Alonso Not Happy At Renault[merged]

[IMSAFAN1]

According To Newsnowf1...alonso Is Not Happy With The Way Things Are Going At Renault. He Is Waiting For The Ride To Open Up At Ferrari If Massa Doesn't Improve. He Leaves Mclaren Because He's Not Happy And Now He Wants To Leave Renault Because He's Not Happy. Suck It Up Fernando..there's Alot Of Drivers Who Wish They Could Be In Your Postion.

[jso1985]

link please!

According to TVE international 2 days ago, he's happy at Renault...

[BDunnell]

Here is a link to the story on BBC News — http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/motorsport/formula_one/7312280.stm

Bit early for him to be talking about this sort of thing, isn't it?

[ioan]

He just made it known that he's disposed to take up a place in a better team.
I bet there are at least another 10 drivers on the grid that have the same view about their team.

[markabilly]

He just made it known that he's disposed to take up a place in a better team.
I bet there are at least another 10 drivers on the grid that have the same view about their team.

Wrong.

You lose.

Please send me my money or I will send DC over to kick the blank out of you, if he is not to busy closing the door massa's foot or talkin some trash at an interview.

Right Answer:

Atleast 13 (not counting Freddie)

[Tazio]

He Leaves Mclaren Because He's Not Happy And Now He Wants To Leave Renault Because He's Not Happy. Suck It Up Fernando..there's Alot Of Drivers Who Wish They Could Be In Your Postion.
First of all, he never said he is unhappy at Renault. That is your prejudice at work.
He simply stated two realities:

1) He purposely put a clause in his contract with Renault that if the car couldn't reach a certain competitive level that he has the option to leave!

2) Consequently he doesn't have to suck up jack squat. He is a 26year double world champion, who took both his championships at the expense of M. Schumacher. He's calling the shots. And yes, there are a lot of drivers that would love to be in his position. Unfortunately there are no current ones that can claim to have his credentials, contract flexibility, and talent.
That's reality!!

[markabilly]

First of all, he never said he is unhappy at Renault. That is your prejudice at work.
He simply stated two realities:



2) Consequently he doesn't have to suck up jack squat. He is a 26year double world champion, who took both his championships at the expense of M. Schumacher. He's calling the shots. And yes, there are a lot of drivers that would love to be in his position. Unfortunately there are no current ones that can claim to have his credentials, contract flexibility, and talent.
That's reality!!


Not if u drink enuff kool aid......

[Tazio]

Not if u drink enuff kool aid......
OK Rev. ;)

[f1rocks]

2) Consequently he doesn't have to suck up jack squat. He is a 26year double world champion, who took both his championships at the expense of M. Schumacher.

If Alonso beat MS in 2005 then we can definitely say that Schumy kicked his butt big time in 2001, 2003 and 2004. Moreover we can also say that Alonso will get beaten very badly in 2008 by a lot of mediocre drivers.... :D

Alonso and the whining has already started. And it is just 2 races into the season. What a difference from MS back in 2005 who never once said anything bad about his team in public.. Alonso is a moaner and whiner and he deserves that Renault this year..

[Hawkmoon]

When has Alonso ever been happy? He was bitching about Renault in 2006 when he was in the process of winning a world title.

It's not going to do Renault any good to have their "star" driver talking about "get-out" clauses in his contract. Good way to keep up team morale Fernando! :rolleyes:

[f1rocks]

When has Alonso ever been happy? He was bitching about Renault in 2006 when he was in the process of winning a world title.

It's not going to do Renault any good to have their "star" driver talking about "get-out" clauses in his contract. Good way to keep up team morale Fernando! :rolleyes:

Exactly so. Why would Ferrari want someone like that. Atleast Kimi never whines about the team...He may not be a leader like MS but he is much more preferred to Tifosi's than Alonso the moaner.. If Alonso is such a great leader then why cant he do the same thing which MS did back in the 90's to get Ferrari back to winning ways. MS could have won many more WDC if he always drove the best car. But Alonso is always looking to bail out...

Whenever Alonso gets his butt kicked he starts to complain and whine...Plus he is amongst the few drivers in F1 who got beaten by a rookie....

His career is going the JV way and he has only himself to blame for it...

[leopard]

I didn't hear that he isn't happy at Renault, I think getting back his status that he can't get during at McLaren would be something to make him happy.

Two things I heard recently:
1. He prefer giving no comment about impressive performance of his former team and teammate, while eloquently commenting about Renault performance with some optimism although there are to much problem need to be sorted out.

2. He prefer Ferrari again for this year's winner. :D

[Valve Bounce]

It is clear more is being conjured out of the BBC quoted article than was actually alledged to have been said by Fernando.

Everyone can draw their own conclusions as to what the guy would like to do: join Ferrari, of course.

Whether there is room for him at Ferrari remains to be seen.

Of course, Massa had no results after making some (insert your own description here) errors in the first two races this year, and unless he starts winning, he will soon be relegated to Kimi's on track protector onmaking sure Kimi will score the maximum points against Lewis Hamilton.

His first corner attempt at forcing Kimi to yield the lead looked frought with danger to both cars, and had he took both cars out, he would have hastened Fernando's passage to Ferrari (my opinion here).

To make matters worse (or better depending who's side you are on), Bernie would dearly love to see Alonso at Ferrari racing against Kimi as this would make oodles more money for him.

Now we await Bahrein to see how Massa will shape up.

[Tazio]

If Alonso beat MS in 2005 then we can definitely say that Schumy kicked his butt big time in 2001, 2003 and 2004. Moreover we can also say that Alonso will get beaten very badly in 2008 by a lot of mediocre drivers.... :D

Alonso and the whining has already started. And it is just 2 races into the season. What a difference from MS back in 2005 who never once said anything bad about his team in public.. Alonso is a moaner and whiner and he deserves that Renault this year..First of all I am a fan of Mikes first, and foremost. I felt like my heart was ripped out when Mike's engine let go in Japan 2006! I was pissed off for a month. The reason I referenced him was to contrast how difficult a task Fred had to become the most accomplished driver in the current field. I NEVER SAID HE WAS A GREATER DRIVER, CHAMPION, OR HUMAN BEING THAN MIKE!! (which seems to be a touchy subject with you) He could have handled the situation at McLaren so much more professionally. He didn't! Now he is paying the price.
He is not whinning at Renault! As far as his attitude toward his current team I have no idea where you have read about his whinning about them! This is the only statement I've read that refers directly to his relaionship with the team and his current campaign:
.
"I'm at Renault because we won in 2005 and 2006 and I want to get back to that, if not this year then next year," he told Spanish newspaper AS.

In fact he has gone out of his way to inform his massive Spanish following to not put to high of expectations on him or Renault. These are his words to his fans:

"Take a sabbatical, or enjoy the season for the spectacle of Formula One and not for my chances of success," he said.

His tones in his statements are in no way derogatory toward Renault. If anything they are encouraging, not necessarily complimentary. Simply realistic!

It's early to talk about moves and rumors, but Massa has had two bad races with mistakes and that has sparked speculation," Alonso said.

Translation:

You guy's (the press) have brought this up, not me!
http://sportal.com.au/motorsport-news-display/alonso-flags-ferrari-move-45514

[Valve Bounce]

First of all I am a fan of Mikes first, and foremost. I felt like my heart was ripped out when Mike's engine let go in Japan 2006! I was pissed off for a month. The reason I referenced him was to contrast how difficult a task Fred had to become the most accomplished driver in the current field. I NEVER SAID HE WAS A GREATER DRIVER, CHAMPION, OR HUMAN BEING THAN MIKE!! (which seems to be a touchy subject with you) He could have handled the situation at McLaren so much more professionally. He didn't! Now he is paying the price.
He is not whinning at Renault! As far as his attitude toward his current team I have no idea where you have read about his whinning about them! This is the only statement I've read that refers directly to his relaionship with the team and his current campaign:
.
"I'm at Renault because we won in 2005 and 2006 and I want to get back to that, if not this year then next year," he told Spanish newspaper AS.

In fact he has gone out of his way to inform his massive Spanish following to not put to high of expectations on him or Renault. These are his words to his fans:

"Take a sabbatical, or enjoy the season for the spectacle of Formula One and not for my chances of success," he said.

His tones in his statements are in no way derogatory toward Renault. If anything they are encouraging, not necessarily complimentary. Simply realistic!

It's early to talk about moves and rumors, but Massa has had two bad races with mistakes and that has sparked speculation," Alonso said.

Translation:

You guy's (the press) have brought this up, not me!
http://sportal.com.au/motorsport-news-display/alonso-flags-ferrari-move-45514

AS always, a good post :up:

Pity others read more in others' posts and jump in with both feet firmly planted in their mouths (figuratively, of course).

[f1rocks]

First of all I am a fan of Mikes first, and foremost. I felt like my heart was ripped out when Mike's engine let go in Japan 2006! I was pissed off for a month. The reason I referenced him was to contrast how difficult a task Fred had to become the most accomplished driver in the current field. I NEVER SAID HE WAS A GREATER DRIVER, CHAMPION, OR HUMAN BEING THAN MIKE!! (which seems to be a touchy subject with you) He could have handled the situation at McLaren so much more professionally. He didn't! Now he is paying the price.
He is not whinning at Renault! As far as his attitude toward his current team I have no idea where you have read about his whinning about them! This is the only statement I've read that refers directly to his relaionship with the team and his current campaign:
.
"I'm at Renault because we won in 2005 and 2006 and I want to get back to that, if not this year then next year," he told Spanish newspaper AS.

In fact he has gone out of his way to inform his massive Spanish following to not put to high of expectations on him or Renault. These are his words to his fans:

"Take a sabbatical, or enjoy the season for the spectacle of Formula One and not for my chances of success," he said.

His tones in his statements are in no way derogatory toward Renault. If anything they are encouraging, not necessarily complimentary. Simply realistic!

It's early to talk about moves and rumors, but Massa has had two bad races with mistakes and that has sparked speculation," Alonso said.

Translation:

You guy's (the press) have brought this up, not me!
http://sportal.com.au/motorsport-news-display/alonso-flags-ferrari-move-45514

If he is such a leader then why does he have to mutter anything to the press at all. There is definitely something brewing in his mind as he knows this year he will get his butt kicked by a lot of drivers..

He says that he wants to drive the best cars. Which driver does not want to do that..However why cant he take this as a challenge and get his team back to winning ways instead of talking to the press. It hardly brings any confidence to his team..

[Tazio]

If he is such a leader then why does he have to mutter anything to the press at all.
The term "leader" is used exactly zero time in my response to your attack!


There is definitely something brewing in his mind as he knows this year he will get his butt kicked by a lot of drivers...
I can't argue with a mind reader!

[Shifter]

Hm. I've just been enjoying the spectacle of Alonso's pure driving talent in a lessor car, watching him grab that twitchy, ugly ING Renault by the throat and raising the car to positions in the standings that car really has no right to be in.

Why are Alonso haters saying he can "improve" the team like MS? Alonso's only been back in the Renault for two races since leaving McL! Problably he won't, but how do you know for sure? I wish I had your crystal ball!

[f1rocks]

Hm. I've just been enjoying the spectacle of Alonso's pure driving talent in a lessor car, watching him grab that twitchy, ugly ING Renault by the throat and raising the car to positions in the standings that car really has no right to be in.

Why are Alonso haters saying he can "improve" the team like MS? Alonso's only been back in the Renault for two races since leaving McL! Problably he won't, but how do you know for sure? I wish I had your crystal ball!

Atleast he should stop whining about where he will go next yr...Just encourage the team and stop talkin to press would be a good way to start..

[harsha]

i expected Alonso to give this statement....

[Roamy]

too much speculation so early - luca would compare kimi to alonso and kimi would not put up with the move. Plus I really don't think alonso would go to ferrari with kimi there. it is nice however to stir the media. Certainly he has a out but I doubt it would be to ferrari unless they want to run alonso and maasa

BMW is the more likely choice

[Shifter]

too much speculation so early - luca would compare kimi to alonso and kimi would not put up with the move. Plus I really don't think alonso would go to ferrari with kimi there. it is nice however to stir the media. Certainly he has a out but I doubt it would be to ferrari unless they want to run alonso and maasa

BMW is the more likely choice

And which of the BMW drivers would they remove? The both have scored podiums already!

I'd say Alonso at Toyota, reunited with Trulli. Toyota have momentum.

[wmcot]

Same $h1T, different season!

[CNR]

http://bleacherreport.com/articles/14634


having two world champions occupying 100% of the seats in your team can lead to one demanding all the priority because they are world champion, they have more championships or they have more experience with the team, etc. To put it in simple terms: do you ever dream of driving an F1 car to become world champion? You're taking out all the big drivers in the sport like edit itv golden boy, Michael Schumacher, Fernando Alonso, etc. and your team gives you all the attention because YOU are the one who'll lead this team to glory. That is the same mentality that a Formula One driver will have, and with that championship in hand, it just adds more justification. Having two world champion drivers on the same team creates that conflict because both believe they have the justification to be the leader and their teammate should be the de facto number two.

[janneppi]

This season might actually do good for Alonso, he get's to drive races without any pressure to perform, if he's sixth, he has done very good, if not, who cares, it's the car.

I don't think he's said anything that wasn't already known by anyone in Renault. If he get's a good seat at Ferrari he will leave.

[Tazio]

http://bleacherreport.com/articles/14634
You’re quoting a blog. Another words non professional journalists"Just Like Us"
That is one opinion. An opinion conventionally held by a lot of F1 enthusiasts and insiders as well.
I personally don't think that anyone can predict such a general and sweeping conclusion
of what would happen if you put two consummate pro's like Kimi, and Fred on the same team.
Personally I'd like to find out. More likely the team sponsors would have more to lose than the fans.
It's considered an outrages Idea. An anarchist's dream. That's exactly why I like it. ;)

[ShiftingGears]

Good to see Alonso in a second rate car without TC. Points well earned at both grands prix so far.

As for him not being happy at Renault, which clearly wasn't going to be the best car...who didn't see that coming?

[Valve Bounce]

Atleast he should stop whining about where he will go next yr...Just encourage the team and stop talkin to press would be a good way to start..


You tell him man, you tell him. Maybe he should be more direct like you and keep his mouth shut.

[Mark]

Why should Alonso stress.. he has two world championships. Best bet is to stick with Renault and see what happens.

[Tazio]

Why should Alonso stress.. he has two world championships. Best bet is to stick with Renault and see what happens. Exactly Mark! It seems that everyone except Fred and Flavio are doing the stressing.
I find it comical that although Fred's handling of the media in regard to this
matter is cordial, and to a degree benevolent. Others see it as malevolent.
He has handled himself in a very professional manner since he's been back at Renault.
And, I believe it has been reflected in his focus, and achievement on the track!

[Valve Bounce]

.............and I also think that Fernando is trying to spur the team into greater efforts to improve the speed of the car. It is just unfortunate for Flav (who I never really liked anyway) that while Fernando went to McLaren, the development of the Renault did not keep pace with Ferrari, McLaren and BMW. But I think that Fernando will be able, with luck, to keep the Willaims, Red Bull and Hondas at bay.

[ioan]

He is a 26year double world champion, who took both his championships at the expense of M. Schumacher.

Only his 2006 championship was at the expenses of MS, in 2005 the Ferrari was no match for the Reanult and McLaren cars! Just a littles reminder! ;)

[ioan]

i expected Alonso to give this statement....

:up:

[Tazio]

Only his 2006 championship was at the expenses of MS, in 2005 the Ferrari was no match for the Reanult and McLaren cars! Just a littles reminder! ;) Who was the defending 2004 Champion?

[Dzeidzei]

Ferrari has now confirmed that Massa´s retirement was due to a driver error. there was no mechanical problem with the car (from the German Bild magazine). So maybe FA is smiling and waiting the call from Luca?

I´d welcome it. Would be very entertaining to see another sennavsprost again. At the moment I can only see that developing at McLaren and after last year Ron will not allow anything like that.

[Knock-on]

Freddie is a fast driver and I enjoy watching him race, however, he really has got a gob on him.

He moaned he was being unfairly treated when winning the WDC at Renault, he moaned all through his 1 year tenure at McLaren and now he is back at Renault, he's saying things that sound suspiciously like he's looking to leave them next year.

Basically, he has confirmed suspicion of a clause to move to a winning car if Renault aren't performing and then mentions Ferrari.

He also says Massa has made mistakes and it was logical to consider replacing him but "it's too early" to consider it.

If I was at Renault, I wouldn't be too motivated about now and I confidently predict that in 12 months, someone will be starting a thread entitled:-

"Alonso claims Ferrari favour Kimi" :D

[leopard]

I can't see people who watch the race will start the thread, I am afraid of another thread titled : "Kimi left the track while his teammate leading the race" ;)

[Mark]

Really tho, if you are Stefano Domenicali and looking at your driver options for 2009 and you have two exceptionally quick drivers in Raikkonen and Massa, would you take a punt on Alonso, who is quite unpreditable and could upset the team?

