Will anyone in Indycar ever make it to F1 now???

[jimispeed]

Not until the cars are built way more for performance, and quickness!!

And that won't make Indycar look very good in those worldly road racing enthusiasts eyes.....

The cars need to be a handful to drive.......

Are they really going to have power assisted steering?? If so.....Hideous!!

My opinion of course.....

I still have hope that everything turns out the way open wheel was meant to be!!

[BenRoethig]

I honestly don't care. F1 isn't the aim of american open wheel racing. If someone wants to go on the F1 track, there are plenty of feeder series for that. The days being hijacked by foreign road racers and fans are over.

[dlbernie]

Why should anyone care whether the guys and gals of the IRL make it to F1. Only two or three teams per year even matter in Formula One. The racing except for maybe a couple of cars - is not even competitive. And let's not even get into the issue of "team orders". I'm tired of all the IRL bashing. Let's see what happens with the IRL now with unification. No one cares whether NASCAR drivers cross the pond. Let's see whether IndyCar can reestablish its own image. Let F1 do what they do.

[ChicagocrewIRL]

I honestly don't care. F1 isn't the aim of american open wheel racing. If someone wants to go on the F1 track, there are plenty of feeder series for that. The days being hijacked by foreign road racers and fans are over.

Agreed..... the real question is... will anyone in F1 ever make it to IndyCar now that they have to be proficient oval racers as well? Mansell, Fittipaldi and Piquet ? We will never see drivers in F1 with the prowess to tackle AOWR again. :)

[F1boat]

I honestly don't care. F1 isn't the aim of american open wheel racing. If someone wants to go on the F1 track, there are plenty of feeder series for that. The days being hijacked by foreign road racers and fans are over.

I second that. If you want F1 feeder series, watch GP 2. IndyCar is different and should be different.

[BenRoethig]

I don't know. The breed of F1 has changed in the last 20 years and not for the better. What you basically have now is nobility on four wheels. They won't touch a car unless everything is perfectly to their liking.

[F1boat]

With the exception of JPM and Kimi. Kimi, I think, drove even snowmobiles.

[ShiftingGears]

With the exception of JPM and Kimi. Kimi, I think, drove even snowmobiles.

And he won :D

[ShiftingGears]

Not until the cars are built way more for performance, and quickness!!

And that won't make Indycar look very good in those worldly road racing enthusiasts eyes.....

The cars need to be a handful to drive.......

Are they really going to have power assisted steering?? If so.....Hideous!!

My opinion of course.....

I still have hope that everything turns out the way open wheel was meant to be!!

Maybe?!

F1 isn't the aim. The aim of AOWR is to make ITSELF the aim for aspiring drivers from around the world.

[indycool]

I think everyone has properly dismissed the post of the thread starter. And with many good reasons. I agree with all of them. The idea that everyone in motorsports wants to be an F1 driver is a pre-supposed fact not in evidence. Just isn't true to start with and I don't know why I'm supposed to care to end with.

[994ever]

I honestly don't care. F1 isn't the aim of american open wheel racing.

Right. That's NASCAR now.

[ChicagocrewIRL]

Right. That's NASCAR now.


It's only NASCAR if you want the most money, not if you want to participate in the most challenging form of auto racing.

[994ever]

It's only NASCAR if you want the most money, not if you want to participate in the most challenging form of auto racing.

That's the funniest joke I've heard in a while!

Sincerely,

Juan Pablo Montoya

[BenRoethig]

Maybe?!

F1 isn't the aim. The aim of AOWR is to make ITSELF the aim for aspiring drivers from around the world.

Exactly.


Right. That's NASCAR now.

Only because you couldn't make a living in the open wheel ranks because of the strike stupidity. Unfortunately its gotten so bad that you make more money running in the back or even missing cup races than you did winning an open wheel race other than the Indy 500. Montoya is in cup because he wants the challenge. The rest are there pretty reluctantly.

[ChicagocrewIRL]

That's the funniest joke I've heard in a while!

Sincerely,

Juan Pablo Montoya

right and if you think JPM did it for the prestige and challenge of racing heavy coupes and sedans around high banked ovals you're really farther off the cliff than you realize . $$$$$$$

it's the difference between fighter jets and cargo/passenger planes... which one do all the pilots in WANT to fly ??? and which ones do they NEED to fly ???

one gives the thrills, the other pays the bills $$$$$$$$$$$$$$

[994ever]

right and if you think JPM did it for the prestige and challenge of racing heavy coupes and sedans around high banked ovals you're really farther off the cliff than you realize . $$$$$$$

it's the difference between fighter jets and cargo/passenger planes... which one do all the pilots in WANT to fly ??? and which ones do they NEED to fly ???

Look, I admire your loyalty to Indycar, but your position that it is the most challenging racing in the world defies logic, experience, and the comments of many, many drivers. I don't understand how anyone who has watched as many IRL races as you presumably have, and all those countless cockpit shots of endless 100% throttle and minimal steering input could think that, quite frankly.

Sure they might go to NASCAR for money, but that doesn't automatically mean that money is the only redeeming quality of it. You're probably the kind of person who thinks that a band or recording artist automatically sucks if they have a major record deal.

[Marbles]

If Bourdais caught F1's eye from the somewhat talent thin fields of CCWS then I think AOW could have drivers in F1 in the near future and I think we should care. F1 is BIG and if our drivers can drive there then we'll attract fans from the second most watched sport in the WORLD and more importantly cash in the form of sponsors!

I've never thought of AOW as a feeder series and I don't believe, as many F1 snobs do, that the 22 best drivers in the world are located in there. In the early to mid-nineties I thought half of each field (F1, CART) would have given you the most talented open wheelers around. As the popularity of CART grew it was close to the point of being considered an equal alternative to F1! The idea of the next Clarke or Fangio choosing to drive down Lakeshore Blvd. instead of Eau Rouge does matter to me. We may have some of the best drivers over here but I want them all. :)

As for drivers who are at the top of their game, whether it be IMSA or ICS or NASCAR and how they regard F1. Let's just say this. If Ferrari rang them up and said, "We're interest in you. We'll be doing some testing in Monza next week. Would you like to drive our car?" I don't think too many folks would turn them down.

[Jag_Warrior]

Not until the cars are built way more for performance, and quickness!!

And that won't make Indycar look very good in those worldly road racing enthusiasts eyes.....

The cars need to be a handful to drive.......

Are they really going to have power assisted steering?? If so.....Hideous!!

My opinion of course.....

I still have hope that everything turns out the way open wheel was meant to be!!

I think it will be several years before the IRL is able to attract the level of talent that F1 is looking for. GP2 is a better training ground for an aspiring F1 driver than the IRL. But assuming someone can form a deal, there could be a GP2 driver coming over that could continue his development, and then return to F1. But these days, so much of the "home grown" talent is going toward stock car racing... and why wouldn't it? Other than maybe bankrupting your daddy's company and turning you into a beggar, open wheel hasn't provided much of a return over the past decade or so.

The car (F1 has power steering too) and courses being driven probably affect an F1 team's desire to look hard at a driver. But more than that, it seems to have more to do with who he has beaten: the level of competition. Winning the GP2 title against a weak field doesn't seem to do as much for a driver as coming in 2nd against a strong field. I'm just going from memory on how various F3000 and GP2 runners have done over the past several years. But that's what CART could offer, and that's generally what the IRL and CCWS could not (cannot) offer. At some point, if this rebuilding is successful, that may change.

So while I agree with your point, I also agree with those who say that the goal of the IRL should be to build itself into a respectable series, that drivers see as a destination, not just a stepping stone. The problem is, that's been the goal of the IRL since its beginning. And thus far, not much progress has been made. Taking over some assets from the failed Champ Car series probably won't do anything in that area, though it probably clears up some confusion in the sport overall.

If the IRL develops a better plan than it's had in the past, and actually exectutes it, maybe we'll see the day when the better open wheel drivers aren't having dreams (and fantasies) of going to NASCAR, ALMS, F1 or where ever.

[jimispeed]

Well, I hope everything works out for Indycar in open wheel.

I hope as promised, Champcar and it's history will be embraced in Indycar.

It would be nice to see Indycar develop into the premier open wheel racing on the planet.

But, for these things to happen they will have to start with the car....

IMO

[pits4me]

It's only NASCAR if you want the most money, not if you want to participate in the most challenging form of auto racing.

You mean WRC, globally recognised as the most challenging of all motorsport. There's not much challenge to full throttle circle tracking I'm afraid. Unless you slide around the corners because its DIRT!

Back to subject, there are a few aspiring drivers with an eye on F1 who used US OWR as a stepping stone.

[Hoop-98]

Not until the cars are built way more for performance, and quickness!!

And that won't make Indycar look very good in those worldly road racing enthusiasts eyes.....

The cars need to be a handful to drive.......

Are they really going to have power assisted steering?? If so.....Hideous!!

My opinion of course.....

I still have hope that everything turns out the way open wheel was meant to be!!

Jimi, do you mmmm know much about F1 steering?

rh

[Jag_Warrior]

Just like in CCWS with the DP-01, the problems that the IRL is facing are a lot deeper than just choosing a snazzy looking chassis and cool sounding engine.

This so called "unification" does not end the $ Catch-22 that AOWR has been in for almost ten years now. IMO, the trick is how to decrease costs without affecting perceived value. And conversely, if anything is introduced which increases costs, will it increase perceived value fast enough to convince outside interests to invest in the series and its teams?

I remain in wait & see mode, eating my popcorn... taking in the show. But I've yet to hear or see anything that convinces me that the above Catch-22 has been figured out. The IRL couldn't figure it out before. CCWS couldn't figure it out. And I see nothing about this latest deal which addresses it, other than larger and larger subsidies to keep sponsor starved teams alive. As long as the money and desire are there, you can make that work forever. CCWS ran out of desire. Maybe George has enough money and desire to keep on spending til the day comes when the series can stand on its own. I dunno. But no, I don't see Patrick Head, Flava Flavio or Ron Dennis attending IRL test sessions, looking for talent, anytime soon.

Popcorn, anyone?

[Jag_Warrior]

It's only NASCAR if you want the most money, not if you want to participate in the most challenging form of auto racing.

Jeff Gordon could marry and divorce a super model wife a year. Even throwing in child support, he'd have enough money to live a rock star lifestyle the rest of his life. The same is true of Dale Earnhardt, Jr. and Tony Stewart. Jimmie Johnson and Carl Edwards are getting close, I'd say. But I believe that the main reason that they devote so much of their time, and make so many personal sacrifices, is because they see winning the Cup as a great accomplishment in the world of motorsports.

They're not going to race for free or give the money back, but money aside, I think you'd have an incredibly hard time convincing the sharp end of the NASCAR Sprint Cup grid that they're not already in the most challenging form of auto racing.

This isn't about beating down or denigrating the IRL. But just like with the CCWS fans, who convinced themselves that most of CCWS's problems were being caused by Bernie Ecclestone scheming and plotting against the series 23 out of 24 hours a day, sometimes reality is just staring at you from the mirror.

