Ok too many heinous crimes

[Roamy]

Ok you have to admit this world is bullsh!t
People putting babies in microwaves.
people cutting heads off
people torturing people
wTF are you guys thinking

We need to turn the tables NOW.
Criminals need to get 10 times the torture that they commit.

They commit these terrible crimes and go to prison and get fed
and taken care of. Bullsh!t these people need to get it back and back
big!!

[Daniel]

Yeah. Because that's going to make everything that happened in the past OK isn't it!

[ShiftingGears]

And thats going to stop crime how?

[BDunnell]

As if people haven't always done awful things.

[maxu05]

I agree agree with you fousto :up: Perhaps, you may not like China, being from the US, but the peanalty for Rape, malicious murders is death. Why is vicious crime so low in China, because there are no repeat offenders. I know this will spark a debate, but that's the way I see it. Feel free to criticise my comments, but please don't get crazy and start bagging the country I choose to live in. :D Remember, that China is opening up gradually, so don't expect it to happen over night.

[BDunnell]

I agree agree with you fousto :up: Perhaps, you may not like China, being from the US, but the peanalty for Rape, malicious murders is death. Why is vicious crime so low in China, because there are no repeat offenders. I know this will spark a debate, but that's the way I see it. Feel free to criticise my comments, but please don't get crazy and start bagging the country I choose to live in. :D Remember, that China is opening up gradually, so don't expect it to happen over night.

With respect, I find the idea of taking any sort of moral lead from China rather unpalatable.

[maxu05]

See, that's the kind of thing I am talking about. This happened to Japanese after WW2. Japanese cars are rubbish, bloody Japanese, Cheap Japanese watch. Now you all have iPods, Japanese cars, Japanese computers etc, etc. So, China is not marching to GWB's tune, big deal. As I said, China is opening up to the world, but, at least give them a break, they have a lot of people to deal with, and it will take some time, and patience.

[BDunnell]

See, that's the kind of thing I am talking about. This happened to Japanese after WW2. Japanese cars are rubbish, bloody Japanese, Cheap Japanese watch. Now you all have iPods, Japanese cars, Japanese computers etc, etc. So, China is not marching to GWB's tune, big deal. As I said, China is opening up to the world, but, at least give them a break, they have a lot of people to deal with, and it will take some time, and patience.

There's a difference between opening up to the world and the sort of thing I'm talking about, namely serious human rights abuses. China can open up all it likes in an effort to seem acceptable in the run-up to the Olympics, but this will not change the fact that its regime has committed some appalling actions. I hate the idea of any country marching to Bush's tune, but, again, that's hardly the problem with China.

[anthonyvop]

With respect, I find the idea of taking any sort of moral lead from China rather unpalatable.
Almost as unpalatable as taking it from Germany.

[Daniel]

Almost as unpalatable as taking it from Germany.
What does Germany have to do with it?

[BDunnell]

Almost as unpalatable as taking it from Germany.

Please give us the benefit of your vast knowledge of European politics to inform us why you think modern, post-war Germany is in any way on a par with China. I'm looking forward to your contribution.

[BDunnell]

What does Germany have to do with it?

I think he may have cleverly noticed that I have the German flag next to my name and made the old 'Germany = Nazis' connection.

[maxu05]

I think that most countries have a chequered past that they would like to forget. The problem I have is that many are trying to sabotage the Beijing Olympics when China is trying to open up to the world. It may take 20 years for China to become a truely open society, but at least they are trying to get something done. There are many other countries that have a worse record than China, but seem to slip under the radar. Perhaps the fact that China is poised to overtake some other countries in wealth that is prompting this. I have lived here for 6 years now, and have nothing but respect for the people here. They are friendly, generous, and kind, so it really hurts when people knock China in general. I am not talking about politics, as I don't care for any politicians, non of them can be trusted. China is a country that you must see with your own eyes, not through some one eyed news broadcast.

