Roamy

22nd January 2007, 05:14

well here we are and it ain't gonna change til these fools quit fighting long enough for us to leave. But in the scheme of attacks you will be getting your share as already demonstrated. We may get some chemical sh!t which will force us to take out the entire mideast but just think Sod you by doing nothing will have cheap gas. These people are just begging to die and as soon as the world complies the better off we will all be.

PS Italy came too as did the Poles and Espana plus others

Mark in Oshawa

22nd January 2007, 07:15

I guess SOD didn't hear about the 51 other nations that jumped off the diving board into Iraq.

As for my statement Eki, I stand by it. I said I didn't want to see any weapons in space. You take that as anti-rest of the world. The Chinese proved they have weapon in space, and then experts said it was to force weapons from space, and you see this as some sort of American conspiracy? IT is world-politik and that is all it is. Nations all play PR games, and this one to me is a failure. IF China gave a tinker's damn about not putting weapons in space, they shouldn't have put one there.

Here is the story from the start of the thread:

"Only two nations — the Soviet Union and the United States — have previously destroyed spacecraft in antisatellite tests, most recently the United States in the mid-1980s.

Arms control experts called the test, in which the weapon destroyed an aging Chinese weather satellite, a troubling development that could foreshadow an antisatellite arms race. Alternatively, however, some experts speculated that it could precede a diplomatic effort by China to prod the Bush administration into negotiations on a weapons ban. "

Now, while I see the idea that China can say to the US, Hey, we can knock your satellites and hunter-killer satellites down, we really don't want to do this, in my mind it makes little sense.

First off, Russia and the US own about 2/3's or better of the satellites up there. If they don't put up armed satellites up there in the first place, I wont disagree that the world would be better off. That said, if you DON'T want weapons up there, then don't spend your money and time putting one up there. I notice the "expert" says they would pressure the Bush Administration to remove US ones. I guess they like Russian ones?

Eki, you have to understand something. When you brought up that crap about Reagan's Star Wars, you are really missing the point. First off, the Americans are talking about knocking down missles now by using lasers from airborne platforms, or anti missle technology fired from the ground. Either way, it is still YEARS away, and would only have a purpose if some short round little fella in North Korea starts losing his mind.

Second of all, while I deplore the idea of weapons in space, at least Russia and the US have refrained from using them, and likely have them more as a precaution. The Chinese really gained Nothing from this, except trying to prove they can be idiots too. THAT is the story......

Mark in Oshawa

22nd January 2007, 07:20

One more thing. If the US wants to spend a ton of money on defense spending, it is their business. They obviously have some money to spend, and while I cant disagree they could spend some more money on aid or some domestic programs, it is their political decision. They believe in reliance of the individual, so domestic spending on social programs will only go so far. So they have money to make defence an issue. Some of you think they shouldn't, but judging by the number of people who love to see America take one in the head, I figure their paranoia is somewhat justified.

I will be the first to admit though, on occasion, America doesn't make it easy to love em, but in this thread, with this topic, they should NOT even really be in the discussion. No one wants weapons in space, but if You think because the Chinese sent one up this means there is a crisis, you are wrong. If they start using anti-sat weapons in space, you might as well start digging that hole in the ground..it is over....