[indycool]

I'll take some popcorn, Jag, with butter.

The idea that F1 is considered the ultimate for a John Force or a Steve Kinser or a Jeff Gordon or a Nicky Hayden is full of what comes out of the northbound end of a southbound horse. They do their own thing, and WANT to do their own thing.

In the past, Richard Petty chose to win 200 NASCAR Cup races and not ever try an Indy car. Mario wanted to go to F1 and did and won a championship. Foyt didn't want to go. And didn't.

So Bourdais whined at us for four years about wanting to go and people were keeping him from doing it and not giving him a chance, etc., etc. Bourdais won four championships. Last I looked, he was 18th on this weekend's grid. Bully for him.

[jimispeed]

Sorry, my bad on F1 having power assisted steering.

I guess maybe Champcar is the most challenging car to drive for the drivers. It wasn't just a beautiful car with a turbo. The drivers who were veterans as well as the new drivers coming in had great things to say about how Champcar was a heavier and more powerful car, that required alot of muscling around.

That's what I want to see......

[Hoop-98]

That's all cool Jimi, and it's adjustable lol. BTW a NASCAR car is heavier and more powerful than a DP01 ;P

Hey all incoming drivers love the (Put Series Name Here) cars because they have so much (choose 1; power, downforce, stopping. cornering) and are a (choose 1; real, true, big, awesome, ) challenge to (choose1 ; stop, steer, turn, pit).

Ya know I like Modigliani's and I think real expressionists have long noses on their subjects :)

rh

[jimispeed]

That's all cool Jimi, and it's adjustable lol. BTW a NASCAR car is heavier and more powerful than a DP01 ;P

Hey all incoming drivers love the (Put Series Name Here) cars because they have so much (choose 1; power, downforce, stopping. cornering) and are a (choose 1; real, true, big, awesome, ) challenge to (choose1 ; stop, steer, turn, pit).

Ya know I like Modigliani's and I think real expressionists have long noses on their subjects :)

rh


wha??

[Jag_Warrior]

I'm with you, Indycool. There are drivers who are where they want to be and they feel no desire to do anything else. I don't expect to see Michael Schumacher do Le Mans or Indy. Years from now, he might. But I doubt it. Lauda and Prost didn't venture far from F1 either. But some others did.

What I'm getting at is that there used to be something of a two way street between AOWR and F1. Once upon a time in the west, it wasn't just AOWR drivers jonesing to do F1. And it wasn't just also ran F1 drivers trying to find refuge in America. You've been a fan for as long or longer than I've been. You know of Jimmy Clarke coming to Indy. Mario Andretti returning from Europe with his WDC crown, to do Indy again & again. Emerson Fittipaldi. Nelson Piquet. Nigel Mansell. Ayrton Senna's Firebird test. The hands down, no argument, cream of the crop of the day once considered driving here. Now? Crickets chirping. Now, hardly anyone wants to come here. And the bus leaving town is packed. Timo Glock and Christian Klien would take a beating (and a biting) from Mike Tyson before coming over (or back).

Jeff Gordon, like Petty, is exactly where he wants to be. And Tony Stewart, like Foyt, will do as he pleases. But where is Mika Hakkinen? Where is Juan Pablo Montoya? Where is Jacques Villeneuve? All I'm saying is, there was a time when drivers of this caliber would have seen a return to AOWR at least as a realistic and viable option. But Wheldon, Franchitti, Hornish and Bourdais wanted to get on the bus out of town last year in the worst way. If the bus had had four seats, instead of three, all would be somewhere else now.

So the mission is (I guess) to build something that homegrown talent will aspire to. And maybe later, others will be drawn to it as well. That's where I admire NASCAR. They've found a magic formula which pits new faces against seasoned, accomplished, well known veterans. And people go for that! To truly be a somebody you've got to beat a big somebody. Jeff Gordon is who he is because he beat Dale Earnhardt, Dale Jarrett and Rusty Wallace. And Jimmie Johnson? He beat Gordon in a great showdown last year. Bourdais had to win four titles in a row to get an STR drive? How sad... but who did he beat? Same with Dario and Hornish. Lucky for Hornish he has some Penske points to keep him in the game. AOWR let too many of its legends go away before the newbies could rough them up and make a name for themselves, IMO. Now, the job will be harder.

Popcorn good. Kernels bad. Don't tell my doc I'm using real butter.

[Hoop-98]

wha??

http://image.guardian.co.uk/sys-images/Arts/Arts_/gallery/2006/06/22/modigliani.jpg

rh

[geek49203]

It's only NASCAR if you want the most money, not if you want to participate in the most challenging form of auto racing.

Uh, judging by the struggles of JPM and the rest of the open-wheel guys, I'm saying that NASCAR is indeed challenging. It might be challenging in a different way, but there is indeed a skill set required for NASCAR that is required and difficult to obtain.

NASCAR of today is so much like CART of 1990-1995 that it's eerie....

[nanders]

This so called "unification" does not end the $ Catch-22 that AOWR has been in for almost ten years now. IMO, the trick is how to decrease costs without affecting perceived value. And conversely, if anything is introduced which increases costs, will it increase perceived value fast enough to convince outside interests to invest in the series and its teams?

IMO, the answer to your Catch22 is not to decrease the cost but increase the money. But IMO, it will never happen in a spec series. Lowering cost will only make a below average series.




Jeff Gordon, like Petty, is exactly where he wants to be. And Tony Stewart, like Foyt, will do as he pleases. But where is Mika Hakkinen? Where is Juan Pablo Montoya? Where is Jacques Villeneuve? All I'm saying is, there was a time when drivers of this caliber would have seen a return to AOWR at least as a realistic and viable option. But Wheldon, Franchitti, Hornish and Bourdais wanted to get on the bus out of town last year in the worst way. If the bus had had four seats, instead of three, all would be somewhere else now.

They won't come to a spec series.

Increase the money by opening up the rules that encourages manufactures to compete at a technological level .. and then here comes the money. Then here comes the drivers. Once the manufactures and drivers are back then here comes the sponsors. That's the Reaganomics of AOWR. IMO.

[Jag_Warrior]

IMO, the answer to your Catch22 is not to decrease the cost but increase the money. But IMO, it will never happen in a spec series. Lowering cost will only make a below average series.

Yes, but increasing the money how? They're struggling to lower costs because $ are not forthcoming from independent sources. It was the pouring of money down a deep rathole that (I think) caused Kalkhoven to say, enuf!




They won't come to a spec series.

I don't know that they care about how spec a series is. Maybe they do, but I've never heard any of them mention it. But I don't think any of them want to participate in something that's perceived as less than top shelf.


Increase the money by opening up the rules that encourages manufactures to compete at a technological level .. and then here comes the money. Then here comes the drivers. Once the manufactures and drivers are back then here comes the sponsors. That's the Reaganomics of AOWR. IMO.

Supply side racing? I like it already! :D

For years I've argued on here that lowering costs does not address the issue of decreased perceived value. So what do people keep talking about and trying to fix? Well, costs, of course. I'll admit right now that I don't know exactly what needs to be done to fix this well & truly f'ed up machine. But I do know this: once you cut costs to the point that the product is affected, your problems will multiply, as your customers will abandon a "cheap" product. People want good value for their money, or they want to make a good deal. But has anyone heard a person brag that they bought a cheap house, a cheap car, a cheap watch, etc.??? And if you're the governor of New York, you want to be able to tell your pals at the old age home in 30 years that you wouldn't even settle for cheap... well, never mind.

I don't know that just opening up the rules is going to cause struggling automotive companies to pour tens of millions into a form of racing which is watched by few and followed closely by even fewer. But I agree that just "staying the course" (to quote a modern day fiscally liberal neocon) is not the right way to go. I suggested strapping Paris Hilton and Britney Spears to the noses of the top two cars every race. For some reason, no one took me seriously. Even though I bet my house that the ratings would be up 100%... garonteed!!!

[nanders]

I don't know that they care about how spec a series is. Maybe they do, but I've never heard any of them mention it. But I don't think any of them want to participate in something that's perceived as less than top shelf.

None of the cool series where manufactures and sponsors are involved today are spec series.




I don't know that just opening up the rules is going to cause struggling automotive companies to pour tens of millions into a form of racing which is watched by few and followed closely by even fewer. But I agree that just "staying the course" (to quote a modern day fiscally liberal neocon) is not the right way to go.

Manufactures are telling the Hydrogen Electric Racing Federation they like their concept and they want to be involved. Tony George has entertained the HERF. It seems to me that building a rules package for a technology the manufactures are saying they want to be involved in, wouldn't be the dumbest thing you could do. Indy was one of the major places where technology was developed, but recently they have lost their way. They have lost their way while F1, NASCAR and ALMS still all have manufactures competing at a technical level. hmmmm.

Isn't it funny that that's the series' where all the money is at? When I hear arguments that say "AOWR doesn't need the competition at the technology level," I'm thinking that's what they have now and it ain't working but the series' that are competing at the technical level have it all going for them. What's that thing Homer Simpson says? doh!


I suggested strapping Paris Hilton and Britney Spears to the noses of the top two cars every race. For some reason, no one took me seriously. Even though I bet my house that the ratings would be up 100%... garonteed!!!

Call me shallow Hal, but if they had a "Nopi Chick" type deal going it would also bring people to the track. No Nopi Chicks needed at Surfers Paradise :)

[indycool]

I agree, Jag. All those ideas hafta run their course as something grows. I don't think a spec series, right now, when the sport is trying to stabilize itself, is a bad deal and might give the smaller teams a breath of air until or unless the popularity grows.

Assuming it WILL grow, opening up the formula will be a step down the line as interest from manufacturers might build. Toyota and Honda spent a lot of money when they were in CART and the IRL. Only Honda is there now. Yes, the series can use some other engine manufacturers. But until THEY say "yes" to something, there's no point.

As for drivers wanting to do it, "build it and they will come." The melding of the series is a slow roast, not a microwave.

EDIT: nanders, NASCAR still uses carburetors. So much for high tech.

[nanders]

EDIT: nanders, NASCAR still uses carburetors. So much for high tech.

They have engineering budgets 10 times any IndyCar team. They are integrating F1 technology.

In the following article you will find a former CART/F1/now in NASCAR engineer explaining why NASCAR is winning in that regard.

PS: IC I wasn't even making a argument saying NASCAR was high tech ..... but they are, even with that inconvenient little carburator.

http://www.gordonkirby.com/categories/columns/theway/2008/the_way_it_is_no116.html

[bravefish]

F1 will always be regarded as the 'pinnacle' in open wheel racing regardless - if drivers from this series get a chance then great, good luck to them. Is Bourdais wishing he was back in Indycar now the series have merged ? Probably not. But all the best for todays opening race starting from 18th - pretty sad for a guy of his ability...

