What makes a great driver?

[!!WALDO!!]

Over the years I have had discussions with those who did race Open Wheel cars from the 1920s, 1930s, 1940s, 1950s, 1960s, 1970s, 1980s and 1990s. I realize that actually interviewing these people count very little over having an opinion but there was consensus on several topics of greatness. So here are some, since racing has changed then maybe there are other intangibles that currently exist.

1. Car Control: As everyone said “Everyone has that otherwise they would be driving only on the streets.” What the consensus was the ability to go from “manhandling to milking a mouse” and sometimes in the same race. A great driver must be able to drive a race car and do well under all conditions. On the dirt from Heavy to Dusty, on pavement from virgin to heavy rubber with an oil topping to a street track going from concrete to asphalt to a marble covered surface. This can give you lap time consistency with time around a hundredth difference lap after lap. (35.980-35.990)
All drivers should be able to handle this but to excel in it puts them into a different classification. Car control has another function as versatility of being to drive anything from a midget to a stock car. Since we are looking at Indy Car then I must stay in those parameters.

2. Vision: Not the ability to see, although imperative but the ability to see way in advance of the car getting there. Most drivers on the streets drive past the hood whereas the truly greats are a corner and a straight ahead of his/her car. When I taught Instrument flying the outstanding pilots were those that were always getting ahead of the airplane. What does that have to do with anything? Both Instrument flying and Auto Racing are a matter of survival. If a person can’t stay ahead of the machine then trouble can overcome you in a blink of an eye and then starts to compound that quick and disaster follows quickly. So vision is another function of greatness.

3. Concentration: The ability to “focus” is very important and very few have had that over the years. Unlike a golfer who can replay a round of golf, a driver should not be able to tell you what happened 2 laps prior. This does tie in to Vision as you are so ahead of the car what is behind is forgotten. One old driver told me “It is a waste of concentration to remember something on lap 28 when you have 172 more laps to do. The immediate future is all that is important to concentrate on.” I have seen drivers in “the mode” and have their car fail and they are totally surprised although 35,000 knew the car was going south. If you are concentrating you do not make mistakes. Many believe that Bill Vukovich was the Speedway’s greatest. Yet when asked about the Speedway he said, “You never make a right turn here as they will take you home in a box.” A very true statement but while leading in 1955, a wreck occurs ahead of him, his vision failed him, his concentration failed him as he elected to make a right turn. A truly great would have gone left, spun out in the infield and lived to race another day.

4. Desire: This emotion can get in the way of Car Control, Vision and Concentration as it has a tendency to mask those things. Many drivers have more desire than ability. Eddie Sachs was a very good example. Outstanding driver totally driven by desire with limited ability but that did not keep him out of victory lane. It just made his Champ Car wins even more interesting as here was “a fan” with desire enough to win. Other drivers put Desire with Car Control, Vision and Concentration. In 1961 the 500 came down to “a fan with desire” against a “driver with Desire with Car Control, Vision and Concentration.” Who won? The latter did.
Desire always showed up in those that were truly great as they could drive from the rear to win the race but everything had to click. If out the night before drinking then one or two things became affected and the great driver becomes nothing that day. Also desire cannot blind a driver from the ultimate goal, winning and winning the championship. If it came to “scoring points” or “winning” and the car was starting to fail, it came down to the “points”. So desire had to float as it is the only emotion a driver should have.

5. The ability to drive traffic: This ties back into the “vision” topic but I have seen drivers with the first 4 things that could not get through traffic at all. If you are a poor qualifier you must be able to drive to the front. A driver like Foyt would come from 14th to 1st in 25 laps and lead the rest then lap the field while a driver like Joe Leonard, a two time National Champion would take off and lead and once into lapped traffic would lose the lead and come in 2nd or 3rd. In my day, a driver could be leading and come across two drivers battling for 12th and lapping the 17th place car. The leader had to get through that with out wrecking, giving up the lead to that car 7 car lengths back or maybe gaining 7 more lengths by time to move and bottling up the guy behind. I always watch the “traffic masters” as they are using all their talents to move successfully through it. More races have been won by the “masters” and races have been lost by those that aren’t. Again this was a consensus of most drivers, some did not see it as they were actually not that good in traffic.

