ideas for car

[Moby]

Hello everyone,
this is my first post on these forums. :) (im not sure if this is in the right area but seems like the best place)

I am a 16 (turning 17 1 month) year old living in the US. I have gained a large interest in rally car racing over the past year. I became interested because my friend is really into cars as well, mostly drifting though. For the past year i have been building up the courage to ask my parents if i could begin rally racing (in lower events in the SCCA and NASA) and suprisingly they said yes. Well with my knowledge in cars that i have gained in the past year about cars (which isnt very much) i plan to this fall sell my 2000 Jeep Grand Cherokee in for a car that would be more fit for rallying. I would also have $2000 in saved up cash and my parents said they would lend $1000 to make sure the car is safe. Well ive done some research and found that most people recomend getting a cheap car as your first rally car. Problem= my parents are not letting me get a cheap car 5,000< Price margin > 10,000. In fear that the cheap car will have hidden problems that the seller did not make aware and a concern of safety. Another problem is that i will need to be using this car as normal transportation every day, not sure how that will work out, do many people do this?

Well in my research i have found that it is much better to buy a FWD drive car to start out with, im good with that. But now i get lost in a web of things, which car would be most appropriate in my position. I have been looking at the Honda civic (as the spare parts would be abundent) as a possible canidate or a VW Golf (which my mother has previously owned and loved). Obviously these cars will not be new but i would like to hear about any other cars that would be a good rally car. And if i did get the civic or Golf what would be my first step after getting the car.

sorry if the questions sounded rather begginner like, yet again i am a beginner. I will gladly accept any information about rally.

and just wondering, is this a good age to begin rally racing? not that i would take it pro (seeing is i probably dont have the skill) and that i already have a career set in hockey... yeah i know 2 very expensive sports.

thank you,
Moby

[Valve Bounce]

"Rallying" ranges from picnic runs, night runs, club rallying, to full OMIGOD rallying.
For the money you are talking about, picnic and night runs, which will familiarise you with the intracacies of instructions and navigational hazards and tricks as well as get you to find a good navigator/co-pilot whith whom you will get along with. And NO!! the girl friend is a definite NO, NO unless you are after a swift breakup.

I would suggest that before you spend any money, try to join a club and see if you can navigate for someone first. Then you will see what cars are appropriate and the money you need. The one thing I would definitely advise you on is to invest in a car which is robust in a crash, with air bags front and preferably side as well. You will soon find out, at the level you wish to enter and can afford which cars are suitable and which you simply cannot afford.

If I were to entr rallying again, (which my better half would forbid at risk of a divorce), I would go in with a WRX, suitably strengthened for rallying, but you are not talking about that sort of money, are you?? Think of rallying as a bar-b-cue where you use ten dollar bills instead of charcoal for the fire.

[Daniel]

I'd have to say you should wait a few years and spend some time learning how to drive. I knew everything about driving at 17 and somehow I seem to know more 8 years later!

[airshifter]

There are a number of options, but personally I don't see having a daily driver/weekend race car as one of them, unless you stick to something relatively harmless like autocross. Even then you put a great deal more wear and tear on your daily driver, but the chances of major accidents are much lower. Wrecked cars don't give you time to gain experience.

As for age, the younger the better. You learn from mistakes as you gain confidence, and generally most people have better reflexes at younger ages. The only real downside to being young is if you are one to not respect limits and throw caution to the wind too often.

[Moby]

Thanks so far for the responses.

Valve Bounce: Thanks i have taken your advice and am planning to go to 3 races within the next 4 months, I will also volunteer to marshall in them. one of them includes the Susquehannock Trail Rally June 6-7. I also plan to try to find a job at one of the many autorepair shops in my town.

Daniel: Why wait? you only have one life.

Airshifter: Thats what my plan is essentially to start out with. What clubs do you belong to (SCCA, NASA)? Is this what i would be looking for? Are both SCCA and NASA Aoutcross? or is one of them actual rally, from my research it shows both as autocross. Joining one of these leagues will allow me to hone my skills, then after college i think i could take it to another level (maybe, dont mistake this for saying i will go pro). and have you ever heard of the NASA Spec Focus racing (according to this article http://www.sportcompactcarweb.com/projectcars/0110scc_project_ford_rally_focus_part_2/index.htmlStock Focus's make bad rally cars? then why would they make a specific race just for this car) http://www.rallyspecfocus.com/Rally_Spec_Focus/Home.html Do you think it would be right for me? If there are any other racing clubs i should be aware of please point me in a direction i could find out more info. thanks.

