Andretti Green moves to purchase Toronto Race

[xander918]

http://www.tsn.ca/auto_racing/news_story/?ID=232321&hubname=auto_racing

TSN.ca Staff

3/18/2008 4:49:46 PM

Toronto's chances of being placed on the 2009 IndyCar schedule just got a whole lot better following the announcement that Andretti Green Promotions has signed a letter of intent to purchase the assets of the Grand Prix Association of Toronto.

The terms of the sale have not been disclosed.

Andretti Green Promotions, which is a wholly-owned subsidiary of Andretti Green Racing which is co-owned by Michael Andretti, Kim Green and Kevin Savoree, has until the end of April to decide if they want to enter into a purchase agreement.

"Toronto is a place that I have always loved," said Andretti, a seven-time winner on the streets of Toronto.

"It's a great racetrack and a great venue. Racing there was always the highlight of my year and it's exciting to think that we're exploring the possibility of owning the event. If we were able to put a deal together to own and operate an event in Toronto, I would certainly count that as another win there, for sure."

The Grand Prix of Toronto has been one of the mainstays of North American open-wheel racing, dating back to 1986. Following the merger between the IRL and Champ Car, the 2008 event had to be postponed because a suitable date could not be found to hold the race.

"The expressed interest by Andretti Green Promotions to own the Grand Prix of Toronto speaks volumes to the stature this event maintains in open wheel racing in North America," said current CEO and president Charlie Johnson. "We look forward to working with Michael, Kim, Kevin and their team over the course of the next several weeks to pull this off."

Since 2005, Andretti Green Promotions has run the race in St. Petersburg, Florida which was the first non-oval IRL event.

[tbyars]

This one is going to send a a whole lot of "fans" at that other site into hysterics. As much as they have whined about Toronto not being picked up for this year, now we come to find out that one of their very favorite people, Michael Andretti, may be a big part of the puzzle that gets it back on the schedule.

[994ever]

This one is going to send a a whole lot of "fans" at that other site into hysterics. As much as they have whined about Toronto not being picked up for this year, now we come to find out that one of their very favorite people, Michael Andretti, may be a big part of the puzzle that gets it back on the schedule.


Does Michael saying nice things about Toronto mean I think he's any less a jerk? Nope. Does the fact that I think he's a jerk mean that it isn't nice for me that he wants to bring the race back? Nope.

[the bro]

Thank You Michael

[JasonD]

I cant STAND Michael Andretti BUT (as selfish as this is) I am quite happy that someone is moving in on this to save the race!

[nigelred5]

The whiners at crapwagon have to realize that king whiner's last name, his 7 wins as a driver and his Honda connection brings credibility that it's current owners have very little of right now. They are apparently doing a good job in St Pete, so I have hope they can pull it together if the series wil guarantee them a date.

[namarow]

The major issue is that Toronto has one of the stupidist mayors going who is so anti car it is unreal. Any city that has a major event like this has a mayor who is there working it. Our Mayor does not attend, Infact our moron city council allowed a huge street festival to happen up the road for FREE killingthe walk up crowd a few years back.

It will be tough getting it back with these stupid jerks running things here. Maybe the city missing the millions of dollars this signature event brings in will reconsider just how stupid they are.

Can you tell how I feel about our mayor and council??

[millencolin]

Does Michael saying nice things about Toronto mean I think he's any less a jerk? Nope. Does the fact that I think he's a jerk mean that it isn't nice for me that he wants to bring the race back? Nope.

well said

[Marbles]

For me, Toronto is a no-brainer! It should be considered "Long Beach North". Although attendance has lagged the last few years it is still well attended and a rejuvinated open-wheel well certainly help. It's a huge market and provides great racing. Possibly the best street course AOW has. A CC thread last year about favourite corners in racing had Toronto mentioned time and time again. It is also a favourite amongst the drivers. It is extremely TV friendly. There is nary a camera shot of the track in which either a crowded grand stand or general admission can't be seen in the background or track-side.

Surprised it didn't get more mention in the "tracks that should stay or go" thread as a keeper.

[MAX_THRUST]

Regardless of my personal feelings for Mikey, it is clear he feels this is an important event for bringing in old CCWS fans into the Indy car family. Again it shows how much both series wanted to be like CART was, without all the crap that went with it at that time.

This would be a good move for the series, and I have to commend him on it. I think we need to thank his DAd though....

[garyshell]

Does Michael saying nice things about Toronto mean I think he's any less a jerk? Nope. Does the fact that I think he's a jerk mean that it isn't nice for me that he wants to bring the race back? Nope.


Amen, brother. Amen.

Gary

[BenRoethig]

Regardless of my personal feelings for Mikey, it is clear he feels this is an important event for bringing in old CCWS fans into the Indy car family. Again it shows how much both series wanted to be like CART was, without all the crap that went with it at that time.

This would be a good move for the series, and I have to commend him on it. I think we need to thank his DAd though....

Its also important to bringing the old Indycar and CART fans who left back into the fold. Toronto is a classic.

[weeflyonthewall]

Shouldn't Kim Green and Kevin Savoree deserve most of the credit here? Its a natural extension of St. Petes.

[nigelred5]

In the late 80's and early 90's Penske owned what 4 tracks,an in house chassis shop, campained two,sometimes three cars and drivers, controlling interest and first dibs at the latest Ilmor engines, one of the most coveted sponsors in racing history, a percentage of the series and had dominant seasons on track. Mikey and his team are doing nothing different in the IRL that Penske did in the CART days. If everyone is so attached to the Toronto event and AGR can save the event from what appears as an otherwise certain doom, shouldn't all of the haters give it a chance. There is no 3r d alternative folks.

the crappies need to either accept the series and it's participants that actually want to salvage something of an event that has been allowed to rot away or log off and quit pissin on everyone's wheaties. We know it was all a power struggle, we know the cars arent' the best, we know KK sold the series down the river. What's gonn a change that? CCWS is done, gone, dead. I was always a major fan, but I'm a realist and apparently AGR is able to scrape up enough money to put on a race in StPete that CCWS apparently wasn't able to, so I'm welcoming the effort in Toronto. Maybe one day I can even return to actually liking MA again. I've read AGR has also expressed interest in the Las vegas event as well. IMHO, the vegas track last season was one of the best and most exciting, if not the best street layouts Ive ever seen. Id certainly love to see that return to a schedule.

[pits4me]

Toronto was really never in doubt, it just depends who you are willing to listen to (and believe). Let's not forget TG wanted this event before Molson dropped it as part of their merger with Coors. Its legacy also explains why CC fans have been so vocal about its absence on the 2008 calendar. There are plenty of rinky dink oval races that could be replaced by Toronto and possibly MT.

AGR wouldn't be promoting St. Pete's if Honda hadn't stepped up to the plate to save it. The Florida market needed a street race. Pairing with the ALMS made perfect sense. This also opens the door to multi-event sponsorship and B2B hospitality. Hopefully, Acura's involvement with ALMS will attract more dual weekends.