6. The ability to carry a car: This is mine from when I was 14 years old. When I said it, the old driver said; “You can’t win if you can’t finish.” This is one of the most important aspects of racing. Mario is a good example. In 1968 he went through his car in 2 laps and his 1967 car that was started by Larry Dickson just past 50 miles. If he had carried that car and finished 8 laps down he would have finished 12th, he would have gotten 50 points and won the title by 37 points. Instead he got 2nd in the points 13 behind with over 4,000 points earned.
Yet in 1969 he carried the Brawner Hawk III to win the 500 in his best carrying of a car ever. If he had remembered that in 1987 he would have had another 500 win.
Many drivers could take a car from 18th to 5th now that is carrying a car and using all the talents 1-5. The great ones carry the car to 3rd and he puts the car in position to win.
In today’s NASCAR world you hear; “Well I had a 20th place car and we ended up 6th.” Now in that world, the team, pit work and strategy helped but the driver still had to make it happen. Today the best car carrier is Jeff Gordon, this year Kasey Kahne has been very good at it. In my life time Foyt, in some of the drivers they talked of DePalma, Horn, Mays, Ward and Al Unser.

So it is open to other ideas. Some that at least in Indy Car isn’t as important any is the ability to qualify. In the old days with 18 cars starting a race on dirt it was easy to miss a show, now every one starts so qualifying is not as important. So give us some other ideas of greatness.
I will not add anything more unless asked a question of.

[wedge]

The other important factor is judgement/decision-making.

A number of F1 drivers have remarked that what marks out the great from the good is their mental capacity. Most drivers are good but most of their concentration is aimed at driving flat out, close to the limit as possible whereas the greats are more naturally talented which means they have the extra mental capacity for tactics and so forth.

Desire can be a tricky and dangerous concept, especially in this day and age. Too much desire and the need to win can sometimes make a driver do questionable things on the race track - Scott Dixon's controversial parking incident at Detroit being a good example.

[SoCalPVguy]

You forgot THE.MOST.IMPORTANT.SKILL. in today's American Open Wheel Racing.
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The ability to bring a big fat check from a sponsor or rich relative to buy the ride in the first place. *LOL*

[tbyars]

I have an honest question.

Why not just ask the question, rather than providing a post that is so long I simply refuse to read it?

I'm not trying to pick a fight. I just won't read a post that long. As a result, a thread I would probably be interested in will now go unopened in future visits.

My opinion. YMMV.

[!!WALDO!!]

I have an honest question.

Why not just ask the question, rather than providing a post that is so long I simply refuse to read it?

I'm not trying to pick a fight. I just won't read a post that long. As a result, a thread I would probably be interested in will now go unopened in future visits.

My opinion. YMMV.

Ok, my info came from drivers over the last 70 years. I guess it wasn't important.

So give us some other ideas of greatness.

Short enough?


Starter lock this thread or delete it.

[SoCalPVguy]

Waldo, if I may be permitted to give you a tip, but it seems your vast experience and knowledge, when writtem on this board, comes across a a know-it-all boorishness. To wit, I don't like how you ask these massive arcane trivia posts and then post your own answers also sometimes before anyone else gets a chance. OK I get it you are smarter than all the rest of us, but you'd have more success on this board if you'd let us other dumb guys make a point very once in a while.

[garyshell]

Waldo, if I may be permitted to give you a tip, but it seems your vast experience and knowledge, when writtem on this board, comes across a a know-it-all boorishness. To wit, I don't like how you ask these massive arcane trivia posts and then post your own answers also sometimes before anyone else gets a chance. OK I get it you are smarter than all the rest of us, but you'd have more success on this board if you'd let us other dumb guys make a point very once in a while.


You are wasting your breath and keystrokes. The ignore list option is infinetely more effective.

Gary

[jarrambide]

Waldo, if I may be permitted to give you a tip, but it seems your vast experience and knowledge, when writtem on this board, comes across a a know-it-all boorishness. To wit, I don't like how you ask these massive arcane trivia posts and then post your own answers also sometimes before anyone else gets a chance. OK I get it you are smarter than all the rest of us, but you'd have more success on this board if you'd let us other dumb guys make a point very once in a while.
Knowledge and being smart are 2 different and separate things, you can be smart and knowledgeable but you can also be knowledgeable and not very bright, or you can be very smart but have a very limited knowledge of things.

[!!WALDO!!]

Waldo, if I may be permitted to give you a tip, but it seems your vast experience and knowledge, when writtem on this board, comes across a a know-it-all boorishness. To wit, I don't like how you ask these massive arcane trivia posts and then post your own answers also sometimes before anyone else gets a chance. OK I get it you are smarter than all the rest of us, but you'd have more success on this board if you'd let us other dumb guys make a point very once in a while.


