Gasoline???

[luvracin]

See attached link.

http://www.abc.net.au/news/newsitems/200701/s1828320.htm

It's wrong isn't it?? Indycars have been running on METHANOL, NOT Gasoline.

[grungex]

You are correct.

[Jonesi]

Yes they have been using Menthanol since the 60s. (There was a famous oops story circulated during the first gas crisis. Some official from DOT contacted IMS asking them to conserve gasoline and drop 100 miles from Indy 500. They responded we haven't used any gas for a decade.)

[millencolin]

its the ABC ... (Australian version not the yank one), they wouldnt know what the IRL is, they probably think the 'indycar series' is champcar... so take any errors from them with a grain of salt

[Mark in Oshawa]

this year, the IRL is going to Ethanol. No real difference really. Still the same issue with the invisible flame if it catchs fire but hey, water puts it out too.

I love the DOT idiot trying to take 100 miles off the 500. Typical bloody bureaucrat, thinking 33 cars on a race track would make a difference. Also him not knowing what the cars burned. With great minds like that (every country has them) I am shocked we have evolved past the invention of the wheel.....

[ZzZzZz]

Typical bloody bureaucrat, thinking 33 cars on a race track would make a difference.


The NFL is responsible for much more fuel consumption than racing in the U.S.

[Mark in Oshawa]

Z man, you have that right. Have you also noticed that the Hollywood types who think nothing about telling us about the evils of global warming and how green they are when they show up a the Academy Awards in their Prius think nothing of chartering private jets???

Hypocracy has always been alive and well in the people looking for everyone else to cut back...

[indycool]

This seems to be the time of year people get confused writing about things they know nothing about. The Arizona Business Journal reported that the Phoenix CC race would be "the first major race" not using gasoline, lessening "carbon dioxide emissions." Dumb and dumber.

[Phoenixent]

Yes they have been using Menthanol since the 60s. (There was a famous oops story circulated during the first gas crisis. Some official from DOT contacted IMS asking them to conserve gasoline and drop 100 miles from Indy 500. They responded we haven't used any gas for a decade.)


Funny I was just read about that. It was supposed to be exclusive use of methanol after Sachs-MacDonald crash. But it seems that USAC would look the other way on the use of gasoline until the first gas crisis. But during and after enforced it's use 100%.

The other funny thing is why didn't DOT call NASCAR to shorten the Daytona 500 or the Coca-Cola 600? Seems weird but that the government for you.

[Mark]

The trucks driving between each venue and the flights taken, add up to far more fuel than used by the cars themselves. That applies to all major race series.

[Alexamateo]

The other funny thing is why didn't DOT call NASCAR to shorten the Daytona 500 or the Coca-Cola 600? Seems weird but that the government for you.

Phoenix

Nascar did shorten races that year. For example, in the Daytona 500, the first 20 laps are listed as not scored, with the race starting on lap 21, so technically it was the Daytona 450 or 10% shortened. A quick glance indicates races were shortened at least through the first half of the year, but the second half races were full distance.

[ZzZzZz]

The trucks driving between each venue and the flights taken, add up to far more fuel than used by the cars themselves. That applies to all major race series.


That's why the NFL uses more gas.

[call_me_andrew]

Well there is a grain of truth involved. The methanol used was derrived from petrolium. Other than that, they're just retarded.

[coolhand]

Well there is a grain of truth involved. The methanol used was derrived from petrolium. Other than that, they're just retarded.

It was my understanding that Methanol is a chemicaly produced industrial solvent also used in motor racing.

[beachbum]

Currently, the process to create Ethanol uses almost as much petroleum product as the ethanol replaces, at least in the US. You have to consider the fertilizers (petroleum based), the equipment to plant and harvest, and the cost of conversion. The other issue is that it currently uses products that are also used for food. Make more ethanol, have less food. It is as much a political and marketing ploy as any real energy savings.

While there are efforts to make the processes more efficient, so far they haven't been very successful. But it sounds "green"

[grungex]

Archer Daniels Midland is pretty happy about it.

[BoilerIMS]

It was my understanding that Methanol is a chemicaly produced industrial solvent also used in motor racing.

Methanol is a single-carbon alcohol that may be produced by exclusively chemical means (a series of chemical reactions that usually starts with methane) or biological reactions (usually a bacteria that ferments cellulose or some other carbohydrate). Efficient, scalable biological production of methanol is something of a holy grail since it would provide a simple method of producing a clean fuel that does not originate with petroleum. At present, though, it is a lot easier to use the chemical route.

