No Traction control will make ____ look average

[Gibbsy]

Felipe Massa.

The guy always looks out of place on difficult tracks and has always woefully underperformed in the wet. His lack of car control in practice today further confirmed to me that he is an average driver that has lucked into a very good machine.

Im not doubting his speed, he still placed third today, but i get the feeling that as time passes, Felipe Massa off track excursions will be increasingly common.

[SGWilko]

Felipe Massa.

The guy always looks out of place on difficult tracks and has always woefully underperformed in the wet. His lack of car control in practice today further confirmed to me that he is an average driver that has lucked into a very good machine.

Im not doubting his speed, he still placed third today, but i get the feeling that as time passes, Felipe Massa off track excursions will be increasingly common.

I would not say Filippe underperformed by any means. He did look ragid at times, but you gotta find the limit......

Time will tell....

[truefan72]

Felipe Massa.

The guy always looks out of place on difficult tracks and has always woefully underperformed in the wet. His lack of car control in practice today further confirmed to me that he is an average driver that has lucked into a very good machine.

Im not doubting his speed, he still placed third today, but i get the feeling that as time passes, Felipe Massa off track excursions will be increasingly common.

...or less, as he comes to grips with it. there's nmo doubt that he has a slightly genlter learning curve, but at the end of the day, he does do quite well at Ferrari

[ioan]

Felipe Massa.

The guy always looks out of place on difficult tracks and has always woefully underperformed in the wet. His lack of car control in practice today further confirmed to me that he is an average driver that has lucked into a very good machine.

Im not doubting his speed, he still placed third today, but i get the feeling that as time passes, Felipe Massa off track excursions will be increasingly common.

I bet if it was Mark Webber in his place at Ferrari than there would be no problem even if he would be beaten by a nautical mile by Raikkonen. :rolleyes:

[Mickey T]

you'll need to bait your hook with a tastier morsel than that, son...

[SGWilko]

ragid

Ragged. Jeez, sometimes I really wonder what I pay my QC dept for..... :laugh:

[edv]

...or less, as he comes to grips with it. ..

clever little pun there, tf. :)

I agree that we'll only find the answer to this question in race conditions and not in practise, although past performance in the wet may be a reasonable indicator.

[jens]

Maybe we should wait until Sunday before burying someone. It's never good to jump into conclusions too early. :)

[Tazio]

Felipe doesn't seem to be sweating it:


Felipe Massa, though, was happier with his day's running, having set the third best time in both practice sessions.


"All in all, I am happy with this start to the season," he said. "We were able to work towards the race and I think I will be able to run at a good pace on a long run.


"Because of going off the track, I was unable to try the last set of soft tyres available to me, but that's certainly not a big problem.


"The harder tyres are very consistent, while the other compound gives more grip on the first lap, but then suffers from greater degradation."
http://www.skysports.com/story/0,19528,12433_3300247,00.html

[truefan72]

so far I have to say that I've been impressed by how all the drivers have taken to the no TC thing.

Now in the wets, that's where the real seperation starts to take place ;)

[CNR]

i seen lewis run wide a few times yesterday

[Tazio]

i seen lewis run wide a few times yesterdayI'm with ya' Bro'! Lewis is capable of Ch Ch Ch errors! :D
But if no one gets between him and HK it could be a cake walk!

[Valve Bounce]

I bet if it was Mark Webber in his place at Ferrari than there would be no problem even if he would be beaten by a nautical mile by Raikkonen. :rolleyes:

I don't think they use nautical miles in F1.

[Gibbsy]

well well well...... 7 seconds into the f1 season and already massa makes a race ruining unforced error that last season tc would have fixed.

Shall the doubters admit my genius now.... or do you want a few more examples first?

[Rollo]

Ferrari!

Massa, Fail!
Raikkonen, Fail!
Bordais, Fail!
Vettel, Fail!
Ferraris that have finished... nil.

Ferrari unreliability so far this year is 100%; I'm wondering if it's got something to to with either the heat or the drive?

[Cozzie]

The true calibre of the modern grand prix driver was shown today.

More than half of the field made key errors including past world champions. I was surprised that young drivers like Lewis and Nico were not the ones to make mistakes whereas some of the older guys did despite having the experience without TC. Any doubt I had that the modern driver has it so much easier, therefore is less of a driver than say Clark and Fangio has now been washed away.

[CNR]

Ferrari!

Massa, Fail!
Raikkonen, Fail!
Bordais, Fail!
Vettel, Fail!


Adrian Sutil Fail!
Ferraris that have finished... nil.

Ferrari unreliability so far this year is 100%; I'm wondering if it's got something to to with either the heat or the drive?
force india

Giancarlo Fisichella crash

[ShiftingGears]

Ferrari!

Massa, Fail!
Raikkonen, Fail!
Bordais, Fail!
Vettel, Fail!
Ferraris that have finished... nil.

Ferrari unreliability so far this year is 100%; I'm wondering if it's got something to to with either the heat or the drive?

Massa - DNF from crash. Clearly not TC related.
Raikkonen and Bourdais - engine DNF. Surely due to heat.
Vettel - DNF from crash in which no TC may not have been a contributory factor.


Lack of traction control did hurt Massa with his spin. But then again I didn't expect him to be challenging for the win anyway.

[SGWilko]

Raikkonen and Bourdais - engine DNF. Surely due to heat.


Yep, he spent a lot of the race stuck in hot exhaust wake, so is their cooling maginal? Plus, even more of a worry were two Ferrari powerplant failures (assuming Kimi and the STR's problems were deffo engine related, which I suspect is the case).

At least the Ferrari boys get new engines and gearboxes next week....

[jens]

I was surprised that young drivers like Lewis and Nico were not the ones to make mistakes whereas some of the older guys did despite having the experience without TC.

Maybe the reason is that the younger drivers have recently come from lower series, where there is no TC (Hamilton, Rosberg, Kovalainen - GP2, Bourdais - CCWS), so they are more familiar with the new situation.

[ArrowsFA1]

Felipe Massa...His lack of car control in practice today further confirmed to me that he is an average driver that has lucked into a very good machine.

well well well...... 7 seconds into the f1 season and already massa makes a race ruining unforced error that last season tc would have fixed.
Lovely fella Felipe, and he's proved that he can win races in a very good car, but today reinforced why he's not going to win a WDC.

[Juppe]

Lovely fella Felipe, and he's proved that he can win races in a very good car, but today reinforced why he's not going to win a WDC.