Nah, I'd stick with a championship winning lineup, thanks :)

[OTA]

Si I guess FA would be much more considered by pundits if he didn't open his mouth.
But I'm a pundit myself, I love to see what drivers think and when Alonso speaks he speaks his truth, not some PR statement.
Regardless of the fact that as usual his words have been twisted to serve some's purpose, I love to see that FA keeps being a honest proffesional. Just like his driving style, he's an extremely realistic individual.
Cheers
David

[OTA]

Alonso unpredictable? Tell me one single season where he has not perform to a high standard. If FA is one thing is predictable in both his driving and his personality. You might think that his personality fails him, but unpredictable? Sorry, but I don't buy that.

Cheers
David

[Mark]

Alonso unpredictable? Tell me one single season where he has not perform to a high standard. If FA is one thing is predictable in both his driving and his personality. You might think that his personality fails him, but unpredictable? Sorry, but I don't buy that.

Cheers
David

I don't think there is any question about his driving skill. But will he get on with the team? That's the question.

[Tazio]

I don't think there is any question about his driving skill. But will he get on with the team? That's the question.I think there are two very good reasons that what happened at McLaren would not happen at Ferrari with Fred being paired with Kimi.
First: Fred Knows going in that he is going up against a WDC, and his equal.
Second: And this is much more to the point. Neither Kimi nor Fred is Italian!
The fact that he had to go against the British wunderkind was a huge distraction, and arguably, if you believe Markabilly,lol a disadvantage. There would be no such situation at Ferrari. This match up will probably never happen. But if it did,
it would be bigger than Senna/Prost!
It's the stuff that dreams are made of :D

But your right about one thing If there was one of them that couldn't get on with the team, it would be Fred. I'd still rather see it play out!

[markabilly]

I think there are two very good reasons that what happened at McLaren would not happen at Ferrari with Fred being paired with Kimi.
First: Fred Knows going in that he is going up against a WDC, and his equal.
Second: And this is much more to the point. Neither Kimi nor Fred is Italian!
The fact that he had to go against the British wunderkind was a huge distraction, and arguably, if you believe Markabilly,lol a disadvantage. There would be no such situation at Ferrari. This match up will probably never happen. But if it did,
it would be bigger than Senna/Prost!
It's the stuff that dreams are made of :D

But your right about one thing If there was one of them that couldn't get on with the team, it would be Fred. I'd still rather see it play out!


No the real disadvantage/distraction was what i simply pointed out: the possibility of a rookie brit being the first rookie WDC. And the resulting $$$$$$$$$$$$$ in revenue, and Hamster being the chosen one of RD (And still is as far as I know) which a certain JPM went to great lengths to point out as to what he thought about the driver situation at Mac, very early in the season last year. :D :rolleyes: :D

His comments made it clear what he thought would happen, and so it seems, he was quite right, even to the ppoint that RD was more than willing to forgiver and forget the pit stop fiasco, and make statements as to who they were really racing against (the "recycled one") at team equality.

As long as RD and LH are tight, and RD is there, on the pitwall, calling shots, well, the story line at Mac will not change

Ferrari on the other hand, will defintely present a different situation as pointed out. Very different.

My feelings are that Beemer is the spot for both the team and FA, as where else will they find a worthy, known driver capable of A wdc(and history to back it up).

Quick nick and the kube remainb fine solid drivers, but neither has shown the ability to run like Hamster, Kimi (remeber when Kimi and Nick were together and who went to Mac, and who did not???)MS, FA, and so on. Heck, I am not certain the current Bemmer boys could have outrun JPM, when he was in his prime.

[Bagwan]

Master stroke for Fernando .
He's just added fuel to the fire at Ferrari .

Felipe now has a world of trouble , with the press breathing down his neck . Pressure to perform was already mounting , and Felipe doesn't seem to cope with it very well .

I don't think Renault are worried by this at all . In fact , I wouldn't doubt that Fernando was messing with Felipe's head under orders from Flav himself .

[trumperZ06]

Master stroke for Fernando .
He's just added fuel to the fire at Ferrari .

Felipe now has a world of trouble , with the press breathing down his neck . Pressure to perform was already mounting , and Felipe doesn't seem to cope with it very well .

I don't think Renault are worried by this at all . In fact , I wouldn't doubt that Fernando was messing with Felipe's head under orders from Flav himself .

;) Good point... messing with Massa.

:D : Both BMW & Ferrari passed on Alonso last year... when he was available. What has he done since... that would prompt either team to change their mind?

IMO... Alonso will have to look elsewhere/next year, if he chooses to leave Renault.

[janneppi]

Master stroke for Fernando .
He's just added fuel to the fire at Ferrari .

Felipe now has a world of trouble , with the press breathing down his neck . Pressure to perform was already mounting , and Felipe doesn't seem to cope with it very well .

I don't think Renault are worried by this at all . In fact , I wouldn't doubt that Fernando was messing with Felipe's head under orders from Flav himself .
There was story about Domenicali rubbishing the rumours but at the same time apparently said that He's worried that Massa might suffer because of these rumours due to his "southern temperament" and he would not be worried about Kimi in the same situation.
I'm guessing somewhere a journalist had to make up that comment since I can't believe a team boss would come out and say his other driver isn't mentally strong enough.

If by some miracle that comment wasn't made up, does that say something about the relationship between Massa and Ferrari?

[Valve Bounce]

Master stroke for Fernando .
He's just added fuel to the fire at Ferrari .

Felipe now has a world of trouble , with the press breathing down his neck . Pressure to perform was already mounting , and Felipe doesn't seem to cope with it very well .

I don't think Renault are worried by this at all . In fact , I wouldn't doubt that Fernando was messing with Felipe's head under orders from Flav himself .

Bingo!! :up:

[ioan]

There was story about Domenicali rubbishing the rumours but at the same time apparently said that He's worried that Massa might suffer because of these rumours due to his "southern temperament" and he would not be worried about Kimi in the same situation.
I'm guessing somewhere a journalist had to make up that comment since I can't believe a team boss would come out and say his other driver isn't mentally strong enough.

If by some miracle that comment wasn't made up, does that say something about the relationship between Massa and Ferrari?

You mean that he actually said that and it wasn't picked up by any journalist? I didn't actually see it published anywhere. That would be bizarre.

[DonJippo]

You mean that he actually said that and it wasn't picked up by any journalist? I didn't actually see it published anywhere. That would be bizarre.

Article was in Motorsport Aktuell according to MTV3 story.

[Bagwan]

Bingo!! :up:

No , Valve , that's bagwan .

[donKey jote]

Article was in Motorsport Aktuell according to MTV3 story.
MA are online since a couple of weeks ago, but only in German:
http://www.motorsport-aktuell.com/artikel_1867.html

btw the context of the comments was with regard to Vettel not Alonso ;)

http://smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/16/16_3_166.gif

[wmcot]

How about Bourdais to Ferrari instead of Alonso? FA may not be an automatic choice if the seat becomes open...

[Tazio]

btw the context of the comments was with regard to Vettel not Alonso ;)

That's OK! Never let the facts get in the way of a good story!http://smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/16/16_3_166.gif

[leopard]

Nothing stay the same, I think Renault will grasp significant improvement throughout this year's development while Ferrrari has the seat available. There are two options then but making a move to Ferrari wouldn't be a must. :)

[ioan]

Nothing stay the same, I think Renault will grasp significant improvement throughout this year's development while Ferrrari has the seat available. There are two options then but making a move to Ferrari wouldn't be a must. :)

During the race the French commentators said that Renault is building a system that is already used by Ferrari, McCheats, BMW and RedBull. They are a bit late with it because they were not sure if it will be allowed, but now that it is they went for it.
It seems that is something related to the suspension, and it will bring them a lap time improvement in excess of .3 seconds!

PS: I wish I would have payed more attention, but I was still half asleep at that time! :D

[Knock-on]

It seems that is something related to the suspension, and it will bring them a lap time improvement in excess of .3 seconds!


Blimey :s hock: With the 0.6 seconds Freddy brings to any team, that's 0.9 seconds!!!

Renault for the title fo sure :)

[ioan]

Blimey :s hock: With the 0.6 seconds Freddy brings to any team, that's 0.9 seconds!!!

Renault for the title fo sure :)

I'm afraid that FA's .6 seconds are already built in, so it's only a .3 improvement!

[Knock-on]

I'm afraid that FA's .6 seconds are already built in, so it's only a .3 improvement!

Did he unplug the 0.6 when he left McLaren then :)

[ioan]

Did he unplug the 0.6 when he left McLaren then :)

Must have been in the split-up agreement! He was free to leave only if he didn't took the .6 seconds with him! :D

[Firstgear]

The .6 went to Heikki. That's how he was able to beat Lewis last weekend.

[jens]

Is Alonso ever happy? :p :

The key point in the discussion seems to be whether Alonso wants to drive alongside Räikkönen or not as we know his dislike against having a team-mate, who is "too competitive".

I think Alonso is in such situation that if he wants to become a title contender again and therefore wants join a top team in the future, he has to deal with a top-class team-mate. Outside Renault he hasn't enough authority to demand "right" team-mate. And there are enough good drivers around, so if Alonso has too high demands, top teams can easily take somebody else.

So he either continues at Renault and hopes for their rise or accepts intra-team battle in another team. I guess he must sooner or later realize that he has to drive against top drivers if he wants to become WDC again. If he won't accept that, he'll drive in the midfield for the rest of his career. If he accepts, we might see Alonso-Räikkönen battle in Ferrari in 2009 and why not a battle between Alonso and Vettel in the Prancing Horse in 2010. :p :

[Tazio]

Is Alonso ever happy? :p :

The key point in the discussion seems to be whether Alonso wants to drive alongside Räikkönen or not as we know his dislike against having a team-mate, who is "too competitive".

I think Alonso is in such situation that if he wants to become a title contender again and therefore wants join a top team in the future, he has to deal with a top-class team-mate. Outside Renault he hasn't enough authority to demand "right" team-mate. And there are enough good drivers around, so if Alonso has too high demands, top teams can easily take somebody else.

So he either continues at Renault and hopes for their rise or accepts intra-team battle in another team. I guess he must sooner or later realize that he has to drive against top drivers if he wants to become WDC again. If he won't accept that, he'll drive in the midfield for the rest of his career. If he accepts, we might see Alonso-Räikkönen battle in Ferrari in 2009 and why not a battle between Alonso and Vettel in the Prancing Horse in 2010. :p :This post contains a lot of conjecture, opinon, and theory!
I would counter with
"As we all know Alonso has a dislike for owner's that are back-stabbing
1>!+ch'$"

[DonJippo]

If he accepts, we might see Alonso-Räikkönen battle in Ferrari in 2009

To my knowledge Massa has a contract with Ferrari till end of 2009.



and why not a battle between Alonso and Vettel in the Prancing Horse in 2010. :p :

Ferrari wants to have Kimi driving for them on 2010 and beyond, so one of those two needs to be a test driver ;)

[jens]

To my knowledge Massa has a contract with Ferrari till end of 2009.

Actually till the end of 2010. But what do contracts mean in F1 anyway? :)



Ferrari wants to have Kimi driving for them on 2010 and beyond, so one of those two needs to be a test driver ;)

Well, we'll see. So far there have been a fair amount of assumptions that 2009 will be Kimis final year...

[ioan]

Actually till the end of 2010. But what do contracts mean in F1 anyway? :)

Mountains of cash! ;)

[leopard]

FA has already tasted his hardest time being teamed up with strong driver last year at McLaren. Supposing he has such a will to drive Ferrari which already had Kimi in hand, perhaps FA has calculated the risk and only wants teammate whose talent he has measured off. :)

[Tazio]

FA has already tasted his hardest time being teamed up with strong driver last year at McLaren. Supposing he has such a will to drive Ferrari which already had Kimi in hand, perhaps FA has calculated the risk and only wants teammate whose talent he has measured off. :) I think yours is a point well taken.
I also think there are those who have a certain prejudice against him,
because to admit such ideas conflicts with their cultural and ethnic bias! ;)

[leopard]

McLaren actually was team FA has dreamed about, might be his final destination in case their environment could make it possible. The excitement of Ferrari could be his plan Z, an effort to gain the stronger drive, the only car to bring the title back to him if Renault keep underperformed, considering both Ferrari and FA previously have said their uninterestingness one over another. Nothing wrong with having an effort.

Interestingly FA prefer Ferrari to win this year, that could mean they would tend to retain their current driver and his possibility would be smaller. Seems he only doesn't want to see his former team win, or Probably he has another mindscape that I can't read.

[Dzeidzei]

Well, we'll see. So far there have been a fair amount of assumptions that 2009 will be Kimis final year...

These assumptions are what forums like this is made of. You can call them speculation, wishful thinking, bs, whatever. The thruth is that Kimi said said nothing about his future expect he might like to try rallying sometime in the future. I have a feeling he likes Ferrari and winning so much he´ll be there to annoy a lot of people for many years.

But we´ll see.

[samuratt]

Is Alonso ever happy? :p :

The key point in the discussion seems to be whether Alonso wants to drive alongside Räikkönen or not as we know his dislike against having a team-mate, who is "too competitive".

I think Alonso is in such situation that if he wants to become a title contender again and therefore wants join a top team in the future, he has to deal with a top-class team-mate. Outside Renault he hasn't enough authority to demand "right" team-mate. And there are enough good drivers around, so if Alonso has too high demands, top teams can easily take somebody else.

So he either continues at Renault and hopes for their rise or accepts intra-team battle in another team. I guess he must sooner or later realize that he has to drive against top drivers if he wants to become WDC again. If he won't accept that, he'll drive in the midfield for the rest of his career. If he accepts, we might see Alonso-Räikkönen battle in Ferrari in 2009 and why not a battle between Alonso and Vettel in the Prancing Horse in 2010. :p :


I do not think Fernando is afraid to compete with a top driver. He does it every GP. Fernando got out of McLaren because he wanted equal treatment, and he did not have it. Remember the last 4 races 9of last seasson??? do you really believe Fernando's car was the same as Hamilton's??? remember Ron's words about who they were fighting??? So stop the bs about Lewis beating Fernando. Mclaren beat him to favor Hamilton, and the FIA too. And let me remind you that that is the only reasson why McLaren didn't win the championship.

On the other hand you can believe in what you want, faith is for free, and sometimes blind!

:cheers:

[AndyRAC]

These assumptions are what forums like this is made of. You can call them speculation, wishful thinking, bs, whatever. The thruth is that Kimi said said nothing about his future expect he might like to try rallying sometime in the future. I have a feeling he likes Ferrari and winning so much he´ll be there to annoy a lot of people for many years.

But we´ll see.

I suspect he'll stay within the FIAT/Ferrari family even if he does take up Rallying with the GPunto S2000. I would imagine it's quite a few years away mind you - time for 2 or 3 more Championships.

[jens]

I do not think Fernando is afraid to compete with a top driver. He does it every GP. Fernando got out of McLaren because he wanted equal treatment, and he did not have it. Remember the last 4 races 9of last seasson??? do you really believe Fernando's car was the same as Hamilton's??? remember Ron's words about who they were fighting??? So stop the bs about Lewis beating Fernando. Mclaren beat him to favor Hamilton, and the FIA too. And let me remind you that that is the only reasson why McLaren didn't win the championship.


Cheers indeed. :)

Well, in that case we have a different view. It can be recalled, what happened to Trulli at Renault. And why Kovalainen didn't continue at Renault for this season as he said that he would continue at Renault only with equal treatment - for that statement he even seemed out of drive for a moment. Also last year the spy scandale intensified, when arguably (!) Alonso blackmailed #1 status from Dennis.

As for the question whether Alonso's and Hamilton's cars were equal, then besides that supposititious info like FA had wrong tyre pressures in the qualifying for the Chinese Grand Prix, there seemed nothing wrong with his car. In Brazil there was even a FIA observer in the McLaren garage, but LH seemed still faster.

But hey, all this happened almost more than half a year ago and has been discussed on thousands occasions, maybe we should concentrate on the future now. :)

[ArrowsFA1]

remember Ron's words about who they were fighting???
I do think that comment has been entirely taken out of its' original context and over-used repeatedly to imply that McLaren were "fighting" Alonso all season. That's a distortion of the situation IMHO.

IIRC the comment was "'We were not racing Raikkonen, we were racing Alonso" and it was made by Ron Dennis immediately after the Chinese GP. Given that he was talking specifically about Hamilton's race in the context of the championship situation then it was a statement of fact. In terms of the WDC Raikkonen was not in the picture. Going to China LH had 107pts & FA had 95pts with KR on 90pts.