I realize that actually interviewing these people count very little over having an opinion but there was consensus on several topics of greatness. So here are some, since racing has changed then maybe there are other intangibles that currently exist.

That is why I said what I said in the second sentence. I guess talking to those that survived the sport do not count. There are plenty of other things that the modern driver is up against.

If you do not like something then I am sorry. I am tired of being insulted and even got it from the moderator in a PM.

Do what you want, you want me gone so you can be the guy, you got it. I need to spend time in racing rather than defending myself on a post that is to make people think.

I am sorry for that and it will not happen again.

[Placid]

Dedication and devotion to the sport and not be a party animal. Focus and desire are acceptable.

[beachbum]

Knowledge and being smart are 2 different and separate things, you can be smart and knowledgeable but you can also be knowledgeable and not very bright, or you can be very smart but have a very limited knowledge of things.Very well said. Then there are those who are neither smart or knowledgeable, but think they are.

Interestingly enough, I was very recently discussing the topic of greatness with someone who has competed at the top level of their racing discipline. The 6 items noted in the first post are all important, but there are a lot of racers with those attributes. You won't survive in any professional series without them. But the people who run consistently at the top have a little more. They have the mental toughness and ability to run right at their limit all day without making any mistakes. Most racers make little mistakes or don't get the most from the equipment and situation all of the time, while the champion is relentless. Others may be quicker for a short time, or have more desire, or better equipment, but that relentless drive for racing perfection is a rare commodity.

[SarahFan]

BIG BALLs and a deep rooted gene linked directly to having a competitive problem

[bblocker68]

BIG BALLs and a deep rooted gene linked directly to having a competitive problem


Ah, the Schumacher, Tiger, Jordan gene!

[Wilf]

Four posters gave their opinion of what makes a great driver.

AND

Four posters told you how to post.

What separates you from most of the other participants is that you have spent some time preparing before you submit it to the forum. It's there for all to see and comment on if they wish.

Fortunately, there are some who have read what you have written and chose to comment on it as opposed to why or how you have written. That is what a forum is all about, sharing ideas. You have shared yours and unless there is a limit on the number of charachters in a thread, it shouldn't make any difference how long your initial post is. The number of "on the topic" responses will indicate if your question was worthwhile on not.

[edv]

In the modern world, with the glare of the media, I think that an athlete may not be fully considered great anymore unless he can exploit the media, either with charisma, character or cunning. There are those, like Tiger Jordan Gretzky etc who drew admiration though raw talent and humility, and those who provoke a passionate response, like Earnhardt Sr and maybe Tony Stewart and Paul Tracy.
In all cases, understanding and utilising the media (needed now in order to become 'memorable') have become another factor in determining greatness.

[Dave Brock]

Waldo, if I may be permitted to give you a tip, but it seems your vast experience and knowledge, when writtem on this board, comes across a a know-it-all boorishness. To wit, I don't like how you ask these massive arcane trivia posts and then post your own answers also sometimes before anyone else gets a chance. OK I get it you are smarter than all the rest of us, but you'd have more success on this board if you'd let us other dumb guys make a point very once in a while.


Your point is valid, made and appreciated.

I think it all comes down to;
how you perceive the info he is attempting to put forth, is it BS, opinion or on the money?


I don't see the guy as trying to be superior, a know it all or a boor I see him as a person who has some years of experience, remembers what he paid money to see and is attempting to give away that knowledge in a way that presents a challenge to the reader pobably in an attempt to make the knowledge stick, working for an answer to a question is but one way to retain the answer over the long term.
I think the real problem most see with him is their perception of him as just another Joe on the net, never considering that IF they KNEW it was (for instance) Donald Davidson, Kent Squire or some other "name" who has familiarity & recognition & all the experience we wish we had it might be different........but then that person would be respected by some and a target for others...in essence the position you have put him in anyway.
I know of more than a few drivers who look in and post on net forums, some active and others retired, I used to know one who had retired from driving BEFORE WWII..!
Their main complaint was/is that the fan only has exposure to the sport thru the media & observation from the fan side of the track which is far from an accurate picture of the whole. And that is beside the point that fans see wht they want to see & believe what they want to believe not matter what they are told. My neighbor cannot stand Jeff Gordon and he he is a 100% Jr. fan, he refuse to believe that Jeff & Dale are civil to each other or that they get together off the track socially, because of HIS own bias to Gordon.

