Sorry guys......

[jimispeed]

It was still boring.......

Why was CART at Michigan so much more exciting back in the day??

Maybe the cars, or the type of track, I don't know, it was just boring for me.

From hearing the comments from the Champcar drivers, it sounded like they were learning, but also keeping their noses clean, so they could survive to race another day.

The commentary did nothing for me either. I missed hearing radio transmissions from team to driver every once in awhile. I missed Jon Beekhus' excerpts that always gave us the racers and engineers perspective.

I miss alot of things.....

[CARTDM15]

I'm with you on this.The racing is so boring.100 percent throttle racing will do nothing for me.I don't care who is racing.
Marty Ried and Scott Goodyear are awful.Way to much Danica.Is that what we have to put up with for two hours?
I can't wait for the road course races.

[Hoop-98]

Well you aren't really with him because CART at Michigan was 100 pct full throttle racing.

BTW, Dixon was lifting all night, at this track you could trim the car out to the edge and a number of the fastest guys were having to lift.

The low downforce setup was loose, but loose is fast if you can hang on.

rh

[call_me_andrew]

I'm not sure what you guy's were watching, but I saw a good race tonight. I'm not saying the formula is perfect, but it could be a lot worse.

[-Helix-]

What was boring about it? Not enough big death-defying crashes for you like Michigan would provide?

It wasn't overly exciting but it wasn't boring either. I had no complaints.

Marco racing for a win at a track he has had a lot of bad luck at, Wheldon making it up to the front after starting in the back, Danica trying to get control of her car, Kanaan avoiding what could have been a huge wreck to only damage his suspension and try to make it to the finish with the damage.

The only thing where it lacked was having so many cars so spread out. Only, what, 6 cars finished on the lead lap? Very little pack racing. Mostly chasing/avoiding traffic. It was more like a short-track race than a superspeedway race. Thus, why it was different from Michigan.

And they WERE lifting. Not sure where people get the idea that Homestead is a flat out track.

[Hoop-98]

You can make laps at Homestead flat out, but the fastest guys run a lot less downforce. SInce the 80's there has been enough downforce to run most superspeedways flat, but of course thats on a perfect lap.

Justin was flat almost all night, the leaders were lifting a lot.

Unfortunately at the high banked 1.5's in the past you could not trim the cars enough.

rh

[indycool]

Good post, Helix. jimispeed is just trying to carry the flame that went out a month ago.

[indycool]

Good post, Helix. jimispeed is still carrying a torch that hasn't burned since six weeks ago.

[F1boat]

Good post, Helix. jimispeed is just trying to carry the flame that went out a month ago.

He is spamming IMO.

[Chris R]

I thought the race was ok - but something was not right - I am not sure what - but it did not have that extra something that makes it special. The crowd was disappointing, the split screen cameras were often very annoying (not the commercial thing - I like that - but the 2 in car plus the on track action were just distracting). They definitely have to do something about the engines - the "gentleman start your engines" part was disappointing to say the least. Also, what was up with all the stuff and people in the way when the cars were driving onto the track for the first time??

The TV people were trying to hype it up - but the atmosphere seemed less than ideal...

That being said - the racing was decent - if not confusing - hopefully they will have better car graphics later in the season so you can pick out who is who. Overall, a decent start - but underwhelming. I am optimistic for better things to come - I am thinking this is going to be a mess until Indy....

[DBell]

Watched the race on DVR this morning and it was pretty much what I expected. Hopefully St. Pete will be more competitive than AGR, Penske, Gannasi and then everyone else.

[qwinsee]

I watched the first half of the race and I cannot even say it was the racing, maybe the coverage? Just didn't grab me. I don't have an 97 inch TV so when they split the screen and showed half track shot, well you really couldn't get much from the footage they were showing. When the first yellow came out they cut away all together to a commercial. I would like to see more coverage of the pit sequences and information about the different stratagies. I don't know if I wasn't use to the commentators or what, I just thought something was lacking, not sure what, something though!

[nanders]

You can make laps at Homestead flat out, but the fastest guys run a lot less downforce. SInce the 80's there has been enough downforce to run most superspeedways flat, but of course thats on a perfect lap.

Justin was flat almost all night, the leaders were lifting a lot.

Unfortunately at the high banked 1.5's in the past you could not trim the cars enough.

rh

Hoopty,

Do you have the telemetry with "Race Control?"

I'm interested as to what their driving is like from that point of view. When in the corners, you could see from the helicopter shots that, cars could not follow in the tracks of a proceeding car and when a following car would cross an aero wake from low to high, it would get a good push up the track.

Also for those who think the race was boring, that's what you get when there are less cautions. This is where car setup really means something. When an Indy Car oval race has just a few caution it starts to look like a F1 race with too many safety car periods :eek: But it's true. The fastest cars drive away ... as they should. Pack racing is only good for a little thrill so you got to wrap your minds around the strategy .... setup, fuel, tires ... like CART used to be.

[Hoop-98]

Yes it has it but was pretty spotty this time, hopefully they will get the bugs out. As far as AERO push, to me this is what much of the research should be about for the next gen car.

IMHO that means wind tunnel and track testing of leading/trailing car interference.

I liked the wing angle setting here, you could definitely trim the car out.

rh

[jarrambide]

The problem for me was the fact that just a couple of cars finished on the leader lap.
Everyone here knows that I´m not an oval fan, I watch them, but I prefer a track over an oval every day of the week (just a personal taste, nothing more, nothing less).
When other racing fans try to sell me oval races they always try to sell the point of how in ovals unlike tracks you get so many cars fighting for the first 3 positions, and with so many cars at the track (after watching races with only 17 cars, more than 20 is a lot of cars in my eyes, and I´m not even counting Milka), I assumed that would be true, but it wasn´t the case.
Hopefully this will change in the future, I´m not asking for 20 cars in the leader lap, but 11 or 12 cars in the leader lap with 15 or 20 laps to go would be nice.

[jarrambide]

The problem for me was the fact that just a couple of cars finished on the leader lap.
Everyone here knows that I´m not an oval fan, I watch them, but I prefer a track over an oval every day of the week (just a personal taste, nothing more, nothing less).
When other racing fans try to sell me oval races they always try to sell the point of how in ovals unlike tracks you get so many cars fighting for the first 3 positions, and with so many cars at the track (after watching races with only 17 cars, more than 20 is a lot of cars in my eyes, and I´m not even counting Milka), I assumed that would be true, but it wasn´t the case.
Hopefully this will change in the future, I´m not asking for 20 cars in the leader lap, but 11 or 12 cars in the leader lap with 15 or 20 laps to go would be nice.

[Hoop-98]

Good post, Helix. jimispeed is just trying to carry the flame that went out a month ago.

Actually, compared to prior posts from that viewpoint, I see a definite positive movement :) but then I have a good eye for subtlety.

rh

[garyshell]

I enjoyed the race. First oval I have seen for a few years. But the TV coverage stunk. Where was the driver to pit radio coverage? I think I heard ONE segment all night. I miss Jan Beekus in the pits. Where was the technical descriptions of what was going on? Scott Goodyear is like listening to paint dry and his partner, whatever the ***** his name is, was not much better.

It looked to me like the ex-OWRS guys had a bit to much downforce dialed in. But I understand the need to keep your only car in one piece so that you have something to run in St. Pete.

It was nice to hear Dixon lifting for the corners! THANK YOU! THANK YOU! THANK YOU! I would have like to have heard more incar audio from the others.

But with all that, it was a REAL treat to see 25 cars on track!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
And above all, it was just damn nice to be racing once again.

Gary

[BobGarage]

I enjoyed the race. First oval I have seen for a few years. But the TV coverage stunk. Where was the driver to pit radio coverage? I think I heard ONE segment all night. Where was the technical descriptions of what was going on? Scott Goodyear is like listening to paint dry and his partner, whatever the ***** his name is, was not much better.

I enjoyed the race but the TV coverage was sh!t. I only wish we in the UK could have had Goodyear and friends, because the international TV commentators are ****ing aweful! And it didn't help that Sky Sports kept cutting away from them to talk in studio (with "analysts" that know less about the racing than the fans watching do!) and then then going back to them mid sentace so you didn't have a clue what they were talking about.

Bring back Jeremy Shaw and Hinch! The best duo any international TV feed has ever had!

The international TV feed did have a lot of the pit radio stuff. The idiots commentating did talk over it half the time though. Or aknowledged it but came out with comments like "that was Marco, I have no idea what he was talking about".

:(

[downtowndeco]

It was still boring.......

Why was CART at Michigan so much more exciting back in the day??

Maybe the cars, or the type of track, I don't know, it was just boring for me.

From hearing the comments from the Champcar drivers, it sounded like they were learning, but also keeping their noses clean, so they could survive to race another day.

The commentary did nothing for me either. I missed hearing radio transmissions from team to driver every once in awhile. I missed Jon Beekhus' excerpts that always gave us the racers and engineers perspective.

I miss alot of things.....

I'm sorry you didn't enjoy the race. I did, as did many others. I'm not sure what part you didn't like. That it was a fairly clean, green flag race? That the fastest (or at least one of the fastest) cars won or that there was not much "pack" racing?

Sorry. If this would have been a CCWS or CART race I feel you'd be proclaimming it was the best oval race ever.

[Dr. Krogshöj]

Well you aren't really with him because CART at Michigan was 100 pct full throttle racing.

BTW, Dixon was lifting all night, at this track you could trim the car out to the edge and a number of the fastest guys were having to lift.

The low downforce setup was loose, but loose is fast if you can hang on.

rh

I admit I'm not very familiar with the IRL formula, so I would appreciate a little tech insight.

You say the top teams could trim the car out to the edge so that the fastest guys had to lift. I wonder whether they will be able to do that on the D-shaped 1.5-mile high banked tracks as well. Or was that only down to Homestead's unique shape.

[nanders]

If this would have been a CCWS or CART race I feel you'd be proclaimming it was the best oval race ever.