[TU Homer]

There are plenty of rinky dink oval races that could be replaced by Toronto and possibly MT.

IRL apologists don't really understand what Toronto means.

BTW, MT would be a great add to the schedule. Very unlikely to happen, but it was a beautiful track, a great race, and is a driver's track.

Funny how IRL is becoming a haven for road racers with an emphasis on road/street courses. Makes a guy wonder what the last 13 years has been all about, cept the cars are uglier, slower, and sound bad.


-TU

[nigelred5]

Funny how IRL is becoming a haven for road racers with an emphasis on road/street courses. Makes a guy wonder what the last 13 years has been all about, cept the cars are uglier, slower, and sound bad.


-TU

I don't think any of us ever had any doubt what the last 13 years was all about. He won. Now we can go right back to what it was 13 years ago and get on with it.

[Mark in Oshawa]

IRL apologists don't really understand what Toronto means.

BTW, MT would be a great add to the schedule. Very unlikely to happen, but it was a beautiful track, a great race, and is a driver's track.

Funny how IRL is becoming a haven for road racers with an emphasis on road/street courses. Makes a guy wonder what the last 13 years has been all about, cept the cars are uglier, slower, and sound bad.


-TU

Let that be a lesson to ya. He who has the biggest bankroll eventually wins. To all of you Indy 500 haters out there, this is the proof that it still mattered since Tony won. One of the casualities was Toronto, but I know it wasn't because of any malicious anti-Canadian thing and more to do with the conflict with Watkins Glen not 5 hours away across Lake Ontario. You had the races on the same weekend and while that made sense when you were trying to kill the CCWS, it makes things tough to save both races on short notice.

Andretti buying the race up is great news, and I didn't like Mikey as a driver, but I do like him as a car owner and a promoter. He has grown up in a lot of ways, and he has proven to be able in the car owning business to say the least. I have no problem with him buying Toronto and if he can get a deal through the IDIOTS running the show in Toronto ( nothing that a few well placed shots to the head wouldn't cure ), this deal can happen. If it falls through, Namarow very much is right when he states how Mayor Miller could be the sand in the gearbox. This socialist thug would bend over backwards to toss every car out of the downtown core if he could, but I THINK he is smart enough to not just gum up the works to save the race for 2009. Too many people will notice the race NOT there financially this summer, and even Mayor Miller has to know when he is facing a battle he cannot win. Of course......I say that knowing he spent 100's of millions of dollars in cancelled contracts for the bridge to the Island Airport Downtown.....but alas, that is a topic for another forum.

Mikey, we might learn to love ya if you save our race........because I will miss it this summer for sure....

[TU Homer]

I liked mikey as a driver. He's turning out to apparently be a savy owner. He could make mucho kudos from the anti-TGers out there if he ran 2 cars in the Forumula Atlantics. He needs to keep Atlantics in toronto, IMO.


-TU

[BrentJackson]

Andretti buying the race up is great news, and I didn't like Mikey as a driver, but I do like him as a car owner and a promoter. He has grown up in a lot of ways, and he has proven to be able in the car owning business to say the least. I have no problem with him buying Toronto and if he can get a deal through the IDIOTS running the show in Toronto ( nothing that a few well placed shots to the head wouldn't cure ), this deal can happen. If it falls through, Namarow very much is right when he states how Mayor Miller could be the sand in the gearbox. This socialist thug would bend over backwards to toss every car out of the downtown core if he could, but I THINK he is smart enough to not just gum up the works to save the race for 2009. Too many people will notice the race NOT there financially this summer, and even Mayor Miller has to know when he is facing a battle he cannot win. Of course......I say that knowing he spent 100's of millions of dollars in cancelled contracts for the bridge to the Island Airport Downtown.....but alas, that is a topic for another forum.

I can't agree more. But if Michael wants this race to go down, he better get an iron-clad guarantee that it's gonna happen and a handful of MAJOR prospective sponsors. Because as others have pointed out, Miller and the local councillor for that area (Adam Vaughan) are both left-wing, car-hating morons who have big beefs with the entertainment industry. Vaughan proposed a tax on nightclubs for having nightclub patrons line up on sidewalks. (Not kidding.) These two, along with the condo whiners than support Vaughan religiously, will give him all sorts of stomach pains.

But what I might also try is the new MP for Toronto Centre - Bob Rae. This is a guy who has completely changed his view in the eyes of most, and he's become a big wheel in the Federal Liberals. If you can get him on board that might just shove Miller in the right direction. Try Premier McGuinty while you're at it, too.

[!!WALDO!!]

It appears there is some looking over of numbers before Mikey commits to anything. I guess the end of April.

Mikey be real careful.

[TU Homer]

It appears there is some looking over of numbers before Mikey commits to anything. I guess the end of April.

Mikey be real careful.


Careful of what? It's not like this race has any unknowns. It's been coveted by TG for the entire 3 year history that IRL has been running roads.

BTW, looks like at least half the races are going to roads/streets for next year. Wonder what the IRL apologists who said (pick one):

1. NO streets and roads, only ovals.
2. Only ovals and roads and no streets.
3. Only ovals plus 1 reallly good street and 2 really good roads.
4. Keep the ovals at a 2/3 majority.
5. At least half the races as ovals.

[!!WALDO!!]

Careful of what? It's not like this race has any unknowns. It's been coveted by TG for the entire 3 year history that IRL has been running roads.

It just came out that toronto is the most expensive race on the schedule in 2007. Edmonton costs around $13,000,000 and is finally break-even.


BTW, looks like at least half the races are going to roads/streets for next year. Wonder what the IRL apologists who said (pick one):

1. NO streets and roads, only ovals.
2. Only ovals and roads and no streets.
3. Only ovals plus 1 reallly good street and 2 really good roads.
4. Keep the ovals at a 2/3 majority.
5. At least half the races as ovals.

Really, who says? Link please to that. The IRL took those three races because they come close to making money, the rest do not. Sorry but reality is a bit different than fantasy and if Mikey moves the Toronto show to Mosport it will save him at least $13,000,000. I know, I know you want to see the Mikey lose $13,000,000 so you can be right. He isn't that stupid, I don't think.

[DavePI2]

this is great news. Although I am going to Kentucky this year that is a race that unless the fan hospitality has improved can definetley be replaced. Not that much further to Toronto then it is to Sparta and it would not be an oval.

David

[!!WALDO!!]

this is great news. Although I am going to Kentucky this year that is a race that unless the fan hospitality has improved can definetley be replaced. Not that much further to Toronto then it is to Sparta and it would not be an oval.

David


It is not going to happen in 2008. Why not go to Mid-Ohio?

[Mark in Oshawa]

It just came out that toronto is the most expensive race on the schedule in 2007. Edmonton costs around $13,000,000 and is finally break-even.



Really, who says? Link please to that. The IRL took those three races because they come close to making money, the rest do not. Sorry but reality is a bit different than fantasy and if Mikey moves the Toronto show to Mosport it will save him at least $13,000,000. I know, I know you want to see the Mikey lose $13,000,000 so you can be right. He isn't that stupid, I don't think.

