Hamilton: No time for safety?

[bontebempo]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/motorsport/7302167.stm

No surprise. He thinks he's invincible foolish boy. Another arrogant notch for LH.

[ioan]

What were you expecting from him?
He obviously doesn't care to much about anything but himself. And some people were calling MS arrogant, the same people who are now strongly attached to Lewy's backside!

[I am evil Homer]

Yeah, yeah bash away....shame you fail to mention that Kimi isn't interested in it either. Too busy getting tats and being drunk?

[janneppi]

I know Räikkönen isn't a member, but how many others are missing?

[wedge]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/motorsport/7302167.stm

No surprise. He thinks he's invincible foolish boy. Another arrogant notch for LH.

Good for Lewis. The GPDA has too much influence already, IMHO. Always complaining about bumps and high kerbs.

[SGWilko]

Good for Lewis. The GPDA has too much influence already, IMHO. Always complaining about bumps and high kerbs.

The way I see Hamiltons reluctance to participate, and this is JMHO, is that he realises to be able make a meaningful contribution he would need to put a lot of time and effort into it. If he does not have the spare time due to existing commitments, there is little point in doing what will end up being a half hearted effort.

If a jobs worth doing and all that.

It was interesting reading that Kimi is in the same position....

[93VTEC]

LH could have come up with a better excuse. One that wouldn't show him up as an arrogant *******. But since he is one, and knows no better, there it is.

[airshifter]

Yes, we're all aware of just how much influence the GPDA has. The problems at Indy had the GPDA pushing for a chicane to limit speeds, yet Mosely decided to set a speed limit instead. Of course having tires blow out at 180 mph was not a saftey issue, but rather a "technical" issue!

Then DC took heat over the matter for making it public, and stating that the drivers in the association acted in the best interest of safety and the spectacle of motorsport. Those that raced didn't sign the statement. I guess they thought elimination of the competition by having tires fail at high speeds was an acceptable safety factor.


Without the proper influence, something like the GPDA does little to affect safety.

[ArrowsFA1]

Jackie Stewart is right - "It is completely wrong not to be involved." I think all the drivers should be members of the GPDA. The organisation is recognised by the FIA and as such has an input into F1 issues, and if the drivers want an effective voice in their sport then the GPDA is the way to have that voice.

It's disappointing that Hamilton has not joined the GPDA, and even more disappointing that the current WDC is not a member :dozey:

[Knock-on]

Jackie Stewart is right - "It is completely wrong not to be involved." I think all the drivers should be members of the GPDA. The organisation is recognised by the FIA and as such has an input into F1 issues, and if the drivers want an effective voice in their sport then the GPDA is the way to have that voice.

It's disappointing that Hamilton has not joined the GPDA, and even more disappointing that the current WDC is not a member :dozey:

I would agree with this statement but must point out that it is a voluntary membership and would detract from preperations for the GP.

Lewis is a very new driver in F1 and had a phernominal year last year. In fact, the most intense debut of any driver in my opinion and it is not surprising that he had more than enough going on around him without further distractions.

However, this is his second year and I would like to see him join the association either during this season or after it. He will have enough experience to be able to make a reasoned and rational input without it being unqualified.

I am very surprised that someone with Kimi's experience hasn't signed up. I can see no excuse whatsoever for the reigning WDC not to be a member. Perhaps if the Champion with the experience he commands places his commitment to the WDC, the younger drivers like Lewis would take it more seriously.

I think that anyone that has levelled any criticism at Lewis over this matter should be doubly vocal in their condemnation of Kimi unless it's just for a bit of driver bashing and being a hypocrite rests easily on your shoulders ;)

[wedge]

Jackie Stewart is right - "It is completely wrong not to be involved." I think all the drivers should be members of the GPDA. The organisation is recognised by the FIA and as such has an input into F1 issues, and if the drivers want an effective voice in their sport then the GPDA is the way to have that voice.

It's disappointing that Hamilton has not joined the GPDA, and even more disappointing that the current WDC is not a member :dozey:

As much as I respect your opinion its like saying everyone should join a union or vote in a general election.

IMHO F1 is very safe, perhaps too safe, though nothing in motorsport is ever 100% safe.

Stirling Moss and Jackie Stewart have opposing views and personally I would err with Moss - racing should have an element of risk. That's why the likes of Schumi, Senna, Gilles, Colin McCrae, Dale Earnhardt Sr are worshipped because they were fearless and took risks. Without these characers in motorsport, racing would be nothing.

[Roamy]

two side of the story Where was coultard letting a goddamn mound exist on the exit of a corner. Glock recd a big benefit for being a member. The union is a good idea if they do something. Yes high curbs are bad because they launch cars. Jackie want to lower the speeds down to formula ford speeds. I agree you have to watch the top end but they are in the ballpark. Yes someone will hit at the wrong angle one of these days but that is the risk. The union should be elective and the union should be concerned about what will launch the cars or create a bad angle. I for one don't really like street circuits or ovals for open wheel cars.