That would be CCWS 2003 Lauzitring. :s mokin:

[jarrambide]

That would be CCWS 2003 Lauzitring. :s mokin:

Which is the reason I still watch oval races, if I get to see another race like that, watching every other oval race will be worth it. (Not only that race, I still remember the 500 PT didn´t win, that was an exciting ending, regardless of the controversy, or how about that race Kanaan won in the IRL that was a photo finish, that was also exciting)

In the words of my grand dad, to see a great bull fight, you have to attend every one.

[-Helix-]

For those of you complaining about the TV coverage, you have to remember that all of us here are the most hardcore of fans whereas TV stations are trying to appeal to the most casual of fans, possibly even those who have never seen a race before. So you have to expect it to be "dumbed down" most of the time.

[garyshell]

For those of you complaining about the TV coverage, you have to remember that all of us here are the most hardcore of fans whereas TV stations are trying to appeal to the most casual of fans, possibly even those who have never seen a race before. So you have to expect it to be "dumbed down" most of the time.


We most assuredly do not have to expect that. No, we have to expect the style of broadcasting that Jon Beekhuis provided the past few years. He upped the ante by being able to describe the most technical of details or situations so that ANYONE could understand them but at the same time never dumbing down his message.

We should not only expect that, we really should demand it.

Gary

[BenRoethig]

It looked to me exactly what I thought it was going to be, the beginning of a transition year. Anyone expecting every to be peachy right off the bat has unrealistic expectations.

[Easy Drifter]

The complaining about Scott and Rick has been ongoing so do not expect any better this year. If anyone knew Scotty back in his FF days they would never believe him as a comentator. A compelling discussion with Scotty would have been 'Yes, maybe, no, well maybe'.

[ezhop7]

IN my opinion I thought the race was exciting, there was passing, there was some strategy, drama and a winner. But all for all it was a safe race in which all the driver walk away from whatever accident they were involved. Oval racing may never appeal to everyone....Pepsi vs Coke.....but anyway the next race is St. Pete I bet that people will complain also that the commentators suck, the race was boring or their TV set was too small. My favorite track is Texas so if you crossover guys thought Homestead was boring I know the Champcar guys are really going to be nervous at the Texas Two step.

[acescribe]

I enjoyed the race but the TV coverage was sh!t. I only wish we in the UK could have had Goodyear and friends, because the international TV commentators are ****ing aweful! And it didn't help that Sky Sports kept cutting away from them to talk in studio (with "analysts" that know less about the racing than the fans watching do!) and then then going back to them mid sentace so you didn't have a clue what they were talking about.

Bring back Jeremy Shaw and Hinch! The best duo any international TV feed has ever had!



:(

Id second all that. What is worse is that I dont believe the bumbling duo Gary Lee and Larry Rice are actually ever at the track, except from perhaps Indy. They are just looking at the same pictures on the screen that we seem and timing and scoring on the computer. Correct me if I'm wrong anyone... Still at least they didnt get to say "hi to Tomas Sheckter's mom on Cape Town South Africa" this time. And quite why Sky seem to think they HAVE to have a studio panel for the Indycars AND Nascar I dont know.

[Andrewmcm]

Id second all that. What is worse is that I dont believe the bumbling duo Gary Lee and Larry Rice are actually ever at the track, except from perhaps Indy. They are just looking at the same pictures on the screen that we seem and timing and scoring on the computer. Correct me if I'm wrong anyone... Still at least they didnt get to say "hi to Tomas Sheckter's mom on Cape Town South Africa" this time. And quite why Sky seem to think they HAVE to have a studio panel for the Indycars AND Nascar I dont know.

I think that's because they have something to cover the video feed when the US network goes for a break at a time when Sky doesn't have to.

[BobGarage]

I think that's because they have something to cover the video feed when the US network goes for a break at a time when Sky doesn't have to.

Sky show the International TV feed not the US TV network Feed. The international TV feed doesn't go off for breaks. They continue through 100% of the race. And the local TV stations choose when to break off for their own ad breaks.

Sky only goes back to the studio during yellow flag periods on the IRL (or at least thats what they did yesterday) but then we miss everything that is happening at the track and that is more interesting than hearing sky's studio analysts repeating what we have already seen with our own eyes.

[ACTF_ZETT]

Homestead was the worst race of the year in 2007. I had very low expectations for the race, however it was better than I expected. With that said the excitement factor is nothing close to what it will be in a few weeks.

Kanaan got F-d. Not happy about that.

I think were all on the same page when it comes to the announcers. The guys that call the race on XM are great. Either get them on TV or get Paul Page back in the booth plz.

[nanders]

bumbling duo Gary Lee and Larry Rice are actually ever at the track, except from perhaps Indy.

I didn't know who did the ICS world feed. But if I had to listen to those to fellows I wouldn't be happy.

Here in the US it's just as bad because Marty Reed and Scott Goodyear are marginal. Neither one of these guys should ever have a close-up on an HD camera, it was flat out scary. They need to go to Dan Weldon's make over specialist. Forget I just said that ... They both looked like they were covering up a bad hang-over with makeup. As much as I thought Rusty Wallace was an odd choice for the ICS last year, he made it better then these two xxxxxx xxxxxxx's, help me here, I'm looking for a colorful descriptive metaphor for Marty and Scott.

[garyshell]

I didn't know who did the ICS world feed. But if I had to listen to those to fellows I wouldn't be happy.

Here in the US it's just as bad because Marty Reed and Scott Goodyear are marginal. Neither one of these guys should ever have a close-up on an HD camera, it was flat out scary. They need to go to Dan Weldon's make over specialist. Forget I just said that ... They both looked like they were covering up a bad hang-over with makeup. As much as I thought Rusty Wallace was an odd choice for the ICS last year, he made it better then these two xxxxxx xxxxxxx's, help me here, I'm looking for a colorful descriptive metaphor for Marty and Scott.

Dumb and Dumber?

Gary

[Andrewmcm]

Ah right, I was thinking about the NASCAR coverage.

[evo5_mat]

well watched the race up to 1/2 way maybe abit more but like others, something seemed missing. Now i love motorsport, have done cornerworking for champcar for many years etc around the world and done few ovals at rockingham etc for champcar but ive justed watched the whole race in nascar and came away more excited from the couch than i did the IRL race.

Maybe because i didnt see it as a race, over half the field were really doing a test day in front of the camera's and as soon as the teams started saying that i lost interested. I can see this continuing actually, with teams not really truely participating hard until maybe next year or until the new cars came out.

I like one of the comment one of the drivers said, IRL teams have had 5 years of learning the car we have had 50 laps, with irl teams learning even more when they go to Japan and we do long beach.
Now how many new sponsors are going to carry on or enter a series when 1/2 the teams will be at the back doing tests, i cant see Mcdonalds putting up with that on the wilson car being at the back of the field after winning the last few years in champcar.
Maybe im wrong on some counts but its a possibility that could happened if not careful

[CARTDM15]

Good post, Helix. jimispeed is just trying to carry the flame that went out a month ago.
It has nothing to do with Champcar/Irl.Some people just don't like oval racing.I find nothing excited about cars running side by side for laps on end.It gets boring in a hurry.I'm all aboard on a unified series and I know I have to deal with ovals but it don't mean that I will like.

[jso1985]

Sorry. If this would have been a CCWS or CART race I feel you'd be proclaimming it was the best oval race ever.

Agree, just another CART/CCWS fan who used to hate the IRL... and still has a very biased view, kinda understandable, I'm a huge F1 fan, while not a huge one of other series, to me the most boring F1 race is still better than Chicago's race last year for example :p

The race was kinda good actually IMO, feel kinda sorry for Kanaan though

[!!WALDO!!]

Wow!!! My keyboard just locked up.

You know in 1954 the First race on the newly Paved Milwaukee Mile, 19 cars ended up on the lead lap after 100 miles. Only 22 started. That is just about the most cars ever on the lead lap when the race didn't continue to run after the leaders took the checkered.

I bet there would be people that think that was a bore. If they ever invent time travel I would travel back to that race since I was less than 6 months old.
1 98 Chuck Stevenson Agajanian Kuzma D Offy 100 1:01:31.297 97.529 10-31,52-100
2 44 Manuel Ayulo Peter Schmidt Kuzma D Offy 100 Finished
3 25 Jimmy Reece Malloy Pankratz D Offy 100 Finished
4 2 Jack McGrath Hinkle Kurtis 4000 Offy 100 Finished
5 26 Pat O'Connor Hopkins Lesovsky D Offy 100 Finished
6 31 Gene Hartley John Zink Kurtis 4000 Offy 100 Finished
7 6 Troy Ruttman Springfield Welding Kurtis 4000 Offy 100 Finished
8 43 Walt Faulkner Chapman Russo\Nich Offy 100 Finished
9 7 Don Freeland Bob Estes Phillips Offy 100 Finished
10 12 Rodger Ward Dr. Sabourin Pawl D Offy 100 Finished
11 17 Bob Sweikert Lutes Truck Parts Kurtis 4000 Offy 100 Finished
12 49 Johnny Tolan Anderson Kurtis 4000 Offy 100 Finished
13 45 Joe Sostilio Bardahl Kurtis 4000 Offy 100 Finished
14 68 Ed Elisian Peter Wales Trucking Kurtis 4000 Offy 100 Finished
15 83 Mike Nazaruk McNamara Turner D Offy 100 Finished
16 5 Johnnie Parsons Ansted Rotary Kurtis 500 Offy 100 Finished
17 14 Jimmy Davies Pat Clancy Ewing D Offy 100 Finished
18 21 Bob Scott Travelon Trailer Kurtis 500 Offy 100 Finished
19 16 Duane Carter Auto Shippers Kurtis 4000 Offy 100 Finished
20 28 Larry Crockett Federal Engineering Kurtis 3000 Offy 93 Wrecked turn 4 32-51
21 76 Andy Linden Leitenberger Silnes/She Offy 92 Wrecked turn 4
22 9 Bill Vukovich Dean Van Lines Kuzma D Offy 77 Broken steering 1-9 POLE WINNER Car Pictured in Picture Quiz

[nanders]

It has nothing to do with Champcar/Irl.Some people just don't like oval racing.I find nothing excited about cars running side by side for laps on end.It gets boring in a hurry.I'm all aboard on a unified series and I know I have to deal with ovals but it don't mean that I will like.

