Your turn, TTE...

[veeten]

as if Toyota's F1 outfit didn't need any more pressure...

Joe Gibbs Racing finally gets their NASCAR effort their first win in the Sprint Cup series after two years as a manufacturer entry. :)

Six years after their entry in F1, TTE hasn't even placed in the top 5, muchales a podium finish. :s

Earlier this year, Toyota's brass have made it clear that there better be podiums and wins in the offing, or else. The NASCAR effort is returning on its effort, while the F1 team is still mired in the back of the pack. The possible outcome could be that they give everything over to Williams and close up shop.

Fans may differ on this issue, but it's Toyota's boardroom that will get final say on where the racing budget is distributed. And knowing Toyota's past, if it's not returning in the form of wins, it's not long for this world.

So, TTE, the clock is ticking... :dozey:

[Tazio]

I think that speaks more to the point of the relative ease of producing a winning "Stock Car" than the failiar of Toyota F1. But you are right. It's time for Toyota F1 to start producing Obviously unseating established teams in F1 is a Hurculean task. Just ask BMW!

[JSH]

Maybe Joe Gibbs needs to take over the F1 operation? :p :

[ioan]

Six years after their entry in F1, TTE hasn't even placed in the top 5, muchales a podium finish. :s


Funny, I was sure that Toyota drivers already got a few podium finishes. But maybe I'm wrong.
Could anyone check this?!

[maxu05]

Podium finishes from Toyota :s hock: Look out Ferrari, here they come :laugh:

[ArrowsFA1]

Funny, I was sure that Toyota drivers already got a few podium finishes. But maybe I'm wrong.
Could anyone check this?!
You're right ioan, Toyota have 6 podiums so far.

[ioan]

You're right ioan, Toyota have 6 podiums so far.

Thanks Arrows, I was worried that my memory is already fading! :D ;)

[woody2goody]

Just for fun: can we name them all?

Here I go:

Malaysia 2005 (Trulli)
Australia 2006 (R Schumacher)?

that's all I can think of. Any help? :)

[ioan]

Just for fun: can we name them all?

Here I go:

Malaysia 2005 (Trulli)
Australia 2006 (R Schumacher)?

that's all I can think of. Any help? :)

Try wikipedia! ;)

[jjanicke]

I think that speaks more to the point of the relative ease of producing a winning "Stock Car" than the failiar of Toyota F1. But you are right. It's time for Toyota F1 to start producing Obviously unseating established teams in F1 is a Hurculean task. Just ask BMW!

Certainly F1 requires more R&D than stock car. That said I also think NASCAR's introduction of the new spec car (COT) has made the progress for toyota much easier.

The real question is why the FIA keeps f'ing around with these little incremental worthless rule changes, when clearly a revolution, ala COT, is needed!!!

[veeten]

sorry,... 4 3rd place finishes in total. 3 in '05 with a 4th place in the WCC, 1 in '06 with an 8th place.

way too many DNF's and not enough results that matter. And, as I said before, this is 6 years going on. When compared to other racing efforts that Toyota has been a part of, this feels more like a waste of money than an attempt to prove themselves in a major series.
With yet another change in driver lineup and another overhaul in the staff, we go through another season with hopeful asperations, but knowing that it could just be a repeat of past failures to be competitive.

to repeat: TTE, the clock is ticking...

[jso1985]

Just for fun: can we name them all?

Here I go:

Malaysia 2005 (Trulli)
Australia 2006 (R Schumacher)?

that's all I can think of. Any help? :)

Bahrain 2005(Trulli)
Spain 2005(Trulli)
Hungary 2005(Schumacher)
China 2005(Schumacher)

Guess Toyota has even more pressure now, besides that they actually got worse at it in the last season they now have the NASCAR team showing theme they can actually win.

[ioan]

sorry,... 4 3rd place finishes in total. 3 in '05 with a 4th place in the WCC, 1 in '06 with an 8th place.

way too many DNF's and not enough results that matter. And, as I said before, this is 6 years going on. When compared to other racing efforts that Toyota has been a part of, this feels more like a waste of money than an attempt to prove themselves in a major series.
With yet another change in driver lineup and another overhaul in the staff, we go through another season with hopeful asperations, but knowing that it could just be a repeat of past failures to be competitive.

to repeat: TTE, the clock is ticking...

4th place in the WCC and you say that's nothing?!
They are not competing against Trabant and Wartburg but against the likes of Ferrari, McL&C, BMW, Williams etc.
4th place, given the level of the opposition, is a good result for a new team with zero F1 knowledge before year 2000.