[Tazio]

What do these guy's think? They are warriors or something.
I think they should make all these carelees boys watch "Red Asphault"
before qualifying, and racing!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oQfDB0d6cTI

[Shifter]

Unions should be formed to accomplish a task, and when that task is accomplished the union should be disbanded until such time as it is useful to form the union again.

Yes there's risk, but look the cars are safe, safer even than last season where Kubica hit the wall at 160mph+ at a severe angle, and then came back to race that very season.

Will tragedy strike again? Eventually, yes. If it is agreed however, tragedy or no tragedy, that saftey standards have fallen, then the GPDA should consider forming up again.

[BDunnell]

I think that anyone that has levelled any criticism at Lewis over this matter should be doubly vocal in their condemnation of Kimi unless it's just for a bit of driver bashing and being a hypocrite rests easily on your shoulders ;)

Quite right. I notice utter silence from certain parties.

As for my view, I don't think anyone should be forced into joining a union, and this applies in this case. Blaming your hectic lifestyle is an incredibly lame excuse, however.

[jso1985]

why join if the man in charge there is Coulthard? he can't talk much about "safe driving" or other safety stuff

[Tazio]

why join if the man in charge there is Coulthard? he can't talk much about "safe driving" or other safety stuffOverthrow him ;)

[jso1985]

Let's ask Massa to do that :p certainly knows how to deal with Coulthard ;)

[Valve Bounce]

two side of the story Where was coultard letting a goddamn mound exist on the exit of a corner. Glock recd a big benefit for being a member. The union is a good idea if they do something. Yes high curbs are bad because they launch cars. Jackie want to lower the speeds down to formula ford speeds. I agree you have to watch the top end but they are in the ballpark. Yes someone will hit at the wrong angle one of these days but that is the risk. The union should be elective and the union should be concerned about what will launch the cars or create a bad angle. I for one don't really like street circuits or ovals for open wheel cars.

You cannot blame the GPDA for this one. I think the organisers and the Australians responsible for track safety issues should have looked into this one.

That so called bump is really a side road which leads up to the back of the Kilda Cricket ground called Junction Oval. When I cycle at Albert Park, we always went up this side road, so I know it very well.

Unfortunately the road is slightly higher than the grass verge of the GP circuit, so when Glock ran off onto the grass, he hit this side road and took off.

More importantly, issues which the GPDA should look at in future is the proposed start of the Oz GP next year at 5 pm because the cars will head directly into the setting sun along pit straight as well as the next short straight up to the Swimming complex.

AS far as Lewis Hamilton not joining the GPDA, he should have answered "No Comment" rather than what he did. Reporters are always trying to make news with a sensationalised headline and he fell for the trap. The best answer always the Rudd approach:"I'll look into it". That's why the call Kevin Rudd the mirror man.

[wedge]

You cannot blame the GPDA for this one. I think the organisers and the Australians responsible for track safety issues should have looked into this one.

That so called bump is really a side road which leads up to the back of the Kilda Cricket ground called Junction Oval. When I cycle at Albert Park, we always went up this side road, so I know it very well.

Unfortunately the road is slightly higher than the grass verge of the GP circuit, so when Glock ran off onto the grass, he hit this side road and took off.

Similar accident to Kubica's in Canada last year. Unfortunately that's a problem with temporary race tracks because side roads/access roads aren't placed at the ideal areas. Going off at speed, the transition from grass to an access road will launch a car.

That's a reason why we have asphalt run off now.

Greg Moore died from a similar accident at California Speedway - spun off onto grass, car launched when it went onto an access road and unfortunately the car flew straight into concrete barrier.

Now all the big ovals in America have asphalt infield off turn 2 so when cars spin coming off the turn they will decelerate and not slide across grass and hit a wall.

[Roamy]

Coultard should have inspected the track to correct deficiencies = he obviously did not. If all of these decisions are on the organizers then why even bother with the GPDA. A couple of passes with a blade and some sand would have make Glocks excursion harmless.

[Ranger]

why join if the man in charge there is Coulthard? he can't talk much about "safe driving" or other safety stuff

The GPDA director is Pedro de la Rosa. ;)


As for my view, I don't think anyone should be forced into joining a union, and this applies in this case.
They shouldn't. However when there isn't enough support then that union will collapse, and this is where a public refusal by a prominent figure isn't very helpful. An example being between 1982 and 1994, where the GPDA was non-existant.


Blaming your hectic lifestyle is an incredibly lame excuse, however.

Yes, yes it is.

But then again, Raikkonen is supposedly not in it purely because he doesn't want to.

Likewise in MotoGP, Casey Stoner isn't in the GPDA equivalent because he just doesn't think it's his job to do something about safety.

But it's their choice, all in all.

[ArrowsFA1]

Lewis is a very new driver in F1 and had a phernominal year last year. In fact, the most intense debut of any driver in my opinion and it is not surprising that he had more than enough going on around him without further distractions.
IIRC Jacques Villeneuve was not a member of the GPDA in his rookie year, but he did join later.