[Bob Riebe]

Methanol is a single-carbon alcohol that may be produced by exclusively chemical means (a series of chemical reactions that usually starts with methane) or biological reactions (usually a bacteria that ferments cellulose or some other carbohydrate). Efficient, scalable biological production of methanol is something of a holy grail since it would provide a simple method of producing a clean fuel that does not originate with petroleum. At present, though, it is a lot easier to use the chemical route.Alcohol IS NOT a clean fuel, it merely produces different percentages of pollutants.
Bob

[Easy Drifter]

Current methods of production of methanol also consumes huge amounts of water. This is becoming a problem in Indiana and partially why a new plant in Barrie, On. has not proceeded. I expect the water could be recovered and reused but this would add to the cost of production.

[BoilerIMS]

Alcohol IS NOT a clean fuel, it merely produces different percentages of pollutants.
Bob

Correct... My point was that methanol could be produced without petroleum if the raw materials are grown and the extra energy available in the methanol product is sufficient for the harvest/production steps.

[ZzZzZz]

Currently, the process to create Ethanol uses almost as much petroleum product as the ethanol replaces, at least in the US. You have to consider the fertilizers (petroleum based), the equipment to plant and harvest, and the cost of conversion. The other issue is that it currently uses products that are also used for food. Make more ethanol, have less food. It is as much a political and marketing ploy as any real energy savings.

While there are efforts to make the processes more efficient, so far they haven't been very successful. But it sounds "green"


You forgot the pesticides they used are petroleum based, too.

Also, the reason the government subsidizes corn is for food security. The subsidy is proportional to production - the more that is produced, the greater the profit. THEN they sell it or convert it and make even more money. If ethanol producers had to pay the actual costs of producing the corn, add a couple dollars a gallon. Instead, they are also subsidized.

A little public outrage could put an end to this quick. It's a PR nightmare waiting to happen.

Even with all the subsidies, Brazil produces ethanol from sugar cane for less, but are shut out of the U.S. market. The economies of countries such as Haiti are in such dire straits because their #1 export, cane-based sugar, is also shut out of the U.S. market. There's a solution there, isn't there?

Still, ethanol alone can only replace a small amount of our petroleum use. A small increase in fuel efficiency would be more significant.

[call_me_andrew]

Currently, the process to create Ethanol uses almost as much petroleum product as the ethanol replaces, at least in the US. You have to consider the fertilizers (petroleum based), the equipment to plant and harvest, and the cost of conversion. The other issue is that it currently uses products that are also used for food. Make more ethanol, have less food. It is as much a political and marketing ploy as any real energy savings.

While there are efforts to make the processes more efficient, so far they haven't been very successful. But it sounds "green"

1. We have a surplus of food. We're subsidizing corn and we're still fat.
2. I'm willing to live with out petroleum fertilizers. Call me crazy, but I'm not sure why we're applying petroleum to soil in the first place.


Correct... My point was that methanol could be produced without petroleum if the raw materials are grown and the extra energy available in the methanol product is sufficient for the harvest/production steps.

Well of course you can make methanol without petrolum. We did that in 8th grade. I'm more interested in what source the IRL and Champ Car bought/buys fuel from.

[coolhand]

I am not a chemist so pardon my ignorance but I was born and raised on a farm and am not aware of any pertoleum based fertilizer. Would someone inform me please.

[coolhand]

1. We have a surplus of food. We're subsidizing corn and we're still fat.
2. I'm willing to live with out petroleum fertilizers. Call me crazy, but I'm not sure why we're applying petroleum to soil in the first place.



Well of course you can make methanol without petrolum. We did that in 8th grade. I'm more interested in what source the IRL and Champ Car bought/buys fuel from.
They buy from local suppliers in the area of the race that is usually arranged by the promoter but what process is used to produce it I can't help you with.

[Alexamateo]

I am not a chemist so pardon my ignorance but I was born and raised on a farm and am not aware of any pertoleum based fertilizer. Would someone inform me please.

Methane(Natural gas) is used in the production of many Nitrogen fertilizers.

[Alexamateo]

You forgot the pesticides they used are petroleum based, too.

Also, the reason the government subsidizes corn is for food security. The subsidy is proportional to production - the more that is produced, the greater the profit. THEN they sell it or convert it and make even more money. If ethanol producers had to pay the actual costs of producing the corn, add a couple dollars a gallon. Instead, they are also subsidized.

A little public outrage could put an end to this quick. It's a PR nightmare waiting to happen.

