How strong is the Ferrari?

[Ranger]

Everyone has talked the talk about Ferrari's off-season and here's what they have to show after race 1/18:

Mechanical failures in both qualifying and race. A double retirement in the race. Just 1 solitary point scored. I had trouble believing that.

The reds need to start their season again in a week's time in Malaysia. If Ferrari don't rectify those mechanical problems licketty-split then McLaren will walk this title.

And nobody wants that.

[F1boat]

They have now a single point - Barrichello is disqualified.

[ArrowsFA1]

Ferrari cannot have another weekend like this, surely. A combination of bad luck, schoolboy errors and unreliability was not the best way to start the year, but winter testing suggests they have the best car out there and I suspect they'll bounce back strongly next weekend.

[F1boat]

I think that in Malaysia Hamilton will dominate again and Alonso will be even stronger.

[Colin]

Maybe they need to go back to the old practice of starting the new season with the old car?

[ioan]

Bring Todt back!
Domenicalli and his team made the worst calls from all the teams out there.
Both Kimi and Felipe should have been called for refueling during the SC period when Lewis did his, and they would have had a chance for the win and definitely for the podium.

The drivers are good, Felipe impressed me with all the overtaking moves he manged. Kimi had good pace but was way to inpatient with Heiki and Glock and made more unforced errors.
The cars looked also in good shape, they managed to do half distance on the softer tires! :eek: That means that they are very balanced!

However the tactical team is pants.
They should have fueled Felipe up to the bottom at his very first stop, instead they called him in again 1 lap later.
They didn't take advantage of the SC periods.

Worst race by the Ferarri tacticians in few years. Let's hope they got rid of all the bad luck in this first race.

[Ranger]

Bring Todt back!
Domenicalli and his team made the worst calls from all the teams out there.
Both Kimi and Felipe should have been called for refueling during the SC period when Lewis did his, and they would have had a chance for the win and definitely for the podium.

The drivers are good, Felipe impressed me with all the overtaking moves he manged. Kimi had good pace but was way to inpatient with Heiki and Glock and made more unforced errors.
The cars looked also in good shape, they managed to do half distance on the softer tires! :eek: That means that they are very balanced!

However the tactical team is pants.
They should have fueled Felipe up to the bottom at his very first stop, instead they called him in again 1 lap later.
They didn't take advantage of the SC periods.

Worst race by the Ferarri tacticians in few years. Let's hope they got rid of all the bad luck in this first race.

Tactics won't mean **** in the following races if the car doesn't last the distance. :\

[ioan]

I don't know yet what happened but it was either that damn fuel pump for both or Felipe ran out of fuel as they didn't call him in.

[THE_LIBERATOR]

Bring Todt back!
Domenicalli and his team made the worst calls from all the teams out there.
Surely Honda take that dubious accolade? Ferrari after all did score a point.

[F1boat]

The dream team is gone and sadly what I saw reminded me of season like 1996 - bad decisions, poor reliabilty...

[Valve Bounce]

It was the heat!! Caused a rush of blood at the wrong time.

[Dave B]

Methinks they're missing the Brawn / Todt / Schumacher dream team. Such basic errors would have been unforgivable a few years ago.

[markabilly]

The dream team is gone and sadly what I saw reminded me of season like 1996 - bad decisions, poor reliabilty...


Methinks they're missing the Brawn / Todt / Schumacher dream team. Such basic errors would have been unforgivable a few years ago.

Last year, I had the feeling they were running on past momentum from the years of MS, brawn and Todt...running out of fuel in Qing and so forth such that their day in the sun was beginning to fade, then at the end of last year, they appearred to catch up [or was it Mac choking up...so that they did not catch up, but Mac simply slowed down]

This first race, a fast car but otherwise a disorganized mess....will it get better or will it continue to slide down hill? Right now, it don't look that good--although when it ran the car seemed to be fine. But it is the little things that really matter....

[Tazio]

Ferrari's reliability problem may be relatively minor, as it appears it may only be a fuel delivery problem.
Ferrari proper did not have an engine failure. Some poor, yet difficult decisions were made.
Some of the more critical ones would not have presented themselves if Kimi had been able to participate in Q3.
Their ability to run well and long on tyres (especially soft) will be an advantage.
But it was a bit of a disadvantage this race as Kimi will probably not be in too many situations
where he feels the need to pass a McLaren on fresh tyres with a Ferrari on the softer compound,
with a half a race on them!

[Big Ben]

The drivers are good, Felipe impressed me with all the overtaking moves he manged.

Massa was quite impressive... he did manage to cause another accident... or was it somebody's else fault as usual? keep up the good work Felipe and don't forget to whine a bit too...

[VkmSpouge]

Ferrari need to address the reliability issues first and foremost but with only a week between races they won't have the time. Ferrari will have to hope the car holds together in Sepang.
I don't think Felipe Massa and Kimi Raikkonen will make the same mistakes in Malaysia.

[Brown, Jon Brow]

Felipe impressed me with all the overtaking moves he manged.

Bash!!!! bye bye Coulthard!!!

[DonJippo]

It was the heat!!

You are right on that, expect to see more the same in coming "hot" GPs.

[Nikki Katz]

I wouldn't worry too much, Ferrari have had a pretty shakey first half of the previous two seasons but have still challenged the title to the end, winning it last year. It's just one race.

[jens]

We didn't get a proper view about Ferrari's race pace, especially compared to main contenders as BMW and McLaren.

It's harsh to say, but Ferrari was the worst team of the weekend! They lacked in every area. Poor strategy, poor reliability, poor perfomance by drivers. It's even hard to believe that this is the same team, who was expected to dominate this year. :p :

Surely they shouldn't be written off, but what's obvious - there's no Ferrari-domination!

[mstillhere]

Ferrari cannot have another weekend like this, surely. A combination of bad luck, schoolboy errors and unreliability was not the best way to start the year, but winter testing suggests they have the best car out there and I suspect they'll bounce back strongly next weekend.

Well, Kimi was able to drive incredibly fast after he passed Barrichello. Proving that as far as speed is concerned the car has it. I am wondering though if they left in Italy the car they used to test in the winter and brought to Australia an other car. It's way beyond my understanding how they could do such a horrible job. Not to mention that ALL Ferrari engines did not make it to the end of the race. That's way worrysome.

[janneppi]

For Kimi's sake I hope this was just "accidento bizarro" and things get back to the level they should be with reliability and tactics. It seemed that Ferrari froze when things weren't predictable.

[mstillhere]

Massa was quite impressive... he did manage to cause another accident... or was it somebody's else fault as usual? keep up the good work Felipe and don't forget to whine a bit too...

Surprisingly enough Massa seemed to be a little arrogant the way he was driving. But I think overall they were under pressure to do well on a track where Ferrari traditionally does very well. As someone else said it before though, I would be carefull in getting ready to go to the Ferrari's funeral already. Ferrari, as you'll know very well has always shown the ability to get out the hole they found themselves in many times. So....
I would be definetely ok with Ferrari screwing up the first race and McLaren doing the same with the last one :)
Totally ok with it

[mstillhere]

Bring Todt back!
Domenicalli and his team made the worst calls from all the teams out there.
Both Kimi and Felipe should have been called for refueling during the SC period when Lewis did his, and they would have had a chance for the win and definitely for the podium.

The drivers are good, Felipe impressed me with all the overtaking moves he manged. Kimi had good pace but was way to inpatient with Heiki and Glock and made more unforced errors.
The cars looked also in good shape, they managed to do half distance on the softer tires! :eek: That means that they are very balanced!

However the tactical team is pants.
They should have fueled Felipe up to the bottom at his very first stop, instead they called him in again 1 lap later.
They didn't take advantage of the SC periods.

