McLaren Pit garage [Archive] - Motorsport Forums

Osella

9th March 2008, 13:57

So, not at the end of the pitlane after all then...

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/65575

It is believed that the practical issue of where to place McLaren's large motorhome in paddocks was one of the reasons for keeping the team away from the bottom end of the pitlane.

So what about at the newer tracks where there is more paddock space then huh...?
I can't believe Bernie and those McLaren whingers have managed to pull this off.

I propose we all club together and donate five pounds a month, or whatever you can spare, to the "Scuderia Toro Rosso Megabus" campaign. All we have to do is put together enough money to fund a new motorhome for them and they can be between Ferrari and BMW!!. :dozey:

How unbelievably sad it is that the size of a cheating team's motorhome can actually prevent them from receiving their due and agreed punishment.

This, frankly, stinks.

Can we get a petition together to make the entire team work in fat suits, thereby limiting their work space to that of the end garages? Or blindfold them perhaps? Or both... :hmph:

ioan

9th March 2008, 14:06

F1 stinks on the McLaren side!
Bernie is not giving up on protecting Lewy's chances!

As soon as Bernie will be gone F1 might become fair until that it will be one persons Monopoly game. He's the one who protected McLaren and their drivers from being given what they deserved, exclusion or 2 seasons!

Anyway, who cares as long as Ferrari walk all over them? :D :)

wedge

9th March 2008, 14:59

Hardly surprising considering Ron and Bernie's chums wouldn't want to be seen with the likes of Super Aguri

DonJippo

9th March 2008, 15:48

So what, if I may ask?

Tazio

9th March 2008, 15:54

Re hashed making it's rounds again!! OLD NEWS
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Bernie moves McLaren up to Pit 5 - 13th Feb 08, 22:07

--------------------------------------------------------------------------

I'm not making a big deal out of this, but I had assumed that being relegated to last place in the WCC
meant having to deal with "ALL" the consequences!

http://www.feedmef1.com/html/modules...cle&sid= 9332

However, despite having all its points taken away last season amid the espionage scandal,
it seems that McLaren will call the fifth garages home in 2008.

The Finnish daily newspaper Turun Sanomat reports that Bernie Ecclestone has ordered the re-shuffle
so that one of F1's 'Big Two' teams can still have access to first class circuit facilities this year.

It is reported that Ecclestone, F1's chief executive,
actually wanted Mercedes-powered McLaren to have the third pit area,
but Renault - officially third in the championship last year - objected.

At most F1 circuits, the first three pit garages are wider and include better amenities for its personnel and guests.

At least Renault held their ground! and said "**** ***"!!!

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

ioan

9th March 2008, 17:31

So what, if I may ask?

Rules are broken, again, to favor the McC&L! Indeed, so what?!

ioan

9th March 2008, 17:32

mstillhere

9th March 2008, 17:34

So, not at the end of the pitlane after all then...

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/65575

So what about at the newer tracks where there is more paddock space then huh...?
I can't believe Bernie and those McLaren whingers have managed to pull this off.

I propose we all club together and donate five pounds a month, or whatever you can spare, to the "Scuderia Toro Rosso Megabus" campaign. All we have to do is put together enough money to fund a new motorhome for them and they can be between Ferrari and BMW!!. :dozey:

How unbelievably sad it is that the size of a cheating team's motorhome can actually prevent them from receiving their due and agreed punishment.

This, frankly, stinks.

Can we get a petition together to make the entire team work in fat suits, thereby limiting their work space to that of the end garages? Or blindfold them perhaps? Or both... :hmph:

Actually RD wanted the 3rd spot. BUT Renault, the owner of that spot said no. The moral is: when you are a small team, do as you are told, otherwise you'll suffer the consequences (Don Corleone)

mstillhere

9th March 2008, 17:35

So what, if I may ask?

I like this guy. He would make murder legal, if it could help McLaren

ioan

9th March 2008, 17:38

Actually RD wanted the 3rd spot. BUT Renault, the owner of that spot said no. The moral is: when you are a small team, do as you are told, otherwise you'll suffer the consequences (Don Corleone)

I still don't understand why the likes of Williams, RedBull and Toyota agreed to this sh!t.

jens

9th March 2008, 18:28

I still don't understand why the likes of Williams, RedBull and Toyota agreed to this sh!t.

Haven't Toyota and Honda got large motorhomes too? Maybe they should demand a garage next to Ferrari's. :p :

Maybe that's the reason, why for example Toyota hasn't been successful in F1. They came to F1, got the last garage and since then have never had enough room to operate as they'd like. :crazy: :arrows:

Tazio

9th March 2008, 18:50

Haven't Toyota and Honda got large motorhomes too? Maybe they should demand a garage next to Ferrari's. :p :

Maybe that's the reason, why for example Toyota hasn't been successful in F1. They came to F1, got the last garage and since then have never had enough room to operate as they'd like. :crazy: :arrows: :) You know what Jens? That's funny![ :D

ArrowsFA1

9th March 2008, 19:44

Re hashed making it's rounds again!! OLD NEWS
Old new, schmold news. It's another opportunity to bash McLaren :s mash:

SGWilko

9th March 2008, 20:37

Old new, schmold news. It's another opportunity to bash McLaren :s mash:

I'm still :rotflmao: at the composer of the 'make murder legal for McLaren' post.

