Global warming?

[Eki]

They just said on the news that there was no thermal winter in southern Finland this year, and it is the first time in recorded history that this has happened. Thermal winter means that the temperature remains below 0 C for at least five days in a row. So, no snowshoeing this year.

[Azumanga Davo]

You'll have to get the swimsuit and flippers out instead then. ;)

[Daniel]

Global warming or just changes in weather patterns that are more complex than we understand? :) I think last winter here last year was 1.7 degrees warmer than average :) Does that mean in 100 years or 50 years we'll have 40 degree days in winter? I think not. 10 years time and everyone will be bitching about how ****ing cold it is.

[BDunnell]

Global warming or just changes in weather patterns that are more complex than we understand? :) I think last winter here last year was 1.7 degrees warmer than average :) Does that mean in 100 years or 50 years we'll have 40 degree days in winter? I think not. 10 years time and everyone will be bitching about how ****ing cold it is.

And that, too, would be an example of climate change, which is a far better term than global warming.

By the way, who do you mean when you refer to 'changes in weather patterns that are more complex than we understand?' You, or those who actually do know about these matters, having studied them for many years?

[Easy Drifter]

Across most of central Canada and certainly Eastern Canada we have had record or near record snowfall, since records were kept. But we haven't had super cold snaps like -35/40C. The prairies have though, far more than normal. Here just several -20/25c and that is quite normal.

[tippypeg57]

The ice roads in Scandinavia last year were open for 70 days...that is 20 days longer than normal...whaty is Global Warming? Its political balloney and does not exist...climate change is something that has gone on since evolution...there is the clue, EVOLUTION. The world is evolving!

[Brown, Jon Brow]

They just said on the news that there was no thermal winter in southern Finland this year, and it is the first time in recorded history that this has happened. Thermal winter means that the temperature remains below 0 C for at least five days in a row. So, no snowshoeing this year.

OH NO!!!!!!! :eek:

The apocalypse has finally begun.

[Daniel]

And that, too, would be an example of climate change, which is a far better term than global warming.

By the way, who do you mean when you refer to 'changes in weather patterns that are more complex than we understand?' You, or those who actually do know about these matters, having studied them for many years?
But Climate change is inevitable. The climate of the planet is not a static thing. I don't claim to be an expert but there are enough scientists out there who disagree with the status quo to make me continue to have a healthy level of skepticism in regards to what is a short period of research on something that's been going on for a long long time :)

[rah]

But Climate change is inevitable. The climate of the planet is not a static thing. I don't claim to be an expert but there are enough scientists out there who disagree with the status quo to make me continue to have a healthy level of skepticism in regards to what is a short period of research on something that's been going on for a long long time :)

Climate change is inevitable. It is the speed that is the concern.

It isn't just the climate that is changing, the very chemical composition of our atmosphere is changing.

Lets say you go to a hospital and see ten different doctors. Nine of them say you have lung cancer and one of them says you do not. what would you do? Skepticism is fine and I think of myself as a skeptic, but you have to look at all the evidence you can and then make up your mind. If that one doctor happens to be the loudest does that mean you should listen to him?

[Rollo]

Climate Change is not happening. Al Gore is throwing rocks into the sea and paying Polar Bears to hide ice. The Now Show said so, so it must be true, right?

[Daniel]

Climate change is inevitable. It is the speed that is the concern.

It isn't just the climate that is changing, the very chemical composition of our atmosphere is changing.

Lets say you go to a hospital and see ten different doctors. Nine of them say you have lung cancer and one of them says you do not. what would you do? Skepticism is fine and I think of myself as a skeptic, but you have to look at all the evidence you can and then make up your mind. If that one doctor happens to be the loudest does that mean you should listen to him?
Lets not have that discussion again ;) I respect your right to hold your opinion and lets leave it at that. You're not going to change my mind anytime soon and vice versa :)

[rah]

Climate Change is not happening. Al Gore is throwing rocks into the sea and paying Polar Bears to hide ice. The Now Show said so, so it must be true, right?

Lol I love it. although I have no idea what the Now Show is.

[rah]

Lets not have that discussion again ;) I respect your right to hold your opinion and lets leave it at that. You're not going to change my mind anytime soon and vice versa :)

Fair enough, but if you bring up your view I HAVE to bring up mine. Its just the way I was made.