[Daniel]

I think he may have cleverly noticed that I have the German flag next to my name and made the old 'Germany = Nazis' connection.
You use the term "cleverly" in an interesting way :p

[Breeze]

So, China is not marching to GWB's tune, big deal.
GWB didn't write the tune and he isn't the bandleader. The tune was written by the likes of Aristotle, Locke, Montesquieu, Jefferson and others like them. The bandleader is common sense.



As I said, China is opening up to the world, but, at least give them a break, they have a lot of people to deal with, and it will take some time, and patience.
It has now been over 3000 years of political oppression. How much longer do you think the Chinese will need?

[Breeze]

I have lived here for 6 years now, and have nothing but respect for the people here. They are friendly, generous, and kind, so it really hurts when people knock China in general. I am not talking about politics, .......

That is precisely why the continued rule of the Chinese Communist Party is unwarranted and indefensible.

[BDunnell]

I think that most countries have a chequered past that they would like to forget. The problem I have is that many are trying to sabotage the Beijing Olympics when China is trying to open up to the world. It may take 20 years for China to become a truely open society, but at least they are trying to get something done.

Again, I say that 'opening up to the world' isn't the point.


I have lived here for 6 years now, and have nothing but respect for the people here. They are friendly, generous, and kind, so it really hurts when people knock China in general.

Did I say anything about disliking the people of China? I don't believe so.


I am not talking about politics, as I don't care for any politicians, non of them can be trusted.

Is it not impossible to separate society and politics in China, given the central role played by the Communist Party? The same could have been said, for instance, of East Germany, another deeply unpleasant regime which did some appalling things.


China is a country that you must see with your own eyes, not through some one eyed news broadcast.

And what was the Chinese media for a very long time other than 'one-eyed'? Are you saying that if I go to China I will suddenly forget about Tiananmen Square, Tibet, the suppression of all sorts of dissent against the regime, and everything else? The notion that being more open and becoming a part of the world economy somehow overrides all of this doesn't cut much ice with me. China shows no sign of moving forward when it comes to basic human rights and freedoms, no matter how nice its people are or how competitive its economy is.

[anthonyvop]

I think he may have cleverly noticed that I have the German flag next to my name and made the old 'Germany = Nazis' connection.
I was just pointing out that virtually every group has been an oppressor at one time or the other.

[BDunnell]

I was just pointing out that virtually every group has been an oppressor at one time or the other.

Many countries have learned and moved on. China has not. By your reasoning, no country would ever condemn another for human rights abuses.

[Jag_Warrior]

They commit these terrible crimes and go to prison and get fed
and taken care of.

Or they retire to ranches in Texas... :dozey:

[anthonyvop]

Many countries have learned and moved on. China has not. By your reasoning, no country would ever condemn another for human rights abuses.
I said most.

The USA does not fall under that category. So listen up.

[Malbec]

The USA does not fall under that category. So listen up.

Why are you so insecure about being American?

[BDunnell]

I said most.

The USA does not fall under that category. So listen up.

I think that, now, the notion of the USA lecturing other nations on how to behave is somewhat intolerable owing to the moral bankruptcy of your current regime.

But, if you believe your nation's history is an example of perfection, that obviously means that it is...

[Drew]

Yup, but what can you really do about it? Unless you have the money to run for President / Prime minister, that is.

Unfortunetly it's easier to mount evidence against somebody accused of speeding than against somebody accused of rape.

The only way both could be equal is if we were all watched 24/7. I don't think most people want that, but then again I could be wrong :confused:

[BDunnell]

Unfortunetly it's easier to mount evidence against somebody accused of speeding than against somebody accused of rape.

But that's not a 'symptom of modern society'.

[Jag_Warrior]

Unfortunetly it's easier to mount evidence against somebody accused of speeding than against somebody accused of rape.

The only way both could be equal is if we were all watched 24/7. I don't think most people want that, but then again I could be wrong :confused:

But is a speeding conviction anything that will ruin your life if you're wrongly convicted? Apples and oranges there.

And anyway, with DNA testing, I don't believe that's true. Even if it's tainted or somehow inaccurate, with DNA evidence, there's every chance that you're going to go away for a long time. I've beaten many a speeding ticket. I've also lost a few. Pfft... no big deal: no harm to anyone was done.

