How long will BMW stay in title contention?

[ShiftingGears]

Leading the constructors, with their drivers 2nd and 4th in the WDC. I can't see them maintaining their position ahead of McLaren, though.

[jso1985]

unless they start to win races, they will hardly win the WCC.
While Heidfeld could win the WDC if the Ferrari and McLaren guys keep doing juvenile mistakes every 3 or 4 races...

[Rollo]

'05, '06, '07 and now '08 is the fourth year of consistent improvement. I'm willing to suggest that they might break through for a win in 2008 and if trends continue might start to mix things up a bit on 2009.

This isn't some half-assed effort like Ford or Honda here - this is stayed and controlled pressure.

[leopard]

The car is strong, no doubt about it. They only need an external factor like magical sensation from driver that has ability to implement the clever strategy.

Until they realize their mistake about neglecting two titles holder in lesser car, I see such half-baked commitment will not produce position more than challenging. ;)

[woody2goody]

I think they will be in with a chance for a while, depending on their developments between now and Barcelona.

They have the perfect combination of drivers, because they both suit different styles of racing. Kubica likes to go a bit lighter and is the type who will get pole positions, whereas Heidfeld puts more fuel in the tank, drives consistently quickly and comes good later in the race.

Strangely enough, they may have the best chance of the constructors championship as they could keep getting 10 points-plus at every Grand Prix.

If Robert had got a better start yesterday, and stayed ahead of Massa for a while, any one of the top four could have won the race. The Ferraris were never more than 10 seconds in front of the BMWs at any point.

[Valve Bounce]

Things can change quite rapidly in F1. Look at Renault winning two WDC's in a row then starting to fall off the pace last year, and this year even with Fernando back in the team, they are not competitive at all. The same can apply to either McLaren or Ferrari; and the converse could apply to BMW where they can improve. We are not talking about a dramatic improvement - only fractions of a second per lap will elevate them to be able to win races and the championship. And I see, in the team, two drivers who can do it.

[leopard]

yeah although it also otherwise occurred.

The car improvement can't be decided during pre-season testing. BMW spent 2 years or more in order to be like we are seeing today. FA spent too much time in uncertainty before deciding to take back the seat at Renault. During his leave for McLaren, Renault practically left behind on keeping the car development, they may need to start everything from their nadir point.

[wmcot]

As long as Ferrari and McLaren keep trading up-and-down races, BMW has a shot at the WCC. Reminds me of 1982 when Keke Rosberg won the WDC with only 1 race win (I just finished reading the book 1982 - fascinating year!)

[ioan]

Let's put it this way:

BMW had they driver qualify in the top 10 for 21 consecutive races!!!
None of the other top teams managed that, they don't even come close!!!

Consistency is what BMW and Heidfeld are about, they are also consistently improving.

I see them beating the McLaren on the WCC standing this season, they got the car and the drivers to do that!

[ten-tenths]

Things can change quite rapidly in F1. Look at Renault winning two WDC's in a row then starting to fall off the pace last year, and this year even with Fernando back in the team, they are not competitive at all. The same can apply to either McLaren or Ferrari; and the converse could apply to BMW where they can improve. We are not talking about a dramatic improvement - only fractions of a second per lap will elevate them to be able to win races and the championship. And I see, in the team, two drivers who can do it.

interesting in that during the last broadcast the announcers were saying how alot of the ex-renault engineers are now employed by bmw.

[F1boat]

I think that we will know after Barcelona. If BMW continue to be competitive with Ferrari and McLaren, I think that they will fight till the end.

[Azumanga Davo]

I reckon they are at their prime and can carry on for a while yet.

[AndyRAC]

unless they start to win races, they will hardly win the WCC.
While Heidfeld could win the WDC if the Ferrari and McLaren guys keep doing juvenile mistakes every 3 or 4 races...