Even with all the subsidies, Brazil produces ethanol from sugar cane for less, but are shut out of the U.S. market. The economies of countries such as Haiti are in such dire straits because their #1 export, cane-based sugar, is also shut out of the U.S. market. There's a solution there, isn't there?

Still, ethanol alone can only replace a small amount of our petroleum use. A small increase in fuel efficiency would be more significant.

Off topic, but this is why we drink Coca-Cola sweetened with Corn Syrup instead of sugar. :dozey:

Really off-topic, the Mexican stores here are importing Coca Cola bottled in Mexico (and made with real sugar) for the burgeoning hispanic population. Now many gringoes are discovering this and going in and buying the Cokes too. Some local bottlers are complaining about the situation due to distribution agreements etc. I say quit complaining, because you just might have discovered a new market of people willing to pay a premium for pure cane sugar based Coca Cola! :)

[call_me_andrew]

Off topic, but this is why we drink Coca-Cola sweetened with Corn Syrup instead of sugar. :dozey:

Really off-topic, the Mexican stores here are importing Coca Cola bottled in Mexico (and made with real sugar) for the burgeoning hispanic population. Now many gringoes are discovering this and going in and buying the Cokes too. Some local bottlers are complaining about the situation due to distribution agreements etc. I say quit complaining, because you just might have discovered a new market of people willing to pay a premium for pure cane sugar based Coca Cola! :)

We wouldn't need as much corn if sugar wasn't so damn expensive here.

You could also sell Coca-Cola Kosher.

[Mikeall]

ANYTHING you burn is going to have undesirable consequences. Until solar or fusion is practical that's the way it is.

The key thing with burning ethanol and all biomass is the carbon was absorbed recently by the plants recently unlike the carbon in fossil fuels which was absorbed over millions of years. The carbon in petroleum would be better off still in the ground whereas plants just reuse the same carbon.

[Mark in Oshawa]

Drifter, if you could not build a methanol plant in Canada where one third of world's fresh water exists, then it cant be done anywhere. Barrie might have water issues because they are on a well system, as Simcoe is too over used right now, but I suspect Midland or some place on Georgian Bay would be ideal and in the same local more or less. Plus, you would never run out of water THERE.

[Easy Drifter]

Midland, great idea! Georgian Bay is at its lowest level in many years. Matchedash Bay is so low people cannot get their boats out. Low water is being studied by assorted groups. So what else is new. We study as the water goes down. Ships on Huron and Mich. are having trouble in several ports because of low water. Marinas are going broke because of low water and the cost of dredging if, and it is a big if, they can get approval from Oceans and Fisheries Canada to dredge. You also forget that most munincipal water systems are fairly close to capacity. With all the movement north from the GTA and tougher water requirements Georgian Bay communities have no money to expand their plants. Sure the manufacturer would have to contribute but we are back to low water tables.
Methanol/Ethanol may be good ideas but they have their drawbacks. One might include the new price for eating corn at say $10 a doz. instead of $3 to $4.

[ZzZzZz]

I read a Wall Street Journal article (Feb. 1 '07) that talks about the limitation on corn-based ethanol is our transportation system. It's produced in the Mid-west, but the customers are mostly on the coasts. The only way to transport it is by rail and the railways are maxxed out. So, despite subsidies, tax breaks and tariffs, foreign shipped in sugar cane based ethanol is competitive and already makes for a significant percentage of what we use. What's implied is any increased usage will be largely imported. Countries worldwide are jumping in to ethanol production.

[Easy Drifter]

A must read on Ethanol and ecomomics is today's column in the Toronto Sun by Greg Weston. You can get to it through either the Toronto Sun or Canoe.

[grungex]

http://ottsun.canoe.ca/News/Columnists/Weston_Greg/2007/02/18/3642091-sun.html

[ZzZzZz]

A must read on Ethanol and ecomomics is today's column in the Toronto Sun by Greg Weston. You can get to it through either the Toronto Sun or Canoe.


"Ethanol, of course, is just alcohol distilled from corn and grain..."

Reads like a high school paper. Starts with an inaccurate premise, recites an incomplete picture. Doesn't once mention other sources of ethanol. Seems like the main point of the article is that if Canada doesn't step it up, they'll be buying corn-based ethanol from the U.S. (instead of much cheaper sugar-based ethanol from China, Brazil, etc. - remember: no tariff.) So, sounds like the reporter's primary source was a lobbyist. American-style journalism.

[indycool]

I sorta read it that way, too, Zs. Now that the idea of ethanol is gaining steam, the oil industry is trying to hang it out to dry and others are trying to get in on the big new deal. Huge money will probably screw up a good thing in the end, but it'll certainly be controversial.