[BDunnell]

But is a speeding conviction anything that will ruin your life if you're wrongly convicted? Apples and oranges there.

And anyway, with DNA testing, I don't believe that's true. Even if it's tainted or somehow inaccurate, with DNA evidence, there's every chance that you're going to go away for a long time. I've beaten many a speeding ticket. I've also lost a few. Pfft... no big deal: no harm to anyone was done.

:up:

[Eki]

I think he may have cleverly noticed that I have the German flag next to my name and made the old 'Germany = Nazis' connection.
What's wrong with that? When I heard anthonyvop was from Florida, I made the old "Southern States = slavery" connection.

[BDunnell]

What's wrong with that? When I heard anthonyvop was from Florida, I made the old "Southern States = slavery" connection.

I hope you didn't really.

[Daniel]

What's wrong with that? When I heard anthonyvop was from Florida, I made the old "Southern States = slavery" connection.
Me? Well I just thought he must be really old.

[anthonyvop]

This is fun!!!

[jso1985]

I said most.

The USA does not fall under that category. So listen up.

So slavery does not fall into the human rights abuse category? don't make me laugh... no country has a perfect human rights record, some like Cuba or Zimbabwe have a pretty bad one while others like Iceland or Andorra(maybe, I actually don't know their history) have a good one but noone has a perfect one

[Eki]

So slavery does not fall into the human rights abuse category? don't make me laugh... no country has a perfect human rights record, some like Cuba or Zimbabwe have a pretty bad one while others like Iceland or Andorra(maybe, I actually don't know their history) have a good one but noone has a perfect one
When Iceland accepted Christianity around year 1000, they only accepted it after they were granted the rights to continue using infanticide as a family planning method and eating horse meat. They later gave up infanticide but I don't know about horse meat.

[Schultz]

But is a speeding conviction anything that will ruin your life if you're wrongly convicted? Apples and oranges there.

And anyway, with DNA testing, I don't believe that's true. Even if it's tainted or somehow inaccurate, with DNA evidence, there's every chance that you're going to go away for a long time. I've beaten many a speeding ticket. I've also lost a few. Pfft... no big deal: no harm to anyone was done.

Rape in particular is something that I feel is not taken seriously enough in the courts in Australia. It is VERY hard to prove whether someone is the victim of rape, or aparty to consensual sex, even if DNA evidence is taken. Most people who are convicted here take plee bargains, and end up getting off on suspended sentences as a result, except of course for the most heinous and blatant cases. I think that is a disgrace to the society we live in. A victim of rape can take years and years to recover... Some don't. And for the person responsible to be able to walk away and not spend a day in jail is just an insult.

I don't think people convicted of serious crime are treated with enough contempt. There is currently a modern trend to give these people another chance and to spare them of jail time where absolutely possible, in order to give them a chance to rehabilitate. Yet, unfortunately there does not seem to be the structures in place to genuinely reform offenders. I honeslty don't care what happens, but I hope in this country serious moves are taken to either get tougher on offenders and hand out more severe jail time, or put more sources in place to help those with mental issues get back on track.

[Zico]

I agree with you Fousto.. over here at least, there seems to be no deterant, jail life is too cushy, and they are burst to overflowing. I think the problem must stem from the country being run by Lawyers or their ilk.. looking after their own.

If I was in charge of the UK Id have to be a dictator.. :D Id bring back the death penalty for murderers after a period on death row, Paedos would be castrated, drug dealers publicly flogged etc etc. Only when it was absolutely unrefutably (sp?) beyond doubt of course...

Just my opinion on whats needed..

[Roamy]

Rape in particular is something that I feel is not taken seriously enough in the courts in Australia. It is VERY hard to prove whether someone is the victim of rape, or aparty to consensual sex, even if DNA evidence is taken. Most people who are convicted here take plee bargains, and end up getting off on suspended sentences as a result, except of course for the most heinous and blatant cases. I think that is a disgrace to the society we live in. A victim of rape can take years and years to recover... Some don't. And for the person responsible to be able to walk away and not spend a day in jail is just an insult.

