Don't try to con-fuze me with the FACTS

[Dave Brock]

How come the NASCAR fans can tolerate a whole new formula w/o going sideways and they are supposed to be the finicky ones
and yet the OPEN WHEEL guys who have just been given a reprieve from a series death sentence can't get behind the ONLY shred they have left, cars that are indistinguishable by 9/10ths of the population from the cars they were used to watching on bus routes?

Some people whine if they are hung by a new rope and some do when they're hung by an old one, even others whine when they're hung by thier OWN rope.....you just can't please everyone left swinging in the wind I guess. ;)

[SoCalPVguy]

How come the NASCAR fans can tolerate a whole new formula w/o going sideways and they are supposed to be the finicky ones
and yet the OPEN WHEEL guys who have just been given a reprieve from a series death sentence can't get behind the ONLY shred they have left, cars that are indistinguishable by 9/10ths of the population from the cars they were used to watching on bus routes?

Some people whine if they are hung by a new rope and some do when they're hung by an old one, even others whine when they're hung by thier OWN rope.....you just can't please everyone left swinging in the wind I guess. ;)

Good post. At 200 mph from the stands or on a TV shot 99.44% of the folks watching couldn't tell a dallara from a panoz from a lola from a falcon from a penske from a reynard from a lotus from a....

[grungex]

Nice statistic, where did you find it?

[bennybigb]

What do you mean 99% of the fans can't tell the difference between an IRL car and a ChampCar? Are you serious? Unless the fan is blind and deaf, they will be able to tell which car has the stupid hump on the back.

Why do you think ChampCar survived so long? Because the cars and venues were great. Not because PKV and Conquest where such awesome race teams, or because the constantly revolving door of no-name drivers demanded attention. It was all about the cars and venues.

Do you know what the IRL lacks? Cars and venues. Until that is fixed, the series will continue to fail.

[cartpix]

What I don't get is, a lot the CART teams & drivers are already in the IRL & a lot of the Champ Car teams & drivers are going to the IRL. A lot of the IRL drivers have gone on to NASCAR. So, what is left is mostly CART & Champ Car drivers that we watched & supported throughout the years. At least there's a series to watch those teams & drivers in. Now people are complaining because the cars are ugly. Like I said, I don't get it.

Jeff

[BenRoethig]

What do you mean 99% of the fans can't tell the difference between an IRL car and a ChampCar? Are you serious? Unless the fan is blind and deaf, they will be able to tell which car has the stupid hump on the back.

Why do you think ChampCar survived so long? Because the cars and venues were great. Not because PKV and Conquest where such awesome race teams, or because the constantly revolving door of no-name drivers demanded attention. It was all about the cars and venues.

Do you know what the IRL lacks? Cars and venues. Until that is fixed, the series will continue to fail.

They survived because of foreign road race money and personal fortunes. It sure wasn't because of all the sponsorship money flowing and unless there was the world's largest caravan the people at those venues weren't paying attention the following race.

[BenRoethig]

What I don't get is, a lot the CART teams & drivers are already in the IRL & a lot of the Champ Car teams & drivers are going to the IRL. A lot of the IRL drivers have gone on to NASCAR. So, what is left is mostly CART & Champ Car drivers that we watched & supported throughout the years. At least there's a series to watch those teams & drivers in. Now people are complaining because the cars are ugly. Like I said, I don't get it.

Jeff

What they want is a formula series like Champ Car and they want everyone to conform to what they like. These are not traditional American Open Wheel fans we're talking about here most of them gave up and started watching NASCAR, these are the hardcore road racing fans. They think in terms of superior and inferior formulas along the F1 ladder. If it isn't a road racing only series with a road racing only car and standing starts they consider and its fans to be inferior.

[!!WALDO!!]

Good post. At 200 mph from the stands or on a TV shot 99.44% of the folks watching couldn't tell a dallara from a panoz from a lola from a falcon from a penske from a reynard from a lotus from a....