I have no clue as to what might motivate !!WALDO!!, I am only guessing, but I do KNOW that because he is different he seems to be targeted. I think it is far better to be entertained by someone with the data than someone that tries to maintain a BS line in a lame attempt to impress & I don't get that from !!WALDO!!, I'm just a Joe & his trivia always perplexes my memories.
Frankly, he is just another passing personality on the net to me but he does seem to be someone whose perspective is as valid and entertaining as raisins in oatmeal. If you don't like 'em and you can't get around them they realy ain't that much to whine over.
The net forums and thin skin are not the most compatible componants in a humans experience, one might consider this is a place to exercise or learn patience, it's free and painlees here.

[Dave Brock]

Four posters gave their opinion of what makes a great driver.

AND

Four posters told you how to post.

What separates you from most of the other participants is that you have spent some time preparing before you submit it to the forum. It's there for all to see and comment on if they wish.

Fortunately, there are some who have read what you have written and chose to comment on it as opposed to why or how you have written. That is what a forum is all about, sharing ideas. You have shared yours and unless there is a limit on the number of charachters in a thread, it shouldn't make any difference how long your initial post is. The number of "on the topic" responses will indicate if your question was worthwhile on not.

For me the value in someones efforts here is in the varied perspectives and just the number of responses and their validity. Staying on topic is regimented & constrictive I like to see that which is generated overall, sometimes the real value is in the digressions ! :eek:

[nanders]

I have no clue as to what might motivate !!WALDO!!, I am only guessing, but I do KNOW that because he is different he seems to be targeted.

The reason I have spoke out regarding Waldo is simple. He has a habit of talking down to people rather then talking to them. Maybe he's changed, I don't know because he's on my ignore list. But I can see he is still polarizing people. We have had allot of arguments here in the past but we have had very few people who come in here with his "I know all and you don't, let me run the facts down your throat, loser" attitude.

I'll have to admit, I'm torn because he has had some cool knowledge to share, but the way he disagrees with people, disagrees with me. He is the only person I have put on an ignore list, ever.

[garyshell]

I have no clue as to what might motivate !!WALDO!!, I am only guessing, but I do KNOW that because he is different he seems to be targeted.

That is absolutely false. It has nothing to do with his being different. It has everything to do with his treatment of others. If you go back and look at the exchanges he has with those who in any way disagree with even the smallest of little points, you will see his replies virtually drip with condescension. The holier that thou attitude contained in the "you are wrong because I was there and remember everything so how dare you question me" style of delivery wears thin after a very short while. The old adage of you can catch more flies with honey than with vinegar is lost on these exchanges.

As I said before, I started off as being really impressed with the guy and marveled at how he went out of his way to dig up some info that I didn't know about my uncle who drove in NASCAR in the 60's. Then the tables turned when I dared to disagree on some topic. At first I thought it was just me, but then the same pattern appeared repeatedly. To the point that I and others here decided to just tune him out. It's a shame too, because the guy is obviuosly very smart and does have a lot of history and knowledge to impart. It's too bad that "I'm sorry" or "I didn't mean to" don't seem to be part of the vocabulary.

Gary

[Bob Riebe]

Desire is the only thing that one must have to be a great driver.
Without it, nothing happens.

[SoCalPVguy]

I think it all comes down to how you perceive the info he is attempting to put forth, is it BS, opinion or on the money? ...


Dave my objection to the original post was that Waldo asked a legitimate question "What makes a great driver ?"

AND then he post a giant long answer to his own question, instead of waiting for responses from others, thus 'chilling' the interactive give-and-take quality of the message board process, so it came off as a know-it-all post as if he already has all the answers and doesn't care to get other opinions.

[!!WALDO!!]

has all the answers and doesn't care to get other opinions.

I see you did not read as I asked and have gotten other responses.

I AM SORRY I POSTED THIS AND I AM BREATHING THE SAME AIR AS YOU.

I WILL EXHALE RIGHT NOW AND TRY BREATHING DIFFERENT AIR.

Amazingly I think Brock got it right, I am being targeted for some reason.


I am only guessing, but I do KNOW that because he is different he seems to be targeted. I think it is far better to be entertained by someone with the data than someone that tries to maintain a BS line in a lame attempt to impress & I don't get that from !!WALDO!!

[SoCalPVguy]

I am being targeted for some reason. :bigcry:

:s nore: Reason being you are a blowhard. Now, on to the ignore button...

anyway back to the topic at hand, what makes a great driver: Nerves of steel.

[!!WALDO!!]

:bigcry:

:s nore: Reason being you are a blowhard. Now, on to the ignore button...

anyway back to the topic at hand, what makes a great driver: Nerves of steel.


http://www.motorsportforums.com/forums/showpost.php?p=441069&postcount=1787

Little thin skinned?

