Engine swap... Should I give into temptation?

[Z34teen]

I've mentioned my Chevy Monte Carlo, but since I can't enter it in rally's (engine's over 2 liters) I figured to tune it for drag races since I can't drift it either because it's front wheel drive. Yes, I have done the proper research.

There's not much aftermarket parts for the stock engine (a 3.4L DOHC V6 aka the dreaded LQ1) and I was wondering if I should swap it to an LS4 (a 5.3L FWD V8).

The stock LQ1 pumps out 210HP @5,200 RPM and 215ft-lbs of torque @ 4,000 RPM with a redline of 7,000 RPM. The engine was originally designed to pump out 270HP but GM had to down the HP for the automatic transmission to handle the engine (They still had to do warranty's). The engine was only offered in a manual between 1991 and 1994 and the manual versions didn't have much more power than the automatic versions.

The LS4 I'm thinking of putting in pumps out 303HP and 325ft-lbs of torque (not sure of the peak RPMs). The engine itself is a revised version of GM's 5.3L truck engine's equipped to fit in an engine bay meant for a V6.

I obviously don't mean doing it in a month, I would probably do the swap over 2 years (if not sooner).The hardest part would probably be the wiring and converting the car to drive-by-wire.

[Zico]

Personally Id sell it and buy a rwd car, because...

Id be able do go drifting.. 100000 times more fun imo
With the exception of the Top Fuels etc, I find drag racing a tad boring.. especially in a moderately powered fwd car.

I think you'd get bored with it pretty quick but maybe thats just me... if you do go on to do it, its not just a case of changing the engine and gearbox, you'll probably need better cooling and an LSD for starters.. (can imagine getting a heavy 300bhp Fwd car off the line cleanly would be a task and a half otherwise) The driveshafts may also need uprating..

Nah.. buy a rwd car, fit an lsd and some cheap tyres and go drifting. ;)

[Z34teen]

swapping everything over from a '05-'08 Pontiac Grand Prix GTP, '06-'07 Chevy Monte Carlo SS, or '06-'08 Chevy Impala SS would solve most of the cooling and LSD problems...

as for weight, the LS4 is all aluminum and weighs less than the iron block, aluminum heads V6 currently in the car. I'm not selling the car itself as it's a family heirloom.

As for the boredom factor, The LS4 would make it a mid-high 13 second car easily... I also want the car not only tuned for drag racing but for street driving too as it will be a daily driver. Even as a FWD V6, it's fun to drive... Personally any speed over the speed limit is considered fun by me regardless of whether or not you're going sideways... I could always spend a fortune on a RWD conversion, which has been done before using camaro and firebird/trans am/firehawk parts, but that would ruin the point of a granny-car sleeper...

[maxu05]

Save the car for transport, and buy a rear wheel driver as a hobby.

[Z34teen]

I wanna make a statement with FWD W-body performance with it... And beyond the Pontiac G8, there aren't any RWD cars I actually like...

[airshifter]

Not worth the time and money if you ask me. There are a host of RWD cars you could make faster for less money, including the cost of the car. Even with big power FWD cars don't hook as well without major suspension mods, so you'll get beat by lesser powered cars.

And if you take a couple years to do it, chances are you might get tired of the project before it's complete. That is a lot of work to get a mid to high 13 second car. You can buy a 125 HP econo car and get it into the 13s with nitrous.

[Z34teen]

I don't care about the money-wise (not that I have deep pockets or anything) because I know that money-wise, it's pointless. The point of doing this is to have a unique car that I'll be able to enjoy. There are other, cheaper engine swap options though...

L36: 3.8L pushrod V6, 200HP, 225ft-lbs of torque. less horsepower than my stock LQ1 but a much bigger aftermarket... also known as the 3800

L67: supercharged 3.8L pushrod V6, 240HP, 260ft-lbs of torque, can get engine into 13 seconds with a few cheap mods. basically a supercharged version of the L36. otherwise known as supercharged 3800

LY7: 3.6L DOHC V6, 255HP, 252ft-lbs of torque, the engine was never intoduced into the W-body cars, but has been used in FWD, AWD, and RWD applications

As for getting a cheaper RWD or FWD car, no. I have a passion for W-body cars like you wouldn't believe. I'm either going to swap in a different engine or work on the stock one, but either way, it will be raced... that and the car has no problem taking down RWD V8's and cheaper econo cars as it is...

Here's proof of the car's performance capabilities...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V-uIua-S2NM
(the song in the video is "Bring me to life (Wake me up inside)" By Evanescence)

[JSH]

The point of doing this is to have a unique car that I'll be able to enjoy.

Dude, you must be a BIG fan of torque-steer. :p

[Daniel]

Don't mean to be rude but why did you ask? You seem to have already made your decision. When anyone says "It's not worth it" you disagree. If you want to do it then do it :) No one here can stop you. They can merely give you their best advice which you're free to ignore :)

[Rollo]

I've mentioned my Chevy Monte Carlo, but since I can't enter it in rally's (engine's over 2 liters) I figured to tune it for drag races since I can't drift it either because it's front wheel drive. Yes, I have done the proper research.

