So is Toronto popular?

[!!WALDO!!]

http://www.thestar.com/Sports/article/309875



"While the Toronto Race was one of the marquee events on the Champ Car schedule, over the last few years it has sustain (sic) substantial losses and was one of the most expensive venues in the Champ Car circuit," the report shows. "Because of substantial financial losses in recent years, the 2005 licence fee charged by the Board to the then-Molson Indy was reduced by $200,000 from $528,000 (2004) to $328,000 (2005), which reduction continued in 2006, 2007 and 2008."

FYI

[CGormally]

Personally, I liked the Toronto circuit. It was only a short lap but it had a decent blend of fast straights and slow corners, so some overtaking was guaranteed.

[!!WALDO!!]

Personally, I liked the Toronto circuit. It was only a short lap but it had a decent blend of fast straights and slow corners, so some overtaking was guaranteed.

Looks like it is over.

[CGormally]

Looks like it is over.

That's a shame.

[!!WALDO!!]

That's a shame.

If it loses money and is the most expensive race to do then get rid of it and bring back Cleveland or Mosport.

[the bro]

First off this guy is a stick and ball reporter and is not a motorsports reporter. As most of you race fans know, a lot of stick and ball reporters really don't like motorsport. Not saying that the article is biased or anything, just a background note.

Name one race (IRL or Champcar) that hasn't diminished in attendance and otherwise in the last several years.

Paul

[994ever]

Toronto fans are knowledgeable, and would come back in droves to a unified series if the product becomes watchable again at some point. They would have no trouble regaining a big time primary sponsor.

However, it doesn't take a genius to figure out that the IRL and the ardent Tony apologists are going to latch onto stuff like this and cling to it for all it is worth as they cancel all of the old CC races and continue to patronize such cosmopolitan population centres like Iowa and Kentucky.

[!!WALDO!!]

First off this guy is a stick and ball reporter and is not a motorsports reporter. As most of you race fans know, a lot of stick and ball reporters really don't like motorsport. Not saying that the article is biased or anything, just a background note.

Name one race (IRL or Champcar) that hasn't diminished in attendance and otherwise in the last several years.

Paul

Ok, so explain to us why this report is wrong? Do not talk about the reporter but the report.

[!!WALDO!!]

Toronto fans are knowledgeable, and would come back in droves to a unified series if the product becomes watchable again at some point. They would have no trouble regaining a big time primary sponsor.

Where were the major sponsors last year?


However, it doesn't take a genius to figure out that the IRL and the ardent Tony apologists are going to latch onto stuff like this and cling to it for all it is worth as they cancel all of the old CC races and continue to patronize such cosmopolitan population centres like Iowa and Kentucky.

Spin it back to TG. Did you know the Trans Am raced on the streets of Des Moines? Ever heard of Cincinnatti or Lousville? Kentucky is between those cities.

If a race costs $16,000,000 to do and 200,000 come in over 3 days and 50,000 are free, how many do you need to break even at a $70.00 average for Saturday and Sunday?

A money loser in the millions cannot continue without the city and government paying the bills. That appears not going to happen.

Such is life.

[geek49203]

I've already gotten my 2009 summer calendar out, and Toronto looks doubtful for a number of reasons:

1. Consider some other venues that compete for fans in the Ontario market: Watkins Glen - 280 miles, Cleveland - 290 miles, Montreal - 370 miles, Detroit - 230 miles, and Michigan Speedway - 300 miles. I think you should add in the Canadian Grand Prix as well.

2. Worse yet, all of those venues, plus Chicago, Iowa, Kentucy, Nashville, Milwaukee, Road America and Mid-Ohio, compete for roughly 13 dates in the months of June, July and August (minus 2 weekends that the IRL won't run: Brickyard weekend, and another date should F1 return to Indy).

So, here is my list, based on calendaring, the contracts (as I understand them), tradition, attendance, etc etc. Yes, I believe that former IRL races will win every conflict.