[F1boat]

I like WALDO's post, it is very interesting.
In my opinion the most important qualities of a good racing driver, if we agree that he must has the qualities mentioned by WALDO is consistency and desire. As Bob Riebe said, without desire nothing happens, but you must be also consistent, if you are to achieve your goals. For example drivers like Alex Zanardi won championships with huge margin, because they were fighting for the victory every single race. Zanardi's heir and TGR, Juan Montoya, also won the championship, but only just - because he had too many races with retirement.
But a driver should be consistent not only during the championship, but during the race itself, to make lap after lap after lap with similar pace, like Sebastien Bourdais did in CCWS.

[Mark in Oshawa]

Well far be it for me, a guy who has a lot to say also and writes long posts to criticize Waldo. I have no idea how much he argues or runs people down since I havne't been online much in the last 6 months during this merger period, but my epic battles with the likes of Sanguin and Ferrrari F1 for two taught me that the Moddy will slap ya down if you cant play well with others. Unless Waldo is banned...I guess some of you just don't like the guy. That is fine...I thought his post here has some interesting ideas and I liked the fact he had some thought to it. I don't think he is right on all of it but I wont break it all down bit by bit either.

Great race drivers...as opposed to good race drivers should be listed on maybe 2 hands. In the last 100 years of racing, there are about 10 names world wide that make this list. Fangio, Clark, (Jackie, not Tony...yet)Stewart, Foyt, Mario Andretti, Nuvolari, Senna, Earnhardt, Petty, Pearson. Before anyone tosses eggs at me for not having Schumacher or Piquet or Villeneuve or putting stock car guys on with f1 stars here is why I think they are the 10 guys you put on ANY great driver list.

Number 1, they all were Champions. All but a couple did it in a few different venues and most did it for decades, not just a few years. Why were they so good for so long? Simple...they have DESIRE. They want to win so bad they will suffer physical agony and illness to do it. They all had that competitive drive that stopped others by sheer will. Two, they had vision and all that entails. Three, they had uncommon racing minds. They always kept in mind the tactical situation involved. This is where the NASCAR guys gain my respect on this list. The nature of their racing involves WAY more strategy and respect for what everyone else is doing on a techinical level during the race.
Four, all were/are masters of car control. They could hang the car on the edge for lap after lap and most would do it any kind of race car all day long if they had to.

Five....the most important factor? All of these drivers were acclaimed as masters of the game outside the car. They all managed to charm or bully sponsors and racing authorities into changing things to their favour. They played the game of the racing business very well.

A good driver has to be a master of any car they sit in, to control it in all situations, a visionary behind the wheel to react to the situation, a master of tactics, and willing to suffer more than anyone else when the chips are down to get the job done.

Are they the only 10 great ones? No....I suspect a good argument can be made for more....I wont be so arrogant to think I hit on the definitative 10 but I do think the 10 I picked have all of these qualities in spades. Even the stock car guys. Lets face it..it is a subjective thing to list great drivers, but you must admit that balls, desire, brains and a sense for controlling one's destiny to get into the best rides are all qualities you have.......

Out of the current crop of drivers, Tony Stewart, Schumacher, Jeff Gordon, Lewis Hamilton and maybe Marco Andretti might have all these qualities. Boudais might if he ever gets the chance in a good f1 car. I never thought that until I saw him 4th at Melbourne a week ago........in that piece of crap Toro Rosso....he must know something the other stiff's who drove that crapwagon didn't.....

[!!WALDO!!]

Well far be it for me, a guy who has a lot to say also and writes long posts to criticize Waldo. I have no idea how much he argues or runs people down since I havne't been online much in the last 6 months during this merger period, but my epic battles with the likes of Sanguin and Ferrrari F1 for two taught me that the Moddy will slap ya down if you cant play well with others. Unless Waldo is banned...I guess some of you just don't like the guy. That is fine...I thought his post here has some interesting ideas and I liked the fact he had some thought to it. I don't think he is right on all of it but I wont break it all down bit by bit either.

Thank you but this came as a compulation of discussions I had with drivers, 9 of them that drove from 1927 through 1996. Some won National Championships, 500's and were as some would consider field filler that made a nice living doing this. This was 40 years in the making. You may disagree with what I posted but you are really disagreeing with those that actually did it.

I left open the changing face of the sport that many attributes have changed due to equipment and the ability to get rides.

Yes, I play well but they need to be right for me to be liked by them. :rolleyes: