Loeb or Makinen

[FIA]

Who would be the better man, Sebastien Loeb or Tommi Makienen?

This is like the Senna/Schumacher question of rallying.

[BDunnell]

Loeb's achievements are stunning, but the WRC isn't as competitive now as it was when Makinen was winning championships. I find it impossible to answer such a question with any degree of certainty. I mean, who is to say that Walter Röhrl wasn't better than either? The fact that he drove in an era when not being able to win every single type of event on the calendar doesn't make him inferior.

[Brown, Jon Brow]

Good question!

But it is impossible to answer. The WRC is so much different today than it was 10 years ago. However, Loeb has consistency that seems to make him stand out!

[TKM]

Neither. Tommi won only with Mitsubishi, and Loeb only with Citroen. Kankkunen is your man. He won the WRC 4 times with 3 different manufacturers.

Well that's my opinion anyway.

[duff]

but kankunnen never could drive well enough on tarmac and was constantly outdriven by his team mates (mostly in the later years).
I'm sure Loeb could win in any car in any era but he does drive extremely straight and he looks a little uncomfortable when a more sideways style is necessary (as it was in Tommi’s era), and we all saw how much trouble Tommi (and Colin, and Richard and Carlos) had coming to grips with the new style of WRCars and the required no sideways tarmac-esque driving style.

Who would be better in the same equipment in the same era at the peak of their game? We’ll never know...

[DonJippo]

Neither. Tommi won only with Mitsubishi, and Loeb only with Citroen. Kankkunen is your man. He won the WRC 4 times with 3 different manufacturers.

I agree and he would have had over 30 WRC victories if there were not been any team orders.

[BDunnell]

but kankunnen never could drive well enough on tarmac and was constantly outdriven by his team mates (mostly in the later years).

Yes, the lack of tarmac pace unfortunately counts Kankkunen out as far as I'm concerned. This is not to dispute his brilliance, of course.

[AndyRAC]

Yes, the lack of tarmac pace unfortunately counts Kankkunen out as far as I'm concerned. This is not to dispute his brilliance, of course.

And remember he won the last Group B WRC in 1986, then Group A in 1987. First win in Safari 1985, final win in 1999 1,000 Lakes. Drove all kinds of cars, and all types of Rallies. Loeb has only done the short sprint type events.

[wwbroe]

And he never complained about the car's handling. Even if the car was a dissaster he still said in interviews "the car is perfect". You don't find that kind of spirit nowadays. Now if something is a little bit wrong with the car the pilot is allready complaining. In my opinion he was certainly one of the greatest drivers ever. :s pin:

[koko0703]

Both are great drivers, but if you talk about the great driver in the post Gr.B era, Sainz deserves to be compared with Tommi and Loeb. OK, Carlos only has 2 titles but it's not just the number of titles which decide who is the greatest.

[tmx]

Whoa, your name is FIA, trying to open a can of worms and bring in the loeb fans?

Out of all the onboard videos I have ever seen, I have not seen anyone having the attacking attidude like Makinen, except McRae. He is also very good with tactics and knowing the right time to attack and takes a large chunk of time off the competition (portugal 2001). Also won Safari at first try I believe.

[duff]

but kankunnen never could drive well enough on tarmac and was constantly outdriven by his team mates (mostly in the later years).


I should also add that he is definitely one of the greats. Nobody has made driving a car on gravel look so natural and easy. He never seemed to be flustered behind the wheel, even when he was heading for the scenery.

I agree that Carlos should be thrown into the argument (50% podiums!), and also McRae (incredible speed and talent). But lets not forget Marcus either, if he had started his works career as young as some of the guys do now (I think he was 31?) he would surely have a lot more wins and possibly another title or two.

The list (and the argument) could go on, but the record books will show Loeb as the greatest - at least for a fair while to come.

[pino]

Both are among the best ever but I would say Makinen, because he had a lot more contenders to fight against. But I rate KKK (and a couple of more) much higher than both of them :D

[teufel]

I agree and he would have had over 30 WRC victories if there were not been any team orders.

You mean Argentina '99? ;)

[WillemW]

Each era has it's own champion, you can't compare it. I'm following WRC since 1985 but never compared two drivers. Makkinen was a class on it's own then, Loeb is now.

[Fang]

Neither. Tommi won only with Mitsubishi, and Loeb only with Citroen. Kankkunen is your man. He won the WRC 4 times with 3 different manufacturers.

