Discraceful - Olympic torch relay

[maxu05]

I was watching the news tonight, and I must say that I thought the protests that disrupted the Olympic Torch relay were over the top. Sure, there are many things that should be brought to light regarding China, and many people are not happy with China's past history, but get real. This is about athletes coming together to compete in a sporting event. I am not defending China here, but defending the Olympics. One of the symbols of the Olympics is the Olive Branch, and this is a symbol of peace. I think some of the protesters have never even been to China, and most likely don't know the full details of what they are protesting against, but are roped in by others to support their cause. Hey, It's not perfect over here, there are many things that need fixing, and many things that are being fixed, but it all takes time to get 1,300,000,000 people to follow suite. I hope that the games are a success, and that slowly, China starts to reform at a more rapid rate. I live here, and it is a great place to live. Any doubters, come and stay in China for a week or two, and you will see that it is not such a bad place. Oh well, that's my rant for today :D

[Mark]

Have to agree, the torch procession is supposed to be a celebration of sport, and yet it has to be guarded by how many police?!

I felt sorry for the young girl who was carrying the torch for the first time but ended up in a scuffle with protestors as she got on the bus.

I'm all for the rights of people to protest but please do so without disrupting this kind of thing, unfortunately that doesn't seem possible.

[Azumanga Davo]

I was watching the news tonight, and I must say that I thought the protests that disrupted the Olympic Torch relay were over the top. Sure, there are many things that should be brought to light regarding China, and many people are not happy with China's past history, but get real. This is about athletes coming together to compete in a sporting event. I am not defending China here, but defending the Olympics. One of the symbols of the Olympics is the Olive Branch, and this is a symbol of peace. I think some of the protesters have never even been to China, and most likely don't know the full details of what they are protesting against, but are roped in by others to support their cause. Hey, It's not perfect over here, there are many things that need fixing, and many things that are being fixed, but it all takes time to get 1,300,000,000 people to follow suite. I hope that the games are a success, and that slowly, China starts to reform at a more rapid rate. I live here, and it is a great place to live. Any doubters, come and stay in China for a week or two, and you will see that it is not such a bad place. Oh well, that's my rant for today :D

But are they ever going to reform?

This blog has some interesting points, especially if that section about the 'new laws' is true... http://jamesburgess.co.uk/blog/2008/04/06/boycotting-the-olympic-games/

[Magnus]

I agree with you Maxu05, at least to 90 percent.
But many questions remain. the other day a chinese critic was sentenced to jail for 2,5 years for criticising the chinese government on forums and bloggs. Do you feel Maxu05 that you can say what you wont about your government?

I belive also that there is a difference between peronal opinions and the opinions of primeministers and organisations throughout the world. As persons we have the right to express our thoughts, and we can for example believe that the olympic committé runs Chinas arrends by giving them the games. this no one else may control. On the other hand it is a good thing to respect China and the games in a bigger perspective. But it is difficult to say that no one may criticice the desicion to hand the games to China. The discusion is pretty complicated, and no one can say for certain that the games in Beijing will bring human rights in focus in China faster then if they not had been given the games.

OT: What is pretty remarcable is that the leftwing, at least here in sweden, are completely silent regarding the actions taken by China in tibet. They where also silent regarding the regime of saddam hussein and regarding the supression of women in for instance Iran and Afghanistan. It is like if anyone is against the US then they are on their side. Human rights have nothing to do with it with the agenda of the lefties, it often seems. I find it somewhat appalling.

[maxu05]

I am not Chinese Magnus,(I am an Aussie), I have just lived here for 6 years teaching English. There are many things that I don't like here, but, there are so many good things happening here, that the good things outweigh the bad. No country/society is perfect, and I am yet to see a country/system that is. I just hate to see people put something down, that they have never seen with their own eyes, have never been to the place, and get on their high horse and say bad things about people or a nation that they have never been to, and believe everything they read in the media. If I believed everything they printed in the "Sun", (that's the English newspaper), I would have a very warped view of the world,(just an example). I am teaching many young children, and to see the sparkle in their eyes when we discuss the Olympics, and all the different sports is inspiring. These children are all excited about the Olympics. How do I explain to them that their dream of watching the games in their country is being jeopardised by these morons trying to extinguish the Olympic flame with a fire extinguisher. It's the Olympics, I don't think it is appropriate for these protests. You want to protest, then hang out in front of the consulate/embassy, but leave the games alone. There are athletes from all over the world that have trained all their life for such an event, and for some, this is their only chance to make it. Don't spoil it for them. Rant#2 over :D

[maxu05]

PS, James Burgess, don't believe everything you read son. Boycott :laugh: , you will be watching.

[Daniel]

I don't see why the Olympics is so special. China shouldn't have them in the first place. I hope the disruption continues and the games are soured and remembered for years to come......

[Daniel]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/7334545.stm

Hilarious :cheese:

I hope this isn't the last time the torch is extinguished.

**** sport. This is a lot more important than sport. Imagine if it were your country that China had waltzed into? Would you be thinking "Ooh that's sad and all but I'm really looking forward to the field hockey" :rolleyes:

[maxu05]

Nice try son, but no bites today.

[maxu05]

OK, perhaps a nibble. I see that you sport the South African Flag there Daniel, and you are critical of China's past record, sure you must be kidding.

[maxu05]

Cat got your tongue mate ?

[maxu05]

I hope the mouse is getting paid O/T

[Dave B]

OK, perhaps a nibble. I see that you sport the South African Flag there Daniel, and you are critical of China's past record, sure you must be kidding.
The trouble is, it's not just China's past record, is it?

Lots of countries, the UK included, have less than glorious histories but as we've slowly and surely seen the error of our ways, China continue to act in a disgraceful fashion.

[maxu05]

All due respect Dave, but cobblers. You only see what the media puts in front of you. There are always two sides of the story, and anything that China reports is dismissed automatically. Sure China wants to see that the Olympics runs smoothly, and there are no distractions, but every country that hosts the games has the same goal. People re taking advantage of China ,to try and iron out free trade deals, using the Olympics as a lever, IMO.

[Lousada]

I find it amazing that in this day and age an oxygen-eating stick is flewn all over the world and worshipped like it means something.

But okay that was my offtopic rant. These protesters are annoying because it's been known for years that the Olympic games come to China. Yet now suddenly when everything is in place, they start harrassing everybody about some meaningless boycott.

[Lousada]

All due respect Dave, but cobblers. You only see what the media puts in front of you. There are always two sides of the story, and anything that China reports is dismissed automatically.
That's because China is a totalitarian state. It's biased per definition and therefore not credible.



People re taking advantage of China ,to try and iron out free trade deals, using the Olympics as a lever, IMO.
Do you have any examples and/or sources for this big conspiracy you are suggesting?

[Daniel]

Maxu. Sanctions and severing sporting ties helped to end apartheid. Bad example. Try again.

[JSH]

Oh... Are the Ol-yaaaawn-ympics coming again....... :s nore:

[Eki]

severing sporting ties helped to end apartheid.
Did it? Do people really consider sports so important that they let foreigners decide their internal policies just to be part of the Olympics? Boycotting the 1980 Moscow Olympics didn't bring down the Soviet Union and boycotting the 1984 Los Angeles Olympics didn't bring down the USA. They just screwed up the games for the sports fans.

[TOgoFASTER]

I get all my news on China through CCTV 9...
That might be better than say Murdock's faux news, but I doubt it.
;)

[Magnus]

Ok, sorry then maxu05... And btw: i have been to China. Twice actually :)

[Daniel]

OK, perhaps a nibble. I see that you sport the South African Flag there Daniel, and you are critical of China's past record, sure you must be kidding.

As Dave said every country has it's skeletons in the closet. South Africa (where my parents are from) is no exception. But it's history now. China is still doing what it's done for ages but pretending to be democratic at the same time. It's a joke and no one other than yourself is fooled by it.

Why can China just not play nice with it's neighbours instead of flexing it's muscles constantly at Taiwan. You never see Australia saying trying to intimidate New Zealand or PNG or Indonesia. They work with their neighbours and not against them. Then there's the knockoff trade which China's government pretends to care about but basically just leaves alone.

When people talk about South Africa they say "Lovely place, lovely people but just a pity about the violence" but I don't hear such nice things said about China. Perhaps they'd say "Nice place, pity about the blatant disregard for human rights, the sovereignty of neighbouring countries, the intellectual property of western countries, the pollution, the widerspread poverty" and so on.

Myself and the girlfriend (plenty of others too I'm sure) have made a conscious decision not to buy anything made in China from now on. That's our gift to the Fat Cats Republic of China :) Might not be much but it's our way of saying thanks for being such a terrible country.

While I'm in Australia for a few more hours I'll be sure to enjoy my human rights and my ability to criticise the government and not disappear and then when I get off the plane in the UK I'll enjoy the same while you enjoy your lack of free speach and cheap badly made knockoff goods.

Enjoy your scrambled eggs tomorrow morning. Hope the eggs are real :laugh:
http://paultan.org/archives/2006/01/01/china/

[Valve Bounce]

I am not Chinese Magnus,(I am an Aussie), I have just lived here for 6 years teaching English. There are many things that I don't like here, but, there are so many good things happening here, that the good things outweigh the bad. No country/society is perfect, and I am yet to see a country/system that is. I just hate to see people put something down, that they have never seen with their own eyes, have never been to the place, and get on their high horse and say bad things about people or a nation that they have never been to, and believe everything they read in the media. If I believed everything they printed in the "Sun", (that's the English newspaper), I would have a very warped view of the world,(just an example). I am teaching many young children, and to see the sparkle in their eyes when we discuss the Olympics, and all the different sports is inspiring. These children are all excited about the Olympics. How do I explain to them that their dream of watching the games in their country is being jeopardised by these morons trying to extinguish the Olympic flame with a fire extinguisher. It's the Olympics, I don't think it is appropriate for these protests. You want to protest, then hang out in front of the consulate/embassy, but leave the games alone. There are athletes from all over the world that have trained all their life for such an event, and for some, this is their only chance to make it. Don't spoil it for them. Rant#2 over :D

Dear Maxu,

I don't know how much news you get and how much is filtered. I note that you are a teacher, and my advice to you is not to broach this subject any further. Furthemore, do not, under any circumstances, discuss at your school anything about Tibet or Falun Gong, Tienamen Square uprising/demonstrations, anyone that suffered under the Red Brigade, or what happened just after the Red Chinese came to power in the forties.

Keep your head down, be happy you can teach children and that they are happy about sport and the Olympics. You are in a foreign country and must abide by their rules. If you are happy being in China, then so be it - leave it at that. I am happy that I am back in Australia, and now in Melbourne where I can look up and see the sky and never have to breathe that crap each day that you do.

And trust me, I know what I am talking about.

[Daniel]

Did it? Do people really consider sports so important that they let foreigners decide their internal policies just to be part of the Olympics? Boycotting the 1980 Moscow Olympics didn't bring down the Soviet Union and boycotting the 1984 Los Angeles Olympics didn't bring down the USA. They just screwed up the games for the sports fans.

Yes yes it did. It wasn't the sole deciding factor of course...... Tell me what do you think people in Finland would think if you took Ice Hockey and rallying away? Perhaps then you'll understand why not being able to play international rugby and cricket would be so bad for SA.....

[Camelopard]

While I'm in Australia for a few more hours


Aaahhh, That explains it, I was beginning to think that you never slept!!!!

[Camelopard]

Yes yes it did. It wasn't the sole deciding factor of course...... Tell me what do you think people in Finland would think if you took Ice Hockey and rallying away? Perhaps then you'll understand why not being able to play international rugby and cricket would be so bad for SA.....

Yes I think Eki does not understand the importance placed on sport in South Africa and I can include Australia and NZ in that. It may not have been the deciding factor, but it did play a big part.

In my opinion one of the best images of the 1990s was the photo of Nelson Mandela holding up the Rugby World Cup.......

[Valve Bounce]

I think Maxu has a point about the Olympics. It would do great harm to many, many people who have nothing to do with the governing of China.
However, I do believe that the demonstrations in the torch relay would cause many high up in the Government there to lose face, and in the long term, this may be a good thing. But as the Dalai Lama advocates, don't boycott the Olympics, and I go along with that.

[ShiftingGears]

All due respect Dave, but cobblers. You only see what the media puts in front of you. There are always two sides of the story, and anything that China reports is dismissed automatically.

This is heavily ironic considering that the Chinese media is censored by the government, so you don't even get a choice whether you see two sides to the story or not.

[Daniel]

This is heavily ironic considering that the Chinese media is censored by the government, so you don't even get a choice whether you see two sides to the story or not.
Plus there's heavy internet censorship too :)

[Valve Bounce]

Plus there's heavy internet censorship too :)

It is my understanding that anything about Tibet is filtered out from the internet in China. I would not be surprised if Maxu does not fully understand what the protests are about.

But if I were in his place, I certainly would not be making any waves. None of my colleagues in engineering in China would have discussed anything on this subject. Not if you want another contract there.

[Daniel]

It is my understanding that anything about Tibet is filtered out from the internet in China. I would not be surprised if Maxu does not fully understand what the protests are about.

But if I were in his place, I certainly would not be making any waves. None of my colleagues in engineering in China would have discussed anything on this subject. Not if you want another contract there.
Exactly. Of course it's not possible for us to know whether Maxu05 really does believe that China is a lot more free than it is or whether he's just covering his butt.

I just feel sorry for the billion+ people who are fed crap and kept in the dark on so many issues.

[Daniel]

Yes I think Eki does not understand the importance placed on sport in South Africa and I can include Australia and NZ in that. It may not have been the deciding factor, but it did play a big part.

In my opinion one of the best images of the 1990s was the photo of Nelson Mandela holding up the Rugby World Cup.......