I don't think people convicted of serious crime are treated with enough contempt. There is currently a modern trend to give these people another chance and to spare them of jail time where absolutely possible, in order to give them a chance to rehabilitate. Yet, unfortunately there does not seem to be the structures in place to genuinely reform offenders. I honeslty don't care what happens, but I hope in this country serious moves are taken to either get tougher on offenders and hand out more severe jail time, or put more sources in place to help those with mental issues get back on track.

yea it was pretty funny - some chick shows up at Mike Tyson's hotel room at
2.00 am wearing a nightgown. So Mike screwed her. she went to the dance contest at 9.00am after that she when over and smeared the load on a swab
and put him in jail. Well this is quite different than walking out the the parking lot and getting some unwanted dick. In some cases the women put beaver in you face and claim no hunting. Well those cases should not warrant the penalty of the other outrageous crimes. It is funny as the courts cannot even seem to get on the right page. We can never get this sorted out until the courts get their heads screwed on straight. a "no" when you just took off all your clothes at 3.am is not nearly as convincing as Walmart parking lot at 3.00pm. There is forced brutal rape that should warrant the death penalty. there is I am lying next to you naked and you screwed me which doesn't warrant the death penalty. Hard job but we should be up to it

[schmenke]

.... Why is vicious crime so low in China...

From where are you getting your figures? What percentage of these crimes are actually reported in China? :mark:

[maxu05]

They have regular reports in the news of crimes on the news, and they also have police camera's that witness crimes as well, and are aired in a crimestoppers type of broadcast. There are not so many violent crimes, but we do have petty theft, and bag snatching etc. If there is a violent murder or rape for example, it is reported in the news, so it's not like they are denying there is crime here, but it is more petty stuff, occasionally there is a serious crime, but it is nipped it the bud quickly. My wife has walked home from a work party, (around 3 or 4 km away from our home) at 2am in the morning, in a city of around 5 million, with no fear at all. I have done the same many times, as we know it is quite safe to do so. I would not let my wife do this in my home town near Sydney in Australia, as it would be too risky. As for the figures, I'm not an auditor, so you will just have to take my word for it. I am an Aussie, so I am not being biased in any way, but this is from 6 years of experience living here in China.

[jso1985]

When Iceland accepted Christianity around year 1000, they only accepted it after they were granted the rights to continue using infanticide as a family planning method and eating horse meat. They later gave up infanticide but I don't know about horse meat.

Didn't know that, thanks, kinda proves my point! no country has a perfect human rights record!, but at least some respect them nowadays

[Daniel]

I'm sorry maxu. If you believe what the chinese government tells you then you're being conned. But if ignorance is bliss then good luck to you :)

[courageous]

Forget the pretence about different nations being nicer.
USA has finally had to admit to waterboarding (ah but it's not really torture...).

Despite the half hearted "protestations" UK & Germany have allowed rendition flights and are accesories to torture.

Every government picks and chooses which part of international law to apply & to which situation.

In some ways, I prefer China (at least you know what'll happen if you step out of line with the communists).

Anyway - back to the serious crimes:

The thing that annoys me is that people watch/read the news and say "society today is falling apart"
BUT
the vast majority of paeodophiles you hear about are products of the 1950's-1960's & the Isle of Man children's home case must of been carried out by children of the 1940's - kind of puts wearing a hoodie & playing loud music into perspective hmm?

[BDunnell]

Forget the pretence about different nations being nicer.
USA has finally had to admit to waterboarding (ah but it's not really torture...).

Despite the half hearted "protestations" UK & Germany have allowed rendition flights and are accesories to torture.

I don't put that alongside actually carrying out the torture, and while I abhor everything to do with this matter, there was quite a lot of ignorance about the nature of these flights for quite some time. What was done when it became clear what was happening is a rather different matter. Let's not forget, by the way, that the German government of the time refused to have anything to do with the war in Iraq.

On the more general point, though, the US cannot lay claim to any moral superiority over other nations when it pursues such policies.