As someone who lived not 20 mins from Mosport, I can tell you I would like to see the Indy Cars there, but I would like you to provide the proof that Toronto was the most expensive street race and it is a massive money loser. Toronto was on the sched for almost 20 years and it may not have been making Molson rich, but it was NOT the black hole of Calcutta finacially.

Toronto would have made the cut if there wasn't conflicts on the sched. People who are NOT from Toronto and environs shouldn't be casting aspersions on the viability of the race there. It is the same mentality of American Sports commentators that stated that the Raptors were losing money and leaving Toronto 5 years ago. Last time I looked, they were doing very well. It amazes me the way people will look at the Toronto Market from the outside and pretend how it works. Reality is Andretti will make his own mind up but you can bet it is more a money maker in potential running a race with 65000 fans in Toronto than with 35000 or so in St. Petes. Also, for the fantasy of going to Mosport, if the facilities were good enough for Indy Car, NASCAR would have been more serious about putting their Busch/Nationwide event THERE instead of Montreal.

Just a thought.....

[DavePI2]

I am sorry I didn't make myself clear Waldo, I am going to MidOhio also. Wouldn't miss it, it is my favorite track. I am going back to Kentucky this year only because Michiagan was dropped. If Toronto is added next year it will be Toronto instead of Kentucky. Hope to see you and everyone else here at MidOHio for all three days. 26 cars for IRL and probably 30 for alms. Will be a great weekend. Who knows I may go to Detroit also. I was planning on going to Michigan football game the day before that race, so I might just make it.

David

[the bro]

I can't see the race being moved to Mosport, cool as that would be. Consider the facilities at the Toronto site: easy access to downtown hotels,venues to hold off track street parties, the onsite trade centre, lots of proper washroom facilities (If you have been to Montreal, consider the port a potties on a warm June day), easy access to several types of transit etc.

Also would Panoz want to have a race at his track, that would outdraw his own series (ALMS). That would be like Tony George inviting NASCAR to race at the brickyard. Whoops!

I don't think Andretti would have put in the offer, if he didn't believe he could make it work.

Bring on 2009, I will be in Grandstand 31 for my 23rd race in Toronto. Hopefully they can bring back Molson. I seem to remember the Andretti's doing comercials for them in the 90's.

[!!WALDO!!]

As someone who lived not 20 mins from Mosport, I can tell you I would like to see the Indy Cars there, but I would like you to provide the proof that Toronto was the most expensive street race and it is a massive money loser. Toronto was on the sched for almost 20 years and it may not have been making Molson rich, but it was NOT the black hole of Calcutta finacially.

Not according to a Toronto Sports Writer with a link on this site to the story and his sources came from the city and the CCWS. Of course he was slammed because he covers other sports but it is here.

Ask yourself this.....If the show makes money then why aren't the promoters of this event, Kalkhoven and Forsythe demanding it be on the schedule or crying it isn't.
The IRL took the three shows that show a reasonably good chance of making money.

I laugh at these street courses as they cost bundles and bundles of money with Union Wages being paid out. There is no chance of most of these shows making money.

You honestly think Molson made money? If they did they wouldn't have dropped it. The $9,000,000 invested annually did not give them $63,000,000 in gross revenue.

Move it to Mosport and you cost goes to 7% of the streets. So which has a better chance of making money? Something costing you a $1.00 and you charging $0.60 or something costing you $0.07 and charging $0.30?

Tradition of red ink must be stopped.

Here: http://www.motorsportforums.com/forums/showpost.php?p=439653&postcount=1

[the bro]

I have no idea what the costs are compared to Mosport, but I don't see it being moved to Mosport. If Andretti wanted to host the race at Mosport, why would he buy the rights to the Toronto Race? He would just negotiate with Mosport, and save himself the money buying the rights to the Toronto race. In my opinion the promotional potential is much greater at Toronto, which makes up for the difference in how much it costs to put on the event.

Not to slag Mosport, which is a great facility, but if you were trying to entertain a big time sponsor where would you have your event? Mosport is a great track for hard core race fans, and the events staged at Mosport are events that appeal to hard core race fans. The Toronto Grand Prix event attracts the hard core race fans, as well as many fringe fans.

Much as I love Mosport, I don't see it happening.

[TU Homer]

It just came out that toronto is the most expensive race on the schedule in 2007. Edmonton costs around $13,000,000 and is finally break-even.



Really, who says? Link please to that. The IRL took those three races because they come close to making money, the rest do not. Sorry but reality is a bit different than fantasy and if Mikey moves the Toronto show to Mosport it will save him at least $13,000,000. I know, I know you want to see the Mikey lose $13,000,000 so you can be right. He isn't that stupid, I don't think.

Settle down, waldo. I said it looks like it. Curious, what is your "limit" on the number of roads/streets that is acceptable?

[!!WALDO!!]

Settle down, waldo. I said it looks like it. Curious, what is your "limit" on the number of roads/streets that is acceptable?

A higher number than you would have for ovals. This has nothing to do with wishes it has to do with making money. You want to know why the CCWS folded up? Subsidizing events, like Portland, $2,500,000, Cleveland, $4,000,000, Toronto, $6,000,000, St Jovite, $2,500,000, Houston, $4,000,000 and Road America, $2,500,000 plus Europe at $3,000,000 per deal.

Look, it cost track rent at Mosport. You do not have to build a race track and tear it down. There is the cost. If Edmonton on an airport reported in the first year a cost of $15,000,000 and this show is in the streets it must cost at least that much. Even with Honda dropping $4,000,000 and others dropping $2,000,000, there still could be at least $9,000,000 that needs to be covered.
If they go to Mosport the show will net $500,000 plus rent.

$9,000,000 compared to $750,000. Which has a better chance of making money in the long run?

[TU Homer]

A higher number than you would have for ovals. This has nothing to do with wishes it has to do with making money. You want to know why the CCWS folded up? Subsidizing events, like Portland, $2,500,000, Cleveland, $4,000,000, Toronto, $6,000,000, St Jovite, $2,500,000, Houston, $4,000,000 and Road America, $2,500,000 plus Europe at $3,000,000 per deal.

Look, it cost track rent at Mosport. You do not have to build a race track and tear it down. There is the cost. If Edmonton on an airport reported in the first year a cost of $15,000,000 and this show is in the streets it must cost at least that much. Even with Honda dropping $4,000,000 and others dropping $2,000,000, there still could be at least $9,000,000 that needs to be covered.
If they go to Mosport the show will net $500,000 plus rent.

$9,000,000 compared to $750,000. Which has a better chance of making money in the long run? you didn't answer my question.

[!!WALDO!!]

you didn't answer my question.


A higher number than you would have for ovals.

It isn't about the number it is about profitablity of the show. We could do Las Vegas and Phoenix again. That's right the hit was so big at Las Vegas the promoter pulled the plug on Phoenix.