Yup :) Very good memory for me too. One of those moments where I'd like to think it didn't matter whether you were black, white, purple or green. It was a great thing for the country. I also remember watching an African Nations Cup final while on holiday in SA when we were staying on a game reserve. Do you reckon the black people working on the reserve were going about their normal jobs? Nope! Sitting in the loungeroom with us watching and it didn't matter because it's great to see people happy and it's great to be "together" with people all those years after being apart. It used to be that Rugby and Cricket where White games and to a certain extent because of tradition they still are. But having black, white and coloured players together in these games is great :) It should hopefully help to show to white, black, green and purple bigots that we're all the same and if only we work together instead of bitching about what happened in the past that the world would be a better place.

I should also add that if China chooses to play nicely in it's part of the world and act responsibly in regards to pirated goods that we shouldn't hold a grudge against them. But I don't see that happening anytime soon though......

[maxu05]

I get the news here, and from the internet, so I get to see everything. My internet is not censored as you may think. If there is a story not broadcast on the news over here, I can go to Yahoo, or Nine MSN and can see everything. Valve, I don't bring my views to school, as my job is to teach the kids English, and part of my job requires that I do not talk about politics, religion etc. It is not right for anyone, in any country to discuss these things as a teacher at a school IMO. Kids are impressionable, and can be easily mislead. It is my duty to set a good example to the children, as they follow everything I say. I will not even be seen smoking when there are children around, as they may follow my actions. I really think China is a place you have to visit to fully understand it. Daniel, the internet is not Heavily censored, as I can see anything I want, any time of the day/night.
My gripe is with protesters that are fouling up something that is effecting countries preparation for a great sporting event. Like I said before, go and protest at an embassy or consulate, don't mess with the torch relay. You may wonder why I am defending this country, that's because I have lived here for 6 years, and I love it here. The people are friendly, generous, and very kind, and they deserve better than what people say about the place. China is at the beginning of a transition IMO, but as I have said before, this will take time. Things of this magnitude do not happen over night, and messing with the torch relay is not going to make a difference one bit. All it will do is spoil things for athletes that have no interest in politics etc.

[Mark]

You have to give the protestors credit though, they are getting massive worldwide publicity for their efforts.

[Valve Bounce]

I get the news here, and from the internet, so I get to see everything. My internet is not censored as you may think. If there is a story not broadcast on the news over here, I can go to Yahoo, or Nine MSN and can see everything. Valve, I don't bring my views to school, as my job is to teach the kids English, and part of my job requires that I do not talk about politics, religion etc. It is not right for anyone, in any country to discuss these things as a teacher at a school IMO. Kids are impressionable, and can be easily mislead. It is my duty to set a good example to the children, as they follow everything I say. I will not even be seen smoking when there are children around, as they may follow my actions. I really think China is a place you have to visit to fully understand it. Daniel, the internet is not Heavily censored, as I can see anything I want, any time of the day/night.
My gripe is with protesters that are fouling up something that is effecting countries preparation for a great sporting event. Like I said before, go and protest at an embassy or consulate, don't mess with the torch relay. You may wonder why I am defending this country, that's because I have lived here for 6 years, and I love it here. The people are friendly, generous, and very kind, and they deserve better than what people say about the place. China is at the beginning of a transition IMO, but as I have said before, this will take time. Things of this magnitude do not happen over night, and messing with the torch relay is not going to make a difference one bit. All it will do is spoil things for athletes that have no interest in politics etc.

From your rants #1 and #2, you seem not to focus on the fact that the protests and demonstrations are about China's actions in Tibet. Killing Tibetans is not good!!

Secondly, I have to disagree about having to be in China to know what is going on. During the Tienanmen Square massacre, I was in Macau and watched the whole thing live on TV.

Thirdly, did you know there were bodies floating down the Pearl River to Hong Kong from China, hands tied behind their backs, during the Cultural revolution.

And fourthly, I was at the border to meet Fr Cambon of the French Missions in China after the Communist takeover. His wrists showed the fresh scars of manacles. He also told stories of the nuns being blindfolded and paraded around the square while people were ordered to spit on them.

As I said, you don't really have to be in China to know what happened there.

So, not to be unkind, maybe you can tell us what you know about China. Perhaps you may know a little less than I do.

[BDunnell]

All due respect Dave, but cobblers. You only see what the media puts in front of you. There are always two sides of the story, and anything that China reports is dismissed automatically. Sure China wants to see that the Olympics runs smoothly, and there are no distractions, but every country that hosts the games has the same goal. People re taking advantage of China ,to try and iron out free trade deals, using the Olympics as a lever, IMO.

And what does the Chinese media put in front of you about the regime's behaviour, then? I'd be fascinated to know, just like I'd be fascinated to know what you think the Chinese government has been up to in Tibet, rather than the usual refrain of 'things here aren't as bad as the Western media portrays' without any evidence to back it up.

This idea that the Olympic ideal is something worth preserving is hopelessly outdated now, anyway. The corruption scandals surrounding the IOC have seen to that. Hearing IOC members going on about how disgraceful they think the protests are because the Olympic ideal is worth celebrating seems very hollow, given the lack of interest the body showed in dealing with serious corruption allegations that have harmed the very ideal they claim to uphold.

[gadjo_dilo]

1.Why should politics mingle with sports? It's unfair to pretend to athlets to boycot a competition whose purpose is peace and friendship. I think there isn't any guy in sport who's not dreaming to win an olympic medal. Just think of those who work years and years for this. Is it fair to ask then to give up their dream?

2. When I think of Tibet my first thought is about those quiet peaceful monks. In my mind a movement for tibetan liberation can't be associated with violence. Especially against of a peace symbol ( olympic torch ). Not to mention that it's a violence meant just to stop another violence.

3. What's the use to continue the torch march around the world? Shouldn't it stay unextincted as a symbol?
I understand the solidarity with tibetans in the western world but why such fuss now when the situation in Tibet is well known for years?

5. Some of you speak about China's need of democracy but it seems that at this moment the most important thing is its stability. Although I wish I live the day when China will open its borders. Can't wait to see the reactions of those who now coplain of a few thousand east europeans. :laugh:

6. Interesting point of view from maxu05. I know what he means as sometimes I felt the same on my own skin. Still I have a question for him: how is he paid? As an ordinary chinese teacher or like an australian?

Conclusion: Olympic Games can't solve the political problem of Tibet but who cares of it? In the meantime one of the last beautiful things was splashed with mud.

[anthonyvop]

Did it? Do people really consider sports so important that they let foreigners decide their internal policies just to be part of the Olympics? Boycotting the 1980 Moscow Olympics didn't bring down the Soviet Union and boycotting the 1984 Los Angeles Olympics didn't bring down the USA. They just screwed up the games for the sports fans.
Who boycotted the 84 Olympics?

The Olympics are a Political Athletic event. The Teams are divided by nationality. Success is decided by each nations medal count.

Appeasment and political correctness of the IOC led to the games being held in China and now they have to witness the fruits of their decision.

Now if Somebody could just send the Dali Lama away so they can get started in really trying to help the Tibetans.

[Storm]

**** sport. This is a lot more important than sport. Imagine if it were your country that China had waltzed into? Would you be thinking "Ooh that's sad and all but I'm really looking forward to the field hockey" :rolleyes:

They did it once in a part of my country (1962) and even now we are treading on the fine line with them over another bordering area of our country which the Chinese are looking at.....Our governments have lacked a backbone in the past and even now they are not protesting very strongly for fear of the red dragon...
even after losing thousands of soldiers and a chunk of our land in the 62 war..

[maxu05]

Firstly. China has many minority groups, and they are all given special treatment according to their needs. many minority groups/races get special rights, in fact more than what the average Han Chinese person gets. Tibet is a beautiful place, and the people have a chance to live a great life. I think some stupid people have been trying to make trouble, and the timing of this is suspect. Why didn't these protests happen one or two years ago ? They just had to coincide with the Olympics. As I said before, the Olympics are about piece and unity, so at least give China the chance to show the world more about the country.
Magnus, when did you go to China, and where ? Did you stay at a nice hotel ?
I live in the suburbs at the moment, so I meet everyone, not just the City folk. I mix with the every day folk, from the rubbish collector, to the owner of the company that many Western companies buy their products.
If any of you still stand by your anti Chinese sentiments, I challenge you to jump on a plane for China, come on over, I will provide you with accommodation, feed you, and show you the China that the Western Media does not show you. Any takers ? Send me a PM if you would like to come over and see the place for yourself.

[BDunnell]

Firstly. China has many minority groups, and they are all given special treatment according to their needs. many minority groups/races get special rights, in fact more than what the average Han Chinese person gets. Tibet is a beautiful place, and the people have a chance to live a great life. I think some stupid people have been trying to make trouble, and the timing of this is suspect. Why didn't these protests happen one or two years ago ? They just had to coincide with the Olympics. As I said before, the Olympics are about piece and unity, so at least give China the chance to show the world more about the country.
Magnus, when did you go to China, and where ? Did you stay at a nice hotel ?
I live in the suburbs at the moment, so I meet everyone, not just the City folk. I mix with the every day folk, from the rubbish collector, to the owner of the company that many Western companies buy their products.
If any of you still stand by your anti Chinese sentiments, I challenge you to jump on a plane for China, come on over, I will provide you with accommodation, feed you, and show you the China that the Western Media does not show you. Any takers ? Send me a PM if you would like to come over and see the place for yourself.

I remain confused. Are you saying that taking a trip to China in which I am not shown any human rights abuses will dispel my dislike of the actions of its regime? None of us are saying that everyone in China is constantly being abused by the state, but surely you cannot deny that its actions deserve criticism and that any one-party state is undesirable? Some more specific examples of why the Western media has got it so wrong about China's human rights record would be welcome.

In addition, I am sure that there are people living in Zimbabwe who can't see what all the criticism is about.

[maxu05]

So it's just coincidence that these protests are happening now, why not 1 or 2 years ago ? I am not saying that the Gov here has got it right, just stating that everything that happens here is blown out of proportion by the media. The Gov is tough on certain issues, granted, but it is not to the extent that is reported to the rest of the world. If you could see everyday life here, you would see that it makes diddly squat difference who runs the country, life is still the same. Why did England go to the Falklands to fight for an Island that is nowhere near their territory ? I didn't see protests over that one, Where are the protests over Iraq ? I am sure there must be some, but they don't get the air time on TV. Bring on the Olympic flame, and make a noise and get on the 6pm news, I am sure that this is what most of these morons are thinking. Zimbabwe and China, Chalk and Cheese IMO.

[BDunnell]

So it's just coincidence that these protests are happening now, why not 1 or 2 years ago ?

Of course they've been happening for ages, but they have new prominence at the moment because of the Olympic torch relay. There's nothing unusual about that. Why is this a surprise?


I am not saying that the Gov here has got it right, just stating that everything that happens here is blown out of proportion by the media. The Gov is tough on certain issues, granted, but it is not to the extent that is reported to the rest of the world.

Give me some specific examples of events that have been exaggerated and tell me what really happened.


If you could see everyday life here, you would see that it makes diddly squat difference who runs the country, life is still the same.

The same could have been said of East Germany - the regime there was everyday life, because it pervaded virtually all activities. Did you consider this to have been a healthy situation?


Why did England go to the Falklands to fight for an Island that is nowhere near their territory ?

Because it was UK territory and had been since the 1800s, because the British had never committed any human rights abuses against the islanders, who enjoyed a decent life there (and continue to do so), and because hardly any of the islanders wanted to be ruled by Argentina. And there are plenty of people in the UK who believe that the Falklands should be given up. With respect, your comparison is entirely irrelevant.


Where are the protests over Iraq ? I am sure there must be some, but they don't get the air time on TV.

Yes, there still are anti-Iraq war protests, but of course they don't get much coverage at the moment because they are not especially notable. Quite rightly, they received massive coverage at the time of the lead-up to the war in 2003 and after the conflict started. It is only natural that their prominence has decreased since, but they still happen and many people are still opposed to the conflict there. At the moment, the Chinese Olympics are in the news, so those protests have gained in importance. It's entirely natural.

[BDunnell]

Oh, and by the way, can we change the spelling of the thread title?

[maxu05]

Oh, and by the way, can we change the spelling of the thread title?

Why ? Please explain.

[Valve Bounce]

So it's just coincidence that these protests are happening now, why not 1 or 2 years ago ? I am not saying that the Gov here has got it right, just stating that everything that happens here is blown out of proportion by the media. The Gov is tough on certain issues, granted, but it is not to the extent that is reported to the rest of the world. If you could see everyday life here, you would see that it makes diddly squat difference who runs the country, life is still the same. Why did England go to the Falklands to fight for an Island that is nowhere near their territory ? I didn't see protests over that one, Where are the protests over Iraq ? I am sure there must be some, but they don't get the air time on TV. Bring on the Olympic flame, and make a noise and get on the 6pm news, I am sure that this is what most of these morons are thinking. Zimbabwe and China, Chalk and Cheese IMO.

Maybe because the Chinese had been killing Tibetans for the last few months by the hundred! or haven't you noticed?

[gadjo_dilo]

Who boycotted the 84 Olympics?
.

The countries from the communist block except for Romania who managed to win 20 gold medals. :laugh:

[maxu05]

I think the reports are exagerated. But, If it's true, I would be the first to put up my hand and say I am wrong. But, as it stands, I really think the news reports are partially ficticious.

[BDunnell]

Why ? Please explain.

'Disgraceful', not 'discraceful'.

[BDunnell]

I think the reports are exagerated. But, If it's true, I would be the first to put up my hand and say I am wrong. But, as it stands, I really think the news reports are partially ficticious.

What leads you to that conclusion? The Chinese media or the notion that because you personally haven't witnessed any human rights violations, the reports must be exaggerated. I suspect the vast majority of Chinese people haven't witnessed them or been affected by them, but this doesn't make the actions we know about OK.

[maxu05]

Thanks Mr Wizard, glad we got that all sorted ;)

[maxu05]

And what exactly have you witnessed ?

[BDunnell]

And what exactly have you witnessed ?

That's hardly the point, is it? You're the one who's there and claiming that the Western reports are exaggerated without citing any of these reports or giving specific examples.

[maxu05]

I think it's a very valid point. You are ready to burn the witch at the stake, without knowing all the facts. Tell me the acts you have witnessed, then I can further explain my point of view. I started this thread to complain about the torch relay protests, and how they are meaningless, and just plain stupid. I have stated before, that I know that China has many flaws, and that they will take time to sort. I just can't see what it will gain anyone from putting the whole country down for something that the average person on the street has no control over. As I have said, the average child at my school is excited by the prospect of having the Olympics here, so, don't spoil it for them. These children will be the leaders of this country in the future.

[BDunnell]

I think it's a very valid point. You are ready to burn the witch at the stake, without knowing all the facts. Tell me the acts you have witnessed, then I can further explain my point of view.

It has nothing to do with whether I have witnessed any human rights violations in China. Of course I haven't. You are the one saying that you believe the reports we all see in the West have been exaggerated. Which reports, exactly? The ones about the recent crackdown in Tibet? The jailing of pro-human rights campaigners like Hu Jia for saying things that ought to be simple matters of free speech?

And, while we're at it, do you believe that Western reports of human rights abuses in other countries are exaggerated, or is it just China that's singled out for such unfair treatment?


As I have said, the average child at my school is excited by the prospect of having the Olympics here, so, don't spoil it for them. These children will be the leaders of this country in the future.

Hopefully they will be able to make up their own minds about the Olympics based on open reporting of the corrupt affairs of the IOC, which have done so much to tarnish the name of the Games without their being awarded to undemocratic regimes. Do you have this same wish?

[Daniel]

Seriously Maxu. You could be the next Chinese President or Prime Minister or whatever their head is called. You have the right attitude for it :up:

[Drew]

That's the problem with democracy, you see, people are allowed to express their beliefs :arrows:

[maxu05]

I just think that these protests are going too far, that's all. Leave the torch alone for .... sake. As I have said before, go and protest at the embassy if you have a problem with China, don't ruin the games for all the athletes that have worked and trained their butts off to get there. I don't like arguing, and I don't like upsetting people, I tend to go with the flow, so I will stand down now, and see what happens in the near future. My offer is open for any forum member that wishes to visit, and see what China is like, (and I am not talking about 5 star hotel BS, but down to earth China). Critics, well, there are many, but seeing is believing IMO.

[Daniel]

I just think that these protests are going too far, that's all. Leave the torch alone for .... sake. As I have said before, go and protest at the embassy if you have a problem with China, don't ruin the games for all the athletes that have worked and trained their butts off to get there. I don't like arguing, and I don't like upsetting people, I tend to go with the flow, so I will stand down now, and see what happens in the near future. My offer is open for any forum member that wishes to visit, and see what China is like, (and I am not talking about 5 star hotel BS, but down to earth China). Critics, well, there are many, but seeing is believing IMO.
What about Tibetans who've worked their whole life to be Tibetan and not Chinese? Who gives China the right to ruin their LIVES. Athletes have the choice whether to compete or not. These people didn't choose for China to walk into their country....

[BDunnell]

My offer is open for any forum member that wishes to visit, and see what China is like, (and I am not talking about 5 star hotel BS, but down to earth China). Critics, well, there are many, but seeing is believing IMO.

I can only repeat the point that not seeing human rights abuses on a visit to China doesn't mean that they don't occur.

[Azumanga Davo]

'Disgraceful', not 'discraceful'.

Any self-respecting English teacher would have known that. ;)

A new generation of ocker Chinese is on their way, people. That must be bonzer... :D

[maxu05]

[quote="Monaro Doorslammer"]Any self-respecting English teacher would have known that. ;)

That depends on how many beers you have had when you type ;)

[Azumanga Davo]

A tanked up English teacher. That can't be a common thing... :p : Woodwork and metalwork teachers I can understand (one of mine had a couple of Glenfiddich's finest in his desk drawer most days... ;) )

[maxu05]

Ah, when I finish work, I drink beer. I do not drink beer during work hours. As for tanked up ? I work my ass off over here, and when I leave work, I have a few beers with some friends, and sometimes come home late and check the forums. Try teaching English to kids that have little or no English skills for 8 hours every day, and tell me that you wouldn't enjoy relaxing with a cold frosty brew or two. Have a beer after a hard weeks work, make a typo and you are tanked up ?

[SEATFreak]

I don't know if anyone has mentioned this since so many has wrote so much and so passionately but The Wright Stuff talked about this yesterday and a caller mentioned that the torch is not representative of a nation but of the Olympics as an event.

So to target the torch relay (or "torch publicity stunt" as I call it - which Olympics did former Blue Peter presenter Konnie Huq run for Britain in again??) as a means of getting across a political point even though yes China's human rights; especially when it comes to Tibet and the Dalia Lama, is just nonsensical and gets across nothing. China has an embassy in the UK surely. Would that not be a better place to go to protest against that nations human rights atrocities?

Problem is now that Gordon Brown now has China as an economical bedfellow it is unlikely our PM will do anything about it.

[BDunnell]

I don't know if anyone has mentioned this since so many has wrote so much and so passionately but The Wright Stuff talked about this yesterday and a caller mentioned that the torch is not representative of a nation but of the Olympics as an event.

So to target the torch relay (or "torch publicity stunt" as I call it - which Olympics did former Blue Peter presenter Konnie Huq run for Britain in again??) as a means of getting across a political point even though yes China's human rights; especially when it comes to Tibet and the Dalia Lama, is just nonsensical and gets across nothing. China has an embassy in the UK surely. Would that not be a better place to go to protest against that nations human rights atrocities?

Given that one of the world's highest-profile events is being held in a country that is one of the world's highest-profile abusers of human rights, it is to be expected that the event will be a focus of protest. It's for exactly the same reason, with a bit more ideology thrown in, that the USA boycotted the 1980 Moscow Olympics.

[Tomi]

Given that one of the world's highest-profile events is being held in a country that is one of the world's highest-profile abusers of human rights, it is to be expected that the event will be a focus of protest. It's for exactly the same reason, with a bit more ideology thrown in, that the USA boycotted the 1980 Moscow Olympics.

True but it will not happen this time, too much money involved, what do you think would happen if China suddeny would stop loaning money to usa?

[Valve Bounce]

I think the reports are exagerated. But, If it's true, I would be the first to put up my hand and say I am wrong. But, as it stands, I really think the news reports are partially ficticious.

At the risk of sounding patronising, I would stress that you would be well advised to keep your hand down, keep your head down, and blissfully enjoy your China.

I won't go into detail of the reports and pictures smuggled out of Tibet by journalists and visitors and published here - let's leave it at that.

[Camelopard]

Firstly. China has many minority groups, and they are all given special treatment according to their needs. many minority groups/races get special rights, in fact more than what the average Han Chinese person gets. Tibet is a beautiful place, and the people have a chance to live a great life. I think some stupid people have been trying to make trouble, and the timing of this is suspect. Why didn't these protests happen one or two years ago ? They just had to coincide with the Olympics. As I said before, the Olympics are about piece and unity, so at least give China the chance to show the world more about the country.
Magnus, when did you go to China, and where ? Did you stay at a nice hotel ?
I live in the suburbs at the moment, so I meet everyone, not just the City folk. I mix with the every day folk, from the rubbish collector, to the owner of the company that many Western companies buy their products.
If any of you still stand by your anti Chinese sentiments, I challenge you to jump on a plane for China, come on over, I will provide you with accommodation, feed you, and show you the China that the Western Media does not show you. Any takers ? Send me a PM if you would like to come over and see the place for yourself.

Actually the Chinese shut down Tibet to foreigners at the beginning of 2007 due to some tourists unfurling a 'Free Tibet' flag. There was also an incident of Chinese soldiers killing unarmed Tibetians as they tried to flee Tibet as well, althought the spin that the government put on that was the Tibetians were armed and fired at the soldiers, unfortunately for the government this episode was filmed by a mountaining group.

http://asiapacific.amnesty.org/apro/aproweb.nsf/pages/appeals_china_UA27706

As for your offer, I can't accept at the moment and I certainly wouldn't go to China this year. A return to China (yes I've been there twice and I didn't stay in 5* hotels) is planned for 2012 as I want to go to areas that were banned to tourists last time I was there.

[Valve Bounce]

Actually the Chinese shut down Tibet to foreigners at the beginning of 2007 due to some tourists unfurling a 'Free Tibet' flag. There was also an incident of Chinese soldiers killing unarmed Tibetians as they tried to flee Tibet as well, althought the spin that the government put on that was the Tibetians were armed and fired at the soldiers, unfortunately for the government this episode was filmed by a mountaining group.

http://asiapacific.amnesty.org/apro/aproweb.nsf/pages/appeals_china_UA27706

As for your offer, I can't accept at the moment and I certainly wouldn't go to China this year. A return to China (yes I've been there twice and I didn't stay in 5* hotels) is planned for 2012 as I want to go to areas that were banned to tourists last time I was there.

For a start, you are not going to be permitted to travel to Tibet, that's for sure. The current OLympic Torch protests are China's crackdown on Tibet and the number of Tibetans killed.

It is my understanding there is a blackout in CHina (including internet) on all news about Tibet. It is my understanding that any world news on Tibet was completely filtered out. The recent permit to a limited number of journalists to tour Tibet (heavily guided) was a PR disaster for China when a number of crying Monks came streaming out of one of the monasteries where they were being closetted, gave their side of what was happening to the press and this was shown worldwide.

I don't think that the current protests have much to do with the general lack of human rights in China itself (I consider Tibet a foreign country to China), and we didn't see anyone doing Falun Gong along the Olympic torch route.

Kevin Rudd has made it clear that Chinese security guards
will not be permitted to run with the Olympic relay in Canberra around April 24.

[Camelopard]

Interesting reading about the modern torch, from

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Olympic_Flame

"The fire was reintroduced at the 1928 Summer Olympics (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1928_Summer_Olympics) in Amsterdam (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amsterdam), and it has been part of the modern Olympic Games ever since. The modern torch relay was introduced by Joseph Goebbels (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joseph_Goebbels), as part of an effort to turn the games into a glorification of the Third Reich (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Third_Reich)."

As far as mixing the Olympics with politics this has been the case for quite a few years, you may be too young to remember the Black Panther salute at the Mexico City games in 1968.

http://www.smh.com.au/olympics/articles/2004/06/18/1089484304254.html

[maxu05]

Not that young, I do recall the Black Panther salute, as I have seen it many times.

[Valve Bounce]

Owing to the lack of response about Tibetans getting killed, I am moved to ask whether the contents of this thread are being censored before the thread reaches China.

Anyone know?

[Mark]

Actually the Chinese shut down Tibet to foreigners at the beginning of 2007 due to some tourists unfurling a 'Free Tibet' flag. .

Sounds like Northern Ireland in the bad old days when someone flying an Irish tricolour would provoke a response from the army. These days you can fly whatever flag you like. (Which causes its own problems but that's other story)

[gadjo_dilo]

Athletes have the choice whether to compete or not.
Definitely you haven't practiced a sport in your life. :laugh:

[maxu05]

Nothing that I have written, and nothing that I have read has been censored. Sure, Tibetans have been killed, and also Han Chinese have been killed as well.

[janneppi]

Owing to the lack of response about Tibetans getting killed, I am moved to ask whether the contents of this thread are being censored before the thread reaches China.

Anyone know?

You mean someone would pay for example some Nordic moderator large summs of money so he would censor how posts are visible according to regions.
You know perfectly well I wouldn't be able to comment on such matters. :p :

[Valve Bounce]

You mean someone would pay for example some Nordic moderator large summs of money so he would censor how posts are visible according to regions.
You know perfectly well I wouldn't be able to comment on such matters. :p :

This is not a flippant remark that I make. The point is that we had a report here that the Chinese Govt. had mobilised a large team of computer technicians to filter out all news on Tibet before it got into China.

I am questioning that they could gain access to the contents of this forum and eliminate or filter out comments made about China's human rights abuses against Tibetans.

Besides I was hoping that Mark may like to comment on this.

[Valve Bounce]

Nothing that I have written, and nothing that I have read has been censored. Sure, Tibetans have been killed, and also Han Chinese have been killed as well.

For goodness sake, I am not talking about the stuff that you read; I am talking about things that you were never able to read. DUH!!! I cannot go further with this post as I would be banned by pino for making an attack on another forum member.

[Camelopard]

Actually Maxu05, I would be very interested to hear if you have access to the following link without restriction that I provided earlier.

http://asiapacific.amnesty.org/apro/aproweb.nsf/pages/appeals_china_UA27706

[Valve Bounce]

Actually Maxu05, I would be very interested to hear if you have access to the following link without restriction that I provided earlier.

http://asiapacific.amnesty.org/apro/aproweb.nsf/pages/appeals_china_UA27706

This would be most interesting for me to know also.

[maxu05]

I get your point Valve, and appreciate your concerns. I just think that many things are exaggerated, that's all. I will make no further comments on the topic, and hope that peace and harmony can be restored to the region. I hope that I have not offended anyone on the forum with my comments, but, I too, have my opinions, and am not afraid to share them, but, upsetting other forum members is not on my agenda, I hope you understand that. Best wishes to you all, and I hope that the Olympics go ahead with no more drama's. I wish the country you support at this sporting event the best of luck, and hope that you enjoy watching the games. Over and out.

[Valve Bounce]

I get your point Valve, and appreciate your concerns. I just think that many things are exaggerated, that's all. I will make no further comments on the topic, and hope that peace and harmony can be restored to the region. I hope that I have not offended anyone on the forum with my comments, but, I too, have my opinions, and am not afraid to share them, but, upsetting other forum members is not on my agenda, I hope you understand that. Best wishes to you all, and I hope that the Olympics go ahead with no more drama's. I wish the country you support at this sporting event the best of luck, and hope that you enjoy watching the games. Over and out.