DonJippo

9th March 2008, 21:00

I like this guy. He would make murder legal, if it could help McLaren

Don't understand what you mean by your comment but could you or anyone else explain what difference it makes where you are located on the pitlane like I was asking in my post?

I know it's in the rules so no point repeating that but is there any other reason any benefits to get to the beginning of the pitlane?

Tazio

9th March 2008, 21:58

Like I stated in the thread that I happened to introduce this subject(see "Bernies Big Mouth")
I have very little doubt that pit position 5 was aquired for a cash retainer.
The article then feb/13/08 as now, makes it sound like Bernie ordered it.
If it was aquired from the team that officially would have been designated to it for other$$$ considerations,
it is a non-issue! Thank God we have a race in less than seven days,
because starting the whining all over again is almost enough to get me to fly the
bloody Union Jack (and white up :D )

Big Ben

9th March 2008, 22:01

super duper news and great thread... always the same people using every opportunity to embarrass themselves...

mstillhere

9th March 2008, 22:21

Don't understand what you mean by your comment but could you or anyone else explain what difference it makes where you are located on the pitlane like I was asking in my post?

I know it's in the rules so no point repeating that but is there any other reason any benefits to get to the beginning of the pitlane?

My understanding is, the closer you are to the exit, the better. If there was no difference or if there was an advantage in being in the last garage, McLaren would have stayed there.

mstillhere

9th March 2008, 22:26

I still don't understand why the likes of Williams, RedBull and Toyota agreed to this sh!t.

You know? it blows my mind. The only thing I can think of is money. And still.... I am sure that there is a reason ( I am sure a real good reason) why these teams agreed to this change. Now, what it is, escapes my understanding.

wmcot

9th March 2008, 22:37

So what, if I may ask?

I believe it's called rules!

ioan

9th March 2008, 23:27

Don't understand what you mean by your comment but could you or anyone else explain what difference it makes where you are located on the pitlane like I was asking in my post?

I know it's in the rules so no point repeating that but is there any other reason any benefits to get to the beginning of the pitlane?

Some say that some pit boxes are larger! Is that enough of a hint for ya?

ioan

9th March 2008, 23:33

super duper news and great thread... always the same people using every opportunity to embarrass themselves...

Got something other to do than attacking fellow forum members whom are discussing about F1?
No?! What a surprise! :rolleyes:

woody2goody

10th March 2008, 00:38

McLaren were officially last in the championship, so why don't the FIA MAKE THEM go to the end of the pitlane regardless of the size of their motorhome. If they don't like the space issues then they should just make another motorhome whatever they call it.

It's not their fault they got DQ'd from the '07 championship, but they must accept their punishment.

DonJippo

10th March 2008, 01:35

My understanding is, the closer you are to the exit, the better. If there was no difference or if there was an advantage in being in the last garage, McLaren would have stayed there.

As I understand this, being last on the pitlane means you have shortest distance back to the track so I take it so that McLaren should have stayed there based on what you say. Depending of course when you say exit you mean exit from pitlane to the track and not vice versa.

I believe it's called rules!

Yes seen it already in other post saying it's in the rules but could you or someone else tell me where in the rules it says reigning manufacturer champion gets the first place on the pitlane and last one will be at the end of the pitlane?

Some say that some pit boxes are larger! Is that enough of a hint for ya?

So size does matter? Do bigger pit boxes give competitive advantage against rival teams? Can you give me more in depth explanation rather than just giving a hint?

markabilly

10th March 2008, 03:54

As I understand this, being last on the pitlane means you have shortest distance back to the track so I take it so that McLaren should have stayed there based on what you say. Depending of course when you say exit you mean exit from pitlane to the track and not vice versa.

Yes seen it already in other post saying it's in the rules but could you or someone else tell me where in the rules it says reigning manufacturer champion gets the first place on the pitlane and last one will be at the end of the pitlane?

So size does matter? Do bigger pit boxes give competitive advantage against rival teams? Can you give me more in depth explanation rather than just giving a hint?

Bernie rules...must be because of something in it for bernie. Of course if a team dont like it they can appeal to the FIA for another one of their thourgh intense and exacting investigation and rule cladification, issued in the name of fairness and what is good for revenue...err i maen benie...err I mean sport

As to whether size matters, apparently bernie's wifey thinks not, as long as they got $$$$$$$$, who cares about an inch or two....hardly noticeable

Aint true luv grand

:love:

( or so rumor has it, as I certainly got no way to test out that theory on small size)

Hawkmoon

10th March 2008, 06:30

Old new, schmold news. It's another opportunity to bash McLaren :s mash:

Why shouldn't McLaren occupy the spot they deserve? Their motorhome, excuse me - Communications Centre, is too big? Leave it at home or get a smaller one! McLaren should be down there talking to the guys from Super Aguri and Force India.