In regard to cars: Do most people agree with the idea that one should start out with a FWD car? or would RWD be better? Or AWD (which i read shouldnt been driven by beginners)

thanks all, the input so far has been helpful

[Jag_Warrior]

Since you're in the States, I'd recommend a Honda. Parts availability and price, general knowledge and support are probably better for Hondas than anything else these days. They're like small block Chevys were for my generation.

As for age, you're the perfect age to take some performance driving courses, if you haven't already. You can be saved from developing bad habits if you start now.

I'm not sure what type of rallying you're talking about. Depending on the course, you'll see everything from new WRX's and Evo's to old Porsche 944's and 911's. FWD, RWD, AWD... they just have different handling characteristics. More so than the car itself, I'd say it's (much) more important to learn car control from a professional instructor. A good driver in a FWD Civic can beat a bad driver in a modded STI much of the time.

[Moby]

As for age, you're the perfect age to take some performance driving courses, if you haven't already. You can be saved from developing bad habits if you start now.

I'm not sure what type of rallying you're talking about. Depending on the course, you'll see everything from new WRX's and Evo's to old Porsche 944's and 911's. FWD, RWD, AWD... they just have different handling characteristics. More so than the car itself, I'd say it's (much) more important to learn car control from a professional instructor. A good driver in a FWD Civic can beat a bad driver in a modded STI much of the time.

Could it be any type of performance driving school? I would try O'niel but the price and dates are a cant do. I just wanted to know if it was any performance driving school not just specific to rally. I looked around at rally schools and they all seem to be in the south or in the UK. I would probably try to get a driving school in this fall, if possible.

Thanks,
Moby

[Jag_Warrior]

This school operates at VIR, Watkins Glen and Summit Point, among other places. And on their site it states: "Specifically designed for the teenaged driver."

http://www.carguys.com/about.html

I'm familiar with this one, but there are many driving schools out there. Ask around and choose carefully.

At 17, I know getting the car sounds like the greatest thing. But set aside some of your money for driving instruction. In fact, this would be the best present that your parents could give you. Performance driving could also include wet and winter driving = safety (buzz word that every parent loves to hear).

Good luck.

[Moby]

Thanks alot Jag Warrior,
I looked around at some schools and the Skip Barber Racing school seems most appropriate, its very close and cheap. The one you listed was also good but the locations were hard to reach for me.

Cars im considering: VW Golf, Honda Civic, possibly Nissan b13

has anyone driven a Suzuki Swift Gti? these cars look very good, im not sure what potential it has for off-road use.

[MrJan]

I'd advise starting out with any Tarmac rallies (if yopu have them over there). Gravel events are a nightmare for setting up and ruin the car as well (so I've been told).

As someone who has started competing this year (asphalt time-trialling stuff) I can speak from experience to say it's more expensive than you think. Just getting my race suit and helmet cost £500 (nearly 1000 canadian dollars). Not essential in rallying but the trailer is another £500 (for a cheap one), £400 for the tow bar. Fuel consumption is crazy even though we only have a small engined none powerful car, plus the fuel in the van to tow the thing. Entry fees are another £100 a time. Then you have any repairs (as a youngster you will probably hit stuff, I came very close on my first outing to ending up in the barriers) and also general wear and tear on the car.

What Valve calls picnic and night runs I think are what we call 12 Cars. This is a good place to start because you don't need the suit, helmet, trailer etc. etc. Still it will be expensive, especially when you crash which is almost certain to happen.

I don't want to put you off because competing in proper events is class but just be aware of the serious costs that will probably be coming your way.

[Daniel]

Daniel: Why wait? you only have one life.

True. But you only have a limited amount of funds. Better to learn a bit more about driving on the road and then go rallying with that knowledge than to go rallying and learn how to drive and then run out of funs before you can really start to enjoy things and get a bit of speed up.