This is something very possible, although I'd have thought you'd need a race win or 2. Both drivers are picking up points every race. While Kubica has the pace, Heidfeld is very canny, and his racecraft is extremely good. For the good of the sport, the longer they stay in contention the better.

[Mihai]

As long as Ferrari have Massa, BMW will be in contention for the WCC. ;)

[Garry Walker]

Let's put it this way:

BMW had they driver qualify in the top 10 for 21 consecutive races!!!
None of the other top teams managed that, they don't even come close!!!

Consistency is what BMW and Heidfeld are about, they are also consistently improving.


Kubica has been better than NH in all 3 races so far.

I see BMW as the team with the biggest amount of improvement left in the car now, they have really been a positive surprise.

[Valve Bounce]

As long as Ferrari have Massa, BMW will be in contention for the WCC. ;)

This is rather confusing, seeing that Massa just won a GP and Kimi came second. If they keep that up, Ferrari will be very difficult to beat, especially if Lewis Hamilton also starts getting back to the front of the grid and race..

[ioan]

Kubica has been better than NH in all 3 races so far.

I see BMW as the team with the biggest amount of improvement left in the car now, they have really been a positive surprise.

Looking at the points standings I wouldn't say your point (no pun intended) has any support.

[ioan]

This is rather confusing, seeing that Massa just won a GP and Kimi came second.

You know, some are not always up to date. ;)

[wedge]

I think Monaco, Hungary, Canada, Valencia and Singapore will be a good indication whether they can get a win or not.

[Robinho]

i think it depends on how they fare on returning to Europe - if they are able to keep up the pressure or even narrow the gap to Ferrari/fight off McLaren then they'll be up there all season.

However, if Ferrari and McLaren both improve a lot they might leave BMW behind a bit. having seen last season i'm inclined to belive that won't happen,as BMW were consistent all year, so must have been able to continue along a steep development curve.

i'd like to think they might even make a bit of a jump and challenge Ferarri (and hopefuly a resurgent McLaren) for wins at some point this year. if that happens the title race will be thrown wide open and the consistent scorers will be in the best positions

[woody2goody]

Kubica has been better than NH in all 3 races so far.

I don't think so, considering Nick was 2nd in Australia and Robert didn't do very much in the race.

And considering Nick started 6th yesterday, he was only a couple of seconds behind Robert, and did the 2nd fastest lap, faster than Robert's. Both men did really well. Robert started off well and Nick finished well. And they raced all the way to the end making it more uncomfortable for Ferrari than they would have liked.

I'd say one to Nick (Australia), one to Robert (Malaysia) and one draw (Bahrain). I still think Heidfeld will win before Kubica but Kubica will get more pole positions.

[Mihai]

You know, some are not always up to date. ;)

What a clever line, you must be so proud of yourself now... :rolleyes:

I was refering to Massa's notorious unreliability, as shown in the first couple of races. Get an IQ boost, buddy! :down:

[ioan]

What a clever line, you must be so proud of yourself now... :rolleyes:

I was refering to Massa's notorious unreliability, as shown in the first couple of races. Get an IQ boost, buddy! :down:

A few good manners lessons could be of use to some it seems.
Being rude doesn't pay, here in the civilized world.

[Mihai]

I thought they teach you respect there, you pathetic expat.

[maxu05]

I think perhaps this is a stepping stone for the BMW team. I don't think they will expect these results every race, but, it's a step in the right direction for sure.

[Firstgear]

Ferrari will take the WCC this year, but I think BMW may come in second. With McLaren having restrictions on development of certain parts of the car, BMW may become the solid second team later in the season.

[Tazio]

Ferrari will take the WCC this year, but I think BMW may come in second. With McLaren having restrictions on development of certain parts of the car, BMW may become the solid second team later in the season.
It is beinning to look like Ferrari are a cut above the field!
As to your second point I think it's too close to call
But the girls insure me they will do everything in their power to keep the team motivated :p :

[tintop]

Looking at race pace (fastest race laps) BMW have really bridged the gap over the past year. Their average fastest lap position was appx. 5th overall in 2007 and their fastest lap speeds were roughly 2.0 kph or 1% off the fastest laps on average last year. Their best fast lap position was 3rd, which they achieved 2 times (Can, Mon).