It's a matter of principal (or is it principle? It's principle, isn't it?). The MP4-23s carry numbers 22 and 23. Their parking spaces should reflect that.

pino

10th March 2008, 06:56

super duper news and great thread... always the same people using every opportunity to embarrass themselves...

Please do me a favor, when/if you don't have anything constructive to post...don't post at all. Thank You !

janneppi

10th March 2008, 07:25

ioan

10th March 2008, 07:42

So size does matter? Do bigger pit boxes give competitive advantage against rival teams? Can you give me more in depth explanation rather than just giving a hint?

Ofcourse size matters. Why do you think that people buy bigger houses, bigger cars etc???

As for the pit boxes, I do strongly believe that having 10-15% (and this is just a rough guestimate) less space at disposal for your race team in the garages might hinder you quite a bit when you're a team the size of McL&C.

As pointed out by janneppi the first and last places on the pitlane give a bit of advantage in terms of pitstop duration. This is why I first thought that McL&C will be happy with that, but apparently there are better gains in other areas, like more space for the engineer team and also for the huge motorhome and hospitality area where they can receive their rich sponsors and sponsor wannabes. Not to mention the image advantage, as the don't have to be SAF1's and FI's neighbors!

All in all there is performance and finances related advantage in having a bigger pitbox that isn't at very the end of the pit lane where Super Aguri are stranded.

ioan

10th March 2008, 07:44

BTW, are there rules that govern the amount of stuff you can bring to the paddocs and do the teams have to approve their "motor homes".

Only the number of cars, tires to be used during the race are limited.
Judging by the diversity of motor homes they don't seem to have to get those approved.

janneppi

10th March 2008, 08:01

ioan

10th March 2008, 08:13

Well, one could also ask would you really trust McLaren in their own dark corner, who knows what sinister plans they could conjure up far away from their main rivals. Better to have your enemies as close as you can. :p :

You see that was McL&C's problem, the dark corner where the potential sponsors wouldn't ever get and the sponsors they have now would have been embarrassed to go there too! :p :

Bernie made a bizarre move however, from a marketing POV. With McL&C at the low end of the pit lane he would have got full coverage of the pit lane for once. Mercedes must have payed a royal sum to offset that advantage!

seppefan

10th March 2008, 08:51

You know? it blows my mind. The only thing I can think of is money. And still.... I am sure that there is a reason ( I am sure a real good reason) why these teams agreed to this change. Now, what it is, escapes my understanding.

I am not so sure on the money answer. Toyota NEED to win a race and can afford to say no to the cash. As can Red Bull. Williams I would agree with you. I think there is another reason and we should find out what it is.

janneppi

10th March 2008, 09:03

Teams who are fourth, fifth place have very little to loose by allowing McLaren to move, sure, they could have told Dennis to go **** off just for the sake of it, but why get on the wrong side off Bernie and Dennis in a relatively small issue to them.

SGWilko

10th March 2008, 10:12

My understanding is, the closer you are to the exit, the better.

Indeed, Bernie purchased a Black Hole back in '98, so now, the first five pit garages take advantage of this black hole, and they have less distance to travel than the others, and hence a pit stop for them is much quicker. ;)

It does not matter where you stop in the pit lane, you've still got to travel the same flippin' distance.........

ioan

10th March 2008, 10:34

SGWilko

10th March 2008, 10:40

Because there should be no exceptions to the rules???

Wash your mouth out with soap young man, this is F1, where rules mean.....

....diddly squat. Sadly.

ioan

10th March 2008, 10:44

Wash your mouth out with soap young man, this is F1, where rules mean.....

....diddly squat. Sadly.

Young man?!

Back to topic.
The more rules they brake like this will lead to less rules being followed in the future.

Anyway F1 is becoming a game (as per E. Irvine), Bernie's Monopoly game.
I have a feeling that this season I'll follow even less races than last season, and man I didn't miss one race between 93 and 2004.

DonJippo

10th March 2008, 10:44

Because there should be no exceptions to the rules???

Wash your mouth out with soap young man, this is F1, where rules mean.....

....diddly squat. Sadly.

What is the rule you are referring to? Can you or someone else tell in which document it can be found?

janneppi

10th March 2008, 10:45

Because there should be no exceptions to the rules???

That's how i would see it, but I'm not the head of BMW F1 . I was answering seppefans post of why they would agree on it.

Hawkmoon

10th March 2008, 12:09

What is the rule you are referring to? Can you or someone else tell in which document it can be found?

They don't get pit garages by drawing straws so there is a rule or regulation or procedure or something that asigns the order of the team's garages by championship position. This has been set aside because McLaren are so far up their own backsides that they have a huge bloody "Communications Centre" that won't fit at the bottom end of the pit lane at some GPs.

Many suspect that this is merely an excuse for something that Bernie has cooked up.