In Felipe's defence one must say that the world champion in the similar car made a couple of off's himself being too eager and too optimistic.

In addition Ferrari made a weird decision when they did not call Kimi in during SC period, but kept him out with worn tyres and very little gas... I wonder, what where they thinking.

[Colin]

Maybe Ferrari needed to get to Lap XX to make it on one more stop and this is why they left Kimi out? I can't think of another reason for this odd decision.

[ioan]

Lovely fella Felipe, and he's proved that he can win races in a very good car, but today reinforced why he's not going to win a WDC.

It looked to me that this Felipe guy made less mistakes than the Kimi! :rolleyes:
However you may continue hammering that Felipe guy, we all know objectivity isn't some people's strongest point around here.

[Robinho]

spinning in turn one and driving straight into the side of another car not good enough for you?!

true, though, Kimi looked a bit amateur at times too, why they kept him out in the SC period and left him to fight Heikki i odn't understand.

the thing that we keep coming back to, is when things aren't perfect and Massa isn't on the front row he can look quite ordinary

[harsha]

Kimi made a lot of mistakes today but Massa looked out of sorts without TC...

[almattitude_v1]

After watching the race, i guess almost everyone!

[ShiftingGears]

It looked to me that this Felipe guy made less mistakes than the Kimi! :rolleyes:
However you may continue hammering that Felipe guy, we all know objectivity isn't some people's strongest point around here.

The reason that Massa is mentioned in this thread while Kimi isn't is because Massa's problem directly stemmed from the lack of traction control. Which doesn't help his reputation as someone heavily reliant on driver aids to mask his mistakes, would you agree?

Kimi was fast, but impatient. No excuses for that.

[ioan]

The reason that Massa is mentioned in this thread while Kimi isn't is because Massa's problem directly stemmed from the lack of traction control. Which doesn't help his reputation as someone heavily reliant on driver aids to mask his mistakes, would you agree?

Kimi was fast, but impatient. No excuses for that.

Yeah but both spun because they tried hard to overtake. Only some put it down to lack of TC for Massa and to impatience for Raikkonen, while in reality it was the same for both.

[ioan]

Kimi made a lot of mistakes today but Massa looked out of sorts without TC...

That must be the reason why Massa made less mistakes than Kimi! Perfect logics. :rolleyes:

[janneppi]

Yeah but both spun because they tried hard to overtake. Only some put it down to lack of TC for Massa and to impatience for Raikkonen, while in reality it was the same for both.
Kimi's first spun was more to do with him driving one side into the grass just before breaking point, that could perhaps be attributed to the missing break help. Second outing was a result of him breaking too late nothing to do with TC. Coth were rather different from Massa's spun which was mid corner and most likely he was already on the throttle.

[ioan]

Kimi's first spun was more to do with him driving one side into the grass just before breaking point, that could perhaps be attributed to the missing break help. Second outing was a result of him breaking too late nothing to do with TC. Coth were rather different from Massa's spun which was mid corner and most likely he was already on the throttle.

Thanks for proving my point, again. :p :

I bet that Kimi wouldn't have spun when he put a wheel on the grass if the TC would have been there to take care of that wheel. As for missing the braking point, he must have been thinking about the podium already (and he had all the chances to make it before that moment).

[janneppi]

Thanks for proving my point, again. :p :

I bet that Kimi wouldn't have spun when he put a wheel on the grass if the TC would have been there to take care of that wheel. As for missing the braking point, he must have been thinking about the podium already (and he had all the chances to make it before that moment).
IMO Kimi would have been in trouble with that breaking line even with breaking help. Certainly he couldn't have benefitted from TC as he wasn't accelerating into the corner. ;)

Of the secong outing, Kimi said he was thinking of the gap between him and Heidfeld and wanted to get past Heikki as quickly as possible, I doubt it would have worked out even if he had managed to stay on track, Heifdfeld would have gotten a good lead on him no matter what. At least he didn't take out anyone else with him. :p :

[ArrowsFA1]

It looked to me that this Felipe guy made less mistakes than the Kimi! :rolleyes:
However you may continue hammering that Felipe guy, we all know objectivity isn't some people's strongest point around here.
I understand you don't agree with my opinion ioan, but my view of Massa hasn't changed. Melbourne merely added weight to my opinion that he is not WDC material.

[ioan]

I understand you don't agree with my opinion ioan, but my view of Massa hasn't changed. Melbourne merely added weight to my opinion that he is not WDC material.

As you say, it's your opinion. And IF he is no WDC material, so are at least 90% of the grid.
I just gave you an answer, the WDC made more mistakes that a guy you think is no WDC material. My conclusion is that you were talking bollocks. That's all. No offense.

[ShiftingGears]

Thanks for proving my point, again. :p :

I bet that Kimi wouldn't have spun when he put a wheel on the grass if the TC would have been there to take care of that wheel.

Doubt it. Last years USGP saw guys like Sato spin off because they got only a slight amount of wheel onto the grass.

[samuratt]

I would like to point out that almost everydriver that was pushing yesterday found out that driving F1cars without electtronical aids is very difficult.

Two of the drivers that looked worst, in my honest opinion, were the Ferrari drivers. Both at some point of the race made mistakes that the old TC system would have covered.

About Kimi, i think he came back to his Mclaren habits... He became too impatient trying to make up for the ground lost and that lead him to a couple of trips around the grass. Both of them because of missing the breaking point i think, and it has been told that managing you car under braking, without tc, is going to really difficult. So Kimi struggled without TC.

About Massa, i just have one question... Why everytime this guy is driving alongside another car is so prone to touch them? Does he have the meassure of his car all rigth?

Just curious that two of the drivers that looked really bad yesterday were driving a Ferrari. Meybe Ferrari need to consider a change if things keep this trend during the championship... Or maybe (as nobody would have expected)they weren't running an illegal TC device :D

Anyway I really think that Malasya will paint a different picture and both Ferraris should be there fighting for the win.

[weeflyonthewall]

Maybe the reason is that the younger drivers have recently come from lower series, where there is no TC (Hamilton, Rosberg, Kovalainen - GP2, Bourdais - CCWS), so they are more familiar with the new situation.

Bourdais demonstrated that very well. Especially when he started pulling away from 2-time WDC Alonso. Too bad his Ferrari engine cooked, he had 4th locked down. It seemed like Massa was struggling without TC, especially when he took out DC. Looked more like Mr. Toads wild ride....