Very good post. It was discovered that only 2% of the population of the U.S. are real race fans so about 6,000,000.

The rest are place fans. I reached in a post to find the real race fans I talked to over the years and last year. Only about 20% are real race fans, the rest are fans of a driver or of a place. It really doesn't matter if there is 1,000 in the stands or 250,000 the percentage is the same.

NASCAR claims they have 65,000,000 fans based on people in the stands and TV ratings. I guess it easier to convince the world that everyone watches or goes to one race.

A baseball team sell 25,000 Season Tickets for 81 games. According to some and attendance it is 2,025,000. But how many actually bought tickets? 25,000. So if they have attendance of 3,000,000 how many different fans bought tickets 1,000,000.

So the 6,000,000 fans are those that can be trusted to go to race after race and spend money. Without those people there will be plenty of empty stands.

[Dr. Krogshöj]

How come the NASCAR fans can tolerate a whole new formula....

I have a question. What do you think NASCAR fans would think if half of their schedule were restrictor place races?

I will watch Indycar this year, but I reserve the right to say that the current formula sucks. Because I think it does. It is my opinion as a fan. F1 fans have the right to say the current formula sucks, and NASCAR have the right to say that CoT sucks. (Many of them did.)

[!!WALDO!!]

How come the NASCAR fans can tolerate a whole new formula....


I have a question. What do you think NASCAR fans would think if half of their schedule were restrictor place races?

It is interesting their largest crowds are at restrictor plate races. I say plenty of empty seats at California, Las Vegas and Atlanta. Very few at Daytona.

Doesn't matter, I am blind anyways.

[qwinsee]

Very good post. It was discovered that only 2% of the population of the U.S. are real race fans so about 6,000,000.

The rest are place fans. I reached in a post to find the real race fans I talked to over the years and last year. Only about 20% are real race fans, the rest are fans of a driver or of a place. It really doesn't matter if there is 1,000 in the stands or 250,000 the percentage is the same.

NASCAR claims they have 65,000,000 fans based on people in the stands and TV ratings. I guess it easier to convince the world that everyone watches or goes to one race.

A baseball team sell 25,000 Season Tickets for 81 games. According to some and attendance it is 2,025,000. But how many actually bought tickets? 25,000. So if they have attendance of 3,000,000 how many different fans bought tickets 1,000,000.

So the 6,000,000 fans are those that can be trusted to go to race after race and spend money. Without those people there will be plenty of empty stands.

I'm grabbing my calculator, clickty, click, click, click! By my calculations you guys are 110% out to lunch. What a dumb post! "Why don't we all just start watching the IRL because it's all thats left and the cars look simular". You guys just don't get it!

[keysersoze]

What do you mean 99% of the fans can't tell the difference between an IRL car and a ChampCar? Are you serious? Unless the fan is blind and deaf, they will be able to tell which car has the stupid hump on the back.

Why do you think ChampCar survived so long? Because the cars and venues were great. Not because PKV and Conquest where such awesome race teams, or because the constantly revolving door of no-name drivers demanded attention. It was all about the cars and venues.

Do you know what the IRL lacks? Cars and venues. Until that is fixed, the series will continue to fail.

You forgot to write "IMO" after your post.

So by your (I hesitate to call it) "reasoning," Champcar should have been an overwhelming success. I mean, they HAD the cars and the venues, yes? "Cars" and "venues" are so far from the point it's laughable.

Formula 1 cars also have a, ahem, "stupid hump."

[SoCalPVguy]

What do you mean 99% of the fans can't tell the difference between an IRL car and a ChampCar? Are you serious? Unless the fan is blind and deaf, they will be able to tell which car has the stupid hump on the back.

Yep. Especially the drunk ones.

I remember going to Riverside with my high school buddies in the, er, ah, 70's... They could only tell the "cheese wedge" shaped ones versus the "cigar body" shaped ones.