Well that's my opinion anyway.

My first thought when reading this post was both Loeb and Makkinen won their titles with the same manufacturer. This IMO is the most objective test of a drivers ability.

[BDunnell]

And remember he won the last Group B WRC in 1986, then Group A in 1987. First win in Safari 1985, final win in 1999 1,000 Lakes. Drove all kinds of cars, and all types of Rallies. Loeb has only done the short sprint type events.

That is true too. I would always tend to rate someone like Kankkunen over such as Loeb for that very reason, but I feel that Loeb would probably be successful on longer events too, because he does seem mechanically sympathetic to the car.

[jonkka]

Both are great drivers, but if you talk about the great driver in the post Gr.B era, Sainz deserves to be compared with Tommi and Loeb. OK, Carlos only has 2 titles but it's not just the number of titles which decide who is the greatest.

Carlos and Tommi are only several hundred meters away from having three titles each.

Number of titles is somewhat shaky grounds for comparison. Or does anyone think that Tommi is four times better driver than McRae, their titles being four to one in Tommi's favour (but McRae having one WRC win more than Tommi)?

[jonkka]

My first thought when reading this post was both Loeb and Makkinen won their titles with the same manufacturer. This IMO is the most objective test of a drivers ability.

If diversity is the gauge, then the single time champion Hannu Mikkola is your choice. He is the only driver who has won WRC events with five different makes.

[WRCfan]

One guy who was fast as hell on any surface was Henri Toivonen, as he was coming into his own he was lightning fast, he was cut short unfortunately, however had he continued he would have turned into the most famous driver of all time I feel.

[rwssport]

As has already been said this is the Senna/Schumacher question of rallying - both great drivers but from different "eras"...

[N.O.T]

Makinen isn't even worthy to carry Loebs spare tyre....

A better comparison would be Loeb and Kankkunen.

[BDunnell]

If diversity is the gauge, then the single time champion Hannu Mikkola is your choice. He is the only driver who has won WRC events with five different makes.

And he was pretty good on tarmac at times, too.

(Shame he crashed his Mazda on the 1988 RAC, otherwise it would have been six makes.)

[Josti]

One guy who was fast as hell on any surface was Henri Toivonen, as he was coming into his own he was lightning fast, he was cut short unfortunately, however had he continued he would have turned into the most famous driver of all time I feel.

True, but at most times he was dribbled by his own mistakes. Only at Lancia did he perform more consistent. Undoubtly he would have been a champion, though I would have guessed him to retire at an earlier stage, given his physical conditions.

But like many said, a Tommi/Seb comparison is unworthy to make. I agree with many that Kankkunen should be rated above these two. Let alone his titles and victories, he was a very consistent driver and never really complained when things got thougher. Like DonJippo said, he could have won more if it wasn't for teamorders (for example Monte '87). Even scoring points with Hyundai up until 2002 says something. And count it or not, Juha was someone with a true character, which is a thing I miss in most drivers these days.

But at the end of the day, I don't believe in rating someone as best driver ever. There are just too many factors that make it impossibile to say.

[WRCfan]

We all have a favourite of course although when you sit back and think about choosing one driver, it is impossible. I read just after I posted above "Mikkola" then i thought, damn how can you put one driver over another, Toivonen over Mikkola or even the other way around. Both were fantastic but in such different ways/cars...

Loeb VS Makinen - It's hard/almost impossible to compare them.

[FAL]

Since this has drifted into "greatest rally driver of all time", it seems too many are too young to understand that it was Kankkunen's mentor, Timo Makinen who was for a long time the driver all other top drivers acknowledged as faster than them. I do not belive that particular status has been achieved by any other driver since. Henri Toivonen might have made it if he had lived - he was, from my direct experience, a "difficult" character in the same mould as Timo, after all.

[Karukera]

As far as numbers are concerned, then Loeb is the pick :

4 times Champion, 38 wins, best % of wins vs Starts, 17 different rallies won, that's 4 more than the second best : Sainz, and last, the perfect balance of 50% of his wins on tarmac and 50% on loose surfaces which betters by far all of the fantastic past champions.

But, like said different eras... and no comparison with F1, ain't no such different surfaces.

I think it'd be more interesting to determine an ultimate top ranking.