[Sleeper]

From what I saw, bpth Ferrari drivers made two mistakes, Kimi's were both because of impatients, as was Massa's crash with DC, but Massa's spin was because he lacked finnese on the throtle. I have a feeling we'll see a few more spins like this from Massa this year, but non from Kimi.

[Rollo]

As you say, it's your opinion. And IF he is no WDC material, so are at least 90% of the grid.
I just gave you an answer, the WDC made more mistakes that a guy you think is no WDC material. My conclusion is that you were talking bollocks. That's all. No offense.

In any given season there is only 1 World Champion. Furthermore at best there aren't more than about 3 who actually challenge for it; and it's usually the same few drivers.

To say that 90% of any field aren't World Championship material is not only a perfectly reasonable assumption but a statistical fact. I bet that there have been more than 500 drivers in F1 and less than 50 World Champions.

From the Sauber Petronas team of 2001: Heidfeld is still at Sauber and Kimi and Massa are at Ferrari; only one of these three has ever looked like challenging for the WDC and Kimi's been second twice. Think what you will, history has proved Arrows' opinion.

[ioan]

In any given season there is only 1 World Champion. Furthermore at best there aren't more than about 3 who actually challenge for it; and it's usually the same few drivers.

To say that 90% of any field aren't World Championship material is not only a perfectly reasonable assumption but a statistical fact. I bet that there have been more than 500 drivers in F1 and less than 50 World Champions.

From the Sauber Petronas team of 2001: Heidfeld is still at Sauber and Kimi and Massa are at Ferrari; only one of these three has ever looked like challenging for the WDC and Kimi's been second twice. Think what you will, history has proved Arrows' opinion.

I would say that history has proved my opinion (that more than 90% of the drivers were not WDC material, including the likes of Stirling Moss), while Arrows opinion might be proved only the day when Massa stops racing in F1. Until then it's only his subjective view about one F1 driver he does not appreciate for various reasons.

[ArrowsFA1]

Until then it's only his subjective view about one F1 driver he does not appreciate for various reasons.
Absolutely :up: and maybe Felipe will prove me wrong and win a WDC one day.

[ioan]

Absolutely :up: and maybe Felipe will prove me wrong and win a WDC one day.

Maybe he does maybe he doesn't.
There are so many variables that can help or hinder the quest of any of the drivers no matter how talented.
Young drivers chances shouldn't be dismissed in the same way as those of the old ones, especially when they drive for top teams.

[Big Ben]

If FM is not WDC material then I know he can become it... if 10-12 drivers quit and they are replaced by me, Ioan and some other guys that spend some time around here... I bet in that environment he would look wdc material!

[ioan]

If FM is not WDC material then I know he can become it... if 10-12 drivers quit and they are replaced by me, Ioan and some other guys that spend some time around here... I bet in that environment he would look wdc material!

I'm getting tired of you attacking posters instead of commenting their posts.
Supporting Alonso might not be easy this season, but could you stop behaving like a child, if you aren't one?!

I'm yet to see some intelligent comments, any comments, coming from your keyboard. :rolleyes:

[Big Ben]

I'm getting tired of you attacking posters instead of commenting their posts.
Supporting Alonso might not be easy this season, but could you stop behaving like a child, if you aren't one?!

I'm yet to see some intelligent comments, any comments, coming from your keyboard. :rolleyes:

actually you are wasting your time. My keyboard is pretty dumb... and lazy. I ve never seen it yet typing anything by itself.

[Knock-on]

Maybe he does maybe he doesn't.
There are so many variables that can help or hinder the quest of any of the drivers no matter how talented.
Young drivers chances shouldn't be dismissed in the same way as those of the old ones, especially when they drive for top teams.

Without wanting to bring boll*x into the conversation, do you think that Massa is seriously WDC material? With the likes of Kimi, Alonso, Hamilton et al out there to compete with, can you ever see Massa winning a WDC? I can't.

Ferrari suffered because their drivers are used to the most technically and electronically advanced car on the Grid. The FIA for years have avoided bringing in regulations to upset this advantage and only now, with intense political and financial pressure, have they taken the logical decision to move the sport back from the abyss and what a first race we had as a consequence!!!

The Ferrari is a beautiful car and looks the best out there. It also looks the most stable IMO but the drivers are going to have to adjust more than some of the other teams.

The first half of the season is where McLaren need to may hay as the Ferrari is the best car and the drivers, capable of getting to grips with it.

If they do, it's Kimi again and if not, Lewis. Can't see Massa getting there lol

I understand you don't agree with my opinion ioan, but my view of Massa hasn't changed. Melbourne merely added weight to my opinion that he is not WDC material.

As it did mine.


As you say, it's your opinion. And IF he is no WDC material, so are at least 90% of the grid.

Well, since there are only 2 WDC winners on the grid, it's currently more like 90.9%.....but, decimal points to one side, it's not unreasonable to think that there are only two or three drivers at any one time who really are potential WDC winners.

Fortunately, Ferrari do at least have one.

[ioan]

Without wanting to bring boll*x into the conversation, do you think that Massa is seriously WDC material? With the likes of Kimi, Alonso, Hamilton et al out there to compete with, can you ever see Massa winning a WDC? I can't.

Yes I do! He's very fast (on pure speed he's tops in my book) and he's a hard worker. He can nail it!

[Rollo]

Massa strikes me as having a career that will unfold along the lines of Berger, Barichello, or Coulthard. All supremely quick on their day, all capable of winning races but somehow, the ultimate title was just beyond their grasp.

Maybe through an odd set of circumstances, he might win a title like Mansell did, but I'm tending to agree and think it's a longshot really.

[pino]

Massa he better win the title this year...too many birds in Italy are singing he will be replaced by Vettel next season :eek:

[ioan]

Massa he better win the title this year...too many birds in Italy are singing he will be replaced by Vettel next season :eek:

Those birds better read his contract first! And Vettel's too! ;)

[ArrowsFA1]

Those birds better read his contract first! And Vettel's too! ;)
On that note the departure of Todt may have an impact on Massa's future Ferrari career.

[ioan]

On that note the departure of Todt may have an impact on Massa's future Ferrari career.

It's not like the drivers have contracts with Todt, but rather with Ferrari.
If they want Massa out of a 3 year contract, than it will cost them a big big pile of money, not to mention that he'll find another drive in very very little time!