Safe Races
Miami-Homestead
St. Petersburg
Surfer’s (new contract)
Motegi (Honda)
Long Beach
Kansas (outside of Midwest with good attendance)
Indy
Texas
Richmond
Nashville (Firestone)
Mid-Ohio (Honda)
Detroit (Penske)
Chicagoland (season-ending race)

Possible Odd Men Out (6 races, open 4 weekends)
Iowa (new venue, race wasn’t good, 30,000 seats)
Kentucky (very close to Indy)
Cleveland (Midwestern venue)
Toronto (was once a gem in CART)
Portland (far away from Indy, which is good)
Edmonton (also far away from Indy… and everything else for that matter)


Has position, but still questionable future
Milwaukee (Texas wants that date, event has been struggling, demise justifies Elkhart Lake or clears way for another Odd Man)
Watkins Glen (demise would give date to Toronto, but might take an odd-man position later in the year)
Infineon (We’ll see how it goes?)


Probably Dead for 09
Michigan (burned out market, ISC track)
Houston
Assen, Jerez, Zolder, Mexico (not in sponsor’s current market)
Elkhart Lake (events at Chicagoland, Milwaukee, and possibly Iowa)
Leguna Seca (already event at Infineon)
Mt. Tremblant
Phoenix (either venue)
Las Vegas (either venue)

[994ever]

Where were the major sponsors last year?



Spin it back to TG. Did you know the Trans Am raced on the streets of Des Moines? Ever heard of Cincinnatti or Lousville? Kentucky is between those cities.

If a race costs $16,000,000 to do and 200,000 come in over 3 days and 50,000 are free, how many do you need to break even at a $70.00 average for Saturday and Sunday?

A money loser in the millions cannot continue without the city and government paying the bills. That appears not going to happen.

Such is life.

What the article tells us (or at least those of us who can read):

-the race was losing money since 2005.
-the race didn't have a big time sponsor after Molson left.

What anyone with half a brain and a knowledge of the history of the event can tell you:

-When the Molson Indy hosted a unified CART series (and for many years after the split) no one was complaining about losing money and the crowds were much bigger.
-Tickets have basically been given away the past couple of years because CC's product has been unwatchable and because the split has taken its toll.

You can complain that I'm "spinning it back to TG" till you're blue in the face, but my bottom line is: a) if what Tony's been spouting about CART being the goal is true and comes to pass, the Toronto race would easily find a title sponsor and would return to what it was during the CART days and b) anyone that believes Tony has any intention of trying to grow the sport beyond the current IRL should email me because I can sell them the Brooklyn Bridge at a very reasonable price.

[!!WALDO!!]

Iowa (new venue, race wasn’t good, 30,000 seats) Owned by Rusty Wallace, if the IRL leaves the track will fail. So it is a go. Temp seats can be brought in and since an IRL show nets out to $500,000 at 30,000 fans does the show make money? Yes!!!


Kentucky (very close to Indy)
Plus the biggest crowd of a non ISC track. Again it is important for the survival of this track to have a ICS race. Close to Indy causes "travel" costs to be lower which are positives. Being close to the fan base is also a positive not a negative like you are assuming.


Has position, but still questionable future
Milwaukee (Texas wants that date, event has been struggling, demise justifies Elkhart Lake or clears way for another Odd Man)

Again a $500,000 show net, $1,500,000 total cost with what the track needs, how many at $30.00 average do you need on Saturday and Sunday.
CART/CCWS lost money the ICS does not.

Watkins Glen (demise would give date to Toronto, but might take an odd-man position later in the year)
Infineon (We’ll see how it goes?)

Each have races that pay them $8,000,000 in TV revenue plus another $8,000,000 in net revenue from one race. So the ICS are more or less free shows.



Probably Dead for 09
Michigan (burned out market, ISC track)

This track makes $30,000,000 and the ICS can be free. It is strictly a date. Too early if comes up against their Cup date in August too close to their other date. Dump Edmonton have it the week after Iowa and bring in ARCA with it and run twin 400's. One on Saturday for ARCA and one on Sunday, ICS. Run twin 100 IPS races each day. Total cost $2,000,000

[geek49203]

(snip)

Somewhere in high school, did you learn that an object cannot be in two places at the same time? And that two objects cannot occupy the same spot at the same time?