If shows lose money then bye-bye. Like I said and told others, pick up the phone and scream at Kalkhoven and Forsythe for Toronto and until Mikey actually buys it, it still belongs to those two. Complain to Lannigan about losing Houston and Cleveland. Three people 3 races and only people with nothing invested crying. The other three are dancing a jig.

So Long Beach, Edmonton, St Petersburg are making money or have a chance to make money. The rest are buckets of red ink. Got an idea, you get the money and try to do one yourself. Just do a USAC Sprint show at the Fairgrounds. They did that not long ago and didn't go back. I heard the promoter took a $50,000 hit. He got smart but you want people to take a $5,000,000 hit for a race you won't even support.

Such is racing.

[weeflyonthewall]

A higher number than you would have for ovals. This has nothing to do with wishes it has to do with making money. You want to know why the CCWS folded up? Subsidizing events, like Portland, $2,500,000, Cleveland, $4,000,000, Toronto, $6,000,000, St Jovite, $2,500,000, Houston, $4,000,000 and Road America, $2,500,000 plus Europe at $3,000,000 per deal.

Look, it cost track rent at Mosport. You do not have to build a race track and tear it down. There is the cost. If Edmonton on an airport reported in the first year a cost of $15,000,000 and this show is in the streets it must cost at least that much. Even with Honda dropping $4,000,000 and others dropping $2,000,000, there still could be at least $9,000,000 that needs to be covered.
If they go to Mosport the show will net $500,000 plus rent.

$9,000,000 compared to $750,000. Which has a better chance of making money in the long run?

Is the King of speculative fact at it again? What is the Vancouver GP worth if it were resurrected after the Olympics? You would likely say $0. Same with Toronto? The bottom line here is Andretti, a past winner of this race fully understands its importance Toronto Indy brings to OWR in the US and Canada. TG has wanted this race for years. It belongs on the schedule and its a crying shame TG couldn't fine a way to include it this year.

[weeflyonthewall]

It isn't about the number it is about profitablity of the show. We could do Las Vegas and Phoenix again. That's right the hit was so big at Las Vegas the promoter pulled the plug on Phoenix.

If shows lose money then bye-bye. Like I said and told others, pick up the phone and scream at Kalkhoven and Forsythe for Toronto and until Mikey actually buys it, it still belongs to those two. Complain to Lannigan about losing Houston and Cleveland. Three people 3 races and only people with nothing invested crying. The other three are dancing a jig.

So Long Beach, Edmonton, St Petersburg are making money or have a chance to make money. The rest are buckets of red ink. Got an idea, you get the money and try to do one yourself. Just do a USAC Sprint show at the Fairgrounds. They did that not long ago and didn't go back. I heard the promoter took a $50,000 hit. He got smart but you want people to take a $5,000,000 hit for a race you won't even support.

Such is racing.

St. Pete's was no better until Honda stepped up to the plate. Without ALMS it would be history.

[JSH]

It isn't about the number it is about profitablity of the show.

Don't really post here cos it looks too much like a slanging match. Don't mind reading though...

But I have to say you really lost me with this one... :confused:

[!!WALDO!!]

Don't really post here cos it looks too much like a slanging match. Don't mind reading though...

But I have to say you really lost me with this one... :confused:

Where is the printing press for the money? These are private promoters where is there return?

[!!WALDO!!]

Is the King of speculative fact at it again?

Then prove me wrong.


What is the Vancouver GP worth if it were resurrected after the Olympics? You would likely say $0.

Well yes, did Vancouver make so much money that they could have moved it. They didn't so it ran its course. Again please, prove me wrong.



Same with Toronto? The bottom line here is Andretti, a past winner of this race fully understands its importance Toronto Indy brings to OWR in the US and Canada.

Yes, but if he has to pay off debts of the show, he will run from it. He is a businessman now thus he has to make decisions that are good for his business. Taking on $5,000,000 in debt to lose another $5,000,000 is not smart. Again please, prove me wrong.



TG has wanted this race for years. It belongs on the schedule and its a crying shame TG couldn't fine a way to include it this year.

Really, I know Tony George and never heard it discussed. Once he thought of it once Molson bailed until he saw the books then he ran too. Remember it is still Kalkhoven and Forysthe right now, so blame them for it not being on the schedule or because they ran the CCWS they are not guilty of killing this show. Again please, prove me wrong.

If I was Mikey I would stay as far away from this deal as possible. :mad:

[TU Homer]

Why don't you prove anything you say? You're the one throwing numbers around like they mean something. "....yadda yadda 47 years I know all about everything and you don't so prove me wrong yadda yadda..." Now you "know" TG, huh?

[!!WALDO!!]

Why don't you prove anything you say? You're the one throwing numbers around like they mean something. "....yadda yadda 47 years I know all about everything and you don't so prove me wrong yadda yadda..."

What numbers. How much to build a track and tear it down. In 1996 I bought seats for a race that cost me then $11.00 per seat and I bought 2000. I got some info last fall, still on a mailing list and the seats are upwards of $33.00. So if you but 100,000 seats what are you looking at, just for that one line item. Why do you think St. Petersburg lost seating? 20,000 is $660,000 to the bottom line.
2 plus miles of fencing on two sides, IDOTs, labor of thousands of man hours, to build and tear down.
I just know what the the Edmonton promoter said. It was published and chewed upon. Now a Toronto Sports Reporter states some of the facts and it is my fault you do not believe the truth.

CALL KALKHOVEN and FORSYTHE, THEY ARE THE PROMOTERS OF RECORD!

More you post the more I want to send Mikey emails of this telling to save his money.

Don't like my numbers or the reporters then make up your own. Then divide that number by $65.00 and see how many you need to break even.

[the bro]

Ok lets play devil's avocate. Say you hold the race at Mosport instead of Toronto. You want to entertain your teams sponsor, where are you going to put them up. How about the 5th wheel in Bowmanville. (Nothing personal against the 5th, which is a fine establishment.)

http://www.5thwheel.com/Bowmanville.html

I think part of the appeal of the street courses for the teams, is the ability to entertain their sponsors. Having the race in a major city fits the bill.


You could always hold a race race at the Anchorage Airport, you could probably get the facility cheap. (Nothing personal against the Anchorage airport, which I am sure is a fine establishment.)

http://www.dot.state.ak.us/anc/index.shtml

[!!WALDO!!]

Ok lets play devil's avocate. Say you hold the race at Mosport instead of Toronto. You want to entertain your teams sponsor, where are you going to put them up. How about the 5th wheel in Bowmanville. (Nothing personal against the 5th, which is a fine establishment.)

They are called hospitality tents. Do to race and you will see hundreds of them.



I think part of the appeal of the street courses for the teams, is the ability to entertain their sponsors. Having the race in a major city fits the bill.

Ok lets play devil's avocate, who pays the $5,000,000 in losses.


You could always hold a race race at the Anchorage Airport, you could probably get the facility cheap. (Nothing personal against the Anchorage airport, which I am sure is a fine establishment.)

Personally a country with 10% pf the U.S. population deserves only 2 races and one at around $12,000,000 and the other around $750,000 would be more than I would spend.