[bennybigb]

You forgot to write "IMO" after your post.

So by your (I hesitate to call it) "reasoning," Champcar should have been an overwhelming success. I mean, they HAD the cars and the venues, yes? "Cars" and "venues" are so far from the point it's laughable.

Formula 1 cars also have a, ahem, "stupid hump."

Yes, ChampCar had the cars and the venues. But ChampCar lacked drivers, sponsors and Indy. My point was that ChampCar survived a very long time without Indy, and that is a testament to how strong the product was.

And yes, F1 cars also have a stupid hump. But since Formula 1 cars are the fastest racing cars on the planet, and sound the best, I don't think it matters what those cars look like. If you are going to have a dumbed down spec race car, at least make it look cool. And for God's sake, race in some good markets on some interesting tracks.

IMO of course.

[!!WALDO!!]

I'm grabbing my calculator, clickty, click, click, click! By my calculations you guys are 110% out to lunch. What a dumb post! "Why don't we all just start watching the IRL because it's all thats left and the cars look simular". You guys just don't get it!


You're right. You are always right. Heck I know nothing. All I am is a 17 year old female cat. What am I suppose to know?

Of course we don't get it. I was 8 weeks old when I cat napped from a barn in Waldo, WI. The humans kept talking about some one named A.J. who was hurt that day.

[Wilf]

Lets schedule a Concours d’Elegance for really GOOD looking open wheel cars at the venues where CCWS raced and we could add in a concert of 15 to 20 unlimitted rpm, turbo charged engines to provide added entertainment on Sundays. Just think, nobody wins, nobody loses and you don't have to pay the drivers. I can see the attendance numbers now!

[!!WALDO!!]

Lets schedule a Concours d’Elegance for really GOOD looking open wheel cars at the venues where CCWS raced and we could add in a concert of 15 to 20 unlimitted rpm, turbo charged engines to provide added entertainment on Sundays. Just think, nobody wins, nobody loses and you don't have to pay the drivers. I can see the attendance numbers now!


Like MOTOROCK?

[qwinsee]

[quote="!!WALDO!!"]You're right. You are always right. Heck I know nothing. All I am is a 17 year old female cat. What am I suppose to know?

Of course we don't get it. I was 8 weeks old when I cat napped from a barn in Waldo, WI. The humans kept talking about some one named A.J. who was hurt that day.[/QUOTE


Um, OK. calm dowm, sit, breath deeply. Hold on to your Danica hat and think happy thoughts.

[!!WALDO!!]

You're right. You are always right. Heck I know nothing. All I am is a 17 year old female cat. What am I suppose to know?

Of course we don't get it. I was 8 weeks old when I cat napped from a barn in Waldo, WI. The humans kept talking about some one named A.J. who was hurt that day.


Um, OK. calm dowm, sit, breath deeply. Hold on to your Danica hat and think happy thoughts.

Just telling you that you are dealing with an old cat. You said the old cat is wrong but you offer up nothing. I like "treats" so give something I can chew on.
My ex-master/current master gave me a Danica Bobblehead for me to wipe my paws on after I use the litterbox.

Give me "treats" and I will have "happy thoughts".

[CCWS77]

What they want is a formula series like Champ Car and they want everyone to conform to what they like. These are not traditional American Open Wheel fans we're talking about here most of them gave up and started watching NASCAR, these are the hardcore road racing fans. They think in terms of superior and inferior formulas along the F1 ladder. If it isn't a road racing only series with a road racing only car and standing starts they consider and its fans to be inferior.

My question would be what part of NASCAR owning traditional American oval racing don't you understand? Trying to build another oval based race series to beat them at thier own game and have Indy 500 beat Daytona 500 is a worse plan and is a bigger folly and more foolish then the 12 year open wheel split.