There is an advantage, perhaps only a perceived one, to having certain pit garages. Which garage the current champions get changes from GP to GP. Usually it's the first garage as they enter the pits but I'm pretty sure it's the last garage at some races as well (Monaco springs to mind).

McLaren being put in 5th, half way, is no coincidence. It puts them right in the middle so that they get no, perhaps perceived, advantage or disadvantage.

Tazio

10th March 2008, 12:25

They don't get pit garages by drawing straws so there is a rule or regulation or procedure or something that asigns the order of the team's garages by championship position. This has been set aside because McLaren are so far up their own backsides that they have a huge bloody "Communications Centre" that won't fit at the bottom end of the pit lane at some GPs.

Many suspect that this is merely an excuse for something that Bernie has cooked up.

There is an advantage, perhaps only a perceived one, to having certain pit garages. Which garage the current champions get changes from GP to GP. Usually it's the first garage as they enter the pits but I'm pretty sure it's the last garage at some races as well (Monaco springs to mind).

McLaren being put in 5th, half way, is no coincidence. It puts them right in the middle so that they get no, perhaps perceived, advantage or disadvantage.That’s a good point. In certain rare circumstances the last pit box could be a huge advantage.
For example Ferrari is leading McLaren, but the cars are running nose to tail. They pit on the same lap.
The team in the last box fills .2 seconds less fuel by timing Ferrari's refueling time and executes a pass in the pits.
Granted with a fractional disadvantage in the following stint.
But in certain situations that might benefit them immensely!

SGWilko

10th March 2008, 12:31

That’s a good point. In certain rare circumstances the last pit box could be a huge advantage.
For example Ferrari is leading McLaren, but the cars are running nose to tail. They pit on the same lap.
The team in the last box fills .2 seconds less fuel by timing Ferrari's refueling time and executes a pass in the pits.
Granted with a fractional disadvantage in the following stint.
But in certain situations that might benefit them immensely!

But your analagy would only work if Ferrari were in the end garage (first one you come to) and McLaren were further down. Because currently the reds are in garage 1 (furthest from pit entry) so unless that really good gypsy fortune teller is working for McLaren, that wont work......

Oh pants, hang on, it's the other way round, isn't it?

D'oh.

Ok, then that would work.

Tazio

10th March 2008, 12:46

But your analagy would only work if Ferrari were in the end garage (first one you come to) and McLaren were further down. Because currently the reds are in garage 1 (furthest from pit entry) so unless that really good gypsy fortune teller is working for McLaren, that wont work......

Oh pants, hang on, it's the other way round, isn't it?

D'oh.

Ok, then that would work. :)

jjanicke

10th March 2008, 15:58

Ofcourse size matters. Why do you think that people buy bigger houses, bigger cars etc???

As for the pit boxes, I do strongly believe that having 10-15% (and this is just a rough guestimate) less space at disposal for your race team in the garages might hinder you quite a bit when you're a team the size of McL&C.

As pointed out by janneppi the first and last places on the pitlane give a bit of advantage in terms of pitstop duration. This is why I first thought that McL&C will be happy with that, but apparently there are better gains in other areas, like more space for the engineer team and also for the huge motorhome and hospitality area where they can receive their rich sponsors and sponsor wannabes. Not to mention the image advantage, as the don't have to be SAF1's and FI's neighbors!

All in all there is performance and finances related advantage in having a bigger pitbox that isn't at very the end of the pit lane where Super Aguri are stranded.

Quite the speculative statement "All in all there is performance and finances related advantage in having a bigger pitbox that isn't at very the end of the pit lane where Super Aguri are stranded". Anything to back it up with other than your opinion?

ioan

10th March 2008, 16:18

Quite the speculative statement "All in all there is performance and finances related advantage in having a bigger pitbox that isn't at very the end of the pit lane where Super Aguri are stranded". Anything to back it up with other than your opinion?

Maybe you like living in the dogs house more than in your own house?! :rolleyes:

jjanicke

10th March 2008, 16:27

Maybe you like living in the dogs house more than in your own house?! :rolleyes:

You make reference to "performance and finances" benefits from having this mid field garage. Dog house or Villa aside, where do these "performance and finances" benefits come from oh-wise-one?

markabilly

10th March 2008, 16:58

I thought that there are some races where one wishes to be the closest to the pit entry for max benefit, but I can not remember which tracks, or perhaps I am mistaken?

SGWilko

10th March 2008, 17:01

I thought that there are some races where one wishes to be the closest to the pit entry for max benefit, but I can not remember which tracks, or perhaps I am mistaken?

I am sorely dissapointed. You post contained none of the following;

choke
cheat/McCheaters
Hamilton
Daddy
$$$$$$$$$$
or Kool Aid.

Are you a little under the weather? ;)

Bagwan

10th March 2008, 17:09

"Oh , wise one " .
You must mean me .

Firstly , being closer to the corporate amenities is no small detail , as the rich like to have others walk for them .
And , also no small detail is the amount of camera time for the sponsors .