There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, than are dreamt of in your philosophy.

[Azumanga Davo]

This would be most interesting for me to know also.

Copy and paste the first two paragraphs, thanks Maxu... ;)

[Valve Bounce]

...........in San Francisco. Not only are police there in abundance, they are shifting the route so nobody knows where it is and very few can view it.

Why not just lock up a stadium and run the torch around there in the empty stadium?

[Valve Bounce]

I know our friend in China won't be able to access this link from The Age :http://www.theage.com.au/news/national/torch-thugs-from-elite-tibet-force/2008/04/09/1207420486483.html

but I just thought I'd post it in case anyone else has any doubts as to what is going on, not only in the Torch relay but also in Tibet.

For once I have to give it to our PM Kevin Rudd (I am a Liberal supporter) who not only had the balls to criticise Chinese Human rights record in Tibet when he spoke in putonghua to students from Beijing Uni, but he will speak to the Chinese leadership face to face about it later today.
If you want to read about it, just access The Age and check out the other stories.

[jso1985]

...........in San Francisco. Not only are police there in abundance, they are shifting the route so nobody knows where it is and very few can view it.

Why not just lock up a stadium and run the torch around there in the empty stadium?


The whole thing has turned into a joke now...

if the Chinese goverment hasn't done anything "wrong" why they care so much about the boycott? or why they censor many interent pages? or why foreigners can't go to Tibet?

Probably a whole boycott would only screw the athletes but I'm all for boycotting the opening and closing ceremonies

[jarrambide]

I get your point Valve, and appreciate your concerns. I just think that many things are exaggerated, that's all. I will make no further comments on the topic, and hope that peace and harmony can be restored to the region. I hope that I have not offended anyone on the forum with my comments, but, I too, have my opinions, and am not afraid to share them, but, upsetting other forum members is not on my agenda, I hope you understand that. Best wishes to you all, and I hope that the Olympics go ahead with no more drama's. I wish the country you support at this sporting event the best of luck, and hope that you enjoy watching the games. Over and out.
Coincidentally you decide not to keep posting just in case you could upset members when someone asked you if you could access an internet page?

I don´t support boycotting the torch, (I understand they are doing it because it will get them on first page, unlike protesting in front of Chines Embassies and Consulates, but don´t support them), but trying to say China is a white dove and how allegations are exaggerations or lyes when you can´t even read those allegations in China is kind of funny.

[Valve Bounce]

Coincidentally you decide not to keep posting just in case you could upset members when someone asked you if you could access an internet page?

I don´t support boycotting the torch, (I understand they are doing it because it will get them on first page, unlike protesting in front of Chines Embassies and Consulates, but don´t support them), but trying to say China is a white dove and how allegations are exaggerations or lyes when you can´t even read those allegations in China is kind of funny.

I think the guy is simply trying to make a quiet exit from a subject that, because of his position, would have been better started by someone else.

I guess when camelopard asked him to access a certain Amnesty International web page, it was probably then that he realised he was being heavily censored on subjects regarding Tibet.

That's the impression I got.

[maxu05]

[quote="Valve Bounce"]I know our friend in China won't be able to access this link from The Age :http://www.theage.com.au/news/national/torch-thugs-from-elite-tibet-force/2008/04/09/1207420486483.html

Thanks for the link valve, and yes, I read it with no problems. So much for that Myth. Still doubtful ? The article was credited to Mary-Ann Toy and Misha Schubert.

[maxu05]

I am being quiet as to not cause trouble in the forum. I still have my opinions, and also respect others opinions as well. If most of the members here disagree with my opinions, hey, I can dig that. Perhaps I may see a different image of the place since I am always working with great people, and cute kids, OK, I can see your points. I am not here to make enemies, just speak what I feel.

[Magnus]

For that you have my sympathies maxu05(or was it mr Jan Yeo ;) ). You have at least changed my thoughts abt the chinese government a little bit.

[leopard]

Who did put you in trouble Maxu, was it Magnus? just tell me :) ;)

[Daniel]

I get your point Valve, and appreciate your concerns. I just think that many things are exaggerated, that's all. I will make no further comments on the topic, and hope that peace and harmony can be restored to the region.

Funny. You say that but never anything about China pulling out of Tibet or no longer threatening Taiwan. It's all about harmony on China's terms and that isn't harmony.

[ShiftingGears]

I know our friend in China won't be able to access this link from The Age :http://www.theage.com.au/news/national/torch-thugs-from-elite-tibet-force/2008/04/09/1207420486483.html

Thanks for the link valve, and yes, I read it with no problems. So much for that Myth. Still doubtful ? The article was credited to Mary-Ann Toy and Misha Schubert.

But you do concede that they heavily censor what you see in the media, yes?

[Valve Bounce]

I know our friend in China won't be able to access this link from The Age :http://www.theage.com.au/news/national/torch-thugs-from-elite-tibet-force/2008/04/09/1207420486483.html

Thanks for the link valve, and yes, I read it with no problems. So much for that Myth. Still doubtful ? The article was credited to Mary-Ann Toy and Misha Schubert.

Well, if you can save two paragraphs of the link camelopard
gave you: http://asiapacific.amnesty.org/apro/aproweb.nsf/pages/appeals_china_UA27706

and then paste it back in a post, then we will believe that you are not censored.

[Garry Walker]

I hope that I have not offended anyone on the forum with my comments, but, I too, have my opinions, and am not afraid to share them
If you have, then that is not your problem, but the problem is in those people being of very weak substance.

This is the problem when communistic regimes are not treated as they deserve to and that is equalling their crimes with crimes committed by Nazis. Soviet Union, communistic China and North Korea are in no way better with their history than Nazis.

The real embarrassment was giving China the olympics, the current actions will not change one thing. I wonder where the protestors were back then, still being breastfed maybe?

[Daniel]

If you have, then that is not your problem, but the problem is in those people being of very weak substance.

Very true :up:

I disagree strongly with what he's saying but I strongly agree with his right to say it and at no point have I thought "Wow he's so insulting"

So keep on saying what you're saying and the same way in which you're saying it. You're wrong :p But still well within your rights to be wrong :P

[ShiftingGears]

I wonder where the protestors were back then, still being breastfed maybe?

What kind of a statement is this?!

The massive protests have really been due to the '08 Olympics putting China under the microscope and amplifying the coverage of their blatant crackdown on Tibet. I'm not sure how you associate the current situation to the protestors being breastfed.

[Garry Walker]

Very true :up:

I disagree strongly with what he's saying but I strongly agree with his right to say it and at no point have I thought "Wow he's so insulting"

So keep on saying what you're saying and the same way in which you're saying it. You're wrong :p But still well within your rights to be wrong :P

I disagree with what you say but I will defend to death your right to say it!


What kind of a statement is this?!

The massive protests have really been due to the '08 Olympics putting China under the microscope and amplifying the coverage of their blatant crackdown on Tibet. I'm not sure how you associate the current situation to the protestors being breastfed.

The problems in Tibet were well-known to everyone before the olympics were given to China. Other problems in China were also well-known before that. Why were there no protests then? Why didn`t the activists fight against China being given the olympics? You don`t deal with such matter after it has been decided, but before (if you wish to be successful).

My breastfeeding remark was to show that people who are now protesting were doing nothing to avoid the problem in the first place, all the protests now will achieve very little.

[maxu05]

I disagree with what you say but I will defend to death your right to say it!



The problems in Tibet were well-known to everyone before the olympics were given to China. Other problems in China were also well-known before that. Why were there no protests then? Why didn`t the activists fight against China being given the olympics? You don`t deal with such matter after it has been decided, but before (if you wish to be successful).

My breastfeeding remark was to show that people who are now protesting were doing nothing to avoid the problem in the first place, all the protests now will achieve very little.

Partly what I have tried to say. Why was there no protests until now ?

[Daniel]

Partly what I have tried to say. Why was there no protests until now ?
My guess is maximum impact. I expected protests but nothing like this. It was excellent and it got a lot of news coverage for an issue which doesn't get too much coverage.

[maxu05]

Funny. You say that but never anything about China pulling out of Tibet or no longer threatening Taiwan. It's all about harmony on China's terms and that isn't harmony.

Taiwan is a different issue. Most Taiwanese that I have met in China, are quite happy to be part of China. The US doesn't like it though.

[BDunnell]

I am finding it hard to understand why some seem to have so little grasp of news values, and the fact that there have been protests for a long time, just not such high-profile ones.

[maxu05]

My guess is maximum impact. I expected protests but nothing like this. It was excellent and it got a lot of news coverage for an issue which doesn't get too much coverage.

It was excellent ? That's not a very good attitude IMO.

[BDunnell]

It was excellent ? That's not a very good attitude IMO.

I think protests are a sign of a healthy democracy. It's good that people still have a bit of fire about them, rather than blandly toeing the official line or sitting at home moaning about things.

[Garry Walker]

I am finding it hard to understand why some seem to have so little grasp of news values, and the fact that there have been protests for a long time, just not such high-profile ones.

No one cares about small protests, that is the problem. To get mass media and people behind you, you have to make something that is big. Now is too late to change anything.


They should have made their point before the Bejing was chosen.

[ShiftingGears]

The problems in Tibet were well-known to everyone before the olympics were given to China.
I wouldn't say the Tibet problem was that well known to expect mass protests over it. It often takes some catalyst event for people to protest and get their message across. And the major event brings more media coverage, which reveals more about the country and the cycle continues.


Other problems in China were also well-known before that. Why were there no protests then? Why didn`t the activists fight against China being given the olympics? You don`t deal with such matter after it has been decided, but before (if you wish to be successful).

I am sure there were protests, but as mentioned, media coverage plays a big part.


My breastfeeding remark was to show that people who are now protesting were doing nothing to avoid the problem in the first place,
Some would've, some wouldn'tve. Don't want to generalise now ;)

all the protests now will achieve very little.

Sadly this is true.

[Daniel]

It was excellent ? That's not a very good attitude IMO.

It was excellent. It was funny. If you can't appreciate how hilarious the footage in particular of a Tianamen square completely cleared of the public hosting the flame lighting ceremony is then you've had a sense of humour malfunction. The Olympics is supposed to be all about the public. There wasn't any public involvement. It's hilariously un-Olympics like in it's stodgeyness.

I'm not bothered if you don't like my attitude. I don't like your blaise attitude to China just marching into Tibet and taking control as well as all of their posturing with Taiwan. My attitude is merely disrespectful towards a country which deserves no respect.


Taiwan is a different issue. Most Taiwanese that I have met in China, are quite happy to be part of China. The US doesn't like it though.

Most Taiwanese who don't want to be part of China probably wouldn't want to step on Chinese soil.....

[BDunnell]

I wouldn't say the Tibet problem was that well known to expect mass protests over it. It often takes some catalyst event for people to protest and get their message across. And the major event brings more media coverage, which reveals more about the country and the cycle continues.

Exactly. :up:

There is nothing surprising or bad about this.

[BDunnell]

It was excellent. It was funny. If you can't appreciate how hilarious the footage in particular of a Tianamen square completely cleared of the public hosting the flame lighting ceremony is then you've had a sense of humour malfunction. The Olympics is supposed to be all about the public. There wasn't any public involvement. It's hilariously un-Olympics like in it's stodgeyness.

No doubt this is the fault of the infidel protesting types who would otherwise have spoilt it for all the little children, rather than the inhumane, undemocratic 'People's' regime that cannot tolerate dissent.

[Daniel]

Just saw a great quote on Youtube :cheese:


Free Tibet ,Mongols invade and re-conquer china.

[Daniel]

No doubt this is the fault of the infidel protesting types who would otherwise have spoilt it for all the little children, rather than the inhumane, undemocratic 'People's' regime that cannot tolerate dissent.

Of course. Think of the children! I personally think the Chinese should go with the angle that the protesters are pedo's and Diana haters. That'd be one way to get the British public onside at least :rotflmao:

[Valve Bounce]

It was excellent ? That's not a very good attitude IMO.


I have to agree with Daniel here. In fact, the protests in San Francisco were so successful that the torch relay today started by going into a warehouse, then being diverted to a lonely road which has car dealerships and motels.

There have been other protests : Dawn Fraser has refused to go to Beijing. In my view, THAT is really big.

The Chinese thugs used to run with the torch is a symbol of the brutal bullying regime that is China still.

And I am glad that Kevin Rudd has told the elite students in Beijing Uni about the human rights problems in Tibet.

What some people here don't understand is that this is the perfect opportunity for the World to focus the human rights issues in Tibet - when the World's press is there to show the protests world wide.

[Mikeall]

Grabbing the Olympic torch won't stop whatever is going on. I'm not sure who's right or who's wrong and its one of many international conflict.

[Azumanga Davo]

"Free Tibet, or we send more rabbits in. Or Bigpond commercials. Whatever's worse..."

[Daniel]

http://www.dailytech.com/China+Quietly+Unblocks+EnglishLanguage+Websites/article11413.htm

perhaps this might have something to do with Maxu05 being able to read some of the stuff posted on here. Wonder how long that will last after the Olympics :)

[Valve Bounce]

http://www.dailytech.com/China+Quietly+Unblocks+EnglishLanguage+Websites/article11413.htm

perhaps this might have something to do with Maxu05 being able to read some of the stuff posted on here. Wonder how long that will last after the Olympics :)

If you read that article through, it says that "Sensitive topics, including recent Tibet unrest and the Tiananmen Square incident, continue to be blocked, even when queried on unblocked websites like English-language Wikipedia and BBC.co.uk."

Now, if Maxu is able to cut and paste the two paragraphs we had mentioned in camelopards earlier post relating to the Amnesty International article, then we will know how blissful he is.

[Valve Bounce]

I know our friend in China won't be able to access this link from The Age :http://www.theage.com.au/news/national/torch-thugs-from-elite-tibet-force/2008/04/09/1207420486483.html

Thanks for the link valve, and yes, I read it with no problems. So much for that Myth. Still doubtful ? The article was credited to Mary-Ann Toy and Misha Schubert.