Worst race by the Ferarri tacticians in few years. Let's hope they got rid of all the bad luck in this first race.

I don't think the new guys are totally in charge. After all Todt, Ms and Montezemolo are still there and ready to intervene if necessary. I am sure that they already talked to the new people and also I am sure they (the new guys) are feeling the pressure from above and I am sure they are not going to screw up a third time. So, IMO the next race is going to be very crucial for them.

[mstillhere]

Ferrari need to address the reliability issues first and foremost but with only a week between races they won't have the time. Ferrari will have to hope the car holds together in Sepang.
I don't think Felipe Massa and Kimi Raikkonen will make the same mistakes in Malaysia.

They are not going to make the same mistakes again IF they are going to qualify well. Unfortunately when you start from the back you'll have to take your chances, as they did yesterday. Starting from the first row is always the safest spot.

[ioan]

I don't think the new guys are totally in charge. After all Todt, Ms and Montezemolo are still there and ready to intervene if necessary. I am sure that they already talked to the new people and also I am sure they (the new guys) are feeling the pressure from above and I am sure they are not going to screw up a third time. So, IMO the next race is going to be very crucial for them.

I think that Todt might be in Sepang next week end, just to make sure they don't screw it twice in a row.

[SGWilko]

Unfortunately when you start from the back you'll have to take your chances, as they did yesterday. Starting from the first row is always the safest spot.

What is Massa's excuse then? I think all of us that watched the race would say that they thought Massa went off due to contact. When the replay showed that half way round the corner he actually ran out of talent, the niggling thought that he will struggle 'sans TC' was proven to be very well 'thunk'

[ioan]

What is Massa's excuse then? I think all of us that watched the race would say that they thought Massa went off due to contact. When the replay showed that half way round the corner he actually ran out of talent, the niggling thought that he will struggle 'sans TC' was proven to be very well 'thunk'

Man, you stuffed your .... so far up your ... it's incredible.
Massa spun once, Kimi spun twice!
Senna spun, Prost did it too, MS also and the list goes on and on!
So what? Does that make less good drivers?!

PS: At least they didn't do it on the pit entry road at 60 mph and with TC! :p : :laugh:
And BTW I almost forgot to answer your question, Massa was trying to go around HK on the outside when he spun. Good effort on his part I say.

[SGWilko]

Man, you stuffed your .... so far up your ... it's incredible.

Speak up Son, its a bit muffled in here. :laugh:

Massa spun once, Kimi spun twice!
Senna spun, Prost did it too, MS also and the list goes on and on! Well, in the days of Senna & co, the engines were like on/off switches..... As for both Ferrari drivers doing syncronised spinning, they need to pull their socks up

So what? Does that make less good drivers?! Lets see....


PS: At least they didn't do it on the pit entry road at 60 mph and with TC! :p : :laugh: Shucks, did the Ferrari's have shot rears today, are you making excuses for them? :rolleyes:

Learn to relax a little, I'm only voicing opinion, don't take it personal. ;)

[BDunnell]

And BTW I almost forgot to answer your question, Massa was trying to go around HK on the outside when he spun. Good effort on his part I say.

Would you say that of a non-Ferrari driver, I can't help asking myself, or would you criticise them for making a mistake?

Yes, it was a mistake, but nothing like this deserves vitriol. It's only racing, and it all added to a highly entertaining race. Who cares if mistakes get made? They always have and they always will. They're not all stupid and many are excusable, just like the ones we all make.

[ioan]

Would you say that of a non-Ferrari driver, I can't help asking myself, or would you criticise them for making a mistake?

Honestly I don't know. I can only hope that I would do the same.
Since MS went I find myself supporting several drivers and I'm as subjective as everyone else. However I can also appreciate drivers that I don't particularly like.

I guess we will find out when and if something happens.

[ioan]

Speak up Son, its a bit muffled in here. :laugh:

Sorry for that one. I take it back.

[BDunnell]

Honestly I don't know. I can only hope that I would do the same.
Since MS went I find myself supporting several drivers and I'm as subjective as everyone else. However I can also appreciate drivers that I don't particularly like.

I guess we will find out when and if something happens.

:up:

Hopefully, it won't, we can all bear these things in mind, and we can all be civil on here this season. It promises to be much more fun than last, and I hope the discussion here can be too.

[mstillhere]

What is Massa's excuse then? I think all of us that watched the race would say that they thought Massa went off due to contact. When the replay showed that half way round the corner he actually ran out of talent, the niggling thought that he will struggle 'sans TC' was proven to be very well 'thunk'

massa did not start the race from pole position. He was fourth.

[Valve Bounce]

I think several drivers need to do a lot more testing without Trax. But having said that, I don't mind them not having Trax at all - at least they will have to learn to drive the car themselves more and rely less on the computer to bail them out.

[Osella]

I think several drivers need to do a lot more testing without Trax. But having said that, I don't mind them not having Trax at all - at least they will have to learn to drive the car themselves more and rely less on the computer to bail them out.

It was interesting that when Heikki passed Alonso it was when Alonso ran onto the kerb/grasscrete and you could hear the engine scream as the tyres spun. Methinks last year that pass would not have happened as Alonso would not have lost traction, and Kimi would not have had his spin as he would have had engine braking.

As regards Ferrari generally, the pace was there from both drivers. And I'm not sure that their incidents didn't at least contribute to their engine failures..
However, the tyre usage looked amazing compared to anyone else except BMW, who did not have the same kind of pace overall. So I think they are still in good shape, but not pitting Kimi under the SC was bizarre.....

Pace good, tactics need maybe an overhaul in the decision-making department, but I think it's too early to suggest major problems yet owing to their good pace and tyre usage.

[Shalafi]

Its obvious that Ferrari has a good racepace. But problem is same than last year, qualifying and reliability. And reliability is the biggest issue, because for example had Kimi not had reliability problems in quali and race, the outcome would have been completely different. So, whatever is causing that reliability problem, they must fix it and fast. Then make a car good for quali also, then its up to drivers and Im sure they can do the job. They just cant give Mclaren easy wins like this because Macs reliability is such that the gap is slow to reduce if drivers do a consistent job. And both, Lewis and Heikki, are very consistent drivers. So in a nutshell, they are strong in some areas but have trouble in other areas. Mclaren is a stronger package at the moment.

[pino]

I think that Ferrari just had a bad day, I am sure they will get their revange already in Malaysia :D

ps: ioan, stop bashing the italians :p :

[ioan]

I think that Ferrari just had a bad day, I am sure they will get their revange already in Malaysia :D

Yep, unless they start 10 places down because engine changes. I'm a bit worried because of this aspect.


ps: ioan, stop bashing the italians :p :

Me?! I like Italian cars, food, music and lifestyle!

[janneppi]

Yep, unless they start 10 places down because engine changes. I'm a bit worried because of this aspect.


I thought they can change engines as they please if they retire?

[pino]

Me?! I like Italian cars, food, music and lifestyle!

I was talking about Ferrari leaders, be patient...Rom wasn't builded in one day ;)

[ioan]

I was talking about Ferrari leaders, be patient...Rom wasn't builded in one day ;)

the problem is that Rome already stands but the Mayor is not doing his job seriously enough! ;)

[WSRfan82]

i do think ferrari will bounce back from this as it just one race but i think with
a new man in charge will take sometime getting used to

kimi well...starting 16 he did panic though the race tryed to hard...why do you think he made so many mistakes

Massa well...the crash with DC was a racing incident in my view neither driver wanted to give way and DC going off was consequences

[pino]

the problem is that Rome already stands but the Mayor is not doing his job seriously enough! ;)

How can you say that just after one race ? :s

[pino]

http://english.gazzetta.it/Motor_sports/Primo_Piano/2008/03_Marzo/16/parlatofereng.shtml

ps: Yes finally gazzetta.it has an english version now :up:

[ioan]

How can you say that just after one race ? :s

That was a rare catastrophe. I hope it won't be repeated this season.