Weight transfer off the line will make your car rock backwards and reduce the mechanical grip of the car. The whole principle of drag racing a front wheel drive car is just a bit silly.

Can't enter it in rallys? Why not? 5L machines are a common sight in Australian rallys at club level. Heck I even know of someone who goes rallying in a 5.8L (351cid) Falcon... now there's a car that gets sideways.

[leopard]

Don't mean to be rude but why did you ask? You seem to have already made your decision. When anyone says "It's not worth it" you disagree. If you want to do it then do it :) No one here can stop you. They can merely give you their best advice which you're free to ignore :)

Don't be discouraged, as long as you came up with level headed idea, the poster might greatly consider it. :)

[Magnus]

IMHO: don´t! For reasons presented in this thread. I am also a bit amazed that you, living in the US, are opposed to RWD. i think it is a lot moe fun, even though I for the moment am driving Mini...

[Z34teen]

Weight transfer off the line will make your car rock backwards and reduce the mechanical grip of the car. The whole principle of drag racing a front wheel drive car is just a bit silly.

Can't enter it in rallys? Why not? 5L machines are a common sight in Australian rallys at club level. Heck I even know of someone who goes rallying in a 5.8L (351cid) Falcon... now there's a car that gets sideways.

Rally isn't promoted here period. so the only professional rule I know of is the engine size cut-off at 2L. Excuse my american stupidity (yes, I admitted it). Sadly, there is almost no rallying here professionally. It's been pushed to the side by NASCAR, which, although I don't like the sport, I know alot more about NASCAR than I do about Rally. Thank you for the advice... I might change my mind to the LY7 with an AWD swap and see what rallys are over here...

I didn't say i was against RWD... I said I wanna stick with this car. Other than the LS4, my personal second choice engine is the LY7, since I can use parts from the other cars it was offered in to make my monte carlo FWD, RWD or even *drool* AWD. although it would be cool if I could get the LS4 to an AWD setup...

as for the weight transfer in drag races, alot of FWD drag cars run wheelie bars, not to keep the car from flipping over, but to keep the weight from transfering back. Torque steer is fine by me if you know how to tune for it...

The LY7 engine you might be more familiar with as it was the base model engine in the 2004 Holden VZ Commodore, 2006 Holden VE Commodore, 2006 Holden WM Statesman and the 2006 Holden WM Caprice.

I know what your gonna say... "I have alot to learn"

[Rollo]

I am perfectly aware that FWD cars generally do have wheelie bars on, but at the point you're jamming 300bhp through the drivetrain, you may as well switch the engine north-south anyway. The tailshaft and diff assembly surely has to be lighter than wheelie bars anyway.

Takeoff times should be generally quicker in a RWD car for precisely the reason of weight transfer, and in a drag car, a quick reaction and jump time is essential.

The VZ Commodore onwards (the Stateo and Cappo are both derivations of it), like the previous models before which used the Buick 3800 V6, are all RWD because its a) easier to work on for mechanics and b) much simpler engineering.

A FWD V8 is just plain daft IMWPO.

[Azumanga Davo]

Even a ridiculously heavy RWD, like a 300C SRT8, can do 13s and lower with the minimum of tweaking. A FWD Monte Carlo will be expensive to convert to begin with, then there is all the go fast bits on top of that.

A recommended car would be an early to mid-1980s G-body (I think it's G-body?) Camaro or Firebird. They will be still numerous in the US, plus with a bit of depreciation they make an attractive bargain. They may not be as light as a Monte, but there would be a lot less time involved.

Plus, FWD drag cars just look completely wrong no matter what you do. Look at the Honda Civics with the large slicks up front. And those wheelie bars would weigh so much to keep the traction up front too. Which would be yet another bonus to a RWD. They don't really need wheelie bars until you start getting serious in the 10 or 9 second range.

[JSH]

Hey I know!! Do your drags in reverse! Weight transfer is right and no wheelie bars... :p

[Azumanga Davo]

Hey I know!! Do your drags in reverse! Weight transfer is right and no wheelie bars... :p

Alas, not every solution is perfect. Imagine the sore neck you'd get... :D

[Rollo]

Solution - fix the wheels so that they can't steer and then attach steering kit to the former front wheels.

And if you did it to an Audi TT... no-one would be any the wiser :D

[RichardM]

Z34TEEN,
Go to specialstage.com You can rally a car with over 2L displacement in the US. I run a 5L Mustang. Also checkout http://www.rally-america.com
Richard

[Z34teen]

thank you Richard... the only person with wanything USEFULL to say! I'm doing the V8 swap and the V8 can't be made RWD because it was made specifically for a FWD car with a V6 FWD transmission. I won't do the V8 swap until I've figured out how much I can squeaze out of my 207CI iron block, aluminum heads, LQ1 3.4L DOHC V6. I would estimate around 280HP,. 290HP maybe without forced induction... I'd say I could probably sweaze out a little over 400HP street legal out of the V6. After that, I'll do the V8 swap, because no matter what you do to it, it's still a V6 granny grocery getter... The V8 would change that.