Interesting!!
Now I find out that even Kevin Rudd's speech (in putonghua) at Beijing Uni to the students was censored with all the criticism of human rights in Tibet edited out in China.

Now you might find me skeptical of your reply above, but telling me who wrote the articles means nothing. If you want to convince me, cut and paste the paragraphs about what happened in Tibet from camelopards link to Amnesty International as we have all asked you several times.

[Valve Bounce]

Still nothing ! :(
I guess he got edited out.

[Valve Bounce]

Cat got his tongue :eek:

[Daniel]

Valve. Give him time to reply. It's only fair. It is a weekend you know.

[Valve Bounce]

Maybe the Chinese threatened him with the Paddy field march!! :eek:

[jarrambide]

Nothing yet?

[Valve Bounce]

Nothing yet?

Dead silence.

[Daniel]

Dead silence.
Silence is golden doncha know?

[Valve Bounce]

Yeah!! it's the rabbits. They built the wall to keep the rabbits out.

[maxu05]

Well, Daniel was correct about the weekend. There are so many students at the internet cafe's, that my internet connection runs at snail pace during most weekends. I even missd the Motogp online as a result. As for pasting something that I think is Bollocks, forget that. As I have said before, I have no trouble getting onto any website, except during the weekends, due to online traffic. China bashing seems to be a pastime for some people these days, why not give the USA a pasting for killing so many innocent civilians in Iraq ? Human rights, ha, tell that to the detainees in Guantanamo Bay, that were tortured and stripped naked in front of the camera's. Check your own back yard, and give me the proof that your country is squeaky clean before you start pointing the finger.

[Daniel]

Well, Daniel was correct about the weekend. There are so many students at the internet cafe's, that my internet connection runs at snail pace during most weekends. I even missd the Motogp online as a result. As for pasting something that I think is Bollocks, forget that. As I have said before, I have no trouble getting onto any website, except during the weekends, due to online traffic. China bashing seems to be a pastime for some people these days, why not give the USA a pasting for killing so many innocent civilians in Iraq ? Human rights, ha, tell that to the detainees in Guantanamo Bay, that were tortured and stripped naked in front of the camera's. Check your own back yard, and give me the proof that your country is squeaky clean before you start pointing the finger.

Thing is there is a lot of pressure on the US because of what they do and a lot of bad will directed their way. You only need to see an Iraq thread with Eki, Fousto and Anthonyvop in it to see what sort of opinions people have about the US. I merely think China deserves to be treated similarly and more strongly. It's one thing to treat the citizens of another country badly but it's a whole different story when you treat your own citizens that bad in my view. You only need to look at Apartheid to see how much of a dim view the world takes of the mistreatment of a large group of people by their own government.

If the US could they'd be out of Iraq tomorrow and would want to leave peace behind. China doesn't want to be out of tibet. That's the difference.

[Valve Bounce]

As for pasting something that I think is Bollocks, forget that. .

Yeah!! I guess that Amnesty International's postings on their website is Bollocks, and of course, you were able to read it all and decide that it was bollocks.

I think you are full of BS!! We couldn't care if it was bollocks or not - we are challenging you to prove that it is not censored by China. Can't do that, can you!!

.............and this is not about the US; this is about Tibet!! or did you miss that??

[maxu05]

Yeah right. I am sure other countries let people burn cars in the street and loot etc. They are just protesting, let them be, ha. I have said before that China is not perfect, but, they should not let protests get out of hand, like happened in Tibet. What are the Chinese supposed to do, send in Oprah ? I'm full of BS ? OK then, whatever you say.

[Daniel]

Yeah right. I am sure other countries let people burn cars in the street and loot etc. They are just protesting, let them be, ha. I have said before that China is not perfect, but, they should not let protests get out of hand, like happened in Tibet. What are the Chinese supposed to do, send in Oprah ? I'm full of BS ? OK then, whatever you say.
What would you do if the US came into China and pretended it had always been theirs? :laugh: Invite the local US General in for a cup of tea and some biscuits? :laugh:

[maxu05]

US wouldn't have the balls to try it. They only take counties that suit their interests for oil, so they can drive their chair squashing butts to the 7/11 in their 7 litre v8 pickup trucks :D

[Valve Bounce]

Yeah right. I am sure other countries let people burn cars in the street and loot etc. They are just protesting, let them be, ha. I have said before that China is not perfect, but, they should not let protests get out of hand, like happened in Tibet. What are the Chinese supposed to do, send in Oprah ? I'm full of BS ? OK then, whatever you say.

yep!! you are!! you are still dodging the point of this whole discussion that the topic of human rights in Tibet is censored by China.

Care to prove me wrong?

You can run around in circles all you like, but there is no place to hide in this forum.

[janneppi]

Can't say anything about the origin of the photo, but my goodness I got a good chuckle out of it. :)
http://kalleboo.mirror.waffleimages.com/files/60/60efef487954d00a6d0353f13f44471e4fc90839.jpg

[Daniel]

US wouldn't have the balls to try it. They only take counties that suit their interests for oil, so they can drive their chair squashing butts to the 7/11 in their 7 litre v8 pickup trucks :D

What does that have to do with it? If your country was under occupation what would you be doing?

[Daniel]

Can't say anything about the origin of the photo, but my goodness I got a good chuckle out of it. :)
http://kalleboo.mirror.waffleimages.com/files/60/60efef487954d00a6d0353f13f44471e4fc90839.jpg
Link is dead

Edit.... works when you refresh a few times. That is quite funny :D

[maxu05]

I remember the topic of the thread being about protesters disrupting the torch relay. Even the Daeli Lama (spelling) has stated that he does not want Tibet to split from China, and also stated that he will step down if the protests do not stop. Also, on this thread, it was stated that the Chinese security surrounding the Olympic flame were thugs. The security details job is to protect the flame, and the torch bearer, they are just doing their job, just like when any foreign leader visits a country, they bring their own security, I guess they are thugs too. Don't tell me I am full of BS, when you are clearly a dumpster full.

[jarrambide]

I love the "I can do it but I don´t need to prove anything to you" argument, specially when it comes from the originator from the thread, my guess is that he will find a way (eventually) to post it, he has been working on it for 5 days now, lets hope he doesn´t get in trouble.

[jarrambide]

I love the "I can do it but I don´t need to prove anything to you" argument, specially when it comes from the originator from the thread, my guess is that he will find a way (eventually) to post it, he has been working on it for 5 days now, lets hope he doesn´t get in trouble.

[Daniel]

I remember the topic of the thread being about protesters disrupting the torch relay. Even the Daeli Lama (spelling) has stated that he does not want Tibet to split from China, and also stated that he will step down if the protests do not stop. Also, on this thread, it was stated that the Chinese security surrounding the Olympic flame were thugs. The security details job is to protect the flame, and the torch bearer, they are just doing their job, just like when any foreign leader visits a country, they bring their own security, I guess they are thugs too. Don't tell me I am full of BS, when you are clearly a dumpster full.
When did the Dalai Lama say he didn't want Tibet to split from China? :laugh:

This is classic.

[Valve Bounce]

I remember the topic of the thread being about protesters disrupting the torch relay. Even the Daeli Lama (spelling) has stated that he does not want Tibet to split from China, and also stated that he will step down if the protests do not stop. Also, on this thread, it was stated that the Chinese security surrounding the Olympic flame were thugs. The security details job is to protect the flame, and the torch bearer, they are just doing their job, just like when any foreign leader visits a country, they bring their own security, I guess they are thugs too. Don't tell me I am full of BS, when you are clearly a dumpster full.

Typical Chinese stoolie stuff. But you still havn't proven to me that you can access the Amnesty International website that details how the Chinese killed Tibetans.

You can stall all you like, but you are sounding more and more like one of the guys from my office in HK., a Mr Chan who extolled the wonders of China, and wouldn't let up until the massacre at Tienamen Square. Then he shut up.

Lets face it, you can't back you own claims that China's human rights abuse in Tibet is not censored in China, can you!!
You can run around in circles, but there is no place to hide in this forum.

[Azumanga Davo]

I remember the topic of the thread being about protesters disrupting the torch relay. Even the Daeli Lama (spelling) has stated that he does not want Tibet to split from China, and also stated that he will step down if the protests do not stop. Also, on this thread, it was stated that the Chinese security surrounding the Olympic flame were thugs. The security details job is to protect the flame, and the torch bearer, they are just doing their job, just like when any foreign leader visits a country, they bring their own security, I guess they are thugs too. Don't tell me I am full of BS, when you are clearly a dumpster full.

I'm fairly sure Dalai Lama Spelling did not say that...

[Daniel]

Typical Chinese stoolie stuff. But you still havn't proven to me that you can access the Amnesty International website that details how the Chinese killed Tibetans.

You can stall all you like, but you are sounding more and more like one of the guys from my office in HK., a Mr Chan who extolled the wonders of China, and wouldn't let up until the massacre at Tienamen Square. Then he shut up.

Lets face it, you can't back you own claims that China's human rights abuse in Tibet is not censored in China, can you!!
You can run around in circles, but there is no place to hide in this forum.

Hehe :) Caroline was watching CCTV the other day (a Chinese station on Sky) and they were going on about how they'd liberated the Tibetans from the Dalai Lama and how he was some kind of tyrant. Classic stuff :laugh: They also said that there weren't problems with the torch relay in places where there clearly were.

[Valve Bounce]

I remember that the official line after the Tienamen Square massacre was that nobody was killed.

[Azumanga Davo]

I remember that the official line after the Tienamen Square massacre was that nobody was killed.

Well they weren't.

They were shot at and driven over with tanks. But that sort of thing has never killed anyone...

Pass me the wool, guys. Just want to put some over Maxu's eyes...

[maxu05]

Ok then, Here is a link for you. I HAVE been to the Amnesty International sites, US,UK and Asia. Here is a link for you.
http://mwcnews.net/content/view/21671/99999999/

[jarrambide]

Ok then, Here is a link for you. I HAVE been to the Amnesty International sites, US,UK and Asia. Here is a link for you.
http://mwcnews.net/content/view/21671/99999999/

Look, I can cut and paste the first 2 paragraphs of your link.

"The US, UK, France, other Western nations and the Western mainstream media have been castigating China over asserted human rights abuses in Tibet.

Because of the absence of outside reporters it is difficult to assess what is actually happening in Tibet. Thus according to a March 30 News.com report: “Exiled Tibetan leaders have put the death toll from the Chinese crackdown at between 135 and 140 Tibetans, with another 1000 people injured and many detained”."


Can you do the same with the other link?

[maxu05]

Why do people keep on bringing up Tienamen Square ? What does that have to do with today ? Do I bring up the horrible things that Germany or Japan has done in the past ? Or the USA enslaving Nigro's, or using the Chinese to build their railways, or the British treatment of Indians in the past, well, guess I have now, and the list goes on. I will say it again. I do not condone some of China's past actions, and perhaps they can be quite forceful when push comes to shove, but, some of the media reports are blown out of proportion IMO. That is all I was trying to say in the first place. China is not the evil place that the media states. I have had enough of this thread, and don't think I will be posting again. You say that we get a one sided view of things here, but I think it may be you guys that get the one sided view. I see all the news that you people see, but, I am here, you are not.

[Daniel]

The thing is that massacre isn't ancient history and nothing has changed in China

[jarrambide]

Why do people keep on bringing up Tienamen Square ? What does that have to do with today ? Do I bring up the horrible things that Germany or Japan has done in the past ? Or the USA enslaving Nigro's, or using the Chinese to build their railways, or the British treatment of Indians in the past, well, guess I have now, and the list goes on. I will say it again. I do not condone some of China's past actions, and perhaps they can be quite forceful when push comes to shove, but, some of the media reports are blown out of proportion IMO. That is all I was trying to say in the first place. China is not the evil place that the media states. I have had enough of this thread, and don't think I will be posting again. You say that we get a one sided view of things here, but I think it may be you guys that get the one sided view. I see all the news that you people see, but, I am here, you are not.

Translation, "Even tough I have try and try and try, I am unable to access the link and therefore incapable of pasting the 2 paragraphs, I should have left the discussion days ago but instead I tried to save face by using smoke mirrors, I am finally giving up and attempting to save face one more time."

Either that or you are really stubborn not wanting to humor us and pasting those 2 paragraphs.

[Daniel]

Nice one.

[Valve Bounce]

Blessed are they who run around with their head in the sand, for they shall remain in the same spot.

[Valve Bounce]

The Chinese Thugs, euphemistically called : " Chinese Sacred Flame Protection Unit" will be barred from the Olympic Torch Relay, despite the efforts of our erstwhile Vice President of the Olympic Committee none other than Kevin Gosper, who has been rebuked by our PM for even suggesting it :http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,25197,23547274-5014197,00.html


Furthermore, if any of these Chines Thugs so much as laid a hand on anybody during the Canberra leg of the relay, the will be ARRESTEDhttp://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,25197,23548178-5014197,00.html

[Schultz]

The thing is that massacre isn't ancient history and nothing has changed in China

See this is the kind of comment that is unfounded and just as one-sided as the Chinese media reports.

Noone disagrees that there are human rights abuses happening it tibet, and perhaps in other part of China aswell. Will that is probable.

The point maxu has been making, and the pioint that i think everyone needs to take a bit more seriously, is that China HAS come along way since Mao, and that is important. You cannot expect a country with a new regime to democratise in 60 years. It is not only unreasonable, but probably historically unprecedented. Think of other regimes like in Indonesia, where democracy has only been possible after decades of dictatorial rule. Now China is 6 times the population of China with just as diverse a culture, if not moreso, and we are expecting them to adapt to the norms of western liberal-democratic culture?