And who cares if whether or not one won his 2 titles with a 206WRC or with 2, 3, 4 different cars or took 95.8% of his wins in a Mitsubishi GPA or 100% in a Citroën ? That's BS excuses. :p :

[dimviii]

difficult to choose :D

but if i have to choose one of them is going to be Tommi
the reason is way more spectacular than Loeb.
and the only finn with a ss attack could beat every tarmac expert.
Loeb can not do it in gravel :D

[Nenukknak]

I'm not going to answer this question, it can't be done. The mechanical side has to much an impact. The cars are so strong nowadays, yet the rallies so short. Mechanical failure is far less an issue then in the old days. Also the amount of rallies driven in a year is far greater. So easier to rack up big numbers. Not that's not a great achievement by Loeb. But its like M.Schumacher when asked if it meant that he was better than the great Fangio. You just cannot compare the two.

But for me any of the greatest will always be one that had to nurture his car when needed, drive flat out when needed, drive at night, and sadly in todays WRC that is no longer the case. So sorry Mr. Loeb you will never be the greatest.

[BDunnell]

I'm not going to answer this question, it can't be done. The mechanical side has to much an impact. The cars are so strong nowadays, yet the rallies so short. Mechanical failure is far less an issue then in the old days. Also the amount of rallies driven in a year is far greater. So easier to rack up big numbers. Not that's not a great achievement by Loeb. But its like M.Schumacher when asked if it meant that he was better than the great Fangio. You just cannot compare the two.

But for me any of the greatest will always be one that had to nurture his car when needed, drive flat out when needed, drive at night, and sadly in todays WRC that is no longer the case. So sorry Mr. Loeb you will never be the greatest.

:up: to all of that.

[Zico]

but kankunnen never could drive well enough on tarmac and was constantly outdriven by his team mates (mostly in the later years).
I'm sure Loeb could win in any car in any era but he does drive extremely straight and he looks a little uncomfortable when a more sideways style is necessary (as it was in Tommi’s era), and we all saw how much trouble Tommi (and Colin, and Richard and Carlos) had coming to grips with the new style of WRCars and the required no sideways tarmac-esque driving style.

Who would be better in the same equipment in the same era at the peak of their game? We’ll never know...

Thats my take on it too.. totaly different way of driving these modern active centre diff cars.. they reward smooth circuit race car style driving where as before pre-active diff, the balancing of the cars all had to be achieved manually by weight transfer and as you say Duff.. precisely the reason why many (but not all) of the previous generation of drivers suffered, though I'd say Carlos faired better than most.

[TKM Jnr]

Also Carlos got the record for rally wins when there was only 8 rounds to the WRC. Loeb got his record over the years there was 16 rounds to it.

[Lalo]

Take Sèb to the old ages of WRC without so much technology around and we'll see

[N.O.T]

Take Sèb to the old ages of WRC without so much technology around and we'll see

yes yes....a few years back it was the active diffs that made him fast....

[janez l.]

Makinen isn't even worthy to carry Loebs spare tyre....

You forgot to take your medicine (again)!

[janez l.]

it is funny how some people on this forum can be offensive and when you give them a shot of their own medicine your post gets deleted

saying a four time world champion isn't even worthy to carry Loebs spare tyre is just plain rude and shows how some live in a universe of their own...

[pino]

it is funny how some people on this forum can be offensive and when you give them a shot of their own medicine your post gets deleted

saying a four time world champion isn't even worthy to carry Loebs spare tyre is just plain rude and shows how some live in a universe of their own...

Dear friend, this is a free forum where everyone has the right to criticise any drivers...and you are not allowed to insult them for that. Make sure you remember that !

[N.O.T]

it is funny how some people on this forum can be offensive and when you give them a shot of their own medicine your post gets deleted

saying a four time world champion isn't even worthy to carry Loebs spare tyre is just plain rude and shows how some live in a universe of their own...

i didn't read your comment....if it was aiming at me i wouldn't mind seeing it and i wouldn't also understand why you would be insulted because of my comments to another driver and not yourself.

I stand by my word and i think that Makinen is a numbers king and nothing more...if it wasn;t for the insane favouritism he had at mitsubishi he would be nowhere......and he showed that when he moved into a winning team with a capable 2nd driver for his first time in his life...he was beaten into retirment !!!!

[Roy]

i...
I stand by my word and i think that Makinen is a numbers king and nothing more...if it wasn;t for the insane favouritism he had at mitsubishi he would be nowhere......and he showed that when he moved into a winning team with a capable 2nd driver for his first time in his life...he was beaten into retirment !!!!