The thing that annoys me is that people watch/read the news and say "society today is falling apart"
BUT
the vast majority of paeodophiles you hear about are products of the 1950's-1960's & the Isle of Man children's home case must of been carried out by children of the 1940's - kind of puts wearing a hoodie & playing loud music into perspective hmm?

:up:

I agree, though I'm sure you mean Jersey, rather than the Isle of Man.

[Garry Walker]

I agree agree with you fousto :up: Perhaps, you may not like China, being from the US, but the peanalty for Rape, malicious murders is death. Why is vicious crime so low in China, because there are no repeat offenders. I know this will spark a debate, but that's the way I see it. Feel free to criticise my comments, but please don't get crazy and start bagging the country I choose to live in. :D Remember, that China is opening up gradually, so don't expect it to happen over night.

Whilst I greatly dislike communism, I have to say that the methods practised in China regarding criminals have my 100% support. If you are a sick ****, and rape kids or kill people, then you don`t deserve to live.

[SOD]

GWB didn't write the tune and he isn't the bandleader. The tune was written by the likes of Aristotle, Locke, Montesquieu, Jefferson and others like them. The bandleader is common sense.



It has now been over 3000 years of political oppression. How much longer do you think the Chinese will need?

Since when did the shrub ever practice common sense, Washington no longer writes the tune that everyone dances to. will he try to make jesus come back before he moves to praguay (and you aren't invited :bigcry: )

[SOD]

Whilst I greatly dislike communism, I have to say that the methods practised in China regarding criminals have my 100% support. If you are a sick ****, and rape kids or kill people, then you don`t deserve to live.

your utopia is not far from becoming a reality

http://abcnews.go.com/TheLaw/story?id=4537765&page=1

[Jag_Warrior]

In addition to the severe penalties, I would say the crime in China, or lack thereof, has as much to do with the culture as the criminal justice system.

But that's not why I chimed in. These Google ads are cracking me up. There are 5 Chinese girls listed at the bottom of this page from Chnlove.com. What kinda mailorder bride service is this place turning into?! But uh... where is Zhejiang and how tall is 160 cm? Maybe like Nino Barlini, I better get two of them, since they might be small.

[tmx]

When Iceland accepted Christianity around year 1000, they only accepted it after they were granted the rights to continue using infanticide as a family planning method and eating horse meat. They later gave up infanticide but I don't know about horse meat.
Oh really, I have to go out and buy myself some horse meat and have a barbeque. Let me pick up some dog meat at the Asia market as well.

I think some of you are too harsh with the death penalty, I think it should only be consider for murder cases ans some special cases. I think it's hard to decide on another person life, and frankly I don't think I would elect some of you into any position of power to make those judgements. I do not feel like more draconian punishment will help, if you look at Flordia for example, most death penalty out of all states, some executed were innocent, still crazy stuff kept happening, and they recently passes a law that allow homeowner to more freely shoot at the tresspassers, I don't disagree with individual safety, but I think it made some of the populous more gun happy.

I too am concerned with how criminals can get away and have it easy in courts at times with the American justice system, especially when they have money. Another big problem today is that people who run for justice offices has begun to campaign (justice is supposed to be blind). But on the other sense, we have very poor laws for minor offenses, such as small possession of illegal drugs. The US kept filling up the prison and it is completely full. Five of the US states are now spending more money for prison than education. Rhodes Island spent on average $65,000USD per prisoner a year. A low class and lower middle class person do not make that money. I just want whoever the next president of US have some serious speaking to the Congress about the education of America, because it is totally **** right now. I wouldn't mind if they give the airport securities some education too.


In addition to the severe penalties, I would say the crime in China, or lack thereof, has as much to do with the culture as the criminal justice system.

But that's not why I chimed in. These Google ads are cracking me up. There are 5 Chinese girls listed at the bottom of this page from Chnlove.com. What kinda mailorder bride service is this place turning into?! But uh... where is Zhejiang and how tall is 160 cm? Maybe like Nino Barlini, I better get two of them, since they might be small.
I find it quite unbeleivable and astounding that there aren't enough public awareness in the media about these issues to the West. The sex slave trade in Phillipine and Thailand for example. And in Taiwan aswell, child sex slave, forced labor, even man slavery, there is a seriously case of Vietnamese "bride slavery" since they do not given any protection from the goverment. If anything pissed me off that gets my emotions taken over it is this topic.