I remember reading a news release from the ethanol industry after a test which showed it took less energy to produce a gallon of ethanol than it did to produce a gallon of gasoline. That information seems relatively inconvenient for some to grasp.

There's something like more than 50 ethanol plants in various stages of planning or building in Indiana alone. At present, though, ethanol is only 4 percent of the nation's fuel supply but clearly it's about to take off.

I hope I live to see the day when the U.S. can tell the Middle East and the President of Venezuela to go drink their ******* oil.

[Okeefe]

In my opinion, of major concern regarding ethanol production is the amount of water required.

[Bob Riebe]

[quote="indycool"]
I remember reading a news release from the ethanol industry after a test which showed it took less energy to produce a gallon of ethanol than it did to produce a gallon of gasoline. That information seems relatively inconvenient for some to grasp.
QUOTE]
If some one actually said that, he is a fool or a damned liar,but then I saw the source.

If what he said was true, alcohol could be used to power the plant, but it cannot because it does not contain enough energy.

To make it real simple, engergy used includes everythng necessary to produce the product the get-go.

With oil it means starting with pumping it out of the ground and going from underground to finished product.

With alcohol it means starting with the seed and going from there.

Bob

[Okeefe]

With global warming, that shouldn't be an issue. ;)

If only it were that easy - unfortunately, it is my understanding that its production is still very much a serious issue in terms of effect on surrounding local water tables. Thankfully, in my surrounding locale we were able to argue against a plant for its production relying heavily on the water tables' prognoses.

It's ironic to think that water will someday be more valuable than any type of fuel - but I do think that day will come.

[luvracin]

It's ironic to think that water will someday be more valuable than any type of fuel - but I do think that day will come.

It's closer than you think. Go visit Australia.

Compared to the blatant water waste here in Michigan(surrounded on 3 sides by the Great Lakes), my parents back in Aus struggle with timed showers, thinking about replumbing the house to recycle/filter dishwasher/washing mashine water, looking at fitting rainwater tanks, etc, etc....

[Okeefe]

http://www.physorg.com/news69943123.html

Yes, I fear that day will come sooner than later.
I hope the above link works. Unfortunately, the full story expired 15 days after its run, but notice also the comment down at the bottom also where it is predicted that there will be eventually 50 miles of desert surrounding production plants. Granted, that is just an opinion of a person -- but at least people are paying attention to water and voicing opinions now.

There must be a way of searching archives to obtain the full story, but I'm out of time here today. Good day to all!

[Easy Drifter]

My understanding is the State of Indiana is getting worried about the amount of water being used. This is ground water from the various aquifiers that are being depleted. I realize Indiana borders Lake Mich. but low water in the Lake Mich., Huron, Georgian Bay basin is becoming a major problen affecting shipping, pleasure boating and fish spawning areas.

[Alexamateo]

http://drivingethanol.org/userdocs/History_of_Fuel_at_the_Indy_500.pdf

Interesting article on the history of fuels at Indy.

[ozobitis]

I just read an article on MAPLE LEAF FOODS , a big producer in Canada ,where they are complaining of corn shortages and the steep increase in Corn prices .They put the reason squarely on the switch to use in Ethanol production in the U.S. . They say related food products and corn fed animal farming will increase a minimum 15% as a start. There main issue is supply with the switch from food to fuel.

[gofastandwynn]

Getting back on topic, actually there will be gasoline in IndyCar's tanks this year, but only 2% of it.

From TSO:
"The ATF requires that 2% gasoline be added to the mix as a "denaturing" agent. Basically, they make it so you can't drink ethanol because 100% ethanol is really pure grain alcohol.

That 2% gasoline will have some advantages. It makes it so a fuel fire can be seen with an orange flame. Whereas Methanol is clear, the ethanol flame will have some color which is though to be a "plus" for safety. The IRL has studied the fuel and knows how it burns and how to fight an ethanol fire - which is very similar to methanol - meaning water and lots of it."

[ZzZzZz]

I just read an article on MAPLE LEAF FOODS , a big producer in Canada ,where they are complaining of corn shortages and the steep increase in Corn prices .They put the reason squarely on the switch to use in Ethanol production in the U.S. . They say related food products and corn fed animal farming will increase a minimum 15% as a start. There main issue is supply with the switch from food to fuel.


There's a big todo in Mexico right now about rising tortilla prices for the same reason. Of course the reason they are so cheap in the first place is because the American taxpayer has been paying part of the cost. Now the market is bringing the price up.