Eventually it will happen. It is not possible to sustain a capitalist economy with the values of free market and such, without eventually moving to a more democratic form of government. The middle class in China will develop, and history suggests the people will be more demanding for the freedoms that we enjoy here in western countries. And that these demands will be impossible for the leadership to ignore. A stronger middle class also ensures that a country is more stable, as there is less need to fight over wealth, but instead, they have the means to compete for wealth in the free market, which China is slowly opening up to.

The fact is, at this point in time, for China to take the foot off the pedal, and allow Tibet the independence they want, China will have more and more issues with the Taiwanese and the Uighurs who are fighting their own battle for autonomy. The first thing China needs right now is a stable economy and society. That can't happen if you have successionists uprising every which way. I also happen to think that alot of Chinese see this, and they see that things are improving. They fear what instability will do to the country and are willing to wait it out for more democratic freedoms.

[Valve Bounce]

See this is the kind of comment that is unfounded and just as one-sided as the Chinese media reports.

Noone disagrees that there are human rights abuses happening it tibet, and perhaps in other part of China aswell. Will that is probable.

.

I guess all the very strong disagreements started with the title of this thread, and as the Torch relay progressed, we learn that protestors are accosted and manhandled by Chinese Thugs "protecting" the Olympic flame. Then the discussion ventured onto censorship and human rights.

I am willing to bet that we will never see democracy in China, not in my lifetime, that's for sure. Any strong effort to change the style of government will be met with lethal force, as seen in the Tienamen Square massacre. I mean, their leadership is paranoid, as can be seen by ther persecution of those in the Falun Gong movement, which is totally peaceful.

Add to this the fact that China is governed by a whole bunch of people who have voted themselves in, and who are stuffing cash into their pockets and investing said cash in their piggy banks of Hong Kong and Macau, as well as other places overseas.

Going back to the Olympic Games, I think that China made the big mistake of running the torch relay all over the place instead of lighting the torch in Athens and then transporting it to China and running it all over China, the host country which was the traditional way. Having a bunch of paramilitary goons to run with the torch relay makes me suspect that China had anticipated demonstrations and were ready to put them down the Chinese way. What they failed to forsee was that public sympathy (with the exceptions of overseas Chinese students) will be with the demonstrators to such an extent.

Maybe people outside of China, or who have lived in Hong Kong for a number of years can see the bigger picture through an uncensored media than those closseted in China.

[maxu05]

Well said Schultz. That's what I mean. I am always saying that China has made many mistakes, and I am sure they will make many more. I don't agree with many things that happen here, but, there are so many one eyed people out there ready to put the place down. Sure, (as I have said before), it will take some time for big changes to happen, but it is slowly changing for the better, and it would change at a faster rate without all the over-criticism.
About pasting the two lines that were requested, I had been to the Amnesty site, and read many articles. Since then, I have not been able to access it again, so I must concede defeat on that one. I am still able to read any news service from anywhere in the world, and I am up to date on all the latest news on the issue, from all angles/countries etc. As for pasting an article, I have no idea how to do it. I have tried to cut and paste, but must be doing something wrong. I used to be able to post pictures here, but ever since the new format arrived, I have had no luck posting pictures, so I assume that I am doing something wrong there.
As for Chinese Thugs, I think that is going overboard. When I was in the Australian Army (8 years) we had to march in Melbourne, and there were protesters along the way. We carried the Australian flag that day, and we were told, that if any protesters tried to attack the flag, rifle butt them. So we were Australian Thugs I suppose ?

[Camelopard]

As for Chinese Thugs, I think that is going overboard.

Well Seb Coe was one of the first to call them 'thugs', so I'm quite prepared to take his word on that issue.

http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2008/04/08/2210816.htm

"Sebastian Coe, the London 2012 Olympics chief, has been overheard by a British broadcaster describing several Chinese officials guarding the Olympic flame as it passed through London as "thugs"."

[Valve Bounce]

As for Chinese Thugs, I think that is going overboard. When I was in the Australian Army (8 years) we had to march in Melbourne, and there were protesters along the way. We carried the Australian flag that day, and we were told, that if any protesters tried to attack the flag, rifle butt them. So we were Australian Thugs I suppose ?

Try marching in the Australian uniform in Beijing, and if anyone attacked our flag you go and rifle butt them there. See how the Chinese would react.

As for your post above, I fully agree that China has come a long way since Mao died. But the repression is still there, and Falun Gong is not permitted, with those practicing it dealt with lethal force. I mean, how many peaceful people are jailed there still?
And the killings in Tibet were real.

As for thugs, if you don't like that description, take it up with Lord Seb Coe. It is to our PM's credit that these thugs, or goons, will not be permitted to touch anyone in Australia. They will be arrested if they manhandle anyone, as per the links I posted above, which you may, or may not be able to read.

[Valve Bounce]

It has come to light here that the Chinese Embassy is funding Chinese students to be bussed to Canberra to take part in demonstrations against the pro Tibetan demonstrators. Around 3000 of these pro China students/workers will be bussed to Canberra.

Now, tell me this : What would happen if any foreign power were to fund their nationals to travel to any part of China to take part in a demonstration?

I have been thinking seriously about this all day: I don't give a shyte how far China has progressed since the dark days of Mao - what they are doing today is still unacceptable

I'm sure Maxu will come up with something glib!! well maybe not!!

[Daniel]

See this is the kind of comment that is unfounded and just as one-sided as the Chinese media reports.

Noone disagrees that there are human rights abuses happening it tibet, and perhaps in other part of China aswell. Will that is probable.

The point maxu has been making, and the pioint that i think everyone needs to take a bit more seriously, is that China HAS come along way since Mao, and that is important. You cannot expect a country with a new regime to democratise in 60 years. It is not only unreasonable, but probably historically unprecedented. Think of other regimes like in Indonesia, where democracy has only been possible after decades of dictatorial rule. Now China is 6 times the population of China with just as diverse a culture, if not moreso, and we are expecting them to adapt to the norms of western liberal-democratic culture?

Eventually it will happen. It is not possible to sustain a capitalist economy with the values of free market and such, without eventually moving to a more democratic form of government. The middle class in China will develop, and history suggests the people will be more demanding for the freedoms that we enjoy here in western countries. And that these demands will be impossible for the leadership to ignore. A stronger middle class also ensures that a country is more stable, as there is less need to fight over wealth, but instead, they have the means to compete for wealth in the free market, which China is slowly opening up to.

The fact is, at this point in time, for China to take the foot off the pedal, and allow Tibet the independence they want, China will have more and more issues with the Taiwanese and the Uighurs who are fighting their own battle for autonomy. The first thing China needs right now is a stable economy and society. That can't happen if you have successionists uprising every which way. I also happen to think that alot of Chinese see this, and they see that things are improving. They fear what instability will do to the country and are willing to wait it out for more democratic freedoms.

The thing is that even though they've come a bit closer to being what they should be what the country still does is totally and utterly unacceptable.

It's all a front. China pretends to make progress but in reality there is very little progress. They claim to be a democracy but people have no freedom of speak and freedom to access the information they want to access. The media is heavily controlled and because China is a big player in the world markets no one wants to piss them off.

Valve :) I hope China's rent-a-crowd get beaten like the Tibetans get beaten when they protest.

[maxu05]

It has come to light here that the Chinese Embassy is funding Chinese students to be bussed to Canberra to take part in demonstrations against the pro Tibetan demonstrators. Around 3000 of these pro China students/workers will be bussed to Canberra.

Now, tell me this : What would happen if any foreign power were to fund their nationals to travel to any part of China to take part in a demonstration?

I have been thinking seriously about this all day: I don't give a shyte how far China has progressed since the dark days of Mao - what they are doing today is still unacceptable

I'm sure Maxu will come up with something glib!! well maybe not!!

OK, back your claims up with some proof. Sounds like a load of rot to me. If there are Chinese students there, they are most likely pis.ed off with all the China bashing just as I am.

[maxu05]

Good to see CNN making an apology to the Chinese people, even if it was a half assed attempt.

[Lousada]

About pasting the two lines that were requested, I had been to the Amnesty site, and read many articles. Since then, I have not been able to access it again, so I must concede defeat on that one. I am still able to read any news service from anywhere in the world, and I am up to date on all the latest news on the issue, from all angles/countries etc.

Where do you get your news from?

Google?
http://www.wired.com/politics/law/news/2004/09/65089

MSN?
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/technology/4088702.stm

CBC/Radio Canada?
http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20080405/tc_afp/canadachinaoly2008censorship_080405013351

Yahoo? Nah, probably not
http://www.wired.com/politics/onlinerights/news/2006/06/71166

[maxu05]

I get my news mainly from Yahoo Australia, Nine MSN Australia, CNN USA, BBC etc. I check Yahoo Australia and Nine MSN every day.

[Valve Bounce]

OK, back your claims up with some proof. Sounds like a load of rot to me. If there are Chinese students there, they are most likely pis.ed off with all the China bashing just as I am.

It was on the TV and they also interviewed the student leader involved. The Melbourne AGE also has an article on this. Check it out for yourself.
How I can present an interview on the telly to prove it to you is beyond me, but if you are not being censored, then it should be on the telly in blissful China or you could check out the newspapers yourself. Here's the link: http://www.theage.com.au/news/national/students-plan-mass-torch-defence/2008/04/15/1208025189581.html

[Daniel]

OK, back your claims up with some proof. Sounds like a load of rot to me. If there are Chinese students there, they are most likely pis.ed off with all the China bashing just as I am.

I wonder if they'll be as ill informed and blind to the truth as you :)

[Valve Bounce]

[quote="maxu05"]I get my news mainly from Yahoo Australia, Nine MSN Australia, CNN USA, BBC etc. I check Yahoo Australia and Nine MSN every day.[/QUOTE

Well if all that news you are getting is not censored, then you appear to be rather ill informed. Just because you are getting news from these sources doesn't mean that part of the news has not been blocked out. Ever think of that? :rolleyes:
Probably not!!

[maxu05]

Great to see. Gosper has always been a tool, so I won't dispute that. But good to see the Chinese community uniting to protest. They say they will protest peacefully, so I can't see a problem with that.

[maxu05]

You must be kidding. You are clutching at straws now. As far as being ill informed. I just don't believe half of what is reported on the news. I read all the news reports from many countries, but there are always two sides to a story, but the Chinese side is always dismissed as being made up.

[Daniel]

Chinese side is always dismissed as being made up.

Because a great deal of the time it is or a lot of detail has been left out. IE when they make up stuff about the Dalai Lama being some opressive King type figure who was motivated by money. It's made up. Deal with it.

[Valve Bounce]

This is copied from the Age article linked above:"Zhang Rongan said the Chinese embassy in Canberra "is organising buses, food and places to stay" for protesters."


Satisfied, Maxu??

[Valve Bounce]

You must be kidding. You are clutching at straws now. As far as being ill informed. I just don't believe half of what is reported on the news. I read all the news reports from many countries, but there are always two sides to a story, but the Chinese side is always dismissed as being made up.

First you aks us to provide the proof, right!!

Then when we do, you say you don't believe it. Maybe you should try reading the news articles without your red tinted glasses.

[Valve Bounce]

Because a great deal of the time it is or a lot of detail has been left out. IE when they make up stuff about the Dalai Lama being some opressive King type figure who was motivated by money. It's made up. Deal with it.

You know, Daniel. These buggers used to hold court for nuns, blindfolded them, then have so called witnesses tell all sorts of stories about them, and then spit on them.

Then you have these idealistic types get a teaching job in China, believe all their propaganda, and then spout all this bs about how the western press is telling lies about China.

I guess you just can't win. :(

[maxu05]

Firstly, why is a newspaper article proof ? Secondly, so what if the the embassy is providing buses, food and shelter, what does that prove ?

[Daniel]

You know, Daniel. These buggers used to hold court for nuns, blindfolded them, then have so called witnesses tell all sorts of stories about them, and then spit on them.

Then you have these idealistic types get a teaching job in China, believe all their propaganda, and then spout all this bs about how the western press is telling lies about China.

I guess you just can't win. :(
Firstly I'd just like to say **** the UK and **** Australia.

I have the freedom to walk out in the street and say that and not go to jail for it.

Personally I think just by nature of where you and I live (free countries) we're already winners compared to Maxu05 :)

[maxu05]

Red tinted glasses ? Take your blinkers off I think.

[Daniel]

Red tinted glasses ? Take your blinkers off I think.
I'm free to see what I want. You're not. That's the difference.

If I want to walk down the local high street and denounce the government I can if I want to. You don't have that freedom so stop pretending that China is a democracy and that there is freedom.

As someone who is Australian I am extremely saddened that someone who had so much REAL freedom in Australia thinks that China's brand of freedum is anything more than just a poxy little show.

[maxu05]

Ha ha ha. There are so many things that I can do in China, that you can not do in the UK or Australia. We don't have tax on beer, we don't pay the government half our pay in taxes if we do some overtime, we don't have speed radar hiding behind every tree on the highway, we don't have camera's watching our every movement in the city. I could go on and on.

[Daniel]

Ha ha ha. There are so many things that I can do in China, that you can not do in the UK or Australia. We don't have tax on beer, we don't pay the government half our pay in taxes if we do some overtime, we don't have speed radar hiding behind every tree on the highway, we don't have camera's watching our every movement in the city. I could go on and on.

Wow. More money to spend on cheap beer, less speed camera and less human rights! Where do I sign up Chairman Maxu :rolleyes:

[Valve Bounce]

Firstly, why is a newspaper article proof ? Secondly, so what if the the embassy is providing buses, food and shelter, what does that prove ?

Well, you did ask for proof. Secondly, if a foreign power was organising demonstrations in China for thousands of people, what would have been the reaction in China, Maxu? Ever thought of that??

NAH!! you only teach English!!

[maxu05]

OK, what rights am I deprived of, apart from bagging the government, which I don't think I would do anyway, as I have nothing to complain about in that regard.