Honestly I'm not afraid for Massa's place within Ferrari, I rather believe that Kimi will leave F1 at the end of 2009, after having won that elusive WDC title last season he will need more title wins to keep him motivated, but if those doesn't come (I sure hope they do come) than he might just leave.

[samuratt]

Without wanting to bring boll*x into the conversation, do you think that Massa is seriously WDC material? With the likes of Kimi, Alonso, Hamilton et al out there to compete with, can you ever see Massa winning a WDC? I can't.

Ferrari suffered because their drivers are used to the most technically and electronically advanced car on the Grid. The FIA for years have avoided bringing in regulations to upset this advantage and only now, with intense political and financial pressure, have they taken the logical decision to move the sport back from the abyss and what a first race we had as a consequence!!!

The Ferrari is a beautiful car and looks the best out there. It also looks the most stable IMO but the drivers are going to have to adjust more than some of the other teams.

The first half of the season is where McLaren need to may hay as the Ferrari is the best car and the drivers, capable of getting to grips with it.

If they do, it's Kimi again and if not, Lewis. Can't see Massa getting there lol


I think you are right! Ferrari always have the most developed electronical technology available. Regarding to this, i read about a new breaking device, created (in concept i suppose) by Michael Schumacher, that gave a continuous headache to Massa and Kimi at Asutralia because it is very complex and you need to be changing it constantly (do you remember Michael constantly pushing buttons in his steerwheel?). Last year the only thing a driver have to be worried about was pushing the gas...

[samuratt]

It's not like the drivers have contracts with Todt, but rather with Ferrari.
If they want Massa out of a 3 year contract, than it will cost them a big big pile of money, not to mention that he'll find another drive in very very little time!

Honestly I'm not afraid for Massa's place within Ferrari, I rather believe that Kimi will leave F1 at the end of 2009, after having won that elusive WDC title last season he will need more title wins to keep him motivated, but if those doesn't come (I sure hope they do come) than he might just leave.

Ending contracts is not that difficult when one of the sides involved wants to. Fernando had a contract till 2009 with McLaren, for example. And a couple of years back we had what we called the Buttongate. So if I were Massa I wouldn't relay so much on my contract and focus on getting the job done, which ultimately will take you to a better one!

Isn't Vettel commited to BMW already?? I feel that if Ferrari doesn't win the WDC this seasson a driver change may be quite possible.

[Knock-on]

I think you are right! Ferrari always have the most developed electronical technology available. Regarding to this, i read about a new breaking device, created (in concept i suppose) by Michael Schumacher, that gave a continuous headache to Massa and Kimi at Asutralia because it is very complex and you need to be changing it constantly (do you remember Michael constantly pushing buttons in his steerwheel?). Last year the only thing a driver have to be worried about was pushing the gas...


I don't know about this new braking device but Ferrari like to minimise the effect a driver can have as much as possible. I remember when Rubins came to Honda, he struggled not just because he was institutionalised "Ferrari" but because of the lack of driver assistance.

Now, there is nothing wrong with that as the rules were but I think Ferrari and their drivers will struggle now for a few races and although Kimi looked like a "Carry on Driver", I think Massa will ultimately suffer more than Kimi.

[Ranger]

It's not like the drivers have contracts with Todt, but rather with Ferrari.
If they want Massa out of a 3 year contract, than it will cost them a big big pile of money
Hmm... that's negotiable though - See: Alonso in 2007.

not to mention that he'll find another drive in very very little time!
Probably won't be a particularly good drive, though.

Thing is, once drivers leave championship-winning teams without a title (or a fearsome reputation), their careers usually plateau. See: Irvine, Barrichello, Coulthard, Herbert, Fisichella from the recent past.

[SGWilko]

Thing is, once drivers leave championship-winning teams without a title (or a fearsome reputation), their careers usually plateau. See: Irvine, Barrichello, Coulthard, Herbert, Fisichella from the recent past.

Spot on with that one....

Massa is perceived to be the number two at Ferrari, after all, they've never really been a 'both drivers are equal' team since Berger and Alesi.

If Massa was really WDC material, he would not have ended up in the barriers at the first corner.... he's been in F1 long enough now to have plenty of racecraft experience.

I'm not knocking the lad, he comes across as a nice enough chap, just not ruthless enough.

As usual, JMHO, before Ioan steams in with the flame thrower, or Markabilly with the drinks trolley....... ;)

[ioan]

Hmm... that's negotiable though - See: Alonso in 2007.


Only that in that case both wanted to part ways, plus we don't know how much money changed hands! ;)
Don't forget that Ferrari is Italian and Italy is in Europe and I can tell you that contract troubles in the EU are always in favor of the employee unless he stole from the company or something similar.

I don't say that they can't part ways, only that it would be really expensive for one of the parties.

Plus we all are talking about something that was made up after only one race.

[Dzeidzei]

If Massa was really WDC material, he would not have ended up in the barriers at the first corner.... he's been in F1 long enough now to have plenty of racecraft experience.

I'm not knocking the lad, he comes across as a nice enough chap, just not ruthless enough.

As usual, JMHO, before Ioan steams in with the flame thrower, or Markabilly with the drinks trolley....... ;)

Well, with ioan its futile to discuss Felipe. Its like the movie dumb and dumber. When Jim Carrey asks the girl "do you think we have a chance?" and the girl replies "maybe one in a million", Jim shouts "so there is a chance!".

In this respect there is a chance FM will be wdc one day :)

Anyway, if Ferrari wants to put him away to another team using Ferrari engines, that probably wont break his contract in any way. Id still not bet a yen for Vettel. Theres that Spanish guy too, u know....

[ArrowsFA1]

It's not like the drivers have contracts with Todt, but rather with Ferrari.
If they want Massa out of a 3 year contract, than it will cost them a big big pile of money, not to mention that he'll find another drive in very very little time!
You're right, Massa's contract is with Ferrari and he is very much part of the Ferrari 'family'. However, what makes his position weaker IMHO is that he was very much a Todt/MS pick and is of course managed by Todt's son.

Given Todt's departure I suspect Felipe is less secure than he was. As others have said, contracts mean little in F1 and if Luca wants (for example) Alonso in 2009 then it is more than likely he will get his choice.

If Felipe does find himself looking for a drive at the end of the year it will be very interesting to see how long the queue of team owners wanting to sign him is.