[BDunnell]

I think that Todt might be in Sepang next week end, just to make sure they don't screw it twice in a row.

But then what will happen at the race after that, and the one after that? Todt can't be there all the time. The new people need time to bed in on race weekends, and making mistakes is part of this. How else will they (hopefully) learn?

[pino]

How else will they (hopefully) learn?

They could always hire ioan and learn from him :p :

[Daniel]

I think that Ferrari just had a bad day, I am sure they will get their revange already in Malaysia :D

No no Pino. You've got it all wrong. From only one race we can easily see that the Ferrari's will never win a race again, DC will ALWAYS crash out, Bourdais will always have engine trouble.

Apparently you can judge the whole season by what happens in Australia.

[pino]

No no Pino. You've got it all wrong. From only one race we can easily see that the Ferrari's will never win a race again, DC will ALWAYS crash out, Bourdais will always have engine trouble.

Apparently you can judge the whole season by what happens in Australia.

...and Jarno's car will broke in every single race ? :p :

[Daniel]

...and Jarno's car will broke in every single race ? :p :

That or he will put it off the road or into another car DC style :D

[SGWilko]

I think that Todt might be in Sepang next week end, just to make sure they don't screw it twice in a row.

That will only serve to distabilise the team, undermining/questioning their abilities, won't it?

[Daniel]

But then what will happen at the race after that, and the one after that? Todt can't be there all the time. The new people need time to bed in on race weekends, and making mistakes is part of this. How else will they (hopefully) learn?
I don't really see what the big deal is here. Ferrari had a component failure in Kimi's car in practice, Massa and DC had their racing incident and Kimi took the car off road which may have had something to do with the engine failure. The only bad decision for them was not to bring Kimi in during the SC period. McLaren made dumb decisions last year also. Were the same people who are making a mountain out of a molehill now pointing out the big holes in McLaren's strategy?

I personally think the F1 teams should fire these people who are being paid lots to work race strategies out and hire some of the geniuses from the forum :) Funny how people on this forum can only point this stuff out AFTER it's happened. If they pointed these things out before the race or the season I'd be impressed.

I'm sure if Jean Todt was around Kimi wouldn't have had engine issues in qualifying, Massa would not have spun, DC would not have taken Massa out and Kimi's car would have made it around that corner and not gone through the kitty litter.

:dozey:

[Daniel]

That will only serve to distabilise the team, undermining/questioning their abilities, won't it?

These are professionals. Not a bunch of school kids.

[SGWilko]

Funny how people on this forum can only point this stuff out AFTER it's happened. If they pointed these things out before the race or the season I'd be impressed.

I wish I knew the lottery numbers before they were drawn........

How can you question three engine failures before the three engines that failed, failed, probably due to a failure? ;) :confused:

[SGWilko]

These are professionals. Not a bunch of school kids.

Are you sure?

[pino]

Are you sure?

Daniel is wrong, Montezemolo and Todt hired those people whilst walking in the city of Bologna in a sunny day...

[Daniel]

I wish I knew the lottery numbers before they were drawn........

How can you question three engine failures before the three engines that failed, failed, probably due to a failure? ;) :confused:

You can't. These things happen. I wouldn't be surprised if the Ferrari engines are fine next weekend. If you want to see a PROPER trend of engine failures you need to look at when Peugeot used to supply engines. Now those engines WERE unreliable.


Are you sure?

Not so sure now Pino has said what he said :laugh:

[BDunnell]

I don't really see what the big deal is here. Ferrari had a component failure in Kimi's car in practice, Massa and DC had their racing incident and Kimi took the car off road which may have had something to do with the engine failure. The only bad decision for them was not to bring Kimi in during the SC period. McLaren made dumb decisions last year also. Were the same people who are making a mountain out of a molehill now pointing out the big holes in McLaren's strategy?

I personally think the F1 teams should fire these people who are being paid lots to work race strategies out and hire some of the geniuses from the forum :) Funny how people on this forum can only point this stuff out AFTER it's happened. If they pointed these things out before the race or the season I'd be impressed.

I'm sure if Jean Todt was around Kimi wouldn't have had engine issues in qualifying, Massa would not have spun, DC would not have taken Massa out and Kimi's car would have made it around that corner and not gone through the kitty litter.

:dozey:

As I've said several times in various threads, I quite agree and think it's WAY too early to write Ferrari off on the basis of Melbourne, or even criticise them too much. My point is that when you've appointed a new team of people, no matter whether it's in F1 or another line of work, that team needs time to gel while doing the job. Bringing someone from the past back often isn't a good idea, and certainly not this soon.

[Daniel]

As I've said several times in various threads, I quite agree and think it's WAY too early to write Ferrari off on the basis of Melbourne, or even criticise them too much. My point is that when you've appointed a new team of people, no matter whether it's in F1 or another line of work, that team needs time to gel while doing the job. Bringing someone from the past back often isn't a good idea, and certainly not this soon.
But was it really a big team failure? The only one I spotted was not bringing Kimi in when they should have. Other than that it was square jawed Scot's, wayward engine parts and a somewhat wonky Finn that ruined their weekend.

[BDunnell]

But was it really a big team failure? The only one I spotted was not bringing Kimi in when they should have. Other than that it was square jawed Scot's, wayward engine parts and a somewhat wonky Finn that ruined their weekend.

No, it wasn't. That's one reason why I think any such action as bringing Todt back, even for one race weekend, is a complete over-reaction. In truth, I don't think it will happen.

[ioan]

That will only serve to distabilise the team, undermining/questioning their abilities, won't it?

Yeah sure! And if Hakkinen showed up in the McLaren pits next week end than they would also be destabilized. :rolleyes:

Honestly, when one needs help than he/she should ask for it and learn from it instead of feeling "destabilized"!

One a side note I think you read to much tabloids over there. How else can you think that help can destabilize???

[ioan]

No, it wasn't. That's one reason why I think any such action as bringing Todt back, even for one race weekend, is a complete over-reaction. In truth, I don't think it will happen.

There was another mistake at the very beginning. They brought Massa in twice, once for changing the nose and once more for refueling, when it could have been done the first time around.

[Daniel]

Yeah sure! And if Hakkinen showed up in the McLaren pits next week end than they would also be destabilized. :rolleyes:

Honestly, when one needs help than he/she should ask for it and learn from it instead of feeling "destabilized"!

One a side note I think you read to much tabloids over there. How else can you think that help can destabilize???
Wrong. Hakkinen was in the silver car. If a figure from the past comes into the silver car garage place it's called support. But if it's a red car it's destabilisation!!111111111111111111111111111111111 11111

[BDunnell]

Yeah sure! And if Hakkinen showed up in the McLaren pits next week end than they would also be destabilized. :rolleyes:

That's rather different to the previous team boss showing up. If Hakkinen tried to show the two McLaren drivers how to drive, that would surely be unwelcome.



Honestly, when one needs help than he/she should ask for it and learn from it instead of feeling "destabilized"!

By all means do it if things keep going wrong further down the line, but not yet. To do anything like this at this early stage would not be a big vote of confidence in the current set-up.



One a side note I think you read to much tabloids over there. How else can you think that help can destabilize???

Many business/management experts would surely say exactly the same thing.

[BDunnell]

There was another mistake at the very beginning. They brought Massa in twice, once for changing the nose and once more for refueling, when it could have been done the first time around.

Wasn't the safety car out at that point, thereby preventing refuelling?

[ioan]

Wasn't the safety car out at that point, thereby preventing refuelling?