As for the race implications , I would think that the largest advantage to being closer to your main rivals is to be able to see them and react to their actions quicker . Seconds count in the pitlane , and being able to "see the whites of their eyes" before you shoot , would be worth a lot .
To be first means also that you are not concerned with any other teams being in the way on your way in . Teams tend to use all of the allotted space in the box , and this can be a very intimidating thing , especially in such a highly charged atmosphere , having to try to see not only the pitstall you wish to enter , but having to worry about folks coming out in front of you , unsighted , as well .
The closer you are to the sharp end , the fewer less experienced drivers you must navigate through in that mayhem .

Really , the most affected teams might be Force India and Super Aguri , as they stood to get a good look in at the Mac operations all year , and would be on camera a hell of a lot more with McLaren/Mercedes next door .

DonJippo

10th March 2008, 17:13

There is an advantage, perhaps only a perceived one, to having certain pit garages. Which garage the current champions get changes from GP to GP. Usually it's the first garage as they enter the pits but I'm pretty sure it's the last garage at some races as well (Monaco springs to mind).

In Monaco current champion has first garage as they enter the pits.

jjanicke

10th March 2008, 17:53

It's my understanding that the WC team get's to pick either end of the pits and the rest fall in line.

truefan72

10th March 2008, 18:02

this is such a non issue

talk about trying to stir up the partisanship early.

are we going to start off 2008 where we left off in 2008?

let's focus on racing for a refreshing change please

ioan

10th March 2008, 18:05

It's my understanding that the WC team get's to pick either end of the pits and the rest fall in line.

And McLaren are not World Champions, au contraire they are the last :D , so why oh why don't they have to take the exact opposite end?!
Must be because Max doesn't like Ron, as some like to believe.

ioan

10th March 2008, 18:06

are we going to start off 2008 where we left off in 2008?

No! :p :

Big Ben

10th March 2008, 20:56

Please do me a favor, when/if you don't have anything constructive to post...don't post at all. Thank You !

my bad
second attempt
those bloody cheaters and liars... they should be banned for ever from f1. this is the most outrageous form of favoritism we could ever see in f1...

damn you RD... you liar and cheater

and damn you Bernie greedy bast.... and damn all those non ferrari teams and who ever you want

go boil an egg!

mstillhere

10th March 2008, 21:10

my bad
second attempt
those bloody cheaters and liars... they should be banned for ever from f1. this is the most outrageous form of favoritism we could ever see in f1...

damn you RD... you liar and cheater

and damn you Bernie greedy bast.... and damn all those non ferrari teams and who ever you want

go boil an egg!

YES! YES! YYESSS! I am starting liking this guy :)

jjanicke

10th March 2008, 22:22

And McLaren are not World Champions, au contraire they are the last :D , so why oh why don't they have to take the exact opposite end?!
Must be because Max doesn't like Ron, as some like to believe.

Why were tire ovens allowed?
Why were moving aerodynamic devices allowed?
Why .... (the list can go on forever)

Because the rules interpretation allowed for it.

So it appears, to me, that the FIA pit-box-allocation rule is not being broken or interpreted the way some in the threads would like to.

Tazio

10th March 2008, 22:53

Why were tire ovens allowed?
Why were moving aerodynamic devices allowed?
Why .... (the list can go on forever)

Because the rules interpretation allowed for it.

So it appears, to me, that the FIA pit-box-allocation rule is not being broken or interpreted the way some in the threads would like to.I said it once! I said it twice! The third time should be a charm! If the team that vacated pit space 5 did so willingly with any motivation other than pressure from the F1 establishment(Bernie) It is a non-issue IMHO

ioan

10th March 2008, 22:53

Why were tire ovens allowed?
Why were moving aerodynamic devices allowed?
Why .... (the list can go on forever)

Because the rules interpretation allowed for it.

So it appears, to me, that the FIA pit-box-allocation rule is not being broken or interpreted the way some in the threads would like to.

Well, if it appears like that to you, why should I even try to change your tinted view?! :D

Osella

11th March 2008, 00:03

So it appears, to me, that the FIA pit-box-allocation rule is not being broken or interpreted the way some in the threads would like to.

Well, you are wrong.

It has been the case for many years that the constructor's championship has dictated many things thanks to the FIA and FOM.

The reason Ferrari have not carried the traditional numbers 27 and 28 when not constructor's champions for example is because of the FIA rule that numbers will be allocated for each championship season based on the results of the previous year's constructor's championship.
They also applied the same rule to pit garage allocation. The champion team gets to pick which garage they want to operate from (generally that with the biggest space available), and the other garages are allocated on constructor's championship order based on the previous season's results. i.e.McLaren=last.

At many if not most tracks, this has big implications.
Think about it.
If McLaren's 'motorhome' will not fit at the end of a lot of the paddocks, does this not logically imply that one end of the pitlane is smaller than the other at many circuits..