Unions should be formed to accomplish a task, and when that task is accomplished the union should be disbanded until such time as it is useful to form the union again.
I disagree. While safety has unquestionably improved since 1994 that doesn't mean there isn't a need for the GPDA. It was re-formed in the immediate aftermath of Imola (Senna had already begun discussions about doing this before his death) and has continued to work with (and sometimes against!!) the FIA since.

[Knock-on]

IIRC Jacques Villeneuve was not a member of the GPDA in his rookie year, but he did join later.



No, but Jacques had a lot of relevant experience that really qualified him in his rookie year because he came from a similar series as has Seb. However, the first year for even experienced drivers like these is hugely intense and it's quite understandable to let the more experienced drivers deal with the peripheral issues surrounding the racing.

With pure rookies like Lewis coming in, I don't see any problem with taking a season or two to settle in and be able to offer valid experience and contribution to discussions.

Lewis is a phenomenal driver but what could he really have contributed in his debut year? Now, he is consolidating his experiences and I think that by the end of this year, will be in a position to have a positive contribution to the union but at the moment, he really does have too much else to concentrate on rather than pay lip service to the GPDA, media and bleeding hearts on here :laugh:

[ioan]

No, but Jacques had a lot of relevant experience that really qualified him in his rookie year because he came from a similar series as has Seb. However, the first year for even experienced drivers like these is hugely intense and it's quite understandable to let the more experienced drivers deal with the peripheral issues surrounding the racing.

With pure rookies like Lewis coming in, I don't see any problem with taking a season or two to settle in and be able to offer valid experience and contribution to discussions.

Lewis is a phenomenal driver but what could he really have contributed in his debut year? Now, he is consolidating his experiences and I think that by the end of this year, will be in a position to have a positive contribution to the union but at the moment, he really does have too much else to concentrate on rather than pay lip service to the GPDA, media and bleeding hearts on here :laugh:

He could have at least learned from what the others contribute!
Oh, but I forgot that he, being the best thing since sliced bread, already knows everything! :rolleyes:

[Knock-on]

He could have at least learned from what the others contribute!
Oh, but I forgot that he, being the best thing since sliced bread, already knows everything! :rolleyes:

Perhaps if the #1 Ferrari driver and current world Champion decided to offer his wealth of experience, then drivers like Lewis might take more notice ;)

[ioan]

Perhaps if the #1 Ferrari driver and current world Champion decided to offer his wealth of experience, then drivers like Lewis might take more notice ;)

I don't appreciate Kimi's stance either.
As I don't think that DC being a members goes well with the accidents he provoked in Melbourne this and last season.

[maxu05]

I am not standing up for Lewis, but, it is not compulsory for a driver to be a member. Perhaps he and Kimi think that the drivers involved in the upgrades to safety are enough. Too many cooks.......... I think that if someone pushes you to join an organisation/Union that is not compulsory, you tend to dig your heels in and rebel against it. I am not saying that Lewis or Kimi are doing that, but I think they would be less inclined to join now that Jackie has bagged them in public. Stick to your guns Kimi and Lewis IMO.

[ioan]

I think that if someone pushes you to join an organisation/Union that is not compulsory, you tend to dig your heels in and rebel against it.

Only children do that.

[SGWilko]

Only children do that.

Most of the new blood in F1 is barely out of nappies anyway, they start 'em younger every year....

As for heel digging, that reminds me of a few posters on here ;) :laugh:

[BDunnell]

Only children do that.

That's not true. Forcing people to do something often breeds resentment towards the thing they're being forced to do, even if it's not that bad really.

[BDunnell]

I don't appreciate Kimi's stance either.
As I don't think that DC being a members goes well with the accidents he provoked in Melbourne this and last season.

Which seem to be being turned into something far beyond their actual significance. I doubt we'd be hearing anywhere near as much about them from certain individuals if it wasn't for the fact that a Ferrari was involved in the second of the two incidents in question.

[BDunnell]

With pure rookies like Lewis coming in, I don't see any problem with taking a season or two to settle in and be able to offer valid experience and contribution to discussions.

Lewis is a phenomenal driver but what could he really have contributed in his debut year? Now, he is consolidating his experiences and I think that by the end of this year, will be in a position to have a positive contribution to the union

Very fair point.

[maxu05]

Only children do that.

People with their own opinions and values do it also :D

[truefan72]

Lewis, Kimi and Davidson are all not part of the union this year.

All have their reasons and all should be respected.

It is funny how much criticismis laid on his doorstep while peopal forget to mention that the current WDC and long time top F1 driver isn't a member.
someonew who surely has more influence, respect and cache in these matters.

I don't recall a thread in the last couple of years mentioning that kimi ins't in the union, so I suspect this is purely to findsome new wrinkle to criticise LH.

As was said before. It isn't compulsery to join the union and people are free to do as they please. I'm sure if he has any particular "safety concerns" he will make them know to the appropriate people as well as the media, and both he and Kimi might use the media as well, giving them more clout than DC could ever wish for.