Monaro Doorslammer, The camaro and firebird are on the F-body. I won't use them because they're overuesd and way too common. G-body would be 1980's Chevy Monte Carlo's, Buick Regal's, Buick Grand National's, and Pontiac Grand Prix's

[Zico]

thank you Richard... the only person with wanything USEFULL to say! I'm doing the V8 swap and the V8 can't be made RWD because it was made specifically for a FWD car with a V6 FWD transmission. I won't do the V8 swap until I've figured out how much I can squeaze out of my 207CI iron block, aluminum heads, LQ1 3.4L DOHC V6. I would estimate around 280HP,. 290HP maybe without forced induction... I'd say I could probably sweaze out a little over 400HP street legal out of the V6. After that, I'll do the V8 swap, because no matter what you do to it, it's still a V6 granny grocery getter... The V8 would change that.

Monaro Doorslammer, The camaro and firebird are on the F-body. I won't use them because they're overuesd and way too common. G-body would be 1980's Chevy Monte Carlo's, Buick Regal's, Buick Grand National's, and Pontiac Grand Prix's

No, I think you've been given plenty USEFULL advice, but you'd already made up your mind before u posted your question, stuborn with it, and with that comment insult everyone who took the time to reply to you.

Maybe http://www.maxpower.co.uk/ is a better place for you, you'll be in similar minded company.



Btw.. Why cant the V8 be used with a RWD transmision?

[Daniel]

No, I think you've been given plenty USEFULL advice, but you'd already made up your mind before u posted your question, stuborn with it, and with that comment insult everyone who took the time to reply to you.

Maybe http://www.maxpower.co.uk/ is a better place for you, you'll be in similar minded company.



Btw.. Why cant the V8 be used with a RWD transmision?
I think he's more likely to get the answers he wants at http://www.Ipostedaquestionbuttakenonoticeofwhatpeoplesay becauseIvealreadymademymindupanywayandwasnevergoin gtolistentoanyonesadvice.com

[Azumanga Davo]

My mistake, then for the body mixup.

Have fun torque steering your way to a tree then.

[RichardM]

Torque steer can be fun. I used to rally a SAAB 900T. :)

[leopard]

Maybe http://www.maxpower.co.uk/ is a better place for you, you'll be in similar minded company.

This is sort of telling me that the most beautiful animal of the zoo here is nowhere ;)

[Z34teen]

ya know what? screw it! just close the topic. I'm sick of having my ideas insulted and being called a moron

[Azumanga Davo]

ya know what? screw it! just close the topic. I'm sick of having my ideas insulted and being called a moron

No one has a called you a moron. You know very well the last thing I want you to do is understeer into some scrub and everyone else would be included in that. That's why we offer advice. Look at Oldsmobile Toronado and what that did for FWD V8s (yes, grim prospect, isn't it?) Only trying to steer you to a safer and more fun alternative.

[Daniel]

No one has a called you a moron. You know very well the last thing I want you to do is understeer into some scrub and everyone else would be included in that. That's why we offer advice. Look at Oldsmobile Toronado and what that did for FWD V8s (yes, grim prospect, isn't it?) Only trying to steer you to a safer and more fun alternative.
Couldn't say it better myself.

Seriously. You said what you wanted to do and people said it was a bad idea to do so and you still want to. If you were set on doing it then why did you ask people for advice?

[leopard]

It might probably only to put forward the reason for something has been done while digging more the better concept besides possibility of justification on the idea from those experiencing the same.

There are always bright side of each discussion, this obviously enlighten me on the planet animal of the zoo.
Seems all have been sorted out. :)

[ST205GT4]

I know you don't want to hear it, but I'm going with everyone else. Save the endless amounts of money you're going to spend doing an engine and then having it made legal (I assume you have to get some sort of engineering permission in the States like we do here in Australia) and buy yourself a better car in the first place.

Honestly, we're not just saying it to **** can your idea. I think you'll probably find there a few people on this site who've spent plenty of $$ modifying cars who are just trying to pass on their experiences.

[Azumanga Davo]

I know you don't want to hear it, but I'm going with everyone else. Save the endless amounts of money you're going to spend doing an engine and then having it made legal (I assume you have to get some sort of engineering permission in the States like we do here in Australia) and buy yourself a better car in the first place.

Honestly, we're not just saying it to **** can your idea. I think you'll probably find there a few people on this site who've spent plenty of $$ modifying cars who are just trying to pass on their experiences.

The rules in the USA tend to be a bit more free in terms of customisation of cars, so that shouldn't present a problem to most.