[Valve Bounce]

Ha ha ha. There are so many things that I can do in China, that you can not do in the UK or Australia. We don't have tax on beer, we don't pay the government half our pay in taxes if we do some overtime, we don't have speed radar hiding behind every tree on the highway, we don't have camera's watching our every movement in the city. I could go on and on.

Let's see you go to Tienamen Square and start up some Falun Gong exercises. :eek:
You'll find out that not only do they have cameras watching you, they will have goons come racing out and beat the shyte out of you!!

[Daniel]

OK, what rights am I deprived of, apart from bagging the government, which I don't think I would do anyway, as I have nothing to complain about in that regard.
The right to criticise the government openly is a democratic right....... The right to practice the religion of your choice openly and publicly? There's a start.

[Valve Bounce]

...........don't forget the Falun Gong exercises.

[maxu05]

When has China ever said it was fully democratic ?

[Daniel]

...........don't forget the Falun Gong exercises.
Argh! Cult! Cult! Cult! I think we should talk about Falun Gong lots in this thread so the site gets blocked in China :p We love Falun Gong! Falun Gong is great and China is evil :)

[maxu05]

I worked with an American at my school, and he went to church here every Sunday with many of his Chinese friends. I never saw him get beaten up.

[Daniel]

I worked with an American at my school, and he went to church here every Sunday with many of his Chinese friends. I never saw him get beaten up.
Religion of your choice. Go to Tianeman Square and start harping on about how great Falun Gong is and see how long you last......

[ShiftingGears]

I could go on and on.

Please, do. Nothing you mentioned makes up for the gross violation of human rights and liberty in China.

[maxu05]

I worked with an American at my school, and he went to church here every Sunday with many of his Chinese friends. I never saw him get beaten up.

[Valve Bounce]

I worked with an American at my school, and he went to church here every Sunday with many of his Chinese friends. I never saw him get beaten up.
I find it very hard to believe that an American would go to church on Sunday to do Falun Gong!! Give us another story Maxu!!

[SOD]

some people are very upset that Cghina will host a fabulous olympics. the same people dont have the skills to compete economically with the Chinese .

[Daniel]

some people are very upset that Cghina will host a fabulous olympics. the same people dont have the skills to compete economically with the Chinese .

Does anyone really care? What's more important? People's freedom? Be they Iraqi, Afghani or Tibetan?

[SOD]

freedumb & freedom, its the same difference between hamburgers & steak.

[schmenke]

Falun Gong is not a religion, not a cult, not a meditation technique, etc. It's a scam conceived to extort cash from the gullible, primarily the elderly.
I have Chinese friends whose parents have lost thousands of $'s to this scam.

[Eki]

Falun Gong is not a religion, not a cult, not a meditation technique, etc. It's a scam conceived to extort cash from the gullible, primarily the elderly.
I have Chinese friends whose parents have lost thousands of $'s to this scam.
Good example of the fact that people in the so called "Western Countries" don't know enough of the reality of other countries. Another example is Iraq where Chalabi was first considered to be a hero for Iraqi democracy but turned out to be just a crook trying to make profit.

[Daniel]

Falun Gong is not a religion, not a cult, not a meditation technique, etc. It's a scam conceived to extort cash from the gullible, primarily the elderly.
I have Chinese friends whose parents have lost thousands of $'s to this scam.
I stand corrected :)

[Tomi]

Falun Gong is not a religion, not a cult, not a meditation technique, etc. It's a scam conceived to extort cash from the gullible, primarily the elderly.
I have Chinese friends whose parents have lost thousands of $'s to this scam.

a chineese version of mormonism or scientology maybe.

[jarrambide]

a chineese version of mormonism or scientology maybe.
Yeah, but if someone believes Mormonism, Scientology, being a Jehova witness or praying to Joe Pesci is the way, then by your favorite deity they should do it, you can try to explain to them why you think is a scam or a waste of time and or money, but being free is a great gift, having the right to choose your beliefs is great.

I personally believe Christianity, Islam, Buddhism, etc, etc, etc is a waste of time, but if I was the ruler of a nation I would never dare banning them, what do I know? perhaps there is a God, perhaps not, that is not the point, the point is you should be free to do whatever you want, even if it is spending all your money buying Star Wars memorabilia or smoking yourself to death or spending your life watching old Ballykissangel episodes, if someone makes those choices for you regardless of how well intended is a sin against human nature.

[Tomi]

Yeah, but if someone believes Mormonism, Scientology, being a Jehova witness or praying to Joe Pesci is the way, then why your favorite deity they should do it, you can try to explain to them why you think is a scam or a waste of time and or money, but being free is a great gift, having the right to choose your beliefs is great.

I personally believe Christianity, Islam, Buddhism, etc, etc, etc is a waste of time, but if I was the ruler of a nation I would never dare banning them, what do I know? perhaps there is a God, perhaps not, that is not the point, the point is you should be free to do whatever you want, even if it is spending all your money buying Star Wars memorabilia or smoking yourself to death or spending your life watching old Ballykissangel episodes, if someone makes those choices for you regardless of how well intended is a sin against human nature.

True, people can belive in what they want, its not my business as long they dont waste my time by ringing my doorbell or stop me on the street and start telling fairy tales, one thing im very happy about that here no religious freaks have political power.

[jarrambide]

True, people can belive in what they want, its not my business as long they dont waste my time by ringing my doorbell or stop me on the street and start telling fairy tales, one thing im very happy about that here no religious freaks have political power.

Yeah, I hate that, but I also hate it when they ring my doorbell or stop me on the street to talk about whales, how cows, chickens and hogs have a bad life or how to save the rain forest, it is not about being religious, it is about being rude, luckily I have the right to tell them to get lost, it is about having choices.

Believing we are completely free is naive, but we have it good if you compare most of the Western countries with places like China, even if it means the chance of a religious freak with power, free speech and freedom of choice was made precisely to protect the ideas we dislike.

[Tomi]

Believing we are completely free is naive, but we have it good if you compare most of the Western countries with places like China, even if it means the chance of a religious freak with power, free speech and freedom of choice was made precisely to protect the ideas we dislike.

Yes its true most of the western countries are, but ultra religious freaks are always fundamentalists and those usually try to redouse freedom, of that is many samples for instance the womens right to control their own body (abortion), also maybe try to effect what is teached in school's in biology classes and other things too.

[Valve Bounce]

Yeah, I hate that, but I also hate it when they ring my doorbell or stop me on the street to talk about whales, how cows, chickens and hogs have a bad life or how to save the rain forest, it is not about being religious, it is about being rude, luckily I have the right to tell them to get lost, it is about having choices.

Believing we are completely free is naive, but we have it good if you compare most of the Western countries with places like China, even if it means the chance of a religious freak with power, free speech and freedom of choice was made precisely to protect the ideas we dislike.

Yeah!! I use a very effective technique: I just stare them in the eye and tell them in a soft voice that I am not interested, then I quietly shut the door. They don't come back!!

[Valve Bounce]

The torch relay, set to take place in India will be running into a firstorm of protests : http://www.smh.com.au/news/world/ring-of-steel-to-protect-olympic-torch-in-delhi/2008/04/16/1208025280902.html
It seems several notable celebrated sportsmen like Sachin and also the Indian soccer captain, have pulled out.

In Australia, three of the Chinese thugs will be allowed to accompany the torch relay on foot, following some sort of government back flip.

The backlash from all this bad publicity will not please China (or Maxu for that matter).

Here's more links to news of the Asian leg of the Torch Relay:http://newsbreak.com.au/world

[Valve Bounce]

For the benefit of Maxu, I post this link: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/7336639.stm

[Valve Bounce]

This is getting serious - here's the view and reaction from the Chinese: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/7347821.stm

[jarrambide]

Yes its true most of the western countries are, but ultra religious freaks are always fundamentalists and those usually try to redouse freedom, of that is many samples for instance the womens right to control their own body (abortion), also maybe try to effect what is teached in school's in biology classes and other things too.

I believe that freedom is not a right, it is a privilege, you don´t get it for free, you have to fight for it and most importantly, once you have it, you have to fight to keep it.

Having said that, people that oppose abortion have the right to to try and convince everyone else that we should legislate what women can and can´t do, I have the right to speak on behalf of the right to choose (even tough I morally oppose abortion, I believe the freedom to choose is more important, it is not my body, I don´t get to choose, but I have the right to explain why I think in many cases is morally wrong, and they have the right to agree and disagree and then to decide what to do on their own bodies), it is a fight that never ends, that is why is a privilege, if you take it for granted you lose it.

[Camelopard]

Is the flame on it's way to Zimbabwe?

Reports "......that Chinese soldiers had been seen in the country."

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2008/apr/18/china.armstrade

I'm not suprised that China supports the Mugabe regime, 'birds of a feather stick together........'?

That's bound to ruffle a few other feathers! :D

"The Mugabe regime continues to deny the right of the people of Zimbabwe to choose their leaders. To supply arms to it at time when opposition activists are being intimidated and attacked, not only sends the wrong signal, but will harm the reputation of China"

Hhhhmmm not sure they have much of a 'reputation' left to harm........ in particular when you add in their aid and support to that bastion of Free Speech and Human Rights in the form of Sudan.

[leopard]

It's rather difficult lately when being positioned against great power like that opposition activist. :s nore: :)

[Dave B]

Hats off to the dock workers who refused to handle this cargo. It must be heartwarming for Mugabe to have friends in China who buy him such nice presents :s

[Azumanga Davo]

Probably only asked for a Malibu Barbie for Christmas too, so he's done well...

[paulcrazy]

Well I am not sure if this link had been posted

http://www.anti-cnn.com/

anyway, go there and have a look at it, it's in english, and you people should have a wider view for what happened in Tibet in March.

[Daniel]

Well I am not sure if this link had been posted

http://www.anti-cnn.com/

anyway, go there and have a look at it, it's in english, and you people should have a wider view for what happened in Tibet in March.
Thanks :laugh:

Now I know that the Chinese actually liberated Tibet. What a joke. Why don't you stop spreading lies and go and oppress someone, or go and cheaply and poorly copy the goods which someone put blood, sweat and tears into designing or whatever the hell it is you do there......

[jarrambide]

Well I am not sure if this link had been posted

http://www.anti-cnn.com/

anyway, go there and have a look at it, it's in english, and you people should have a wider view for what happened in Tibet in March.
We do have a wider view, we can watch and read stories about it, we have access to stories that defend both points, we have access to the Amnesty International web page and have access to the anti-cnn web page, we have access to CCTV and their pro Chinese government information, we have access to pro Chinese government web pages and access to pro Tibet web page.

But most importantly, we have the freedom to believe one of the 2 opposing view point or even not to believe any of them, we are not saying we are right or wrong, we may be wrong, but it is not for lack of a wider view, "We People" have access to that wider view, but since we have the freedom to believe whatever we want, some of us are deciding not to believe the Chinese government version, some of us are deciding to believe them, they are just not in this thread (except for a couple of Chinese residents like yourself).

So, as you can see, as imperfect and flaw as it is, this democracy thing has some great stuff, like having access to every point of view and the right to decide what to think, you should try it sometime. ;)

[BDunnell]

To be fair, a friend who lived in China for a year (but doesn't any more) says that standards of living have improved in Tibet, as it was hardly an idyllic paradise, but doesn't feel that this excuses China's actions there and on its own soil. I think this is a fair assessment.

[BDunnell]

We do have a wider view, we can watch and read stories about it, we have access to stories that defend both points, we have access to the Amnesty International web page and have access to the anti-cnn web page, we have access to CCTV and their pro Chinese government information, we have access to pro Chinese government web pages and access to pro Tibet web page.

But most importantly, we have the freedom to believe one of the 2 opposing view point or even not to believe any of them, we are not saying we are right or wrong, we may be wrong, but it is not for lack of a wider view, "We People" have access to that wider view, but since we have the freedom to believe whatever we want, some of us are deciding not to believe the Chinese government version, some of us are deciding to believe them, they are just not in this thread (except for a couple of Chinese residents like yourself).

So, as you can see, as imperfect and flaw as it is, this democracy thing has some great stuff, like having access to every point of view and the right to decide what to think, you should try it sometime. ;)

:up:

Beautifully put.

[Daniel]

To be fair, a friend who lived in China for a year (but doesn't any more) says that standards of living have improved in Tibet, as it was hardly an idyllic paradise, but doesn't feel that this excuses China's actions there and on its own soil. I think this is a fair assessment.

But standards of living have also improved in the UK as well as a lot of other countries. It was always going to happen in the 2nd half of the 20th century.....

[BDunnell]

But standards of living have also improved in the UK as well as a lot of other countries. It was always going to happen in the 2nd half of the 20th century.....

Indeed, though Tibet had its own particular problems. The sad thing is that while it may apparently have advanced in some ways, this has been done without regard for basic rights, when it ought to have been possible to manage the two things simultaneously.

[Daniel]

Indeed, though Tibet had its own particular problems. The sad thing is that while it may apparently have advanced in some ways, this has been done without regard for basic rights, when it ought to have been possible to manage the two things simultaneously.

The thing is regardless of whether Tibet has had all these great advancements it's not for China to force them upon Tibet. Tibet was it's own country with it's own way of doing things and that wasn't respected. You would have thought after a couple of World Wars the countries of the world would have gone away from the "we're powerful and we want your land and we're willing to fight for it" model.

In my view any problems with being backwards were Tibet's own problems and no one else should have been involved.

[jso1985]

To be fair, a friend who lived in China for a year (but doesn't any more) says that standards of living have improved in Tibet, as it was hardly an idyllic paradise, but doesn't feel that this excuses China's actions there and on its own soil. I think this is a fair assessment.

Surely one thing is for sure, Tibetans deserve to have their human rights respected and have free choice of what kind of country they want, but living under the regime of a guy who was chosen by a few other guys who thought he was the "one" isn't much democratic either...