Well, by my calculations, I see a 20-race schedule, so several venues just won't fit.

Many of those venuesare in temperate places (ie, Canada, Indiana, Iowa, etc) and therefore are pretty much required to run in June, July and August. In 2009, Labor Day is the first weekend in September, and the MotoGP will get a second weekend, and the Chicagoland race will get the third weekend. That means that any races outside of June-July-August must be in March, April or late September. Quite frankly, I don't see Toronto or Iowa wanting to run in late September, and more directly, I don't see Chicagoland wanting to run its contractual year-end date in late September or early October. I don't see the IRL wanting to end its year in Oz, or California either.

So, we have have 13 weekends in the summer months, minus two dates for Indy events (Brickyard, F1). Of those 11 dates, 2 are taken by "sponsors races" (Nashville, Mid-Ohio), leaving 9. Those 9 dates cannot fit Milwaukee, Iowa, Cleveland, 'Glen, Kentucky, the 4 Canadian venues, both California venues, MIS, Elkhart Lake, etc etc.

So, if you've got a better schedule, I'm all ears. Get out a calendar of '09, and start thinking about each of those venues, and each of those dates, and put your ideas to paper.

Here's my tentative schedule:

March 22 Miami-Homestead
March 29 St. Petersburg

April 5 Surfers Paradise
April 12 Motegi
April 19 Long Beach
April 26 Kansas

May Indy

June 7 Milwaukee
June 14 Texas
June 21 NONE (Indy F1)
June 28 Richmond

July 5 Toronto or Watkins Glen
July 12 Nashville
July 19 Mid-Ohio
July 26 NONE (Indy B’yard)

Aug 2 Odd Man contest
Aug 9 Odd Man contest
Aug 16 Odd Man contest
Aug 23 Infineon
Aug 30 Odd Man contest

Sept 6 Detroit
Sept 13 NONE (Indy MotoGP)
Sept 20 Chicagoland

[!!WALDO!!]

Somewhere in high school, did you learn that an object cannot be in two places at the same time? And that two objects cannot occupy the same spot at the same time?

Well, by my calculations, I see a 20-race schedule, so several venues just won't fit.

Many of those venuesare in temperate places (ie, Canada, Indiana, Iowa, etc) and therefore are pretty much required to run in June, July and August. In 2009, Labor Day is the first weekend in September, and the MotoGP will get a second weekend, and the Chicagoland race will get the third weekend. That means that any races outside of June-July-August must be in March, April or late September. Quite frankly, I don't see Toronto or Iowa wanting to run in late September, and more directly, I don't see Chicagoland wanting to run its contractual year-end date in late September or early October. I don't see the IRL wanting to end its year in Oz, or California either.

So, we have have 13 weekends in the summer months, minus two dates for Indy events (Brickyard, F1). Of those 11 dates, 2 are taken by "sponsors races" (Nashville, Mid-Ohio), leaving 9. Those 9 dates cannot fit Milwaukee, Iowa, Cleveland, 'Glen, Kentucky, the 4 Canadian venues, both California venues, MIS, Elkhart Lake, etc etc.

So, if you've got a better schedule, I'm all ears. Get out a calendar of '09, and start thinking about each of those venues, and each of those dates, and put your ideas to paper.

Here's my tentative schedule:


Feb. First Weekend---Surfers
Feb Last Weekend---Brazil

March 16---Mexico

March 30 Miami-Homestead

April 5 St. Petersburg
April 12 Motegi
April 19 Long Beach
April 26 Kansas

May Indy

June 7 Milwaukee
June 14 Texas
June 21 Watkins Glen
June 28 Richmond

July 5 Iowa
July 12 Michigan
July 19 Mid-Ohio
July 26 NONE (Indy B’yard)

Aug 2 Mid-Ohio
Aug 9 Kentucky
Aug 16 Edmonton
Aug 23 Infineon
Aug 30 Nashville

Sept 6 Detroit
Sept 13 Chicagoland


Remember the season must end prior to the Chase, on ABC and Pro Football season gets to the second week. That is the CONTRACT the IRL signed in 2005. You can dream all you want but it ends on the 13th!!