[ioan]

If Felipe does find himself looking for a drive at the end of the year it will be very interesting to see how long the queue of team owners wanting to sign him is.

All but 2 or 3 teams would sign him.

[samuratt]

All but 2 or 3 teams would sign him.

mmm let me guess:

Toro Rosso??
Force India???

;)

[ioan]

mmm let me guess:

Toro Rosso??
Force India???

;)

11-3=8 not 2 :p :

[BDunnell]

Absolutely :up: and maybe Felipe will prove me wrong and win a WDC one day.

I don't think winning a WDC is everything, and I don't feel that Massa should be judged a failure if he doesn't.

And if Ferrari dumps him at the end of this season, I should think he would find a seat somewhere. Race-winning, (generally) front-running drivers are quite a rare commodity in F1, and those are good things to have on a CV. Where he would end up is another matter entirely.

[Ari]

From what I saw, bpth Ferrari drivers made two mistakes, Kimi's were both because of impatients, as was Massa's crash with DC, but Massa's spin was because he lacked finnese on the throtle. I have a feeling we'll see a few more spins like this from Massa this year, but non from Kimi.

That said.... due to quali Kimi started on the backfoot and in midfield and had a lot of work to do. All in all though, he showed what a gun he is by catching up. Then showed he's human by throwing it away.

Kimi will be okay. The Aussie GP, really, was just a shambles. Perhaps some down to the heat (I was there, it was HOT!) and some down to no TC... but it was certainly an entertaining first installment.

The irony of course is that this weeks GP is likely to rain buckets.

[samuratt]

11-3=8 not 2 :p :

I was being ironic Ioan!

Those two are the ones I think he will go to, and i was guessing those two weren't the ones you would like. :S

You can add Superaguri to make it three, if you want to. :D

[ioan]

I was being ironic Ioan!

Those two are the ones I think he will go to, and i was guessing those two weren't the ones you would like. :S

You can add Superaguri to make it three, if you want to. :D

I was ironic too! Thus the :p : smiley!

Not sure what SAF1's name will be in a few races, so I'll leave them out of the equation! ;)

[jens]

It's very early to talk about that, but indeed if Vettel replaces Massa at Ferrari, then the Brazilian's career will take a very steep step downstairs as it's hard to see, which top team would hire him.

McLaren? - can't see that happening
BMW? - they'd probably prefer to continue with their current drivers
Renault? - I think Grosjean is their first option in case a race drive seat becomes vacant.
Williams? - Hülkenberg in Williams is in similar situation as Grosjean at Renault.

Toyota, Red Bull and Honda might be possible to some extent, but FM has to prove himself this year to convince that his is the best option for them.

STR? - Somewhere were rumours that Nicholas Todt is interested in purchasing that team. So Felipe's move to there might be plausible.

[ioan]

Toyota, Red Bull and Honda might be possible to some extent, but FM has to prove himself this year to convince that his is the best option for them.

I don't see why he should leave Ferrari if he is doing well.

[Knock-on]

I don't see why he should leave Ferrari if he is doing well.

Well, that's what we're discussing?

So far, he's in the "Muppet" category after 1 race. Lets see how he does this weekend :)

[Big Ben]

No tc doesn´t make Massa look average... he still has to get there. I just want to see him in the rain...

[Big Ben]

No tc doesn´t make Massa look average... he still has to get there. I just want to see him in the rain...

[harsha]

to be honest...that was a pretty rookie error...

interesting on how much that has to do with NO TC

[ioan]

to be honest...that was a pretty rookie error...

interesting on how much that has to do with NO TC

He was pushing to hard through the double right handed and missed the apex for the second turn. Game over! It was on the corner entry not on the exit so even TC wouldn't have saved him.
His car wasn't set up for the harder tires as good as for the softer ones. He was faster on soft tires but couldn't match Kimi on the harder ones.
Should have been calm and go for a very safe 2nd place.

[SGWilko]

Are we going to see Massa in a Ferrari (factory car) in 2009?

[Robinho]

looked like corner exit to me, and from what the TV said, its exactly the sort of thing that TC would have mopped up last year.

Brundle made what i thought were 2 very good points.

firstly that to him it looked like ambition got the beter of adhesion, secondly, that the new rules mean the drivers have to drive every corner of every lap, much more involved than they used to be, that mistakes will therefore be more harshly punished.

of course we may be ahead of ourselves and it may turn out that something broke, but it sounded from the onboard like the rears just spun up under throttle. Also massa couldn't pin it on anything having seemed to have broken, and the Ferrari data showed nothing either.

it might just be a simple mistake that could have happened to anyone, but it did happen to Massa, again, and its not going anywhere to dimiss the perception that Massa is a very good and quick driver, but prone to mistakes and only at his est when at the front and in control.

to me it looked like that Kimi was able to stay pretty close all the 1st stint and then destroyed Massa with 2 very quick laps around the pit stops and puled out a gap far quicker than Massa did - did all this put Massa on the back foot and he outdrove himself trying to put himself back in contention?

[Gibbsy]

Pre race 1... I make a prediction that without tc show himself to be a sub-par driver.

Race 1.... Massa makes a race ruining unforced error that tc would ahve saved.

Race 2... Massa makes a race ruining unforced error that tc would have saved.

*smug*

[jso1985]

Many predicted Massa will "choke" without TC, so far they're kinda right
but also many predicted Button would kick butt, yeah right...

[ShiftingGears]

Well two from two for Massa...I don't think anything more needs to be said...

[osg]

I don't see why he should leave Ferrari if he is doing well.

whoops :rolleyes:

Those Vettel rumors just got behind a megaphone are are now louder.......

[osg]

Pre race 1... I make a prediction that without tc show himself to be a sub-par driver.

Race 1.... Massa makes a race ruining unforced error that tc would ahve saved.

Race 2... Massa makes a race ruining unforced error that tc would have saved.

*smug*

smug? i prefer "smug nostradamous" there gibbsy :D

[Knock-on]

Many predicted Massa will "choke" without TC, so far they're kinda right
but also many predicted Button would kick butt, yeah right...

I don't think Massa chokes, but he's trying too hard and over-driving the car.

As for Button, he was knocked out of the first race and showed well in the second. The Honda is better than last year (couldn't be worse) and I'm eagerly anticipating a fair few points as the season goes on.

[trumperZ06]

I don't think Massa chokes, but he's trying too hard and over-driving the car.