Suzuki Swift GTi's make for good rally cars :)

[Azumanga Davo]

True. But you only have a limited amount of funds. Better to learn a bit more about driving on the road and then go rallying with that knowledge than to go rallying and learn how to drive and then run out of funs before you can really start to enjoy things and get a bit of speed up.

I disagree, if he turns out to be a real talent, then that should overcome any sort of deficiencies budget-wise. I very much doubt that the people who can be full-time racing on the budgets they have to be the majority.

Try and get a good local shop or company behind you to pitch in a little for fuel and entrys, that should be a big help.

Car recommendations? Well, bit of research could go a long way. Find out more from people already involved, see which class caters for the smaller (and older) cars that are just right for road conditions. Out and out WRC class will probably be a few more years yet, so keep the notes on the smaller capacity classes first. ;)

And good luck. :)

Now I'm off to find money for my fuel for racing on Friday. Great fun. :p :

[Daniel]

I disagree, if he turns out to be a real talent, then that should overcome any sort of deficiencies budget-wise. I very much doubt that the people who can be full-time racing on the budgets they have to be the majority.

Problem is that for every person who goes on to be a success there are another 100 that just don't go anywhere and run out of money. If he's only got enough money for say a season or half a season then it would be better IMHO to wait a year or two and have a go with the benefit of having just a bit more experience. I wish Moby the best but I'm not about to bet the house on him making his big break into the WRC just yet :)

As Mr Jan Yeo said it's a lot more expensive to compete than you first think it will be. Rallying is especially expensive. You have to travel places, you have to buy tools (usually 2 of everything), you have to fuel your car, you have to repair the car, buy spares, buy tyres, you need your race suit, you'll need accomodation, at least 1 spare set of rims and tyres, a service crew who you will have to feed for the duration of the rally and there's also the entry fee but the co-driver USUALLY pays for that. Plus there's the fact that you want to use a rally car as a daily driver which isn't much fan and means if you bend it you'll be taking the bus to work :)

Just like Jan Yeo I don't want to discourage you. I just think that you could prepare yourself for a career in rallying better by perhaps by buying a very cheap car and racing at a very low level like auto-tests and get a feel for driving a car fast(ish) before you go off into the big world of rallying. Taking a trip to a driving school is a very good start :up:

[Garry Walker]

From a retired rally man who is planning to enter a few small time rallies in the near distant future :)

Go for Golf 100%. It is a good car and suitable for a starting rally driver. But before you start any real rallying, ask yourself this question - are you willing to risk your own life and most importantly, the life of your co-driver? I know at 16 or at 17, such thoughts are usually not considered, but if you want to do something, then doing it half-hearted has no point, especially if it something so dangerous. So you either go for it, or don`t do it at all.

Find yourself a reliable co-driver, who you will trust and who trusts you. Completely.

Driving school might help, or it might not. I never went to one and it didn`t hurt me. I would consider it pointless to be honest. Instead of that find some cheap track and start pounding the track and learning by yourself. If you are any good, you won`t need an instructor. If you suck, then you would suck even with the best instructor in world teaching you. Or you might become much smarter, I don`t know.

Then remember, this is seriously expensive.

[leopard]

You might not have problem with amount of funds, just need to tell parent whatever you likes. The reason why should you wait for another two years because you are underage to have proper drive license. :)

[Moby]

You might not have problem with amount of funds, just need to tell parent whatever you likes. The reason why should you wait for another two years because you are underage to have proper drive license. :)

In the US you can get your license at age 16, I've had mine since October 31 (i got it on Halloween :D )

[Azumanga Davo]

Problem is that for every person who goes on to be a success there are another 100 that just don't go anywhere and run out of money. If he's only got enough money for say a season or half a season then it would be better IMHO to wait a year or two and have a go with the benefit of having just a bit more experience. I wish Moby the best but I'm not about to bet the house on him making his big break into the WRC just yet :)

As Mr Jan Yeo said it's a lot more expensive to compete than you first think it will be. Rallying is especially expensive. You have to travel places, you have to buy tools (usually 2 of everything), you have to fuel your car, you have to repair the car, buy spares, buy tyres, you need your race suit, you'll need accomodation, at least 1 spare set of rims and tyres, a service crew who you will have to feed for the duration of the rally and there's also the entry fee but the co-driver USUALLY pays for that. Plus there's the fact that you want to use a rally car as a daily driver which isn't much fan and means if you bend it you'll be taking the bus to work :)

Just like Jan Yeo I don't want to discourage you. I just think that you could prepare yourself for a career in rallying better by perhaps by buying a very cheap car and racing at a very low level like auto-tests and get a feel for driving a car fast(ish) before you go off into the big world of rallying. Taking a trip to a driving school is a very good start :up:

I'd rather be proactive in any approach rather than sit on my a#$% and have the worst possible outcome being reality.