[Jag_Warrior]

None of the cool series where manufactures and sponsors are involved today are spec series.

Most all series are "spec" now to some degree. And even F1 and NASCAR Sprint Cup are a lot more "spec" than they used to be: mandated COT shell in NASCAR and the McLaren ECU in F1. But I understand your point. In the case of CCWS and the IRL, I'd say it's a case of being like most of us guys: we date one girl at a time only because we can't get a second girl interested. I've tried "opening up the specs" too. But all it ever got me was a drink thrown in my direction.




Manufactures are telling the Hydrogen Electric Racing Federation they like their concept and they want to be involved. Tony George has entertained the HERF. It seems to me that building a rules package for a technology the manufactures are saying they want to be involved in, wouldn't be the dumbest thing you could do.

No argument from me on that one. I think it's a great concept that has a future. But when? Last year's conference on the Hydrogen 500 attracted most everybody who was anybody in the automotive world. There was a lot of back slapping and nodding of heads. The first race is set for May 2009. It's a go... except for the fact that no one seems to be working (seriously) on a car yet. I still think that it will happen. But I understand that Peter DeLorenzo finally realizes that his initial goal and timeframe were a bit overambitious, to say the least.


Indy was one of the major places where technology was developed, but recently they have lost their way. They have lost their way while F1, NASCAR and ALMS still all have manufactures competing at a technical level. hmmmm.

Emotion and the desire to settle old debts came into play. Other series kept their eyes on the prize, and they've been rewarded with success. IRL and CCWS thought that one would be rewarded simply by out lasting the other. I think many are in for a big surprise on that one. Manufacturers have to believe that their money will be spent wisely within a stable environment. Maybe someday they'll get it back together.


Isn't it funny that that's the series' where all the money is at? When I hear arguments that say "AOWR doesn't need the competition at the technology level," I'm thinking that's what they have now and it ain't working but the series' that are competing at the technical level have it all going for them. What's that thing Homer Simpson says? doh!

The more competition the better, I say. Chassis, tires, fuel, engines, etc. But just like with having multiple dates on the same night, how do you accomplish it without getting your tires slashed? How do you get what you want without going down a dangerous road? NASCAR and F1 have more than just manufacturer money. Though they are the biggest backers, there is still something of value there with or without the manufacturers.



Call me shallow Hal, but if they had a "Nopi Chick" type deal going it would also bring people to the track. No Nopi Chicks needed at Surfers Paradise :)

Somewhere, buried on an archived hard drive, I have some pictures of Bronte, before she got married to Alex Tagliani (and before she got the twin "enhancements"). I remember the photos because she was posing with Vasser's orange Visteon sponsored Toyota/Reynard at Surfer's Paradise - I guess that's when she and Alex met. OK, that's not really why I remember the photos. :o She was wearing the tiniest of lil orange bikinis, and she was getting doused with water by one of the crew guys. Good grief a mighty! :eek: I've been to NOPI events and seen the hoochie shows they put on. But other than F1, CART was the "OG" when it came to puttin' on that kind of show.

Oh, and I don't want to strap Brit and the Valtrex spokesgirl to a car for sexy reasons. I'm thinking more of strapping them to the cars of Paul Tracy and maybe Marco Andretti. :devil: Thunder Dome, baby. Thunder Dome!

[Placid]

If only a GP2 team or an F3 team can associate with the Champ Car Atlantic Series in bringing a driver from an American series - it is the only option.

Sorry about Indy Car drivers. They won't cut it.

[jimispeed]

If only a GP2 team or an F3 team can associate with the Champ Car Atlantic Series in bringing a driver from an American series - it is the only option.

Sorry about Indy Car drivers. They won't cut it.


Unless the format is changed and evened out, and the cars become a great challenge for the drivers.

[bblocker68]

Sorry, my bad on F1 having power assisted steering.

I guess maybe Champcar is the most challenging car to drive for the drivers. It wasn't just a beautiful car with a turbo. The drivers who were veterans as well as the new drivers coming in had great things to say about how Champcar was a heavier and more powerful car, that required alot of muscling around.

That's what I want to see......

I'm sure the Super Aguri has the Panoz beat as toughest to drive cars, lol. Jordan's and Midland's qualify too since they were all the same team at one time.

The Panoz was a great car. It'll be a shame not to see it run after Long Beach.

[bblocker68]

F1 will always be regarded as the 'pinnacle' in open wheel racing regardless - if drivers from this series get a chance then great, good luck to them. Is Bourdais wishing he was back in Indycar now the series have merged ? Probably not. But all the best for todays opening race starting from 18th - pretty sad for a guy of his ability...

Hope you watched the race........

[indycool]

I really don't understand why SUPPOSED "difficulty to drive" seems to be such a great factor for some, even when they don't know what they're talking about. Different cars and different tracks demand different techniques to go fast. Not more or less difficult, but different.

If "difficulty" was such a factor, one might consider a crane operator hoisting a 30-ton girder to the 37th floor of a new skyscraper being built and swinging it into place "on the money."

[jimispeed]

I really don't understand why SUPPOSED "difficulty to drive" seems to be such a great factor for some, even when they don't know what they're talking about. Different cars and different tracks demand different techniques to go fast. Not more or less difficult, but different.

If "difficulty" was such a factor, one might consider a crane operator hoisting a 30-ton girder to the 37th floor of a new skyscraper being built and swinging it into place "on the money."


Well that may be fine for you, but I want to see the best drivers in the highest performance open wheel cars.

I used to watch something pretty close to that.

I hope to see something even better in the future.

[indycool]

But how do you judge what that is, other than everyone's individual opinion?

Put Steve Kinser in a Ferrari at Monaco or Michael Schumacher in an Outlaw sprinter at Eldora and the performance by EITHER of them in those settings, IMO, isn't going to be what they're used to. But both are certainly very good race drivers and the cars are certainly high-performance cars.

[nanders]

But how do you judge what that is, other than everyone's individual opinion?

Put Steve Kinser in a Ferrari at Monaco or Michael Schumacher in an Outlaw sprinter at Eldora and the performance by EITHER of them in those settings, IMO, isn't going to be what they're used to. But both are certainly very good race drivers and the cars are certainly high-performance cars.

I would think that experience in any type of car counts for allot. If you gave Schumi 6 months in a WoO car, wouldn't you think he would have it up to speed?

[indycool]

Might well be the same for Kinser in a Ferrari. Might well be the same for John Force in either one. Might not. We'll never know. But to say one's the BEST over the others is both individual preference and opinion, which everyone is of course entitled to, but should not be represented as FACT.

[Jag_Warrior]

Hope you watched the race........

I did. And in my mind, there's no doubt that Bourdais made the right decision. In an inferior car, Sebastian was pulling away from one of the (so called) best drivers in the world.

I think that he's better than the car he's got in F1 this season. But a few more performances like that and he may find a home with a better team at some point. He doesn't have time on his side, but last night, he showed that he's got what it takes to be in Formula One.

[nanders]

Hope you watched the race........

I just realized how late you stayed up to watch that. Does momma let you sleep in after this? Or do you have kids by the bed going, "daddy wake up!"?

I feel asleep and watched the dvr before I got out of bed.

Seabass rocked.

[IndyCar Garage]

Bourdais ran a great race until he had a mechanical error and exited the race. Fewest finishers in an F1 race since the US Grand Prix fiasco a few years ago. I enjoy watching the F1 races, but I find the IndyCar Series to be much more exciting racing. The F1 cars are much more technologically-driven and I wish the IndyCars would up their game in that area...Can't wait for the season to start!

-IndyCar Garage
http://www.indycargarage.com

[FIAT1]

There is not one driver on this continent that is good to be competiitive in F1.

[SoCalPVguy]

There is not one driver on this continent that is good to be competiitive in F1.

Did you write that before you saw Bordais' performance to day in F1 ? I think that Sebass'es performance, if it goes well to very well all year will open some eyes in F1 to look at some other American OW drivers for the furure. If he is a failure, and I don't think he will be, F1 will proabably say never again to AOWR drivers.

[nanders]

Did you write that before you saw Bordais' performance to day in F1 ? I think that Sebass'es performance, if it goes well to very well all year will open some eyes in F1 to look at some other American OW drivers for the furure. If he is a failure, and I don't think he will be, F1 will proabably say never again to AOWR drivers.

How's about that AJ Dinger?

[Colin_Harvey]

Did you write that before you saw Bordais' performance to day in F1 ? I think that Sebass'es performance, if it goes well to very well all year will open some eyes in F1 to look at some other American OW drivers for the furure. If he is a failure, and I don't think he will be, F1 will proabably say never again to AOWR drivers.

Except Bourdais isn't really an American OW driver. He is a French driver who won the F3000 championship and who then happened to race in America for 5 years. Had he got an F1 ride in 2003 then he'd probably have been as competitive then as he will be in 2008.

The question should not be "Will anyone in Indycar ever make it to F1?" but rather "Will anyone on the verge of F1 consider moving to Indycar?" The reason that former Champcar drivers such as Bourdais and Glock are in F1 is because they were considered F1 material anyway. It just so happens that for one reason or another, they weren't able to secure an F1 ride immediately.

Competing in the Champcar series is not what has made Bourdais and Glock into F1 drivers. They were at that level before ever making the move to the U.S.

[!!WALDO!!]

Competing in the Champcar series is not what has made Bourdais and Glock into F1 drivers. They were at that level before ever making the move to the U.S.

Racing instead of testing, competition rather than racing themselves. Too bad for both as they had great runs.

[BenRoethig]

There is not one driver on this continent that is good to be competiitive in F1.

Yeah, they'd have learn to do things like let the car drive and whine a lot.

[Jag_Warrior]

So Danica Patrick is going to F1?!

[SarahFan]

penske, AGR and gannassi are the top of the food chain....

and I'd venture a wager at 5 to 1 that any one one of there top drivers...andretti, patrick, kaanaan, mutah, briscoe, helio dixon or wheldon would jump at an F1 drive tomorrow if given the chance....



interesting thread.....funny dillusional responses

[SarahFan]

There is not one driver on this continent that is good to be competiitive in F1.


the internet is awesome!

[indycool]

Ken, I might take that bet for some of those guys -- Helio and Kanaan, for two of 'em, who are a little older than the rest and are well set racing here. Marco and Patrick are probably not ready yet (and may never be). Mutoh, too, just getting into the high-powered stuff. Briscoe and Wheldon, I'd reckon they would. Dixon, probably.

But I guess I still don't understand why F1 should be the absolute dream of everyone. It ain't for me, for one, and there are a lot of people in the U.S. who do not care.

[JSH]

There is not one driver on this continent that is good to be competiitive in F1.

Which continent? Judging by your name, are you saying Europe? :p

[weeflyonthewall]

But how do you judge what that is, other than everyone's individual opinion?

Put Steve Kinser in a Ferrari at Monaco or Michael Schumacher in an Outlaw sprinter at Eldora and the performance by EITHER of them in those settings, IMO, isn't going to be what they're used to. But both are certainly very good race drivers and the cars are certainly high-performance cars.