[!!WALDO!!]

What the article tells us (or at least those of us who can read):

-the race was losing money since 2005.
-the race didn't have a big time sponsor after Molson left.

You said this:

They would have no trouble regaining a big time primary sponsor.

My point was if it was so easy where are the sponsors in 2007?




What anyone with half a brain and a knowledge of the history of the event can tell you:

-When the Molson Indy hosted a unified CART series (and for many years after the split) no one was complaining about losing money and the crowds were much bigger.
-Tickets have basically been given away the past couple of years because CC's product has been unwatchable and because the split has taken its toll.

So the show made money. Many shows made money and they do not now.
Did you know that the Indy Cars went to Mosport and St Jovite in 1967 and 1968 and left because even with paying only a small purse the shows lost money. You would say, no names but Bobby Unser, Dan Gurney and Mario won all the races. No crowds!!


You can complain that I'm "spinning it back to TG" till you're blue in the face, but my bottom line is: a) if what Tony's been spouting about CART being the goal is true and comes to pass, the Toronto race would easily find a title sponsor and would return to what it was during the CART days and b) anyone that believes Tony has any intention of trying to grow the sport beyond the current IRL should email me because I can sell them the Brooklyn Bridge at a very reasonable price.

So it is TG fault that Toronto race can't easily find a title sponsor. No it is a lack of interest in a money losing event. Once shows go red the money dries up. Kevin and Gerry are now the promoters push them, not Tony George.

[Marbles]

And I believe Toronto will be back for a number of reasons.

-It's one of the largest markets in all of North America.
-Year in and out it provides one of the more exceptional races of the year. Guaranteed passing and incidents on the Lakeshore despite the Formula (or lack there of) of the day!
-It is very well attended. Despite recent years and the freebies that were issued (there's always been tons of comps anyways) it's attendance may have suffered but it certainly didn't tank.
-Johnstone has accepted this years circumstances with such grace that I'm almost certain he may know more than we do.
-Toronto likes it. Open wheel likes. Drivers like it... etc.
-I believe, in my gut, that TG wants this event!

P.S. It's refreshing to see sports scribes like Perkins cover the motor sports beat and share with us his expertise at times other than those that involve fatalities. It truly is...

[geek49203]

Here's my tentative schedule:
Remember the season must end prior to the Chase, on ABC and Pro Football season gets to the second week. That is the CONTRACT the IRL signed in 2005. You can dream all you want but it ends on the 13th!!

We do agree that the post-Chicagoland races must be moved to spring. I expect Indy to move the MotoGP race to the third weekend of Sept, which would be better for all involved, so yeah, the season ends on the 13th.

I always figure that a race date cannot be easily moved to another date. To do so requires a damned good reason -- witness what happened when NASCAR dumped Darlington in favor of California. So, I kept as many traditional race dates as possible.

You forgot about the "probable" F1 race returning to Indy, which is a date that normally went to Iowa and Cleveland, assigned by you to the Glen.

Do Brazil and Mexico make sense in terms of the sponsors in the series? AS you might recall, that was the great question when CART went to Oz, and it took a bit of marketing genius (the pics of koala bears in the cars) to turn that around. Personally, I don't see it being worth the expense since neither is an established event (in the same way as Surfer's).

I'm sure that the travel concerns would be the first thing that the teams notice about your schedule. You have the teams traveling to Surfers, then to Brazil, then to Mexico, with trips back to Indy between each. Then you've got them going to Japan followed by Long Beach. I clumped Long Beach, Oz and Japan on consecutive weekends to lessen travel costs.

You've only got one Canadian race -- Edmonton -- in the least accessible spot travel-wise. I mean, have you tried to book a flight to that place? Is this more valuable than Vancouver, Toronto, etc?

You've got Mid-Ohio on July 19 and Aug 2.

You gave the July 4 holiday spot to Iowa, when the IRL has tried to build the Glen into a 4th of July party there. What is your reasoning?