You know, how that race played out was hardly any different then the Aus F1 race. 3 cautions and cars driving around with only a few passes and teams working pit strategies to pick up a spot. Honestly, I cannot believe you can perceive them much differently except one is on an oval and the other a road course. I think you are prejudiced to one type of racing. If that's true, why are you watching in the first place? Or maybe you are a disgruntled crappy that has yet to adjust to the ICS.

[nanders]

Dumb and Dumber?

Gary

Done. From now on when I refer to Dumb and Dumber it means Reed and Goodyear.

[-Helix-]

You know, how that race played out was hardly any different then the Aus F1 race. 3 cautions and cars driving around with only a few passes and teams working pit strategies to pick up a spot. Honestly, I cannot believe you can perceive them much differently except one is on an oval and the other a road course. I think you are prejudiced to one type of racing. If that's true, why are you watching in the first place? Or maybe you are a disgruntled crappy that has yet to adjust to the ICS.

Agreed. You would think road racing fans would've liked that race more than a typical oval race considering it was basically a road course race with all left turns.

Reminded me of an F1 race too. There was very little, if any, pack racing. Few cautions meant the cars were very spread out with only a few cars having a chance to win. Slower traffic and pit stops were the important factors in deciding the race.

The fanatics need to get their stories straight. First they don't like oval racing because it's side-by-side the whole time and flat out, yet they see Michigan as a good oval race even though it's flat out pack racing? I don't get it. Homestead was NOT pack racing and was NOT flat out, so why didn't the fanatics like it?

Take off the CC goggles and actually watch the racing, people.

[Mad_Hatter]

The low downforce setup was loose, but loose is fast if you can hang on.

rh

This brings a question to mind. I heard that during one of the broadcasts also. If a loose car is fast, wouldn't that lend to drivers who have experience being able to go well in these cars. Specifically sprint car drivers. If that is the case why are there those who claim these drivers(sprint car drivers) find it hard to adjust to rear engined open wheelers.


I know this might derail the topic a little, but it looks like its headed to the dumps anyways. Anybody let me know if I should start a new thread for this.

[jimispeed]

Sorry. If this would have been a CCWS or CART race I feel you'd be proclaimming it was the best oval race ever.

Not true for me....

I remember the CART days at Michigan where lead changes were exchanged between many of the drivers.

I don't know, maybe it was the commentary. The lack of excitement.

I'm not sure, it just wasn't it for me dog....

:D

[jimispeed]

I enjoyed the race. First oval I have seen for a few years. But the TV coverage stunk. Where was the driver to pit radio coverage? I think I heard ONE segment all night. I miss Jan Beekus in the pits. Where was the technical descriptions of what was going on? Scott Goodyear is like listening to paint dry and his partner, whatever the ***** his name is, was not much better.

It looked to me like the ex-OWRS guys had a bit to much downforce dialed in. But I understand the need to keep your only car in one piece so that you have something to run in St. Pete.

It was nice to hear Dixon lifting for the corners! THANK YOU! THANK YOU! THANK YOU! I would have like to have heard more incar audio from the others.

But with all that, it was a REAL treat to see 25 cars on track!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
And above all, it was just damn nice to be racing once again.

Gary

Good points Gary!

[ShiftingGears]

Not true for me....

I remember the CART days at Michigan where lead changes were exchanged between many of the drivers.

I don't know, maybe it was the commentary. The lack of excitement.

I'm not sure, it just wasn't it for me dog....

:D

Homestead-Miami isn't Michigan. The same way that Bristol isn't Daytona.

I'm sure it was the commentary. It's yawn inducing!

[BenRoethig]

Homestead-Miami isn't Michigan. The same way that Bristol isn't Daytona.

I'm sure it was the commentary. It's yawn inducing!

And we're not looking a full mature series yet. The teams had a month to get ready after spending the entire off season (and lots of their own money) under Forsythe's illusion that there was going to be a Champ Car season. Look, 2008 (the first few months at least) is a real season for the existing teams and a test session with prize money for the transition teams. We need the teams to get ready, we need the foreign road racers to adapt, and that doesn't happen overnight.

[ShiftingGears]

And we're not looking a full mature series yet. The teams had a month to get ready after spending the entire off season (and lots of their own money) under Forsythe's illusion that there was going to be a Champ Car season. Look, 2008 (the first few months at least) is a real season for the existing teams and a test session with prize money for the transition teams. We need the teams to get ready, we need the foreign road racers to adapt, and that doesn't happen overnight.

Yep. Also as the season progresses there should be more cars for the ex-CCWS teams so the drivers can be a bit less tentative about driving on the ovals. Hence more competitive.

[jwhite9185]

Id second all that. What is worse is that I dont believe the bumbling duo Gary Lee and Larry Rice are actually ever at the track, except from perhaps Indy. They are just looking at the same pictures on the screen that we seem and timing and scoring on the computer. Correct me if I'm wrong anyone... Still at least they didnt get to say "hi to Tomas Sheckter's mom on Cape Town South Africa" this time. And quite why Sky seem to think they HAVE to have a studio panel for the Indycars AND Nascar I dont know.


I have to agree that the international commentators are just boring! I dont have any problems with them going back to the studio now and again, but please do something about the commentary! Bring back at least Jeremy Shaw. Not too sure how easy it will be to get Hinch in the commentary box now though.

[seppefan]

I have to agree that the international commentators are just boring! I dont have any problems with them going back to the studio now and again, but please do something about the commentary! Bring back at least Jeremy Shaw. Not too sure how easy it will be to get Hinch in the commentary box now though.

They need to do something as these commentators are very poor and say some really dumb things. Hinch, yes please. I like the studio bit as the UK guys at least say something of interest about the race, Championship, teams etc.

[MarcoCheever]

Scott Goodyear is great he tells it like it is and does a good job !

[V12]

My two pennies for what they are worth....but I find orchestrated 'pack racing' really, really, really boring. It renders the first 199 laps of a race largely irrelevant, or certainly anything before the final pit-stop/caution.

What we got on Saturday was a good motor race. When Dixon, Kanaan or Andretti had a faster car, they would pull away, and it would be up to others to drive faster and catch up, which they sometimes did, there was Wheldon making his way up from the back, and all in all you can say that whoever won deserved to win (Kanaan's dose of misfortune aside), which is what any sport should be about IMO.

Was it a classic? No, but a good, honest old-fashioned motor race that I enjoyed and had no complaints about.

I like the bull fight analogy as well. Remember if EVERY race was a tense thriller, then by comparison NONE of them would be.

[garyshell]

Scott Goodyear is great he tells it like it is and does a good job !


BOOOOOOOOOORRRRRRRRRIIIIIIIIINNNNNNNNGGGGGGGGG. ZZZZzzzzzzzzzzz.
Sorry, but I respectfully disagree. He is like listening to paint dry. We realy need someone like Parker Johnstone, Tommy Kendall or Jon Beekihus in the booth. My prferenece would have to be Jon. He is the best I have EVER heard in my 50 plus years of listening.

Gary

[Hoop-98]

I like that bullfight analogy!!! It was an ok race to me, and the average race is just that, ok, imo.

Of course during the split the partisans would proclaim each race of theirs a classic and of the others a joke.

The fact that we are mainly discussing announcers, must mean the race was ok lol...

rh

[bblocker68]

Scott Goodyear is great he tells it like it is and does a good job !

Good one.

All I can ever think of when I see Goodbeer on TV is..........
"WAS THAT REALLY THE PACE CAR???????????"
He needs to go hang out with Jared from Subway. He's looking a little pudgy.

As for Reed, it was a single thought coming ionto my mind over and over.
That man should not be shot in HD. He looked like Lon Chaney in Phantom of the Opera!!!!!!

They did okay, IMO. Champcar races were pretty bad last year with the exception of Jon. It was usually a constant uninformed homer fest.

Oh yeah, Jack Arute, please do your homework. I heard him say the drivers had a hard time adjusting to the car after dark becasue they only tested in the day time. Jackie, you are still an ****clown.

I was rooting pretty hard for Marco to win. The kid could use a break after having a bad year in 2007.

One HUGE thing missing last night......PT.

Free him of his contract NOW!!!!!!!!!

Looking forward to St. Pete.

[Duralumin]

Not since CCWS's HDNet coverage back in '04 did I enjoy American open wheel racing in true HiDef. (Although I beg to differ with the announcers, the in-car view is widescreen but not true HiDef) So I say cheers. Now if only F1 was in HiDef on SpeedHD...

[cartpix]

This brings a question to mind. I heard that during one of the broadcasts also. If a loose car is fast, wouldn't that lend to drivers who have experience being able to go well in these cars. Specifically sprint car drivers. If that is the case why are there those who claim these drivers(sprint car drivers) find it hard to adjust to rear engined open wheelers.


I know this might derail the topic a little, but it looks like its headed to the dumps anyways. Anybody let me know if I should start a new thread for this.

The loose cars being faster because they had less downforce. Less downforce means less drag. Less drag means faster speeds. Even though they had to lift in the corners, the straightaway speeds were greater, making them faster overall per lap. I haven't seen all the race yet (I'm watching it tonight) but from what I saw, the fast cars were twitchy in the corners but they weren't driving them, in a broadslide, like sprint car drivers do. IndyCars are also a lot faster than spint cars, so the transition between sprint / dirt cars is very difficult. They are very different cars.

Jeff

[Osiris333]

The problem is the IRL cars have waaaaaay too much downforce. Even trimmed out, the wings are gigantic and make for less than scintillating racing. The end result is the cars travel the same speed pretty much all around the track. Boring.

To me, this just illustrates the problem with the IRL formula. If this were a CC race there would be more lifting, faster straightaway speeds and more passing. A lot more variation all the way around the track. Hopefully they get this fixed with the new formula.

I just kept thinking that contrived or not, the whole show would have been infinetly better with the Handford device.

The other problem is, as some of you noted, the coverage. ABC's IRL coverage is just plain cheesy and boring. Goodyear is boring, Jack-a-root is boring with his stupid up close and personal crap, and the little interviews trying to make Tony Kannan interesting just doesn't cut it. I also cringed at the phoney emergence from the cockpit scene with the confetti and the staged cheers. It was so obvious and so forced.