My suggestion, get all the Canadian Sponsors together and buy the 25 DP01's and set up their own series. Put in all those Canadian Superstar drivers and run Vancouver, Edmonton, Toronto, Mosport, Montreal and St Jovite. Pay out the $425,000 in purses that the CCWS didn't pay out in 2007. Add Portland and Cleveland to the mix. $3,400,000 in Purses, $7,600,000 in Sanction Fees and Points, 4 races with Track Rent of $250,000 each and $40,000,000 for the other 4, so $48,000,000/8/$60 means 100,000 must show up every race day to break the series even.

Good luck.

[TU Homer]

Amazing... why would Canada not "deserve" a race if it sells tickets and sponsors? Waldo logic once again.

[TU Homer]

What numbers. How much to build a track and tear it down. In 1996 I bought seats for a race that cost me then $11.00 per seat and I bought 2000. I got some info last fall, still on a mailing list and the seats are upwards of $33.00. So if you but 100,000 seats what are you looking at, just for that one line item. Why do you think St. Petersburg lost seating? 20,000 is $660,000 to the bottom line.
2 plus miles of fencing on two sides, IDOTs, labor of thousands of man hours, to build and tear down.
I just know what the the Edmonton promoter said. It was published and chewed upon. Now a Toronto Sports Reporter states some of the facts and it is my fault you do not believe the truth.

CALL KALKHOVEN and FORSYTHE, THEY ARE THE PROMOTERS OF RECORD!

More you post the more I want to send Mikey emails of this telling to save his money.

Don't like my numbers or the reporters then make up your own. Then divide that number by $65.00 and see how many you need to break even.

every number you cite is highly suspect.

[!!WALDO!!]

every number you cite is highly suspect.

Make some up then. Feel better then?

http://www.thestar.com/Sports/article/309875

His numbers too?

[!!WALDO!!]

Amazing... why would Canada not "deserve" a race if it sells tickets and sponsors? Waldo logic once again.

Where did I say that? Ever make the trip to any of these deals? I did 9 times.

[the bro]

"They are called hospitality tents. Do to race and you will see hundreds of them."


I was refering more to the off track amenities and things to do when not at the track. The Toronto track is a 5min cab ride from: 5 star hotels, 5 star restaurants, nightlife etc.

Having a race in the middle of nowhere has its own type of off track entertainment consisting of: star gazing, cow tipping and weiner roasting. All good things, but no so great if you are trying to attract big league sponsors.


I don't pretend to know anything about the numbers, but in my opinion I don't think Andretti would buy it if he didn't think it was a viable enterprise. As for the losses why should I care who pays it, I just want to see the race. I don't get my nose out of joint when my favorite team pays a player a huge sum of money and they don't perform. It's not my money! If they want to pay it go ahead.

Canada has been a major supporter of Auto racing in general over the years, and has produced many good drivers. If you would compare the per capita dirvers per country over the last 15 years in Indy racing, Canada would rate quite high.

[!!WALDO!!]

I was refering more to the off track amenities and things to do when not at the track. The Toronto track is a 5min cab ride from: 5 star hotels, 5 star restaurants, nightlife etc.

Having a race in the middle of nowhere has its own type of off track entertainment consisting of: star gazing, cow tipping and weiner roasting. All good things, but no so great if you are trying to attract big league sponsors.

You're right, that is why NASCAR is going broke. Most of their tracks do not meet your criteria to attract big league sponsors.

[the bro]

I think having some races in the middle of nowhere is OK, but not all of them. I think having a mix of street courses, road courses and ovals is the way to go. Ovals, with few exceptions, are usually in the middle of nowhere.

Street races have a number of amenities that you can't beat at other tracks. Montreal (not technically a street race) is one of the most popular stops on the F1 circuit, due to the proximity of a major city. Although some of the local entertainment options available helps the cause.

[!!WALDO!!]

I think having some races in the middle of nowhere is OK, but not all of them. I think having a mix of street courses, road courses and ovals is the way to go. Ovals, with few exceptions, are usually in the middle of nowhere.

Street races have a number of amenities that you can't beat at other tracks. Montreal (not technically a street race) is one of the most popular stops on the F1 circuit, due to the proximity of a major city. Although some of the local entertainment options available helps the cause.


Mosport is closer than Chicagoland is to Chicago. AGAIN: You're right, that is why NASCAR is going broke. Most of their tracks do not meet your criteria to attract big league sponsors.

You are wrong about this. NOBODY has more sponsorship than NASCAR, yet based on your formula, the CCWS should have.

[the bro]

Sorry I didn't get the sarcasm.

NASCAR is on another planet as far as racing goes in North America. They make their own sucess formulas.

Lets consider having the race at Mosport, it may not be as viable as you think. Correct me if I am wrong, the gist of your arguement is that Mosport would be more economically viable, as it is an existing facility which doesn't have to be set up or torn down.

Track rental

The city of Toronto rents the facility to the Grand Prix. The City of Toronto derives more benifit from the event than just the rental fee. The race brings in Tourists to the city which benifits the city overall. Most cities spend money to attract tourists to their city. For this reason I feel that the track rental of the Toronto course would be a lot less than at Mosport. Especially given how much they have cut the rental fee over the last several years. Mosport would want a bigger slice of the pie.

Grandstands

Mosport has no grandstands, the spectator viewing areas are pretty basic. There are no viewing mounds like at Mid Ohio. There would have to be a couple of grandstands either rented or constructed permenantly. This would cost cash. Not as much set up as the Toronto site, but probably one thirds to half of the cost of Toronto.

Facilities

Mosport I beleive has only 6 bathrooms or so. This would not be enough, you would have to build more or rent some portapotties. The Toronto site has more than ample facilities already on site.

Safety facilities

At the moment I would estimate only 10% of the facility has any type of catch fencing. ALMS cars averaged 134.476 mph for the pole last year. At Mid Ohio last year the IRL cars were 4.5mph faster. That would put the IRL cars at about 140mph for a lap. Given that open wheel cars have more of a potential to fly, more catch fencing would probably be required. This would cost cash.

Turn 2 in particular may be too unsafe for IRL cars, which may nessessitate circuit changes. This would cost cash.

I wouldn't call Mosport a turn key site for IRL cars. I think when you add all this up, it wouldn't be that much cheaper than the Toronto site.

I don't have any hard numbers to back any of this up, just my thoughts. But I am fairly confident of one thing, the roar by the shore will return in 2009.

[!!WALDO!!]

Sorry I didn't get the sarcasm.

NASCAR is on another planet as far as racing goes in North America. They make their own sucess formulas.

Lets consider having the race at Mosport, it may not be as viable as you think. Correct me if I am wrong, the gist of your arguement is that Mosport would be more economically viable, as it is an existing facility which doesn't have to be set up or torn down.

Track rental

The city of Toronto rents the facility to the Grand Prix. The City of Toronto derives more benifit from the event than just the rental fee. The race brings in Tourists to the city which benifits the city overall. Most cities spend money to attract tourists to their city. For this reason I feel that the track rental of the Toronto course would be a lot less than at Mosport. Especially given how much they have cut the rental fee over the last several years. Mosport would want a bigger slice of the pie.