Apart from that,it's a bit early for someone in his 20th GP to be talking about "giving back to the sport" or "understanding his obligation" as Sir JS mentioned.

oh well

[DimitraF1]

he just prefer to be at the sponsors parties than in a meeting about safety..
common sense

[wmcot]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/motorsport/7302167.stm

No surprise. He thinks he's invincible foolish boy. Another arrogant notch for LH.

Maybe "Daddy" Ron won't let him join??? :)

[truefan72]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/motorsport/7302167.stm

No surprise. He thinks he's invincible foolish boy. Another arrogant notch for LH.


What were you expecting from him?
He obviously doesn't care to much about anything but himself. And some people were calling MS arrogant, the same people who are now strongly attached to Lewy's backside!


So what does that say about Kimi
who has been in F1 longer and still isn't a member

[BDunnell]

I don't appreciate Kimi's stance either.

Did you know that he wasn't a member at the time Hamilton's lack of membership was brought up?

[ioan]

Did you know that he wasn't a member at the time Hamilton's lack of membership was brought up?

No, I didn't know about Kimi nor about Lewis.
I thought they were all grown up enough to understand that contributing to the GPDA is only going to help them. Obviously I was wrong.

[SGWilko]

he just prefer to be at the sponsors parties than in a meeting about safety..
common sense

Attending sponsor functions is likely to be a contractual requirement........

[Valve Bounce]

No, I didn't know about Kimi nor about Lewis.
I thought they were all grown up enough to understand that contributing to the GPDA is only going to help them. Obviously I was wrong.

I didn't know that either. This is a very shortsighted and selfish attitude by both drivers. It is not as if they are joining a union and fighting for better pay conditions; this is about safety of F1 which affects all aprticipants - ie themselves and their team mates and other friends in F1, as well as the spectators which provide their livelihood.

But then, over the years in my own workplace, I had found some who were worried about the health of all in the office over our antiquated air condition system (Legionaires Desease) while other senior engineers including a New Zealander who lead the charge ridiculing those who were concerned.

In any industry, there are some who are concerned about their workplace and the well being of all, while others who are just concerned with the health of their own pay packet and their own senior position.

Sorry for the rant!!

[PSfan]

Originally I had intended to comment that based on Hamilton's last season that he would be wise to drop a few of his other activities and join the gpda just to develp some camaraderie with the drivers he will be risking his life and theirs during his 5-10-15 year career in f1... And to suggest he hasn't been around long enough to have an opinion on these safety issues is a cop out, least he can do is sit in and listen, and learn...

That was my original thought on it, but then it occured to me. Perhaps "I don't have enough time" despite in my opinion being a poor excuse, is perhaps not his only reason for not joining. I'm sure Hamilton's startline tactics, and his conduct behind the pace car has been brought up during a few GPDA meetings, and I'm sure Hamilton isn't thrilled with the prospect of having to explain his actions in a closed forum amongst his peers... If Michael Schumachers been asked on a few times for an explanation and an apology for some of his antics... I wouldn't be surprised Hamilton will receive similar treatment during his career as well...

[BDunnell]

In any industry, there are some who are concerned about their workplace and the well being of all, while others who are just concerned with the health of their own pay packet and their own senior position.

And, to be fair, there are those who are ignorant of such organisations through no malice or stupidity.

[Valve Bounce]

And, to be fair, there are those who are ignorant of such organisations through no malice or stupidity.


That any F1 driver does not know of the existance of the GPDA and its functions and know how they themselves could benefit from its existance is beyond my limited powers of comprehension.

[wmcot]

As far as I remember, F1 is a free organization (well, as free as Bernie and Max will let it be.) and nobody is required to join the GPDA. That's the equivalent to forcing all employees of a company to join a union whether they want to or not. Kimi, Lewis, and all drivers are free to choose what they will join and when they will join!

[ioan]

And, to be fair, there are those who are ignorant of such organisations through no malice or stupidity.

It's called ignorance! And is not a virtue.

[ioan]

That was my original thought on it, but then it occured to me. Perhaps "I don't have enough time" despite in my opinion being a poor excuse, is perhaps not his only reason for not joining. I'm sure Hamilton's startline tactics, and his conduct behind the pace car has been brought up during a few GPDA meetings, and I'm sure Hamilton isn't thrilled with the prospect of having to explain his actions in a closed forum amongst his peers... If Michael Schumachers been asked on a few times for an explanation and an apology for some of his antics... I wouldn't be surprised Hamilton will receive similar treatment during his career as well...

That's what I thought too. Let's just say he isn't grown up enough to be able to own up to his own actions.

As for MS, he was man enough to accept such a position. Not to mention all he has done to promote road safety and so on.

[Knock-on]

Originally I had intended to comment that based on Hamilton's last season that he would be wise to drop a few of his other activities and join the gpda just to develp some camaraderie with the drivers he will be risking his life and theirs during his 5-10-15 year career in f1... And to suggest he hasn't been around long enough to have an opinion on these safety issues is a cop out, least he can do is sit in and listen, and learn...