As for Button, he was knocked out of the first race and showed well in the second. The Honda is better than last year (couldn't be worse) and I'm eagerly anticipating a fair few points as the season goes on.

JB is a "very smooth" driver, so eliminating TC doesn't create as big a problem for him as it does others, who relied on TC to correct for their aggressive throttle imputs.

That said, Scot Speed also is very smooth... but you still need a competitive car to finish on the podium.

Still, I will be surprised if JB does well this year... not being motivated driving for Honda.

[jso1985]

But some people here in the forum predicted Button would dominate the grid due his smoth driving... so far he hasn't done bad of course but even in the car he has he's far from showing everyone how to drive without TC, in any case Webber, Alonso or Trulli are doing quite better than what the car seems capable to

[Roamy]

jso - to win with out a non TC car you are still going to have to "hustle" the car. Alonso and Kimi are the best so far. Button has to gain more improvement and confidence if he is going to get it up. But trulli is going to get harder and harder to pass.

[ArrowsFA1]

But some people here in the forum predicted Button would dominate the grid due his smoth driving... so far he hasn't done bad of course but even in the car he has he's far from showing everyone how to drive without TC
I don't remember anyone saying Button would "dominate the grid". However, it has often been said that his driving style suits a non-TC car because he didn't rely on TC has much as some other drivers, but that's about it.

Button in a 2008 Honda was never going to "dominate the grid", just has he couldn't do that with the 2007 Honda.

[Knock-on]

I don't remember anyone saying Button would "dominate the grid". However, it has often been said that his driving style suits a non-TC car because he didn't rely on TC has much as some other drivers, but that's about it.

Button in a 2008 Honda was never going to "dominate the grid", just has he couldn't do that with the 2007 Honda.

Are you trying to suggest that posters should actually post something factual instead of making up any old crap?

You FOOL!!! :)

I do expect the Honda and JB to feature more in 09 though :)

[leopard]

Those have opinion that Honda+Button = dominating the grid, I think they have good remembrance that this combination worked out perfectly in 2004 better than Honda*(JV+panis) or any other combination, simple :)

[trumperZ06]

jso - to win with out a non TC car you are still going to have to "hustle" the car. Alonso and Kimi are the best so far. Button has to gain more improvement and confidence if he is going to get it up. But trulli is going to get harder and harder to pass.

;) Hamilton also looked very good in Australia... hustling the McLaren into the corner and then catching the rear end @ corner exit. He didn't do as well last week... probably due to the car's set-up.

[Valve Bounce]

I do expect the Honda and JB to feature more in 09 though :)


Absolutely, and I agree 100% with you. Bunsen will probably be vying for the championship. :eek:

However, I am depending on the fact that by 2009, nobody will remember the rubbish I posted today about bunsen. :p :

[Tazio]

Absolutely, and I agree 100% with you. Bunsen will probably be vying for the championship. :eek:

However, I am depending on the fact that by 2009, nobody will remember the rubbish I posted today about bunsen. :p :
Don't count on it! :p : BTW I need a ruling on how long I have to wear "The Scarlet Sig" How 'bout a repreive?
Come on Valve! I didn't even include Fred in my 8 picks for Barhain! :eek:

[Valve Bounce]

Don't count on it! :p : BTW I need a ruling on how long I have to wear "The Scarlet Sig" How 'bout a repreive?
Come on Valve! I didn't even include Fred in my 8 picks for Barhain! :eek:

OK, after the next race, you choose our sig - fair enough?

[Tazio]

OK, after the next race, you choose our sig - fair enough?
;)

[Dzeidzei]

JB is a "very smooth" driver, so eliminating TC doesn't create as big a problem for him as it does others, who relied on TC to correct for their aggressive throttle imputs.

Smooth has never been a prob for Jenson. His problem is that he is too slow. In a way he´s a bit unfortunate to suffer for his based-on-basicly-nothing reputation of being somehow extraordinary.

In real fights on track he´s been less aggressive than Bernie or the Foster girls in the pitlane.

[Garry Walker]

Button could be in the best car and he still wouldn`t win. Simply because he is an average driver.

Kubica seems to be doing really well without TC.

[ioan]

And today THAT "average" driver showed the way to them WDC wannabes! ;)

[ArrowsFA1]

Yup, a great weekend for Felipe :up: He responded well to the criticism he has received, and did not let it affect him. Today he showed us what we already know he is capable of - leading from the front in a car that is the class of the field ;)

[ioan]

Yup, a great weekend for Felipe :up: He responded well to the criticism he has received, and did not let it affect him. Today he showed us what we already know he is capable of - leading from the front in a car that is the class of the field ;)

He started 2nd not 1st! And unlike the "best thing since sliced bread" he knew how to get a good start, from the dirty side, with a heavier car! ;)

Felipe was the class of the field for the whole week end.

[Phoenix]

He started 2nd not 1st! And unlike the "best thing since sliced bread" he knew how to get a good start, from the dirty side, with a heavier car! ;)

Felipe was the class of the field for the whole week end.

Hair splitting? I think being on the front row could be considered from the front....

[ioan]

Hair splitting? I think being on the front row could be considered from the front....

Yeah it can be considered, it depends on the point of view. Now that you talk about hair splitting, even 10th row is at the front when compared to the 11th one! :p :

Anyway, if someone is fast than he starts at the front, that's the way it was always in F1. ;)

[jens]

I'm very happy about Massa's comeback! :up: He was under enormous pressure, was almost written off from a 2009 Ferrari drive and he responded to all the critics in style! Flawless performance throughout the whole race. What is interesting that although it has been said that Massa will be the loser in a non-TC car, then in qualifying his advantage over Räikkönen has even increased!

[ioan]

What is interesting that although it has been said that Massa will be the loser in a non-TC car, then in qualifying his advantage over Räikkönen has even increased!

As I already stated, very few have real knowledge about F1, but the lack of knowledge never stopped anyone voicing his/her beliefs around here. ;)

[trumperZ06]

As I already stated, very few have real knowledge about F1, but the lack of knowledge never stopped anyone voicing his/her beliefs around here. ;)

:D Way to GOOOO, Ioan.

;) They've always said that...

self-confessing is good for your soul !!!



:) Massa's done this before.... after having two or three bad races,

he's shown the knack of bouncing back.

[jas123f1]

Very good performance by Ferrari and congrats to Massa for the win which he deserved and above all needed very much.