[Daniel]

Fair enough, but if you bring up your view I HAVE to bring up mine. Its just the way I was made.
Fair enough :up: Just less painful to agree to disagree though :p

[Firstgear]

No no no. One of you two must be wrong. Now put those gloves back on, get back in the ring, and have at it!

[rah]

Well I am right then. It was cooler this morning, and now it is hot. Beat that for an argument.

[Tomi]

The ice roads in Scandinavia last year were open for 70 days...that is 20 days longer than normal...whaty is Global Warming? Its political balloney and does not exist...climate change is something that has gone on since evolution...there is the clue, EVOLUTION. The world is evolving!

From where did you get the iceroad info, sounds unlikely to me, post a link please?

[Eki]

From where did you get the iceroad info, sounds unlikely to me, post a link please?
I haven't heard that either. And Scandinavia is big, some parts of it may have a cold winter while some others don't. I was talking about southern Finland. Northern Finland still had a thermal winter. I read that the winter on the southern coast of Finland this year was like a typical Denmark winter.

[gadjo_dilo]

Global warming or not, I wonder like the poet: "mais ou sont les neiges d'antan?" :laugh: :laugh:

[pino]

Global warming or not...is snowing here (in Denmark) at the moment :s

[Daniel]

Global warming or not...is snowing here (in Denmark) at the moment :s

Better run Pino. There will be an ice age soon and glaciers will cover Europe once more :D

[Azumanga Davo]

Well I am right then. It was cooler this morning, and now it is hot. Beat that for an argument.

You forget to tell us what the low pressure system is doing tomorrow and whether that sou-south westerly is going to ruin my day of sailing. :D

[Camelopard]

Global warming or not...is snowing here (in Denmark) at the moment :s

And it's stinking hot hot here in Canberra (not much fun when one is on nightshift :( ) when summer should have well and truely ended. Adelaide is much worse off than us though:

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/section/2/story.cfm?c_id=2&objectid=10498712

Weather patterns are all over the place!

This report is rather worrying though:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/environment/2008/mar/16/glaciers.climatechange

"Glaciers act like gigantic water towers: snow falls on the top in wet seasons, where it freezes and compacts over years, while melting water at the bottom is released gradually, keeping rivers flowing even in the hottest weather. 'Glaciers are like a bank,' says Professor Wilfried Haeberli, director of the World Glacier Monitoring Service. 'You have income - mainly snow - and you have expenditure - mainly melting: the difference between snowfall and melting is the yearly balance.' "

"The problem is perhaps most acute in Asia, where glaciers are an important source for nine major rivers which run through land occupied by 2.4 billion people. In Pakistan, for example, 80 per cent of agricultural land is irrigated by the Indus, which the WWF last year highlighted as one of the world's 10 big at-risk rivers because retreating glaciers provide 70-80 per cent of its flow."

[BDunnell]

Climate change is inevitable. It is the speed that is the concern.

It isn't just the climate that is changing, the very chemical composition of our atmosphere is changing.

Lets say you go to a hospital and see ten different doctors. Nine of them say you have lung cancer and one of them says you do not. what would you do? Skepticism is fine and I think of myself as a skeptic, but you have to look at all the evidence you can and then make up your mind. If that one doctor happens to be the loudest does that mean you should listen to him?

Very well put.

[BDunnell]

Lets not have that discussion again ;) I respect your right to hold your opinion and lets leave it at that. You're not going to change my mind anytime soon and vice versa :)

Your mind seemed to change quickly enough when you read/saw a report being sceptical about climate change... ;)

[Daniel]

Your mind seemed to change quickly enough when you read/saw a report being sceptical about climate change... ;)
:confused:

[BDunnell]

A while back. You started what turned into a long thread by saying that you'd seen something that had made you change your mind.