That was my original thought on it, but then it occured to me. Perhaps "I don't have enough time" despite in my opinion being a poor excuse, is perhaps not his only reason for not joining. I'm sure Hamilton's start-line tactics, and his conduct behind the pace car has been brought up during a few GPDA meetings, and I'm sure Hamilton isn't thrilled with the prospect of having to explain his actions in a closed forum amongst his peers... If Michael Schumachers been asked on a few times for an explanation and an apology for some of his antics... I wouldn't be surprised Hamilton will receive similar treatment during his career as well...



I appreciate that some feel the need to bash drivers at every opportunity but do you know the work that the GPDA does?

It is not a regulatory body and does not have any power.

They have a half hour meeting at the beginning of the weekend to look at any specific issues to do with the track and offer any suggestions or concerns. These are discussed and the circuit / FIA accept the information on advisement.

Which driver heads up the GPDA? Is it someone that Lewis deals with on a daily basis? Do you think they would discuss any issues and PdlR would raise these. Is his physical attendance necessary?

You also seem to confuse the GPDA role with the drivers briefing which all drivers attend and any issues such as parking ones car where it might block the track during qualifying, or any actions which may result in kicking the crap out of someone are raised ;)

Now, what point are you trying to make?

[SteveA]

As for MS, he was man enough to accept such a position. Not to mention all he has done to promote road safety and so on.

Like driving a taxi mini-van through the public streets at high speed?!

[BDunnell]

It's called ignorance! And is not a virtue.

Did I say it was?

[BDunnell]

I appreciate that some feel the need to bash drivers at every opportunity but do you know the work that the GPDA does?

It is not a regulatory body and does not have any power.

They have a half hour meeting at the beginning of the weekend to look at any specific issues to do with the track and offer any suggestions or concerns. These are discussed and the circuit / FIA accept the information on advisement.

Which driver heads up the GPDA? Is it someone that Lewis deals with on a daily basis? Do you think they would discuss any issues and PdlR would raise these. Is his physical attendance necessary?

You also seem to confuse the GPDA role with the drivers briefing which all drivers attend and any issues such as parking ones car where it might block the track during qualifying, or any actions which may result in kicking the crap out of someone are raised ;)

Now, what point are you trying to make?

:up:

Thank you for that. Some of the attempts to take the moral high ground on this issue are starting to become more than a little infuriating.

[RJL25]

i love mark webbers comments on the issue, mark is obviously a strong believer in the GPDA, it basically went along the lines of "lewis might find himself upside down and not breathing at Jerez in testing one day and would obviously need some help, it wasn't that long ago that that help was unavailable, it is now thanks to the GPDA, as one of the sports biggest stars he should most definetly be involved, we aren't talking about 10 hours a week here, its literally just 20 minutes per fortnight, thats all"

fact is all of the LH fans here are standing up for him and good on them, hes your man and you don't like seeing him be put down, but at the end of the day the GPDA is all about the drivers having a voice when it comes to safety, and they HAVE made a difference because mark webber is absolutely right, the issue of insufficient medical crews at f1 testing was a major problem however thanks solely to the efforts of the GPDA there is now sufficient medical crews at these events. Fact is LH should be involved

[Knock-on]

i love mark webbers comments on the issue, mark is obviously a strong believer in the GPDA, it basically went along the lines of "lewis might find himself upside down and not breathing at Jerez in testing one day and would obviously need some help, it wasn't that long ago that that help was unavailable, it is now thanks to the GPDA, as one of the sports biggest stars he should most definetly be involved, we aren't talking about 10 hours a week here, its literally just 20 minutes per fortnight, thats all"

fact is all of the LH fans here are standing up for him and good on them, hes your man and you don't like seeing him be put down, but at the end of the day the GPDA is all about the drivers having a voice when it comes to safety, and they HAVE made a difference because mark webber is absolutely right, the issue of insufficient medical crews at f1 testing was a major problem however thanks solely to the efforts of the GPDA there is now sufficient medical crews at these events. Fact is LH should be involved

Nobody is saying anything against the GPDA, just pointing out it's role.

The GPDA is a worthwhile institution but drivers are not going to suddenly turn their toes up in droves because Lewis or Kimi don't join.

I think that Lewis will be able to offer positive, reasoned, informed input after his second season and would be disappointed if he doesn't join for next year but I'm not going to lose any sleep if he doesn't.

As for Webber, he has a lot of experience to contribute to driver safety. After all, whenever there's a yellow flag out, it's usually to warn about Mark's broken car :)

[Valve Bounce]

Now, what point are you trying to make?

Well, discussing whether it is appropriate for a crane to be used to get a car out of the gravel trap during a race would be a good start, don't you think?

[Knock-on]

Well, discussing whether it is appropriate for a crane to be used to get a car out of the gravel trap during a race would be a good start, don't you think?