All teams are split into two in the garage, with a team of mechanics working for each driver. Competition between the two is fierce, and come the race the team is split between the drivers on the pit wall as well. Each 'team' within the team are working on managing the race in the best possible way for 'their' driver. At the same time the team as a whole is working on getting the best result for the WCC. That's the contradiction in F1.

It is quite likely that Ron Dennis was on LH's 'team' on the pit wall, hence the "we were racing Alonso" comment. LH's side of the McLaren garage were racing FA's side of the McLaren garage.

[FIA]

Can anyone see a Massa/Alonso mid season swap?

I don't think Ferrari are too pleased about Felipe's preformances without traction control and we all know that Alonso is going to Ferrari in 2009 or 2010. And Massa would do well at Renault, so could it happen?

[pino]

Can anyone see a Massa/Alonso mid season swap?

I don't think Ferrari are too pleased about Felipe's preformances without traction control and we all know that Alonso is going to Ferrari in 2009 or 2010. And Massa would do well at Renault, so could it happen?

There are zero chances that Ferrari will replace Massa juring the season, we are talking about a serious and professional Team ;)

[samuratt]

I do think that comment has been entirely taken out of its' original context and over-used repeatedly to imply that McLaren were "fighting" Alonso all season. That's a distortion of the situation IMHO.

IIRC the comment was "'We were not racing Raikkonen, we were racing Alonso" and it was made by Ron Dennis immediately after the Chinese GP. Given that he was talking specifically about Hamilton's race in the context of the championship situation then it was a statement of fact. In terms of the WDC Raikkonen was not in the picture. Going to China LH had 107pts & FA had 95pts with KR on 90pts.

All teams are split into two in the garage, with a team of mechanics working for each driver. Competition between the two is fierce, and come the race the team is split between the drivers on the pit wall as well. Each 'team' within the team are working on managing the race in the best possible way for 'their' driver. At the same time the team as a whole is working on getting the best result for the WCC. That's the contradiction in F1.

It is quite likely that Ron Dennis was on LH's 'team' on the pit wall, hence the "we were racing Alonso" comment. LH's side of the McLaren garage were racing FA's side of the McLaren garage.

Arrows, I do respect your opinon above almost anyone else here. But as i said before Faith is for free, and usually blind. in my humble opinion Ron screwed big time by expresing his own feelings instead of the corporate bullsh¡t.

I do not remember Jean Todt saying in Brazil they were racing Massa.

On the other hand about tires preassures and FIA officials, many F1 engineers claimed that it doesn't matter if you have an steward or two in your garage, if you want to reduce the performance of a car you have a lot of ways (engine maping, tyre preassures, rev limiter, and so on). Both drivers were performing more or less on the same times during the seasson, but when the time came, McLaren chose to reduce Fernando's car performance, so Lewis would be ahead of him no matter what. 0,6 sec laptime difference was just too much. And Ron would have never wanted Alonso to win if he could win with Lewis. Alonso was n2 for the last 4 races, and that eventually prevented him from fighting for another championship and Mclaren form clinching the driver's title.

Just my two cents of blinded faith! :D

[ioan]

Can anyone see a Massa/Alonso mid season swap?

No, I even tried with a telescope and still couldn't see it! ;)

[ioan]

I do think that comment has been entirely taken out of its' original context and over-used repeatedly to imply that McLaren were "fighting" Alonso all season. That's a distortion of the situation IMHO.

IIRC the comment was "'We were not racing Raikkonen, we were racing Alonso" and it was made by Ron Dennis immediately after the Chinese GP. Given that he was talking specifically about Hamilton's race in the context of the championship situation then it was a statement of fact. In terms of the WDC Raikkonen was not in the picture. Going to China LH had 107pts & FA had 95pts with KR on 90pts.

All teams are split into two in the garage, with a team of mechanics working for each driver. Competition between the two is fierce, and come the race the team is split between the drivers on the pit wall as well. Each 'team' within the team are working on managing the race in the best possible way for 'their' driver. At the same time the team as a whole is working on getting the best result for the WCC. That's the contradiction in F1.

It is quite likely that Ron Dennis was on LH's 'team' on the pit wall, hence the "we were racing Alonso" comment. LH's side of the McLaren garage were racing FA's side of the McLaren garage.

Arrows, those comments were not taken out of the context, not even a bit.
RD was asked why did they keep LH out on the track given that his tires were shot and that it was clear that he could not keep up with KR. He's answer was straightforward, they didn't care about KR their race was against the other McLaren. The comment was made and reported in the right context.
The question is why he said "WE were racing against FA" and not "Lewis was racing against FA"?
We all know RD is a very calculated person, so it can't be a misused word!
Ron was certainly pulling against his other driver.
We all know the outcome, of the race and of the Championship.

[ArrowsFA1]

Arrows, I do respect your opinon above almost anyone else here. But as i said before Faith is for free, and usually blind. in my humble opinion Ron screwed big time by expresing his own feelings instead of the corporate bullsh¡t.

I do not remember Jean Todt saying in Brazil they were racing Massa.
Fair enough samuratt :cool: Perhaps Ron said the wrong thing :)

With regard to Brazil, as Massa said "I am happy to have helped my team-mate, who was the only one of us still in with a chance of taking the title", so there was clearly a difference in the circumstances. Everyone knew that Massa would be asked to help Kimi, and given the WDC position in the final race of the year that was the right thing to do.

In China, and throughout the year, both McLaren drivers were given the opportunity to fight for the title, and it can certainly be said that that policy damaged their chances of winning the WDC. Had they favoured Alonso from the start of the season then he probably would have won his third title. A whole number of different circumstances (all very debeatable :p ) meant that didn't happen.

It's a shame it didn't because three consecutive WDC's with two different teams would have been quite some achievement.

[ArrowsFA1]

Arrows, those comments were not taken out of the context, not even a bit.
IMHO they have been in the sense that those comments have been used to suggest that McLaren were fighting against Alonso all year, as I said. I don't believe that to be the case. McLaren gave both drivers the opportunity to fight for the title...and that was their mistake in that it cost them the WDC.

In the specific quote Ron Dennis was describing the circumstances of the Chinese GP, and my view is he said it meaning one side of the McLaren garage was racing the other side; not that McLaren as a whole were fighting against Alonso in China.

Just my opinion...And anyway Alonso's at Renault now :)

[ioan]

IMHO they have been in the sense that those comments have been used to suggest that McLaren were fighting against Alonso all year, as I said. I don't believe that to be the case. McLaren gave both drivers the opportunity to fight for the title...and that was their mistake in that it cost them the WDC.

In the specific quote Ron Dennis was describing the circumstances of the Chinese GP, and my view is he said it meaning one side of the McLaren garage was racing the other side; not that McLaren as a whole were fighting against Alonso in China.

Just my opinion...And anyway Alonso's at Renault now :)

I agree that it wasn't the case for the whole year, but it was at least for the second half of it.
Take a look at the face of the mechanics in the garage, how did they responded when Lewis was doing good and how when it was Fernando doing better.
I'm no fan of any of them, in fact I was always very critical of FA, because of his personality, I was even happy that Lewis was doing better than him at the beginning, however in the end I think that he was mistreated by McLaren.

[ArrowsFA1]

...in the end I think that he was mistreated by McLaren.
Well that could be debated endlessly. Was he mistreated, or were problems down to him expecting #1 status, somewhat understandable given his status as 2xWDC and Hamilton's as a rookie?

Perhaps we will get the full story from all sides eventually, but meanwhile it will be interesting to see what happens at Renault this year. We know, from Pat Symonds, that Alonso does not react well when beaten by a team-mate. There is evidence there from the few times Fisichella was faster, and we saw what happened at McLaren. If Piquet is able to match, or beat, Alonso at times will we see similar things happen, or have things changed?

[markabilly]

Fair enough samuratt :cool: Perhaps Ron said the wrong thing :)




Given all his other comments over the entire season, add in JPM's thoughts he expressed, and it is not that Ron said the wrong thing.

It is clear that is what ron was THINKING AND DOING, and it just slipped out before he thought about why he should be hiding his true feelings and efforts from the veiw of the world.

Make all the excuses you want, but add in the points solen by LH 's bad boy behavior at Hungary, and Freddie is the WDC, as LH was the true traitor to his team at that race and then cost his team how many dollars when ronnie blew his own whistle.....................????????????

[longisland]

Exactly so. Why would Ferrari want someone like that. Atleast Kimi never whines about the team...He may not be a leader like MS but he is much more preferred to Tifosi's than Alonso the moaner.. If Alonso is such a great leader then why cant he do the same thing which MS did back in the 90's to get Ferrari back to winning ways. MS could have won many more WDC if he always drove the best car. But Alonso is always looking to bail out...

Whenever Alonso gets his butt kicked he starts to complain and whine...Plus he is amongst the few drivers in F1 who got beaten by a rookie....

His career is going the JV way and he has only himself to blame for it...

There was only one driver in the whole F1 fraternity who has barely beaten Lewis last season & eventually claimed the WDC title by a modest margin of 1 point. What Fred did last year may be considered despicable to some; but we've seen some fine examples in this sport that may suggest otherwise; e.g. accidentally or deliberately taking out another driver in the race or Curb parking during qualifying. Those drivers are hailed as the greatest driver of their era. Extortion may not be as bad as people think under the circumstance. I remembered Mansell was pretty vocal but he was as good as any driver including the likes of Senna, Prost & Piquet IMHO. Maybe he was just lucky & didn't deserve his WDC because he did mentioned that anyone can win in the Williams he was driving. (It's in the late eighties so I don't have a link for his quote). Patrick Head mentioned his manager felt his salary should be reviewed after winning few races. Maybe He didn't deserve the champ car driver's title because he blamed the whole team when things weren't going well the following season. Fred may have learned from the champ & won himself 2 WDC titles. But fear not, should justice prevail, Fred will never win a race again in F1 because he can't fit into the tub like his predecessor & he'll have no choice but to end his career miserably in the state side single seater series. Lighten up, it's only a weekend sport entertainment.

[N. Jones]

Alonso not happy at Renault.... well, no kidding. He must have known that they weren't going to be on top. This is just a placeholder for him so he can try to go to Ferrari next season. End of discussion.

[DonJippo]

we all know that Alonso is going to Ferrari in 2009 or 2010.

We do? I surely am one who does not know this, where did you get this story he is going to Ferrari?

[Tazio]

Fred may have learned from the champ & won himself 2 WDC titles. But fear not, should justice prevail, Fred will never win a race again in F1 because he can't fit into the tub like his predecessor & he'll have no choice but to end his career miserably in the state side single seater series. Lighten up, it's only a weekend sport entertainment.This is nonsense! Fred disposed of the 7 time champ.
Fred has the talent and resourses to "design his own tub" At 26 he has another WDC in him,
and he will not end his career miserably in the states, as his current market value is quite high.
And just as LH is loved In GB, Alonso is adored in Spain.
Expect him to leave F1 for lucarative endeavors in his homeland.

[Bagwan]

F1 is a world of big fat egos .
Perception is everything .

Fernando was a 2 time WDC , and had he won , would be hailed as savior of the marque .
However , have Lewis win , and you have a driver groomed from the word go by Ron beating a WDC team mate , taking the crown , showing the world that Ron's a genius .

It only takes a little slip of the tongue , when the moment is pressurized , and the plan is revealed .
If Lewis wasn't up to the task , Fernando was there for a back-up , or , to say it another way , a #2 .

That was one slip we heard , but , by the sounds of it , being close by in the garage had Fernando hearing more than one .
And his reported desire to keep his set-up to himself sounds to me like he didn't feel information was flowing freely in both directions across the garage .


I figure Fernando learned a thing or two about how to work the press last year as he had a ton of practice .
Contrary to the thread title , I think Fernando is quite happy where he is , and Felipe is nervously looking over his shoulder .

[Valve Bounce]

We do? I surely am one who does not know this, where did you get this story he is going to Ferrari?

Well, don't blame me - it must have been fousto this time. I was caught napping and didn't get to start the rumour mill going this time. :(

[Big Ben]

I have no idea if he's happy or not but I don't see why he should be.

[maximilian]

I would not doubt that Alonso had equal equipment at McLaren... if anything may have been unequal, it would be the human factor, but who can blame (if any!) team members and/or leadership for being disenchanted about a nagging Alonso, who testifies against the team, and essentially brings dischord on various fronts - so why WOULD people work as hard for him than they would for a motivated and team-spirited Hamilton? :eek:

The bottom line is, Alonso made his own career decisions, and he needs to live with them - he felt like he wanted to leave Renault... so he did - turns out it was the wrong decision "for him" - then he felt he wanted to leave McLaren, and did - say what you want about how he may or may not feel in that team, but from a competitive point of view, that was a bonehead move. Remains to be seen if he manages to score more points at Renault than Heikki did last year. :cool: I hope it doesn't turn into a wasted second half of his career, a la Villeneuve, where he just fades away driving cars that aren't ever really tops...

If Kimi stays, it's hard to envision Alonso driving for Ferrari, especially given his record of wanting to be #1 - and Kimi wouldn't have any of that - so why would Ferrari invite that trouble on themselves? They can win the WDC with Kimi, and have a reasonably talented #2 to score enough points for the constructors' title, without conflicts. :rolleyes:

If Kimi were to retire, then perhaps they might take Alonso on, but even then it seems there are plenty of other good options that come without baggage - perhaps Rosberg, Vettel... or maybe Michael will make a comeback, heheh... :eek: Or maybe by then Grosjean is ready :p :

[Tazio]

I would not doubt that Alonso had equal equipment at McLaren... if anything may have been unequal, it would be the human factor, but who can blame (if any!) team members and/or leadership for being disenchanted about a nagging Alonso, who testifies against the team, and essentially brings dischord on various fronts - so why WOULD people work as hard for him than they would for a motivated and team-spirited Hamilton? :eek:

The bottom line is, Alonso made his own career decisions, and he needs to live with them - he felt like he wanted to leave Renault... so he did - turns out it was the wrong decision "for him" - then he felt he wanted to leave McLaren, and did - say what you want about how he may or may not feel in that team, but from a competitive point of view, that was a bonehead move. Remains to be seen if he manages to score more points at Renault than Heikki did last year. :cool: I hope it doesn't turn into a wasted second half of his career, a la Villeneuve, where he just fades away driving cars that aren't ever really tops...

If Kimi stays, it's hard to envision Alonso driving for Ferrari, especially given his record of wanting to be #1 - and Kimi wouldn't have any of that - so why would Ferrari invite that trouble on themselves? They can win the WDC with Kimi, and have a reasonably talented #2 to score enough points for the constructors' title, without conflicts. :rolleyes:

If Kimi were to retire, then perhaps they might take Alonso on, but even then it seems there are plenty of other good options that come without baggage - perhaps Rosberg, Vettel... or maybe Michael will make a comeback, heheh... :eek: Or maybe by then Grosjean is ready :p :
Fred is the most accomplished driver of the current crop!
Your negative allusions to Fred are nothing but supposition and hearsay!
I reject your theory of how Fred would handle being a co-number one with Kimi.
And discard the body of you post as rubbish! Just my opinion!
Cheers

[maximilian]

How very constructive and objective of you :p

[Firstgear]

I pretty much agree with max, except for two things.

1. I don't think Alonso will just fade away. He's proven he can win a championship in an inferior car, and may do so again at Renault. It will just take some time fro the team to come together again with him as #1.

2. MS isn't coming back, not without TC.

[Tazio]

How very constructive and objective of you :p And how pompous, and bias of you!

[ottostreet]

to say fernando is the most accomplished of the current crop is a little presumptuous. for instance, kimi is equal or ahead on most stats. behind by three on victories, but we all know how many races kimi retired from the lead of. im a kimi fan, but i try to look at things objectively (most of the time anyway!), and i would say that kimi is every bit as accomplished as fernando. i would also present an argument for david coulthard, but.. well, hes on the downward slope, so there is no real point.

[Tazio]

to say fernando is the most accomplished of the current crop is a little presumptuous. for instance, kimi is equal or ahead on most stats. behind by three on victories, but we all know how many races kimi retired from the lead of. im a kimi fan, but i try to look at things objectively (most of the time anyway!), and i would say that kimi is every bit as accomplished as fernando. i would also present an argument for david coulthard, but.. well, hes on the downward slope, so there is no real point.
Otto I don’t, because of one simple reason Fred has 2 wdc. Kimi 1
I didn't say that Fred is a better overall package It's the lowest common denominator.
Your opinion is well respected by me. I just think that 2 WDC Both at the expense of M Shumacher
is a greater accomplishment. No argument Just my opinion! I measure acomplishments in F1 by champions, and championships!