I don't understand what people are expecting to happen with 11 teams in F1 and only one WCC title each season! :rolleyes:

[ioan]

Bahrain 2005(Trulli)
Spain 2005(Trulli)
Hungary 2005(Schumacher)
China 2005(Schumacher)

Guess Toyota has even more pressure now, besides that they actually got worse at it in the last season they now have the NASCAR team showing theme they can actually win.

3 podiums each for Toyota! :eek:
Shows what a good driver can do with an average car. And still people were saying RS is no good!

[jso1985]

and the Australia and Hungary ones were pure driving talent merit!
and not forget that he could have won Belgium 05 if the team wouldn't had screwed his race with the tyre strategy.

Problem is that Ralf didn't have many "inspired" days like those ones or France 03 for example

[wedge]

Comparing NASCAR to F1 is completely different and sad excuse at bashing Toyota.

NASCAR are silhouette race cars because of parity. Aero mods between a Toyota, Ford and Chevy are very minor - mainly the headlights and grill.

Therefore there wasn't much surprise at Toyota winning races this year because Joe Gibbs Racing is a top team in NASCAR, excellent engineers and race car preparation. They won titles with different brands over the past decade and no doubt they can do the same with Toyota.

In F1 they're building a bespoke car.

In F1 it's more about having the right package.

Spyker ran Ferrari engines but that doesn't necessarily mean they're challenging for race wins.

The engine and gearbox affects weight distribution, aero via the cowling, bodywork, radiators, sidepods.

[veeten]

4th place in the WCC and you say that's nothing?!

it is, when you can't back it up with similar or better results. from 4th to 8th in one season, and no better after that. Keeping pace with the Spykers' and Super Aguris' of the racing world says volumes about a teams' and manufacturers' capability. And that's not much...


They are not competing against Trabant and Wartburg but against the likes of Ferrari, McL&C, BMW, Williams etc.
4th place, given the level of the opposition, is a good result for a new team with zero F1 knowledge before year 2000.

The problem was that they didn't maintain, they slid. Quickly. The only difference is that Toyota has a little more money than the others, and has used it poorly when it comes to their performance. Otherwise, they would be in the top 5 for more than one season.


I don't understand what people are expecting to happen with 11 teams in F1 and only one WCC title each season! :rolleyes:

It's simple: either win the WCC or be in the running (Top 5) every year, not just show up and hope that getting noticed is enough. It's a "what have you done for me, lately" world, and the 'big red T' hasn't been doing much...

[Osella]

Comparing NASCAR to F1 is completely different and sad excuse at bashing Toyota.

NASCAR are silhouette race cars because of parity. Aero mods between a Toyota, Ford and Chevy are very minor - mainly the headlights and grill.

Therefore there wasn't much surprise at Toyota winning races this year because Joe Gibbs Racing is a top team in NASCAR, excellent engineers and race car preparation. They won titles with different brands over the past decade and no doubt they can do the same with Toyota.

In F1 they're building a bespoke car.

In F1 it's more about having the right package. .

Actually, it's pretty much equal in terms of having the right package I'd say.
But I do agree with you about the JGR point. It was pretty obvious when Gibbs announced they were switching to Toyota that Toyota were going to win in NASCAR this season. But it does prove the very point that TTE are not getting the job done.
Toyota in the US realised they needed to hook up with one of the very best teams out there to get their cars to the front, Toyota in F1 were bloody-minded and wouldn't do that because that's what Honda did when they signed up with Jordan (a top team at the time..!), so they only have themselves to blame if they can't do the job!!

[wmcot]

Try wikipedia! ;)

Who placed on the podium there??? ;)

[wmcot]

Comparing NASCAR to F1 is completely different and sad excuse at bashing Toyota.

NASCAR are silhouette race cars because of parity. Aero mods between a Toyota, Ford and Chevy are very minor - mainly the headlights and grill.


Actually the are all running the "Car of Tomorrow" body so the only difference on the outside of the car are the stickers that look somewhat like a Toyota headlight, grill, tail light, etc. I'm not even sure Toyota makes the actual engines for their NASCAR team - it could be outsourced. (I don't recall Toyota selling a car with a big block V8 in it?)

For all purposes, NASCAR is another 1 make series except different manufacturers have engines built for them.

[ioan]

Toyota in the US realised they needed to hook up with one of the very best teams out there to get their cars to the front, Toyota in F1 were bloody-minded and wouldn't do that because that's what Honda did when they signed up with Jordan (a top team at the time..!), so they only have themselves to blame if they can't do the job!!