Might well be the same for Kinser in a Ferrari. Might well be the same for John Force in either one. Might not. We'll never know. But to say one's the BEST over the others is both individual preference and opinion, which everyone is of course entitled to, but should not be represented as FACT.

Wasn't that the idea of the REAL Race of Champions? Not the excuse IROC became. I say put Kinser or whoever up against Travis Pastrana, he'll drive/ride anything on wheels and has beaten some of the worlds best. There's a guy who deserves an Indy rookie test.

[indycool]

That's why I have a different kind of respect for guys like Robby Gordon and John Andretti and Tony Stewart, who have won races in different types of cars on different kinds of tracks.

[Albert D. Kallal]

I really don't understand why SUPPOSED "difficulty to drive" seems to be such a great factor for some, even when they don't know what they're talking about. Different cars and different tracks demand different techniques to go fast. Not more or less difficult, but different.


we talking about challenging here.

A kid in grade 4 can be competitive with a chess grand master if they are playing tic tac toe.

What we want here is an environment that challenges and ENABLES you to show a skill difference. If we race on 2 mph electric scooters then I can be completive with Michael Schumacher. The fact is that the top level of baseball is FAR more challenging then little league baseball.

Now I suppose we could water and grease down the baseball diamond field so much that neither really good players, or really bad players to get any traction when they run. The end result of that really crappie baseball diamond is you’ll find little difference between the AAA players and the top national league.

Want to compare the top golfers in the top ranks as compared to the junior leagues?

It was IRL’s Buddy rice that tried a stint last year in A1AGP, and was sent packing. Yet Neel Jani from champ car got a pole, and won his race. ( I think he's gone on to win two races now).



If "difficulty" was such a factor, one might consider a crane operator hoisting a 30-ton girder to the 37th floor of a new skyscraper being built and swinging it into place "on the money."

Sure, I have no problem with that. If we’re talking about very high performance cranes that takes years to learn, and you have BMW, Ferrari, Mercedes Benz, Honda, Toyota etc all building incredibly high performance cranes, then sure I have no problem with this.

On the other hand if an old guy of 50 years old can operate that crane as good as a 25 year old, then you have an environment in which high levels of skills to not really make a difference between the people..do they? Do you see anyone who is 50 years old and can drive in F1? Do you see any 40 year olds in F1? (you do in NASCAR).

You think you will see a 75 year old man start to beat tiger woods at golf? I suspect you can easily be 60 years old and drive a crane well. You can’t in F1.

It is the combination of high skills and the hand eye coordination that garners the public viewing respect of the sport. This is why you don’t see crane operators getting 45 million a year.

It is the combination of the challenge plus the difficulty that is the issue here, not that it’s just difficult.

The critical concept here is not so much that it’s difficult, as is compared to an environment that allows people with better talent to make a real difference.

That is the critical issue. The most super gifted person with the greatest hand eye coordination can pretty well learned to drive an F1 car, or play golf extremely well.

So, that F1 driver might not do much better then blow joe running that crane. However, put them BOTH in a F1 car, and you instantly see the difference. Even if both people never been in a F1 car, the person with a superior skills is gonna beat the pants off of the other guy.

Champ car was FULL of amazing talent in the last few years. Neel Jani stint in A1GP proved that. Sebastian’s spectacular run in his FIRST race in F1 proved that. The fact of the matter is that we have a significant number of drivers that had driven in F1, and they were most certainly willing to by their time in champ car. Doornbos was a great example and raced in F1 Even Justin Wilson had a stint in F1. Will Power is another driver that I have little doubt could do well in F1.

With a good team and good car, any these drivers would do well in the IRL in short time. The question is can you say the reverse?

I would be willing to bet money that my brother who done driving instruction on the track is likely better then Milkia. Do you really think Milka could drive in F1? Does that mean my brother should be driving in the IRL? (he did get 4.0 for car Control at Bondarent racing, and Tony Stewart had a 4.1).

So, the issue is not because the racing is different, the issue here is how challenging, and HOW MUCH does the racing reward those with superior skills.

Driving a very slow electric scooter that you often see retired people driving in the mall is not going to really run much faster if you drive that same scooter with Michael Schumacher. And, you can be 60 and drive that schooter well.

At the end of the day this is all about at what level of talent and what kind of challenge it takes to be competitive in the particular sport you’re talking about.

The way I see it champ car was a considerable step above that challenge and talent level required to be competitive in the IRL.

I am absolutely 100% convinced that Katherine Legge can run circles around Dankia. However look at how difficult of a time that Katherine had in champ car.

Last year the CCWS had a number of drivers with F1 experience ( part of this was due to the fact that F1 changed their testing rules, and red bull had a lot of drivers sitting around, so some of them were paid to go over to champ car for the year).

Fact is that IRL cars have less power, too much downfornce, and are simply less challenging to drive. The issue is how much of a difference is there between the best and the worst, and does the environment show that difference? Want to compare top golfers to the worst ones? There is a HUGE difference.

Now, the REASON this issue is being brought up, is without that high level of challenge, then the people in that venue will NOT deserve the respect of their peers and fans alike.

We respect the drivers in F1 because they are considered to be the best of the best, and I guarantee virtually any of them could move into any other racing venue with 4 wheels and learn to be competitive in a relatively short time. I simply can’t say the reverse is true for the IRL.

I also think that Graham Rahal has that special talent. I can only hope that the IRL changes their direction a bit, and moves towards making the cars more of a challenge. Without that additional challenge and difficulty, drivers like this will not continue to grow.

You can’t turn someone into a Olympic skier by having them go down a bunny hill all day. You must create an environment in which these people are challenged, and pushed to their limits. Without that special challenge, you don’t create the greats, and it really just that simple.

Now, don't get me wrong, the IRL is very challening, and has it place in the ladder of motor sports, the question is do we want the bar higher then it is now?

Albert D. Kallal
Edmonton, Alberta Canada
kallal@msn.com

[indycool]

It's a long explanation, Albert, to saying that, IYO, F1 drivers are better than everyone else in every other form of motorsports. Indeed, many around the world think that way for various reasons, not to mention the marketing of the series is better than the world has ever seen.

They are driving distinctive cars on road courses. That means to me that they are the best at driving those distinctive cars on road courses. The so-called "ladder series" everywhere else in the world are formula cars leading hopefully to F1.

Not so in the U.S. No other country has 800-plus short tracks running stock cars, midgets, sprints, supermods, etc., with many drivers seeking the idea of reaching Indy or NASCAR, two entirely different forms of racing.

That's why I say the skills are different and the guy in the stands at Eldora watching Steve Kinser or Sammy Swindell broadslide a half-mile track at an average of over 100 miles an hour in an Outlaw sprinter probably would think Rubens Barrichello was a 7-11 cashier if asked.

It is the same old argument that's gone on for decades. Those with a road racing preference believe their preference to be better than everyone else's.

If Formula One was so popular in the U.S., why didn't it draw half the crowds of the Indianapolis 500 or Brickyard 400?

[Hoop-98]

Albert, the DP01 has more downforce in RC trim than the Dallara, of course I could go on, but start with that 1.


rh

[pits4me]

If Formula One was so popular in the U.S., why didn't it draw half the crowds of the Indianapolis 500 or Brickyard 400?

It was very popular in the 70's and 80's when they ran at Long Beach and Watkins Glen. The crowds were HUGE. Running races on both the east coast and west coast was ideal back then. Most of the races could be seen on terrestrial TV at a decent hour. Now we are stuck with reality series in prime time and F1 relegated to the wee hours.

The slide started in 1981 when they gave Las Vegas a go versus Watkins Glen which impacted Long Beach. Chris Pook pulled the F1 plug on LBGP 3 years late. F1 tried Dallas, Detroit, and Pheonix and after the dismal support in 1989 left the USA for almost ten years. The Mexico race faired just as bad. Interesting how IndyCar/CART capitalized on F1's demise over the same time period.

Couple this with the direction Bernie took F1 worldwide, making the cost to host a race so expensive for the promoters that many fans couldn't afford the tickets. Even corporate giveaways in 1989 Pheonix didn't help.

Hard to compare with Brickyard ot Indy. Not apples to apples. When it looked like USGP was on the rebound we get the tire fiasco. Stick a fork in it Bernie. Its done here. Unless its back to two affordable races. Long Beach and Miami but that will never happen in my lifetime.

[BenRoethig]

It was very popular in the 70's and 80's when they ran at Long Beach and Watkins Glen. The crowds were HUGE. Running races on both the east coast and west coast was ideal back then. Most of the races could be seen on terrestrial TV at a decent hour. Now we are stuck with reality series in prime time and F1 relegated to the wee hours.


F1 in those days was a much different and much better product than what we have today.

[Colin]

F1 in those days had Americans competing and winning. Gurney, Hill, Revson, and Andretti all helped spark interest in F1. As CART rose to prominence who was in F1? Cheever? It's no surprise that CART had so much appeal. Andretti, Mears, Sullivan, Unser, Johncock, Donohue, Rutherford.... so many Americans to cheer for!

[weeflyonthewall]

Especially when Emmo and Nigell came over.

[garyshell]

If Formula One was so popular in the U.S., why didn't it draw half the crowds of the Indianapolis 500 or Brickyard 400?


Oh my, where should I start???

1. A series that is shown in primetime practically every week versus one that you have to get up at 7 AM on the East coast or 4 AM on the west coast to see live or stay up until 2:30 AM on the east coast.

2. A series that is promoted in heavy rotation versus one that has 1/100th of the advertising. Actually on second thought more like 1/1000th.

3. Ticket prices.

4. Accessibility. You stand more chance of getting a ride on the space shuttle than you will ever have of your shadow gracing the paddock of an F1 track on race day.

5. The xenophobic attitude of sports fans in the USA. (A fact I am very sad to have to discuss.)

Is that enough of a start?

Gary

[BenRoethig]

Oh my, where should I start???

1. A series that is shown in primetime practically every week versus one that you have to get up at 7 AM on the East coast or 4 AM on the west coast to see live or stay up until 2:30 AM on the east coast.

They've tried to put f1 on broadcast T.V. The Ratings have just been abysmal and didn't warrant the fee. That included the USGP. With good reason too. The races have been terrible the last 15 years. Costs have skyrocketed to a point where only a couple teams can win and computers haven all but taken it out of the drivers hands. You could have the reincarnation of Jim Clark and be a back marker because your software isn't up to par.


5. The xenophobic attitude of sports fans in the USA. (A fact I am very sad to have to discuss.)

Is that enough of a start?

GaryWe're Xenophobic? Because we don't latch on to what's popular in europe like everyone else we're xenophobic? How about this, we just don't like what everyone else likes. Things like a bunch of stuck up jerks going around similar tracks (save Monoco) in vehicles that have more aides than a F-16 with the same one winning each time just doesn't appeal to me nor does a bunch of guys kicking a ball around a field with seemingly no strategy involved. Their sports have been given a much better chance over her than ours have been given over there.