I thought that Nashville and Mid-Ohio were not movable, given the wishes of their sponsors. Hence, MIS lost out to Mid-Ohio and the Brickyard for July dates. Do you believe that TG can talk those venues, notably Nashville, into a radically different spot?

Do you think the sponsorship money is there for 23 races?

Do you think that Indy wants 6 races before the 500? They would definitely compete some "soft" NASCAR races (California?!?!) and build momentum for the 500.

[the bro]

Certainly the Toronto race is not the same as it was 13 years ago, attendance wise. IMO I think most of the tracks have had the same problem, hence the reuinification. I think that the decline in interest in Toronto, has more to do with the sorry state of AOWR, in the last several years. Saying that it doesn't deserve to be on the calender due to a lack of fan interest, well where does that leave the rest of the tracks? You might as well cancel them all. IMO.

[!!WALDO!!]

To do so requires a damned good reason -- witness what happened when NASCAR dumped Darlington in favor of California. So, I kept as many traditional race dates as possible.

Name one race that ran from 1950 until 2003 on the same date? That was Darlington, there is very little tradition, only in your mind.


You've only got one Canadian race -- Edmonton -- in the least accessible spot travel-wise. I mean, have you tried to book a flight to that place? Is this more valuable than Vancouver, Toronto, etc?

Oil Country #1 and the ICS is committed to going there in 2008. Why not 2009?


You've got Mid-Ohio on July 19 and Aug 2.

How about this:
Feb. First Weekend---Surfers
Feb Last Weekend---Brazil

March 16---Mexico

March 30 Miami-Homestead

April 5 St. Petersburg
April 12 Motegi
April 19 Long Beach
April 26 Kansas

May Indy

June 7 Milwaukee
June 14 Texas
June 21 Watkins Glen
June 28 Richmond

July 5 Iowa
July 12 Michigan
July 19 Nashville
July 26 NONE (Indy B’yard)

Aug 2 Mid-Ohio
Aug 9 Kentucky
Aug 16 Edmonton
Aug 23 Infineon
Aug 30 PIR (Under the lights)

Sept 6 Detroit
Sept 13 Chicagoland



You gave the July 4 holiday spot to Iowa, when the IRL has tried to build the Glen into a 4th of July party there. What is your reasoning?

July 4th is a lousy racing weekend.


Do you think the sponsorship money is there for 23 races?

Yes


Do you think that Indy wants 6 races before the 500? They would definitely compete some "soft" NASCAR races California?!?!) and build momentum for the 500.

Is a race in Brazil competition for California?

[geek49203]

This track (Michigan) makes $30,000,000 and the ICS can be free. It is strictly a date. Too early if comes up against their Cup date in August too close to their other date. Dump Edmonton have it the week after Iowa and bring in ARCA with it and run twin 400's. One on Saturday for ARCA and one on Sunday, ICS. Run twin 100 IPS races each day. Total cost $2,000,000

The former CART people hate it. It's yet another race in a saturated market (I know, cuts both ways), only 90 minutes from Penske's party (the main reason it's not gonna be on the schedule).

Brian Barnhart nix'd the Twin 200 idea, which was part of the frustration for MIS staff. I asked around the IRL pits during the rain delay, and I was told by one of the Big 3 owners that Barnhart made a mistake (in not so polite language). Then again, after last year's Big One accident, where that owner lost 2 cars, I'm pretty sure they were all glad there wasn't a second race.

ARCA has a habit of drawing more fans than the IRL race (and the CART race before it).

Forget about help from MIS to promote this race -- they've got 300,000 NASCAR tickets to sell in a very soft economy. MIS had 32 straight sellouts for NASCAR, but have had spare seats for their last 4, even after removing 5000 seats last season.

MIS, sadly, is dead for the time being.

[DBell]

I saw a quote from the Gold Coast people after they signed the new contract that said the race wasn't moving from October. So Aus. in Feb. doesn't seem likely.