[ottostreet]

Otto I don’t, because of one simple reason Fred has 2 wdc. Kimi 1
I didn't say that Fred is a better overall package It's the lowest common denominator.
Your opinion is well respected by me. I just think that 2 WDC Both at the expense of M Shumacher
is a greater accomplishment. No argument Just my opinion! I measure acomplishments in F1 by champions, and championships!


i dont really view drivers in terms of championships. for instance, damon hill won a championship, and while a good driver, i dont believe that he ever showed the same level of talent that fernando and alonso have. and lets not forget, kimi should be more than a single championship winner. at the end of the day, i realise that fernando has two titles, but i would argue that only one was at the expense of schumacher...2006. in 2005, both kimi and fernando saw off michael. fernando has been the slightly more fortuitous of the two so far in his career, because as we witnessed in 2007, as soon as kimi was given his golden opportunity, he grabbed it. i firmly believe kimi will overtake fernando in all statistics this season too.

[Tazio]

i dont really view drivers in terms of championships. for instance, damon hill won a championship, and while a good driver, i dont believe that he ever showed the same level of talent that fernando and alonso have. and lets not forget, kimi should be more than a single championship winner. at the end of the day, i realise that fernando has two titles, but i would argue that only one was at the expense of schumacher...2006. in 2005, both kimi and fernando saw off michael. fernando has been the slightly more fortuitous of the two so far in his career, because as we witnessed in 2007, as soon as kimi was given his golden opportunity, he grabbed it. i firmly believe kimi will overtake fernando in all statistics this season too.And when he does I will consider(and gladly as I'm a much bigger Kimi fan than Fred) him more accomplished!
BTW Fred's 26, and it's quite possible his last page is far from being written!

[maximilian]

I pretty much agree with max, except for two things.

1. I don't think Alonso will just fade away. He's proven he can win a championship in an inferior car, and may do so again at Renault. It will just take some time fro the team to come together again with him as #1.

I hope so too... I don't think so either, but "fear" it, after what happened to Jacques, which still is a bit heartbreaking to me to this day... what a waste of a career... ;(


2. MS isn't coming back, not without TC.

Yeah, I also don't think so :) Although, I still DO believe that Ferrari would use him as an emergency fill-in driver in case Kimi or Massa get injured this year, in which case I suspect he would still be very competitive.

[markabilly]

if you were to pick one driver in F1 today, that just might while at the very top of the heap, walk away with from it all and go snow boarding, partying or whatever........even with people pulling on him and tossing cash his way........who would it be????

[Tazio]

if you were to pick one driver in F1 today, that just might while at the very top of the heap, walk away with from it all and go snow boarding, partying or whatever........even with people pulling on him and tossing cash his way........who would it be????
Takuma Sato???---Party on!! :beer:

:rotflmao:

[Valve Bounce]

Fred is the most accomplished driver of the current crop!
Cheers

You forgot bunsen and DC. :rolleyes:

[markabilly]

You forgot bunsen and DC. :rolleyes:
whooo????

[Tazio]

You forgot bunsen and DC. :rolleyes:
Since you brought up Sponge Bob, feature this:
What if the comments that Mark Webber made about LH (which I
happen to mostly agree with and found to be really rather benign,
yet forceful in the truth that they portrayed) had come out of Coulthards Pie Hole.
I somehow feel there would be a groundswell of ill will towards him in G.B.
From all corners of the realm Royal Subjects would be straining to hear the Royal Decree:
“OFF WITH HIS BLOCK HEAD”!! :D

[Valve Bounce]

Since you brought up Sponge Bob, feature this:
What if the comments that Mark Webber made about LH (which I
happen to mostly agree with and found to be really rather benign,
yet forceful in the truth that they portrayed) had come out of Coulthards Pie Hole.
I somehow feel there would be a groundswell of ill will towards him in G.B.
From all corners of the realm Royal Subjects would be straining to hear the Royal Decree:
“OFF WITH HIS BLOCK HEAD”!! :D

That's not fair. He hasn't had a decent chance to show that this is his year!!

And bunsen is on the rise - just you mark my words.!! OK, I've just suffered a massacre at the hands of Geelong, so I am concussed. :confused: : :( :

[Tazio]

That's not fair. He hasn't had a decent chance to show that this is his year!!

And bunsen is on the rise - just you mark my words.!! OK, I've just suffered a massacre at the hands of Geelong, so I am concussed. :confused: : :( :Don't be. It's quite natural for The Cats to eat your Swans.
Right about now they are probably washing whats left of them down :beer:
Gooday Mate!

[Tazio]

This Fred guy is going to make alot of people eat their words!
2009 @Ferrari Kicking McLaren @ss
http://www.manipef1.com/news/2008/index.php?id=763&redirect=1
Fernando Alonso is still giving hints that his formula one future could be red. In an interview with the German sports magazine Sport Bild, the Renault driver confirmed that his 2008 contract allows him to leave the struggling team at the end of the year.

Asked if he will still be a Renault driver in 2009, the Spaniard answered: “That is not certain, but there is no specific date by which I must decide.”

26-year-old Alonso confirmed that Ferrari could be an option, but denied that the retirement of Jean Todt improves his chances of being selected by the Maranello based outfit. “Ferrari is always a team that drivers think about,” he said, “but if we work together in the future, it will have had nothing to do with Jean Todt being there or not.”

He insists that he is still having "fun". “I wake up every morning and I know that I will not be world champion. I can not win races, and even the podium is extremely unlikely. But precisely for this reason, it is a huge challenge for me. It's like being back to 2004, which is fun, but the team wants to get back to succeeding,” he added.

[Tazio]

And then there is this to counter my last post:

Going back to the drivers, how do you rate Fernando’s performances so far?

"Fernando really is one of the positives and the effort we get from him is fantastic, as is his understanding of the race, the tactics and the whole business of Formula 1. He goes about things in a very calm way and I like that because I think it pervades through the team. I always like to try and put calmness in the team because I think it operates better that way and it’s great when you have a driver who can do that. The other thing about Fernando is that his results are very motivational – he’s not a guy who has to go around motivating people because his ability and his results motivate people in themselves. Everyone knows that at the end of every race Fernando has put in a 100% effort no matter what the circumstances are or what position he is racing for, and that is incredibly motivating for the whole team."
http://www.f1technical.net/news/8654

What have the team identified as areas to improve in the quest for greater performance?

"Ultimately there is one area that is most dominant in terms of performance and that is the car’s aero package. But the situation is very different to last year, and I think that is a point we need to emphasise because last year our aero performance was not what we believed it to be and that was because we had a very specific problem in correlation between the wind tunnel and the car. This year our correlation is perfectly reasonable, it’s just that our aero performance is not where we want it to be, and I believe that is because we are still suffering the penalty of the development time we lost while getting the correlation back. We’ve tried desperately to catch up by starting work on the 2008 car earlier, but clearly we haven’t done all the catching up that we need to do. What we can do now is redouble our efforts in that area and concentrate on improving the aero performance."

[leopard]

Alonso's chance at the red might also depend on how will the current drivers win the title convincingly, if not McLaren the winner.

It said so because last year apart from improved Kimi in the second half of the season it still looked as if they took benefit from duel between two McLarens. :D

[Tazio]

Alonso's chance at the red might also depend on how will the current drivers win the title convincingly, if not McLaren the winner.

It said so because last year apart from improved Kimi in the second half of the season it still looked as if they took benefit from duel between two McLarens. :D This is going to probably draw some heat But all things considered( including I'm a huge Ferrari Honk) Either driver at Mclaren should have and would have if they had an establised#1 Mostly due to Ferrari relative unreliability!

[leopard]

This is going to probably draw some heat But all things considered( including I'm a huge Ferrari Honk) Either driver at Mclaren should have and would have if they had an establised#1 Mostly due to Ferrari relative unreliability!
The#1 status established from this season onwards :D

[Tazio]

Too late now

[555-04Q2]

This Fred guy is going to make alot of people eat their words!
2009 @Ferrari Kicking McLaren @ss
http://www.manipef1.com/news/2008/index.php?id=763&redirect=1
Fernando Alonso is still giving hints that his formula one future could be red. In an interview with the German sports magazine Sport Bild, the Renault driver confirmed that his 2008 contract allows him to leave the struggling team at the end of the year.

Asked if he will still be a Renault driver in 2009, the Spaniard answered: “That is not certain, but there is no specific date by which I must decide.”

26-year-old Alonso confirmed that Ferrari could be an option, but denied that the retirement of Jean Todt improves his chances of being selected by the Maranello based outfit. “Ferrari is always a team that drivers think about,” he said, “but if we work together in the future, it will have had nothing to do with Jean Todt being there or not.”

He insists that he is still having "fun". “I wake up every morning and I know that I will not be world champion. I can not win races, and even the podium is extremely unlikely. But precisely for this reason, it is a huge challenge for me. It's like being back to 2004, which is fun, but the team wants to get back to succeeding,” he added.

While I rate Frodo as the best driver in F1 at the moment just ahead of Kimi and Lewis, if he gets a seat at Ferrari in 2009 or any other time, I will personally get on a plane and shoot the little sh!t !!! Ferrari wont put up with his nonsense so I dont see it happening.

[Tazio]

While I rate Frodo as the best driver in F1 at the moment just ahead of Kimi and Lewis, if he gets a seat at Ferrari in 2009 or any other time, I will personally get on a plane and shoot the little sh!t !!! Ferrari wont put up with his nonsense so I dont see it happening.
I think fred gets a lot of undererved bad presshttp://smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/16/16_3_166.gif



At least we agree about something ;)
[/QUOTE]
Going back to the drivers, how do you rate Fernando’s performances so far?

"Fernando really is one of the positives and the effort we get from him is fantastic, as is his understanding of the race, the tactics and the whole business of Formula 1. He goes about things in a very calm way and I like that because I think it pervades through the team. I always like to try and put calmness in the team because I think it operates better that way and it’s great when you have a driver who can do that. The other thing about Fernando is that his results are very motivational – he’s not a guy who has to go around motivating people because his ability and his results motivate people in themselves. Everyone knows that at the end of every race Fernando has put in a 100% effort no matter what the circumstances are or what position he is racing for, and that is incredibly motivating for the whole team."
http://www.f1technical.net/news/8654
[/QUOTE] You don't have to yell at me I just woke up :D

[leopard]

It would be really strange Ferrari remains without interest in Fernando if this year's result put them as third behind McLaren and BMW, and their driver in fifth or beyond after McL and BMW drivers. They should start considering that Fernando is the Securicor. :)

[555-04Q2]

It would be really strange Ferrari remains without interest in Fernando if this year's result put them as third behind McLaren and BMW, and their driver in fifth or beyond after McL and BMW drivers. They should start considering that Fernando is the Securicor. :)

As long as reliability is good this season, Ferrari should walk it. The car seems excellent this year, its just the reliability that concerns me. I'm going for Ferrari and Kimi to win the CC & WDC by a decent margin this year.

[555-04Q2]

While I rate Frodo as the best driver in F1 at the moment just ahead of Kimi and Lewis, if he gets a seat at Ferrari in 2009 or any other time, I will personally get on a plane and shoot the little sh!t !!! Ferrari wont put up with his nonsense so I dont see it happening.
I think fred gets a lot of undererved bad presshttp://smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/16/16_3_166.gif



At least we agree about something ;)

Going back to the drivers, how do you rate Fernando’s performances so far?

"Fernando really is one of the positives and the effort we get from him is fantastic, as is his understanding of the race, the tactics and the whole business of Formula 1. He goes about things in a very calm way and I like that because I think it pervades through the team. I always like to try and put calmness in the team because I think it operates better that way and it’s great when you have a driver who can do that. The other thing about Fernando is that his results are very motivational – he’s not a guy who has to go around motivating people because his ability and his results motivate people in themselves. Everyone knows that at the end of every race Fernando has put in a 100% effort no matter what the circumstances are or what position he is racing for, and that is incredibly motivating for the whole team."
http://www.f1technical.net/news/8654
[/QUOTE] You don't have to yell at me I just woke up :D [/QUOTE]

Spanish calm and "normal" calm are two totally different animals ;)

(Disclaimer: no offense is meant to any of our Spanish friends. Please do not hunt me down and torture me for my comment)

[Tazio]

As long as reliability is good this season, Ferrari should walk it. The car seems excellent this year, its just the reliability that concerns me. I'm going for Ferrari and Kimi to win the CC & WDC by a decent margin this year.Nail........Head.......Hit

I too believe they are done horsing aroundhttp://smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/16/16_3_166.gif

[Tazio]

(Disclaimer: no offense is meant to any of our Spanish friends. Please do not hunt me down and torture me for my comment)
I hated Fred when Mike was driving. But even before he became Mikes legitemate heir, when I was observing Fred's blurr around Circuit de Catalunya 2006. I thought, that guy is really fast, in a smooth kind of way!
Then it came to me. In order to hate Fred, His performance set me up for a fall. I can't admire Mike without recognizing Fred's greatness!

[Garry Walker]

do you really believe Fernando's car was the same as Hamilton's??

Yes. Do you have proof for what you are claiming or is what you said derived just from your bias and refusal to accept that "nando" was beaten by a ROOKIE?


Whether Alonso is happy or not is irrelevant, I don`t ever want to see that baby at Ferrari.

I look forward to Piquet soon starting to match him, even when he is treated as nr.2 compared to "nando."

[555-04Q2]

Yes. Do you have proof for what you are claiming or is what you said derived just from your bias and refusal to accept that "nando" was beaten by a ROOKIE?


Whether Alonso is happy or not is irrelevant, I don`t ever want to see that baby at Ferrari.

I look forward to Piquet soon starting to match him, even when he is treated as nr.2 compared to "nando."

I think they had the same cars. Hamilton just proved to be very very quick and unbelievably consistant until the last two races which was just inexperience.

[Tazio]

I think they had the same cars. Hamilton just proved to be very very quick and unbelievably consistant until the last two races which was just inexperience.
And if he chokes again this year can we chaulk that up to "experience"?

[Valve Bounce]

Spanish calm and "normal" calm are two totally different animals ;)

(Disclaimer: no offense is meant to any of our Spanish friends. Please do not hunt me down and torture me for my comment)

You think that is bad? You should have seen my Portuguese uncles when they discuss anything over dinner. :rolleyes:

[Tazio]

You think that is bad? You should have seen my Portuguese uncles when they discuss anything over dinner. :rolleyes: Hey Valve is this an ethnic slurr?

[555-04Q2]

You think that is bad? You should have seen my Portuguese uncles when they discuss anything over dinner. :rolleyes:

My stepmother and her family are Portugeuse so I know what you mean !!!!!

[555-04Q2]

And if he chokes again this year can we chaulk that up to "experience"?

He's still in his very early 20's. He will get better and better. Give the lad a chance, I dont think he will throw another WDC away again. Time will tell.

[rabf1]

This guy is an unbelievable whiner and complainer. Shut up and drive.

[Tazio]

This guy is an unbelievable whiner and complainer. Shut up and drive.
And still the most acomplished pilot in the entire current crop!
So put tha in your pipe, and smoke it!
:rotflmao:

[truefan72]

Alonso's comments don't surprise me in the least bit.

Pleaselet him go to Ferrari, you would see a battle Roysl in that team with Kimi that would make his issues at McLaren seem benign.

A great talent, a gifted driver, but a weak character.

[Tazio]

Alonso's comments don't surprise me in the least bit.

Pleaselet him go to Ferrari, you would see a battle Roysl in that team with Kimi that would make his issues at McLaren seem benign.

A great talent, a gifted driver, but a weak character.It's all good!
However your statement appears to be a little hypocritcal when your sig says
"You can't argue wuth results
At 26 Fred is through his strengths, and weaknesses
The most acomplished pilot of all the current
aplicants. Period. Period. one period for each WDC

[Dave B]

Alonso's issued a denial... sort of.

In one breath he says, "I don't remember that clause and I signed for two years with Renault" but ends the sentence with the classic reminder that: "as we saw last year the contracts are always very flexible".

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/66304



Asked if he was committed to staying at Renault and turning the team's fortunes around, Alonso replied: "At the moment yes, because we have just started the championship.

"And okay, we are disappointed with our performances in the first two races, but it is not time to give up now, it is time to keep working as hard as we can," he added.

"And then we will see at the middle of the season or the end of the season where we are and for next year there is a big change of rules it seems, so aerodynamically there will be a big change with very little wings and we will have slick tyres again probably.

"So all this can change the picture again in F1, at the moment I am really convinced that we can do a good job, Renault and me together."

That's known as keeping one's options open!

[Tazio]

Say what you want about Fred. I think his only regret is that he took his oportunity at McLaren for granted going in. Soon to be known as Sir Lewis Hamilton started the season hitting 420 with a slugging percetage of about
675. Then he kept those numbers up. These were Babe Ruthian numbers.
Fred started doing what is called in baseball "pressing" getting outside his strength and way into his own head. Fred was looking superstitiously at his prospects. Something he had never had to do before. The Crash at Fuji? or China? I forget. Still pressing. Then LH has a late season slump like the percentages caught up with him. He was like the old Barry Bonds Pre Steroids that destroyed the league all 162 games, and when it came to the play-off, and series he would hit below the Mendoza line. Kimi got lucky But only by staying in striking distance was he with the help of his cohesive teamate FM
able to knock one out of the park in the ninth inning of the sevent game of the world series. Fred will mever make that mistake again.