[indycool]

Colin, Donohue's career began and ended long before CART.

Hey, Gary, guess we finally disagreed on one, but we had a good streak goin'. :)

The ticket prices for F1 at Indy were no different than the other two races. Ben's right on the TV.

In countries other than the U.S., sports fans' only major choices are soccer and motor racing and for them, F1 is el ultimo. There are many other choices for the sports entertainment fan and dollar in the U.S. than any other country. And I don't know what Xenophobic is, but if it means I have a phobia against someone named Xeno, just what the h3ll does he drive? :)

[BenRoethig]

Colin, Donohue's career began and ended long before CART.

Hey, Gary, guess we finally disagreed on one, but we had a good streak goin'. :)

The ticket prices for F1 at Indy were no different than the other two races. Ben's right on the TV.

In countries other than the U.S., sports fans' only major choices are soccer and motor racing and for them, F1 is el ultimo. There are many other choices for the sports entertainment fan and dollar in the U.S. than any other country. And I don't know what Xenophobic is, but if it means I have a phobia against someone named Xeno, just what the h3ll does he drive? :)

Fear of anything foreign.

[indycool]

Oh, THAT Warrior Princess.........not scared of her (pant, pant, pant).

If it's foreign, guess I should fear all Dallaras and American-based but Japanese-controlled Honda engines.....eating steaks at Bardi's in Toronto....the bullet train to LeMans.....some fun in Brazil.......naw, I guess I don't qualify as Xenophobic.......sorry.

[SarahFan]

Ken, I might take that bet for some of those guys -- Helio and Kanaan, for two of 'em, who are a little older than the rest and are well set racing here. Marco and Patrick are probably not ready yet (and may never be). Mutoh, too, just getting into the high-powered stuff. Briscoe and Wheldon, I'd reckon they would. Dixon, probably.

But I guess I still don't understand why F1 should be the absolute dream of everyone. It ain't for me, for one, and there are a lot of people in the U.S. who do not care.



there's alot of reasons none will ever end up there......but I stand by my wager (of coarse we will never know).....if anyone of them were offered a seat tomorrow they would jump in an instant

[garyshell]

We're Xenophobic? Because we don't latch on to what's popular in europe like everyone else we're xenophobic? How about this, we just don't like what everyone else likes.

Sorry, I should have been more specific. The xenophobia I was talking about was that towards the foreign drivers.

Gary

[indycool]

That's okay, Gary....let's keep talking about the Warrior Princess! :)

[nanders]

Will anyone in Indycar ever make it to F1 now???

After thinking about this for a few days. I don't care. I'd prefer to think of IndyCar as the destination rather then a feeder series. But as long as there are International drivers in the ICS it will have some degree of a F1 "feeder/failure" series.

Which with NASCAR it's a little different because it seems to be an AOWR retirement senior series ..... :p

We respect the drivers in F1 because they are considered to be the best of the best, and I guarantee virtually any of them could move into any other racing venue with 4 wheels and learn to be competitive in a relatively short time. I simply can’t say the reverse is true for the IRL.

Well, it couldn't be said of any other series either.

As an add-on, Michael Schumacher doesn't agree with you if his comments about driving DTM cars are to be believed.

According to Michael, he doesn't have the talent to win in DTM.

[weeflyonthewall]

Sorry, I should have been more specific. The xenophobia I was talking about was that towards the foreign drivers.

Gary

Give it time, fans are just getting used to importing pro-basketball players.

[Placid]

How's about that AJ Dinger?

Just gave up on him. There is a small weight gain on his face in cas someone has noticed. A-Jax has no ride what-so ever. He might as well either go to Grand-Am or ALMS.

[nanders]

If his contract was kaput! .... I'd match him up with Michael Cannon in a heart beat.

[F1boat]

Well, it couldn't be said of any other series either.

As an add-on, Michael Schumacher doesn't agree with you if his comments about driving DTM cars are to be believed.

According to Michael, he doesn't have the talent to win in DTM.

And Montoya hasn't exactly dominated NASCAR.

[DanicaFan]

The ones who always say F1 drivers are the best, why do you say that and what do you base it on ? They are not. An IRL driver is more diverse in that they drive both road/street courses and ovals. F1 drivers would be lost on an oval. An IRL driver would run circles around them. :D

Its not every driver's goal to be an F1 driver. Danica, Tony Kanaan, Dixon, Marco Andretti, Wheldon, Castroneves, Dario, Sam Hornish (I know they are NASCAR now) can run against anyone in F1.

And you definitely cant compare NASCAR and open wheel drivers in a true aspect. Stock cars are a different monster all together.

[Jag_Warrior]

The ones who always say F1 drivers are the best, why do you say that and what do you base it on ? They are not. An IRL driver is more diverse in that they drive both road/street courses and ovals. F1 drivers would be lost on an oval. An IRL driver would run circles around them. :D

Its not every driver's goal to be an F1 driver. Danica, Tony Kanaan, Dixon, Marco Andretti, Wheldon, Castroneves, Dario, Sam Hornish (I know they are NASCAR now) can run against anyone in F1.


This one time at band camp...

[!!WALDO!!]

Look, INDY CAR, F-1 and NASCAR Sprint Cup are the top end of the sport. There are more millionaire drivers in NASCAR right now than in F-1. Most Car owners there are looking for the cheap. "Want to drive F-1 then here is what I will pay you." If you say no then someone else will take the seat. Sprint Cup is no different as being at the apex allows the car owners flexability at paying them what they desire not what the driver think his value is.
Of the three, the ICS is the lightest paying series as there is no money in the series and the new program takes care of the owners and not the drivers. Without car owners, no cars and drivers need cars. Racing Economics 101.

[F1boat]

This one time at band camp...

I believe that the drivers mentioned by DanicaFan might be competent to drive an F1 car well and I certainly rank Dan Wheldon higher than some F-1 drivers. But I don't think that any driver is Indy Car is as good as Kimi Raikkonen or Fernando Alonso. Of course, this is just my opinion.

[DexDexter]

Look, INDY CAR, F-1 and NASCAR Sprint Cup are the top end of the sport. There are more millionaire drivers in NASCAR right now than in F-1. Most Car owners there are looking for the cheap. "Want to drive F-1 then here is what I will pay you." If you say no then someone else will take the seat. Sprint Cup is no different as being at the apex allows the car owners flexability at paying them what they desire not what the driver think his value is.
Of the three, the ICS is the lightest paying series as there is no money in the series and the new program takes care of the owners and not the drivers. Without car owners, no cars and drivers need cars. Racing Economics 101.

EVERY single driver in F1 is a millionaire.

[nanders]

EVERY single driver in F1 is a millionaire.

Link please?

[indycool]

So what if they are? That doesn't make them any better or worse than any other driver. I can work a job for one widget maker and make "X" and work the same job at another widget maker and make "Y."

[Hoop-98]

Put any ot them on a bike in moto-x :)

[Easy Drifter]

We seem to have wandered off topic.
Danicafan: There have been many F1 drivers who were winners on ovals. There have been oval drivers who won on road courses including F1.
At the moment there are too many good feeder series running in Europe for IRL drivers to get much chance. If the new spec cars are better road racing cars and the series runs on tough road circuits there certainly will be chances.
In the mid 70's one of the main feeder series was the Cdn. F. Atlantic series. Yes, a lot of the drivers were not North American but it was a main proving ground. It was also a main feeder for Indy and had no ovals!
Then there was the time 6 or 7 pro Atlantic teams showed up at Charlotte for a SCCA spring regional! They ran all formula cars together for first practice. The Formula Vees came off the road course and headed for the top off the banking and then shot down to the bottom to gain speed and then back up at maybe 80. By this time the Atlantics were up to 160/170 and running near the top groove. Groups were quickly changed before disaster hit.

[Jag_Warrior]

An IRL driver is more diverse in that they drive both road/street courses and ovals. F1 drivers would be lost on an oval. An IRL driver would run circles around them.

Danica, Tony Kanaan, Dixon, Marco Andretti, Wheldon, Castroneves, Dario, Sam Hornish (I know they are NASCAR now) can run against anyone in F1.

I don't think that being an IRL driver makes one inferior to any and all F1 drivers. But anyone who believes that a person who has never won a professional open wheel race, or whose standings show them to be average at best, can run circles around the sharp end of the F1 grid... that's the same mindset that you see on certain "fantasy" boards, where any CCWS driver can beat any IRL driver (even the current IRL drivers who scorched them when both were in CART). So like I said, this one time at band camp, these four twin sister cheerleaders from another school... :dozey:

In my world, Senna was always better than Prost or Mansell. I would never admit any different. But that was me being a Senna fan(atic). I was still plugged into reality well enough to know that wasn't (always) true. I think certain IRL drivers would do well enough against certain F1 drivers, in either F1 or IRL cars. But if it was my own money that I was betting, I'd take the sharp end of the F1 grid to beat the sharp end of the IRL grid in either type of car. That's a personal opinion based on observation over the years... because it'll never happen, as I don't see Lewis (or Kimi or Fernando or Felipe or Kubica) ever coming to the IRL and I don't see Danica (or Dan or Dario or Castroneves) ever going to F1. I do believe Rubens Barrichello might come over to do Indy if Honda remains a player.

But short of a real ROC race, we will never settle this.

[!!WALDO!!]

EVERY single driver in F1 is a millionaire.

So using Al Gore's logic if you make $250,000 for 4 years then you are a millionaire. How about $25,000 for 40 years.
Yes all F-1 drivers make around $1,000,000 but that does not make them millionaires.
Justin Wilson is? He drove F-1. Yet a JPM can make a base around $750,000 and end up doubling up what he made in one season with McLaren.
May F-1 drivers price themselves out of the sport like Jacques Villenueve, others want to continue to drive, Coulthart. The rest are drivers desperate to continue there climb son the car owner has the final say. If a driver takes $500,000 and $100,000 per point then that can become the norm.

Yes if you win a WC you can demand more than a person who struggles to gain a point.

[DexDexter]

So using Al Gore's logic if you make $250,000 for 4 years then you are a millionaire. How about $25,000 for 40 years.
Yes all F-1 drivers make around $1,000,000 but that does not make them millionaires.
Justin Wilson is? He drove F-1. Yet a JPM can make a base around $750,000 and end up doubling up what he made in one season with McLaren.
May F-1 drivers price themselves out of the sport like Jacques Villenueve, others want to continue to drive, Coulthart. The rest are drivers desperate to continue there climb son the car owner has the final say. If a driver takes $500,000 and $100,000 per point then that can become the norm.

Yes if you win a WC you can demand more than a person who struggles to gain a point.