Grandstands

Mosport has no grandstands, the spectator viewing areas are pretty basic. There are no viewing mounds like at Mid Ohio. There would have to be a couple of grandstands either rented or constructed permenantly. This would cost cash. Not as much set up as the Toronto site, but probably one thirds to half of the cost of Toronto.

Facilities

Mosport I beleive has only 6 bathrooms or so. This would not be enough, you would have to build more or rent some portapotties. The Toronto site has more than ample facilities already on site.

Safety facilities

At the moment I would estimate only 10% of the facility has any type of catch fencing. ALMS cars averaged 134.476 mph for the pole last year. At Mid Ohio last year the IRL cars were 4.5mph faster. That would put the IRL cars at about 140mph for a lap. Given that open wheel cars have more of a potential to fly, more catch fencing would probably be required. This would cost cash.

Turn 2 in particular may be too unsafe for IRL cars, which may nessessitate circuit changes. This would cost cash.

I wouldn't call Mosport a turn key site for IRL cars. I think when you add all this up, it wouldn't be that much cheaper than the Toronto site.

I don't have any hard numbers to back any of this up, just my thoughts. But I am fairly confident of one thing, the roar by the shore will return in 2009.

Very good but will anything cost at Mosport anything over $1,000,000?
There still must be track built with fencing and walls, grandstands at least a cost of $33.00 per seat US plus City and other government requirements.

So if Edmonton is $15,000,000 and Toronto according to a Toronto sportwriter who got this info from the CCWS is the "most expensive" race on the series, then how can an existing race track with some quirks that ran Indy Cars in 1967-1968 and 1977-1978 cost more than $15,000,000?

I think when you add all this up, it wouldn't be that much cheaper than the Toronto site.

See the Edmonton numbers were put out by the promotional team before the first race and that race required less fencing and walls because it is on an airport.

You may wish for something but what about the red ink incurred last year? Mikey has to cover that and cover the 2009 red ink.

Nope, if he was smart be would drop the whole idea, but an Andretti being smart is a oxymoron. So based on what I read, even though Toronto would be a big money loser based on past performance, you want it to continue. Mosport would cost less than 7% of the Toronto show but has no chance of making money.

Mikey, got an idea? Look south to Brazil!

[Lousada]

Grandstands

Mosport has no grandstands, the spectator viewing areas are pretty basic. There are no viewing mounds like at Mid Ohio. There would have to be a couple of grandstands either rented or constructed permenantly. This would cost cash. Not as much set up as the Toronto site, but probably one thirds to half of the cost of Toronto.

Facilities

Mosport I beleive has only 6 bathrooms or so. This would not be enough, you would have to build more or rent some portapotties. The Toronto site has more than ample facilities already on site.

These things can be build permanently at Mosport. Therefore it can be written off in a number of years. Plus it can't be used all year round, as opposed to the street circuit.


Safety facilities

At the moment I would estimate only 10% of the facility has any type of catch fencing. ALMS cars averaged 134.476 mph for the pole last year. At Mid Ohio last year the IRL cars were 4.5mph faster. That would put the IRL cars at about 140mph for a lap. Given that open wheel cars have more of a potential to fly, more catch fencing would probably be required. This would cost cash.

Turn 2 in particular may be too unsafe for IRL cars, which may nessessitate circuit changes. This would cost cash.


I believe Mosport has a Grade 2 license from the FIA. This makes it officialy safe for Indycars. Perhaps they would still want to improve some areas, but that won't cost 15 million a year.

[!!WALDO!!]

These things can be build permanently at Mosport. Therefore it can be written off in a number of years. Plus it can't be used all year round, as opposed to the street circuit.



I believe Mosport has a Grade 2 license from the FIA. This makes it officialy safe for Indycars. Perhaps they would still want to improve some areas, but that won't cost 15 million a year.

ALMS races there right? Any other Formula events?

[the bro]

In the last several years they have had open wheel support races, Formula Mazda, Formula BMW. Probably the last really fast open wheel cars were Formula Atlantic which was probably early to mid 90's.

I must have missed where the 15 million for edmonton came from, was that the first year or every year? Does that include the initial cost to buy the equipment?

If it costs more than 15 million just to put on the Toronto event that seems like a hell of a lot of money. Especially given that the title sponsor was paying only 500,000. The province kicked in another 300,000. If say attendace was around 40,000 at an average of say $50.00, that's only 2 million. That would be more than a "substantial loss" as stated in the article below.

If you had the link to the article that states Edmonton costs 15 mil. I would appreciate it, I don't think I saw it. I did see the article from the journalist that states the Toronto race was "one of the most expensive venues". Expensive venues in terms of what? Track rental, set up, ticket prices? It really doesn't elaborate.

I also think most races in the Open Wheel world have had diminished returns over the last several years. I put this down to the state of open wheel racing in general since the split. I think you would be hard pressed to name a lot of races that haven't seen their revenue go down since the split.

The Indy race has been in the streets of Toronto since 1986, you can't tell me it has been losing money all of those years.

http://www.thestar.com/printArticle/309875

[the bro]

These things can be build permanently at Mosport. Therefore it can be written off in a number of years. Plus it can't be used all year round, as opposed to the street circuit.

But if it costing 15 million to put up some cement walls and set up about 9 or 10 grandstands (some of which are quite small) how much would it cost to build permanant stands?

I believe Mosport has a Grade 2 license from the FIA. This makes it officialy safe for Indycars. Perhaps they would still want to improve some areas, but that won't cost 15 million a year.

Mosport is a fairly safe track and does meets safety standards, however open wheel cars are quite different than sportscars. Look at Katherine Legge's accident at Road America, Dario Franchitti last year twice, Mario Andretti testing at Indy a few years ago. Could you imagine if any of these incidents happened in an area with no catch fencing. As I said I beleive only about 10% of the track is covered by catch fencing at the moment.

[!!WALDO!!]

In the last several years they have had open wheel support races, Formula Mazda, Formula BMW. Probably the last really fast open wheel cars were Formula Atlantic which was probably early to mid 90's.

I must have missed where the 15 million for edmonton came from, was that the first year or every year? Does that include the initial cost to buy the equipment?

If it costs more than 15 million just to put on the Toronto event that seems like a hell of a lot of money. Especially given that the title sponsor was paying only 500,000. The province kicked in another 300,000. If say attendace was around 40,000 at an average of say $50.00, that's only 2 million. That would be more than a "substantial loss" as stated in the article below.

If you had the link to the article that states Edmonton costs 15 mil. I would appreciate it, I don't think I saw it. I did see the article from the journalist that states the Toronto race was "one of the most expensive venues". Expensive venues in terms of what? Track rental, set up, ticket prices? It really doesn't elaborate.

I also think most races in the Open Wheel world have had diminished returns over the last several years. I put this down to the state of open wheel racing in general since the split. I think you would be hard pressed to name a lot of races that haven't seen their revenue go down since the split.