[samuratt]

Yes. Do you have proof for what you are claiming or is what you said derived just from your bias and refusal to accept that "nando" was beaten by a ROOKIE?


Whether Alonso is happy or not is irrelevant, I don`t ever want to see that baby at Ferrari.

I look forward to Piquet soon starting to match him, even when he is treated as nr.2 compared to "nando."


Here you have an Spanish interview that can make you change your mind.

¿Por qué decide dejar un coche ganador?
Lo dejo porque el coche sería ganador, pero yo sabía que no iba a ganar ninguna carrera porque ya me pasó a final de año. Prefiero ser octavo con mil personas queriendo que termine séptimo, antes que terminar tercero con bastantes personas que quieren que haga cuarto.

Translation
Q: Why do you leave a wining car?
The car (mclaren) may be a winner, but I knew that I was not going to win anymore races, because i had proof of that at the end of the seasson. I do prefer to be 8th with a thousand people wanting me to finish 7th rather than finishing 3rd with a lot of people wanting me to finish 4th.

________

Do you remember who was Ron's fighting against? It was not Kimi, nor Massa. The enemy was Fernando. We all knew that!

the rest of the interview is quite interesting, here i leave you the link:
http://www.as.com/motor/articulo/formula-automovilismo-deportes/dasmot/20080404dasdaimot_1/Tes

Anyway, as i have said before faith is for free and usually blind (that applies to every body).

cheers!

[ioan]

Here you have an Spanish interview that can make you change your mind.

¿Por qué decide dejar un coche ganador?
Lo dejo porque el coche sería ganador, pero yo sabía que no iba a ganar ninguna carrera porque ya me pasó a final de año. Prefiero ser octavo con mil personas queriendo que termine séptimo, antes que terminar tercero con bastantes personas que quieren que haga cuarto.

Translation
Q: Why do you leave a wining car?
The car (mclaren) may be a winner, but I knew that I was not going to win anymore races, because i had proof of that at the end of the seasson. I do prefer to be 8th with a thousand people wanting me to finish 7th rather than finishing 3rd with a lot of people wanting me to finish 4th.

________

Do you remember who was Ron's fighting against? It was not Kimi, nor Massa. The enemy was Fernando. We all knew that!

the rest of the interview is quite interesting, here i leave you the link:
http://www.as.com/motor/articulo/formula-automovilismo-deportes/dasmot/20080404dasdaimot_1/Tes

Anyway, as i have said before faith is for free and usually blind (that applies to every body).

cheers!

The picture was clear for everyone but Ron's fanatics.

[veeten]

meanwhile, the car is doing a 'brisk' 16th in practice today in Bahrain.

nice. :s

[ArrowsFA1]

Q. Fernando after the Malaysian GP there were quotes in a Spanish daily newspaper where you said you had a release clause in your Renault contract, and that you could leave at the end of the season if the team were not doing as well as you hoped. Is that correct?
FA: I don't know. I don't remember that clause and I signed for two years with Renault. But as we saw last year the contracts are always very flexible.
Q. You might not remember the quote, but does the clause exist?
FA: No.
Q. There is no clause in your contract allowing you to leave?
FA: No.
Q. Are you committed to staying here and seeing out your future rather than looking elsewhere already?
FA: At the moment yes, because we have just started the championship. And okay we are disappointed with our performances in the first two races, but it is not time to give up now, it is time to keep working as hard as we can.
And then we will see at the middle of the season or the end of the season where we are and for next year there is a big change of rules it seems, so aerodynamically there will be a big change with very little wings and we will have slick tyres again probably. So all this can change the picture again in F1, so at the moment I am really convinced that we can do a good job, Renault and me together.

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/66303

[janneppi]

The car (mclaren) may be a winner, but I knew that I was not going to win anymore races, because i had proof of that at the end of the seasson. I do prefer to be 8th with a thousand people wanting me to finish 7th rather than finishing 3rd with a lot of people wanting me to finish 4th.

That's classic Alonso, he doesn't let reality affect his feelings. That's what makes him such a good driver, refusing to acknowledge that someone might actually beat him without some foul play involved.

[Tazio]

That's classic Alonso, he doesn't let reality affect his feelings. That's what makes him such a good driver, refusing to acknowledge that someone might actually beat him without some foul play involved.That and incredible hands, feel, vision, confidence, and an ego so big that he honestly believes he can get more out of a car than anyone else!

[janneppi]

Well, those too. ;)

[Tazio]

Well, those too. ;) :p :

[CNR]

http://racing.auto123.com/en/racing/news/index,view.spy?artid=96241


Fernando Alonso says he left McLaren at the end of 2007 because he knew his winning days for the team were over.




"The (2008 McLaren) car is a winner, but I knew that I was not going to win because of what happened at the end of the year," he told the Spanish newspaper Diario AS in Bahrain, thus breaking his silence about the breakdown of the McLaren relationship.

Alonso, 26, reveals that he did not feel supported at the Mercedes-powered team, where he was paired with the rookie sensation Lewis Hamilton.

Referring to his return to uncompetitive Renault, he said: "I prefer to be in eighth place with a thousand people who want me to finish seventh, rather than in third place and the other way round."

[Tazio]

http://racing.auto123.com/en/racing/news/index,view.spy?artid=96241I think Fred just didn't cotton to the cultural difference, and felt like a fish out of water(with a sprinkling of paranoia and a huge helping of Ego).
In reality Fred coped out. He sold himself short, and generally weak-dealed himself. He could of Maned-up. And taken on the challenge, and the bennifit of being a 1,2 driver punch that would have no match, and even beat the Suduria handily. This is already known. Not be rude, but i wouldn't call this a news scoop Maybe Just Maybe LH is a certifide Pr!ci<. I wasn't privey to alot of their interactions, and personal relationship. Mine is only conjecture!
Fred says he's happy to be away. I would take that at face value. But I still think he should have tried to keep his cool, and race LH. I think it was an act of a paranoid man with a guilty concience that got the FIA involved with making sure that there was equal treatment at the end of last season. That fellow goes by the name of Ron!

[Tazio]

I think it was an act of a paranoid man with a guilty concience that got the FIA
involved with making sure that there was equal treatment at the end of last season.
That fellow goes by the name of Ron!!
What I meant to say was:
I think it was an actions of a paranoid man with, a guilty concience that caused the FIA to get
involved with making sure that there was equal treatment at the end of last season.
That fellow goes by the name of Ron

[markabilly]

[quote="janneppi"]That's classic Alonso, he doesn't let reality affect his feelings. quote]



No he just let Ron's clear and undying love for Hamilton affect his feeling..... :vader:

[Jag_Warrior]

Eddie Gossage said it best:


Shut up and drive!

[Tazio]

Eddie Gossage said it best:
Gossage couldn't hold Fred's Jock!

[Koz]

Can I ask some questions? Yes I can.

1- How is the relationship with FM & his team? Two bad races aint that bad. He was not bad last year. And maybe he has some trouble with adjusting with TC but, he has some races in him. He is a very good qualifier, and I guess thats important enough.
2- Lets say FM does get the boot; will Ferrari want someone to give them publicity like FA in the first place? How will FA cope with KR?
3- Why would Ferrari take a chance of upsetting team morale/happiness, and that of their WDC by hiring FA? A person who back-stabbed Mac very nicely (although in Ferrari's favor)? I am sure he would do the same.
4- There are plenty of drivers Ferrari can pick and choose from, sure FA is a two time WDC. But he may effect the team in a bad way. So would Ferrari rather get someone like SV to play 2nd driver, and to fight for the win when KR doesnt have the pace? And to even possibly challenge KR, when its OK to do so, start of season etc.

It seems to me that KR is favored by Ferrari more than FM, ok. But if the going is bad, like for instance the last race of last year, would FA have dropped a win and taken one for the team?
Maybe team harmony is more important that FA, his pay cheque, and his dual WDCs. He was afterall beaten by a rookie, in the same machineary (lets imagine this, for the paranoid people), thats pretty bad for the ego. But I am sure FA thinks he is much better than KR, because his two championships came from the era of MS, and he has two of them compared to KR's 1. Which he also belives was unfairly taken away from him by Mac.

No?

[Jag_Warrior]

Gossage couldn't hold Fred's Jock!

Eddie's job is to run a business. Fernando's job is to drive race cars. Neither gets paid to talk. That's all I'm saying...

[Tazio]

Eddie's job is to run a business. Fernando's job is to drive race cars. Neither gets paid to talk. That's all I'm saying... :confused: I'm feeling a little defensive ok
Peace bro!

[Tazio]

Can I ask some questions? Yes I can.

1- How is the relationship with FM & his team? Two bad races aint that bad. He was not bad last year. And maybe he has some trouble with adjusting with TC but, he has some races in him. He is a very good qualifier, and I guess thats important enough.
2- Lets say FM does get the boot; will Ferrari want someone to give them publicity like FA in the first place? How will FA cope with KR?
3- Why would Ferrari take a chance of upsetting team morale/happiness, and that of their WDC by hiring FA? A person who back-stabbed Mac very nicely (although in Ferrari's favor)? I am sure he would do the same.
4- There are plenty of drivers Ferrari can pick and choose from, sure FA is a two time WDC. But he may effect the team in a bad way. So would Ferrari rather get someone like SV to play 2nd driver, and to fight for the win when KR doesnt have the pace? And to even possibly challenge KR, when its OK to do so, start of season etc.

It seems to me that KR is favored by Ferrari more than FM, ok. But if the going is bad, like for instance the last race of last year, would FA have dropped a win and taken one for the team?
Maybe team harmony is more important that FA, his pay cheque, and his dual WDCs. He was afterall beaten by a rookie, in the same machineary (lets imagine this, for the paranoid people), thats pretty bad for the ego. But I am sure FA thinks he is much better than KR, because his two championships came from the era of MS, and he has two of them compared to KR's 1. Which he also belives was unfairly taken away from him by Mac. No? A very insightful and logical post. The reason I pull for Fred is because the enemy of my enemy is my friend :p : When Fred passed Mike in Sazuka in the penaltament race of 2006
After an extremely rare Ferrari engine failure he gave mike an arrogant little wave. If I was at that track with a loaded 3 odd 6 I'd have shot Fred through his rather oversized Cranium! before he took the flag. Since then I've become a more rounded appreciator of F1 and am even known to compliment LH. SV seems to have his hands full with Bourdais! The reason I would like to see Fred teamed with Kimi is I don't think it would bother KImi at all if he had to race Fred in the same machinery. He would probably say something like “I think so very much that we will fight for the_etc" and so_on! Basically not change his game at all or is affected by the presence of "El Espana Loco" Fred is a more contemplative type, and can get into his own head very easily. As much as I've heard on this forum that putting those two together would lose money for the sport. I could see the sense of that scenario, and personally it doesn't deter my wishes. All of this is mute if Massa gets back on form because why would you want a head case like Fred if you have a guy who is a team player of still indeterminate talent? I am a Tifosi first. The reality is that no matter how good a battle Fred and Kimi could have Hamilton has a game that is equal. So there would always be conjecture that the best driver lost because maybe he was in inferior equipment (and I'm not saying he is) Fred has made his own bed. If Massa were to falter severely and be replaced by the arch-Anglo-enemy Federico. There would be the possibility of Kimi, if he won the WDC this season VS El Espana Loco in Ferrari's with the chance to make a strong case for who is the most accomplished pilot in F1 at the conclusion of that season. Who cares? Me!

[Dave B]

Eddie Gossage said it best:
I thought that was Rihanna... :p

[Tazio]

2009 less aero more Fred!!!

[Tazio]

http://f1.automoto365.com/news/controller.php?lang=en&theme=default&month=4&year=2008&nextMode=GpNewsForm&news_id=30668 It appears Mateschitz has asense of humor :p : :

"In such a short time we would not have been able to demonstrate our ability. And that would have meant a serious setback for us."

"Imagine. A former champion suffering in one of our cars this year?"

[ioan]

http://f1.automoto365.com/news/controller.php?lang=en&theme=default&month=4&year=2008&nextMode=GpNewsForm&news_id=30668 It appears Mateschitz has asense of humor :p : :

"In such a short time we would not have been able to demonstrate our ability. And that would have meant a serious setback for us."

"Imagine. A former champion suffering in one of our cars this year?"

He knows fully well that FA would be happier with the RBR than he is with the Renault at the moment. ;)

[samuratt]

That's classic Alonso, he doesn't let reality affect his feelings. That's what makes him such a good driver, refusing to acknowledge that someone might actually beat him without some foul play involved.


Well when your boss is pointing you as the enemy who must be defeated is quite easy to feel a little paranoid, and let other things affect your feelings. It hasn't got anything with being beaten, it has to do with the fact of not going to be allowed to win anymore, which is rather different.

cheers

[samuratt]

Can I ask some questions? Yes I can.

1- How is the relationship with FM & his team? Two bad races aint that bad. He was not bad last year. And maybe he has some trouble with adjusting with TC but, he has some races in him. He is a very good qualifier, and I guess thats important enough.
2- Lets say FM does get the boot; will Ferrari want someone to give them publicity like FA in the first place? How will FA cope with KR?
3- Why would Ferrari take a chance of upsetting team morale/happiness, and that of their WDC by hiring FA? A person who back-stabbed Mac very nicely (although in Ferrari's favor)? I am sure he would do the same.
4- There are plenty of drivers Ferrari can pick and choose from, sure FA is a two time WDC. But he may effect the team in a bad way. So would Ferrari rather get someone like SV to play 2nd driver, and to fight for the win when KR doesnt have the pace? And to even possibly challenge KR, when its OK to do so, start of season etc.

It seems to me that KR is favored by Ferrari more than FM, ok. But if the going is bad, like for instance the last race of last year, would FA have dropped a win and taken one for the team?
Maybe team harmony is more important that FA, his pay cheque, and his dual WDCs. He was afterall beaten by a rookie, in the same machineary (lets imagine this, for the paranoid people), thats pretty bad for the ego. But I am sure FA thinks he is much better than KR, because his two championships came from the era of MS, and he has two of them compared to KR's 1. Which he also belives was unfairly taken away from him by Mac.

No?


Now that you ask...

1) I don't know and i don't care
2) Fernando is a great asset in terms of publicity and advertising, if you work in advertising and public relations you would know that. Italian media will go mad (in a positive way of course) and for 1 month there would be no other story on the media. That is good.
3) Why would fernando upset the team? if I am an engineer i would be very dissapointed with Massa, because i would have worked so hard to give him a winning car and he goes and crash it at the first opportunity... You know that is not going to happen with Alonso, so sorry i can't see your point here. In fact Stefano Domenicale salutates Fernando very often in the padddock.
4)why should Ferrari sign anybody? they have a capable n2 in Massa, and Kimi who must win the tittle by his own this year. I can only see Fernando at Ferrari if Kimi fails to deliver.

[janneppi]

Well when your boss is pointing you as the enemy who must be defeated is quite easy to feel a little paranoid, and let other things affect your feelings. It hasn't got anything with being beaten, it has to do with the fact of not going to be allowed to win anymore, which is rather different.

cheers
As has been said many times, the quote from Dennis is taken out out of context.
That said, I do think Alonso wasn't the preferred winner if Hamilton was the other option, for many reasons, including Alonso's own behaviour, but to suggest he wasn't allowed to win is IMO a bad case of paranoia.

I have to wonder if Alonso is slapping his own forehead looking back at his Renault move after being beaten by Fisi in his Tata. :)

[leopard]

The first one third of last year's season they preferred Alonso. Nothing wrong with Alonso's behavior at that time. LH and the team were impetuous and took a premature decision to make the win trough LH's hand.

[jens]

http://f1.automoto365.com/news/controller.php?lang=en&theme=default&month=4&year=2008&nextMode=GpNewsForm&news_id=30668 It appears Mateschitz has asense of humor :p : :

"In such a short time we would not have been able to demonstrate our ability. And that would have meant a serious setback for us."

"Imagine. A former champion suffering in one of our cars this year?"

FA has a contract with someone for 2009 and it's not Renault?

Well, can't believe it's BMW (doubt that Dr. Mario would want Alonso). It looks quite possible that it might be Ferrari then (especially as Todt has stepped down as Ferrari's CEO).

Recall late 2005 and large part of 2006. Then there were also all kinds of rumours that Kimi might have some kind of contract with Ferrari, but in public it was denied and it was said that everything was unclear. Later it turned out that the rumours were true! It might be the same with Alonso.