You mean that id the SC is out they can't refuel, but they can still change a broken nose cone?
If that's right than the rules are even stupider than I thought they are. I thought that the pit road is either closed or open, not that it's open for certain activities but not for others. These rules are so stupid it's difficult to imagine how did they come up with them.

[aryan]

It was the heat!!

You might be sarcastic, but I actually think you are right. Ferrari wasn't good last year at very hot GPs, and the story continues this year.

I think they still have the fastest car out there, though McLaren is very close.

Tactics were very wrong this race... makes you wonder about the new personnel in charge...

I still think they have a very high chance of winning the WCC if they can minimise reliability issues.

[DonJippo]

You mean that id the SC is out they can't refuel, but they can still change a broken nose cone?
If that's right than the rules are even stupider than I thought they are. I thought that the pit road is either closed or open, not that it's open for certain activities but not for others. These rules are so stupid it's difficult to imagine how did they come up with them.

Maybe if you read this one you get better picture of the rule

http://www.motorsportforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=125551

[DonJippo]

You might be sarcastic, but I actually think you are right. Ferrari wasn't good last year at very hot GPs, and the story continues this year.

Ferrari had seven full GP simulations during the winter test season, in three of them they had problems so they have had reliability issues even before OZ GP. Some of these problems are related to heat so would not be a surprise to see similar engine or other component failures due to high temperature in coming GPs in Malaysia and Bahrain as they don't have time to test and find a solution for the problem(s).

[SGWilko]

Ferrari had seven full GP simulations during the winter test season, in three of them they had problems so they have had reliability issues even before OZ GP. Some of these problems are related to heat so would not be a surprise to see similar engine or other component failures due to high temperature in coming GPs in Malaysia and Bahrain as they don't have time to test and find a solution for the problem(s).

remember all the problems Red Bull had cooling the Ferrari motors......

.....before Newey insisted they switch to Renault......?

What does Adrian know about the Ferrari motor that Ferrari don't?

[N. Jones]

People - it's only one race! I believe something like this happened last year and look how that turned out....

[ioan]

remember all the problems Red Bull had cooling the Ferrari motors......

.....before Newey insisted they switch to Renault......?

What does Adrian know about the Ferrari motor that Ferrari don't?

It's not like RedBull is beating STR either! :p :

[SGWilko]

People - it's only one race! I believe something like this happened last year and look how that turned out....

'06 was a bad start for Ferrari, with I think some piston issues, but they managed to take the championship to the wire that year, so all is not lost....

[BDunnell]

You mean that id the SC is out they can't refuel, but they can still change a broken nose cone?
If that's right than the rules are even stupider than I thought they are. I thought that the pit road is either closed or open, not that it's open for certain activities but not for others. These rules are so stupid it's difficult to imagine how did they come up with them.

That is exactly the case, unless my understanding of this rule is totally wrong.

It is indeed utterly stupid.

EDIT — I ought to clarify that, of course, refuelling CAN take place under the safety car but only after the race director has permitted it. When Massa came into the pits for the first time after his first corner accident, refuelling wasn't permitted but a repair was. Then, as far as I understand it, permission for cars to come in and refuel was given, so he came back in. Someone please correct this if it's wrong, but I don't think it was a Ferrari error.

[BDunnell]

What does Adrian know about the Ferrari motor that Ferrari don't?

Maybe Ferrari should ask Mike Coughlan and Nigel Stepney to find out! ;)

[Hawkmoon]

That is exactly the case, unless my understanding of this rule is totally wrong.

It is indeed utterly stupid.

EDIT — I ought to clarify that, of course, refuelling CAN take place under the safety car but only after the race director has permitted it. When Massa came into the pits for the first time after his first corner accident, refuelling wasn't permitted but a repair was. Then, as far as I understand it, permission for cars to come in and refuel was given, so he came back in. Someone please correct this if it's wrong, but I don't think it was a Ferrari error.

As far as I know you're right. It's the reason that Barrichello got the stop-go penalty. He had no choice but to refuel under the safety car as he would have run out of fuel. Honda chose to take the penalty instead of the DNF. It turned out to be academic as Rubens ran the red and got DQ'ed.

I can't see why they have banned refuelling under the safety car. I think it has something to do with not wanting the pits flooded with cars when the SC is called but what's the big deal with that?

As for Ferrari, three things have been questioned:

1. Strategy - On the face of it I'd say that they should have stopped Raikkonen under the SC but I think the stupid SC rules played a part in this one. Without being able to refuel straight away maybe the timing wasn't right? They certainly got the 1 stop strategy for Kimi right and made the correct call on switching Massa to an effective 1 stopper after his spin. The car is way easier on it's tyres than anything else out there and they took advantage of it.

2. Reliabilty - Definite problem here. Three of the six Ferrari engined cars DNF'd due to engine problems, including the two works cars. The other 3 retired due to accidents so we don't know how they would have fared. Hopefully it's something ancilliary to the engine and not a fundamental flaw with the unit.

3. Drivers - This area is easily fixed. The drivers simply have to stop throwing the car at the scenery. Errors are forgivable but making the same mistake twice? Not so much, Mr Raikkonen, not so much.

I know it's hard to tell from the way the race played out but the F2008 doesn't appear to be as quick as the MP4-23. The McLarens were over 0.4 seconds quicker on fastest race lap than Raikkonen and even further ahead of Massa. That's a concern. Traffic played a part and the Ferraris were on differeing strategies to the McLarens but it's something I'll be keeping a close eye on in Malaysia.

The overwhelming positive from the weekend was the way the F2008 used it's tyres. From memory the Ferraris were the only cars to start the race on the softs and they used them for more than half distance. Compare that to everybody else who went for two stints on the hards and a short final stint on the softs. This could be a huge advantage for the Reds as the season progresses.

[SGWilko]

The overwhelming positive from the weekend was the way the F2008 used it's tyres. From memory the Ferraris were the only cars to start the race on the softs and they used them for more than half distance. Compare that to everybody else who went for two stints on the hards and a short final stint on the softs. This could be a huge advantage for the Reds as the season progresses.

Which is as it was last year. Compared to the Ferrari in '07, the McLaren ate its rears.

Now, they will have worked on this for '08. Clearly, they can get the heat in tyres for qually, which Ferrari still seem to have a big problem with.

If their drivers are having issues keeping on the road when coming from behind, they really might struggle if other teams can show better qually performance.

Ferrari will be further hindered if they have to run lighter to make up the defecit.

One thing I noticed from Oz, was that Massa was using his fronts much quicker than Kimi, so they might have put the weight too far forward this year.....

[ioan]

Which is as it was last year. Compared to the Ferrari in '07, the McLaren ate its rears.

That was only on Lewis' car.



One thing I noticed from Oz, was that Massa was using his fronts much quicker than Kimi, so they might have put the weight too far forward this year.....

It didn't look like that to me.
They both had the left front tire with more wear than the right one, but other than that it was pretty much the same.
And given that they went half +, of the race on the softer tires compared to the McCheats using them only for the last stint for not even half as many laps, I would say that the Ferrari have the bets balanced cars and this will be obvious as soon as they stop stuffing things up like kids.

[Daniel]

Which is as it was last year. Compared to the Ferrari in '07, the McLaren ate its rears.

Now, they will have worked on this for '08. Clearly, they can get the heat in tyres for qually, which Ferrari still seem to have a big problem with.

If their drivers are having issues keeping on the road when coming from behind, they really might struggle if other teams can show better qually performance.

Ferrari will be further hindered if they have to run lighter to make up the defecit.

One thing I noticed from Oz, was that Massa was using his fronts much quicker than Kimi, so they might have put the weight too far forward this year.....

Talk about reading too much into ONE race.....

[SGWilko]

That was only on Lewis' car.