I think - the team order was "drive cars safely home" and that means "don't drive against each other” and I must say it was a right time for an order like that. Because Massa was quicker during whole weekend and he very much needed a good result after Australia and Malaysia.
I think Ferrari is back in business now… And what happened with Lewis??? It doesn't look better than that that he makes all “the rookie mistakes” now – instead last year (now when Alonso left the team) .. Heikki looks in fact a bit "cooler" even if he also made his "breaking mistakes" .. :)

[CNR]

i am surprised that there have not been any jumpstarts yet

[Tazio]

It's too early to make a cogent appraisal of the true form of this seasons competitors. However Not one to hide his feeling Niki Lauda has lashed out at the performance of Great Britain's Lewis Hamilton.

“At the moment he does not impress me,'' Lauda was quoted as saying in the Independent. “I thought he would become better this year but he has become worse. He is in pretty bad shape. The crash with Alonso, and in practice on Friday, was absolutely needless. He showed nothing in this race. I think that is because of the pressure he is putting himself under.''


Lewis was annoyed with himself after the race and left the Sakhir circuit as soon as he was able, the young Brit feeling as if he had let the team down. However, team CEO Martin Whitmarsh has no doubts that their star driver will bounce back in time for the next round of the championship that finds Hamilton in a three way tie for third behind Kimi Raikonen, and McLaren teammate Heikki Kovalainen, with Ferrari's Felipe Massa only 4 points adrift after a wining drive at the Grand Prix of Bahrain Sunday

http://f1.automoto365.com/news/controller.php?lang=en&theme=default&month=4&year=2008&nextMode=GpNewsForm&news_id=30666

“I think he’s disappointed, but he’s very strong-minded. He had a reasonable qualifying run, but a practice accident meant Friday wasn’t his greatest day, and nor was Sunday. He won’t lose confidence, though. He believes in himself and knows he can get the job done. He’ll go away, rebuild and come back stronger in Spain.”

[ioan]

He’ll go away, rebuild and come back stronger in Spain.”

It seems that everyone is rebuilt or in need of rebuilding in the McLaren team!
Or maybe their vocabulary is a bit limited to technical terms?! :D

[Tazio]

It seems that everyone is rebuilt or in need of rebuilding in the McLaren team!
Or maybe their vocabulary is a bit limited to technical terms?! :D

From The Princess Bride

Fazinni " Inconceivable!"

Ineugo Montoya " Boss, I don' thin' that word means what you thin' it means! :p :

OR-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

There is the possibility that they are speaking literally, and they have "systematically" turned their drivers into androids :confused:

[woody2goody]

Thought I'd chip in on the debate on TC.

The first three races have been a microcosm of Felipe Massa at Ferrari. Two bad races when he had a bad qualifying and race in Oz, then a spin in Malaysia.

But then, miraculously, in Bahrain, he starts on pole and wins. I think his season will be slightly better this season, but he won't win the championship. Raikkonen is too strong for him in his own team, and depending on improvements from others, he will still struggle to beat Heidfeld, Kubica, Hamilton and Kovalainen. i think these drivers are better racers and show better overtaking skill in particular.

Button is a fantastic driver. He set the fastest lap in the first 10 laps in Bahrain. Even though it was early on, to be going faster than Ferrari, McLaren and BMW in that car, is an amazing achievement. I doubt he had a light fuel load either. He was just very unlucky at the start. Without these problems he could have been 5th or 6th. Given the right car, he WILL win the championship. He hardly ever makes mistakes, and along with Trulli is very smooth, and despite Rubens doing well in all the races so far, Jenson has still been quicker even though he has retired twice.

[wmcot]

To alter the thread's title a bit:

"No Launch control will make LEWIS look average" ;)

[Tazio]

Thought I'd chip in on the debate on TC.

The first three races have been a microcosm of Felipe Massa at Ferrari. Two bad races when he had a bad qualifying and race in Oz, then a spin in Malaysia.

But then, miraculously, in Bahrain, he starts on pole and wins. I think his season will be slightly better this season, but he won't win the championship. Raikkonen is too strong for him in his own team, and depending on improvements from others, he will still struggle to beat Heidfeld, Kubica, Hamilton and Kovalainen. i think these drivers are better racers and show better overtaking skill in particular.

Button is a fantastic driver. He set the fastest lap in the first 10 laps in Bahrain. Even though it was early on, to be going faster than Ferrari, McLaren and BMW in that car, is an amazing achievement. I doubt he had a light fuel load either. He was just very unlucky at the start. Without these problems he could have been 5th or 6th. Given the right car, he WILL win the championship. He hardly ever makes mistakes, and along with Trulli is very smooth, and despite Rubens doing well in all the races so far, Jenson has still been quicker even though he has retired twice.I think both Rubins, and Jenson benifit from the confidence that Brawn brings He hasn't been there long enough to make any real difference. Rubins knows that RB is a stratagist When Button believes in the strategy he will have a valuable tool to go along with smooth. A car with some balance would also be helpful!

[ShiftingGears]

To alter the thread's title a bit:

"No Launch control will make LEWIS look average" ;)

I'd like to know how his blunders were related to not having TC.

[wmcot]

I'd like to know how his blunders were related to not having TC.

That's why I changed the wording in my post to "No Launch Control" not traction control.

[ioan]

To alter the thread's title a bit:

"No Launch control will make LEWIS look average" ;)

Nice move! ;)

[ShiftingGears]

That's why I changed the wording in my post to "No Launch Control" not traction control.

I heard from ITV he selected the wrong engine map.

[jas123f1]

Thought I'd chip in on the debate on TC.
But then, miraculously, in Bahrain, he starts on pole and wins. I think his season will be slightly better this season, but he won't win the championship. Raikkonen is too strong for him in his own team, and depending on improvements from others, he will still struggle to beat Heidfeld, Kubica, Hamilton and Kovalainen. i think these drivers are better racers and show better overtaking skill in particular.

Button is a fantastic driver.

Perhaps – perhaps, even if i believe that Massa will make a good job during the rest of the season. I think he has at last realised how serious business F1 is and also that if he wants to be a champion he needs 100 % concentration during the races and not only 95 % .. (and Massa didn't start from the pole this time, this was actually his first win when starting not from the pole position)

Sure, also I think that Button is a great driver – but it’s very hard to see that the team can improve their performance very much this year despite that Brown is there, maybe next year (but just maybe) …

[ioan]

I heard from ITV he selected the wrong engine map.