Who is Al Gore? I think you should read about F1 a little more before putting out comments like above. You obviously don't have any idea of the status of the sport in the world. Yes F1 drivers are all millionaires, in euros, and in dollars even more so. According to F1 racing March 2007 the top 10 drivers salaries were:


1. Kimi Raikkonen, Ferrari, US$51 million
2: Ralf Schumacher, Toyota, US$25 million.
3: Fernando Alonso, McLaren, US$22 million.
4: Jenson Button, Honda, US$18 million.
5: Rubens Barrichello, Honda, US$12 million.
6: Jarno Trulli, Toyota, US$10 million.
7: Felipe Massa, Ferrari, US$8 million.
8: Giancarlo Fisichella, Renault, US$7 million.
9: Mark Webber, Red Bull, US$5 million.
10. Takuma Sato, Super Aguri, US$4.5 million.

[tbyars]

Who is Al Gore? I think you should read about F1 a little more before putting out comments like above. You obviously don't have any idea of the status of the sport in the world. Yes F1 drivers are all millionaires, in euros, and in dollars even more so. According to F1 racing March 2007 the top 10 drivers salaries were:


1. Kimi Raikkonen, Ferrari, US$51 million
2: Ralf Schumacher, Toyota, US$25 million.
3: Fernando Alonso, McLaren, US$22 million.
4: Jenson Button, Honda, US$18 million.
5: Rubens Barrichello, Honda, US$12 million.
6: Jarno Trulli, Toyota, US$10 million.
7: Felipe Massa, Ferrari, US$8 million.
8: Giancarlo Fisichella, Renault, US$7 million.
9: Mark Webber, Red Bull, US$5 million.
10. Takuma Sato, Super Aguri, US$4.5 million.

Two things come to mind here.

First, there are, by my count, about 23 more drivers in F1 (including test drivers). Are they all paid over one million?

Second, Waldo is right, IMO. It takes more than having a $1M salary to be considered a millionaire. If your salary is $1M a year and your lifestyle takes $999,999 to support, then you're not going to be a millionaire. YMMV.

[DexDexter]

Two things come to mind here.

First, there are, by my count, about 23 more drivers in F1 (including test drivers). Are they all paid over one million?

Second, Waldo is right, IMO. It takes more than having a $1M salary to be considered a millionaire. If your salary is $1M a year and your lifestyle takes $999,999 to support, then you're not going to be a millionaire. YMMV.

The test drivers are a different thing, I don't consider them F1 drivers.... Anyway, based on what I have read here , It seems that people here (Americans) fail to grasp how much money there is in F1, and how big it really is outside their world.

[tbyars]

The test drivers are a different thing, I don't consider them F1 drivers.... Anyway, based on what I have read here , It seems that people here (Americans) fail to grasp how much money there is in F1, and how big it really is outside their world.

I disagree. I think most American racing fans understand very well how much money there is in F1.

However, you made a very specific statement about all F1 drivers being millionaires. I think that is the statement some of us are disputing.

I would guess - and it's just a guess - that there are more actual millionaire drivers in NASCAR than there are in F1, but I'll also be the first to admit that is not really an apples to apples comparison.

[nigelred5]

And Montoya hasn't exactly dominated NASCAR.

Well, to be fair, in the last couple years, no one outside of the Hendrick or Gibbs team dominates Nascar, especially in a Dodge. Not really any different than in F1 if you are outside of the McLaren and Ferrari camps.

[nigelred5]

EVERY single driver in F1 is a millionaire.

Until his father re-negotiated his contract mid way through last year, Lewis Hamilton was FAR from a millionaire on the salary he was being paid, as are most second and third drivers on the grid. See how much a second driver for Williams is actually paid. How many ride buyers ate there actually on the grid. That being said, with the money available in F1, being paid in excess of $1m is hardly indicative of the talent at hand. Access to the money to be there in the first place isthe real story. does anyone anywhere outside of the Shumacher household believe Ralf was worth anywhere near the salary he was paid?

Spoiled rich kids born with the proverbial silver spoon don't count. In that respect, you may be correct.

[!!WALDO!!]

The test drivers are a different thing, I don't consider them F1 drivers.... Anyway, based on what I have read here , It seems that people here (Americans) fail to grasp how much money there is in F1, and how big it really is outside their world.

I think you fail to realize how much money is in NASCAR too. I maybe wrong but every driver in the top 35 has made around $1,000,000 so far. 25 to 40% of that goes to the driver on top of base salary. So for 5 out of 36 so do a little math. Where is that number going. $7,000,000 so $500,000 base salary is $3,300,000 with Nationwide money, point fund and bonus puts that guy at $4,000,000. How many F-1 drivers get $4,000,000 to finish 35th in the points?
Now a Jimmy Johnson won over $10,000,000 plus a base at $7,500,000 puts him over $10,000,000 in personal salary and it has gone up. He does nothing this year he will make over $12,000,000. There is money that Al Gore wants to take.

[indycool]

WALDO, that is TEAM money, but your point is still well-taken. There are a lot of bucks in NASCAR spread over a much wider area than F1.

[Jag_Warrior]

Two things come to mind here.

Second, Waldo is right, IMO. It takes more than having a $1M salary to be considered a millionaire. If your salary is $1M a year and your lifestyle takes $999,999 to support, then you're not going to be a millionaire. YMMV.

Exactly. People are mixing up an income statement item with a balance sheet item.

Mike Tyson makes well in excess of $1 million every time he stumbles in the ring and bites someone on the ear. But between ex-wives, baby-mamas, the IRS and bank liens, I doubt that he goes back to being a millionaire anytime before he dies.

As for millionaires, King Hiro was/is a millionaire, but what does that mean? I'd be willing to bet my next paycheck that Milka Duno is a millionaire. But again, what does that mean? Being a millionaire might just mean that you have the means to buy yourself a ride, because you don't have the talent to get one by any other means. These are the people who have contributed to the current "suckage" in AOWR. Thankfully NASCAR and F1 haven't (yet) been totally overrun by the scourge. While in sports car racing, their time behind the wheel tends to be a token.

[!!WALDO!!]

WALDO, that is TEAM money, but your point is still well-taken. There are a lot of bucks in NASCAR spread over a much wider area than F1.

NASCAR is the only series that the driver gets the checks then pays out what is due based on contracts. Yes it is TEAM money but paid to the driver.

[indycool]

Nope. Paid to the entrant. Entrant pays the team and driver.

[nanders]

EVERY single driver in F1 is a millionaire.


Who is Al Gore? I think you should read about F1 a little more before putting out comments like above. You obviously don't have any idea of the status of the sport in the world. Yes F1 drivers are all millionaires, in euros, and in dollars even more so. According to F1 racing March 2007 the top 10 drivers salaries were:


1. Kimi Raikkonen, Ferrari, US$51 million
2: Ralf Schumacher, Toyota, US$25 million.
3: Fernando Alonso, McLaren, US$22 million.
4: Jenson Button, Honda, US$18 million.
5: Rubens Barrichello, Honda, US$12 million.
6: Jarno Trulli, Toyota, US$10 million.
7: Felipe Massa, Ferrari, US$8 million.
8: Giancarlo Fisichella, Renault, US$7 million.
9: Mark Webber, Red Bull, US$5 million.
10. Takuma Sato, Super Aguri, US$4.5 million.

OK that's 10 of the "every single" ... do you have linkage or more information?

[nanders]

The test drivers are a different thing, I don't consider them F1 drivers.... Anyway, based on what I have read here , It seems that people here (Americans) fail to grasp how much money there is in F1, and how big it really is outside their world.

Yes Dex, Americans are a bunch of backazzed country **cks that can't think their way out of a paper bag. And if we didn't live in the "new world" we'd probably think the world was flat too. However, if you are making your assumption on what American "fail to grasp" from your cozy little chair in Europe while reading a post from one person, it's called "prejudice."

In America people who demonstrate prejudice at your level are usually social outcast, or at the very least "makes friends poorly." Some Americans look at others who demonstrate a broad sweeping "prejudice," demonstrated by statements like "(Americans) fail to grasp," as narrow minded with ignorance of your own narrow mindedness.

And then just to give your statement the proper amount of Euro babble you laced it with a tone of arrogance.

So I'm thinking if you were trying to get off on the right foot, with this group, you are failing. When you come on with this "tone," your message gets lost in your obvious distaste for us Americans.

Possibly you could retreat to the F1 forum where you can dazzle that group with your mental superiority.

[nigelred5]

To be honest, most Europeans fail to realize how irrelevent anything they do is to most Americans. They have no concept how large this country is or how little the average American cares about them or anything they think. I don't count myself as one with that outlook or viewpoint, but it's the truth. If they don't like Americans, then why are they following an American sport?

[!!WALDO!!]

Nope. Paid to the entrant. Entrant pays the team and driver.

Not in NASCAR. Check it out. They make a big deal evey year about that.

[indycool]

Ask any NASCAR race team, Waldo. Yes, ALL sanctioning bodies show it as driver earnings and talk about it as such. But drivers are on all kinds of deals with their teams in NASCAR as well as any other series.....retainers, percentages, combinations of those, performance bonuses and the like. Those are all negotiated with the race team to get the ride. And the race team pays them based on what bargain they struck, out of purses and sponsorship money and the like. It is sheer folly to think Jeff Gordon gets a purse check from NASCAR and gives team owner Rick Hendrick his "cut" out of it.

[!!WALDO!!]

Ask any NASCAR race team, Waldo. Yes, ALL sanctioning bodies show it as driver earnings and talk about it as such. But drivers are on all kinds of deals with their teams in NASCAR as well as any other series.....retainers, percentages, combinations of those, performance bonuses and the like. Those are all negotiated with the race team to get the ride. And the race team pays them based on what bargain they struck, out of purses and sponsorship money and the like. It is sheer folly to think Jeff Gordon gets a purse check from NASCAR and gives team owner Rick Hendrick his "cut" out of it.

Jeff Gordon talked about it. He gets the check and then cuts checks on Monday to the team and such based on the contract. He said it on Wind Tunnel a couple years ago.
EVERY YEAR they discuss this on all the pre race deals of the drivers getting paid and spending their Mondays writing checks.

Sorry if you don't believe it but send off an email to NASCAR and they will verify it.

[JSH]

Geez you guys talk alot of BS....

Regarding the point of this thread. The answer should be "Who gives a f!@# if anyone in Indycar makes it to F1".

Indycar needs to worry about it's own future and build up it's own profile and that of it's drivers. Indycar shouldn't be trying to draw comparisons between itself and F1... or any other series.

It'll never get more sponsorship money or TV money or fans by protraying the image of a "Yet-Another-F1-feeder-series".

[indycool]

WALDO, you send the email to NASCAR. I don't need to. I've seen NASCAR entry blanks and I've seen NASCAR checks.

And JSH, you're right. I don't give a hoot if ANY of them go to F1.

[!!WALDO!!]

WALDO, you send the email to NASCAR. I don't need to. I've seen NASCAR entry blanks and I've seen NASCAR checks.

And JSH, you're right. I don't give a hoot if ANY of them go to F1.