[tmx]

But that's not why I chimed in. These Google ads are cracking me up. There are 5 Chinese girls listed at the bottom of this page from Chnlove.com. What kinda mailorder bride service is this place turning into?! But uh... where is Zhejiang and how tall is 160 cm? Maybe like Nino Barlini, I better get two of them, since they might be small. Btw, it's just a dating site, were you expected the Emperor's Club? (joking)

[Magnus]

It may be that you have a point TMX. I have considered the deathpenalty as an option, at times, but always bounce back to the conclusion that governments never can allow themselves to kill their own citizens. Even more so since innocent people from time to time end up on Death Row.
Since it also have no effect when it comes to serious crime, it is mostly a question of saving money. But that can´t be much. You have to stay on death row anyway for 10-15 years, and that costs a lot of money aswell.

From a psycological POV I also mean that the deathpenalty makes a society tougher. In strange subcultures you become an even tougher bloke amongst the guys in the hood if you also risk a deathpenalty by your actions. A more severe puinishment for this crowd would be to sentence them to life in a fluffy cell full of teddybears and soft drinks.

At the end of the line most of the people who end up with death penalty or a life-sentence have more or less serious mental issues. They are sick people. We should not kill sick people IMHO.

Last of all, but not least, there is the religious issue. I am not a religious person myself, even though I wouldn´t mind; it is just that I do not find it plausible for the time being that the universe is of an intelligent design. I have the deepest respect for people who a religous though, and a bit jealous; it must be very comforting to know that someone cares, and that there is a higher purpose of life.
A part from this: the US is a country where God takes a strong position. It is almost taken for granted that if you are a ordinary citizen, then you should put your trust in God. This strong christianity has historically been accompanied by a pretty tough punative system. It is probably because if you belive in good or evil, then you are also aware that there is an ongoing battle between the two forces, and that you should take every possibility of helping the good side out.

The downeffect of this is that people thus get labeled "bad" or "evil", and in the other range "good". We humans tend to try to live up to who we think we are and who others think we are, and we usually play our parts in the movie well, so to speak. The strong religious forces in coutries like the US thus causes a polarisation of society. If you once have fallen behind the border to the bad country, then you are most likely to end up there for the rest of your life. And if you and most other people consider you as bad, what is the prupose if doing anything about? You can´t change it, because higher powers have alreday decided your life.

These are general problem which comes with the good sides of a strong faith. What puzzles me is that conservative forces are amongst the most positive persons regarding the death penalty. I can see that it is a part of a fight against evil and bad persons, and I can respect it. But the bible says very neat that "You shall not kill". Even so ít is mostly the religious people of the US who are in favour of breaking maybe the most important rule of the ten commandments, and not only in the US.
I do not understand it.

[Daniel]

The thing is it's a retrospective punishment so it's never going to work. Plus there's also the fact that a lot of people will think they will never get caught so they will feel that the punishment doesn't apply to them because they will never face it.

Who here thinks. Yeah OK I might kill that person because I'll only get 20 something years in a maximum security jail rather than getting the death penalty.

[leopard]

Who here thinks. Yeah OK I might kill that person because I'll only get 20 something years in a maximum security jail rather than getting the death penalty.
Neither of them are preferred choice, is there the better one? :)

[Daniel]

Neither of them are preferred choice, is there the better one? :)
Not killing someone :)

[Mark]

Well quite, when someone commits a murder, rape, whatever, they aren't thinking about the tarrif they might get if found guilty, the most they are considering is getting caught.

[Camelopard]

But the bible says very neat that "You shall not kill".


OK so where does an eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth fit in? I think revenge plays a very big part in a lot of people's psyche (sp?).

Just recently here in Australia a driver who lost control of his car, ran of the road and unfortunately killed 6 teenagers was sentenced to 10 years jail (I think). Parents and supporters of the ones that were killed were horrified that in their eyes such a lenient sentence was given.