There are quotes from Lewis saying himself that he pushed the button to late.
The guy is saying it as it was, but for some reason the media is trying to cover him and goes against his own comments.

[ShiftingGears]

There are quotes from Lewis saying himself that he pushed the button to late.


But then if that is the case then it wasn't lack of launch control that caused his poor start, was it? ;)

[Tazio]

There are quotes from Lewis saying himself that he pushed the button to late.
The guy is saying it as it was, but for some reason the media is trying to cover him and goes against his own comments.And now someone is going to acuse you of bashing. It happened! He admit it.
I don't understand the necesssity to do damage control because when he gets back on his game.
This episode will be considered an uncharacteristic mistake. If he doesn't get back on his game,
then it becomes a characteristic mistake! I don't understand the controversy.

[ArrowsFA1]

There are quotes from Lewis saying himself that he pushed the button to late.
The guy is saying it as it was, but for some reason the media is trying to cover him and goes against his own comments.
Lewis Hamilton (http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/66443): "Basically I hadn't hit the switch early enough, and therefore we weren't in the launch map, and then it went straight into anti-stall. Everyone else was then in their launch mode, and I wasn't."

The guy admits he made an error. What the media do or say, and how they report it, doesn't matter. LH's comments are available for everyone to read.

Some of the media deserve a great deal of criticism for their reporting, but you can pick what you read, and Hamilton cannot be blamed for what the media write.

[Knock-on]

And now someone is going to acuse you of bashing. It happened! He admit it.
I don't understand the necesssity to do damage control because when he gets back on his game.
This episode will be considered an uncharacteristic mistake. If he doesn't get back on his game,
then it becomes a characteristic mistake! I don't understand the controversy.

Precisely. Every driver makes mistakes and that's that. If it starts a worrying trend then he will be exposed but I think we have seen that he makes very few mistakes, especially considering his time in F1. :up:


Lewis Hamilton (http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/66443): "Basically I hadn't hit the switch early enough, and therefore we weren't in the launch map, and then it went straight into anti-stall. Everyone else was then in their launch mode, and I wasn't."

The guy admits he made an error. What the media do or say, and how they report it, doesn't matter. LH's comments are available for everyone to read.

Some of the media deserve a great deal of criticism for their reporting, but you can pick what you read, and Hamilton cannot be blamed for what the media write.

I love the way people blame drivers for what the media write :laugh:

Lets judge them by their words and deeds, not other peoples opinions. I have been very fortunate to have met Lewis in his early years. It was only for a few minutes but he struck me a a focused and genuine person. He has bags of self confidence which people confuse as arrogance and a spark and electricity surrounding him which is contagious. However, that is my opinion and as such, holds as much legitimacy as anyone else's. :D

[ioan]

But then if that is the case then it wasn't lack of launch control that caused his poor start, was it? ;)

I'm not sure that you understand how the start systems work in F1 cars.

[markabilly]

Lewis Hamilton (http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/66443): "Basically I hadn't hit the switch early enough, and therefore we weren't in the launch map, and then it went straight into anti-stall. Everyone else was then in their launch mode, and I wasn't."

The guy admits he made an error. What the media do or say, and how they report it, doesn't matter. LH's comments are available for everyone to read.

Some of the media deserve a great deal of criticism for their reporting, but you can pick what you read, and Hamilton cannot be blamed for what the media write.
The nonsense that somehow TC is not present, is pretty much done in by this comment. It is clearly a form of traction control, perhaps without all the feedback and engine sputterring, but it is still traction control in a lesser form by using engine mapping to keep out or limit wheel spin.

When wheel spin occurrs, the revs skyrocket instantly. By preventing this instant "sky rocket" effect, one has a form of traction control. So there may be some wheel spin, but not nothing like the days of old.

Indeed, may not be as good as last year, but it seems to be effective.

Otherwise you would see someone somewhere on the grid, lighting up tires, smoke boiling off the tires and leaving those black marks of rubber. Not once have I seen that.
Not even from the last place on the start or after pit stops. :vader:

So all one has to do is have other maps for other types of the circuits and conditions, indeed, for even different types of tires, and once again, it is electronics over the right foot.

And the best at having the maps of their choice, will get the best on exit out of corners. May not be as effective as last year, but it still has the impact of a form of TC.

[Tazio]

spot on!
Plus anything with microsoft on it
is going to malfunction :laugh:

[wmcot]

There are quotes from Lewis saying himself that he pushed the button to late.


Would that be the "secret 3 button combination" that Honda found? :)

[ArrowsFA1]

The nonsense that somehow TC is not present, is pretty much done in by this comment. It is clearly a form of traction control, perhaps without all the feedback and engine sputterring, but it is still traction control in a lesser form by using engine mapping to keep out or limit wheel spin.
I seem to recall reading somewhere (no link!!) that the ECU is designed to allow something like this for 90secs :dozey:

[woody2goody]

and Massa didn't start from the pole this time, this was actually his first win when starting not from the pole position)

Yeah, sorry, my mistake, you see because he got into the first corner first my brain says to me that he was on pole. When in fact, it was the Pole on pole :)

I think it porves that when he can get a trouble-free run (usually from pole), that he does the job very well. i think the mistakes he made at Sauber may still be there, it's just he doesn't make as many of them now he's at the front of the grid. Which means that in 2002 he may have been just as good as he is now, and the mistakes he made weren't just due to being a rookie.

[Dzeidzei]

So this thread is still alive?

To be honest, the topic is wrongly formulated. Its not that No traction control will make someone look average. Its more about No TC will show who of the grid are average.

By midseason we´ll know. Then no one will have any room for excuses. However, I think quite a few will be rated average. Even guys that regularly have been in the first few rows.

The ones that stand out are world class.

[SGWilko]

So this thread is still alive?

To be honest, the topic is wrongly formulated. Its not that No traction control will make someone look average. Its more about No TC will show who of the grid are average.

By midseason we´ll know. Then no one will have any room for excuses. However, I think quite a few will be rated average. Even guys that regularly have been in the first few rows.

The ones that stand out are world class.

Actually, the loss of TC is showing just how on a knife edge the aero is on the cars. Massa's spin in Sepang was put down to the aero being stalled in a previous corner.

The cars are still designed as they were when TC was in use. It's akin to the eurofighter in a way, whereby the pilot cannot possibly fly the thing, the computers do it all.......