It doesn't look like Honda's move was better at all.
In fact, since they bought out BAR (and that's when they started calling the decisions, they did worse than Toyota. One fortuitous win in Hungary it's all they have to show, and the back of the grid with SAF1 almost outscoring them! :D

[pino]

This year, Jarno will give Toyota their first win ever :p :

[Bleu]

Toyota engines have six podiums?
Toyota team ones plus Monteiro @ Indy '05 and Wurz @ Montreal '07

[ioan]

Toyota engines have six podiums?
Toyota team ones plus Monteiro @ Indy '05 and Wurz @ Montreal '07

That makes it 8 podiums for Toyota engines.

[maxu05]

Makes me want to rush out and buy a Toyota :D

[leopard]

Compared to any mid-front runners, Toyota is the youngest team. There must be a lot of thing they have to learn in order that they become a winning team. The first thing they have to reorganize is driver structure seeing the fact that Williams scored more points than the factory team (I am not saying Trulli has no capacity, Pino ;) ).

Toyota performs superbly in Nascar, someday they will do the same in F1, as advised all drivers will have to acknowledge that The car in front is Toyota. ;)

[BoilerIMS]

I'm not even sure Toyota makes the actual engines for their NASCAR team - it could be outsourced. (I don't recall Toyota selling a car with a big block V8 in it?)

Toyota builds all their NASCAR engines at Toyota Racing Development, so the teams have no responsibilities in tuning, rebuilds,etc. Obviously, the engine has no connection with a Toyota production block, unlike the American-manufacturer V8s that, at least in theory, are related to production blocks. Apparently, the Toyota V8 a "great" engine, insofar as one can call a push-rod, carbureted engine "great." One engineer called it "the best Chevy small-block V8 I have ever seen."

[wmcot]

Toyota builds all their NASCAR engines at Toyota Racing Development, so the teams have no responsibilities in tuning, rebuilds,etc. Obviously, the engine has no connection with a Toyota production block, unlike the American-manufacturer V8s that, at least in theory, are related to production blocks. Apparently, the Toyota V8 a "great" engine, insofar as one can call a push-rod, carbureted engine "great." One engineer called it "the best Chevy small-block V8 I have ever seen."

Shows you the extent of my knowledge of NASCAR. I'm usually asleep by 10 laps into the race (if I make it through the pre-race at all)... :)

[Osella]

Toyota builds all their NASCAR engines at Toyota Racing Development, so the teams have no responsibilities in tuning, rebuilds,etc. Obviously, the engine has no connection with a Toyota production block, unlike the American-manufacturer V8s that, at least in theory, are related to production blocks. Apparently, the Toyota V8 a "great" engine, insofar as one can call a push-rod, carbureted engine "great." One engineer called it "the best Chevy small-block V8 I have ever seen."

Did...once Gibbs got on board (who built their own Chevy motors, and before that their own Pontiacs) Toyota took a different route and asked what Gibbs did to make their engines so good. TRD have an open system when it comes to technology exchange. Their teams are free to make modifications and upgrades to the motors, but they have to share them with the group so all the Toyota's benefit. At Daytona this year for instance, JGR engine, chassis and suspension guys were seconded to the other Toyota teams at test days and practices to help push all the Toyota teams forwards, and Gibbs still rebuild their own motors..

[jens]

Oh, how much I would like to see Toyota finally making some progress this year in F1 to finally silence the critics. Actually I have never seen so much hype and attention around Toyota F1 team before a season like this year. Also I have never seen Toyota hyping themselves so much before like after the last testing. Usually they keep lower profile. The expectations have been pushed so high that I can't wait for the start of the season.

I have recently written several comments about how much does experience count in F1 and indeed Toyota's F1 team is different to others as they decided to build up the team from zero (not to buy someone) - a brave respectable step IMO. :) As they haven't been keen on bringing experience into the team, then learning all the ropes in F1 takes even more time...

What the drivers have in the past brought out as the main reason of struggle is indeed the lack of experience in the team. In this pre-season Trulli has again praised that there is now more experience in the team (for example praised the input of Frank Dernie) and that the team listens to him more than ever before. Right or wront? Don't know.

They have their own way - what they call 'Toyota Way' - and they seem to manage the team differently. While it has seemed not to work, then strangely (a strange person as I am :) ) it has been sympathetic to me and makes them likeable. :p : They are different from other teams, they have the bravery to try something different and are not giving up easily - therefore have headstrong attitude to continue on the same route. And if - IF - they finally succeed, then it would be a historical moment as with their methods it has never been done before. :p :

[A.F.F.]