[Daniel]

A while back. You started what turned into a long thread by saying that you'd seen something that had made you change your mind.
Don't remember that one :confused:

[Daniel]

Very well put.
Not really. Cancer is something which we have a fairly good understanding of. You can do tests on someone as say "Yes you have cancer" and "No you don't have cancer". Fairly straight forward there although there can be error. Does any of the scientists come from a planet where global warming has happened and there's been a reduction in CO2 levels which has arrested the temperature rise? See what I mean? But lets talk about this in 20 years when we actually know the answer :) In the meantime I will err on the side of caution :)

I think this is interesting :)

http://www.dailytech.com/A+Compost+Filled+Cure+For+Global+Warming/article10845.htm

[BDunnell]

Not really. Cancer is something which we have a fairly good understanding of. You can do tests on someone as say "Yes you have cancer" and "No you don't have cancer". Fairly straight forward there although there can be error. Does any of the scientists come from a planet where global warming has happened and there's been a reduction in CO2 levels which has arrested the temperature rise? See what I mean? But lets talk about this in 20 years when we actually know the answer :) In the meantime I will err on the side of caution :)

But those scientists would say the same about global warming as cancer specialists do about cancer. How do you know they are wrong?

[Daniel]

But those scientists would say the same about global warming as cancer specialists do about cancer. How do you know they are wrong?
I don't ;)

But I do like to listen to both sides of the story. The thing is with cancer no one doubts that it exists and that it can be detected.

But anyway I think we should all be moving towards some of the things which have been suggested. We've got 2 offshore windfarms already built around here, 1 being built soon, a huge one in the planning stages and 1 onshore one which has already been built too. I fully support things like this because this means the world is closer to telling Russia were to shove it's gas supplies as well as being closer to being a bit more free of oil price hikes too. Plus as an added bonus IF we are warming the planet this will lessen our impact.

[gadjo_dilo]

I don't ;)
Plus as an added bonus IF we are warming the planet this will lessen our impact.

Are you sure you know ALL impacts of global warming?

[Daniel]

Are you sure you know ALL impacts of global warming?

I'm sure I quite know where you've coming from

[gadjo_dilo]

I'm sure I quite know where you've coming from
I'm sure you're wrong. :laugh:

[Daniel]

I'm sure you're wrong. :laugh:

No really I don't know what point you're trying to make

[JSH]

IMO : The root cause is the world is over populated. We need to stop reproducing....

And in the meantime, we all need to stop exhaling and farting.

[rah]

Not really. Cancer is something which we have a fairly good understanding of. You can do tests on someone as say "Yes you have cancer" and "No you don't have cancer". Fairly straight forward there although there can be error. Does any of the scientists come from a planet where global warming has happened and there's been a reduction in CO2 levels which has arrested the temperature rise? See what I mean? But lets talk about this in 20 years when we actually know the answer :) In the meantime I will err on the side of caution :)

I think this is interesting :)

http://www.dailytech.com/A+Compost+Filled+Cure+For+Global+Warming/article10845.htm

Cancer is not yet fully understood. Hence in that example it is theoretically possible for that one doctor to be correct. However the safest thing to do is listen to the other nine. 20 years will be too late, but at least you realise the benefits.

The article was interesting, however it does not talk about methane at all which is slightly worrying. Composting does emmit quite a bit of methane.

[janneppi]

Across most of central Canada and certainly Eastern Canada we have had record or near record snowfall, since records were kept. But we haven't had super cold snaps like -35/40C. I saw an article somewhere that because there hasn't been that many occations of very cold temperatures in Canada in the past two years, some insects that othervise would die due to cold have increased in number causing damage to trees in large areas.

[Daniel]

Cancer is not yet fully understood. Hence in that example it is theoretically possible for that one doctor to be correct. However the safest thing to do is listen to the other nine. 20 years will be too late, but at least you realise the benefits.

The article was interesting, however it does not talk about methane at all which is slightly worrying. Composting does emmit quite a bit of methane.

You know what I mean though :) With a person's body you can poke and probe and take measurements and have a fairly good understanding of what's going on because there are millions of people to study and a person's lifetime is fairly short as opposed to the earth which isn't dead just yet.