It didn't look like that to me.
They both had the left front tire with more wear than the right one, but other than that it was pretty much the same.
And given that they went half +, of the race on the softer tires compared to the McCheats using them only for the last stint for not even half as many laps, I would say that the Ferrari have the bets balanced cars and this will be obvious as soon as they stop stuffing things up like kids.

Well, Massa (Kimi's Brother?) took on new tyres, and the white line on the left front was dissapearing faster on Massa's than Kimi's. It was just an observation.

[SGWilko]

Talk about reading too much into ONE race.....

We,ve only had one race, and I'm only commenting on what impressions I took from that race.

Sorry about that, have I caused offence?

[Daniel]

We,ve only had one race, and I'm only commenting on what impressions I took from that race.

Sorry about that, have I caused offence?

Of course not. I just don't see the point in drawing sweeping conclusions from what is only one race.

Perhaps in 2 or 3 races we can get an idea of form but it's simply to early to say at the moment. If you want to keep on making these sweeping statements I don't have a problem but don't expect me to not point out that we've only had one race so far and that you shouldn't read into it too much.

[SGWilko]

Of course not. I just don't see the point in drawing sweeping conclusions from what is only one race.

Perhaps in 2 or 3 races we can get an idea of form but it's simply to early to say at the moment. If you want to keep on making these sweeping statements I don't have a problem but don't expect me to not point out that we've only had one race so far and that you shouldn't read into it too much.

Okey dokey, fair point. :up:

[DonJippo]

Of course not. I just don't see the point in drawing sweeping conclusions from what is only one race.

What SGWilko is writing is exactly the same what Stefano Domenicali said after OZ. They are struggling to get the tyres working in qualifying, a problem they have had a long time now.

[Daniel]

What SGWilko is writing is exactly the same what Stefano Domenicali said after OZ. They are struggling to get the tyres working in qualifying, a problem they have had a long time now.
Thing is as Ioan pointed out during the race Kimi went for quite a while with their soft tyres without much issue.

[ioan]

Well, Massahttp://forums.motorsport.com/forum ... /clear.gif (Massahttp://forums.motorsport.com/forums/images/aria/misc/clear.gif)
http://forums.motorsport.com/forums/images/aria/misc/clear.gif (Kimi's Brother?) took on new tyres, and the white line on the left front was dissapearing faster on Massa's than Kimi's. It was just an observation.

You're right he took on new tires on at the end of lap 1, what a huge difference. care to tell us how did you measure the speed at which the white line was disappearing on their tires? Especially that we didn't get to see them each and every lap.

PS: Did you consider getting a job with ITV, you could be their tire degradation speed specialist! :D

[DonJippo]

Thing is as Ioan pointed out during the race Kimi went for quite a while with their soft tyres without much issue.

Yes that is true but the issue is that they can't get their tyres work for qualifying so they won't get to the front row and that is bad as passing is not too easy in current F1.

[Daniel]

Yes that is true but the issue is that they can't get their tyres work for qualifying so they won't get to the front row and that is bad as passing is not too easy in current F1.

True. But these days strategy plays a big part. Kimi was on for a good result from a bad grid position if not get his 2 mistakes and the eventual engine failure. Will see what happens in Malaysia next week :D

[ioan]

True. But these days strategy plays a big part. Kimi was on for a good result from a bad grid position if not get his 2 mistakes and the eventual engine failure. Will see what happens in Malaysia next week :D

Yep, at the end of the SC period he could have still won the race, but now we know it wouldn't have happened anyway.

[SGWilko]

You're right he took on new tires on at the end of lap 1, what a huge difference. care to tell us how did you measure the speed at which the white line was disappearing on their tires? Especially that we didn't get to see them each and every lap.

PS: Did you consider getting a job with ITV, you could be their tire degradation speed specialist! :D

Ioan, it is really quite simple, no smoke or mirrors required surprisingly...

Just compare the onboard shots from Kimi's car with Massa's when they show them on the same lap.

You don't need to see them on every lap, just now and again at similar times to make a reasonable visual judgement.

As for ITV, they did ask, but they were not offereing private healthcare so I declined the offer. :dozey:

[DonJippo]

Yep, at the end of the SC period he could have still won the race, but now we know it wouldn't have happened anyway.

Kimi's win was gone the moment he got stucked behind Rubens for 19 laps and Heikki got if front of Kimi after his first pitstop. But like you say all this does not really matter as the engine woud have broke anyway.

[ioan]

Kimi's win was gone the moment he got stucked behind Rubens for 19 laps and Heikki got if front of Kimi after his first pitstop. But like you say all this does not really matter as the engine woud have broke anyway.

He had the luck to be up there with LH and HK when they had 1 pit stop to do each. So it was possible to fight for the win and he was already on the podium.
What happened after that is well known to all of us.
Let's hope all the parts stay together for the next GP.

[Big Ben]

I don't know.

[SGWilko]

Let's hope all the parts stay together for the next GP.

I think Massa's been looking in his chrystal ball again....


"We will put new engines in the car and for sure we can go to the end of two races now," he said. "It wasn't the temperature that affected our engines, it was something else which we need to discover very quickly.

But he is saying that before any analysis has been made on the units. He has a lot of faith does that boy.

[DonJippo]

But he is saying that before any analysis has been made on the units.

It is said to be something related to valves and they both had the same failure.

[SGWilko]

It is said to be something related to valves and they both had the same failure.

Thanks for the info. Do you have a source for that info at all, or is the valve thing just a hunch at this time?

[mstillhere]

Yes that is true but the issue is that they can't get their tyres work for qualifying so they won't get to the front row

I don't know about that. Massa did say that it did not get pole position due to traffic on the track and Kimi had his issues with the e-pump. So, before coming out with so definite statements let's see what happens for a couple of races. How can anyone know what's the situation after just ONE race? Who saw the real Ferrari? NOBODY. So, let us be a little patient and only time will tell the reality of things. You guys know better than that.......

[Hawkmoon]

All of the bad things from Melbourne are easily correctable. Pitstop strategy, driver errors and even technical failures can all be fixed.

The worrying question, one that I believe was raised in Melbourne but will be answered in Malaysia, is just how fast is the car compared to the McLaren? I know there were extenuating circumstances but Hamilton had an easy run and set a fastest lap 0.4+ better than Raikkonen. Kovalainen was a shade faster than that. Is there more speed in that McLaren? How much faster can they go if there is a Ferrari chasing them?

[jedii]

dont anyone think that they both just nackered there engines driving in traffic in very high heat and having to charge like hell if they both had started near the front and had had clear runs i think they would of both finished and won but alas they did not....

[DonJippo]

I don't know about that. Massa did say that it did not get pole position due to traffic on the track and Kimi had his issues with the e-pump. So, before coming out with so definite statements let's see what happens for a couple of races. How can anyone know what's the situation after just ONE race? Who saw the real Ferrari? NOBODY. So, let us be a little patient and only time will tell the reality of things. You guys know better than that.......

It was Stefano Domenicali who said what I wrote...

[DonJippo]

Thanks for the info. Do you have a source for that info at all, or is the valve thing just a hunch at this time?

Article in a Finnish magazine, http://www.iltasanomat.fi/urheilu/t/formula1/1505712 only in finnish though

[F1boat]

Kimi's win was gone the moment he got stucked behind Rubens for 19 laps and Heikki got if front of Kimi after his first pitstop. But like you say all this does not really matter as the engine woud have broke anyway.

You sure about the last one? Rallycross might have "helped" the engine trouble.

[pino]

It was Stefano Domenicali who said what I wrote...