I think some of you have really missed the past decade? US television is totally saturated with oval racing and road racing is nowhere to be found. So the the problem that was hurting the IRL for the past decade was the OW split and some road racing series called Champ Car that no one ever heard of. really??

That thinking seems based on the simplistic idea that car count is the problem and you need lots of teams and all the available teams were split between 2 series. But is that really logical? Car count is a symptom of the problems not the cause. If the series is healthy in a free market new teams will appear, you now capitalism. Fighting over the existing teams at the expense of actually improving anything is the most short sighted thinking and that is what the OW war has been about.

In this way the merger is a temporary solution patching up a wound. It hasn't solved or improved anything. A merger might have worked if it took the best of both but take a look that isnt happening. This whole thing is just an excercise to boost the car count with the same failed formula the IRL has already been using.

If you have faith that the merger solves anything then that means you believe there was something Champ Car had that IRL needed. Besides a few more cars - I have yet to hear anyone explain what that might be.

[qwinsee]

Just telling you that you are dealing with an old cat. You said the old cat is wrong but you offer up nothing. I like "treats" so give something I can chew on.
My ex-master/current master gave me a Danica Bobblehead for me to wipe my paws on after I use the litterbox.

Give me "treats" and I will have "happy thoughts".

Didn't say you were wrong, I said the post was stupid and you guys don't get it! Go ahead and gloat, you deserve it. All nine of you IRL fans can sit in the stands giving each other high fives, whoo hoo. One series may be the best for OW racing in North America but they did it in the worst way. If you want to see see the stands fill up, you have to do more than "will" the other guys to your series. Its going to take some give and take and we have only seen take. Like I said, you don't get it!

[!!WALDO!!]

All nine of you IRL fans can sit in the stands giving each other high fives, whoo hoo.

9 fans and 70,000 seats sold at Chicagoland makes more money than Cleveland. So meow, I hope my human takes me for my birthday.

[Dave Brock]

What do you mean 99% of the fans can't tell the difference between an IRL car and a ChampCar? Are you serious? Unless the fan is blind and deaf, they will be able to tell which car has the stupid hump on the back.

Why do you think ChampCar survived so long? Because the cars and venues were great. Not because PKV and Conquest where such awesome race teams, or because the constantly revolving door of no-name drivers demanded attention. It was all about the cars and venues.

Do you know what the IRL lacks? Cars and venues. Until that is fixed, the series will continue to fail.


Inanimate objects are all without intellegence because they are not alive and therefore cannot be STUPID because there is no expectation of intellegence from rocks, rivers or carbon-fibre.
I think what you were trying but failed to communicate was, the humps are anomolous to the overall design OR the designer of the piece was stupid or that you fail to see the value the objects provide.

Stupid humps indeed!

[Dave Brock]

Didn't say you were wrong, I said the post was stupid and you guys don't get it! Go ahead and gloat, you deserve it. All nine of you IRL fans can sit in the stands giving each other high fives, whoo hoo. One series may be the best for OW racing in North America but they did it in the worst way. If you want to see see the stands fill up, you have to do more than "will" the other guys to your series. Its going to take some give and take and we have only seen take. Like I said, you don't get it!

SEE THE ABOVE POST

The POSTER can be accused of stupidity but a post can only be moronic, juvenile, sophmoric or ILL-logical, never stupid because they are words, just inanimate objects.
The person was states that " that car looks stupid" reveals much about their own lack of conceptualization & education.

[Wilf]

If you want to see see the stands fill up, you have to do more than "will" the other guys to your series. Its going to take some give and take and we have only seen take.

What would you like to see given?

How would you accomplish that?

[indycool]

I agree with the post that the guy in the stands or watching on TV, at 200 miles an hour, can't tell the difference between a DP-01, a Dallara or an '86 March. Unless you are specifically LOOKING for the "stupid hump," you aren't going to see it. They're all just formula cars with engines in the back and wings front and rear when it comes to watching them.