[Tazio]

I have to wonder if Alonso is slapping his own forehead looking back at his Renault move after being beaten by Fisi in his Tata. :) I think Fred going into this season had a realistic expectation, and plan. The acomplisments of one of his underlings probably pleased him, if he even gave it a thought, which I doubt!

That was in my way of thinking an inflamatory remark, meant to insight, not becomming a man of athority on this forum! That's like me stooping so low s to saying "I wonder if Lew is crying in his beer having been beaten by Fred in a 5th rate car!"

[ioan]

As has been said many times, the quote from Dennis is taken out out of context.

It has been said many times (on the forum!) =/= it's true!

[janneppi]

Indeed.
Mind you ioan, same goes both ways, just because people who support Alonso (or have dislike against Hamilton or Dennis) in this issue bring it up every time, does necessarily make it true. ;)

[osg]

Alonso to Ferrari is more of a reality than many on here and other F1 forums around the world would like to admit...........

[Tazio]

Alonso to Ferrari is more of a reality than many on here and other F1 forums around the world would like to admit...........

Not surprising! He is a heck of a lot better racer than many want to admit. I was in denial myself for years! ;)

[ioan]

Indeed.
Mind you ioan, same goes both ways, just because people who support Alonso (or have dislike against Hamilton or Dennis) in this issue bring it up every time, does necessarily make it true. ;)

At least they have a quote that is very real.
Speculating about the context is however just speculation. ;)

[Tazio]

Indeed.
Mind you ioan, same goes both ways, just because people who support Alonso (or have dislike against Hamilton or Dennis) in this issue bring it up every time, does necessarily make it true. ;) Ok guys I have to chirp in. My opinion is that the issues you are arguing was not a determining factor in the outcome of the events of the 2007 season. What occurred at McLaren was the "perfect storm", Murphy's Law, The alignment of the stars, call it what ever you want but Ioan, don't blame Ron. Here is the dichotomy. In any normal sane situation a rookie would come in and the Veteran "Ringer" would be asked to share, and expose the new guy to some of the vast storehouse of knowledge, and experience he possessed. The Principal would take up the rest of the slack. That with his regular engineers and Mechanics would be a beneficial environment for the rookie to be able to contribute. It started to sour when through no fault of Fred or Lewis success came suddenly, and extraordinarily. At that point all the workings, and inner workings of the team were proper and equitable. Meaning that whatever advice help leadership and encouragement given to Hamilton by Ron and Fred were given in good faith and appropriate. The problems started getting serious when Fred had to reconcile himself to the Idea that He was not the British people’s choice. He would have been if Hamilton sucked. The fans would have loved for him to bring the WDC back to McLaren. As I've stated about twenty times Fred handled the situation poorly (not many other drivers that could have been in his situation would find it enviable) Here is a for instance! Replace Fred with Mike after Mike won two titles. Instead of taking his team to Ferrari, he just takes an offer from Ron and jumps into a McLaren and a rookie Brit starts beating him. Ioan I will give you the benefit of the doubt that Mike would have handled it a little more maturely than Fred. However I bet there are a lot of fans on this forum knowing the shenanigans Mike is capable of would say Mike would have even handled it worse and there maybe even have been some serious contact between the two on the track. When Mike was young he was at his most ruthless. The scenario with Mike never happened. But when you consider how caustic that situation could have been. Fred’s resolution doesn't seem so disparaging. Bottom line. Every one on McLaren Lost. Only the cynical fan that points out that Lewis outscored Fred claims victory. It is a completely hollow and insignificant acomplisment when you consider everything that was on the table for the taking.

[gloomyDAY]

Ok guys I have to chirp in. My opinion is that the issues you are arguing was not a determining factor in the outcome of the events of the 2007 season. What occurred at McLaren was the "perfect storm", Murphy's Law, The alignment of the stars, call it what ever you want but Ioan, don't blame Ron. Here is the dichotomy. In any normal sane situation a rookie would come in and the Veteran "Ringer" would be asked to share, and expose the new guy to some of the vast storehouse of knowledge, and experience he possessed. The Principal would take up the rest of the slack. That with his regular engineers and Mechanics would be a beneficial environment for the rookie to be able to contribute. It started to sour when through no fault of Fred or Lewis success came suddenly, and extraordinarily. At that point all the workings, and inner workings of the team were proper and equitable. Meaning that whatever advice help leadership and encouragement given to Hamilton by Ron and Fred were given in good faith and appropriate. The problems started getting serious when Fred had to reconcile himself to the Idea that He was not the British people’s choice. He would have been if Hamilton sucked. The fans would have loved for him to bring the WDC back to McLaren. As I've stated about twenty times Fred handled the situation poorly (not many other drivers that could have been in his situation would find it enviable) Here is a for instance! Replace Fred with Mike after Mike won two titles. Instead of taking his team to Ferrari, he just takes an offer from Ron and jumps into a McLaren and a rookie Brit starts beating him. Ioan I will give you the benefit of the doubt that Mike would have handled it a little more maturely than Fred. However I bet there are a lot of fans on this forum knowing the shenanigans Mike is capable of would say Mike would have even handled it worse and there maybe even have been some serious contact between the two on the track. When Mike was young he was at his most ruthless. The scenario with Mike never happened. But when you consider how caustic that situation could have been. Fred’s resolution doesn't seem so disparaging. Bottom line. Every one on McLaren Lost. Only the cynical fan that points out that Lewis outscored Fred claims victory. It is a completely hollow and insignificant acomplisment when you consider everything that was on the table for the taking.¶?

Great post. :)

[Bagwan]

I would say he's happy where he is , or , at least happier than where he was .
I think he's pretty happy jabbing his rivals , as it shows where the car is right now , and will benefit greatly if it's closer to the front by the end of the year .

He says he was behind the eight-ball at McLaren , and many believe him , including others who have driven there .

He's just starting to master the art of messing with his opponents without ever having to get near them on track .


Let's also not forget the benefit of having lines in the press galore , regarding this topic , and the fact that we're on our 9th page here .

Good move , Fernando .

[ioan]

Ok guys I have to chirp in. My opinion is that the issues you are arguing was not a determining factor in the outcome of the events of the 2007 season. What occurred at McLaren was the "perfect storm", Murphy's Law, The alignment of the stars, call it what ever you want but Ioan, don't blame Ron. Here is the dichotomy. In any normal sane situation a rookie would come in and the Veteran "Ringer" would be asked to share, and expose the new guy to some of the vast storehouse of knowledge, and experience he possessed. The Principal would take up the rest of the slack. That with his regular engineers and Mechanics would be a beneficial environment for the rookie to be able to contribute. It started to sour when through no fault of Fred or Lewis success came suddenly, and extraordinarily. At that point all the workings, and inner workings of the team were proper and equitable. Meaning that whatever advice help leadership and encouragement given to Hamilton by Ron and Fred were given in good faith and appropriate. The problems started getting serious when Fred had to reconcile himself to the Idea that He was not the British people’s choice. He would have been if Hamilton sucked. The fans would have loved for him to bring the WDC back to McLaren. As I've stated about twenty times Fred handled the situation poorly (not many other drivers that could have been in his situation would find it enviable) Here is a for instance! Replace Fred with Mike after Mike won two titles. Instead of taking his team to Ferrari, he just takes an offer from Ron and jumps into a McLaren and a rookie Brit starts beating him. Ioan I will give you the benefit of the doubt that Mike would have handled it a little more maturely than Fred. However I bet there are a lot of fans on this forum knowing the shenanigans Mike is capable of would say Mike would have even handled it worse and there maybe even have been some serious contact between the two on the track. When Mike was young he was at his most ruthless. The scenario with Mike never happened. But when you consider how caustic that situation could have been. Fred’s resolution doesn't seem so disparaging. Bottom line. Every one on McLaren Lost. Only the cynical fan that points out that Lewis outscored Fred claims victory. It is a completely hollow and insignificant acomplisment when you consider everything that was on the table for the taking.

Great composition, pity that it say nothing about what janneppi and I were actually talking.

As for bringing in a certain Mike, I don't see the logics behind it, all you did was speculating on top of speculation.

I usually try to comment about facts and do little speculation, so I hope you understand why I do not appreciate your way of explaining things.


...at least happier than where he was .

There's no doubt about that. ;)

[Tazio]

Great composition, pity that it say nothing about what janneppi and I were actually talking.

As for bringing in a certain Mike, I don't see the logics behind it, all you did was speculating on top of speculation.

I usually try to comment about facts and do little speculation, so I hope you understand why I do not appreciate your way of explaining ;)
No offense taken because I choose to look at the big picture in a situation as defining as the affect of a badly managed season is concerned. By mentioning you name twice I didn't mean to imply you were lees right than Jan' It is obvious to anyone that followed the exchance you were making a point

"As has been said many times, the quote from Dennis is taken out out of context.
That said, I do think Alonso wasn't the preferred winner if Hamilton was the other option, for many reasons, including Alonso's own behaviour, but to suggest he wasn't allowed to win is IMO a bad case of paranoia."

Both of you that is retorical, That is an arguement that has no resolution
I'm sure you are not the only member that does not care for my philosophical views.
But I apreciate the fact that you understand them ;)

[mstillhere]

Not surprising! He is a heck of a lot better racer than many want to admit. I was in denial myself for years! ;)

i second that

[ioan]

No offense taken because I choose to look at the big picture in a situation as defining as the affect of a badly managed season is concerned. By mentioning you name twice I didn't mean to imply you were lees right than Jan' It is obvious to anyone that followed the exchance you were making a point

"As has been said many times, the quote from Dennis is taken out out of context.
That said, I do think Alonso wasn't the preferred winner if Hamilton was the other option, for many reasons, including Alonso's own behaviour, but to suggest he wasn't allowed to win is IMO a bad case of paranoia."

Both of you that is retorical, That is an arguement that has no resolution
I'm sure you are not the only member that does not care for my philosophical views.
But I apreciate the fact that you understand them ;)

I see. Sorry for my harsh post.
I know that we agree about how Ron treated FA last season. :)
However I do not like it when people bring in other persons and develop a speculative scenario without any base.

[ArrowsFA1]

Great composition, pity that it say nothing about what janneppi and I were actually talking.
Tazio's post ( :up: ) provides context which is always worth having.

[Tazio]

http://www.crash.net/motorsport/f1/news/161870-0/chance_for_alonso_fan_to_travel_world_with_hero.ht ml

This contest has my name written all over it!!
Do you think I have a shot?
It's OK if I call him Fred? :confused:
If I lose should I stalk him?
I wonder if jr will enter? :p :
At least I won't have
Hamilton to
worry
about
;)

[samuratt]

As has been said many times, the quote from Dennis is taken out out of context.
That said, I do think Alonso wasn't the preferred winner if Hamilton was the other option, for many reasons, including Alonso's own behaviour, but to suggest he wasn't allowed to win is IMO a bad case of paranoia.

I have to wonder if Alonso is slapping his own forehead looking back at his Renault move after being beaten by Fisi in his Tata. :)


So now we must put Ron's comments into context, but we can state that Fernando is paranoid whatever the context of his statemets and/or actions are. This is call double standarts if I am not mistaken... And the fact that Ron said that is still there! you can not deny that.

regards!

PD: Fernando wasn't beaten by Fishi, maybe in the "context" but not in the race. sorry to dissapoint you! ;)

[Bagwan]

[quote="janneppi"]As has been said many times, the quote from Dennis is taken out out of context. [quote]

It is the word "we" in "we were racing Fernando" that is at issue .

What , exactly is being taken out of context , when the team principle uses "we" in relation to whom they were racing ?

Replace "we" with "he" , and "he was racing Fernando" becomes a phrase that requires no interpretation .
The "w" makes all the difference , as it showed clearly where Ron was standing at the time , in Lewis's side of the garage , strategizing on his behalf , seeing Fernando as a rival .

Sorry , but context here is in no doubt .

[janneppi]

So now we must put Ron's comments into context, but we can state that Fernando is paranoid whatever the context of his statemets and/or actions are. This is call double standarts if I am not mistaken... And the fact that Ron said that is still there! you can not deny that.


Well, I don't think we can't completely rule out that either Ron or Alonso, or both were lying to the the press saying what they said now can we? ;)

If you listen to people who have a dislike for Dennis, he can't be trusted, so how can you trust his comments to be true even if they suit your point of view?
If you trust him to tell the truth, should you then accept his own explenation to the comment where he said it was misworded?
Or do we just do what we always do, pick and choose only the bits that suit us best? ;)

Same with Alonso, he either was lying, being paranoid(as Pat Symonds would put it) or correct in the way he describes his relationship with McLaren, heck, it might even be a combination of all three.




PD: Fernando wasn't beaten by Fishi, maybe in the "context" but not in the race. sorry to dissapoint you! ;)
Oh, I'm usually not that interested what the backmarkers do
so I might not remember their races very well. :p :

[janneppi]

The "w" makes all the difference , as it showed clearly where Ron was standing at the time , in Lewis's side of the garage , strategizing on his behalf , seeing Fernando as a rival .

Sorry , but context here is in no doubt .
To continue with this line of thinking a bit, what happened first, McLaren fighting against Alonso or Alonso fighting against McLaren?

Was it the ten year long relationship between Hamilton and McLaren that lead to them putting their money on a rookie driver with a 200k salary instead of a 2time WDC with a multimillion paycheque?

Or was it a case of a bit of an over inflated ego unable to handle a hyped up rookie to be fast in the same equipment.

[Bagwan]

To continue with this line of thinking a bit, what happened first, McLaren fighting against Alonso or Alonso fighting against McLaren?

Was it the ten year long relationship between Hamilton and McLaren that lead to them putting their money on a rookie driver with a 200k salary instead of a 2time WDC with a multimillion paycheque?

Or was it a case of a bit of an over inflated ego unable to handle a hyped up rookie to be fast in the same equipment.

Both issues are irrelevent to my point .

That is , that his comment , taken in context , indeed shows clearly on which side of the garage Ron stood .
It does show Ron favoured Lewis over Fernando .

Why , is a different debate altogether .

[janneppi]

Both issues are irrelevent to my point .

That is , that his comment , taken in context , indeed shows clearly on which side of the garage Ron stood .
It does show Ron favoured Lewis over Fernando .

Yet it proves absolutely nothing about what Alonso said being prevented from winning races. It merely gives some weight to his comment if you choose to see it that way.
How much weight would you give it against other comments from Dennis, where he says both drivers were given equal treatment?

[Bagwan]

Yet it proves absolutely nothing about what Alonso said being prevented from winning races. It merely gives some weight to his comment if you choose to see it that way.
How much weight would you give it against other comments from Dennis, where he says both drivers were given equal treatment?

I took with more weight as more people with experience of the same issues came to the table to comment .
Montoya and Coulthard both expressed no surprise at the treatment , having believed them selves in the same situation at McLaren .
Dennis disagreed with them about it , too .

One team principle outweighs three drivers ? Or are you going to say they were all second rate and deserved second string status ?

[janneppi]

I took with more weight as more people with experience of the same issues came to the table to comment .
Montoya and Coulthard both expressed no surprise at the treatment , having believed them selves in the same situation at McLaren .
Dennis disagreed with them about it , too .

One team principle outweighs three drivers ? Or are you going to say they were all second rate and deserved second string status ?
But how would you view that particular comment made by Dennis against comments he has made which contradict that one? I believe that was the question. :)

One could also say they both DC and JPM were often beaten by their team mates and needed an excuse for it.
Mind you, to the best of my knowledge neither of the two have said "they had proof" they weren't going to win races against their team mates.
Take Montoya for example, if my memory serves me right, he and Kimi used a different chassis because differences in driving style, if Montoya was treated as a second rate driver, he would have been forced to drive with the same chassis as Kimi.

[wmcot]

But how would you view the comment made by Dennis against comment he has made that contradict that one, I believe that was the question. :)


Huh????

[ioan]

To continue with this line of thinking a bit, what happened first, McLaren fighting against Alonso or Alonso fighting against McLaren?

Was it the ten year long relationship between Hamilton and McLaren that lead to them putting their money on a rookie driver with a 200k salary instead of a 2time WDC with a multimillion paycheque?

Or was it a case of a bit of an over inflated ego unable to handle a hyped up rookie to be fast in the same equipment.

If as you put it, it was the "the ten year long relationship between Hamilton and McLaren that lead to them putting their money on a rookie driver with a 200k salary instead of a 2time WDC with a multimillion paycheque", than it is clear that it was McLaren against FA at the beginning.

A hyped up rookie wouldn't have been the problem, as long as the team would have been fair to both sides.
In the end the hyped up and hyper protected and supported rookie failed to win the WDC, losing 18 points in 2 races, while the 2 times WDC fought against the oposition and his team to equal him in the standings.

McLaren are the ones who lost most in this whole debacle, and I can't say that I was unhappy with the outcome! :p :

[ioan]

But how would you view that particular comment made by Dennis against comments he has made which contradict that one? I believe that was the question. :)

???