I'm not saying what China is doing with all the human rights abuse is ok. but they have brought some improvements to the life of the Tibetans

[BDunnell]

The thing is regardless of whether Tibet has had all these great advancements it's not for China to force them upon Tibet. Tibet was it's own country with it's own way of doing things and that wasn't respected. You would have thought after a couple of World Wars the countries of the world would have gone away from the "we're powerful and we want your land and we're willing to fight for it" model.

In my view any problems with being backwards were Tibet's own problems and no one else should have been involved.

I agree.

[Daniel]

Surely one thing is for sure, Tibetans deserve to have their human rights respected and have free choice of what kind of country they want, but living under the regime of a guy who was chosen by a few other guys who thought he was the "one" isn't much democratic either...

I'm not saying what China is doing with all the human rights abuse is ok. but they have brought some improvements to the life of the Tibetans

But that's the way Tibet did it's thing. Western style democracy isn't for every country.

[jso1985]

it's the way the Tibetans monks did it, noone asked the tibetan people what they wanted

[Daniel]

it's the way the Tibetans monks did it, noone asked the tibetan people what they wanted

I've highlighted two words in your post to make my point.

[jso1985]

not all the population in Tibet are monks...

[Daniel]

not all the population in Tibet are monks...
Not all the people in China are people who look uncomfortably stiff.

[jso1985]

I think we're going nowehere in the discussion...

I'm highly agaisnt all the abuses the Chinese goverment does to their own people and tibetans.
But at the same time I don't feel a theocratic goverment would be the best for Tibet.

[Daniel]

I think we're going nowehere in the discussion...

I'm highly agaisnt all the abuses the Chinese goverment does to their own people and tibetans.
But at the same time I don't feel a theocratic goverment would be the best for Tibet.
I agree with what you're saying :)

But at the end of the day it's up to the people of Tibet to choose. They didn't get a choice. I believe every country should have the right to choose how they want to live their life. The San in Southern Africa choose to live a nomadic life and live off the land. It's not how I'd do things but it's their choice and I respect that and defend their right to live how they wish. Where was the consultation with the Tibetan people when they came under Chinese rule?

[jarrambide]

I think we're going nowehere in the discussion...

I'm highly agaisnt all the abuses the Chinese goverment does to their own people and tibetans.
But at the same time I don't feel a theocratic goverment would be the best for Tibet.

Exactly, it is about having choices, the fact Tibetans didn´t choose a theocratic government is no excuse for China to impose a government on them (and claiming they saved them), that is wrong, completely wrong, but the fact that China is doing that to the Tibetans that is no excuse to reinstate a theocracy.

Tibetans should decide, if they want to be part of China, then they should be part of China, if they want a theocracy, then they should have the Dalai Lama or whoever they choose as their spiritual and government head, if they want a democracy they should have it, it is all about them and choices, they don´t have them.

[Valve Bounce]

Well I am not sure if this link had been posted

http://www.anti-cnn.com/

anyway, go there and have a look at it, it's in english, and you people should have a wider view for what happened in Tibet in March.

It is interesting that the French speech of the two people are not in sync with their lip movements at all, and that the so called English is in fact a superimposed script on the screen.

I think even a clumsy Chinese student in Hong Kong would be able to do something a little better than that - I give it, at best, two out of ten because the English spelling appears to be good.

It is also very interesting that the guy who posted this has buggered off and decided not to take part in any further discussion.

Under the circumstances, I would rather give credence to the Amnesty International accounts than this amateurish attempt at propaganda.

[Valve Bounce]

Here is today's article in the Features seection of The Australian: http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,25197,23570507-28737,00.html

Just in case the article is censored if anyone accessed it on the internet, I would like to cut and paste a few paragraphs:

THE official website of the Beijing Olympic torch relay bears no resemblance to the harsh reality. There are no pictures of protesters, police scuffles and blue-and-white tracksuit-clad Chinese "thugs" monstering demonstrators. There is no mention that the torch relay has become a lightning rod for protest groups with an axe to grind against China, that it has become an embarrassment the International Olympic Committee never wanted in the first place. IOC president Jacques Rogge describes the situation as a crisis.

Instead, the heavily censored Matrix-style Chinese website bursts with happy, waving, torchbearers jogging alongside cheering crowds. Well-wishers cry with joy. Supporters are encouraged to share their personal Olympic torch photos with the world and maybe even win a Light the Passion prize. The website headlines are heavily spin-doctored. "Olympic flame crosses London amid snow," is the heading for the London debacle. "Sacred flame gets a French kiss." "Crowds gather to show support in San Francisco." Pakistan was a "fiery success", with no mention that the relay took place behind locked gates as a sparse, invitation-only crowd watched 60 runners going around and around Islamabad's Jinnah Stadium.


I guess when we have a free press to read here vs a heavily censored one in China filled with porpaganda, it would take very little for me to decide which one is true and which is full of BS. Because, apart from anything else, we did have the directly filmed newsreel to view on our television sets here.

Against this back ground, and here risking the ire of Maxu, I quote from the Chinese press at the time that "Nobody was killed in Tienamen Square" during the demonstrations in the late 80's.

Not difficult for me to decide who not to believe.

[leopard]

Maybe we shall see Richard Gere got married as soon as Tibet declare their independence. :)

Hoping this could be the best choice for Tibetan, while they can also learn from Timor Leste that independence may lead into internal chaos after deciding to get separated from their former landlady.

[paulcrazy]

It is interesting that the French speech of the two people are not in sync with their lip movements at all, and that the so called English is in fact a superimposed script on the screen.

I think even a clumsy Chinese student in Hong Kong would be able to do something a little better than that - I give it, at best, two out of ten because the English spelling appears to be good.

It is also very interesting that the guy who posted this has buggered off and decided not to take part in any further discussion.

Under the circumstances, I would rather give credence to the Amnesty International accounts than this amateurish attempt at propaganda.

I posted this link is to give some more info on this Tibet affair, I am not trying to prove which side is right, which side is wrong. If you believe that those are just fake videos and pictures made by some chinese people trying to lie to the world, it's fine and I always respect your opinion.

I speak chinese in my country and so do most chinese people, I think it's fair enough for us to speak or write in "two out of ten" english and I hope you understand that people should not be called " a clumsy Chinese student in Hong Kong" for not speaking or writing "ten out of ten" english.

[Valve Bounce]

I posted this link is to give some more info on this Tibet affair, I am not trying to prove which side is right, which side is wrong. If you believe that those are just fake videos and pictures made by some chinese people trying to lie to the world, it's fine and I always respect your opinion.

I speak chinese in my country and so do most chinese people, I think it's fair enough for us to speak or write in "two out of ten" english and I hope you understand that people should not be called " a clumsy Chinese student in Hong Kong" for not speaking or writing "ten out of ten" english.

You got that wrong - you get ten out of ten for the English; you get two out of ten for dubbing of the French interview where the lips do not synchronise with the speech.
If you really want to know all about the demonstrations in the Olympic Torch Relay, why not try the Official Beijing Olympics website? You'll find that all is peace and Harmony. :rolleyes:

If you want to do weird interviews, you can start with this one: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EuL5uSEvgoU

[maxu05]

[quote="Valve Bounce"]

Who has buggered off ? As I have told you before, It is sometimes difficult for me to log in during weekends, as the internet runs at a snail pace due to the amount of traffic here. You will most likely tell everyone on the forum that I have been censored or something, but hey, you know more about China than me it seems. I must know more about your hometown, since I don't live there. Ah, that's how it works. Your such a clever monkey :D

[maxu05]

You should apply for a reporters job with "The Sun" in the UK. Same standard of reporting it seems.

[paulcrazy]

You got that wrong - you get ten out of ten for the English; you get two out of ten for dubbing of the French interview where the lips do not synchronise with the speech.
If you really want to know all about the demonstrations in the Olympic Torch Relay, why not try the Official Beijing Olympics website? You'll find that all is peace and Harmony. :rolleyes:

If you want to do weird interviews, you can start with this one: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EuL5uSEvgoU


I didn't make the frenck interview, I just post the link here and if you want to give points to someone, you got the wrong person. If you don't like the link, you can report it to Admin, ask he/she to remove the link or even all my posts.

However when you said I got that wrong, then you should make an explanation on what the wording of " a clumsy Chinese student in Hong Kong' refering to. Giving me ten out of ten on my english or asking me to go to other websites doesn't cover your words you posted.

[maxu05]

I didn't make the frenck interview, I just post the link here and if you want to give points to someone, you got the wrong person. If you don't like the link, you can report it to Admin, ask he/she to remove the link or even all my posts.

However when you said I got that wrong, then you should make an explanation on what the wording of " a clumsy Chinese student in Hong Kong' refering to. Giving me ten out of ten on my english or asking me to go to other websites doesn't cover your words you posted.

I understand what you are saying paulcrazy. Many native English speakers assume that if you cannot speak English 100% perfect that you are not so smart. Try talking to native English speakers in your own tongue and they look stupid. Don't worry, I come across this every day. I understand your post, as do others, but some will try to undermine you to their advantage when making points. Keep practicing your English, and don't worry about what others say about your spelling, grammar etc.

[Daniel]

You should apply for a reporters job with "The Sun" in the UK. Same standard of reporting it seems.

Pot, kettle, black.

[Azumanga Davo]

You should apply for a reporters job with "The Sun" in the UK. Same standard of reporting it seems.

Bet there's no such thing as a Page 3 girl over in good ol' China.

The Sun may have some dodgy and blatant lies in it's papers, but it has a right to do so, up to a point. Any paper in China has to follow the official Government line otherwise it's a hasty "retirement" for the journalist in question, or even worse.

Why is it you have so much faith in the local rags that have to heavily restrict their news, to the literally hundreds of other sources you could turn to elsewhere that contradict everything that China puts out as news?

Gotcha!

[maxu05]

Bet there's no such thing as a Page 3 girl over in good ol' China.

The Sun may have some dodgy and blatant lies in it's papers, but it has a right to do so, up to a point. Any paper in China has to follow the official Government line otherwise it's a hasty "retirement" for the journalist in question, or even worse.

Why is it you have so much faith in the local rags that have to heavily restrict their news, to the literally hundreds of other sources you could turn to elsewhere that contradict everything that China puts out as news?

Gotcha!

Gotcha ? Who said that I read the local rags ? I have never read a local newspaper here since I have been here. Wow, you got me good, I will be scared to leave my house now, thanks RICHARD :dork:

[Azumanga Davo]

Gotcha ? Who said that I read the local rags ? I have never read a local newspaper here since I have been here. Wow, you got me good, I will be scared to leave my house now, thanks RICHARD :dork:

Gotcha! is the name of an inappropriate headline from the 80s. Obviously pop culture is lost to those in the Land of the Dragon.

So no local papers and a daily dose of lies online because things get blocked. I'm off to get my plane ticket now for Beijing...

[maxu05]

So what am I missing in the news ? I have said before, that I read all the online news that you read. I talk to my mother on SKYPE, and I often ask her to check out some of the news reports and she tells me that the reports that I have seen, are exactly the same as those reported in Australia. I suppose you will tell me that my mother has been replaced by an imposter, spreading propaganda.

[Daniel]

So what am I missing in the news ? I have said before, that I read all the online news that you read. I talk to my mother on SKYPE, and I often ask her to check out some of the news reports and she tells me that the reports that I have seen, are exactly the same as those reported in Australia. I suppose you will tell me that my mother has been replaced by an imposter, spreading propaganda.
I for one think it's time to lay off maxu05 in regards to censorship. He says he can get everything and everyone else says he can't. No one's going to yield. If he thinks that he can get all the news I can then good for him. He's wrong but there's only so long you can argue like children over something for.

I think we should actually discuss the issue at hand which is Tibet :)

[maxu05]

OK, I agree Daniel. Regarding censorship. I had already coceded defeat in regard to the Amnesty Int debate, as I had only been able to access it on one occasion. As for censorship of the news on all the other sites,(Yahoo, Nine MSN, CNN, BBC etc), it is total bollocks, as I have checked them all out, and compared notes with my mother in Perth, my brother in Sydney and my sister in Canberra. I see the same things as my family in Oz, apart from Amnesty, though, I will check that out, and see if I can get it again.

[maxu05]

By the way, I am not "Buggering Off" but, I have an early start tomorrow morning, so I am going to sleep. I will log out now, No, the authorities haven't kidnapped me due to my comments, or seized all my assets etc, I am just tired. Have a good night all.

[Daniel]

By the way, I am not "Buggering Off" but, I have an early start tomorrow morning, so I am going to sleep. I will log out now, No, the authorities haven't kidnapped me due to my comments, or seized all my assets etc, I am just tired. Have a good night all.
I bet Chairman Mao made you say that! :p

Only joking :)

[BDunnell]

So what am I missing in the news ? I have said before, that I read all the online news that you read. I talk to my mother on SKYPE, and I often ask her to check out some of the news reports and she tells me that the reports that I have seen, are exactly the same as those reported in Australia. I suppose you will tell me that my mother has been replaced by an imposter, spreading propaganda.

But where, then, have the reports of this form of censorship come from? Many eminent journalists have been to China and experienced it for themselves. Surely they can't all be lying?

[airshifter]

But where, then, have the reports of this form of censorship come from? Many eminent journalists have been to China and experienced it for themselves. Surely they can't all be lying?


Might I remind everyone on the forum that in the not so distant past, reporters that travelled between the US, Soviet Union, East and West Germany, and some other countries, were frequenty censored on a large scale. They were at times held without cause, and at times accused of espionage. The same types of things took place with civilian and military aircraft, ships, and other forms of transport as well.

That doesn't mean that there was a total lack of communications and freedom to do so within those countries. It means that paranoia often fueled by opposing countries allowed those things to happen.


You can pick up naitonal print news in different countries and often see completely different articles about the same exact news story. Yet we dismiss that as bias of the writers or publication, not the scrutiny of the nation involved.




I personally think that it's crazy for anyone not currently living in China to think we possibly know more about what takes place there than people currently living in China. And I think it's disgraceful to use something such as the Olympics as a means to protest what most of us probably don't completely understand to begin with.