Give me Paul "whoa" Page and a drunk Derek Daly making racist remarks about Hiro anyday, followed by AJ bitch slapping somebody in the winners circle. At least they're really into the product.

Wish I could say the same thing. It's going to be a long two years if this keeps up.

[indycool]

Too much downforce....too little downforce....too much wing....not enough wing.....too much horsepower....not enough horsepower....too fast....too slow......TV good....HD good.....TV bad.....HD bad......Jeremy Shaw good.....Jack Arute bad.......Jack Arute fine......rules are good......rules are bad.....officials are good.....officials are bad......CC drivers are good on ovals......CC drivers are bad on ovals............Graham Rahal crashed....Dan Wheldon crashed.....

Did I miss any fly crap to be taken out of the pepper?

[Mad_Hatter]

The loose cars being faster because they had less downforce. Less downforce means less drag. Less drag means faster speeds. Even though they had to lift in the corners, the straightaway speeds were greater, making them faster overall per lap. I haven't seen all the race yet (I'm watching it tonight) but from what I saw, the fast cars were twitchy in the corners but they weren't driving them, in a broadslide, like sprint car drivers do. IndyCars are also a lot faster than spint cars, so the transition between sprint / dirt cars is very difficult. They are very different cars.

Jeff

1. Yeah, but I also heard someone say something to the effect of "there was no more grip on the front end of the car so they had to take some off of the rear". I'm not sure whether or not they meant downforce or overall grip from the rear.

2. I thought that the wing angles were fixed.

[garyshell]

The problem is the IRL cars have waaaaaay too much downforce. Even trimmed out, the wings are gigantic and make for less than scintillating racing. The end result is the cars travel the same speed pretty much all around the track. Boring.

Not sure what race you were watching, because I definitely heard Dixon lifting. There were some folks who had trimmed out their cars,


The other problem is, as some of you noted, the coverage. ABC's IRL coverage is just plain cheesy and boring. Goodyear is boring, Jack-a-root is boring with his stupid up close and personal crap, and the little interviews trying to make Tony Kannan interesting just doesn't cut it. I also cringed at the phoney emergence from the cockpit scene with the confetti and the staged cheers. It was so obvious and so forced.


I don't understand the remark about Kannan, he is interesting and a genuinely nice guy. I have said elsewhere that the announce team is bad. There are much better folks in the industry than what we are getting. Where is Dr. Jerry Punch, Gary Gerold, Parker Jonstone, Tommy Kendall, or Jon? As for the cockpit scene, tell me one race in the past five years in ANY series that has not had that contrivance. You act as if this was an IRL/ICS exclusive. Every single ChampCar race did it. I don't like it either, but it is part of the TV package.

Gary

[Osiris333]

Not sure what race you were watching, because I definitely heard Dixon lifting. There were some folks who had trimmed out their cars,


I don't understand the remark about Kannan, he is interesting and a genuinely nice guy. I have said elsewhere that the announce team is bad. There are much better folks in the industry than what we are getting. Where is Dr. Jerry Punch, Gary Gerold, Parker Jonstone, Tommy Kendall, or Jon? As for the cockpit scene, tell me one race in the past five years in ANY series that has not had that contrivance. You act as if this was an IRL/ICS exclusive. Every single ChampCar race did it. I don't like it either, but it is part of the TV package.

Gary

I never said nobody was lifting. I just said the cars have way too much downforce, which makes the drop off in speed between the corners and the straightaway too little, which makes for boring racing.

As to Kannan, watch NASCAR TV coverage. They don't waste any time with cutaway interviews like that while there is racing going on. And if you think Tony Kannan is going to sell this series to America... well, it hasn't worked yet has it?

And I'm sorry, but I've never seen a coordinated "celebration" like that coming out of a commercial before in CC. It was obvious Dixon had his helmet off for some time and was waiting for the TV cue to raise his arms and get out of the car. It was contrived, phoney and insincere, and it showed.

And it doesn't matter if CC did the same thing or not. It was "contrived
spontaneity." It looked phoney, and that kind of thing isn't going to sell the series.

[BobGarage]

And I'm sorry, but I've never seen a coordinated "celebration" like that coming out of a commercial before in CC. It was obvious Dixon had his helmet off for some time and was waiting for the TV cue to raise his arms and get out of the car. It was contrived, phoney and insincere, and it showed.

champ car did that every week. If you watched the international coverage (without ad break straight after the break) you'd see the winner waiting in his car for the signal to get out. Jeremy shaw and hinch filled whilst we waited for US tv to come back from the break.

[indycool]

What bores one fan excites another. Road racing fans and oval racing fans, for example, have been going at it for decades and the arrival of Internet forums for them to express themselves just called more attention to it.

Dixon was strong at some points. Marco was strong at some points. Kanaan was strong at some points. Strategy played a part. Then Kanaan ran into Viso and it was undetermined for a couple caution laps whether he should even still be out there to win it. And he wasn't. So Dixon did. Race was interesting to me.

To tell the truth, I really wasn't too cognizant of the post-race interview because I had just gone to the refrigerator. I didn't think about downforce as I watched drivers try high and low for the fastest way through the corners, sometimes side-by-side. I enjoyed it.

[garyshell]

champ car did that every week. If you watched the international coverage (without ad break straight after the break) you'd see the winner waiting in his car for the signal to get out. Jeremy shaw and hinch filled whilst we waited for US tv to come back from the break.

Every series I can think of does this. And has for a long time.

Gary

[pits4me]

Every professional athlete understands station breaks and network time-out.

It would be nice to hear an announcement team that can actually deliver the verbal integrity many open wheel fans are looking for. What we need is unification in the broadcast booth! Take a listen to SPEED's F1 team. If that's the benchmark, Indycar has a lot more room for improvement.

Bill Adam, Brian Till, Calvin Fish, Jon Beekus, Parker Johnston, Jon beekus?
But please no Paul Page.

[TU Homer]

Didn't see the race, but I agree the IRL production team is terrible. I saw Marty Reid a few times last year, and though he's better than his predecesor, I find him to be pandering more than the typical cheerleader/broadcaster. I also agree that Scott Goodyear is more boring than a remedial math teacher. Jack Arute, who tries to be funny, is distracting at best. He should not be involved on a broadcast team.

Give me Kendall and Varsha in the booth. Give me Beekius, Fish, and Pruett in the pits.

Homestead is one of the better open-wheel ovals, or at least used to be. I haven't seen a race at Homestead since it's been reconfigured. But the old Homestead and Lausitzring were two really good races. Those old indycar configurations on those tracks (particularly the Lola package in the 2002 and 2003 years) were tough to drive. POint, the Las Vegas Speedway package by CCWS during the last race was really bad. Sorta like the worst of the IRL specs.

As for IRL downforce, I think the CART teams that came over brought the looser setups. I don't believe there was much lifting before they came over. There still isn't on the high-banked 1.5 milers. That's why those teams were so dominant over the past few years in IRL. Their expertise in indycar translated directly into immediate success in IRL. That won't happen with the new breed CCWS teams that came over to IRL.

In the wake of the race, the gratuitous pandering toward the CCWS drivers was embarrassing. They did terrible. They were not competitive. WHy suck up to them? Perhaps because they held their lines....but they didn't show "well" from what I read/heard.

[jimispeed]

Give me Kendall and Varsha in the booth. Give me Beekius, Fish, and Pruett in the pits.

That would be nice!! And, have Jon Beekhuis as their technical advisor and racing analyst as well!!

[ACTF_ZETT]

Agreed. You would think road racing fans would've liked that race more than a typical oval race considering it was basically a road course race with all left turns.

Not ture, the IRL guys had to make a right hand turn every lap to drive around a CART car.

LMFAO, sorry, couldnt resist.

I dont get the thought either about trying to make Kanaan interesting....

[!!WALDO!!]

And, have Jon Beekhuis as their technical advisor and racing analyst as well!!

Now that is really funny.

[jimispeed]

Originally Posted by jimispeed http://www.motorsportforums.com/forums/images/aria/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://www.motorsportforums.com/forums/showthread.php?p=453168#post453168)
And, have Jon Beekhuis as their technical advisor and racing analyst as well!!


Now that is really funny.

Can you think of anyone better for the Media Broadcasts??

Not for the Series internally, but for the broadcasts of the series!!

[nanders]

In the wake of the race, the gratuitous pandering toward the CCWS drivers was embarrassing. They did terrible. They were not competitive. WHy suck up to them? Perhaps because they held their lines....but they didn't show "well" from what I read/heard.

Call me crazy, but you seem prejudice towards the CCWS teams. Isn't this the first rabid talk we've heard out of you?

It's the first race of a new combination.

[DrDomm]

Well, I haven't been posting much lately because I just can't get too thrilled about the product we have in 2008 (and probably for quite some time).

And I think that's what many of these posts are about. We aren't happy with the product. Like it or not, but this is a minor league sport (as was CCWS) being painted as a major league sport. The major league motorsports right now are NASCAR and F1 (and maybe WRC). They all have multiple manufacturers, and true competition on many levels. I think the Homestead race would have been much more exciting (for everyone) if there was a combo of engines/chassis and maybe tires. That adds drama, and is probably why many of the CC loyalists had more appreciation for the oval races that we remember from the 90's.

Also, this race was an IRL race in '08, but was no different than one from '96-'07. The CC teams were just gridfillers. Worse than that, many of the old CC teams have new drivers that weren't even in CC last year. So, we're really left without anyone to root for, and lack the drama everyone wanted to see.

Lastly some advice for TG in developing the future formula. You can't beat NASCAR at it's own game. Realize that, please. IndyCar/CART was more popular in the 90's for a reason.

[!!WALDO!!]

Originally Posted by jimispeed http://www.motorsportforums.com/forums/images/aria/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://www.motorsportforums.com/forums/showthread.php?p=453168#post453168)

And, have Jon Beekhuis as their technical advisor and racing analyst as well!!



Can you think of anyone better for the Media Broadcasts??

Not for the Series internally, but for the broadcasts of the series!!

Why him? I know him, nice guy, drove for Foyt so he is more than ok but rather than your opinion, give me facts to why him.