In 2008, BMW are 2nd in terms of fastest laps including one fastest overall and their WORST ranking has been 3rd fastest. The gap in terms of kph is down by 2/3 to just 0.6 or .3% off the fastest lap on average.

They will probably not beat the red machines for a chamionship, but a maiden win or P2 for the season is not out of the question. RD and MS might have to eat their words.

[jens]

For a long time there has been a lot of scepticism about BMW and hesitations that they are not ready to fight at the top and will fall back, but BMW is constantly proving doubters wrong. ;)

Pace-wise BMW is quite close to Ferrari. Kubica drove just a few seconds behind Räikkönen during the whole race and I think the gap was never over 10 seconds. Therefore it certainly can't be ruled out that BMW will compete for the title till the end. Both Ferrari (less-aero circuits) and McLaren (aero circuits) seem to have their weaknesses, while BMW seems to be the most consistent performer on every circuit. I guess that among the three title contenders McLaren is in the most critical situation. They seem to struggle on circuits with a lot of fast corners and while they seem to be capable of fighting for top results on street circuits (Aus, probably Mon, Can, Sin, Val too) and maybe on a fast circuit like Monza as last year, then being a distant third on the majority of the circuits is certainly alarming. They must make a leap forward during the next three weeks.

Heidfeld is maybe the most consistent driver on the grid. I even can't remember, when was the last time, when he made a costly mistake and lost a good result for the team. And even on his 'lesser days' he is quick enough to finish just a few seconds behind his team-mate. Kubica on the other hand seems to be one of the best qualifiers. BMW has a wonderful, well-balanced and quite even driver pairing. If the car is quick enough, those guys should definetely not be underestimated.

[stevie_gerrard]

Prepare yourselves for BMW domination from 2010 onwards :D :p :

They have made a great start, and provided they win a couple of races this season, will be 3rd guaranteed and maybe pushing the top 2 a bit to perform. 2009 will be the first time we see BMW shine and win consistently, and become a major front runner, and then from 2010, there will be no stopping them with Kubica and Heidfeld still going :p :

[Tazio]

Prepare yourselves for BMW domination from 2010 onwards :D :p :

They have made a great start, and provided they win a couple of races this season, will be 3rd guaranteed and maybe pushing the top 2 a bit to perform. 2009 will be the first time we see BMW shine and win consistently, and become a major front runner, and then from 2010, there will be no stopping them with Kubica and Heidfeld still going :p :


The new aero regs are going to bennefit:
BMW, the Power Plant
Renault, Fred's Craft, and Renault Power

[ioan]

The new aero regs are going to bennefit:
BMW, the Power Plant
Renault, Fred's Craft, and Renault Power

I don't know why do you believe that Renault F1 engines are better than Toyota, Honda or let's say Ferrari?!

[jens]

Actually I'm a bit sceptical that 2009 aero regs might obstruct BMW's rise. Their current F1 car is the most innovative in terms of aerodynamics and with winglets ban they may lose their advantage.

However, BMW was expected to struggle with electronics ban too, but didn't happen so and a top team should be able to cope with all kinds of rules and regulations.

[Tazio]

Actually I'm a bit sceptical that 2009 aero regs might obstruct BMW's rise. Their current F1 car is the most innovative in terms of aerodynamics and with winglets ban they may lose their advantage.

However, BMW was expected to struggle with electronics ban too, but didn't happen so and a top team should be able to cope with all kinds of rules and regulations.In the words of Alex Zaknardi "BMW Power Man"
Seriously one can never be sure of teams strengths, and abilities, year to year
But BMW and a powerful engine is a good bet.