I realise that this is different to willfull murder or rape etc, but would have sentencing the driver to 30 years or so been the right decision, after all his life is probably down the tubes as well and those killed won't be coming back.

Coincidently I just saw this on a news website:

http://www.news.com.au/story/0,23599,23500251-29277,00.html

A jury last month acquitted the Perth man of Mr Barr's manslaughter, even though he admitted he had punched Arran following an argument.

Arran Barr died 11 weeks later in hospital from a torn left vertebral artery.


At the time of the offence, the teenager was on a community release order for other "brutal" assaults and had committed a string of previous offences.

"You are a real danger to the community," Justice McCann told him.

[Mark]

Well there is certainly a debate in this country as to if the tarrif you receive should be dependant upon your crime or the results of your crime.

For example.

Case 1: You fall asleep at the wheel and drive into a ditch and injure nobody but write off your car.
Case 2: You fall asleep at the wheel, plunge down a railway embankment and get hit by an express train killing dozens of people. (This actually happened)

Both are identical 'crimes', but should both carry identical punishments?

[Camelopard]

Well there is certainly a debate in this country as to if the tarrif you receive should be dependant upon your crime or the results of your crime.

For example.

Case 1: You fall asleep at the wheel and drive into a ditch and injure nobody but write off your car.
Case 2: You fall asleep at the wheel, plunge down a railway embankment and get hit by an express train killing dozens of people. (This actually happened)

Both are identical 'crimes', but should both carry identical punishments?

What was the result of the train accident, I do remember the accident but never heard what the punishment was.

[Mark]

"Hart was tried on ten counts of causing death by dangerous driving (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Death_by_dangerous_driving). On 13 December (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/December_13) 2001 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2001) he was found guilty, and sentenced to five years' imprisonment. He was released after serving half his sentence, for cooperation."

[Magnus]

I believe, camelolepard, that it is of outmost importance for a judical system to as far as possible neglect the will of relatives. This may sound harsh, but revenge is a extremely primitive feeling which I belive have no place what so ever in a modern society. On the other hand it is understandable if people want the perpetrator to feel pain for what he has done. But you will never kill your own pain by giving someone else pain. You just doubble it. weak people commit crime, and if you want to break him, treat him bad, and he will porbably and up even worse.
As a relative to someone who has been raped, or even been killed, you are probably in no state to have any greater thoughts about legislation as a whole, or about the punitive system. You want revenge. And revenge is never anything good from any POV.

From my point of view the punitive system shall be a system of mostly mental health care. the people we lock away for robberys, rapes etc. will at some point reenter our society. If we have broken them in prison, they will be even more inclined to commit crimes and to cause us "normal" citizens pain.

I would also again like to point out that we here on this forum from time to time speeds on motorways and other roads. from the societys POV this is a very bad risktaking, which costs lives and countless tragedies. It is just that in our social context it is quite alright to be speeding now and then. never the less it costs lives every day. What shall we do with us forumers then, who think we are such a great drivers and have no respect for other peoples life? Lock us away for life, or find ways to get us aware of our own mortality and the possible consequences of speeding on public roads?

[leopard]

Road accident might be different thing, although it has big consequence can we categorize it as crime? those who want to have accident deliberately only exist in story of drama. While in real life it happens only to those commit suicide, although usually they do it themselves and not at the risk of others life.

Those have to responsible for crime in jail, as long as they have strong commitment to have another normal life, we should accept them in our society.
The problem is there any guarantee that they will stop doing the same crime then? There are typical of persons who keep trying to put others they dislike in trouble or terrorized. The more we treat them nicely it won't be automatically they will do the same to us. We might not hope they treat us nicely, it's good enough if they do not disturb our life.

However we can only make self introspection that revenge will never give us a happy and great life.

[leopard]

The problem is there any guarantee that they will stop doing the same crime then? There are typical of persons who keep trying to put others they dislike in trouble or terrorized. it should be written as 'in trouble or intimidated' considering this is not discussion about terrorism. :)