[nanders]

Every professional athlete understands station breaks and network time-out.

It would be nice to hear an announcement team that can actually deliver the verbal integrity many open wheel fans are looking for. What we need is unification in the broadcast booth! Take a listen to SPEED's F1 team. If that's the benchmark, Indycar has a lot more room for improvement.

Bill Adam, Brian Till, Calvin Fish, Jon Beekus, Parker Johnston, Jon beekus?
But please no Paul Page.

Even that spud Paul Page was better then Dumb and Dumber.

[jimispeed]

Why him? I know him, nice guy, drove for Foyt so he is more than ok but rather than your opinion, give me facts to why him.


Well, since "you know him", you could probably tell me more facts than I could, but I've seen/heard his PR and commentary as well as analysis of drivers, circuits, cars and teams for many years.

He's very knowledgeable about open wheel, not to mention a very good speaker!! He has a way of explaining complex areas of racing, and car/race engineering that is user friendly to the average viewer.

But you probably already know all of that......

[!!WALDO!!]

Well, since "you know him", you could probably tell me more facts than I could, but I've seen/heard his PR and commentary as well as analysis of drivers, circuits, cars and teams for many years.

He's very knowledgeable about open wheel, not to mention a very good speaker!! He has a way of explaining complex areas of racing, and car/race engineering that is user friendly to the average viewer.

But you probably already know all of that......

Instead of coming after me, admit it is only because he covered the CCWS. Just admit that.

You don't like Scott Goodyear, even though he won the biggest race on the CART schedule twice because he jumped to the IRL. Just admit that.

Personally I think Jon would be good but not good enough to displace a driver with vastly more seat time in race cars and in this formula.

Remember, you are an expert on racing so you do not need an explaination of the complex areas of racing. The average rube will get very glassy eyed to an explaination of the complex areas of racing. The tuner in will turn it off if it is an explaination of the complex areas of racing.

So what is gained? NOTHING!

But you probably already know all of that, if you didn't then you should have....

[indycool]

That is a good point, WALDO. Those of us who are "into it" as hardcore fans might find some announcers' comments as mundane, or "I already knew that, get back to the race." But the tens (or hundreds) of thousands of other viewers probably DON'T know this or that and may find it interesting to understand it better.

[Hoop-98]

I admit I am into it at a level that makes announcers et al meaningless, sector splits,laps since last pit, fuel loads, these things I try to watch.

I guess they must of had announcers but I never heard 1.

I try to watch a race like I was a crew chief, what move woud work next.

I am not suggesting everyone should, but like I told my wife Sunday as Memphis whipped us, watch the guys away
from the ball.

rh

[!!WALDO!!]

That is a good point, WALDO. Those of us who are "into it" as hardcore fans might find some announcers' comments as mundane, or "I already knew that, get back to the race." But the tens (or hundreds) of thousands of other viewers probably DON'T know this or that and may find it interesting to understand it better.

Actually you got it backwards. We want to hear the tech stuff the rest of the world does not although we already know it. I am usually ahead of the broadcasters but that is just me. My point was for us, it isn't that important.
Remember if you want more viewers the KISS formula works. Like Dancing with the Stars. Make that so complicated it would die. The KISS formula works in the 30 second attention span.

Watch how NASCAR and Hammonds handles it. KISS formula to the MAX.

[!!WALDO!!]

Goodyear, though a nice guy and a decent driver in his day, has none of the above. The time behind the wheel has zero to do with a successful transition to the booth. (See all the failed football & baseball jocks on the air for reference.) Some make the transition quite well, most don't.

Opinion or fact?

My OPINION is he does what is expected. Nothing more, nothing less. When 2% of the population of the U.S. is racing fans and only 20% of those are Open Wheel fans, the 815,000 that viewed that race is 652,000 of RUBES and TUNER INs. The rest are real racing fans. So who is Scott trying to educate? 163,000 expert racing fans or the clueless 652,000?

Kind of like the teacher in the front of the room, he plays to those that do not know.

[jimispeed]

Instead of coming after me, admit it is only because he covered the CCWS. Just admit that.

You don't like Scott Goodyear, even though he won the biggest race on the CART schedule twice because he jumped to the IRL. Just admit that.

Personally I think Jon would be good but not good enough to displace a driver with vastly more seat time in race cars and in this formula.

Remember, you are an expert on racing so you do not need an explaination of the complex areas of racing. The average rube will get very glassy eyed to an explaination of the complex areas of racing. The tuner in will turn it off if it is an explaination of the complex areas of racing.

So what is gained? NOTHING!

But you probably already know all of that, if you didn't then you should have....


Wow!!

This has absolutely NOTHING to do with Champcar!!

This has Everything to do with who would be a great man for the job!!

Seat time doesn't always give you the ability to deliver technical information in a most colorful way.

Jon Beekhuis is the man for the job!!

[indycool]

We get our depth news from writing and immediate on-the-scene news from radio and TV. It's been that way for decades. TV and radio TRY to give more depth with anthology shows but they can only go far with live broadcasts of sporting events. Again, WALDO's point is those of us on the forums might already know some of the technical stuff because our interest is much more intense.

But the guy who's watching a basketball game doesn't need to know how many seams there are on the ball....he needs to know that it's Kobe Bryant shooting the thing to satisfy him. And that's how WALDO's 600,000-plus figure enjoy a race.

[TU Homer]

You appear to have appointed yourself as the resident expert on everything, however if he does all "that is expected" then the bar is set much, much, too low. Casual fans of all sports appreciate the on air people who can bring them into the "game" with insightfull commentary and explainations that, while technically correct, do not talk down to them. It's a gift, some have it but most don't.
Here, here. It is exhausting, isn't it? Waldo should understand that he doesn't have to have a response for everything. He's asking for a link about an emotional response to a broadcaster. The entire notion of the link is based on opinion.

[ShiftingGears]

You appear to have appointed yourself as the resident expert on everything, however if he does all "that is expected" then the bar is set much, much, too low. Casual fans of all sports appreciate the on air people who can bring them into the "game" with insightfull commentary and explainations that, while technically correct, do not talk down to them. It's a gift, some have it but most don't.

Exactly. And that doesn't require race wins.

[garyshell]

Well, through the various responses, that Uncle Waldo is at it again. Once more he knows everything and the rest of us know nothing. I am not sure why you folks are wasting your time on this guy.

Asking for "facts" when someone suggests that Jon would be a better fit than Scott. The whole notion of "facts" in such a discussion is just ridiculous at face value. I and others have pointed out how Jon can do some of the "color commentary" of explaining some of the technical aspects of the race in a way that both engages and educates the uninitiated and at the same time doesn't talk down to the small percentage who already understand the topic. That is a rare trait.

But what really got me was in the reply to Starter, where he made the comment about the teacher playing to those who don't know. Ahhh, we have finally found a topic where Uncle Waldo does NOT know where of he speaks. He could not be more wrong a GOOD teacher engages both those who don't know and those who do and expands the horizons for both. I have been a teacher and a trainer and if I ever lowered my standards such that I only bothered to reach out to those who didn't know and didn't draw in the folks in the room who did, I would be doing both groups a grave disservice.

Gary

[garyshell]

Here, here. It is exhausting, isn't it? Waldo should understand that he doesn't have to have a response for everything. He's asking for a link about an emotional response to a broadcaster. The entire notion of the link is based on opinion.


Yeah, well good luck on the first part of that. He is the self annointed expert on everything. Just ask him.

What was more funny was he was asking for FACTS about an emotional response to a broadcaster.

Gary

[garyshell]

We get our depth news from writing and immediate on-the-scene news from radio and TV. It's been that way for decades. TV and radio TRY to give more depth with anthology shows but they can only go far with live broadcasts of sporting events. Again, WALDO's point is those of us on the forums might already know some of the technical stuff because our interest is much more intense.

But the guy who's watching a basketball game doesn't need to know how many seams there are on the ball....he needs to know that it's Kobe Bryant shooting the thing to satisfy him. And that's how WALDO's 600,000-plus figure enjoy a race.

The basketball game and most other sporting events aren't really a good comparison. How many of them have the equivalent downtime provided by the full course yellows? It only makes sense to use that time to do some of the more in depth explanation of some of the terms and situations that come up during the broadcast. The casual tuner is bound to hear about the car being loose or tight or the terms oversteer or understeer. Do you honestly think they don't want to know what that means? Do you think that they want to just hear those terms flash by and be done with it? Sorry, I don't buy that at all. In fact I think that in all likelihood that a real opportunity exists to turn those "casual tuner" into something more if given a chance to be educated while being entertained. I am not suggesting it needs to be hoop explaining the second sector split time differences in a car set up with increased camber and lowered ride height, but some enumeration is useful. And Jon, has a skill found in very few broadcasters to do that sort of thing very well. There is a guy on some of the Nascar broadcasts who I have seen with similar skills. He has a cutaway car at his disposal and during yellows gives some background on some aspect that has just occurred in the the race. I do not think for one second that he is targeting ONLY that low percentage of gearheads in the viewing audience. He is going for a much large segment of the 600,000.

I think you and Uncle Waldo are selling those 600,000 just a bit short.
Gary

[indycool]

Gary, I agree that Beekhuis is a fine broadcaster for the reasons that you mentioned. I also agree that personal preferences cannot be argued as FACTS. And I understand loose and tight and "stepped out" more than oversteer and understeer because I get those mixed up and hafta think about 'em.

If it's, as you put it with NASCAR's cutaway, germane to the situation on the track, I think that is very useful to the viewer and NASCAR's broadcasters pioneered that. But if it's why the red widget goes into the blue dingushole for better aerodymanic efficiency on the right front, uh uh.

[nanders]

I have a problem with this notion of the "casual tuner-in's." Racing isn't that hard to understand and NASCAR broadcast have gone a long way to educating (bludgeoned) on how it all works. IMO, most people that sit down to watch a race, know what racing is all about and can easily disseminate the subtle differences between series. I will also go so far as to say that most people that tuned in to watch the Indy Car opener has already watched a half dozen NASCAR races and 2 F1 races, this season, and if they know the rules there, then they surely can figure Indy Car out.

