McLaren sack Couglan

[Knock-on]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/motorsport/formula_one/7295863.stm

With this, hopefully McLaren have shaken off the last chapter of this sorry episode.

Of course, there will be people that will continuously rehash this business to have a juvenile dig but for the sake of F1, shouldn't we draw a line under this?

F1 has always been a hotbed of intellectual cross pollination and McLaren were made a example of. However, it's worth bearing in mind that no team is innocent in this matter.

McLaren have been put through the ringer, quite rightly, and it's time to move forward and enjoy the sport, not the politics.

[SGWilko]

Well, lets hope that is a line in the sand for the team.

Everything does seem* to be cooling off now (FIA backing down on Stepney but banning until '09 MC), the Italian Fuzz also seem to have gone cool on Stepney a bit.

* famous last words?

[Dave B]

Oh well, he can always get a job in the local photocopy shop :p

[markabilly]

strange---- the guy who is given the secrets pays the higher penalties than the one who stole and sold?

or gave?

my understanding is that ns was not really banned, only that teams were to use "due dilligence" before hiring him (I guess that menas verifying he really is a crook) but MC is actually banned until july 2009

[SGWilko]

strange---- the guy who is given the secrets pays the higher penalties than the one who stole and sold?



Lets see what the Italian Legal System makes of it. So far, they seem to agree with the FIA, and are easing up on Steppers. Anyone else in the red corner looking a little sheepish, or will the legal case just peter out and die?

After all, we don't want any [potential] embarrassement now, do we?

[markabilly]

Lets see what the Italian Legal System makes of it. So far, they seem to agree with the FIA, and are easing up on Steppers. Anyone else in the red corner looking a little sheepish, or will the legal case just peter out and die?

After all, we don't want any [potential] embarrassement now, do we?
Gone from cynic to conspiracy nut case, are you??????? :D

[SGWilko]

Gone from cynic to conspiracy nut case, are you??????? :D

According to Cadbury, everyone's a fruit and nut case..... ;)

Lets just wait for some facts to come out. Facts that stand up in a court of law, as opposed to here'say and rumour and chinese whispers.

I guess this is all getting a bit long in the tooth now, isnt it, a bit like Simon Cowell, churning out the same garbage year after year......

[ArrowsFA1]

Is Phil Mackereth still suspended :confused:

[ioan]

So, they kept him long enough to finish the 2008 contender, using all he read in those 700+ pages, then they throw him out!
Sound like McLaren to me! :rolleyes:

[markabilly]

So, they kept him long enough to finish the 2008 contender, using all he read in those 700+ pages, then they throw him out!
Sound like McLaren to me! :rolleyes:
and along comes Ioan, bayonenting the wounded...... :D

[ArrowsFA1]

So, they kept him long enough to finish the 2008 contender, using all he read in those 700+ pages, then they throw him out!
Sound like McLaren to me! :rolleyes:
I guess that means the MP4-23 is the 248F1 painted silver :crazy: Ferrari couldn't beat Renault with that car two years ago so there's not much hope for the boys from Woking this year then :p : ;)

[Tazio]

and along comes Ioan, bayonenting the wounded...... :D Excellent metaphor Mark!-----On a different thought...............
I think McLaren will be exonerated of any serious criminal doing by the Italian court!

[gshevlin]

I predict that the Italian legal system will eventually issue a ruling which terminates legal action, along the lines of "nothing to see here...move along". They will do it because if either Coughlan or Stepney are dragged into court, Ferrari will be forced to answer (in court and outside) questions like (a) how did you so seriously screw up your relationship with a key employee that he felt a compulsion to steal IP (b) how/why did your processes let him steal the IP and carry it outside of the team? I do not think that anybody from Ferrari would like to have to answer questions like this in a court of law. There is also the little matter of Stepney being intimately associated with Ferrari's recent championships. If he has information about how Ferrari creatively interpreted the F1 regulations to build a faster car, some of that information might be embarrassing if revealed in open court. I truly believe that a lot of teams have been bending or end-running the tech regs at various times in the last 15 years. Nobody in F1 wants that kind of dirty laundry being washed in public right now.
My conclusion: there will be irresistible pressure to shut down all remaining inquiries, legal actions etc.

[SGWilko]

So, they kept him long enough to finish the 2008 contender, using all he read in those 700+ pages, then they throw him out!
Sound like McLaren to me! :rolleyes:

According to Autosport he could not be dismissed for legal reasons, but we won't let details like that cloud our judgement, will we Ioan? Keep knocking out the same story, but with a different twist buddy......

[Easy Drifter]

Be honest folks. Every team in motorsport bends, gets creative, etc. with the rules. Always have, always will. We sure did.
Look at NAPCAR. They discover something almost every week.
The trick is to find the grey area or hide your imagative interpretation really well. The more rules the easier it is to find a loophole.
Every designer/engineer sits down with the rules and tries to figure out a useful angle or grey area.

[ioan]

I guess that means the MP4-23 is the 248F1 painted silver :crazy: Ferrari couldn't beat Renault with that car two years ago so there's not much hope for the boys from Woking this year then :p : ;)

Arrows, you're a bit out of sync there, Coughlan had the technical info about the Ferrari F 2007! ;)

[SGWilko]

I predict that the Italian legal system will eventually issue a ruling which terminates legal action, along the lines of "nothing to see here...move along". They will do it because if either Coughlan or Stepney are dragged into court, Ferrari will be forced to answer (in court and outside) questions like (a) how did you so seriously screw up your relationship with a key employee that he felt a compulsion to steal IP (b) how/why did your processes let him steal the IP and carry it outside of the team? I do not think that anybody from Ferrari would like to have to answer questions like this in a court of law. There is also the little matter of Stepney being intimately associated with Ferrari's recent championships. If he has information about how Ferrari creatively interpreted the F1 regulations to build a faster car, some of that information might be embarrassing if revealed in open court. I truly believe that a lot of teams have been bending or end-running the tech regs at various times in the last 15 years. Nobody in F1 wants that kind of dirty laundry being washed in public right now.
My conclusion: there will be irresistible pressure to shut down all remaining inquiries, legal actions etc.