Has anyone ever counted how much they have spent for each point ?

[BoilerIMS]

Did...once Gibbs got on board (who built their own Chevy motors, and before that their own Pontiacs) Toyota took a different route and asked what Gibbs did to make their engines so good. TRD have an open system when it comes to technology exchange. Their teams are free to make modifications and upgrades to the motors, but they have to share them with the group so all the Toyota's benefit. At Daytona this year for instance, JGR engine, chassis and suspension guys were seconded to the other Toyota teams at test days and practices to help push all the Toyota teams forwards, and Gibbs still rebuild their own motors..

Good info... that would explain why Toyota "got mojo" all of a sudden. (Plus the Gibbs team has chassis setup experience. How TRD thought a bunch of startup teams would succeed is beyond me.)

[Rollo]

Oh please, a carburettored, 2-valve per cylinder, single cam-in-block, push rod, V8? I'm sorry but this isn't exactly the age of technological wizardry here. This sort of technology was last seen on road cars about 20 years ago.
From a technical standpoint, a Kia Rio employs more advanced technology than the dinosaurs of NASCAR.

I'd be willing to bet that any manufacturer when placed in NASCAR, provided they could find the crew chiefs and tacticians could win the thing and that's where the challenge lies.

[Osella]

From a technical standpoint, a Kia Rio employs more advanced technology than the dinosaurs of NASCAR.

I'd be willing to bet that any manufacturer when placed in NASCAR, provided they could find the crew chiefs and tacticians could win the thing and that's where the challenge lies.

But a Kia Rio can't develop 850bhp at 9000 rpm reliable for 500 miles.. ;)
And the challenge surely lies in making the best of a very restrictive rulebook, oarticularly for a manufacturer new to the sport. Kind of like F1 don't you think? :p

And F1 engines only have 4 valves per cylinder.. ;)

[wmcot]

From a technical standpoint, a Kia Rio employs more advanced technology than the dinosaurs of NASCAR.

And better styling!

[jso1985]

Has anyone ever counted how much they have spent for each point ?

I don't know their exact budget spent every year, but if it's around 400 millions, means they have spent around 2400 millions since 2002, having scored 163 points since then, they have spent 15 millions per point, which is certainly helluva more than any other mid-field team, the slowest gets it worse anyway, if Midland spent "only" 80 millions in 2006, they spent an "error" on my calculator for each point :p

[wmcot]

I don't know their exact budget spent every year, but if it's around 400 millions, means they have spent around 2400 millions since 2002, having scored 163 points since then, they have spent 15 millions per point, which is certainly helluva more than any other mid-field team, the slowest gets it worse anyway, if Midland spent "only" 80 millions in 2006, they spent an "error" on my calculator for each point :p

Of course you have to take into account the inflation rate of currency in each country so 2002 points cost more than 2007 points??? :)

[veeten]

as I said, sell to Williams. It's a better deal. :o ;)

[jens]

Typical Toyota - whenever there is a bit pace, then there's zero reliability (Glock's gearbox yesterday and Trulli's electronics today). :down: They'll finish 9th in this year's WCC. :s And "good old Jarno" is back - during his career I have seen more than enough his car breaking down from decent positions. This will prolly never change...

It's a especially shame that it all happened in a race, where there were a lot of retirements and by only finishing it would have meant some good points... but no!

[veeten]

Well, Well, Well... I remember starting this thread over a year ago, and now witness the result...

The Toyota F1 team,... D.O.A... :bones:
The NASCAR program,... Alive and Kicking... :bounce:

If only they had taken a similar road and provided engine/powertrain support, they would still be around. But, alas...

[ShiftingGears]

4th place in the WCC and you say that's nothing?!
They are not competing against Trabant and Wartburg but against the likes of Ferrari, McL&C, BMW, Williams etc.
4th place, given the level of the opposition, is a good result for a new team with zero F1 knowledge before year 2000.

I don't understand what people are expecting to happen with 11 teams in F1 and only one WCC title each season! :rolleyes:

Results that reflected the amount of resources poured into Toyota's F1 team.

[I am evil Homer]

NASCAR and F1 are very different. TTE seemed to do okay in rallying as I recall (i'll include the brilliant cheat that got them banned as it was enginerring of the highest order) but for whatever reason they just didn't get F1 right.

Not sure Toyota ever wanted to just do F1 engines but maybe they should have done and partnered with a team to do that. Red Bull needs a power plant.....