Sorry but I didn't read/hear a single words from Domenicali about that... it must be the finnish fantasy :p :

[DonJippo]

Sorry but I didn't read/hear a single words from Domenicali about that... it must be the finnish fantasy :p :

You should stop reading that nonsence italian media and start using more reliable news sources ;) ... here is a link to the topic anyway, in finnish but it says the same what I wrote

http://www.mtv3.fi/urheilu/f1/uutiset.shtml/arkistot/f1/2008/03/624322

[pino]

You should stop reading that nonsence italian media and start using more reliable news sources ;) ... here is a link to the topic anyway, in finnish but it says the same what I wrote

http://www.mtv3.fi/urheilu/f1/uutiset.shtml/arkistot/f1/2008/03/624322

Do you mind to translate that article in english or italian ? ;)

[Daniel]

Do you mind to translate that article in english or italian ? ;)
Says something about Galli moving to F1 :p

[Shalafi]

Do you mind to translate that article in english or italian ? ;)

Free translation:

- Olemme jatkuvasti kärsineet tästä ongelmasta. Meidän täytyy keksiä, kuinka pystymme parantamaan aika-ajoamme, Domenicali linjasi.

"We have constantly suffer from this problem. We have to figure out how to improve our qualifying", said Domenicali.

Australian GP:n aika-ajossa paremmin sijoittunut Ferrari-kuski Felipe Massa ajoi vasta neljänteen ruutuun. Ferrarin kisavauhti oli paremmin kohdallaan.

"In qualifying Massa was only fourth. Ferraris racepace was much better, however."

- Aika-ajo on ratkaisevan tärkeä, koska takaa aloittaessa menettää niin paljon. Näimme kuinka Kimi Räikkönen oli kisassa monta kierrosta Rubens Barrichellon perässä, mutta teki vapaalle radalle päästessään suorituskyvyn ja tasaisuuden suhteen täydellisiä aikoja, Domenicali totesi.

"Qualifying is most important, because when starting from behind you lose so much time. We saw that in the race Kimi was driving behind Barrichello many laps, but when got past him, he drove perfectly consistant and fast laps that showed our true speed."

[pino]

Thanks Shalafi :up:


What SGWilko is writing is exactly the same what Stefano Domenicali said after OZ. They are struggling to get the tyres working in qualifying, a problem they have had a long time now.

I can't find that in the translated article...can you help ? :p :

[Daniel]

Thanks Shalafi :up:



I can't find that in the translated article...can you help ? :p :
I helped too! Where are my thanks? :D

[DonJippo]

I can't find that in the translated article...can you help ? :p :

For that you need to order this magazine http://www.veikkaaja.fi/

Take look of the top of the cover page from this week, says "Ferrari in panic, page 32" there is an article where it says Ferrari can't get their tires to work in qualifying. Hope this will help you enough...all in Finnish of course :p

http://kuvat2.iltasanomat.fi/iltasanomat/iDoc/1502628-veikkaajakansi2008-12_300px.jpg

[mstillhere]

Free translation:

- Olemme jatkuvasti kärsineet tästä ongelmasta. Meidän täytyy keksiä, kuinka pystymme parantamaan aika-ajoamme, Domenicali linjasi.

"We have constantly suffer from this problem. We have to figure out how to improve our qualifying", said Domenicali.

Australian GP:n aika-ajossa paremmin sijoittunut Ferrari-kuski Felipe Massa ajoi vasta neljänteen ruutuun. Ferrarin kisavauhti oli paremmin kohdallaan.

"In qualifying Massa was only fourth. Ferraris racepace was much better, however."

- Aika-ajo on ratkaisevan tärkeä, koska takaa aloittaessa menettää niin paljon. Näimme kuinka Kimi Räikkönen oli kisassa monta kierrosta Rubens Barrichellon perässä, mutta teki vapaalle radalle päästessään suorituskyvyn ja tasaisuuden suhteen täydellisiä aikoja, Domenicali totesi.

"Qualifying is most important, because when starting from behind you lose so much time. We saw that in the race Kimi was driving behind Barrichello many laps, but when got past him, he drove perfectly consistant and fast laps that showed our true speed."

I like the Finnish language. Like Italian it has lots of vowels and double consonats :)

[mstillhere]

MS says that Ferrari figured out what was the problem with their cars in Australia. He would not give too many explanations about the problem but he totally excluded the engine being part of the problem. He refers to something else (what it is is a mistery :( ) and still says that Ferrari still be the next world champion. The site is:
http://it.eurosport.yahoo.com/19032008/35/f1-schumi-ferrari-capito-guasto-scommett-0.html.
It is in Italian but I can translate it in Finnish if you want me to. :)

[DonJippo]

It is in Italian but I can translate it in Finnish if you want me to. :)

Yes please :up:


:D

[ioan]

MS says that Ferrari figured out what was the problem with their cars in Australia. He would not give too many explanations about the problem but he totally excluded the engine being part of the problem. He refers to something else (what it is is a mistery :( ) and still says that Ferrari still be the next world champion. The site is:
http://it.eurosport.yahoo.com/19032008/35/f1-schumi-ferrari-capito-guasto-scommett-0.html.
It is in Italian but I can translate it in Finnish if you want me to. :)

So basically it is something that had to do with the engine but not something within the engine itself! ECU anyone???

As for Felipe's first lap spin they put it down to the wrong gear being selected, but they don't know why it happened. Now this is strange, unless I did not understand it right. :D

[mstillhere]

So basically it is something that had to do with the engine but not something within the engine itself! ECU anyone???

As for Felipe's first lap spin they put it down to the wrong gear being selected, but they don't know why it happened. Now this is strange, unless I did not understand it right. :D

I don't know. In the article MS keeps his lips very tight. I have a feeling though (and he does not say that in so many words) it could also have been something causing overheating. But...again not too sure.

[DonJippo]

it could also have been something causing overheating. But...again not too sure.

That would be in line with the news there were about Ferrari's problems during winter testing.

[Ari]

1 / 18.

There's a long way to go fellas (and ladies!)

Ferrari will be fine.

[markabilly]

For that you need to order this magazine http://www.veikkaaja.fi/

Take look of the top of the cover page from this week, says "Ferrari in panic, page 32" there is an article where it says Ferrari can't get their tires to work in qualifying. Hope this will help you enough...all in Finnish of course :p



Tires don't work?
More evidence of sabotage using the ECU inflicted by those cheaters!!! :eek:

[mstillhere]

More from Italy about the level of engament at Ferrari's. Montezemolo today stating that in Sepang we'll see the real Ferrari.
(http://www.gazzetta.it/Motori/Formula1/Primo_Piano/2008/03_Marzo/19/montetodt.shtml)

I don't know why, but when he gets involved for some reason I see heads rolling left and right. It must no be pretty at Ferrari's right now.

[wmcot]

So basically it is something that had to do with the engine but not something within the engine itself! ECU anyone???

As for Felipe's first lap spin they put it down to the wrong gear being selected, but they don't know why it happened. Now this is strange, unless I did not understand it right. :D

According to F1-Live, they are looking into the ECU as the possible cause. perhaps not the ECU alone, but some bug in interfacing their system with the ECU. If it is found to be the ECU itself, you can kiss McLaren good-bye!

[janneppi]

Turun sanomat said that according to Autosprint ( ;) ) McLaren has benefitted somehow knowing where to put the ECU so that it doesn't get wonky if it's too hot.

It would sound plausable to assume that Ferrari ran into troubles with their ECU due to heat because it hasn't been as hot during testing.
That would mean they have screwed up it's cooling

The same Turun Sanomat article quoted Willy Rampf from BMW who apparently dismissed the idea that McLaren would have any major benefits with the location as cooling of the ECU is every teams own problem.

[pino]

It was a fuel-feed problem...

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/65898

[ioan]

They had these ECUs already for months, making it work with their interface should have been the very first problem on their list.