Also, generally the top 2/3 teams 'garages' will in fact be 4 or more garages, whereas the smaller teams will get just one garage per car, with the spare perched in the middle or behind. Just check pitlane shots of Ferrari vs Spyker last season for example.

This should mean that McLaren should be operating in a restricted space, with no room for corporate guests, and less facilities and space for sponsors in the luxury suites above the pit garages themselves.

This has nothing to do with changing tyres in the pitlane, and everything to do with bowing to McLaren's desire to still invite all their corporate cronies, and overblown 'communications centre', and still have enough space to work on their race and spare cars and cater for their corporate guests. (who no doubt will be persuaded to cough up an extra few million dollars in sponsorship this season...) which also allows them an easier way of partially buying themselves out of the fine they were given...

Therefore, allowing them to neatly circumvent this pit-garage side of their punishment makes a joke of issuing it in the first place, and does not hand them the full punishment they were given last season.

So far from being a 'non-issue' :rolleyes: It's actually pretty damn relevant to not only this season, particularly in terms of qualifying and raceday operation, but with new regulations coming on-stream next year (and all the budgetary requirements that will neccessarily entail), the next few years also.

wmcot

11th March 2008, 01:29

It's not their fault they got DQ'd from the '07 championship, but they must accept their punishment.

Really???? I suppose it was the copy shop boy's fault...no wait, it was Ferrari's fault. If they hadn't designed a 2007 car, there would be no stolen documents for McLaren to be in posession of - damn you Ferrari for messing up McLaren's pit location...

If your gonna smoke 'em, you gotta share 'em! :)

Tazio

11th March 2008, 02:21

Well, you are wrong.

It has been the case for many years that the constructor's championship has dictated many things thanks to the FIA and FOM.

The reason Ferrari have not carried the traditional numbers 27 and 28 when not constructor's champions for example is because of the FIA rule that numbers will be allocated for each championship season based on the results of the previous year's constructor's championship.
They also applied the same rule to pit garage allocation. The champion team gets to pick which garage they want to operate from (generally that with the biggest space available), and the other garages are allocated on constructor's championship order based on the previous season's results. i.e.McLaren=last.

At many if not most tracks, this has big implications.
Think about it.
If McLaren's 'motorhome' will not fit at the end of a lot of the paddocks, does this not logically imply that one end of the pitlane is smaller than the other at many circuits..

Also, generally the top 2/3 teams 'garages' will in fact be 4 or more garages, whereas the smaller teams will get just one garage per car, with the spare perched in the middle or behind. Just check pitlane shots of Ferrari vs Spyker last season for example.

This should mean that McLaren should be operating in a restricted space, with no room for corporate guests, and less facilities and space for sponsors in the luxury suites above the pit garages themselves.

This has nothing to do with changing tyres in the pitlane, and everything to do with bowing to McLaren's desire to still invite all their corporate cronies, and overblown 'communications centre', and still have enough space to work on their race and spare cars and cater for their corporate guests. (who no doubt will be persuaded to cough up an extra few million dollars in sponsorship this season...) which also allows them an easier way of partially buying themselves out of the fine they were given...

Therefore, allowing them to neatly circumvent this pit-garage side of their punishment makes a joke of issuing it in the first place, and does not hand them the full punishment they were given last season.

So far from being a 'non-issue' :rolleyes: It's actually pretty damn relevant to not only this season, particularly in terms of qualifying and raceday operation, but with new regulations coming on-stream next year (and all the budgetary requirements that will neccessarily entail), the next few years also.You present a very persuasive argument. But. Is it the rule of law that you base your judgement on? Or is it the bottom line economics that you present, and I repeat, very persuasively. Myself I think a clear-cut rule is exactly that. Now, as usual I am speculating. If this was a straight trade pit 5 for the last pit position, and your objection is more of one that is based on economic repercussions. Is it acceptable for McLaren to acquire pit #5 for remuneration to the "legally" appointed team if this remuneration is in the amount that would benefit the less wealthy team that is equally money hungry in a way that would surpass their financial expectations. Its a win win financial arrangement (theoretically) I’m only playing Devils advocate because bottom line economics seems to always win the day, especially in grey areas.
Is this going to be just one in a succession of rule interpretations that are in vogue for elite f1 teams. McLaren people can point to interpretations that went Ferrari's way (The incredible growing Michelin tyre fiasco. very controversial at the time. although I believed the interpretation was based on rule of law. Others saw it as keeping Ferrari in the race, satisfying sponsors by keeping the eventual outcome in doubt, and being instrumental in the eventual outcome) It appears that F1 is not a rewarding experience for the spectators who expect, and demands fair play!