Possibly, although that sort of thing will probably be assessed after the GP by Stewards and fed back to the FIA with comments from teams.

The meeting before the GP tends to concern location of fire stations and Marshals, corners, barriers and access roads etc.

[ioan]

Like driving a taxi mini-van through the public streets at high speed?!

Got any numbers, like how fast he was driving for example?!
Was he punished for infringement of any laws?!

Just because he drove a taxi faster than the said taxi driver usually does it's no proof for driving over the legal limits.

So, again, any proof at hand?!

[BDunnell]

Got any numbers, like how fast he was driving for example?!
Was he punished for infringement of any laws?!

Just because he drove a taxi faster than the said taxi driver usually does it's no proof for driving over the legal limits.

So, again, any proof at hand?!

What, like the proof you have offered to back up your belief that the McLaren CPU was responsible for those Ferrari failures?

I believe that the problem with the Schumacher cab incident was that the cab was not being driven by a licenced taxi driver.

[ioan]

What, like the proof you have offered to back up your belief that the McLaren CPU was responsible for those Ferrari failures?

I only said it was ECU related, not that the ECU was faulty or anything like that.


I believe that the problem with the Schumacher cab incident was that the cab was not being driven by a licenced taxi driver.

You might be right there. I think that noe everyone has the right to drive people around with a cab, he was however driving his family, as he always does.
Also if someone would be blamed, from a legal POV, is the taxi driver for agreeing to let MS drive.

I'm still at a miss why SteveA decided to bring this point up, given that none of us did bring up Lewy's speeding incident in France last year! The one when they took away his license! :D

[BDunnell]

Also if someone would be blamed, from a legal POV, is the taxi driver for agreeing to let MS drive.

I believe that is the case.



I'm still at a miss why SteveA decided to bring this point up, given that none of us did bring up Lewy's speeding incident in France last year! The one when they took away his license! :D

I'm sure he thought he could rely on you to do so. Can't think why...

[Daniel]

I think in a sense it's irrelevant that Kimi isn't a member. If Kimi is asked why he isn't a member and replies with something similarly idiotic then he's also a bonehead. Lets not be tribal about this and fall into the McLaren vs Ferrari argument. Saying that you don't want to join a union which tries to make your job as safe as possible just because you have a lot going on is not acceptable as the halfwit himself has said.

[Robinho]

i'm on the fence - to me it makes sense for all the drivers to be members, its not a massive committment, but collectively they are a greater power if everyone is a member - the same with any union.

however, the work they have done and are doing isn't going to suddenly stop beacuse LH or Kimi aren't members, if they are happy theat their needs and thoughts are being addressed by the GPDA then perhaps they feel no need to join. yes that makes them a little selfish for letting someone else do the work, and it could breed a compacency where the memebrship could drop as a result.

all those against, i wonder if you (Daniel specifically) are members of the unions that deal with your rights as a worker, or if your happy to let others do the union work whilst you are happy to accept the benefits of pay, hours, conditions, health and safety etc that come from it - i know i sure am. in fact i'm not to keen on some of the union's stances, but happy in the conditions i work under that they have worked to get.

ultimately i do agree that all tge drivers ought to be members, but making it a compulsory thing would make it less likely to work.

does anyone know what the current line up of the GPDA is? have Piquet Jnr, Bourdais, Vettel, Sutil, Glock etc all signed up in the last couple of years?

what about other testers like PDLR, is Badoer, Hulkenburg?

[Daniel]

i'm on the fence - to me it makes sense for all the drivers to be members, its not a massive committment, but collectively they are a greater power if everyone is a member - the same with any union.

however, the work they have done and are doing isn't going to suddenly stop beacuse LH or Kimi aren't members, if they are happy theat their needs and thoughts are being addressed by the GPDA then perhaps they feel no need to join. yes that makes them a little selfish for letting someone else do the work, and it could breed a compacency where the memebrship could drop as a result.

all those against, i wonder if you (Daniel specifically) are members of the unions that deal with your rights as a worker, or if your happy to let others do the union work whilst you are happy to accept the benefits of pay, hours, conditions, health and safety etc that come from it - i know i sure am. in fact i'm not to keen on some of the union's stances, but happy in the conditions i work under that they have worked to get.

ultimately i do agree that all tge drivers ought to be members, but making it a compulsory thing would make it less likely to work.

does anyone know what the current line up of the GPDA is? have Piquet Jnr, Bourdais, Vettel, Sutil, Glock etc all signed up in the last couple of years?

what about other testers like PDLR, is Badoer, Hulkenburg?

Firstly I'm unempolyed at the moment :p

Secondly I don't consider getting fired from a deskjob or not getting a payrise as serious as being killed or seriously injured due to safety which could have been better.