[Tazio]

I don't know why do you believe that Renault F1 engines are better than Toyota, Honda or let's say Ferrari?!
I don't necessarily. But I think they are every bit as good. More reliable than
all the ones you listed, and maybe able to make the most efficient use of kinetic energy.
Plus I was implying allegorically that Fred would add synergistically to its strength!

[ioan]

I don't necessarily. But I think they are every bit as good. More reliable than
all the ones you listed, and maybe able to make the most efficient use of kinetic energy.
Plus I was implying allegorically that Fred would add synergistically to its strength!

Sounds like PR talk to me! :p :

[Tazio]

Sounds like PR talk to me! :p :
Because I answered your question in three words? :confused:

[ioan]

Because I answered your question in three words? :confused:

What? Three??? I thought you can count up to 46! :p : ;)

[Tazio]

What? Three??? I thought you can count up to 46! :p : ;)

the question:I don't know why do you believe that Renault F1 engines are better than Toyota, Honda or let's say Ferrari?!

The answer:I don't necessarily

The unsolicited comentary: But I think they are every bit as good. More reliable than
all the ones you listed, and maybe able to make the most efficient use of kinetic energy.
Plus I was implying allegorically that Fred would add synergistically to its strength!

I come to this forum to have fun Not to insult people and take apart their opinions you do it like
it's a paying job!

[woody2goody]

Something funny I read on itv.com today:

Ron Dennis seems to think that BMW 'can't match the 'top teams'' development pace' throughout the season.

Has Ron noticed who is leading the constructors' championship? And also that it is Heidfeld and not Hamilton who is second in the driver's championship? BMW are a big team now no matter what he or anyone else says or thinks.

[Valve Bounce]

No use my predicting that BMW will shake up the title rce this year; they have already done it. Finally, both of their drivers have cars which will show their full ability.

[AJP]

I for one am really happy that BMW Sauber are doing so well this year.
I really hope they can keep it up. As for their drivers, Kubica seems to have the edge on Heidfeld and I'll wait to see if either can step ot up for a race win. I expect it to be very close in Monaco if they can qualify at the front of the grid.
I am also a little sad that BMW and Williams couldn't keep it together long enough for these kind of reseults...oh well

[woody2goody]

But Williams are definitely better this season. They seem to be either very quick or very slow, the car can't seem to make up it's mind whether it's the 2007 Honda or the 2007 Ferrari!

[ioan]

Something funny I read on itv.com today:

Ron Dennis seems to think that BMW 'can't match the 'top teams'' development pace' throughout the season.

Has Ron noticed who is leading the constructors' championship? And also that it is Heidfeld and not Hamilton who is second in the driver's championship? BMW are a big team now no matter what he or anyone else says or thinks.

Not to mention that this year BMW might have a bigger budget than McLaren. Also I seem to remember that BMW has the best aerodynamic development tools out of all the F1 teams, thanks to Sauber.

Ron is just blowing hot air, again!

[ArrowsFA1]

Ron Dennis seems to think that BMW 'can't match the 'top teams'' development pace' throughout the season.

Has Ron noticed who is leading the constructors' championship? And also that it is Heidfeld and not Hamilton who is second in the driver's championship? BMW are a big team now no matter what he or anyone else says or thinks.
Time will tell whether BMW can maintain their current position. At the moment, as well as their own strong performance, they have benefitted from Massa failing to score in the first two races, and Hamilton's poor race in Bahrain. That has put them ahead of Ferrari and McLaren in the standings.

Ron's point is, now that the season heads back to Europe "the R&D and speed of manufacture starts to make a difference", the suggestion being that perhaps BMW are not yet at the level of Ferrari & McLaren in this area.

I hope for the sake of a good battle between three teams, not the usual two, that RD is proved wrong and BMW will be up there throughout the year.

[Tazio]

Something funny I read on itv.com today:

Ron Dennis seems to think that BMW 'can't match the 'top teams'' development pace' throughout the season.