Hawkmoon

11th March 2008, 04:58

You present a very persuasive argument. But. Is it the rule of law that you base your judgement on? Or is it the bottom line economics that you present, and I repeat, very persuasively. Myself I think a clear-cut rule is exactly that. Now, as usual I am speculating. If this was a straight trade pit 5 for the last pit position, and your objection is more of one that is based on economic repercussions. Is it acceptable for McLaren to acquire pit #5 for remuneration to the "legally" appointed team if this remuneration is in the amount that would benefit the less wealthy team that is equally money hungry in a way that would surpass their financial expectations. Its a win win financial arrangement (theoretically) I’m only playing Devils advocate because bottom line economics seems to always win the day, especially in grey areas.
Is this going to be just one in a succession of rule interpretations that are in vogue for elite f1 teams. McLaren people can point to interpretations that went Ferrari's way (The incredible growing Michelin tyre fiasco. very controversial at the time. although I believed the interpretation was based on rule of law. Others saw it as keeping Ferrari in the race, satisfying sponsors by keeping the eventual outcome in doubt, and being instrumental in the eventual outcome) It appears that F1 is not a rewarding experience for the spectators who expect, and demands fair play!

I don't think it's a simple as McLaren simply buying the 5th garage. McLaren should have been placed last 11th. By jumping into 5th they have pushed all the teams placed 5th through 10th down a spot. I can't see McLaren paying off 6 teams to get the garage. Certainly not after copping a $100 million fine and posting a financial loss last year.

This is Bernie manipulating things so that McLaren (or perhaps Hamilton, more specifically) can be best assured of being in the championship hunt with as few obstacles in his/McLaren's way. McLaren operating out of a cramped (by their usual standards) garage can only hinder them in the title chase, especially if there is little to choose between them and the Reds in terms of car speed.

Rollo

11th March 2008, 05:21

If I was grand poobah of F1 I'd have the teams that came first and second at opposite ends of pit lane. I would have thought that in theory, the closer you were to the middle, the more congested if would be.
Maybe this has something to do with the size of the hospitality boxes above pit lane? I'm just hazarding a guess.

When I was with HSBC and upstairs in pitlane in 2002 at Melbourne (that seems oh so long ago) we were about half way down pit lane and Mr Lauda spent most of the time living up to his name complaining about the facilities.

Tazio

11th March 2008, 05:30

I don't think it's a simple as McLaren simply buying the 5th garage. McLaren should have been placed last 11th. By jumping into 5th they have pushed all the teams placed 5th through 10th down a spot. I can't see McLaren paying off 6 teams to get the garage. Certainly not after copping a $100 million fine and posting a financial loss last year.

This is Bernie manipulating things so that McLaren (or perhaps Hamilton, more specifically) can be best assured of being in the championship hunt with as few obstacles in his/McLaren's way. McLaren operating out of a cramped (by their usual standards) garage can only hinder them in the title chase, especially if there is little to choose between them and the Reds in terms of car speed.
If what you say is correct, and I have no evidence to the contrary.
Are you sure they pushed all the teams down? If so, it is as I stated, braking a rule of law,
put in by the establishment, and apparently the establishment are the facilitators,
That only makes McLaren Accessories! This is bazaar. I'm not going to pitch a fit.
I can't blame Mclaren for trying to move up. I don’t fell like I have all the facts.
So F1 is really just an exhibition, at a museum that Bernie is the owner, and Curator of!

ioan

11th March 2008, 07:38

When I was with HSBC and upstairs in pitlane in 2002 at Melbourne (that seems oh so long ago) we were about half way down pit lane and Mr Lauda spent most of the time living up to his name complaining about the facilities.

I won't contest that, but what about the ones that were at the very back end of the pit lane? Did you go and see how much worse it was for them?

ArrowsFA1

11th March 2008, 08:19

Must be because Max doesn't like Ron, as some like to believe.
Well, no doubt Max would have enjoyed seeing McLaren down at the "poor" end of the pitlane. Wouldn't that have just put Ron in his place. Not that it's personal at all...Nooooooo :D

ioan

11th March 2008, 08:31

Well, no doubt Max would have enjoyed seeing McLaren down at the "poor" end of the pitlane. Wouldn't that have just put Ron in his place. Not that it's personal at all...Nooooooo :D

Maybe, but interesting enough he isn't enforcing the rule about the pit box position. So what happened to the witch hunt against McL&C and Ron???

ArrowsFA1

11th March 2008, 08:35

Maybe, but interesting enough he isn't enforcing the rule about the pit box position. So what happened to the witch hunt against McL&C and Ron???
Bernie happened. What he says goes in the Paddock and perhaps he said to Max "enough is enough".

ioan

11th March 2008, 10:28

Bernie happened. What he says goes in the Paddock and perhaps he said to Max "enough is enough".

That's the problem.
They should just call it Bernie's "MoneyCow" F1 Championship. :s

Tazio

11th March 2008, 12:18

Bernie happened. What he says goes in the Paddock and perhaps he said to Max "enough is enough".To me, if this is the process, than F1 regulation inforcement is an endless succession of "make up calls" Will we ever see the day when the referee's say "We are finnished righting bad dececions we made in the past, and from this point forward, the rules are applied equally to every single team. regardless of unfortunate circumstances, like a team allegidly unkowingly breaking a rule!
Because imo that just leads to more "make up calls"!!

DonJippo

11th March 2008, 12:26

Maybe, but interesting enough he isn't enforcing the rule about the pit box position.