As have I and even discussed reasoning with drivers. It has been this way for years as one driver told me going back to the early 1960's. He heard that Bill France Sr. had an idea that if drivers got paid and then had to pay out money for their "team" and thery were able to grasp the concept, then many of these drivers could become successful owners in the future. Has any form of racing turned more of its drivers into owners than NASCAR? Even today's crop has Harvick owning NNS and NCTS teams, others own teams in USAC and Hooter's. So even though you "have seen entries and checks" I wrote about this 20 and 10 years ago and who believes Jeff Gordon anyways, that was the same interview which he told that CART teams wanted FORD to pay them for Jeffy's ride. We all know that was a lie too.

I have paid out much money to the entrant over the years but not to many of those drivers elected to move into the car owner status.

So this is on topic as even though no ICS will move to F-1 we do need these guys to step up to becoming Car Owners in the future otherwise this sport is in danger of disappearing in to the pages of history.

[indycool]

WALDO, I have respected your knowledge in some of your posts, but you are just incredibly inaccurate. Back in the '60s and '70s, many drivers owned their own cars (or put the race team in their wife's name), therefore, of course the check went to them .....everyone from Richard Petty to Coo Coo Marlin to Bill Champion to Richard Childress. Again, just call up a NASCAR team and ask 'em.

I can't imagine you even give a serious thought that the driver makes the deals with the crew chief and the team members and engine shop guys and builds the huge race shop complexes around Charlotte and the driver runs the team's accounting operation.

What happens when a driver gets fired?

[weeflyonthewall]

WALDO, that is TEAM money, but your point is still well-taken. There are a lot of bucks in NASCAR spread over a much wider area than F1.

Isn't the celebrity factor driving up the cost of NASCAR racing? More and more sponsors are having difficulty justifying the expense.

[indycool]

Yep. Also the value. And also the cost of parts and gimmicks to go fast.

[ShiftingGears]

I don't give a hoot if ANY of them go to F1.


IndyCar needs to address this problem. They need drivers with the Moore/Zanardi factor.

[indycool]

What is the "Moore-Zanardi factor?" Yes, both were star quality people and drivers.

[ShiftingGears]

What is the "Moore-Zanardi factor?" Yes, both were star quality people and drivers.

...Which leads to greater marketability for the series, as the casual fans have a greater interest in X driver doing well.

I suppose driver marketability is a bit of a chicken vs egg argument, but promoting Danica when she doesn't have star looks, personality or driving talent wasn't their best idea.

[indycool]

Oh, I don't know....in their day, Zanardi was much like Castroneves is today. For younger ones, there's Marco and Graham Rahal. And Danica certainly isn't a bad one to promote. There's interest in her.

[nigelred5]

What is the "Moore-Zanardi factor?" Yes, both were star quality people and drivers.

Promoting drivers for their personality and driving skills, rather than their appearance in a bikini or dance shoes perhaps.?

Problem is, they need to start promoting both. Maybe now the series can concentrate on promoting the series rather than proving they are the better open wheel series they will.

[garyshell]

Promoting drivers for their personality and driving skills, rather than their appearance in a bikini or dance shoes perhaps.?

Problem is, they need to start promoting both. Maybe now the series can concentrate on promoting the series rather than proving they are the better open wheel series they will.


On the personailty front, I think you have it correct in regards to Mrs. Bikini. But in regards to Mr. Dancin' Shoes, how much MORE personality do you want? My wife was/is a big fan of the DWTS show, so I saw him every week. You could not have asked for a better ambassador for the sport than Helio. Once the season starts, the ICS/IRL needs to do a few commercials in the DWTS time slot so they can capitalize on the interest he generated.

Gary

P.S. I notice Mrs. Bikini is gonna be on Oprah's new show this Sunday. Let's see if she can match Mr. Dancin' Shoes for the smile and warm fuzzy factor.

[jimispeed]

Oh, I don't know....in their day, Zanardi was much like Castroneves is today.


Helio isn't nearly as aggressive as Zanardi was in open wheel. Zanardi has a big set of them racing jewels!!

[indycool]

Gary, we're back to agreein'. Of the 44 photos of Danica at SI.com in the swimsuit deal, only one of them has her smiling and that one looks very pretty. But only ONE.

That said, the "bikini and dance shoes" are different, off-track factors that have called a great deal of attention to the sport.

As far as Helio being as aggressive as Zanardi, I'd call that one a draw. Helio sticks his nose in as much as anybody when it comes to wheel-to-wheel stuff and you don't win two Indianapolis 500s by being a shrinking violet.

[SarahFan]

Gary, we're back to agreein'. Of the 44 photos of Danica at SI.com in the swimsuit deal, only one of them has her smiling and that one looks very pretty. But only ONE.

That said, the "bikini and dance shoes" are different, off-track factors that have called a great deal of attention to the sport.

As far as Helio being as aggressive as Zanardi, I'd call that one a draw. Helio sticks his nose in as much as anybody when it comes to wheel-to-wheel stuff and you don't win two Indianapolis 500s by being a shrinking violet.

i suggest you go back on watch some CART races from the mid to late 90's .....

[garyshell]

far as Helio being as aggressive as Zanardi, I'd call that one a draw. Helio sticks his nose in as much as anybody when it comes to wheel-to-wheel stuff and you don't win two Indianapolis 500s by being a shrinking violet.


i suggest you go back on watch some CART races from the mid to late 90's .....


Yeah, Ken, I have to agree. While Helio is no shrinking violet, he is by no means on the same page as Alex was.

Gary

[indycool]

I've seen those races.....and I've seen Helio at places like Texas......not much difference there. Alex invented the victory spin, Helio invented climbing the fence. Both were copied by NASCAR drivers, as a matter of fact.

[SarahFan]

Yeah, Ken, I have to agree. While Helio is no shrinking violet, he is by no means on the same page as Alex was.

Gary

yep....

I'm not doggin Helio...and to be honest I was never a fan of Zanardi during his CART days (although he is one of my heros since his accident)...he was in fact one of the drivers I cheered against...

and Helio is a heck of a racecar driver...

but as aggressive as Zanardi?....not by even half!

[SarahFan]

I've seen those races.....and I've seen Helio at places like Texas......not much difference there. Alex invented the victory spin, Helio invented climbing the fence. Both were copied by NASCAR drivers, as a matter of fact.


I suspect our definition of 'aggressive' is different...

[indycool]

Probably so, Ken......different styles, to be sure. And Gary, no question Zanardi was/is a great statesman for the sport and coming back after that horrible accident the way he did to compete again was spectacular.

[garyshell]

IC,

When I said they were not on the same page, I was thinking only about their relative on-track styles. I wasn't even thinking about their off track personas. Except for the accident and recovery, to be honest, I would have to rate the two of them as pretty equal in terms of their "statesmanship". They both do a bang up job (no pun intended) in front of a camera or throng of fans.

Gary

[indycool]

Understand, Gary....as I said, think the styles were/are different and maybe I'm thinking of aggressive as the wrong term. Zanardi was pretty much aggressive all the time, like Tracy or Michael Andretti or Mario. Helio is aggressive at the end of races and/or in traffic on ovals. And I agree....both are great for our sport.

[SarahFan]

and i was only referring the 'Aggressiveness' on track

personnally I have always felt "the Pass" was bunk....and set the tone for the next couple of seasons....where Zanardi ran rampant...he made some questionable passes IMO....and played on his reputation...CART allowed him some leway and IMO encouraged it because he WAS good for the sport....but Ultimatly he was repremanded at a canadien race (can't rememberif it was Vancouver or Toronto)

we have all seen Helio go 'wheel to wheel'...and run fast and smooth.....but 'aggressive'?...naw, not like Zanardi did during his Championship seasons

[garyshell]

Understand, Gary....as I said, think the styles were/are different and maybe I'm thinking of aggressive as the wrong term. Zanardi was pretty much aggressive all the time, like Tracy or Michael Andretti or Mario. Helio is aggressive at the end of races and/or in traffic on ovals. And I agree....both are great for our sport.


Ah there you go, agreeing again. Jeesh.... :s mokin:

Gary

[indycool]

Ken, maybe you're right and I didn't watch Zanardi closely enough....still wish we'd gotten to see him run Indy.....but I just didn't put him in an aggressive class with a Tracy or Mario.

[garyshell]

Ken, maybe you're right and I didn't watch Zanardi closely enough....still wish we'd gotten to see him run Indy.....but I just didn't put him in an aggressive class with a Tracy or Mario.


You should. All cut from the same cloth.

Gary

[SarahFan]

You should. All cut from the same cloth.

Gary

ditto

[SarahFan]

and Moore....

anyone else remember him 'Shutting the door' going into turn 1 at Rio?

[indycool]

Yes, I DO remember that one.....and I'll defer to you guys because you obviously watched Zanardi closer than I did.

[ezhop7]

If the recent trend is any indication I do not believe that Indycar drivers are striving to get to F1. If anything they will try to move up to NASCAR. Even, F1 drivers are intrigued by NASCAR not the other way around. Formula One is a place where only 2 teams have any shot at winninig the races are pretty much parades with little passing and are really boring to watch. They aren't the greatest drivers in the world because they only race on one type of course...road courses. The one street race circuit they have allows for very little passing because the width of Monaco is so narrow. As much as I hate to say it NASCAR is where most driver want to race read the post from Aussie V8, F1 champions in NASCAR and Indy Champions in NASCAR. I lose a lot of respect for F1 in the way that it treated the American fans at Indy ...who cares about thef-1 parade!

[garyshell]

Formula One is a place where only 2 teams have any shot at winninig the races


Make that 3 teams this year the BMW Sauber team is looking pretty strong.

Gary

[nanders]

and i was only referring the 'Aggressiveness' on track

personnally I have always felt "the Pass" was bunk....and set the tone for the next couple of seasons....where Zanardi ran rampant...he made some questionable passes IMO....and played on his reputation...CART allowed him some leway and IMO encouraged it because he WAS good for the sport....but Ultimatly he was repremanded at a canadien race (can't rememberif it was Vancouver or Toronto)

we have all seen Helio go 'wheel to wheel'...and run fast and smooth.....but 'aggressive'?...naw, not like Zanardi did during his Championship seasons

And don't forget Zanardi popularized NASCAR's biggest way to celebrate. The dough-nut !!!!

[nanders]

Ken, maybe you're right and I didn't watch Zanardi closely enough....still wish we'd gotten to see him run Indy.....but I just didn't put him in an aggressive class with a Tracy or Mario.

Michael always wanted to know where Zanardi was at.