The Indy race has been in the streets of Toronto since 1986, you can't tell me it has been losing money all of those years.

http://www.thestar.com/printArticle/309875

Nope but it has since Molson pulled out. Edmonton is back to around $13,000,000. It lost $5,000,000 the first year and $2,500,000 the second year and made a little, $500,000 in 2007. With the show support the cost will be aound $10,000,000 in 2008 so the show should be profitable.

Past performance means nothing today. If it had been highly profitable then Peter Coors would have said "lets do it." But no, no one locally seems willing to do it so unless Mikey does it it is dead.

I think Mosport would solve the need and out draw St Jovite by a ton. When I was involved in that Chicago deal, the powers too be were looking at $6,500,000 per year in losses, with the same crowd Toronto gets. Which is larger Chicago or Toronto? Heck a 500 mile radius in the U.S. for Chicago can give you more people than are in Canada and have the home of Indy car in it.
Yet the show was going to lose buckets and buckets of money.

Just the new life on the Streets and get used to it. Once people see money, they stick out their hands for a taste. What should cost you $15,000,000 now cost you $17,500,000 because of too much eating.

At your own track or leased track it is private property thus you can have those removed. :D

[Marbles]

When I was involved in that Chicago deal

You work for Purolator too?

[the bro]

Well at this point we will have to wait and see, we should know in a month or so.

How about the Green angle.

Mosport has a lot of hills, going up and down all those hills wastes fuel, the Toronto track is flat. So you could say that the Toronto track is more "carbon friendly". Everything has to have a green anlge these days.

[!!WALDO!!]

Well at this point we will have to wait and see, we should know in a month or so.

How about the Green angle.

Mosport has a lot of hills, going up and down all those hills wastes fuel, the Toronto track is flat. So you could say that the Toronto track is more "carbon friendly". Everything has to have a green anlge these days.

Best way to the Green angle is not racing at all.

[the bro]

Sorry that green part was supposed to be a bit of joke. You are right even though some forms of racing are trying to go green, not racing would solve the problem. It's is more of a promotional thing probably, and also an pre-emptive attempt to deflect any criticism that might come their way.

[nanders]

Why don't you prove anything you say? You're the one throwing numbers around like they mean something. "....yadda yadda 47 years I know all about everything and you don't so prove me wrong yadda yadda..." Now you "know" TG, huh?

I wonder if Waldo is in control of the Hulman family trust.

[!!WALDO!!]

Sorry that green part was supposed to be a bit of joke. You are right even though some forms of racing are trying to go green, not racing would solve the problem. It's is more of a promotional thing probably, and also an pre-emptive attempt to deflect any criticism that might come their way.


Actually Cities watch polution closer than the out lying areas. Here in my state only the NE part of the State required emmission tests, the rest except a couple down state counties were exempt.

[Mark in Oshawa]

Where is the printing press for the money? These are private promoters where is there return?

Waldo, let me give you a news flash. Racing loses money. Hello.....there I said it. You think Ferrari recoups their half a billion dollars a YEAR spent on the F1 team? You have any clue how long you have to amortize the costs of building an oval with 60000 seats? How about the fiction that every event that is currently on the IRL sched makes money? You keep telling me how Toronto is a money loser. First off, I never said it was keeping Molson's in the black. Adverstising your product is the first way of keeping racing on track. Whether it is race car adverstising or event promotion, no large company who gets involved in racing expects to make a profit unless they own a track and put NASCAR in. That said, it is a real financial nutcracker and government help is often required. Your article you quote from the Toronto Star (Dave Perkins on March 6 of this year) is interesting. This coming from a paper that supports the same left of center cabal that is anti car and anti anything that doesn't cater to the downtown lefties. Dave is right that the City has reduced the rent for the track but lets break a lot of this down.

First off, the rent was dropped to 200000. Fine....lets also remember that the race uses the SAME walls, Grandstands and much of the same fencing. It is all stored not far away or under the Gardner Expy to the north of the EX grounds where the race is held. How much do you think it costs to set this sucker up? I would wager about the same or a bit more than in St. Petes. Toronto draws approximately twice as many as St. Petes. Bet us Canadians are paying WAY more per ticket also. Also factor in national adverstising and TV contracts for Canadian dates with Canadian advertisers on top of the US advertisers that are there through the series. Does the race make money? Hell I wouldn't know for sure, but an educated guess says it broke even during the glory years and it is with only the decline of Champ Car and CART that started to cause attendance to tail off and the lack of a major sponsor.

Lets face the reality, street racing is not economical but if you want to reach markets you wont get in otherwise, than you do it. You will NEVER convince me the race stayed on the sched for 30 years if it was a black hole financially. Also note, Kalkoven and the boys want to sell the race because they are pretty much getting out of the race promotion business. If Toronto had stayed on the sched, they would have maybe made a go of it, but considering the way the whole thing was in the air, it is easier to sell.

Now if Mikey doesn't buy, maybe your points have merit, but you will never convince me that the second Honda bails on St. Pete's that race will survive. Toronto has hung on with Molson's gone for a few years now. It is the biggest media market in Canada and the home to most of the Canadian financial elite. If Canada as a market means anything to the IRL, they will find away to get this race back as part of the series.

OH one more thing WALDO. I think Mosport will see the IRL in your fantasy only. Anyone who knows the history of this race, and the Panoz owned Mosport will know that they are almost two different complete fan bases, and the Toronto race fans quit going to Mosport 20 years ago......and despite some wonderful work by Panoz and Co, most of the fans you see for the GP downtown you DON'T see at the ALMS. That is fine....I like it that way....the ALMS crowd is a lot less trendy and a lot more hardcore...like me.

[!!WALDO!!]

Waldo, let me give you a news flash. Racing loses money. Hello.....there I said it. You think Ferrari recoups their half a billion dollars a YEAR spent on the F1 team? You have any clue how long you have to amortize the costs of building an oval with 60000 seats? How about the fiction that every event that is currently on the IRL sched makes money? You keep telling me how Toronto is a money loser. First off, I never said it was keeping Molson's in the black. Adverstising your product is the first way of keeping racing on track. Whether it is race car adverstising or event promotion, no large company who gets involved in racing expects to make a profit unless they own a track and put NASCAR in. That said, it is a real financial nutcracker and government help is often required. Your article you quote from the Toronto Star (Dave Perkins on March 6 of this year) is interesting. This coming from a paper that supports the same left of center cabal that is anti car and anti anything that doesn't cater to the downtown lefties. Dave is right that the City has reduced the rent for the track but lets break a lot of this down.

First off, the rent was dropped to 200000. Fine....lets also remember that the race uses the SAME walls, Grandstands and much of the same fencing. It is all stored not far away or under the Gardner Expy to the north of the EX grounds where the race is held. How much do you think it costs to set this sucker up? I would wager about the same or a bit more than in St. Petes. Toronto draws approximately twice as many as St. Petes. Bet us Canadians are paying WAY more per ticket also. Also factor in national adverstising and TV contracts for Canadian dates with Canadian advertisers on top of the US advertisers that are there through the series. Does the race make money? Hell I wouldn't know for sure, but an educated guess says it broke even during the glory years and it is with only the decline of Champ Car and CART that started to cause attendance to tail off and the lack of a major sponsor.