If at some point in your life you wanted to be a race fan, you had the "want to" or passion to learn enough about the races to figure it out. Watching racing is not brain surgery and unless you are a total moron you can figure it out in one oval race and one road race. So how many of that 800,000 and change really tuned in to watch the race? ... If they have watched more then 2 races in their lives they already have a real good grasp on what racing is about. If they specifically tuned in to watch an Indy Car race, I gotta believe they know their racing.

If there are any "casual fans" watching, they are setting on the couch next to their boyfriend, husband or brother who's already a hardcore fan explaining it to them.

People here, that continue to have to explain to us about the "casual race fan" underestimate the intelligence of the Indy Car viewer. IMO, they underestimate all race viewers and race attendees.

If I hear the phrase "casual race fan" again, I'm gonna throw up. I purpose there is know such animal.

Note: The above comments are not made to insult any of the regular posters I highly respect and any questions ask are strictly rhetorical.

[indycool]

When I scream is when a director goes to a mundane interview with a backmarker that dropped out after six laps or one of those tech features when there's a fight for the lead on the race track. And I think THAT'S something even the casual viewer would agree on.

[garyshell]

Gary, I agree that Beekhuis is a fine broadcaster for the reasons that you mentioned. I also agree that personal preferences cannot be argued as FACTS. And I understand loose and tight and "stepped out" more than oversteer and understeer because I get those mixed up and hafta think about 'em.

If it's, as you put it with NASCAR's cutaway, germane to the situation on the track, I think that is very useful to the viewer and NASCAR's broadcasters pioneered that. But if it's why the red widget goes into the blue dingushole for better aerodymanic efficiency on the right front, uh uh.


Yes, I think we find ourselves singing from the same hymnal again. (Except, I confuse loose and tight but think in terms of oversteer and understeer!)

The point about the red widget is spot on, and precisely why I mentioned spit time differences due to more camber and lower ride height. (Sorry hoop, wasn't trying to pick on YOU! Besides I am not sure if more camber and lower ride height would even affect split times. I call on you when I need to know such tech detail!!!!)


Gary

[TU Homer]

When I scream is when a director goes to a mundane interview with a backmarker that dropped out after six laps or one of those tech features when there's a fight for the lead on the race track. And I think THAT'S something even the casual viewer would agree on.

Casual viewers don't watch races. If you had casual viewers, you would have more than 800k folks watching the races. Folks that watch IRL races "watch" the race, and appreciate descriptions of the cars, rules, strategies, teams, racers, and everything else relevant to the actual competition. On the razor's edge is the balance between interesting and banality.

The exception might be the Indy500. But that is exactly when a little depth might do some good. If these occasions where there truly are casual viewers are not taken advantage of with a little race strategy or rules discussions or technology discussions, then these casual viewers will continue to think of the Indy500 as a long chase around a track.

IMO (and it's only my opinion) I haven't been able to listen to Goodyear. He speaks with a strange intonation that sounds monotone. He MIGHT be saying something interesting, but I can't really hear it. When he's talking, I ain't listening. Maybe Waldo can let TG know about that.


-TU

[downtowndeco]

All this talk about which reporter is great and which is irritating is funny. I'm old enough to remember when races were not shown live. One hour edits one week later. For me, a reporter has to be real f'n bad to take away my enjoyment of watching a race live. In fact, I've never heard a reporter so bad it made me want to stop watching.

[garyshell]

All this talk about which reporter is great and which is irritating is funny. I'm old enough to remember when races were not shown live. One hour edits one week later. For me, a reporter has to be real f'n bad to take away my enjoyment of watching a race live. In fact, I've never heard a reporter so bad it made me want to stop watching.


For me it is less about which ones are bad enough to detract, as it is about which ones are so much better that they ADD to the enjoyment of watching the race.

Gary

[!!WALDO!!]

Casual viewers don't watch races. If you had casual viewers, you would have more than 800k folks watching the races. Folks that watch IRL races "watch" the race, and appreciate descriptions of the cars, rules, strategies, teams, racers, and everything else relevant to the actual competition. On the razor's edge is the balance between interesting and banality.

Nope, wrong. Ever been to a race? What percentage are real race fans? What percentage is place fans? What percentage are on lookers? TV is no different and ratings are a “scientific guess”. I don’t dance but have watched Dancing with the Stars. There are very, very few fans but the number of real race fans that follow Open Wheel are about the same today as 1948, 1968 and 1988.


The exception might be the Indy500. But that is exactly when a little depth might do some good. If these occasions where there truly are casual viewers are not taken advantage of with a little race strategy or rules discussions or technology discussions, then these casual viewers will continue to think of the Indy500 as a long chase around a track.
What race strategy? When to pit? You think this is tough stuff, it is actually a sandwich made with two pieces of white bread and a couple pieces of turkey, and a piece of Cheddar Cheese. Nothing else, not even cut. No this may be stuff that you think is next to building a nuclear reactor, while everyone else is watching and thinking about their finances, if they can take a vacation this year, or if they will lose their house. This is ENTERTAINMENT. They can just switch one number on their TV and watch an HBO Movie in HD.


IMO (and it's only my opinion) I haven't been able to listen to Goodyear. He speaks with a strange intonation that sounds monotone. He MIGHT be saying something interesting, but I can't really hear it. When he's talking, I ain't listening. Maybe Waldo can let TG know about that.
Look, please get over it. Does Scott Goodyear have a contract for 2008? Yes! Did he sign this contract before you started watching? Yes.
Remember this is not a merger this is surrender. You may wish for certain things like all the money making oval events replaced with money losing street events, but I hate to break it to you, the CCWS, its cars, some of its teams, many of its races, many of their broadcasters are now history.
This is why if I was calling the shots, I would have done nothing. I would have let the CCWS hang. No help as the fans would spin and twist it, just let them go ahead with their season. I was told that there were people everywhere willing to pick up the CCWS. Now they are in bankruptcy where are those people? They are VAPORWARE.
Look I knew a guy once that claimed he had two dogs. One was running, jumping and very playful. The other was lying in the corner, not breathing, stiff as a board and there was fresh food and water next to him. This is what the CCWS supporters are doing, feeding and watering a dead dog.
Of course he lived in Oklahoma and this could be just pure coincidence.

[!!WALDO!!]

Wow!!

This has absolutely NOTHING to do with Champcar!!

This has Everything to do with who would be a great man for the job!!

Seat time doesn't always give you the ability to deliver technical information in a most colorful way.

Jon Beekhuis is the man for the job!!

Has everything to do with CCWS. You lost, you want a man's contract terminated in favor of a person who was paid by the CCWS.

[!!WALDO!!]

You appear to have appointed yourself as the resident expert on everything, however if he does all "that is expected" then the bar is set much, much, too low. Casual fans of all sports appreciate the on air people who can bring them into the "game" with insightfull commentary and explainations that, while technically correct, do not talk down to them. It's a gift, some have it but most don't.

I do know this. Watching this stuff, being involved and having cocktails with some of these people makes me know a bit more than you.

IT IS THE KISS FORMULA THAT MAKES NEW FANS!

Did you take a basic class? A basic class gives you enough information to see if you want to continue, if not it gives you a basic knowledge and outlines.

Did you ever take an Advance Class? A lot of homework, lots of reading, more "lab" work, yet not enough to make you an expert.

Ever take an Honors Class? 5 times harder than the advance class. This could get you a job in this. You could teach or work in it.

You want them to teach HONORS when 80% do not have a BASIC knowledge of Open Wheel Racing.

This isn't me, but from those that do this for a living. So instead of coming after me, just think from those that are clueless point of view. The simplier the better.

[!!WALDO!!]

We get our depth news from writing and immediate on-the-scene news from radio and TV. It's been that way for decades. TV and radio TRY to give more depth with anthology shows but they can only go far with live broadcasts of sporting events. Again, WALDO's point is those of us on the forums might already know some of the technical stuff because our interest is much more intense.

But the guy who's watching a basketball game doesn't need to know how many seams there are on the ball....he needs to know that it's Kobe Bryant shooting the thing to satisfy him. And that's how WALDO's 600,000-plus figure enjoy a race.

It is amazing the depths that can be reached when things do not work out the way they wanted.
The announcers of Rick and Jon were nothing special except they were working for the CCWS. My question is....did they get paid?

[!!WALDO!!]

!!WALDO!! - your posts #'s 95 and 96 in this thread. I've chosen to address you in this public forum as you have decided to ignore and/or misinterpret the several PM's I've sent you.

You will stop addressing the members of this forum in a demeaning way and with borderline insulting tones. Now. Or you will be history. Everything you have posted here since you became a member could, by different choices of words and emphasis, been valuable and contributed to the discussion. Instead, you have chosen, despite repeated warnings, to phrase things in ways designed to antagonize the other members.

The former Champ Car fans on this board are not, and never have been, in the same category as most of the members of a certain other internet forum. Their demeanor was, for the most part, polite and respectfull of the IRL fans here. They have the same rights to post and express opinions now as the IRL fans did when CC was the predominant choice of the majority of our members.

It is one series now. It makes no difference who "won" and who "lost" or how it got that way. That part is history. It is time for all to move forward with what ever the future holds. I strongly advise you, Waldo, to clean up your act.

I just PMed you and copied to Mark. I have been insulted but that is ok. I have been called having something mentally wrong, when I did not insult him I was given 3 points.

I am trying to make points with those that want to twist and turn everything.

It doesn't matter who "won or lost" but you have plenty that want their way. Me I try to use logic, like not firing someone employed. Maybe I am wrong for that. I am trying so hard that maybe I should just leave and tell others that see what is going on to leave too.

[Alfa Fan]

Waldo bugger off. I have you on my ignore list yet your crap still turns up in everyone's quotes!!

[jarrambide]

I just PMed you and copied to Mark. I have been insulted but that is ok. I have been called having something mentally wrong, when I did not insult him I was given 3 points.

I am trying to make points with those that want to twist and turn everything.

It doesn't matter who "won or lost" but you have plenty that want their way. Me I try to use logic, like not firing someone employed. Maybe I am wrong for that. I am trying so hard that maybe I should just leave and tell others that see what is going on to leave too.