The GENERAL fan wants to know which car Danica is in (or Tracy or Marco Greco or whoever). So does the oval fan. IMO, it is the hardcore road racing fan who condescendingly wants to pick the fly crap out of pepper and show the rest of us that we should be focusing on enjoying or disliking something technical rather than who's racin' who.

Guess that's their privilege of what they like or don't like. Guess it's also my privilege to watch Danica race Helio, who's also racing Wheldon and Dixon without thinking about a "stupid hump." And it's also my privilege not to feel the least bit inferior about it.

[Rudy Tamasz]

Just FYI. When my wife (not a hardcore racing fan by any standard) saw a CCWS race last year, she said 'Why did they switch to this car? It's pretty bland, I liked the old one better'.

Never assume people around you are simple-minded and stupid because it is you who may turn out to be simple-minded. Racing has always been a pretty intelligent sport and racing fans were more knowledgeable than football fans. It is very important to attract general fans but it is equally important to keep educated fans happy by improving the technical side of things.

[indycool]

Rudy, point taken, but I didn't SAY that anyone was stupid. I'm saying that who is racing who is more important to the general race fan, IMO. The DP-01 was supposed to be the cat's meow, the secret microwave weapon to sail CC o'er the ramparts. Didn't change a thing as far as attendance or TV ratings were concerned.

[jimispeed]

Rudy, point taken, but I didn't SAY that anyone was stupid. I'm saying that who is racing who is more important to the general race fan, IMO. The DP-01 was supposed to be the cat's meow, the secret microwave weapon to sail CC o'er the ramparts. Didn't change a thing as far as attendance or TV ratings were concerned.


Don't even try that !!!

The DP01 wasn't the problem, the management and everything that follows was the problem.

The DP01 is a fantastic car that hadn't even reached its potential!!

So far, this whole "Merge with the IRL" thing is turning out very ugly....


But, I guess we have no choice, but to wait and see what TG will build with his "New" series.....

[garyshell]

Rudy, point taken, but I didn't SAY that anyone was stupid. I'm saying that who is racing who is more important to the general race fan, IMO. The DP-01 was supposed to be the cat's meow, the secret microwave weapon to sail CC o'er the ramparts. Didn't change a thing as far as attendance or TV ratings were concerned.


Don't even try that !!!

The DP01 wasn't the problem, the management and everything that follows was the problem.

The DP01 is a fantastic car that hadn't even reached its potential!!


Jimi, don't let you love for the looks of the DP01 (which I agree with) get in the way of your reading understanding. He didn't say it was the problem, he said it wasn't the solution it was touted to be. There is a huge difference.

Gary

[grungex]

He's also claiming people are too blind/stupid/indifferent to notice the difference between cars, which, besides being wrong, is rather insulting.

[jimispeed]

Jimi, don't let you love for the looks of the DP01 (which I agree with) get in the way of your reading understanding. He didn't say it was the problem, he said it wasn't the solution it was touted to be. There is a huge difference.

Gary


Very true, but the fact stands, the DP01 hadn't gotten the chance to fall into further development. It's maiden voyage was better than expected IMO...

I wish we could have seen it tested on an oval as well......

[nanders]

Very true, but the fact stands, the DP01 hadn't gotten the chance to fall into further development. It's maiden voyage was better than expected IMO...

I wish we could have seen it tested on an oval as well......

IMO the DP01 looked pretty cool. But not that much better then the Lola. For me a history re-read could possibly make me conclude maybe CCWS should have stuck with the Lola ...... forget I just said that.

[garyshell]

Very true, but the fact stands, the DP01 hadn't gotten the chance to fall into further development. It's maiden voyage was better than expected IMO...

I wish we could have seen it tested on an oval as well......


Jimi,

I agree with that 1000% and quite frankly I suspect we may still get to see that. The IRL has said in 2010 there will be a new car for ICS, I would be VERY surprised if Panoz didn't submit a variant of the DP01 for consideration. I would also be REALLY surprised if they don't test a version well before then. I know that they have an airbox that will fit the DP01 to accommodate a naturally aspirated engine.