[geek49203]

How about this:
Feb. First Weekend---Surfers
Feb Last Weekend---Brazil

March 16---Mexico

March 30 Miami-Homestead

April 5 St. Petersburg
April 12 Motegi
April 19 Long Beach
April 26 Kansas

May Indy

June 7 Milwaukee
June 14 Texas
June 21 Watkins Glen
June 28 Richmond

July 5 Iowa
July 12 Michigan
July 19 Nashville
July 26 NONE (Indy B’yard)

Aug 2 Mid-Ohio
Aug 9 Kentucky
Aug 16 Edmonton
Aug 23 Infineon
Aug 30 PIR (Under the lights)

Sept 6 Detroit
Sept 13 Chicagoland

You're still putting in a date on the assumed F1 race. There are more signals that F1 will return to Indy than there are signals that they won't. I have no clue why Indy wants Bernie to come back, given all of the crap that he dishes out....

PIR? Where did THAT come from? What is your justification?

No Toronto or Cleveland?



Is a race in Brazil competition for California?

On TV, yes. California is one of the worst NASCAR races of the year. The attendance and TV ratings are lousy.

[geek49203]

I saw a quote from the Gold Coast people after they signed the new contract that said the race wasn't moving from October. So Aus. in Feb. doesn't seem likely.

So we're back to the same old problem we've always had with Oz? I mean, the sponsors have to be coaxed to see the value of running there, the trip is expensive, and now, the whole deal is either not a part of the points race, or part of the following year's points???

And, there is little momentum on the IRL front at that point, the Chicago race having anointed the champion about a month earlier. The TV schedule is full -- football games and the NASCAR Chase, just to name two in October.

If February they'd compete against... hockey?

[DBell]

I'm not convinced about the ending the season in the first week September is a great plan. I know the competition is tough in the fall, but going half a year between seasons isn't much of an alternative. That's a long time to be out of the public eye every year.

[BenRoethig]

Certainly the Toronto race is not the same as it was 13 years ago, attendance wise. IMO I think most of the tracks have had the same problem, hence the reuinification. I think that the decline in interest in Toronto, has more to do with the sorry state of AOWR, in the last several years. Saying that it doesn't deserve to be on the calender due to a lack of fan interest, well where does that leave the rest of the tracks? You might as well cancel them all. IMO.

I say put everything back to basically the way it was in the 90s, keep all the races no matter how much of a hit TG's wallet takes (he owes us anyway) and go from there. If the fans return to their seats, we're back and business. If not we've burned too many bridges and the demise is inevitable. Either way I'd rather go out guns blazing than continue the slow death spiral.

[nanders]

I'm not convinced about the ending the season in the first week September is a great plan. I know the competition is tough in the fall, but going half a year between seasons isn't much of an alternative. That's a long time to be out of the public eye every year.

Tony George basically agreed with you on Wind Tunnel a few weeks ago.

[!!WALDO!!]

You're still putting in a date on the assumed F1 race. There are more signals that F1 will return to Indy than there are signals that they won't. I have no clue why Indy wants Bernie to come back, given all of the crap that he dishes out....

I am assuming that if it happens it happens in September on the 20th and the bikes go to October.


PIR? Where did THAT come from? What is your justification?

Grand-Am has been running there on that weekend, under the lights.


No Toronto or Cleveland?

Cleveland and Mid Ohio cannot existed on a schedule that end in early September. Toronto is a money loser thus it is gone.





On TV, yes. California is one of the worst NASCAR races of the year. The attendance and TV ratings are lousy.

If Brazil, the race could run live at 12:00 Eastern so it would not conflict with a race starting at 3:45 Eastern.

[!!WALDO!!]

I saw a quote from the Gold Coast people after they signed the new contract that said the race wasn't moving from October. So Aus. in Feb. doesn't seem likely.

This TV contract runs until through 2009, CONTRACT TERMS requires the SEASON TO END THE SECOND WEEK OF SEPTEMBER.

So your point is? My point is a contract worth a reported $38,000,000 carries more weight than the "wishes" of a few.

[!!WALDO!!]

The former CART people hate it. It's yet another race in a saturated market (I know, cuts both ways), only 90 minutes from Penske's party (the main reason it's not gonna be on the schedule).