How could you say that Makinen is less then Loeb? Loeb is driving for the same team in many years!

If you say Makinens World Championship is nothing or less worth, because he is beaten by other team mates when he skipped Mitsu. for Subaru, then you couldn't say Loeb is better.
First Loeb has be proven to be fast in other WRC Team. If he is fast in another WRCar, you have a good argument. For now, it is really bad.

[Zico]

I stand by my word and i think that Makinen is a numbers king and nothing more...if it wasn;t for the insane favouritism he had at mitsubishi he would be nowhere......

You lay your argument on very unstable foundations my friend... One could argue the same of Loeb being Citroens golden boy and his achievements as a number king due to the number of events in the current WRC callendar. The only thing missing is his move to another team.. should be interesting to see what the future brings.

The fact remains that the WRC then was far more challenging in terms of the number of elite drivers back then, to insult Tomi in such a way is also an insult to all of them.

[pantealex]

When (and if) Loeb wins in Finland I would say he´s better, but until that Tommi is better of those two, because he has win in France (MonteCarlo stages run in France)
Juha Matti Pellervo is better than those two!

[N.O.T]

Loeb beat teammates who where world champions and had life in them still......Mcrae Sainz and young hopefulls like Sordo...who has tommi beat ???? Loix ?? a newcomer burns ?? and when he moved to subaru where no Lampi was there to do his magic he got beaten into shame and retirement !!! Paper Champion.

Gronholm or Kankkunen are far better comparisons to Loeb than Tommi.....

[Woodeye]

Loeb beat teammates who where world champions and had life in them still......Mcrae Sainz and young hopefulls like Sordo...who has tommi beat ???? Loix ?? a newcomer burns ?? and when he moved to subaru where no Lampi was there to do his magic he got beaten into shame and retirement !!! Paper Champion.

Gronholm or Kankkunen are far better comparisons to Loeb than Tommi.....

And I always thought that main purpose of driving in WRC is to win the championship and not only to beat your teammate. Tommi won the title 4 times.

When he moved to Subaru he was already "cooling down" I think. Petter was faster than Tommi then, but now that Atkinson is faster than Petter does it mean that Atkinson is faster than Tommi is? I doubt that.

[N.O.T]

When he moved to Subaru he was already "cooling down" I think.

I don;t see any cooling down from Mr Loeb after 4 titles....

Your team mate shows you level of skill better than everybody, the overprotected Tommi never had a worthy team mate (hence the 1 mistu manufacturer ttile in the 4 years of his Farce) and also he always was receiving the best from Mr lampi. and you compare that man to Loeb ???? on second thought carrying the spare tyre or Mr Loeb is a bit too much of task for tommi.....

[DonJippo]

Your team mate shows you level of skill better than everybody, the overprotected Tommi never had a worthy team mate (hence the 1 mistu manufacturer ttile in the 4 years of his Farce) and also he always was receiving the best from Mr lampi. and you compare that man to Loeb ???? on second thought carrying the spare tyre or Mr Loeb is a bit too much of task for tommi.....

So you say his achievements should be measured only against his useless team-mates? And not against drivers like, Colin McRae, Carlos Sainz, Didier Auriol, Richard Burns, Piero Liatti, Kenneth Eriksson, Juha Kankkunen and co who he beat during the years he won his titles? Yeah right :rolleyes:

Also you should skip the legend about a test driver having such a big influence in a team that you claim Lasse Lampi had. It's just a story the supporters of these useless team mates of Tommi made up to cover up the lack of the skill their idols had.

[N.O.T]

So you say his achievements should be measured only against his useless team-mates? And not against drivers like, Colin McRae, Carlos Sainz, Didier Auriol, Richard Burns, Piero Liatti, Kenneth Eriksson, Juha Kankkunen and co who he beat during the years he won his titles? Yeah right :rolleyes:

Also you should skip the legend about a test driver having such a big influence in a team that you claim Lasse Lampi had. It's just a story the supporters of these useless team mates of Tommi made up to cover up the lack of the skill their idols had.

again you miss the point.....Makinen was a world class driver and deserved 1-2 champiosnhips....but the comparison to loeb is not valid. Colin carlos and didier were never in a team which heavily favoured them (maybe only carlos)

And how do you expalin his performance in the Subaru which again was No1 until he was beaten senseless by Solberg ??? Lasse Lampi fade into oblivion after Makinen left mitsu.....

we are talikng about legends of the sport here not legends of the numbers....Loeb manages to combine these two.