Gary

[garyshell]

Good post. At 200 mph from the stands or on a TV shot 99.44% of the folks watching couldn't tell a dallara from a panoz from a lola from a falcon from a penske from a reynard from a lotus from a....


I agree with the post that the guy in the stands or watching on TV, at 200 miles an hour, can't tell the difference between a DP-01, a Dallara or an '86 March. Unless you are specifically LOOKING for the "stupid hump," you aren't going to see it. They're all just formula cars with engines in the back and wings front and rear when it comes to watching them.


He's also claiming people are too blind/stupid/indifferent to notice the difference between cars, which, besides being wrong, is rather insulting.


I see no mention of blindness, stupidity or indifference in either the original post or the reply. Those are YOUR words and YOUR interpretation of the conversation. While the 99.44% number is certainly hyperbole, I think the jist of it is right. To the average TV viewer or the crowd at the Indy 500, there is little difference in the cars, as stated. Now if you go to a smaller venue, say MidOhio or Road America, where folks have to make a real effort to get there (as opposed to the street circuits where folks might show up on a whim), you obviously get a different caliber of eyeballs. A more discerning set of eyeballs. One that can and will notice the difference.

Gary

[Rudy Tamasz]

Laugh at me guys, but I still miss the old Lola.

[garyshell]

Laugh at me guys, but I still miss the old Lola.


No reason to laugh at that!!! Hell, I miss the Eagles, the Reynards, the Renskes, the Marchs etc. etc. etc.

Gary

[indycool]

Well stated, Gary. Permanent road courses probably have the most hardcore gearheads in the sport. Main reason is that all the members of the SCCA, their relatives and friends, are used to being part of the sport as an amateur hobby, really the only form of motorsports that IS an amateur hobby, and consequently have more "firsthand knowledge" than others. Those and the vintage guys. And that's fine. But it does not translate equally into the step-up-to-the-ticket-booth-and-buy-one fan.

[garyshell]

Well stated, Gary. Permanent road courses probably have the most hardcore gearheads in the sport. Main reason is that all the members of the SCCA, their relatives and friends, are used to being part of the sport as an amateur hobby, really the only form of motorsports that IS an amateur hobby, and consequently have more "firsthand knowledge" than others. Those and the vintage guys. And that's fine. But it does not translate equally into the step-up-to-the-ticket-booth-and-buy-one fan.

Yes, but it's not just the SCCA hobbyists and the vintage folks either. There is another group that I am guessing is even larger than that. Look at the crowds at MidOhio in CART's day or at the IMSA GT, or ALMS today. There were quite a few more folks there than could be attributed to those two "classes" you mention. But they were not the "step-up-to-the-ticket-booth-and-buy-one fan" either. MidOhio is out in the sticks, you have to make a planned decision to go. I am not sure what label I'd even put on that lot (of which I am a "card carrying" member), but they are no doubt hardcore gear heads. And they will notice differences in the cars. My wife, my nephew and his wife who always accompany us to the track... they all fall into that clan, the non SCCA, non vintage hobbyists who show up year in and year out. But to be sure, we are in a small minority when you include the TV viewers over the entire year and the 100's of thousands on race day at the 500.

Gary

[indycool]

Can't argue with that at all......but of your group, what percentage of how the car looks (or the paint job?) represents the enjoyment you get out of an Indycar race at Mid-Ohio, a track, incidentally, that I like very much?

[garyshell]

Can't argue with that at all......but of your group, what percentage of how the car looks (or the paint job?) represents the enjoyment you get out of an Indycar race at Mid-Ohio, a track, incidentally, that I like very much?