[Spiderman]

If the recent trend is any indication I do not believe that Indycar drivers are striving to get to F1. If anything they will try to move up to NASCAR. Even, F1 drivers are intrigued by NASCAR not the other way around. Formula One is a place where only 2 teams have any shot at winninig the races are pretty much parades with little passing and are really boring to watch. They aren't the greatest drivers in the world because they only race on one type of course...road courses. The one street race circuit they have allows for very little passing because the width of Monaco is so narrow. As much as I hate to say it NASCAR is where most driver want to race read the post from Aussie V8, F1 champions in NASCAR and Indy Champions in NASCAR. I lose a lot of respect for F1 in the way that it treated the American fans at Indy ...who cares about thef-1 parade!
First: Two formula one drivers moved to NASCAR when their formula one adventure was over, Neither Villeneuve nor Montoya had any chance to get a competetive car in f1 anymore...

You can't say, they aren't the greatest drivers because of the tracks and the number of teams winning races or the less passing... Thats a joke, because it's not the driver's fault.
Racing is a a business. The best teams want the best drivers. Drivers want to drive the most competetive car and want to earn money. So the best drivers of the world will always be there where the money is. For U.S-Americans that's NASCAR for the rest of the world it's formula one.
By the way: You can't ignore the reputation a formula one world championship has.
Do you think drivers like Kanaan, Castroneves, Dixon, Briscoe, Wheldon an so on would be in ICS if they had a chance of driving in f1? They all went to america because the doors in europe were closed. There were times, when Indy was the second choice. But these times are over. If they can't race f1 anymore, they look for NASCAR, DTM, Sportscars before they think about Indy. That's the way it is!

[LuigiStone]

First: Two formula one drivers moved to NASCAR when their formula one adventure was over, Neither Villeneuve nor Montoya had any chance to get a competetive car in f1 anymore...

You can't say, they aren't the greatest drivers because of the tracks and the number of teams winning races or the less passing... Thats a joke, because it's not the driver's fault.
Racing is a a business. The best teams want the best drivers. Drivers want to drive the most competetive car and want to earn money. So the best drivers of the world will always be there where the money is. For U.S-Americans that's NASCAR for the rest of the world it's formula one.
By the way: You can't ignore the reputation a formula one world championship has.
Do you think drivers like Kanaan, Castroneves, Dixon, Briscoe, Wheldon an so on would be in ICS if they had a chance of driving in f1? They all went to america because the doors in europe were closed. There were times, when Indy was the second choice. But these times are over. If they can't race f1 anymore, they look for NASCAR, DTM, Sportscars before they think about Indy. That's the way it is!

Exactly. At least 90% of young racers from all over the world dream of driving an F1 car. The rest are young Americans hoping to be the next Dale Earnhardt or Jeff Gordon.

[LuigiStone]

If the recent trend is any indication I do not believe that Indycar drivers are striving to get to F1. If anything they will try to move up to NASCAR. Even, F1 drivers are intrigued by NASCAR not the other way around. Formula One is a place where only 2 teams have any shot at winninig the races are pretty much parades with little passing and are really boring to watch. They aren't the greatest drivers in the world because they only race on one type of course...road courses. The one street race circuit they have allows for very little passing because the width of Monaco is so narrow. As much as I hate to say it NASCAR is where most driver want to race read the post from Aussie V8, F1 champions in NASCAR and Indy Champions in NASCAR. I lose a lot of respect for F1 in the way that it treated the American fans at Indy ...who cares about thef-1 parade!

Boy, you are so wrong.

[ezhop7]

LuguiStone and Spiderman go ask Montoya and Speed why they did not stay in F-1 and jacque could have stay in F-1 too. Seems to me that both Speed and Montoya still have lots of drive left in the tank. Maybe the scene in europe is just to much to take if you don't run with Ferrari or Mclaren, hmm you'll be a backmarker. Seems to me that you answered your question about Kaanan and Wheldon...they be in NASCAR before the high class F1 owners hire either of them. The best drivers are not in F1...most of the rides beside the top 4 teams are all money bought rides. Sato, Force India, Jensen Button, Mark Webber, and the rest I can't even pronounce are not the best driver in the world.

[LuigiStone]

OK, live in denial all you want.

[indycool]

Emerson Fittipaldi came out of retirement after an F1 career and went Indy car racing, won two Indianapolis 500s, and enjoyed himself a lot more than he did in F1. He excelled in both. So did Mansell. EVERYONE who has come out of F1 to Indy cars has not done this. Mario Andretti came out of sprint cars to win an F1 title. But everyone who has gone from Indy cars to F1 has not done well, either (or had competitive rides, I might add). There is no way to categorize EITHER as the BEST drivers because of the series they happen to be in......or Steve Kinser or John Force or Jeff Gordon, for that matter.

[Spiderman]

LuguiStone and Spiderman go ask Montoya and Speed why they did not stay in F-1 and jacque could have stay in F-1 too. Seems to me that both Speed and Montoya still have lots of drive left in the tank. Maybe the scene in europe is just to much to take if you don't run with Ferrari or Mclaren, hmm you'll be a backmarker. Seems to me that you answered your question about Kaanan and Wheldon...they be in NASCAR before the high class F1 owners hire either of them. The best drivers are not in F1...most of the rides beside the top 4 teams are all money bought rides. Sato, Force India, Jensen Button, Mark Webber, and the rest I can't even pronounce are not the best driver in the world.
Speed and Villeneuve (in the case of villeneuve it's hard to say) were fired, nobody wanted them anymore. Montoya was sure out of McLaren. Maybe he could heve been drive for a backmaker-team, but Montoya doesn't want to lose...
Most of f1 backmakers have won championships in other forms of racing before, as most the front runners did.
There a realy good racers in f1.

The question to you: Why drivers woho couldn't get a ride in f1 don't go to IndyCars, but to NASCAR, Sportscars, DTM and so on...
Why IndyChamps are leaving for NASCAR?

Ind if you couldn't pronounce the names that might have something to do with your nationalitiy. English speaking people are a little lazy and arrogant when it comes to foreign languages...

[Spiderman]

Emerson Fittipaldi came out of retirement after an F1 career and went Indy car racing, won two Indianapolis 500s, and enjoyed himself a lot more than he did in F1. He excelled in both. So did Mansell. EVERYONE who has come out of F1 to Indy cars has not done this. Mario Andretti came out of sprint cars to win an F1 title. But everyone who has gone from Indy cars to F1 has not done well, either (or had competitive rides, I might add). There is no way to categorize EITHER as the BEST drivers because of the series they happen to be in......or Steve Kinser or John Force or Jeff Gordon, for that matter.

I don't remember someone who did better in f1 than in IndyCars... The other way around, i know a lot of drivers...

But everyone who has gone from Indy cars to F1 has not done well, either (or had competitive rides, I might add)

Having a competitive car is not relevant.

Ayrton Senna, Alain Prost, Michael Schumacher, Kimi Raikkonen and Fernando Alonso did not have competitive machinery when they made their debuts in F1 with little or no experience of cars of a similar performance level. Kimi came straight from Formula Renault, which isn't even on the same level as Barber-Dodge, into the Sauber F1 team

What they, and other F1 big-names have done, is make an impression in a car that should have prevented them from doing so.

As an example, it wasn't a lack of a 'competitive' car that got Zanardi the boot from Williams...it was being crap compared to Ralf Schumacher in the same car that got him the boot. Zero points in a Williams is pathetic.

The lack of a competitive car is a poor excuse for not performing and has no place in Formula One.

[indycool]

Well, I've never seen anyone come close to winning an F1 race in a lousy car.

[Spiderman]

Well, I've never seen anyone come close to winning an F1 race in a lousy car.
In the lousy car zanardi scored 0 points with, Ralf Schumacher did some podiums.
In the lousy car andretti failed, Senna won 5 races...

And in the end: Damon Hill nearly won the 1997 hungarian grand prix in an arrows...
Or Jenson Button when he won 2006 in hungary with the Honda.

[JSH]

Well, I've never seen anyone come close to winning an F1 race in a lousy car.

It wasn't suggested they WON in a lousy car, only that they impressed enough to get a drive in a decent one...

But now that you mention it...

- 1998 Belgian GP : Damon Hill won in a Jordan. Jordan was NEVER a top team, they were midfielders at best.

[Spiderman]

It wasn't suggested they WON in a lousy car, only that they impressed enough to get a drive in a decent one...

But now that you mention it...

- 1998 Belgian GP : Damon Hill won in a Jordan. Jordan was NEVER a top team, they were midfielders at best.

1999, when Herbert won in a stewart at the nurburgring
or 2003 fisichellas victory in interlagos in a jordan

[ezhop7]

My point is how can someone say that F1 drivers are the best in the world when they do not race on all of the different type of pavement circuits. Michael Schumacher is a great driver but how good would he be on a short oval the same said for Jeff Gordon in a F1 car at Monaco. It is like comparing Apples and Oranges. The only drivers who you really can say are truly great are Mario(Won in F1, Indy and Daytona), and AJ Foyt (LeMans, Indy and Daytona). Basically until F1 drivers of today race on all of the different type of pavement circuits (super speedways, short ovals, road and street courses). I will not considered them the Worlds Greatest Drivers! They are great at road course racing but are not the World's Greatest drivers.
I wish Indy had a dirt 1/2 track in the series how about Knoxville. But it ain't happening!!!

[ShiftingGears]

My point is how can someone say that F1 drivers are the best in the world when they do not race on all of the different type of pavement circuits. Michael Schumacher is a great driver but how good would he be on a short oval the same said for Jeff Gordon in a F1 car at Monaco. It is like comparing Apples and Oranges. The only drivers who you really can say are truly great are Mario(Won in F1, Indy and Daytona), and AJ Foyt (LeMans, Indy and Daytona). Basically until F1 drivers of today race on all of the different type of pavement circuits (super speedways, short ovals, road and street courses). I will not considered them the Worlds Greatest Drivers! They are great at road course racing but are not the World's Greatest drivers.
I wish Indy had a dirt 1/2 track in the series how about Knoxville. But it ain't happening!!!

Well, with what you're saying...

Jim Clark is the greatest driver ever!

And I wouldn't disagree!

[indycool]

Yes, ezhop7, and you can throw in drag racing, motorcycles, dirt, pavement, sprinters, midgets, stock cars, etc., etc., etc.

Oh, and ug, A.J. Foyt will tell you that he feels Jimmy Clark was the best driver he ever faced.

[ShiftingGears]

Oh, and ug, A.J. Foyt will tell you that he feels Jimmy Clark was the best driver he ever faced.

As many other drivers did. A legendary talent. IndyCars could sure do with a driver as obscenely talented, versatile and as kind as Jim Clark.

[Placid]

If it goes well (well it is very premature) in 2008. I hope AJ4 gets a test invitation from Honda and Ross Braun.

[ShiftingGears]

If it goes well (well it is very premature) in 2008. I hope AJ4 gets a test invitation from Honda and Ross Braun.

I hope for his and IndyCars sake it'll be more impressive than Marco's test.

[pits4me]

I've always thought Rally Drivers could throw a car around the track.
Here's Tarmac king Gilles Panizzi being put to the test.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kaITGT8_pr4&NR=1

This could be a great idea for Laguna Seca. A true Race of Champions.