Has Ron noticed who is leading the constructors' championship? And also that it is Heidfeld and not Hamilton who is second in the driver's championship? BMW are a big team now no matter what he or anyone else says or thinks.Link please?

[ArrowsFA1]

Link please?
http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/66479

[Tazio]

Isn’t he basing his opinion on past experience?
I think Woody's remarks are warranted.
What makes Ron's opinion valid?
Does he have sources close to BMW? ;)
This maybe a situation that I'm misinformed on,
But I got the impression that BMW took a chance by
changing their car radically, as it would be difficult, yet worth the risk
if it came together, and the only realistic course of action to compete with Ferrari, and McLaren.
It doesn't make any sense that a car that is a new concept
would be less likely to be able to develop.
To me it sounds like wishful thinking.

[ArrowsFA1]

What makes Ron's opinion valid?
What makes it invalid? :p

It's his opinion, that's all. It's not a statement of fact. Time will show whether he is right or wrong.

[Valve Bounce]

What makes it invalid? :p

It's his opinion, that's all. It's not a statement of fact. Time will show whether he is right or wrong.

At this stage, I have a suspicion that BMW will emerge with bettr performances as the season progresses.
They have scored a pole now, have podiums galore, and the confidence this brings to the team will mean that they will go out for wins in the future. I certainly hope so, because at present, the top teams are not Poles apart.

[Tazio]

What makes it invalid? :p

It's his opinion, that's all. It's not a statement of fact. Time will show whether he is right or wrong.
Maybe I proposed that question inproprely!
There is nothing of substance given in that article that suggests
Bmw is going to fall behind in R/D I'm not knocking Rons opinion
In fact If he does know/suspect they can't keep up I don't expect him to give out hepful advise. I was just hoping for more ;)
I got sucked in by a provoative headline :confused:

[Garry Walker]

Looking at the points standings I wouldn't say your point (no pun intended) has any support.

Kubica was faster in the last 2 races and in Australia was leading NH as well, before BMW gave him a stupid strategy and then he was rammed out by Kazuki. So far Kubica has been the far more impressive driver.


I think Monaco, Hungary, Canada, Valencia and Singapore will be a good indication whether they can get a win or not.

What about Spa or the other 10 races?


I don't think so, considering Nick was 2nd in Australia and Robert didn't do very much in the race. If BMW had not messed up with RKs strategy, it would have been him in the 2nd place.



And considering Nick started 6th yesterday, he was only a couple of seconds behind Robert, and did the 2nd fastest lap, faster than Robert's. Both men did really well. Robert started off well and Nick finished well. And they raced all the way to the end making it more uncomfortable for Ferrari than they would have liked.

I'd say one to Nick (Australia), one to Robert (Malaysia) and one draw (Bahrain). I still think Heidfeld will win before Kubica but Kubica will get more pole positions.

Kubica finished in front and never held NH up. So it is not a draw, it is a win for RK.
Only bad luck caused Kubica not to beat NH at Melbourne.


I don't necessarily. But I think they are every bit as good. More reliable than
all the ones you listed, and maybe able to make the most efficient use of kinetic energy.
Plus I was implying allegorically that Fred would add synergistically to its strength!

According to what I have read, Renault is currenly clearly lacking in engine power compared to the top teams.


Something funny I read on itv.com today:

Ron Dennis seems to think that BMW 'can't match the 'top teams'' development pace' throughout the season.

Has Ron noticed who is leading the constructors' championship? And also that it is Heidfeld and not Hamilton who is second in the driver's championship? BMW are a big team now no matter what he or anyone else says or thinks.

MS thought the same, and quite frankly I can`t see how they have arrived to such conclusions. BMW probably has the most amount of potential in their car.

[ioan]

Heidfeld did better than Kubica. Results speak for themselves, IFs do not.

[Garry Walker]

Heidfeld did better than Kubica. Results speak for themselves, IFs do not.

My point is that Kubica was FASTER and LEADING Heidfeld at melbourne, before BMW made a mistake. That has been the case in all the 3 races so far. Espescially in qualifying.