A marginal percentage to be sure, but that was not the question. The question was would they notice. And to answer that question, of "my" group (i.e. the die hard MidOhio regulars) they notice the difference in look from one car to another. But as far as contributing to the enjoyment it matters VERY little. Less than 5% and most likely less than 1%, if truth be told.

Case in point, I absolutely HATE, DESPISE and ABHOR the look of damn near all of the GrandAm cars. But I still absolutely LOVE to watch them race.

Gary

[nanders]

Yes, but it's not just the SCCA hobbyists and the vintage folks either. There is another group that I am guessing is even larger than that. Look at the crowds at MidOhio in CART's day or at the IMSA GT, or ALMS today. There were quite a few more folks there than could be attributed to those two "classes" you mention. But they were not the "step-up-to-the-ticket-booth-and-buy-one fan" either. MidOhio is out in the sticks, you have to make a planned decision to go. I am not sure what label I'd even put on that lot (of which I am a "card carrying" member), but they are no doubt hardcore gear heads. And they will notice differences in the cars. My wife, my nephew and his wife who always accompany us to the track... they all fall into that clan, the non SCCA, non vintage hobbyists who show up year in and year out. But to be sure, we are in a small minority when you include the TV viewers over the entire year and the 100's of thousands on race day at the 500.

Gary

Isn't Mid-Ohio unique in the regard that it's has great camping and shower facilities, where some place like Road America is kind of lacking at?

Because of that MO is a very good place for a family outing? Even if you have a hotel you can still rent a towel and and take a shower for a reasonable price. There's not very many places where that can happen. MO has that figured out better then anyplace that I know of.

Mid-Ohio is like a national park with a race track.

[garyshell]

Isn't Mid-Ohio unique in the regard that it's has great camping and shower facilities, where some place like Road America is kind of lacking at?

Because of that MO is a very good place for a family outing? Even if you have a hotel you can still rent a towel and and take a shower for a reasonable price. There's not very many places where that can happen. MO has that figured out better then anyplace that I know of.

Mid-Ohio is like a national park with a race track.


No argument in any of that. When Jim Trueman (of Red Roof Inns, ever notice the red tile roofs around MidOhio?) took it over years ago he immediately did a lot of things to improve the place. And his daughter Michelle has done a lot to continue her dad's legacy. I think his understanding of the motel industry contributed a lot to his understanding of what it meant to make a place fan friendly. From the aforementioned facilities to the spectator mounds, widening of the cross over bridge to the zero tolerance of obnoxious drunkenness it all makes for a great place to take a family.

A few years back I took my extended family, my wife, my dad, my sister, her husband, their two sons with their wives and families, 13 of us in all. Most of them for the first time ever. At the end of the day my sister said, "Now I understand why you have been coming here all these years". The rest of the first timers in the crew all readily agreed. The highlight of that day was the look on her face (and others) when we were about to go to the paddock and she started to gather up all her stuff mumbling about what a hassle it was going to be to schlep all this junk there and back, whereupon I told her it was perfectly safe to leave everything except her purse right where it was. That REALLY sealed the deal for her.

Gary

[indycool]

Understand your point, Gary......

[grungex]

I see no mention of blindness, stupidity or indifference in either the original post or the reply. Those are YOUR words and YOUR interpretation of the conversation. While the 99.44% number is certainly hyperbole, I think the jist of it is right. To the average TV viewer or the crowd at the Indy 500, there is little difference in the cars, as stated. Now if you go to a smaller venue, say MidOhio or Road America, where folks have to make a real effort to get there (as opposed to the street circuits where folks might show up on a whim), you obviously get a different caliber of eyeballs. A more discerning set of eyeballs. One that can and will notice the difference.

Gary

I am constantly amazed that fanatics posting on web boards always think they somehow know what "casual race fans" or the "average viewer" (whatever that means) are and are not aware of when watching motorsports. The very idea is ludicrous. As far as my interpretation of the incorrect observations by the posters goes, it is (rightly) colored by those posters prior posting habits. IMO.