From 1988 through when ever was Detroit and Michigan.


Brian Barnhart nix'd the Twin 200 idea, which was part of the frustration for MIS staff. I asked around the IRL pits during the rain delay, and I was told by one of the Big 3 owners that Barnhart made a mistake (in not so polite language). Then again, after last year's Big One accident, where that owner lost 2 cars, I'm pretty sure they were all glad there wasn't a second race.

Not talking about that, just twin 400 milers. One ICS and One ARCA


ARCA has a habit of drawing more fans than the IRL race (and the CART race before it).

Saw ARCA there and the show made money, IROC would draw a crowd as big as the next day Marlboro 500.


Forget about help from MIS to promote this race -- they've got 300,000 NASCAR tickets to sell in a very soft economy. MIS had 32 straight sellouts for NASCAR, but have had spare seats for their last 4, even after removing 5000 seats last season.

Yes but they still got $32,000,000 coming in. Nobody is going to be selling candy on the corner soon for MIS.


MIS, sadly, is dead for the time being.

According to them it is a "date" and I fixed it for them. Gave them a chance to market the August date by adding a race in July.

[DBell]

This TV contract runs until through 2009, CONTRACT TERMS requires the SEASON TO END THE SECOND WEEK OF SEPTEMBER.

So your point is? My point is a contract worth a reported $38,000,000 carries more weight than the "wishes" of a few.


My point is simply what I stated. The Surfers people stated that the race wouldn't move from October. And in your theorectical schedule, a Febuary Surfers race seems unlikely. I never said anything about what the TV contract allows or how they plan to fit this into the schedule.

[!!WALDO!!]

My point is simply what I stated. The Surfers people stated that the race wouldn't move from October. And in your theorectical schedule, a Febuary Surfers race seems unlikely. I never said anything about what the TV contract allows or how they plan to fit this into the schedule.


Was Surfer's ever run in March or April? It can't be moved to July or August thus not a point race. Ever think that is what they are talking about? For those that do not understand that is Winter there. October is Spring, Feburary is Summer, April is Fall.

Again I have been blasted, but if you are going to have a race when is it the safest from harsh weather, Spring, Summer, Fall, Winter?

[DBell]

What? I blasted you because I don't think a Febuary race in Surfers is likely? Whatever Waldo. It seems your getting a little paranoid and picking fights with whoever doesn't agree with something you say.

[garyshell]

What? I blasted you because I don't think a Febuary race in Surfers is likely? Whatever Waldo. It seems your getting a little paranoid and picking fights with whoever doesn't agree with something you say.


Detecting a pattern are we? The ignore button comes in pretty handy. To bad it would ignore replies to him. DBell, don't bother beating your head on this brick wall. It knows everything, just ask it.

Gary

[BenRoethig]

Was Surfer's ever run in March or April? It can't be moved to July or August thus not a point race. Ever think that is what they are talking about? For those that do not understand that is Winter there. October is Spring, Feburary is Summer, April is Fall.

Again I have been blasted, but if you are going to have a race when is it the safest from harsh weather, Spring, Summer, Fall, Winter?

I'm not sure of the exact date, but but surfers did used to be one of the first races of the year.

[BobGarage]

i find it hard to belive that the TV Contract stipulates when the season should end. I have read through the contract announcements at indycar.com and nowhere in the press release or the teleconference transcript does it say anything about the TV Contract stipulating a September end date for the season. I'm happy to be proved wrong though, so !!waldo!! please can you provide some links to where it has been said anywhere that this is the case???

Tony George has repeatedly said that the IRL has a contract with Chicagoland for the track to host the season finale, he has not once said that this is due to the TV contract! If that is the case it will be fairly easy to re-neogtiate for next year so that the season won't end in Chicago in September.

As for surfers in October (Spring). I don't see why a race in spring is so bad? Every European series starts their season in spring. It has never caused any of them any major problems. A1GP ends its season in the UK in Spring. It too has never had any problems with that. So why would a s Spring race at Surfers, that has been in that date for number of years now, be so much of a problem???