Noooo, please Waldo, don´t go away, I will revert anything Starter does, but please, don´t leave us, don´t condemn us to suffer our own ignorance and illogical reasoning, please, we will do whatever you want, but don´t go (specially taking all others that see what is going on).

Look Waldo, there are 2 things that don´t work in forums, one is using threats, threatening to leave the forum and taking others with you has never work for anyone in any forum, it is after all a forum, a place with no real importance, a place to hang around with friends and strangers that happen to share a hobby or a passion for something (in our case OW racing), threatening to leave a forum is like threatening not to go back to a pub, no one really cares.

The other thing that doesn´t work is telling everyone that you are going away just to get other members to tell you how much they like you and how much the forum needs you (specially if you announce your possible departure more than once, like in this case), it doesn´t work because forums are always in constant change, members come and go every month, every week, people who want to leave don´t announce it, they just do it.

I´m not telling you to go away, I´m not telling you to stay, that is your personal choice (unless you keep antagonizing members, in that case I will make the choice for you), what I´m telling you is to spare us the drama and/or the threats.

[!!WALDO!!]

Noooo, please Waldo, don´t go away, I will revert anything Starter does, but please, don´t leave us, don´t condemn us to suffer our own ignorance and illogical reasoning, please, we will do whatever you want, but don´t go (specially taking all others that see what is going on).

Look Waldo, there are 2 things that don´t work in forums, one is using threats, threatening to leave the forum and taking others with you has never work for anyone in any forum, it is after all a forum, a place with no real importance, a place to hang around with friends and strangers that happen to share a hobby or a passion for something (in our case OW racing), threatening to leave a forum is like threatening not to go back to a pub, no one really cares.

The other thing that doesn´t work is telling everyone that you are going away just to get other members to tell you how much they like you and how much the forum needs you (specially if you announce your possible departure more than once, like in this case), it doesn´t work because forums are always in constant change, members come and go every month, every week, people who want to leave don´t announce it, they just do it.

I´m not telling you to go away, I´m not telling you to stay, that is your personal choice (unless you keep antagonizing members, in that case I will make the choice for you), what I´m telling you is to spare us the drame and/or the threats.

Thank you I just forward this on. I teach an internet class. Got 5 people that want to start or moderate their own forums.
Thanks for another PoV on what not to do as a REFEREE. A moderator is a REFEREE not someone that goes a picks fights.

Again thank you as this is printing out. Hopefully this will educational and helpful to those tonight that want to become you.

[pits4me]

We get our depth news from writing and immediate on-the-scene news from radio and TV. It's been that way for decades. TV and radio TRY to give more depth with anthology shows but they can only go far with live broadcasts of sporting events. Again, WALDO's point is those of us on the forums might already know some of the technical stuff because our interest is much more intense.

But the guy who's watching a basketball game doesn't need to know how many seams there are on the ball....he needs to know that it's Kobe Bryant shooting the thing to satisfy him. And that's how WALDO's 600,000-plus figure enjoy a race.

The whole idea of unification was to advance the sport beyond its stagnant past. If the ICS wants to remain the cheesy open wheel alternative then don't make changes in the broadcast booth.

Why can't these myopic diehards take a lesson from SPEED's Formula One trio who do an outstanding job. They provide just the right balance for their audience demographic. Should ICS fans expect any less?

Homestead's announcers delivered a real snoozefest IMO. I've heard better commentary on SCCA, Mazda Pro and Atlantics.

[pits4me]

A moderator is a REFEREE not someone that goes a picks fights.

You should get to know who you are picking a fight with WALDO.
When it comes to credibility between Starter and you, you'll see more support here for Starter. He doen't get off badgering all the posters like the other half of this debate.

Many series have gone through their share of personalities, and combinations thereof, in the announcers booth. When you're looking to increase audience and fan support, the chipmunk has to either go or get less air time. Does Peter Windsor have any relatives in the business?

[ShiftingGears]

It is amazing the depths that can be reached when things do not work out the way they wanted.
The announcers of Rick and Jon were nothing special except they were working for the CCWS. My question is....did they get paid?

Jon is a damn lot better than Goodyear and whoever the other guy is. They sound like they're reading the lottery results! Neither of the IRL's two commentators have that ability to add some excitement or enthusiasm that engages the audience like someone like Murray Walker, and it seems that they can't engage the audience with tech talk like Brundle or Crompton can, either.

[weeflyonthewall]

Instead of coming after me, admit it is only because he covered the CCWS. Just admit that.

You don't like Scott Goodyear, even though he won the biggest race on the CART schedule twice because he jumped to the IRL. Just admit that.

Personally I think Jon would be good but not good enough to displace a driver with vastly more seat time in race cars and in this formula.

Remember, you are an expert on racing so you do not need an explaination of the complex areas of racing. The average rube will get very glassy eyed to an explaination of the complex areas of racing. The tuner in will turn it off if it is an explaination of the complex areas of racing.

So what is gained? NOTHING!

But you probably already know all of that, if you didn't then you should have....

Beekus has done more than CC. I thought you would have known that considering all the claims you throw around this forum Mr. Waldo.
Do you really think Scott Goodyear was a top open wheel driver? I don't.
He should have done an HPI course. He puts his foot in his mouth way too much. Put him down in the paddock and pits for a while to hone his communication skills. Get him out of the booth, along with the other bonehead.

[indycool]

Migosh, guess folks who wanted to found something to keep the split going with. First of all, Goodyear and Co. likely had contracts signed to do the telecasts months before the "blendification." I suppose the first tech violation on an ex-CC team will draw comments about bad officiating...the first CC person of interest to have a credential problem of some kind at Indy.....etc., etc.

IMO, Bobby Unser has probably been the best color commentator on TV in open-wheel history....and it was genuinely entertaining when Sam Posey was his "foil."

[garyshell]

Migosh, guess folks who wanted to found something to keep the split going with. First of all, Goodyear and Co. likely had contracts signed to do the telecasts months before the "blendification." I suppose the first tech violation on an ex-CC team will draw comments about bad officiating...the first CC person of interest to have a credential problem of some kind at Indy.....etc., etc.

IMO, Bobby Unser has probably been the best color commentator on TV in open-wheel history....and it was genuinely entertaining when Sam Posey was his "foil."


IC, I think it is a total over reaction to suggest that the call for Jon to be a part of the broadcast has ANYTHING to do with the split. To turn your "I suppose the first..." comment back to you, I suppose every time anyone says anything to criticize the IRL/ICS, it will be seen as trying to keep the split going. That's just ridiculous. The split is over, done with, gone for me. But I am one of the vocal who thinks the current announcer pair STINK. I could care less if they have an iron clad contract, or not. That doesn't make their performance any better, nor would it prevent adding a third voice (Jon maybe????) to the booth. They did so last year with Rusty, didn't they?

And don't get me started about the Unser/Posey paring. Bobby was great, Sam was an IDIOT as an announcer when paired with Bobby. (I like Sam a lot, and enjoyed his commentary immensely in some of his other endeavors. But his bickering with Bobby, was for me way out of place.) Their banter was not entertaining, it was a HUGE distraction. My wife and I both used to yell at the TV, "Oh Sam, just shut the hell up". Actually, the expletive was a tad more "colorful".

Gary

[indycool]

Whoops, you may be right but it does seem that it's going that way, judging by who's posting what.

Okay, guess we disagree on the Unser-Posey pairing. I thought they were entertaining. And yes, Posey did a great job on other stuff, particularly the Iditarod up in Alaska.

And regardless of whoever's working with him, I've always thought Bob Jenkins was the best anchor announcer in racing.

[nanders]

Noooo, please Waldo, don´t go away, I will revert anything Starter does, but please, don´t leave us, don´t condemn us to suffer our own ignorance and illogical reasoning, please, we will do whatever you want, but don´t go (specially taking all others that see what is going on).

Look Waldo, there are 2 things that don´t work in forums, one is using threats, threatening to leave the forum and taking others with you has never work for anyone in any forum, it is after all a forum, a place with no real importance, a place to hang around with friends and strangers that happen to share a hobby or a passion for something (in our case OW racing), threatening to leave a forum is like threatening not to go back to a pub, no one really cares.

The other thing that doesn´t work is telling everyone that you are going away just to get other members to tell you how much they like you and how much the forum needs you (specially if you announce your possible departure more than once, like in this case), it doesn´t work because forums are always in constant change, members come and go every month, every week, people who want to leave don´t announce it, they just do it.

I´m not telling you to go away, I´m not telling you to stay, that is your personal choice (unless you keep antagonizing members, in that case I will make the choice for you), what I´m telling you is to spare us the drama and/or the threats.

Is Waldoworld getting uglier?

[!!WALDO!!]

Maybe Firestone should be dropped in favor of Bridgestone.

I am starting to see the "light". I think that all the DP01s needed to get to St Petersburg right now. A car that has so much experience and history needs to be use. Get rid of Honda in favor of Cosworth. That engine is state of the art and is as good as it gets. Get rid of any driver that raced in CART that jumped to the IRL in favor of any Atlantic driver. No more Kanaan, Helio, hello squid. Dump the ABC contract and its paid talent in favor of the greatest announcing crew that the CCWS could buy.
While we are at it. Let's drop Kansas, Indianapolis, Texas (Real Men won't race there), Watkins Glen, Nashville, Kentucky, Sonoma, Chicago. Replace them with Houston, (Not too late), Laguna Seca, Portland, Cleveland, Toronto, St Jovite, Michigan, Fontana, Assen, Brands Hatch. Keep Milwaukee, Edmonton, Belle Isle, Surfer's. Now there is an Indy Car Circuit.

Wait, they aren't racing at Indy under this. Oh well, that doesn't matter. We can call them Champ Cars. All 300,000,000 in this country knows what a Champ Car is. Many have one in their driveway as their second car.

I guess this will make more sense since one has money and one went broke that the one with money follows the exact path of the one that went broke otherwise there could be no peace. Only way there can be peace is if the people who's series is gone gets to be in charge.

Then there will be dancing in the streets and fireworks and attacking all those that disagree with ball bats.

3 years from now, we will go through this all again.

[BenRoethig]

Maybe Firestone should be dropped in favor of Bridgestone.