[Tazio]

It was a fuel-feed problem...

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/65898

Ferrari did not encounter engine problems in 10,000 km of pre-season testing, which counters speculation that the McLaren ECU can be blamed.

In an interview with Auto Motor und Sport, Schumacher did not reveal the actual cause of the Albert Park failures, but he insists that they had "nothing to do with the engines themselves".

"I don't want to go into any more detail," he added.

Rumours on Thursday at the scene of the Malaysian grand prix indicate that the problems were of an aerodynamic nature, triggered by the intense heat of the Melbourne circuit.
http://formula-1.updatesport.com/news/article/1206020169/formula_one/F1gossip/Engines-not-to-blame-for-failures/view.html
It sounds to me as though the ECU did over heat causing a furel feed problem! Is Ferrari allowed to make an ajustment in it's positioning? Remaping the engines sounnds less than optimum for performance. Changing air flow around said units is another option, and seems to be what the "aerodynamic" issue is!

[janneppi]

Well, Ferrari seemed have more problems after the new aero was introduced, did someone forgot to add a air vent for the ECU? :)

[DonJippo]

It sounds to me as though the ECU did over heat causing a furel feed problem! Is Ferrari allowed to make an ajustment in it's positioning?

Yes they can place it where they want.

[Tazio]

Yes they can place it where they want.

Thank you sir!

[DimitraF1]

IOAN they call massa in to change the front wing and they could not refuel the car because pits entrance was closed..only wing change they can do..nothing else

[mstillhere]

Well, Ferrari seemed have more problems after the new aero was introduced, did someone forgot to add a air vent for the ECU? :)
Hi Jannepi. Are you implying that Ferrari's engineers are SO STUPID that they "FORGOT" (?) to add the air vents for the ECU? Are you actually conviced that Ferrari's engineers are a bunch of week-end warriors who are clueless about how to put a winning car together? I seriously don't think you do, since you are fully aware of Ferrari's numerous WORLD'S acheivements. Actually I do seem to remember, a couple of years ago, a McLaren that literally was loosing pieces on the track like I don't know... its rear mirrors, for example (not to mention their fragile engines). Now, I don't think it takes an engineer to figure out how to glue a couple of rear mirrors to the car's chassis. And that speaks valumes about who is the best professional on the track.
Furthermore, I am totally sure that at this time McLaren is having a definite advantage over the other teams since they are using THEIR own ecu (And I find it actually pretty normal- it actually makes sense). There is not going to be any trial and error period or any thing of that sort for McLaren and yes they PERFECTLY know where to put those air vents. No question about that.
PS Mercedes engines became reliable only because of the engine freeze imposed by the FIA. Without that they would still be working on their engines

[Daniel]

Sounds to me like people here think they know more than they actually do :p If the ECU overheated it would **** itself and they would describe it as an ECU failure and I'm sure Ferrari would LOVE to say that McLaren's ECU is crap.

[Tazio]

I'm sure Ferrari would LOVE to say that McLaren's ECU is crap.That is not necessarily true! I think the resolution to whatever problem Ferrari had will be shrouded in as much secrecy as possible. Why would they love to admit that their overall aerodynamics, including airflow over electronic components was erroneous!
If the failure were related to the ECU overheating, they would be admitting they didn't understand something about the properties of the units heat tolerances. Ferrari has their method of balancing aero with intake, and cooling. I don't suspect they want to give away any more information than is necessay! imo

[Daniel]

That is not necessarily true! I think the resolution to whatever problem Ferrari had will be shrouded in as much secrecy as possible. Why would they love to admit that their overall aerodynamics, including airflow over electronic components was erroneous!
If the failure were related to the ECU overheating, they would be admitting they didn't understand something about the properties of the units heat tolerances. Ferrari has their method of balancing aero with intake, and cooling. I don't suspect they want to give away any more information than is necessay! imo
Wait. I've got a better idea! It's their flux capacitor location! It was throwing too much flux through the ECU and cooked it. Keep on grasping at straws though :D

[Tazio]

Wait. I've got a better idea! It's their flux capacitor location! It was throwing too much flux through the ECU and cooked it. Keep on grasping at straws though :D
What the Hell are you talking about smart @$$

[Daniel]

What the Hell are you talking about smart @$$
I'm saying that there is no evidence for what you're saying....

[Tazio]

I'm saying that there is no evidence for what you're saying....
That Ferrari wouldn't necessarily want to admit the specifics of having a cooling problem not directly associated with the engine?

[Daniel]

That Ferrari wouldn't necessarily want to admit the specifics of having a cooling problem not directly associated with the engine?
I wonder if last year's Ferrari had an ECU. I wonder if they had cooling for that. Hmmmmmmm I wonder :laugh:

[Tazio]

I wonder if last year's Ferrari had an ECU. I wonder if they had cooling for that. Hmmmmmmm I wonder :laugh: They did! Much more complex, larger. with longer cooling fins! Next question?

[janneppi]

Hi Jannepi. Are you implying that Ferrari's engineers are SO STUPID that they "FORGOT" (?) to add the air vents for the ECU? It's not completely unheard of an engineer to screw up on something that seems like a minor detail.


Are you actually conviced that Ferrari's engineers are a bunch of week-end warriors who are clueless about how to put a winning car together?
It was a speculation made in jest.

But read your post below again and try to remember what Ferrari were doing for the last 20 years before they got the right people, many of whom have now left.




I seriously don't think you do, since you are fully aware of Ferrari's numerous WORLD'S acheivements. Actually I do seem to remember, a couple of years ago, a McLaren that literally was loosing pieces on the track like I don't know... its rear mirrors, for example (not to mention their fragile engines). Now, I don't think it takes an engineer to figure out how to glue a couple of rear mirrors to the car's chassis. And that speaks valumes about who is the best professional on the track.
Furthermore, I am totally sure that at this time McLaren is having a definite advantage over the other teams since they are using THEIR own ecu (And I find it actually pretty normal- it actually makes sense). There is not going to be any trial and error period or any thing of that sort for McLaren and yes they PERFECTLY know where to put those air vents. No question about that.
PS Mercedes engines became reliable only because of the engine freeze imposed by the FIA. Without that they would still be working on their engines
Are you suggesting that Ferrari can't make something as simple as ECU cooling done, if mirror dropping McLaren has? ;)
Especially as Willy Shrampf from BMW said it should be no-brainer.

How many other powerplants blew up last weekend? ;)

[Dave B]

I'm saying that there is no evidence for what you're saying....
That's kinda an accepted rule for this forum :s

[Daniel]

They did! Much more complex, larger. with longer cooling fins! Next question?
Everything you've said in this thread is pure speculation :) You're basing your "argument" on rumours. A mistake if ever there was one.

P.S I still think it was the flux capacitor.

[Tazio]

Yes I'm speculating 1:
In either Inside Grand Prix or the Australian Grad Prix pre-race Steve Matchet
held up a Magnetti Morelli ECU used by a Ferrari engine last year. It was much larger the MES of 2008.
2: I think it would be safe to speculate that they require a different surface exposure for cooling!
3: Speculating that Ferrari got it wrong in extreme conditions is not a proposition that should be either discounted, or mocked.
I like a joke as much as the next guy does. Oh I get it!! Ha Ha!

[mstillhere]

It's not completely unheard of an engineer to screw up on something that seems like a minor detail.

It was a speculation made in jest.

But read your post below again and try to remember what Ferrari were doing for the last 20 years before they got the right people, many of whom have now left.

Are you suggesting that Ferrari can't make something as simple as ECU cooling done, if mirror dropping McLaren has? ;)
Especially as Willy Shrampf from BMW said it should be no-brainer.

How many other powerplants blew up last weekend? ;)

Now you are not comparing the ECU to a couple of rear mirrors, are you?