[Lousada]

Personally I think ending the season in September is a great idea. This way you do not compete with NASCAR and football. There is only so much a person can follow at the same time. However, I do think they should start sooner than the end of March.
If I was the king I'd try to start the season right before the Daytona 500 and in the US. This first race should be a huge party to set off your season, stealing as much of the pre-Daytona hype as possible. Than in February when NASCAR reaches it's maximum, a lot of casual fans prefer NASCAR over Indycar. So than you do the foreign races like Surfers, Motegi, Mexico, Turks and Caicos ( :dork: ). When everything settles down you come back with your own pre-Indy hype, followed by Indy hype. Than after that you have the road to the championship to build interest.
The big problem with autoracing seasons is that it's hard to keep following all year. The beginning and the end are always better watched. Therefore it's more effective to market the first and the last part of the season as they naturally create curiousity. With Indy 500 right in the middle, you prevent the series getting in a dull. Running jan/feb-sept also creates an advantage internationally as no series runs this format --> all the news for yourself.
Okay this turned out to be quite a long ramble which has nothing to do with Toronto :o But I haven't typed all this just to delete it so I post it anyway :o :o



As for surfers in October (Spring). I don't see why a race in spring is so bad? Every European series starts their season in spring. It has never caused any of them any major problems. A1GP ends its season in the UK in Spring. It too has never had any problems with that. So why would a s Spring race at Surfers, that has been in that date for number of years now, be so much of a problem???

I think it's not a good idea to end your season on a foreign race, at least not a race in another timezone. Regarding Surfer's, I guess they'll review the date after 2010: if F1 does not renew Melbourne they'll move Surfer's back to 'our' spring.

[bblocker68]

If I could re-arrange the schedule, I'd try to have IndyCar on whenever F1 was not on, which is usually every other week. That way, open wheel racing fans would have a race to watch on every weekend during the season.

Man, I can't believe F1 starts this weekend! We'll get to see that and the Sebring 12 on SpeedTV here in the states for some non-stop racing!!

[BobGarage]

I think it's not a good idea to end your season on a foreign race, at least not a race in another timezone.

i would agree, and I would end the season with a 500 mile race two weeks after surfers. Preferably at fontana, but if not maybe vegas.

[nanders]

If I could re-arrange the schedule, I'd try to have IndyCar on whenever F1 was not on, which is usually every other week. That way, open wheel racing fans would have a race to watch on every weekend during the season.

There where a few season in the "hay day" when they did nearly alternate weekends.


Man, I can't believe F1 starts this weekend! We'll get to see that and the Sebring 12 on SpeedTV here in the states for some non-stop racing!!

I didn't realize you were that big of a fiend :)

[nigelred5]

Dang skippy!! Real racing starts thursday!

[!!WALDO!!]

I'm not sure of the exact date, but but surfers did used to be one of the first races of the year.


Yes it was. If this box would get so squirrely when I come here I could tell you. Almost keystrokes.

It appear from 1991 through 1997.

[weeflyonthewall]

However, it doesn't take a genius to figure out that the IRL and the ardent Tony apologists are going to latch onto stuff like this and cling to it for all it is worth as they cancel all of the old CC races and continue to patronize such cosmopolitan population centres like Iowa and Kentucky.

Someone recently said unification is not the magic bullet. Ignoring the significance of CART's/CCWS legacy events like Toronto and Cleveland will just perpetuate the downturn.

[DBell]

Tony George basically agreed with you on Wind Tunnel a few weeks ago.

Damn, I'm thinking like TG now? I need a stiiff drink or two! :D

[!!WALDO!!]

significance of CART's/CCWS legacy events like Toronto and Cleveland will just perpetuate the downturn.

Gerry Forsythe and Kevin Kalkhoven are the promoters of Toronto. Why are they not clammering for the race?

Lanigan is the Cleveland promoter, he got rid of Houston, why isn't he clammering for the race?

You want to toss this at the IRL when three principles are with the former CCWS and have their lips zipped.

I would take it up with them as they want the ball to be dropped, deflated and thrown away.