[Tazio]

Fred has a novel reason for joining:
"Speaking for myself, I decided to join the GPDA because my life is at risk when I am driving the cars,"

http://www.paddocktalk.com/news/html/modules.php?op=modload&name=News&file=article&sid=79525&newlang=&topic=8&catid=0

[Daniel]

Firstly I'm unempolyed at the moment :p

Secondly I don't consider getting fired from a deskjob or not getting a payrise as serious as being killed or seriously injured due to safety which could have been better.
Unemployed even :p

[wmcot]

Perhaps LH and KR feel they have nothing to add to the GPDA. Then again, if they did come up with an important idea, would they have to be a member of the GPDA to get their idea across?

I suspect they have their personal reasons for not joining - my guess: KR - too introverted and quiet, LH - too many other commitments.

Not a big deal, really. It's not that any decisions by the GPDA are not going to be shared with ALL drivers.

[Valve Bounce]

Also if someone would be blamed, from a legal POV, is the taxi driver for agreeing to let MS drive.
:D

This is the dumbest argument I have ever read here. Based on that logic, if Tony Mokbel lent a shotgun to Carl Williams, who then went and shot and killed Mark Moran, then Carl Williams is not to blame.

[BDunnell]

This is the dumbest argument I have ever read here. Based on that logic, if Tony Mokbel lent a shotgun to Carl Williams, who then went and shot and killed Mark Moran, then Carl Williams is not to blame.

It may be dumb but, legally, only a licensed cab driver can drive a cab, and surely therefore ought not to give up his vehicle to someone he knows isn't licensed. I bet that's in the relevant taxi regulations!

[Valve Bounce]

It may be dumb but, legally, only a licensed cab driver can drive a cab, and surely therefore ought not to give up his vehicle to someone he knows isn't licensed. I bet that's in the relevant taxi regulations!

That may be true and you can also argue that only a person licensed to own a gun can have use of that gun and not lend it to an unlicenced and known criminal who goes on to use that gun to kill someone. You could argue that Benji Veniamin borrowed the gun that was used to kill Victor Peirce, but was the owner of the gun to blame for the murder?

Also, to further discuss your point, it may be illegal for a cab driver to lend his cab under relevant taxi regulations, but if the driver to whom the cab was lent, then went on to drive over and kill someone he wanted to murder, then according to your (and ioan's) argument, the cab driver is to blame.

[TMorel]

What if we swapped the word taxi for "a 700+ page document"
and then swapped taxidriver for Stepney and Schumi for Coughlan, and... oh you know where I'm heading with this one, so I'll stop shall I

[BDunnell]

That may be true and you can also argue that only a person licensed to own a gun can have use of that gun and not lend it to an unlicenced and known criminal who goes on to use that gun to kill someone. You could argue that Benji Veniamin borrowed the gun that was used to kill Victor Peirce, but was the owner of the gun to blame for the murder?

Also, to further discuss your point, it may be illegal for a cab driver to lend his cab under relevant taxi regulations, but if the driver to whom the cab was lent, then went on to drive over and kill someone he wanted to murder, then according to your (and ioan's) argument, the cab driver is to blame.

That's not what I'm saying at all — merely that he ought not to have been allowed to drive the cab, and that this was the driver's responsibility.

[Daniel]

That may be true and you can also argue that only a person licensed to own a gun can have use of that gun and not lend it to an unlicenced and known criminal who goes on to use that gun to kill someone. You could argue that Benji Veniamin borrowed the gun that was used to kill Victor Peirce, but was the owner of the gun to blame for the murder?

Also, to further discuss your point, it may be illegal for a cab driver to lend his cab under relevant taxi regulations, but if the driver to whom the cab was lent, then went on to drive over and kill someone he wanted to murder, then according to your (and ioan's) argument, the cab driver is to blame.
Why are you quoting very Australian specific examples on a very international forum :confused:

[pino]

Please let's stick to the original topic...thanks :)

[nigelred5]

[quote="wmcot"]GPDA. That's the equivalent to forcing all employees of a company to join a union whether they want to or not. QUOTE]

That is common practice in a union shop and happens more than you might believe. My brother was terminated from a grocery store job as a bagger at 14 years old because my parents refused to allow a minor to join the grocery store workers union.

Hamilton is simply demonstrating that regardless of his incredible driving skill, he is still only 23 years old. Drivers begin to realize their mortality as they age and get a few more races under their belt. He's still proving to the field that he is fearless, fast and competent. IMO, coming out and whining about safety at this stage in his career would signal to drivers, uhhh, I'm afraid. That said, one can be a member of an organisation without being an active participant.


I wouldn't even know where to begin with the things I was doing at 23. ;)

[ioan]

IMO, coming out and whining about safety at this stage in his career would signal to drivers, uhhh, I'm afraid.

So, bringing up a safety problem is called whining since Hamilton doesn't do it?!
Wasn't he complaining about FA last year after the Belgian GP?! Maybe he should have talked to the GPDA about it, instead of whining! :p :

[SteveA]

I'm still at a miss why SteveA decided to bring this point up, given that none of us did bring up Lewy's speeding incident in France last year! The one when they took away his license! :D

Lewy and Schuey should attend drivers ed courses. Who do they think they are, Nigel Mansell? ;)

[ioan]

Lewy and Schuey should attend drivers ed courses. Who do they think they are, Nigel Mansell? ;)

:rotflmao:

[Garry Walker]

Jackie Stewart is right - "It is completely wrong not to be involved." I think all the drivers should be members of the GPDA. The organisation is recognised by the FIA and as such has an input into F1 issues, and if the drivers want an effective voice in their sport then the GPDA is the way to have that voice.