Not likely. The reason the Bridgestone brand was used in Champ Car because both the drivers and fan base were becoming more international. The Bridgestone brand doesn't have anywhere near the name recognition in North America that Firestone does.

[!!WALDO!!]

Not likely. The reason the Bridgestone brand was used in Champ Car because both the drivers and fan base were becoming more international. The Bridgestone brand doesn't have anywhere near the name recognition in North America that Firestone does.

A JOKE. We have DEMANDED that the Formula be changed, now. Races be changed, now. The announce be changed, now. What next, tires?

See the 500 from 1922 to 1966 was won by Firestone. (I could not ask you this in a question form as you may not know, thanks to those sitting on my head.)

Actually according to Bridgestone, they want to use that name World Wide and Firestone in the U.S. as Harvey Firestone's Empire was an Akron, OH company with a long connection to American Racing. So Bidgestone is used now internationally but since there are those that want WORLD SERIES brought into the FORMULA then BRIDGESTONE becomes viable again.

[garyshell]

Whoops, you may be right but it does seem that it's going that way, judging by who's posting what.

Okay, guess we disagree on the Unser-Posey pairing. I thought they were entertaining. And yes, Posey did a great job on other stuff, particularly the Iditarod up in Alaska.

And regardless of whoever's working with him, I've always thought Bob Jenkins was the best anchor announcer in racing.


Jenkins is great. So are you now joining our ranks and saying he should replace someone in the booth? <big ol' grin>

I heard some car stuff that Posey did that was GREAT. It was some documentary/historical pieces but I can't remember the particulars. Didn't he also help out one year at Barrett Jackson? I know Alan Decadenet (spelling?) did. He was GREAT and his "by design"series is second to none!

Gary

[indycool]

Didn't see the car stuff Sam did, but met him....genuinely nice guy....and like I said, he did a fine job on a sled-dog race for several years....he acted like he studied up real well for that one and sounded authoritative.

I have no idea what goes into naming announcers between the network and the IRL, but it isn't the first time I've said I liked Jenkins as THE top-quality anchor announcer. (big ol' grin)

[Breeze]

Holy crap, what's the world coming to? Indycool and garyshell are agreeing with one another!! :eek: :D Should we blame Kevin or Tony? Or Gerry?

[nanders]

Holy crap, what's the world coming to? Indycool and garyshell are agreeing with one another!! :eek: :D Should we blame Kevin or Tony? Or Gerry?

They're all to blame! Robin Miller too.

[jarrambide]

Holy crap, what's the world coming to? Indycool and garyshell are agreeing with one another!! :eek: :D Should we blame Kevin or Tony? Or Gerry?
You guys are so gullible, indycool and Garyshell are the same person, I know, they have the same I.P. Address. :D

[nanders]

You guys are so gullible, indycool and Garyshell are the same person, I know, they have the same I.P. Address. :D

How's about when they used to argue? Is it's mental health improving?

[indycool]

If Gary and I have the same I.P. address, there's something totally amiss in cyberspace.....we are indeed two separate folks. And yeah, we argued pretty good for quite awhile. Then we started agreeing and it scared both of us. Now we're agreeing more often, the series have blended and I can't speak for Gary, but I'm much more comfortable with it. :) :)

[pits4me]

Maybe Firestone should be dropped in favor of Bridgestone.

I am starting to see the "light"............

3 years from now, we will go through this all again.

Geeeez. Constructive critiscm about the ICS announcers and all hell breaks loose. CART/CC fans did their share of grumbling if they didn't like the color commentary back then either. If you want to keeo eye balls on the TV, PLEASE step up the program ABC/ESPN.

[tbyars]

You guys are so gullible, indycool and Garyshell are the same person, I know, they have the same I.P. Address. :D

Un-uha. No they are not. I've argued with Gary before and he knows words IC doesn't! :D

[jarrambide]

If Gary and I have the same I.P. address, there's something totally amiss in cyberspace.....we are indeed two separate folks. And yeah, we argued pretty good for quite awhile. Then we started agreeing and it scared both of us. Now we're agreeing more often, the series have blended and I can't speak for Gary, but I'm much more comfortable with it. :) :)

2 different personalities is not the same as 2 separate folks :D

Tbyars, the thing is that the different personalities have different ways of expressing themselves.

[Cart750hp]

2 different personalities is not the same as 2 separate folks :D

Tbyars, the thing is that the different personalities have different ways of expressing themselves.

Are you telling tbyars and some of us here that some folks here have what they call D.I.D or a Bipolar thing? Tell me you are being sarcastic, Jose.

[garyshell]

If Gary and I have the same I.P. address, there's something totally amiss in cyberspace.....we are indeed two separate folks. And yeah, we argued pretty good for quite awhile. Then we started agreeing and it scared both of us. Now we're agreeing more often, the series have blended and I can't speak for Gary, but I'm much more comfortable with it. :) :)


I am the walrus. Koo, koo, katchoo.

Gary

[garyshell]

2 different personalities is not the same as 2 separate folks :D

Yes, it is.
No, it's not. :bounce:

Yes, it is.
No, it's not. :bounce:

Yes, it is.
No, it's not. :bounce:


Yes, it is.
No, it's not. :bounce:


My brain hurts.

Gary

[garyshell]

If Gary and I have the same I.P. address, there's something totally amiss in cyberspace.....we are indeed two separate folks. And yeah, we argued pretty good for quite awhile. Then we started agreeing and it scared both of us. Now we're agreeing more often, the series have blended and I can't speak for Gary, but I'm much more comfortable with it. :) :)

Yes, but even WHEN we argued, we still did have things we agreed about and readily admitted such.

I've had my run-ins with more than one person on this forum and save for one person (and I bet you can all guess who that is) I have come to terms with every single one of them. We have all either agreed to disagree, or agreed that we had found some common ground. One party or the other in these tete-a-tetes has typically reached out via PM to be sure that the other realized it was NOT personal. And it worked.

IC and I are trying to arrange an outing at a local go-kart track in Indy for any and all comers from this board. I want to see if we can convince tamburello to fly in for that. I hear he has some aero tricks up his sleeve. As some of you no doubt remember, he and I seriously butted heads. But a short time latter we teamed up in a racing simulation game.

I've seen the same thing occur here with other folks too. We are all passionate about this sport. We wouldn't spend so much time here if we weren't. That passion hangs in the air. If we were all sitting around in a bar having these EXACT same conversations things would be VERY different. Without the visual cues of body language and inflection of voice we are at a severe disadvantage.

Gary

[Ruben Barrios]

When you don't know or like any of the top contendrs... it becomes boring... for us Champcar fans this is going to be a long journey...

[indycool]

I don't know, Ruben. Wilson was quickest in the first practice today. Rahal, Servia, Junqueira and Power gave a decent account of themselves. They are no longer CC drivers. They are Indycar drivers. If you decide you don't like half of 'em or don't want to know half of 'em because of the split, it's your privilege.

And Bernoldi, Moraes, Perera and Viso are just as new to ex-CC fans as Howard and Mutoh are to Indycar fans as far as knowing them is concerned.

[pits4me]

When you don't know or like any of the top contendrs... it becomes boring... for us Champcar fans this is going to be a long journey...

Even worse Ruben, the guys many followed went to NASCAR.

[jimispeed]

When you don't know or like any of the top contendrs... it becomes boring... for us Champcar fans this is going to be a long journey...


Most of Indycar's top Contenders were in CART/Champcar!!!

[BenRoethig]

Even worse Ruben, the guys many followed went to NASCAR.

Don't be surprised if they're back in the not too distant future.

[indycool]

jimispeed, think you better look at your statement again.

Dan Wheldon and Scott Dixon (Ganassi), Hideki Mutoh, Danica Patrick and Marco Andretti (AGR), Ryan Briscoe (Penske) and Vitor Meira (Panther) never ran a CART OR CC race.

Tony Kanaan (AGR) and Helio Castroneves (Penske) ran CART races but did not run CC races.

[BenRoethig]

Dixon ran for Pacwest for 2 seasons before going to the IRL.

[indycool]

Okay, Ben, I stand corrected on that one.

[nanders]

Yes, it is.
No, it's not. :bounce:

Yes, it is.
No, it's not. :bounce:

Yes, it is.
No, it's not. :bounce:


Yes, it is.
No, it's not. :bounce:


My brain hurts.

Gary

It's okay to talk to yourself and it's even okay to answer yourself. It's when you go "huh?" is when you need to worry.

[jarrambide]

Okay, Ben, I stand corrected on that one.


Guys, guys, guys.

There are no CC drivers (technically there will be CC drivers in California in the near future, but you know what I´m trying to state), there are only IndyCar drivers, everyone in a car tomorrow is an IndyCar driver, pick whoever you prefer to support and pick whoever you prefer to hate (I lost those 2 guys, Bourdais and PT, but at least I can stil watch Bourdais, PT I will have to wait to hate him/love him).

Personally I´m rooting for Kanaan, I used to work for 7-Eleven and when Kanaan used the 7-Eleven colors a long time I decided to support the guy, and I loved the fact the crying one had cars 7 and 11.

I´m still trying to pick who to hate, give me a couple of weeks, I will find one.

On the meantime I will watch 2 races this weekend.

[garyshell]

It's okay to talk to yourself and it's even okay to answer yourself. It's when you go "huh?" is when you need to worry.


"Huh?" Uh, oh. Some one call the men in the little white coats....

Gary

[jarrambide]

Okay, Ben, I stand corrected on that one.


Guys, guys, guys.

There are no CC drivers (technically there will be CC drivers in California in the near future, but you know what I´m trying to state), there are only IndyCar drivers, everyone in a car tomorrow is an IndyCar driver, pick whoever you prefer to support and pick whoever you prefer to hate (I lost those 2 guys, Bourdais and PT, but at least I can stil watch Bourdais, PT I will have to wait to hate him/love him).

Personally I´m rooting for Kanaan, I used to work for 7-Eleven and when Kanaan used the 7-Eleven colors a long time I decided to support the guy, and I loved the fact the crying one had cars 7 and 11.

I´m still trying to pick who to hate, give me a couple of weeks, I will find one.

On the meantime I will watch 2 races this weekend.