One could also say they both DC and JPM were often beaten by their team mates and needed an excuse for it.
Mind you, to the best of my knowledge neither of the two have said "they had proof" they weren't going to win races against their team mates.
Take Montoya for example, if my memory serves me right, he and Kimi used a different chassis because differences in driving style, if Montoya was treated as a second rate driver, he would have been forced to drive with the same chassis as Kimi.

Let's see! :D

OzGP 1998, Hakkinen is given the win following team orders camouflaged as "a gentlemen agreement"! I bet DC was happier than ever! :rolleyes:

Canadian GP 2005, JPM is screwed by the team during SC in order to give Kimi the upper hand! Team members gave so many contradictory explanations after the event that it was obvious they were all lying (and don't tell me that McLaren are not liars, I have plenty of proof to support my view about them).

And these are just the most obvious ones occasions where their 2nd drivers were shown the "consideration" of the McTeam.

[janneppi]

???
Well, I ask you then, you say Dennis can't be trusted to tell the truth, what makes you think he was telling the truth when he said "we were racing Alonso"?

[janneppi]

If as you put it, it was the "the ten year long relationship between Hamilton and McLaren that lead to them putting their money on a rookie driver with a 200k salary instead of a 2time WDC with a multimillion paycheque", than it is clear that it was McLaren against FA at the beginning.

If that's the case why did they even hire Alonso in the first place, surely there would have been far more easier people to use as a second driver.



A hyped up rookie wouldn't have been the problem, as long as the team would have been fair to both sides. The trouble is that if Alonso's ego got in the way he would think fair is that everyone should work for him.



In the end the hyped up and hyper protected and supported rookie failed to win the WDC, losing 18 points in 2 races, while the 2 times WDC fought against the opposition and his team to equal him in the standings.
Or that a 2 time WDC failed to make a team work for him and threw his toys out the pram after first signs of trouble.


McLaren are the ones who lost most in this whole debacle, and I can't say that I was unhappy with the outcome! :p :Me neither. :)

[ioan]

Well, I ask you then, you say Dennis can't be trusted to tell the truth, what makes you think he was telling the truth when he said "we were racing Alonso"?

Because you think that RD would lie just to try to make himself and his team look like idiots who are trying to destroy one of their drivers?!
I'll tell you a secret, people lie in an attempt to help their own situation, not to worsen it! ;)

[SGWilko]

OK, so some reference has been made to ex McLaren drivers.

DC. I think we can all agree that, on his day, he was great, but NOT WDC material. He knew that, the team knew that. End of.

JPM. Ok, so he put himself out of contention when he had the tennis/motorbike accident. But, his record at Williams tells you all you need to know. Period.

Now, Alonso and Hamilton. Lewis showed, from day one, he was a match for Alsonso. SO why put your eggs in one basket? McLaren support both drivers, and did so. The 'we are racing Alsonso' comment was reference that they were ahead enough of the opposition at that time, so were not racing them. Full Stop.

Next?

[ioan]

If that's the case why did they even hire Alonso in the first place, surely there would have been far more easier people to use as a second driver.

They hired Alonso more than one year earlier! I think that was when Lewis didn't yet prove himself in GP2.
This is something people forget easily and conveniently. ;)

[ioan]

The 'we are racing Alsonso' comment was reference that they were ahead enough of the opposition at that time, so were not racing them. Full Stop.

Next?

They were surely 17 points in front of Kimi (for a few laps that is :D ).
As pointed out by Bagwan the problem doesn't lie in the part that LH was racing against FA (his closest rival in the standings), but that 'we' (RD and the rest of the McLaren team) were also fighting against FA! I know it's only a very little letter that some might want to forget now, but the meaning of that phrase summed up a whole season at McLaren! ;)

[janneppi]

They hired Alonso more than one year earlier! I think that was when Lewis didn't yet prove himself in GP2.
This is something people forget easily and conveniently. ;) It's easy to forget because it's basically meaningless. To suggest that a GP2 championship would weight in more than one or two F1 WDC's show's quite an imagination. :p :

[ioan]

It's easy to forget because it's basically meaningless.

Why is it meaningless? It answered your own question about why did they hire Alonso in the first place.

What is meaningless is to try to discuss with people who can't accept other people's views.
You are one of those who ask questions only because you have no answers to what you are trying to support. Than when you get a valid answer you say it's meaningless instead of trying to bring a valid argument to the discussion. :s

[janneppi]

Why is it meaningless? It answered your own question about why did they hire Alonso in the first place.

I understood your post to suggest that after he won GP2 championship Hamilton was chosen over Alonso as the number one in the team.

I must have misunderstood your post because that would be a ridiculous suggestion.

Obviously you meant in another way, could you explain it a bit better perhaps?



What is meaningless is to try to discuss with people who can't accept other people's views. Discussing issues as vague as this doesn't have to lead to an agreement.Why would I accept your view to be the correct one if I disagree with it? I certainly don't expect my view to be 100% correct, neither is yours.


You are one of those who ask questions only because you have no answers to what you are trying to support. Than when you get a valid answer you say it's meaningless instead of trying to bring a valid argument to the discussion. :s
I ask question because I like to hear people's opinions on matters, I have no 100% firm opinion on why things went down as they did, I'm not Ron Dennis or Alonso so I can't know the whole truth, neither can you.

I do hope you're not having a serious debate or an argument with me, if so let m know so I can stop right here as I have little interest in anything more than lighthearted discussion to pass the time.

[ArrowsFA1]

As pointed out by Bagwan the problem doesn't lie in the part that LH was racing against FA, but that 'we' (RD and the rest of the McLaren team) were also fighting against FA!
The 'we' could also have meant Hamilton's side of the McLaren garage were racing Alonso's side of the McLaren garage at the Chinese GP. As you've said LH was 17pts ahead of Kimi, and 12 ahead of Alonso going to China so the concern was not chasing down Kimi, but managing the race with Alonso. That was the job of Hamilton's side of the garage in China, and Ron was saying just that IMHO.


Anyway...just how happy is Alonso at Renault?

[SGWilko]

Anyway...just how happy is Alonso at Renault?

Oh yes, I remember now...... :)

Well, if he HAS got a get out clause at the end of 2008, and he does go to a better team, he's probably laughing all the way to Santander....

BTW Ioan, when Ron says 'hello', do you take that as a greeting, or as a 'hello, what's going on 'ere then' as in a suspicious hello?

Just wondering, because it seems to me, whatever that man says, you have the full SP on it......... :eek:

[ShiftingGears]

Anyway...just how happy is Alonso at Renault?

Tough question. I'm not sure he'd be completely happy at any team. His behaviour baffles a lot of the time (eg going ape**** at Renault at China '06, but then admitting responsibility for the poor tyre choice and refusing to blame Renault). He's an odd one.

[Bagwan]

But how would you view that particular comment made by Dennis against comments he has made which contradict that one? I believe that was the question. :)

One could also say they both DC and JPM were often beaten by their team mates and needed an excuse for it.
Mind you, to the best of my knowledge neither of the two have said "they had proof" they weren't going to win races against their team mates.
Take Montoya for example, if my memory serves me right, he and Kimi used a different chassis because differences in driving style, if Montoya was treated as a second rate driver, he would have been forced to drive with the same chassis as Kimi.

You need a more straight forward answer ?
One man's word against three .

It was never reported that Dennis apologized for saying they were racing Alonso . Maybe he should have .
We should remember that Fernando's idea that he was the #2 was not just a product of this slip of the tongue .

The press went to DC and Montoya for comment about the matter , and they were not surprised .

If the proof with which you wish me to furnish you is a quote from RD , saying he screwed JPM , DC , and FA , then you might just as well close this thread , too .

[samuratt]

The 'we' could also have meant Hamilton's side of the McLaren garage were racing Alonso's side of the McLaren garage at the Chinese GP. As you've said LH was 17pts ahead of Kimi, and 12 ahead of Alonso going to China so the concern was not chasing down Kimi, but managing the race with Alonso. That was the job of Hamilton's side of the garage in China, and Ron was saying just that IMHO.


Anyway...just how happy is Alonso at Renault?


Yes, but it tells you the garage side Ron was standing at the moment. And Ron was on Lewis side, therfore the "we" in the sentence.

[ioan]

The 'we' could also have meant Hamilton's side of the McLaren garage were racing Alonso's side of the McLaren garage at the Chinese GP.

In that case he should have used "they"!
Or do you mean that RD was one of LH's mechanics?! I was not aware about that.
By saying "we" he put himself in the group that were racing Alonso, there is no way to deny that, unless you have little knowledge of English, and this obviously isn't the case.

[ArrowsFA1]

Well, Alonso signed for McLaren having just won his first WDC with Renault, where he was Briatore's favourite son but he wanted the challenge of winning elsewhere. As we know, although he did win races, things didn't work out at Woking and he finds himself back 'home' struggling to get into Q3 let alone reach a podium finish. That must be hard to take for a 2xWDC.

Unless Alonso wants to watch his career slowly decline he needs to find a winning car, and quickly, because the 0.5s he brings ( ;) ) will not help Renault enough at the moment.

He's in a difficult position. Does he gamble that Renault will come good in 2009, or does he look elsewhere, and if so where?

Apparently Kimi & Felipe are signed at Ferrari for 2009, but we all know contracts are there to be broken. However, it's hard (impossible?) to see them getting rid of Kimi to make room for Fernando, and while Massa is a little vulnerable at the moment after his tough start to the year, if he comes good and even wins the title this year then surely Ferrari wouldn't consider a change. Then again, any decision for 2009 is likely to be made before the outcome of the 2008 title is known.

If it is to be Ferrari then when was the last time they had two WDC's racing for them?

[janneppi]

It was never reported that Dennis apologized for saying they were racing Alonso . Maybe he should have .
you mean something like this:

http://formula1sport.net/formula-1/dennis-plays-down-anti-alonso-slip/

“It was a mistake with the language,” the Briton told Spanish reporters on Friday, according to the news agency EFE.

Dennis admitted that he should have used the word ‘he’ rather than ‘we’, which implied that the McLaren organisation in general was manoeuvring against Alonso.

“What I meant to say was that Hamilton was fighting more against Alonso than he was with Raikkonen. I was attacked by the press about something that I did not mean. It was a small and a bad mistake.

“My team always strives for equality between our drivers.”

[ioan]

I understood your post to suggest that after he won GP2 championship Hamilton was chosen over Alonso as the number one in the team.

I must have misunderstood your post because that would be a ridiculous suggestion.

Obviously you meant in another way, could you explain it a bit better perhaps?

Obviously. Let's explain it:

Your question:

If that's the case why did they even hire Alonso in the first place, surely there would have been far more easier people to use as a second driver.

My answer:

They hired Alonso more than one year earlier! I think that was when Lewis didn't yet prove himself in GP2.
This is something people forget easily and conveniently. ;)

Your follow up:

It's easy to forget because it's basically meaningless.

As you see, I answered your question as for why they hired FA in the first place. You say it's meaningless!
Either you didn't read what you wrote in your question, or you realized that your question was meaningless. Because an answer to a question can't be meaningless.

[ioan]

you mean something like this:

http://formula1sport.net/formula-1/dennis-plays-down-anti-alonso-slip/

Don't tell us, Ron can't speak English?!
He does not know what is the difference between "we" and "he"?

Sound to me like when the JPM disaster in Canada 2005 happened, everyone was making contradictory comments.

McLaren and RD are the laughing stock of F1, and they brought it on themselves.

[samuratt]

Well, I don't think we can't completely rule out that either Ron or Alonso, or both were lying to the the press saying what they said now can we? ;)

If you listen to people who have a dislike for Dennis, he can't be trusted, so how can you trust his comments to be true even if they suit your point of view?
If you trust him to tell the truth, should you then accept his own explenation to the comment where he said it was misworded?
Or do we just do what we always do, pick and choose only the bits that suit us best? ;)

Same with Alonso, he either was lying, being paranoid(as Pat Symonds would put it) or correct in the way he describes his relationship with McLaren, heck, it might even be a combination of all three.


Oh, I'm usually not that interested what the backmarkers do
so I might not remember their races very well. :p :

Those are rethorical questions aren't they? otherwise i think i have not the time neither the will to answer. Sorry :laugh:

And as a McLaren supporter I am sure you were paying some attention to Hamiltons race. And I am sure you notice that Fishichella did beat Hamilton at Barein. Now that you know it you can change your sign in order to remember it! ;)

And to sum up, a question (rethorical, you don't need to answer it):
What was first? The egg or the chicken?

[janneppi]

Obviously. Let's explain it:


As you see, I answered your question as for why they hired FA in the first place. You say it's meaningless!
Either you didn't read what you wrote in your question, or you realized that your question was meaningless. Because an answer to a question can't be meaningless.Ah so, I said your answer was meaningless because I thought you suggested that McLaren put Hamilton ahead of Alonso because he proved himself winning the GP2 title. :)

My bad. :)

[janneppi]

And as a McLaren supporter I am sure you were paying some attention to Hamiltons race. And I am sure you notice that Fishichella did beat Hamilton at Barein. Now that you know it you can change your sign in order to remember it! ;)

I'm not a McLaren supporter, but you being a Renault fan your mistake is easy to forgive. ;)


And to sum up, a question (rethorical, you don't need to answer it):
What was first? The egg or the chicken?
:rotflmao:

[ArrowsFA1]

you mean something like this:
http://formula1sport.net/formula-1/dennis-plays-down-anti-alonso-slip/
Thanks for clearing it up :up:

Any chance of getting back to Alonso's happiness, and when was the last time Ferrari had two WDC's racing for them? :p

[Bagwan]

you mean something like this:

http://formula1sport.net/formula-1/dennis-plays-down-anti-alonso-slip/

"I didn't mean it" , isn't "sorry" .

His "small and bad mistake" was no surprise to some , and it didn't convince Fernando , it seems .

Nice job finding that quote , by the way .
"Dennis plays down anti-Alonso slip" describes the situation clearly .

[Valve Bounce]

Well, I ask you then, you say Dennis can't be trusted to tell the truth, what makes you think he was telling the truth when he said "we were racing Alonso"?
Well, yeah!!
They weren't racing Darth Vader, were they??

[markabilly]

you mean something like this:

http://formula1sport.net/formula-1/dennis-plays-down-anti-alonso-slip/



“What I meant to say was that Hamilton was fighting more against Alonso than he was with Raikkonen. I was attacked by the press about something that I did not mean. It was a small and a bad mistake."

Mistake?

As in the proverbial Freudian slip.....

And per the bold, he seems to be admitting in his apology/excuse to the same concept--tangled web that he has created caught him AGAIN!!!

And just who was whispering into his ear and telling LH when to pit and why?
Because "we" were racing FA, rather than Kimi.....LH was staying out on the track because RD was telling him to do so.........

yes sir, RD always tells the truth, each and everytime, just like he did about the fuel temperature appeal to change the WDC results, errr err I mean "rule clarification not to change results" but his attorney said that due to fuel temp all the cars in front with the problem must be disq and the WDC given to LH...... (so that was another "small" mistake)....like he said it was only one rogue employee......(so that was another "small" mistake)................I could go on and on.....

I suppose if you drink enough kool aid, one might start to believewhat RD says... :beer:

[ioan]

Ah so, I said your answer was meaningless because I thought you suggested that McLaren put Hamilton ahead of Alonso because he proved himself winning the GP2 title. :)

My bad. :)

It's OK, we all make mistakes, even the moderators! :p :

[ArrowsFA1]

"I didn't mean it" , isn't "sorry".
Why should Ron Dennis apologise for the way the media, and others, interpret his words? I can obviously see how some would choose to see it as "anti-Alonso", but equally, as I've said all along, it was perfectly valid to say "we" meant Hamilton's side of the garage.

As Dennis said after a journalist apologised to McLaren for a quote wrongly attributed to Lewis Hamilton after the Brazilian GP last year:
"I have said so often, the Internet has been the bane of our lives. This is an uncontrolled, unedited, source of information that is fed into the media. Of course, I am not critical at all of the media. It just makes it so hard because everything is so instantaneous. You are just spending too much time trying to correct the inaccuracies that come into the system."

[Bagwan]

[quote="ArrowsFA1"]as I've said all along, it was perfectly valid to say "we" meant Hamilton's side of the garage.[quote]

"We" , did mean Hamilton's side . You're right .

Do you think it's incorrect to assume Ron was speaking from Lewis's strategical standpoint ?
Was he unaware of Fernando's strategy ?

At issue is whether Fernando believed it was an example of what he already had been thinking .
Given that DC and Montoya had seen this , the press asked them for comment . That wasn't so off-base as Ron implies .

Ron has always had an interesting relationship with the press corp , to the extent that we all are familiar with the term "Ronspeak" .