And for the record my favourite of all times and the greatest in my Book is kankkunen despite the fact that wasn't able to win on tarmac...the guy managed to win in every car imaginable and his legend spanned through 3 different eras not just 3 decades (2 and a half to be exact) !!!

[cosmicpanda]

As pointed out by World Rally Radio, it is interesting that Loeb has been fast in Citroen where almost nobody else has been since. Sainz and Sordo have been able to get podiums and the occaisional win (eg. Sainz in Argentina) but put others in the car, eg. Pons, McRae, Duval, and they're slow or break it through accident damage or mechanical failure.

[koko0703]

Loeb has his own team at Citroen just like Makinen did at Mitsubishi. I agree that Loeb had more competitive teammates like Colin, Carlos, Duval, Sordo, but none of his teammates was go-to guy for Citroen because Loeb was the go-to guy even in 2003. So I wouldn't say Makinen had advantage being the center of Mitsu in his golden years.

[AndyRAC]

I'm not in anybody's corner, though I'd vote for Kankkunen. I'm not sure Makinen would be quick in a Le Mans car, and remember Loeb was quick in the Renault F1 car. Loeb is probably the greatest Motorsport driver at the current time - he's quick in everything.

[Zico]

I'm not in anybody's corner, though I'd vote for Kankkunen. I'm not sure Makinen would be quick in a Le Mans car, and remember Loeb was quick in the Renault F1 car. Loeb is probably the greatest Motorsport driver at the current time - he's quick in everything.

Tomi was quick on tarmac but as he has never tried GT or F1 I guess we'll never know.
I do believe most of the WDC rally drivers we've had over the years would prove quick in a F1 car, especially a TC equipped F1 car as in Loebs case. Unfortunately very few, as far as Im aware, other than Colin and Seb, have had the opportunity.

[Leon]

Tomi was quick on tarmac but as he has never tried GT or F1 I guess we'll never know.

Tomi drove the Winfield Williams F1 and if I remember he had an off...

[Zico]

Tomi drove the Winfield Williams F1 and if I remember he had an off...

Interesting, wasnt aware of that and google brings up nothing. Do you have a link?

[AndyRAC]

Tomi drove the Winfield Williams F1 and if I remember he had an off...

Yeah, it was at Catalunya in 1998 I think. He got the gear shift paddles mixed up and instead of changing up he changed down while coming down the main straight I think. Whoops!!!

[Zico]

Found it..

"Driving a Formula One car is very difficult as demonstrated by both Michael
Doohan and Tommi Makinen this week. On Wednesday Michael Doohan - 500cc motorcycle world champion - tested Villeneuve's 1997 championship-winning car and spun off after four corners at the Catalunya track near Barcelona.
Today Tommi Makinen - reigning world rally champion - managed to do eight
laps when he spun off while doing 175 mph. "I am so disappointed," Makinen
said afterwards. "At around 175 mph I tried to change up a gear from fifth
to sixth but thought I was in my rally car and tried to change down and all
I could do was wait until I stopped spinning." Both escaped unhurt - the
car didn't. Jacques Villeneuve wanted to drive the Mitsubishi and the 500cc
motorcycle but Frank Williams didn't let him as he didn't want the Canadian
to get injured. "I know Jacques a little," Frank Williams said. "He'll try
to smash the lap record - he does everything on full speed and I can't risk
it."

https://www-auth.cs.wisc.edu/lists/vfr/1998-April/msg02094.shtml

The Williams paddleshift a reversal of his rallycars?... nightmare!

[RAS007]

I would vote for Kankkunen. Loeb/Makinen makes an interesting comparison on one hand: 1. Both were very much at the centre on their respective team's plans and 2. Other drivers /team mates had great difficulty in adapting to the same cars which Makinen and Loeb were/are so successful in.

On the other hand, I do not think that it is possible to compare Makinen's success with Loeb's. All you need to do is look at the number of manufacturers and top flight drivers who were competing during Makinen's reign, versus Loeb's. Makinen's reign took place on a very, very different different playing field from the one Loeb dominates today.

[RAS007]

A better comparison would be Loeb and Kankkunen.

:laugh:

You have got to be kidding, surely?