Two articles which suggest that the methane produced by composting rather than sending your waste to landfill is not that big an amount. But of course you can prove anything with links on the internet.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/earth/main.jhtml?xml=/earth/2007/10/15/eacomp315.xml
http://ruscombegreen.blogspot.com/2008/01/council-shredder-on-tour-and-compost.html

[Breeze]

Two articles which suggest that the methane produced by composting rather than sending your waste to landfill is not that big an amount. But of course you can prove anything with links on the internet.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/earth/main.jhtml?xml=/earth/2007/10/15/eacomp315.xml
http://ruscombegreen.blogspot.com/2008/01/council-shredder-on-tour-and-compost.html
A landfill is a giant compost heap. The good news is that, at least here in North America, new landfills are being designed to harness the energy of the methane being produced.

[Daniel]

A landfill is a giant compost heap. The good news is that, at least here in North America, new landfills are being designed to harness the energy of the methane being produced.
The articles explain though that if the compost heap has a high surface area to volume ratio then the methane gets metabolised. Problem is that when you don't have lots of area it doesn't get metabolised and builds up and is eventually released.

[rah]

You know what I mean though :) With a person's body you can poke and probe and take measurements and have a fairly good understanding of what's going on because there are millions of people to study and a person's lifetime is fairly short as opposed to the earth which isn't dead just yet.

Two articles which suggest that the methane produced by composting rather than sending your waste to landfill is not that big an amount. But of course you can prove anything with links on the internet.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/earth/main.jhtml?xml=/earth/2007/10/15/eacomp315.xml
http://ruscombegreen.blogspot.com/2008/01/council-shredder-on-tour-and-compost.html

I know what you mean, but it's not quite right. There are millions of slightly different people that are all attacked by cancer in a slightly different fashion. At least with studying the planet there is thousands of scientists studying only one object.

[Zico]

I don't know if any of you have seen an article published yesterday by the Telegraph:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/opinion/main.jhtml?xml=/opinion/2008/11/16/do1610.xml

In essence, it seems that the main database - on which all the global warming scares are based, has been using dud data:


Quote:
On Monday, Nasa's Goddard Institute for Space Studies (GISS), which is run by Al Gore's chief scientific ally, Dr James Hansen, and is one of four bodies responsible for monitoring global temperatures, announced that last month was the hottest October on record.

No surprises there - after all, rising temperatures are a certainty - aren't they? The article continues:


Quote:
This was startling. Across the world there were reports of unseasonal snow and plummeting temperatures last month, from the American Great Plains to China, and from the Alps to New Zealand. China's official news agency reported that Tibet had suffered its "worst snowstorm ever". In the US, the National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration registered 63 local snowfall records and 115 lowest-ever temperatures for the month, and ranked it as only the 70th-warmest October in 114 years.

So what explained the anomaly?


Quote:
GISS's computerised temperature maps seemed to show readings across a large part of Russia had been up to 10 degrees higher than normal. But when expert readers of the two leading warming-sceptic blogs, Watts Up With That and Climate Audit, began detailed analysis of the GISS data they made an astonishing discovery. The reason for the freak figures was that scores of temperature records from Russia and elsewhere were not based on October readings at all. Figures from the previous month had simply been carried over and repeated two months running.

The error was so glaring that when it was reported on the two blogs - run by the US meteorologist Anthony Watts and Steve McIntyre, the Canadian computer analyst who won fame for his expert debunking of the notorious "hockey stick" graph - GISS began hastily revising its figures. This only made the confusion worse because, to compensate for the lowered temperatures in Russia, GISS claimed to have discovered a new "hotspot" in the Arctic - in a month when satellite images were showing Arctic sea-ice recovering so fast from its summer melt that three weeks ago it was 30 per cent more extensive than at the same time last year.

So - the GW alarmists came clean, surely...?


Quote:
GISS spokesman lamely explained that the reason for the error in the Russian figures was that they were obtained from another body, and that GISS did not have resources to exercise proper quality control over the data it was supplied with. This is an astonishing admission: the figures published by Dr Hansen's institute are not only one of the four data sets that the UN's Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change (IPCC) relies on to promote its case for global warming, but they are the most widely quoted, since they consistently show higher temperatures than the others.

If there is one scientist more responsible than any other for the alarm over global warming it is Dr Hansen, who set the whole scare in train back in 1988 with his testimony to a US Senate committee chaired by Al Gore. Again and again, Dr Hansen has been to the fore in making extreme claims over the dangers of climate change.