Lets face the reality, street racing is not economical but if you want to reach markets you wont get in otherwise, than you do it. You will NEVER convince me the race stayed on the sched for 30 years if it was a black hole financially. Also note, Kalkoven and the boys want to sell the race because they are pretty much getting out of the race promotion business. If Toronto had stayed on the sched, they would have maybe made a go of it, but considering the way the whole thing was in the air, it is easier to sell.

Now if Mikey doesn't buy, maybe your points have merit, but you will never convince me that the second Honda bails on St. Pete's that race will survive. Toronto has hung on with Molson's gone for a few years now. It is the biggest media market in Canada and the home to most of the Canadian financial elite. If Canada as a market means anything to the IRL, they will find away to get this race back as part of the series.

OH one more thing WALDO. I think Mosport will see the IRL in your fantasy only. Anyone who knows the history of this race, and the Panoz owned Mosport will know that they are almost two different complete fan bases, and the Toronto race fans quit going to Mosport 20 years ago......and despite some wonderful work by Panoz and Co, most of the fans you see for the GP downtown you DON'T see at the ALMS. That is fine....I like it that way....the ALMS crowd is a lot less trendy and a lot more hardcore...like me.

Racing loses money all the time. You see why I ask where the printing press is, Ferrari sells specialized cars, thus they have a printing press. St Pete is not that expensive to do. It was a Toronto reporter using CCWS info that stated it was the most expensive race on the CCWS circuit.

Face it, the show loses money, I didn't say it, Molson, Kalkhoven, Forsythe and the reporter did. So my suggestion, a suggestion I gave to a poster who was crying about the loss of St Peterburg. Go get the sponsors and do it yourself. I was told that isn't practical. So it isn't practical for you to lose money in the millions and ok for someone else.

That is why I suggest Mikey to look at Brazil and forget this.

[weeflyonthewall]

A Toronto reporter with an ulterior motive no less. Waldo why didn't you pick up on that? Because you have your own ulterior motives maybe?

[!!WALDO!!]

A Toronto reporter with an ulterior motive no less. Waldo why didn't you pick up on that? Because you have your own ulterior motives maybe?

What motives does a reporter have? Where in the article does he bring up his motives? Please post it for me.
While you are at it, where are mine? So link me to where I hate and want Toronto to go away? Frankly I could care less about a show that now has a history of losing money. That is my only motive.

That is why Mikey should keep his money in his wallet and go to Brazil.

[TU Homer]

Waldo, when you email Mikey, why don't you let us all know. Let us know what "he" says. Tell him about that time I saw his racer, Mutah, at the Chili Bowl (incredible how IRL is still in it for the local dirt tracker). Say hello to Tony for me as well. And wish his lovely wife a happy birthday from me. Next time you run across Roger, let him know his Detroit GP isn't viable, but I personally appreciate his support of true prototype racing. And give a big hug to Chip, man he's got a big hug! And buy AJ a tenderloin, and I'll pay you back.

Man, you are connected and have it all figured out.

[!!WALDO!!]

Waldo, when you email Mikey, why don't you let us all know. Let us know what "he" says.

Already did when he made his announcement. DON'T DO IT!.


Tell him about that time I saw his racer, Mutah, at the Chili Bowl (incredible how IRL is still in it for the local dirt tracker).

Well Sarah Fisher won my race in Kalamazoo in 1999. How many midget drivers got rides in CART or the CCWS in the last 20 years?


Say hello to Tony for me as well. And wish his lovely wife a happy birthday from me.

Oh I will, you should send him a thank you card, if it was me I would let everyone in the CCWS just hang. So he deserves kudos from you rather than rudeness. I deserve rudeness from you as we have been hammer on each other right up to Tony Renna ending up in the stands. It was me that broke the news to you.


Next time you run across Roger, let him know his Detroit GP isn't viable, but I personally appreciate his support of true prototype racing.

Yes, I would drop the ALMS from Detroit but that is just me. I would replace it with a Goat Roping Contest or the Grand-Am.

And give a big hug to Chip, man he's got a big hug!

Good weekend the Homestead sweep. I bet he got more than a hug last night traveling to Martinsville.


And buy AJ a tenderloin, and I'll pay you back.
No, he is too fat. I lost 150 by staying away from track dogs and the Indy Star. Of course my heart trying to stop itself was an incentive.


Man, you are connected and have it all figured out.

No, somethings require the use of math, use of the words of the person laying out the dough and then putting the two together based on stuff we both know. So if a show cost $15,000,000 and you have $3,000,000 in Sponsors (Twice as much as NASCAR gets for a Double Header) and you give away Friday (based on Sponsorship) and get 55,000. On Saturday you sell 60,000 at $40.00. So how many at $100.00 do you need to break even?
Of course these are not my numbers but Edmonton's numbers and that is the second most expensive race in the CCWS.
When you get an answer then you have it all figured out also.

Congrats.

[BrentJackson]

Waldo, you hate the Toronto GP. We get it. But if you think that Toronto is a loser and St. Petersburg and Detroit aren't, you're nuts.

[!!WALDO!!]

Waldo, you hate the Toronto GP. We get it. But if you think that Toronto is a loser and St. Petersburg and Detroit aren't, you're nuts.

I hate the Toronto GP? Link please to me saying that?

Why is St Peterburg a loser? Why is Detroit a loser? Explain...

I know you logic is that these are IRL races thus they have to be. Just like every oval race.

If you think this then put up something that we can discuss.

As I suggested to others, do the show yourself. I would support that.

[pits4me]

Well Sarah Fisher won my race in Kalamazoo in 1999. How many midget drivers got rides in CART or the CCWS in the last 20 years?

Wrong series WALDO. It was TG that promised the IRL would go back to its roots for drivers. Go figure..



Yes, I would drop the ALMS from Detroit but that is just me. I would replace it with a Goat Roping Contest or the Grand-Am.

Goat Roping and Grand Sham in the same context, agree.

But why drop the ALMS? You don't appreciate that form of racing? Maybe you should call Mikey back and tell him to drop the Acura program. Or Rahal drop the BMW? Or Penske drop the Porcshe? You're way off base here. Or do you plan on buying them goats courtesy of Chip?

[weeflyonthewall]

What motives does a reporter have? Where in the article does he bring up his motives? Please post it for me.
While you are at it, where are mine? So link me to where I hate and want Toronto to go away? Frankly I could care less about a show that now has a history of losing money. That is my only motive.

That is why Mikey should keep his money in his wallet and go to Brazil.

Why should I post his motives. If you knew anyone in the Toronto area you might get it. You just don't like anything CART or CCWS did and will always focus on the negative. It must be a style thing. What's with this Brazil thing? You must be joking! I agree there should be a race in South America but Brazil wouldn't be high on my list. Emo ran out of rabbits.