Maybe find someone who happens to be finishing up rallying can do you a good deal on the equipment, making sure it meets relevant safety and rules criteria.

There's always a way round the slippery slope, just got to be extra watchful on what happens around you.

[Daniel]

I'd rather be proactive in any approach rather than sit on my a#$% and have the worst possible outcome being reality.

If you read my posts you'll see that my opinion has merit. It might to be what Moby wants to do or it might not be the best thing for him but it could be something which helps him have a longer and more fruitful career in rallying. If the guy is the next Sebastien Loeb doing what I say could potentially ruin his career and rob the WRC of a great talent OR it could possibly help him go in a bit later when he's a little more prepared and ready for the challenge that is rallying.

Special stage rallying (I assume that's what Moby means) is no walk in the park and it's not like a lot of motorsport where you turn up in the morning, they check your car is safe and you drive around a small track or up a drag strip.

The worst thing that could happen by waiting a year or two is that Moby would be a year or two older and with that little bit more money and more importantly a bit more experience.

Incidently Moby, have you done any fast (ish) gravel driving yet?

[MrJan]

Never mind fast gravel driving just on asphalt is tricky enough.

I drive fairly quickly on the road at times and like most young blokes like to think that I'm pretty fast. Turns out that I am a toddler taking my first baby steps in driving. Actually competing (even in the very few miles that I've done) is a whole different game and I've been watching motorsport for enough years to have an idea of the principles of racing line and a few other things.

That said my slow laps around Castle Combe were amazing fun (not so much when I spun) and I can't wait for my next sprint in 3 weeks. Of course I am in the enviable position that my Dad paid out for the car (we double drive it) and trailer and my contributions were for my racing clothes, fuel and entry fees.

[GridGirl]

I went on a tour of the Ford WRC team a few years ago and the guy that took us round said lots of people win the lottery or come into money and think about going rallying. The guy basically said that Ford will sell anyone a car for about £400k when you try actually running it you will soon run out of money.

The company I work for has a big sports and entertainment division where we have clients which vary from amateurs to very sucessful professional drivers as well as various race teams. The keys to it all is finding and retaining sponsorship. I know I wouldn't be prepared to invest the amount of money that is actually required to participate in motorsport. Looking at the figures involved they all have a screw loose if you ask me.

Good luck Moby, hope you bank account is big enough.

[leopard]

In the US you can get your license at age 16, I've had mine since October 31 (i got it on Halloween :D )

good if so, I can but suggest you to drive Honda Civic and avoid Jeep and the likes. It usually has deeper gas/clutch/brake that may give trouble when you need to pedal it. :) :p :

[Azumanga Davo]

If you read my posts you'll see that my opinion has merit. It might to be what Moby wants to do or it might not be the best thing for him but it could be something which helps him have a longer and more fruitful career in rallying. If the guy is the next Sebastien Loeb doing what I say could potentially ruin his career and rob the WRC of a great talent OR it could possibly help him go in a bit later when he's a little more prepared and ready for the challenge that is rallying.

Special stage rallying (I assume that's what Moby means) is no walk in the park and it's not like a lot of motorsport where you turn up in the morning, they check your car is safe and you drive around a small track or up a drag strip.

The worst thing that could happen by waiting a year or two is that Moby would be a year or two older and with that little bit more money and more importantly a bit more experience.

Incidently Moby, have you done any fast (ish) gravel driving yet?

A bit more experience of what though? You just said he should wait a while. Where's this magical experience going to come from? He can't do it on his own on a dirt track when a rally isn't on, that'll be against the law and he wouldn't really gain much out of it except maybe a broken car...