It's disappointing that Hamilton has not joined the GPDA, and even more disappointing that the current WDC is not a member :dozey:

Maybe they have decided not to involve themselves with stupid politics. Good for them.


If I was a driver, I wouldn`t join GPDA either.

[Knock-on]

Maybe they have decided not to involve themselves with stupid politics. Good for them.


If I was a driver, I wouldn`t join GPDA either.

In hindsight, keeping as much distance between yourself and the FIA seems like a shrewd move :laugh:

[Garry Walker]

In hindsight, keeping as much distance between yourself and the FIA seems like a shrewd move :laugh:

Yep, I mean who would want to be punished by ze FIA :D

[passmeatissue]

So, bringing up a safety problem is called whining since Hamilton doesn't do it?!
Wasn't he complaining about FA last year after the Belgian GP?! Maybe he should have talked to the GPDA about it, instead of whining! :p :

You don't seem to have much idea what the GPDA does.

[PSfan]

In hindsight, keeping as much distance between yourself and the FIA seems like a shrewd move :laugh:

So your gonna drag the kick the FIA & Maxx while they're down into this thread as well... smart move...

What is the absolute worst that would have happened due to Mosleys recent private activities? He pisses off his wife, catches an STD? What? and please explain how this affects driver safety?

And now what is the worst outcome of Hamilton's recent "I own the race track" slow driving on the raceline during qualifying? We have DEAD RACE DRIVERS from one ramming him from behind as a worst case scenario.

And one final question, who is the bigger idiot where F1 safety is concerned? Mosley or Hamilton? Maybe if Hamilton joined the GPDA then he would realise driving slow on the racing line when you don't have to is DANGEROUS... Somehow I don't think they cover what Mosley did at GPDA meetings...
Gee, I wonder why not!!!

[Tazio]

So your gonna drag the kick the FIA & Maxx while they're down into this thread as well... smart move...

What is the absolute worst that would have happened due to Mosleys recent private activities? He pisses off his wife, catches an STD? What? and please explain how this affects driver safety?

And now what is the worst outcome of Hamilton's recent "I own the race track" slow driving on the raceline during qualifying? We have DEAD RACE DRIVERS from one ramming him from behind as a worst case scenario.

And one final question, who is the bigger idiot where F1 safety is concerned? Mosley or Hamilton? Maybe if Hamilton joined the GPDA then he would realise driving slow on the racing line when you don't have to is DANGEROUS... Somehow I don't think they cover what Mosley did at GPDA meetings...
Gee, I wonder why not!!!
Word up Bro!

[wmcot]

Maybe if Hamilton joined the GPDA then he would realise driving slow on the racing line when you don't have to is DANGEROUS...

Unless he was instructed to do it? Kind of like parking your car on the track at Monaco, wasn't it?

[Tazio]

But he couldn't admit that. If he did, and it was true I would slap that team with a 10 race 10 grid position penalty for ten years! Those were costly mistakes. But the cost of human life is a more valuable comodity( in most parts of the world)

[PSfan]

Unless he was instructed to do it? Kind of like parking your car on the track at Monaco, wasn't it?

Wow, thank you, you and knock-on sure make my condemnation of hamilton alot easier with your slightly off topic, but easy to use references...

I'm not sure where you where going with the "Unless he was instructed to do it?" question, unless you are implying McLeran instructed hamilton to get in Heidfelds way? McLeran claim they told their drivers that there was still cars on fast laps... hadn't realised they may have also instructed they're drivers to hold them up...

As for the MS reference... Thank you again... thanks to the Monaco we do know that GPDA do discuss dangerous driving during their meetings, and it was MS stopping on the track that resulted in JV making a very public seperation from the GPDA as a result of it. As I suggested earlier in this thread... perhap another motivation for Hamilton to not join up is because he is to chicken $h!t to face a room full of his peers when he does something bonehead like not getting off the racing line when he should. thanks again for the reminder... :)

[Tazio]

Yep!

[airshifter]

You don't seem to have much idea what the GPDA does.


Give us an example of what they have done in recent years. Indy proved they have little influence when it matters. It's a great idea with no power over the governing body.

[ioan]

I'm not sure where you where going with the "Unless he was instructed to do it?" question, unless you are implying McLeran instructed hamilton to get in Heidfelds way? McLeran claim they told their drivers that there was still cars on fast laps... hadn't realised they may have also instructed they're drivers to hold them up...

Martin Whitmarsh declared that the drivers were instructed to "hold position". It was 2 weekds ago and my memory is not at it's best so I might be wrong, however try to find his comments and you'll get a better idea.