[Tazio]

By the way I didn't start the speculation!
http://formula-1.updatesport.com/news/article/1205927859/formula_one/F1headlines/Ferrari-blame-ECU/view.html
I'm simply discussing it. Since we have no other proof, speculation is the next logical
position to discuss it from.
I don't believe I was presenting an argument, just soliciting opinions!

[SGWilko]

By the way I didn't start the speculation!
http://formula-1.updatesport.com/news/article/1205927859/formula_one/F1headlines/Ferrari-blame-ECU/view.html
I'm simply discussing it. Since we have no other proof, speculation is the next logical
position to discuss it from.
I don't believe I was presenting an argument, just soliciting opinions!

Now now Tazio, discussion, on this forum? Are you 'avin' a laff???? ;)

The usual suspects on here don't know the meaning of the word.... :p :

[janneppi]

Now you are not comparing the ECU to a couple of rear mirrors, are you?
No, I'm comparing the cooling of an ECU to a couple of mirrors. ;)

Then again, there was an interesting article about this today in Turun sanomat which claimed the problem was simply engine overheating and breaking up, which in itself is normal in those conditions and teams can monitor the temps. Apparently for some reason the ECU in Ferrari's didn't give out a warning and drivers weren't able to turn down revs or fuel mixture to save the engine.

If that is the case, you have to ask have Ferrari tested that the warning system system works?

[Tazio]

Apparently for some reason the ECU in Ferrari's didn't give out a warning and drivers weren't able to turn down revs or fuel mixture to save the engine.

If that is the case, you have to ask have Ferrari tested that the warning system system works?
That's a provocative speculation ;)

[mstillhere]

Then again, there was an interesting article about this today in Turun sanomat which claimed the problem was simply engine overheating and breaking up, which in itself is normal in those conditions and teams can monitor the temps.
I have to disagree with the Turun sanomat article. Several people at Ferrari have said that the engine did not break down. It was an intake valve (I think that you are actually the one who posted this news) malfonctioning. Things get blurry once we start asking how come. This question has been left unswered. But evryone, MS, Kimi, Massa and so are claiming that Ferrari found out what the problem was and Monty said that this Sunday we will see what Ferrari can really do. LH seems to on the look out.
And even if things are not going well this time either, as we all know this is a sport where it's over only when it's over, as we all learned (and that includes LH and RD) just a couple of months ago

[wmcot]

According to Autosport.com Ferrari have cleared the ECU as the culprit and they supposedly know the cause. We'll see shortly.

[DonJippo]

It was an intake valve malfonctioning. Things get blurry once we start asking how come.

Malfunction due to overheating of the engine, which can be prevented with a decent cooling but also by adjusting air-fuel mixture during the race, it can be done by the driver when needed. What did happen in Melbourne was that team never got a warning of overheating engine because their systems do not function same way with the new ECU as with the old one. Therefore they never instructed drivers to change the mixture and the engines finally broke done.

[mstillhere]

Malfunction due to overheating of the engine, which can be prevented with a decent cooling but also by adjusting air-fuel mixture during the race, it can be done by the driver when needed. What did happen in Melbourne was that team never got a warning of overheating engine because their systems do not function same way with the new ECU as with the old one. Therefore they never instructed drivers to change the mixture and the engines finally broke done.

As good as it sounds that's what you or your newspaper are saying. And as far as Ferrari ufficial info are concerned, I have not seen such detailed information coming from their PR's office. And since you don't work for them I have to take what you are saying with due precaution. Also, I think you are still trying to say that Ferrari's engineeres don't know what they are doing. However, since they won the world chmpionship, and according to you they don't know what they are doing, their victory makes those who lost (including McLaren) look even worse. Eh, eh,eh...

[janneppi]

As good as it sounds that's what you or your newspaper are saying. And as far as Ferrari official info are concerned, I have not seen such detailed information coming from their PR's office.
It is that, newspaper speculation, to be taken with a grain of salt, just like the pr you get from teams themselves, if anything teams have more to gain by not telling the truth. Unless the car is missing a wheel or has left hundreds of meters long trail of engine parts and oil behind it, it's hard to know why a car breaks down.
[/QUOTE]

[Tazio]

OK back on topic.
If this is a clean race between Ferrari and McLaren up front. And,
if McLaren can hold off Ferrari I would say they really have the measure
of the boys from Marrenello. Both Mclarens are on their second race,
after the torture of Oz'
Both Ferrari on new engines, and should be able to push harder!

[ShiftingGears]

I'm going out on a limb and saying that McLaren will be the constructors champions this year.

[Tazio]

I'm going out on a limb and saying that McLaren will be the constructors champions this year.
Well if Ferrari doesn't stop doing stupid **** like this
http://en.f1-live.com/f1/en/headlines/news/detail/080321104019.shtml
it won't even be a fight!

[Daniel]

Well if Ferrari doesn't stop doing stupid **** like this
http://en.f1-live.com/f1/en/headlines/news/detail/080321104019.shtml
it won't even be a fight!
Would you prefer Ferrari to be going "OMFG we're all going to die!!!!!!!1111111" :confused:

[Tazio]

Would you prefer Ferrari to be going "OMFG we're all going to die!!!!!!!1111111" :confused:
What is your ****ing problem!
If you don't think it's an issue than say so.

[ioan]

IOAN they call massa in to change the front wing and they could not refuel the car because pits entrance was closed..only wing change they can do..nothing else

You're right.
I was not aware of this part of the story.

[ioan]

Well if Ferrari doesn't stop doing stupid **** like this
http://en.f1-live.com/f1/en/headlines/news/detail/080321104019.shtml
it won't even be a fight!

They need comunication lines between the garage and the pit wall?! And when these do not function they are to lazy to walk 10 meters and speak to each other???

This is starting to look like Ronspeak for "we were so dumb that we missed to tell him that he didn't have enough fuel for one more lap".

[DonJippo]

Also, I think you are still trying to say that Ferrari's engineeres don't know what they are doing. However, since they won the world chmpionship, and according to you they don't know what they are doing, their victory makes those who lost (including McLaren) look even worse. Eh, eh,eh...

They never had such weather conditions during winter tests so it's very much possible that this functionality was not tested prior Melbourne in their GP simulations. Does this then mean Ferrari's engineer are not as good as other's, I don't know nor have I opinions of that matter where as for you it seems to be a sensitive case for some reason?

[mstillhere]

They never had such weather conditions during winter tests so it's very much possible that this functionality was not tested prior Melbourne in their GP simulations. Does this then mean Ferrari's engineer are not as good as other's?

That's not what I gathered from your previous statements. I guess missread them.

[mstillhere]

According to Autosport.com Ferrari have cleared the ECU as the culprit and they supposedly know the cause. We'll see shortly.

Check this out. It says just the oppposite.
http://formula-1.updatesport.com/news/article/1205927859/formula_one/F1headlines/Ferrari-blame-ECU/view.html

Do you know what's funny? When you read these articles, when it comes down to who said what, where, how and so on, they are so vague. That's why I don't know who or what to believe anymore.

[wmcot]

Check this out. It says just the oppposite.
http://formula-1.updatesport.com/news/article/1205927859/formula_one/F1headlines/Ferrari-blame-ECU/view.html

Do you know what's funny? When you read these articles, when it comes down to who said what, where, how and so on, they are so vague. That's why I don't know who or what to believe anymore.

That was the first article I saw and what I get out of it is that Ferrari basically aren't able to interface their sensors with the standard ECU yet. As pointed out before, they did not receive a warning from the ECU which would have changed fuel mixtures to run cooler. I don't know whether this is not built into the ECU or Ferrari are not able to use that feature from the ECU.

I doubt we'll get a straight answer either way...