As a Ferrari fan, I am happy that it is Heidfeld who has more points than Kubica, because I don`t see NH as a threat for the title, but Kubica could well be.

[wedge]

What about Spa or the other 10 races?

They're more reliant on aero and it depends on BMW's pace at development. The other tracks I mentioned are reliant on mechanical grip where it plays more on driver skill as well as the car.


MS thought the same, and quite frankly I can`t see how they have arrived to such conclusions. BMW probably has the most amount of potential in their car.

Pretty much agree but having potential is one thing, 'achieving' it is another.

[jens]

Garry Walker, you constantly bring out the unluck of Kubica, but deny the unluck of Heidfeld.

In Malaysia the battle could have been very even if McLarens hadn't blocked Heidfeld in qualifying. Without that blocking NH would have been 3rd on the grid with Kubica 7th (McLarens wouldn't have been penalized) - in that case I'm confident Nick would have finished ahead. Or if at Turn1 Nick hadn't been forced to run wide, then I guess he would have certainly finished on podium - ahead or behind Kubica, hard to tell.

And in Australia Heidfeld was less than 2 seconds behind Kubica after the first stops and before the Safety Car mess. Heidfeld's second stint was also longer and it could have been possible that without any SC mess Heidfeld could have passed Kubica during the second round of pitstops, but we'll never know.

[Mikeall]

F1 is more difficult this year and and Massa, Raikkonen and Hamilton have all made big mistakes. The gap from Ferrari to BMW was very small in Bahrain and theres no reason why they cant start winning races soon.

[ioan]

My point is that Kubica was FASTER and LEADING Heidfeld at melbourne, before BMW made a mistake. That has been the case in all the 3 races so far. Espescially in qualifying.

Qualifying didn't earn anyone a championship, and no points either, race craft is what is important and Heidfeld is better as the points standings show.


As a Ferrari fan, I am happy that it is Heidfeld who has more points than Kubica, because I don`t see NH as a threat for the title, but Kubica could well be.

As a Ferrari fan I'm not at all worried about BMW this season, maybe next seasonand even then it will be Heidfeld as he is very very constant, and consistency is what won the WDC for a few years now, not qualifying with less fuel.

[ArrowsFA1]

As a Ferrari fan I'm not at all worried about BMW this season...
So you agree with Ron Dennis then.

[ioan]

So you agree with Ron Dennis then.

I would add that I'm not at all worried about McLaren either, in fact I would say that they will lose out to BMW in the fight for 2nd place.

So, no I don't agree with Ron because BMW will do better than McTeam.

[ArrowsFA1]

So, no I don't agree with Ron because BMW will do better than McTeam.
Nice to know Jackie Stewart is back in team management. It'll be great to see those tartan trousers back again :p but how do you think BWM will compare with McLaren? :D

[tintop]

Take away the glockenspiel down under and the two BMW racers would probably be even in points.

It will be interesting to see which driver comes out on top this season. Last year BMW were in sort of a bubble between the rest and Mcrrari and didn't seem to be under too much duress. Now that they might be in a real scrap with Mc for 2nd and occasionally be in position to win a race, there will be some real pressure on the 2 pilots. I wonder who will excel under those conditions?

[truefan72]

longer than what Michael Schumacher thinks

[Tazio]

Take away the glockenspiel down under and the two BMW racers would probably be even in points.

It will be interesting to see which driver comes out on top this season. Last year BMW were in sort of a bubble between the rest and Mcrrari and didn't seem to be under too much duress. Now that they might be in a real scrap with Mc for 2nd and occasionally be in position to win a race, there will be some real pressure on the 2 pilots. I wonder who will excel under those conditions?Up untill bahrain I thought it was RK hands down. It appears that like BMW Nick is on a mission. It's too close to call between those two, and I respectfully disagree with Ron. BMW will hang with Mclaren untill the end!