To be honest, I'm staggered that this story has been hidden away - it should be up there in the headlines - something along the lines of: 'GW Alarmist Scientists Exposed As Shoddy Amateurs'...
Well - at least we can be sure that the government will take notice and scrap all the proposed GW taxes, eh?

[Daniel]

I saw this but couldn't be bothered posting it because I knew the reaction it'd get.

Have a read of this too :)

http://www.accuweather.com/ukie/b@stardi-europe-blog.asp?partner=accuweather


You'll have to change the @ to an a for the link to work though :)

[rah]

It's one month and the error has been fixed. I can hardly see the foundations of the climate change theory being torn down.

[Roamy]

They just said on the news that there was no thermal winter in southern Finland this year, and it is the first time in recorded history that this has happened. Thermal winter means that the temperature remains below 0 C for at least five days in a row. So, no snowshoeing this year.

EKI you should be pissing down both legs - You may be able to grow a flower!!

[Daniel]

It's one month and the error has been fixed. I can hardly see the foundations of the climate change theory being torn down.

It just shows how willing Climate Change believers are willing to forget to check data as long as it supports their theory. You can bet that if the data had showed a 10 degree drop in temps it would have been checked and verified before publication.

My beef with climate change science is simple. They predicted higher temperatures which hasn't eventuated and now they're just predicting unpredictability in the weather which preys on the fact that a good deal of the idiots on this planet feel that weather is predictable and static. We had snow here in October for the first time in 20 or 30 years. All these floods, droughts and hurricanes may be more than the average but it's not all without precedent. I mean come on. Predict something ****ing real for gods sake, not just that there will be unpredictable events because the nature of weather is such that it will always be unpredictable.

When I came here to the UK in 2006 we had a bit of rain a few days after I arrived and then it was dry and warm through until December when it got cold. Then January came and it was bloody windy, then April came and it was unseasonally warm, then after that it was bloody wet and rainy and it still is. All of which the climate change twits never envisaged as being part of "climate change" until it happened and now it's part of their argument. If we have a cold winter will they say that this is part of global warming? Will they start to say that cold winters, delightful springs, warm summers and windy autumnal weather with yellow leaves blowing about are part of global warming?

I'd really love for the scientists to come out and give a summary of what's going to happen over the next 5-10 years. I don't want to know what the weather is going to be like for Christmas next year but it would be interesting if they could predict whether 2012 will have a wet, dry, warm or cold summer.

I still back renewable and nuclear energy however, this is for 2 reasons. To give the Russians the finger and IF my rather unscientific thoughts on Climate Change are wrong then it's an insurance policy.

[rah]

Actually recently there was a paper published which showed a drop in ocean temps. It was later checked and there was a fault found, but it took longer for them to find the fault because most people are checking the higher temp results to find faults not the other way round.

The hype and misinformation regarding climate change is terrible. But most of it is with the deniers. I am all for skeptics, but most of the skeptics I have seen are all one sided.

I really think you need to read more into the subject. World temps are still increasing, it is a fact.

[Daniel]

Actually recently there was a paper published which showed a drop in ocean temps. It was later checked and there was a fault found, but it took longer for them to find the fault because most people are checking the higher temp results to find faults not the other way round.

The hype and misinformation regarding climate change is terrible. But most of it is with the deniers. I am all for skeptics, but most of the skeptics I have seen are all one sided.

I really think you need to read more into the subject. World temps are still increasing, it is a fact.

Are they still increasing? Why has the media reported that temperatures have fallen in the last few years?

The proof really is in the pudding. If this all turns out to be right I owe you a beer or something don't I :)

[rah]

Are they still increasing? Why has the media reported that temperatures have fallen in the last few years?

The proof really is in the pudding. If this all turns out to be right I owe you a beer or something don't I :)

http://data.giss.nasa.gov/gistemp/graphs/

Have a look at the graph 1880 to present. Looks like the global temp is still increasing substantially.

Sure we can put a beer on it. But no rubbish it has to be a decent one.

I suppose even if you are not convinced about global warming, you should still be worried about the acidification of the ocean. Personally I like seafood, and i like snorkeling on coral reefs.

[Eki]

EKI you should be pissing down both legs - You may be able to grow a flower!!
It's late November and the first snow hasn't come yet to where I live. Usually it comes late October or early November.