And there is a lot more to going up a drag strip as you say than "checking your car is safe". There's the man hours taken up in the evenings if there is some major component damage, same as any sport. Of course, a lot of people here are not made of money to do that on a regular basis what with fuel mileage measured in gallons per mile in some cases, but they still come and have a play.

[Daniel]

A bit more experience of what though? You just said he should wait a while. Where's this magical experience going to come from? He can't do it on his own on a dirt track when a rally isn't on, that'll be against the law and he wouldn't really gain much out of it except maybe a broken car...

There's a lot of experience to be gained merely from driving on the road in high and low grip situations to see how the car will react to various inputs. I consider myself able to drive fairly fast on gravel in a RWD car. I'm not Ari Vatanen by any stretch of the imagination but I'm far more confident now to drive on gravel than I was when I was 17. I remember driving my dad's car on gravel when I was 18 and remeber just being a bit worried by the fact that there wasn't the same level of grip you get on tarmac. But after a few years and a bit of mileage on gravel I'm far more confident.

Do you want to know what the most useful thing was for me?

Jumping in a go kart and driving on a low grip indoor track. What was even better was when I was then allowed into the more powerful ones which were much more of a handful to drive. Another thing which helped was being able to find places where there was gravel and just driving around at low speed, doing things with the wheel, brake pedal and throttle and seeing what the car did. Then as I got more confident I went a bit faster until I found a level where I felt safe and felt I could go fast enough for it to be fun yet slow enough that it was safe in a car without a cage, proper seats and belts and so on. But needless to say there's plenty you can learn about driving without lining up at the start of a special stage and waiting to be waved off.

Call me crazy but I'd hate for the young guy in question here to go and spend all his money on going rallying and go out and not have as much fun as he could. I'm not saying he should wait till he's 40 and has 20 years of driving experience. I'm just saying wait a couple of years and learn that bit more about driving a car and then apply the skills you've learnt when you go rallying.

[airshifter]

Daniel: Why wait? you only have one life.

Airshifter: Thats what my plan is essentially to start out with. What clubs do you belong to (SCCA, NASA)? Is this what i would be looking for? Are both SCCA and NASA Aoutcross? or is one of them actual rally, from my research it shows both as autocross. Joining one of these leagues will allow me to hone my skills, then after college i think i could take it to another level (maybe, dont mistake this for saying i will go pro). and have you ever heard of the NASA Spec Focus racing (according to this article http://www.sportcompactcarweb.com/projectcars/0110scc_project_ford_rally_focus_part_2/index.htmlStock Focus's make bad rally cars? then why would they make a specific race just for this car) http://www.rallyspecfocus.com/Rally_Spec_Focus/Home.html Do you think it would be right for me? If there are any other racing clubs i should be aware of please point me in a direction i could find out more info. thanks.

In regard to cars: Do most people agree with the idea that one should start out with a FWD car? or would RWD be better? Or AWD (which i read shouldnt been driven by beginners)

thanks all, the input so far has been helpful

I don't know anything about NASA, and most of my experience is on asphalt at the amateur levels. SCCA has a great autocross program, and you can learn a lot at fairly low budget levels. I have never belonged to the SCCA but have attended a number of events, and have friends that do local autocross events.

Select either FWD or RWD, but select based on your total budget for racing. Autocross is about car control and handling, and the various classes handicap for power and handling differences. It's not at all uncommon to see people in cheap old cars win their classes. We own a Saturn S-Series car and a lot of people do very well with them in autocross. The sport version with nothing more than sticky tires will pull almost 1G on the skid pad, they handle great, and they are cheap. Many people use them for both racing and daily driving with little more than an extra set of rims and tires.

You are on the right track looking into the schools, and almost all of them will benefit you greatly. I did a short performance driving school many years ago and it was well worth the time. You will also gain a lot from amateur level events.


I would stronly disagree with anyone that tries to tell you to wait. I gained more experience from dirt bikes in my early teens than I did from the first few years of licensed street driving and motorcyles.

[Rollo]

A 1991-1996 Ford Escort (US Version). Why? They're relatively cheap, parts are abundant and no-one in the world will be particularly disappointed if you hurt it.

The car is dynamically quite good, has a fair amount of torque relative to the size of the car and is a nice size to drive.