DC was dumped . Montoya left in the middle of the season , and Fernando left mid-contract , by mutual consent .
So , all three having had the same issues at McLaren points to Ron either not being a very good manager , or being heavily biassed as they all say .

[ArrowsFA1]

Do you think it's incorrect to assume Ron was speaking from Lewis's strategical standpoint ?
From seeing him on tv, and reading something about the level of his involvement during the races, I think RD is closely involved in race strategy. In this case (the Chinese GP) I suspect his use of the word "we", coming as it did straight off the pitwall, meant the Hamilton side of the garage.

Was he unaware of Fernando's strategy?
It's unlikely isn't it, but I have no means of knowing, just has I have no idea what his exact role on the pitlane is/was.

DC was dumped . Montoya left in the middle of the season , and Fernando left mid-contract , by mutual consent .
So , all three having had the same issues at McLaren points to Ron either not being a very good manager , or being heavily biassed as they all say . .
Drivers and teams get together, and part, for many varied reasons. In McLaren's case one of those reasons may have been RD not working as well with some drivers as others. So Alonso and Montoya didn't work out; there have been many others that did.

[ioan]

"I have said so often, the Internet has been the bane of our lives. This is an uncontrolled, unedited, source of information that is fed into the media. Of course, I am not critical at all of the media. It just makes it so hard because everything is so instantaneous. You are just spending too much time trying to correct the inaccuracies that come into the system."

As Dennis said after a journalist apologised to McLaren for a quote wrongly attributed to Lewis Hamilton after the Brazilian GP last year:

Ah, ol Ronnie boy, he would like to control everything, the press, the internet, his drivers etc...

Maybe his team started cheating while he was busy editing and controlling the internet news sites?! :D

[ArrowsFA1]

Ah, ol Ronnie boy, he would like to control everything, the press, the internet, his drivers etc...
As a general comment that may be a valid criticism of Ron Dennis, and perhaps 2007 showed him it simply was not possible to manage every aspect of his team any more.

Way back in the late 70s McLaren was based in a small unit on the (IIRC) Colnbrook industrial estate near Slough. As a young F1 fan I was able to turn up one day, knock on the door, ask if I could look around and be allowed to. They even gave me a load of Marlboro stickers when I left! When RD took it over it was a small manageable organisation, but you only need to look at McLaren's HQ today, and the many & varied parts to the company, to realise not only the scale of RD's achievements, but also the degree to which things have changed.

Still, that doesn't help us understand if Alonso is happy at Renault or not :p

[ioan]

Still, that doesn't help us understand if Alonso is happy at Renault or not :p

He is certainly happier than he was with McLaren. :p
He's the no.1 again, he's protected again by Flav and even if the car isn't top shelf he is feeling at home in the team.

[samuratt]

From seeing him on tv, and reading something about the level of his involvement during the races, I think RD is closely involved in race strategy. In this case (the Chinese GP) I suspect his use of the word "we", coming as it did straight off the pitwall, meant the Hamilton side of the garage.

It's unlikely isn't it, but I have no means of knowing, just has I have no idea what his exact role on the pitlane is/was.

Drivers and teams get together, and part, for many varied reasons. In McLaren's case one of those reasons may have been RD not working as well with some drivers as others. So Alonso and Montoya didn't work out; there have been many others that did.

It is fair to say than when Ron said "we" he was refering to Hamilton's side of the garage. But when you say "We" instead of "They" it implies that you (Ron in this case) are in one of the sides (and not both). And Ron clearly stated on which side he was. Not in Fernando's clearly.

Furthermore, if he really thought at that moment Fernando was part of the team, and assuming he tried to say "we" as a reference to one side of the garage, why he didn't use "us" when refering to Fernando (or at least "Them"). No, it is We vs Fernando, wasn't Fernando part of the team?? Did he deserve to be included in the "we"?? Certainly Ron did not think so, at least on his side of the garage. I think Ron was betrayed by his own feelings, and after such a crash in the championship (after failing to finish in China) his mind did not find the corporate "tone" required to speak to the press. In my honest opinion he said what he thought! and therefore he treated Fernando as the enemy, and not as part of his organisation or at least not a part of "his side of the garage".

Still faith is for free...
;)

[Bagwan]

From seeing him on tv, and reading something about the level of his involvement during the races, I think RD is closely involved in race strategy. In this case (the Chinese GP) I suspect his use of the word "we", coming as it did straight off the pitwall, meant the Hamilton side of the garage.

It's unlikely isn't it, but I have no means of knowing, just has I have no idea what his exact role on the pitlane is/was.

Drivers and teams get together, and part, for many varied reasons. In McLaren's case one of those reasons may have been RD not working as well with some drivers as others. So Alonso and Montoya didn't work out; there have been many others that did.

It is why they didn't work out that we are discussing .
All will tell you they felt second string .

Sounding like he didn't know Fernando's strategy adds weight to the idea that it was a slip that turned out , as markabilly said , rather Freudian .

And , we are talking about the last three combos at McLaren .
So far this year seems harmonious , but who knows what will happen if Lewis has another one or two races like the last one .

[tsarcasm]

http://www.planetf1.com/story/0,18954,3213_3455641,00.html
3 races in and Alonso is wanting out of his contract, again

say what you want about Schumi, but at least he had determination, unlink a certain double world champion....

[AJP]

He is certainly happier than he was with McLaren. :p
He's the no.1 again, he's protected again by Flav and even if the car isn't top shelf he is feeling at home in the team.

http://sportal.com.au/motorsport-news-display/alonso-i-have-to-be-competitive-47072

I think this link contradicts what your saying.
He certainly is not happy at renault..he may have little moments of optimism, but I doubt that keeps a smile on his face.

[markabilly]

From seeing him on tv, and reading something about the level of his involvement during the races, I think RD is closely involved in race strategy. In this case (the Chinese GP) I suspect his use of the word "we", coming as it did straight off the pitwall, meant the Hamilton side of the garage.



Drivers and teams get together, and part, for many varied reasons. In McLaren's case one of those reasons may have been RD not working as well with some drivers as others. So Alonso and Montoya didn't work out; there have been many others that did.


Recently I got to thinking about Lauda and his big mac experience, like the time RD was clearly pushing Prost over Lauda and the posters popped out before the last race was done, of Prost being WDC driving a mac (produced by mac of course), before the WDC was won by someone else (guess who)...........along with some other obvious favoritism.....and other stuff.

So RD lied and history repeats itself.....what else is new????....keeping on drinking....... :beer:

[CNR]

Alonso ready for '09 team switch
http://www.wheels24.co.za/Wheels24/NewsPics/0,,1369-1375_2310168,00.html

if alonso keeps going like this what team would wont him ?




Alonso, the 26-year-old winner of 19 Grands Prix between 2003 and last year, is now making no secret of his search for a winning cockpit for 2009.
"What I want is to race in a car that can give me victories," he confirmed to the Spanish newspaper El Pais.
"There are several - Williams, Toyota, BMW and Ferrari - that are always on top, no matter what," Alonso said. He revealed that his "priority in life" at the current moment is to return to the top step of the F1 podium.

[Dzeidzei]

Alonso ready for '09 team switch
http://www.wheels24.co.za/Wheels24/NewsPics/0,,1369-1375_2310168,00.html

if alonso keeps going like this what team would wont him ?

It seems Alonso will have no place in Ferrari. At least thats what Luca says: http://www.gazzetta.it/Motori/Formula1/Primo_Piano/2008/04_Aprile/22/montezemolo.shtml.

Not suprised at all. Alonso´s famous .6 secs contribution seems more and more just hype.

[samuratt]

Then, to sum up:

The responsible for what happened at McLaren last year is Fernando.
The responsible of the spyscandal was Fernando.
The responsible for Hamilton not wining last years championship was Fernando.
The responsible for Ron language mistakes is, was and will be Fernando.
The responsible for Kimi to win the championship was Fernando
The responsible for the poor Renault performance is Fernando
The responsible for Mclaren's actual lack of pace is Fernando
The responsible for Hamilton not being able to push the right buttons is Fernando.
and the list goes on...

And my question is, why should he, with all this crap on his back, be happy at all???

Answer: cause he earns €20mill a year maybe??? or maybe cause he does what makes him happy: drive an f1 car.

[samuratt]

Then, to sum up:

The responsible for what happened at McLaren last year is Fernando.
The responsible of the spyscandal was Fernando.
The responsible for Hamilton not wining last years championship was Fernando.
The responsible for Ron language mistakes is, was and will be Fernando.
The responsible for Kimi to win the championship was Fernando
The responsible for the poor Renault performance is Fernando
The responsible for Mclaren's actual lack of pace is Fernando
The responsible for Hamilton not being able to push the right buttons is Fernando.
and the list goes on...

And my question is, why should he, with all this crap on his back, be happy at all???

Answer: cause he earns €20mill a year maybe??? or maybe cause he does what makes him happy: drive an f1 car.


Ups, I almost forgot, he is responsible for Spain not winning the 2008 Euro soccer cup too.

[jens]

"There are several - Williams, Toyota, BMW and Ferrari - that are always on top, no matter what," Alonso said.

Williams and Toyota? He has quite a high opinion about these teams. :)

[Bagwan]

Think about this for a moment , kids .

Fernando is no fool .
Just how much support would you expect from his team if his gripes are for real ?
It worked on Massa , and now it'll work on the others .

A few carefully chosen words , and he looks like he's on the market , giving added pressure to those under pressure from team-mates .
Those winning the inter-team battles will be fearful of getting a twice WDC as a new team-mate .

"Williams,Toyota,BMW,and Ferrari" drivers just got a seed of instability planted in their heads . It will grow in some of them , no matter what the team principles say about it .

This is another master stroke for a guy who's learning how to use the press .
Of course , I would expect Flavio has a role in this . He may be the one writing the speeches .

[truefan72]

From Eurosport: [Ferrari president Luca di Montezemolo has said he does not want to sign double world champion Fernando Alonso to the Formula One team, believing such a move would be "damaging".] full article here: http://eurosport.yahoo.com/22042008/58/ferrari-alonso-signing-damaging.html

Well he said it and it looks like alonso's wish to join Ferrari may face some hurdles, especially when the top man doesn't think it is a good idea.

He had an interesting comment about "wanting teammates that work together" which seems to insinuate that FA may have earned a slightly negative reputation as "difficult to work with" which isn't helping his cause.

thoughts?

[Dzeidzei]

Think about this for a moment , kids .

This is another master stroke for a guy who's learning how to use the press .
Of course , I would expect Flavio has a role in this . He may be the one writing the speeches .

Think about this for a moment, kids.

This is another desperate attempt for a guy who knows that he´s upt to his elbows in ****e to beg for an opening.

A guy who knows that he´s shut the door for 1 of best teams and the boss of another hates him.

Am I to race in P8 for the rest of my career?

Think about this for a moment, kids.

PS. Sorry Bagwan, this is not against you. I just cannot buy the idea of Fernando playing the press.

[markabilly]

so when has he ever been happy?
probably keeps him motivated


some people who are unhappy, stay hungry..............

some people when happy with what they got, sit around and get fat...

So which is better: happy Ralfie or unhappy Freddie.......

I know my choice.......

[yodasarmpit]

He just confirmed what everyone else was thinking.

[samuratt]

Maybe it is me, or maybe i do speak less english than I thought but what Montezemolo is stating is that having two Nº1 will damage the team! Then he says that he wants "two drivers that work together" which in my opinion refers to Massa moving aside in order to have Kimi at the top.

It is easy to make an story out of two sentences though! :D

[yodasarmpit]

"To line up a Raikkonen-Alonso double act would mean wanting to damage yourself," he told La Gazzetta dello Sport.

"I want two equal drivers that work together."
Nope, that's pretty obvious he's referring to Alonso

[GP-M3]

Well, everyone but the pundits, web site authors and bloggers. I was increasingly amazed that so many "in the know" kept writing that Alonso was heading for Ferrari. I can not imagine that, and with others here have said since the beginning... it makes no sense at all. Why disrupt the team with the influence of someone that plays the game the way Fernando has.

There is harmony now on the team, Felipe and Kimi seem to get on well, and though I think Kimi must be #1 for the most part, you can't deny FM's qualifying speed and lack of mistakes when he is absolutely fastest and in front.

So, they seem good to go, and even if FA is a better racer the FM, the small advantage he may have in ultimate driver preference, would pale in comparison to what damage he could do, should he start throwing the toys out of the pram again.

They just don't need it, and I'm really glad Luca finally said so.


He just confirmed what everyone else was thinking.

[BDunnell]

It is also quite an interesting admission on Ferrari's part given the way in which it was believed in some quarters that Alonso was treated badly by McLaren.

[maxu05]

Why should Ferrari hire FA, when they have 2 proven race winners ? If it aint broke, why try to change it.

[BDunnell]

I agree. If Raikkonen leaves, then maybe it should be considered, but not at present.

[truefan72]

I agree. If Raikkonen leaves, then maybe it should be considered, but not at present.


that's the only scenario I see possible

[PSfan]

From Eurosport: [Ferrari president Luca di Montezemolo has said he does not want to sign double world champion Fernando Alonso to the Formula One team, believing such a move would be "damaging".] full article here: http://eurosport.yahoo.com/22042008/58/ferrari-alonso-signing-damaging.html

Well he said it and it looks like alonso's wish to join Ferrari may face some hurdles, especially when the top man doesn't think it is a good idea.

He had an interesting comment about "wanting teammates that work together" which seems to insinuate that FA may have earned a slightly negative reputation as "difficult to work with" which isn't helping his cause.

thoughts?


That was an interesting read. Not sure what to think about them claiming Alonso doesn't have the escape clause because I read another article last night suggesting otherwise...

I do agree that a Kimi/Alonso pairing wouldn't be good for Ferrari, but not for the reasons implied in this thread. I think both Kimi and Alonso would get on respectably together, Kimi already has to share the spotlight and attention from time to time thanks to MS, plus part of me thinks he excell when he isn't the center of all the attention. Alonso I think would work really hard to avoid the same kind of press he received last year.

I think the major problem would be that they would probably require significantly different cars to run at their best. I think Alonso's problems early last year came from not being adjusted to the Macs, and the car not doing what he asked it to do, more then any pressure from LH.

[Hawkmoon]

I'm glad to hear Montezemolo say it. When you have a Raikkonen you don't need an Alonso. Massa is a perfect foil for Raikkonen. Fast enough to keep the Finn honest and capable of winning races in his own right. Ferrari would be mad to mess with a successful team setup.

[markabilly]

I agree, but BMW would have perhaps have someone leading the WDC AND winning races, if only.....but they are happy being "solid"

[GP-M3]

BMW's a different story. Though I'd hate to see RK or NH leave, FA to BMW might make a bit of sense. I'm just glad he doesn't seem headed to Fer. any time soon.


I agree, but BMW would have perhaps have someone leading the WDC AND winning races, if only.....but they are happy being "solid"

[BDunnell]

I'm glad to hear Montezemolo say it. When you have a Raikkonen you don't need an Alonso. Massa is a perfect foil for Raikkonen. Fast enough to keep the Finn honest and capable of winning races in his own right. Ferrari would be mad to mess with a successful team setup.

:up:

I couldn't agree more.

[Valve Bounce]

The way I see it, Ferrari have two very good drivers. With Kimi and Massa as their drivers, Ferrari will win or lose races and or championships on the car's merits. If the car is good at any track and doesn't break down, then they will win.
Changing this driver combination will not increase their chances of winning.

So we can even look beyond Fernando, and just look at the current drivers and see the logic of retaining the current team.

Sorry to post this in a hurry - I just read Hawkmoon's post and say I agree with him with my post.

[Hondo]

Maybe what Luca meant was that because teams sometimes get "innovative and creative" in their interpretation of rules and technical specifications, he doesn't need a driver that would threaten to rat him out to the FIA when the driver is a little unhappy. Put simply, he may not trust him.

[tsarcasm]

Ferrari do have 2 very good drivers. 2 very good drivers who are not whiners....

[truefan72]

That was an interesting read. Not sure what to think about them claiming Alonso doesn't have the escape clause because I read another article last night suggesting otherwise...

I do agree that a Kimi/Alonso pairing wouldn't be good for Ferrari, but not for the reasons implied in this thread. I think both Kimi and Alonso would get on respectably together, Kimi already has to share the spotlight and attention from time to time thanks to MS, plus part of me thinks he excell when he isn't the center of all the attention. Alonso I think would work really hard to avoid the same kind of press he received last year.

I think the major problem would be that they would probably require significantly different cars to run at their best. I think Alonso's problems early last year came from not being adjusted to the Macs, and the car not doing what he asked it to do, more then any pressure from LH.

All excellent points, although I would argue that the Mac's last year were providing him race wins from the start, so whatever adjustments he didn't receive didn't affect his ability to win. Especially early last year winning in Malaysia and Monaco as well as coming in 2nd in Australia, and 3rd in Spain.