sorta OT...where did Bourdais rank

[SarahFan]

amongst the CC/CART/IRL racers.....1978-2007


top 5

top 10

top 20


he didn't



* no polls on this forum?

[Hoop-98]

Top 10 for sure IMO, not top 5.

rh

[SarahFan]

Top 10 for sure IMO, not top 5.

rh


if the field was deeper (say late 80's to late 90's) and he racked up the same wins and championships would you have given him top 5

[pits4me]

Top 10 for sure IMO, not top 5.

rh

Who are your top 5 Hoop?

[keysersoze]

1. Alex Zanardi
2. Juan Montoya
3. Mario Andretti
4. Michael Andretti
5. Emerson Fittipaldi
6. Al Unser, Jr.
7. Rick Mears
8. Bobby Rahal
9. Danny Sullivan
10. Paul Tracy
11. Tom Sneva

I'd say somewhere between 10 and 11.

If we go back to the great USAC/CART drivers, you gotta mix both Unsers, Rutherford, Foyt, Johncock, deFerran, Teo Fabi and Franchitti and make a brand new top 20 with Foyt and Mario at the top.

[Miatanut]

1. Alex Zanardi
2. Juan Montoya
3. Mario Andretti
4. Michael Andretti
5. Emerson Fittipaldi
6. Al Unser, Jr.
7. Rick Mears
8. Bobby Rahal
9. Danny Sullivan
10. Paul Tracy
11. Tom Sneva

I'd say somewhere between 10 and 11.

If we go back to the great USAC/CART drivers, you gotta mix both Unsers, Rutherford, Foyt, Johncock, deFerran, Teo Fabi and Franchitti and make a brand new top 20 with Foyt and Mario at the top.

Il Leone didn't make the top 11?

[ShiftingGears]

Top 5.

[Hoop-98]

Who are your top 5 Hoop?

Pick 5 from this list. I'll star the 5 I'd pick today, but that might change with my mood.

Jacques Villeneuve
Alex Zanardi *
Juan Montoya*
Al Unser Jr*
Mario Andretti*
Michael Andretti*
Nigel Mansell
Emerson Fittipalde
Al Unser
Rick Mears
Bobby Rahal
Danny Sullivan
Sebastion Bourdais

Ken, if the field was in any way comparable and he performed at that level, then he would be number 1. But part of the answer is his domination, no other era prior to 2004 would have that kind of dominance. For grins and memory go through the season standings from 1979 to 2007 at CCWS dot com. Anytime you slipped during a season, which Bourdais did a few times, you had 9 other guys going by you.

So it's not Bourdais' fault, he beat who he had to beat, but look at PT from say 99 to 2003. 5, 13, 3, 5, 14, 11, 1. I think Tracy is a top 15 driver maybe arguably a top 10, but the change in competition seems to be pretty obviuos, IMO.

Going back a couple more decades Foyt would be number 1 in the primary US world, and Mario's F1 deal would make him the guy internationally.

rh

[SarahFan]

Pick 5 from this list. I'll star the 5 I'd pick today, but that might change with my mood.

Jacques Villeneuve
Alex Zanardi *
Juan Montoya*
Al Unser Jr*
Mario Andretti*
Michael Andretti*
Nigel Mansell
Emerson Fittipalde
Al Unser
Rick Mears
Bobby Rahal
Danny Sullivan
Sebastion Bourdais

Ken, if the field was in any way comparable and he performed at that level, then he would be number 1. But part of the answer is his domination, no other era prior to 2004 would have that kind of dominance. For grins and memory go through the season standings from 1979 to 2007 at CCWS dot com. Anytime you slipped during a season, which Bourdais did a few times, you had 9 other guys going by you.

So it's not Bourdais' fault, he beat who he had to beat, but look at PT from say 99 to 2003. 5, 13, 3, 5, 14, 11, 1. I think Tracy is a top 15 driver maybe arguably a top 10, but the change in competition seems to be pretty obviuos, IMO.

Going back a couple more decades Foyt would be number 1 in the primary US world, and Mario's F1 deal would make him the guy internationally.

rh


why JV so high?

[Hoop-98]

It's not in order Ken, the stars are my top 5. He did win 15.1 pct of his starts, which is top 10 territiry, also finished very high too. Short career, Bobby Unser should probably be in the list too.


rh

[SarahFan]

It's not in order Ken, the stars are my top 5. He did win 15.1 pct of his starts, which is top 10 territiry, also finished very high too. Short career, Bobby Unser should probably be in the list too.


rh

fair enough...

what about PT....he competed and won against every driver on your list (except mears ans unser sr I beleive)

[Hoop-98]

Well as I said i have him in top 15 and I understand the case for top 10, hey it's opinion, not an exact science.

Here are the top 25 winning pct from 79 - 2000 from motorsport.com. In Zanardi's first CART stint he was the most dominant driver unti Bourdais came along.

http://i29.tinypic.com/34revi9.jpg
BTW, the Foyt data includes 10 wins in 79, not all CART wins for sure.
rh

[Miatanut]

Well as I said i have him in top 15 and I understand the case for top 10, hey it's opinion, not an exact science.

Here are the top 25 winning pct from 79 - 2000 from motorsport.com. In Zanardi's first CART stint he was the most dominant driver unti Bourdais came along.

http://i29.tinypic.com/34revi9.jpg
BTW, the Foyt data includes 10 wins in 79, not all CART wins for sure.
rh

So Il Leone ranks in at #5 as far as an objective measure of getting the job done, was second only to Zanardi as far as inspiring drivers I've had the pleasure of watching in person, but we have a lot of folks who wouldn't put him in the top 10! :laugh:

[Hoop-98]

So Il Leone ranks in at #5 as far as an objective measure of getting the job done, was second only to Zanardi as far as inspiring drivers I've had the pleasure of watching in person, but we have a lot of folks who wouldn't put him in the top 10! :laugh:

He did win races in only 1 season so that might account for that.

BTW I am demoting Al Sr and promoting PT to Top 10 level.

http://i32.tinypic.com/29er48n.jpg

Whoops left out Zanardis return, will fix it later.
rh

[xtlm]

that list in interesting

it shows that the guys that did not stay around that long have the highest win ratio

i wonder if they stuck around for 200 races like emmo, al unser, rick ....etc what their ratio would have been

[Miatanut]

He did win races in only 1 season so that might account for that.
rh

Yeah, but he had everybody but Fittipaldi completely covered that year, including his teammate in equal equipment, Mario Andretti, who is also one of my heros. The Mansell/Fittipaldi duels were some of the best I've ever enjoyed. Both were total commitment all the way!

[Hoop-98]

Tracy had 5 wins too.

http://i25.tinypic.com/5objfs.jpg

rh

[wedge]

Except PT had a habit of throwing races away eg. 1993 Phoenix 200 where he lapped the entire field and fell asleep at the wheel and spun off.

There's question marks over Sea-bass because of the supposed lack of quality of opposition he had and as much as I'm happy for him to be in F1, I'm sure I am not the only person who'd prefer him to put off F1 for another year!

[Miatanut]

Tracy had 5 wins too.

http://i25.tinypic.com/5objfs.jpg

rh

That's very interesting!

It looks like NHR had the ovals figured out, and the Pimp had the road courses figured out. As much as I enjoyed the Mansell/Fittipaldi duals that year, PT was stronger than Fittipaldi.