Well, you'd assume some of your hypothetical questions will be answered in Red Mist, that's if there is any meat left after the lawyers get their teeth into it. I expect Stepney's bank balance to bulge under the strain of wads of cash at some point this year.

Cynical - hell yes.

Realistic - you bet.

God, I hope the book is warts 'n all, really I do......

[mstillhere]

I predict that the Italian legal system will eventually issue a ruling which terminates legal action, along the lines of "nothing to see here...move along". They will do it because if either Coughlan or Stepney are dragged into court, Ferrari will be forced to answer (in court and outside) questions like (a) how did you so seriously screw up your relationship with a key employee that he felt a compulsion to steal IP (b) how/why did your processes let him steal the IP and carry it outside of the team? I do not think that anybody from Ferrari would like to have to answer questions like this in a court of law. There is also the little matter of Stepney being intimately associated with Ferrari's recent championships. If he has information about how Ferrari creatively interpreted the F1 regulations to build a faster car, some of that information might be embarrassing if revealed in open court. I truly believe that a lot of teams have been bending or end-running the tech regs at various times in the last 15 years. Nobody in F1 wants that kind of dirty laundry being washed in public right now.
My conclusion: there will be irresistible pressure to shut down all remaining inquiries, legal actions etc.

Never mind the questions that Ferrari would have to answer in court. If I were RD I would be way more concerned than Ferrari to be dragged in court and having to explain to the world how did he go from: "we don't know anything in our team. What happened was caused only by a couple of employees" to: "In a letter to FIA's World Motorsport Council, Martin Whitmarsh, the McLaren chief operating officer, expressed his embarrassment that secret Ferrari documents were widely spread through his team." http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/sport/formula_1/article3551515.ece
See to me that would be really interesting to know.
And BTW, you are still convinced, after all the confessions, concessions and admissions of the McLAren team that after all it was all Ferrari's fault?

[gshevlin]

Never mind the questions that Ferrari would have to answer in court. If I were RD I would be way more concerned than Ferrari to be dragged in court and having to explain to the world how did he go from: "we don't know anything in our team. What happened was caused only by a couple of employees" to: "In a letter to FIA's World Motorsport Council, Martin Whitmarsh, the McLaren chief operating officer, expressed his embarrassment that secret Ferrari documents were widely spread through his team." http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/sport/formula_1/article3551515.ece
See to me that would be really interesting to know.

I agree that would be extremely embarrassing for McLaren to have to answer. However, I was writing about possible Ferrari embarrassment.

And BTW, you are still convinced, after all the confessions, concessions and admissions of the McLAren team that after all it was all Ferrari's fault?
You show me where I made the statement "it was all Ferrari's fault". Until you find that statement that comment is a classic example of a strawman fallacy. Ferrari's IP did not suddenly materialize in the hands or email inbox of Mike Coughlan, it was provided to him by sources within Ferrari. McLaren are culpable, but the availability of the IP is Ferrari's problem also. If a corporation allows a situation to develop where disaffected employees start leaking proprietary information and IP to rivals, that corporation has a security/employee management issue of its own.

[SGWilko]

Never mind the questions that Ferrari would have to answer in court. If I were RD I would be way more concerned than Ferrari to be dragged in court and having to explain to the world how did he go from: "we don't know anything in our team. What happened was caused only by a couple of employees" to: "In a letter to FIA's World Motorsport Council, Martin Whitmarsh, the McLaren chief operating officer, expressed his embarrassment that secret Ferrari documents were widely spread through his team."

I can just imagine Ferrari dropping the Legal action to save McLarens potential embarrasement........ ;)

[markabilly]

I can just imagine Ferrari dropping the Legal action to save McLarens potential embarrasement........ ;)
See now, once you cut back on the :beer: , you begin to see everything in a better red color than before.....Congratulations.

[N. Jones]

So, they kept him long enough to finish the 2008 contender, using all he read in those 700+ pages, then they throw him out!
Sound like McLaren to me! :rolleyes:
They did that just to rile you up. :rolleyes:

[ioan]

I can just imagine Ferrari dropping the Legal action to save McLarens potential embarrasement........ ;)

What Stepney and Coughlan did is a crime, that's why it is being investigated by the prosecutors. I'm afraid that it lies in the prosecutors hands what will happen from now on.

[jso1985]

So, they kept him long enough to finish the 2008 contender, using all he read in those 700+ pages, then they throw him out!
Sound like McLaren to me! :rolleyes:

wasn't he suspended since the whole saga started? in that case he couldn't do much then!

[ioan]

wasn't he suspended since the whole saga started? in that case he couldn't do much then!

Suspended, I never understood what was the idea behind this move. He was however payed by the McCheats, and working from home is so easy since the internet was invented.

[Rover V8]

Suspended, I never understood what was the idea behind this move. He was however payed by the McCheats, and working from home is so easy since the internet was invented.

If he's suspended then I doubt he's been allowed any contact with the factory- after all, if you're going to suspend a guy before firing him, the last thing you want to do is to give him access to any of your data or information before he's fired....

The reports said he hadn't been fired before 'for legal reasons'- I'm no expert on UK employment law, but AFAIK if you're firing someone, even for misconduct, it has to be done absolutely by the book, or you're running the risk of a counter-action for unfair dismissal- I suspect McLaren just kept him 'on ice' while they made sure their case for firing him was absolutely watertight