There is no rule about pit box position other than this one:

The FIA will designate an area in the pit lane where each team may work and one places where pit stops may be carried out.Source: http://argent.fia.com/web/fia-public.nsf/16A57B4C6E078BC7C12573FB00429D39/$FILE/1-2008%20F1%20SPORTING%20REGULATIONS%2022-02-2008.pdf?Openelement

ArrowsFA1

11th March 2008, 12:36

To me, if this is the process, than F1 regulation inforcement is an endless succession of "make up calls"
That sums up the current regulation of the sport.

As Knock-on said in the budget cap (http://www.motorsportforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=125380) thread: "This proposal has the opportunity for more loop holes than a knitted jumper", and it's as if Max likes it that way.

ioan

11th March 2008, 13:00

There is no rule about pit box position other than this one:

The FIA will designate an area in the pit lane where each team may work and one places where pit stops may be carried out.
Source: http://argent.fia.com/web/fia-public.nsf/16A57B4C6E078BC7C12573FB00429D39/$FILE/1-2008%20F1%20SPORTING%20REGULATIONS%2022-02-2008.pdf?Openelement

You mean everything boils down to favoritism!
Each with his own, but I do not support such behavior.

Bagwan

11th March 2008, 13:14

Last year , the sport was all about "damage control" .

Rather than seeing how the down-trodden McLaren team rebounds from that torrid year of scandal , and valiantly fights it's way back to a front end pitbox position , though thwarted by the tight quarters , and abject remoteness , we will see them gifted a plum spot , ensuring more raised eyebrows , and shaking heads .

While it's hard to imagine , at this point , how they could concoct a more scandalous season than last year , I suspect we shall see some more good damage for them to control .
This does seem to be getting a head start on it though , as it wasn't until after the GP in Oz last year that they asked about the flexy floors .

Bagwan

11th March 2008, 13:25

Can anyone find another example of a team not placed in the order of points and finishes from the year before , aside from the first race ?
Is this a first ?
Is this cutting some slack on atonement ?

Or , has this happened before , and routine to some degree ?

Is having too much equipment to fit the space a good enough reason to move to a seemingly better spot ?

I think the general public , and me , need these questions answered .

ioan

11th March 2008, 15:46

I think the general public , and me , need these questions answered .

Send Bernie a check with many zeros and he will explain it to you. Otherwise don't bother.

SGWilko

11th March 2008, 15:57

Send Bernie a check with many zeros and he will explain it to you. Otherwise don't bother.

A cheque like this...... £00000000000000000000000000000000 ?

jjanicke

11th March 2008, 16:01

N. Jones

11th March 2008, 16:20

mstillhere

11th March 2008, 16:53

There is no rule about pit box position other than this one:

Source: http://argent.fia.com/web/fia-public.nsf/16A57B4C6E078BC7C12573FB00429D39/$FILE/1-2008%20F1%20SPORTING%20REGULATIONS%2022-02-2008.pdf?Openelement

Hi,
first of all thank you for posting the regulation guide. Also, would you be so kind to send the page on which you found that rule? (I tried myself but I could not find it )starngely enough). Thank you.

Tazio

11th March 2008, 16:55

You are all a funny bunch of arm-chair-warriors. All talk and nothing to back it up. Yes I'm talking to all those casting doubt on Mclaren and their ethics or legality of this pit box placement.

You all seem to have the knowledge, that works well from your arm-chair, but not in real life. This cracks me up, and will certainly put a stain on any future opinions you might post.

According to the sporting regulations:

Section 23.1b: The FIA will designate an area in the pit lane where each team may work and one places where pit stops may be carried out.

So what rule is being broken again?????

You arm-chair-warriors make me laugh!I don't think I can present this post with the same subtlety as you did yours
I believe rules are rules. period.

Now let us move on to the spirit of the rule!
Do you have an opinion about this snippet?

It is reported that Ecclestone, F1's chief executive, actually wanted Mercedes-powered McLaren
to have the third pit area, but Renault - officially third in the championship last year - objected.
http://www.feedmef1.com/html/modules.php?op=modload&name=News&file=article&sid=9332
Flavio given veto power over Bernie?
Well it's probably just a rumor!
Or maybe Bernie didn't want to disadvantage a business partner in another enterprise?
That seems like legitimate criteria for assigning pit positions
Anyway I know unlike the armchair warriors on this site. You must be in rout to Australia
to drive in a Grand Prix. Otherwise that would make you one of us.

DonJippo

11th March 2008, 17:31

Hi,
first of all thank you for posting the regulation guide. Also, would you be so kind to send the page on which you found that rule? (I tried myself but I could not find it )starngely enough). Thank you.

Article 23, pages 9-10.

ioan

11th March 2008, 17:35

According to the sporting regulations:

Section 23.1b: The FIA will designate an area in the pit lane where each team may work and one places where pit stops may be carried out.

So what rule is being broken again?????

You arm-chair-warriors make me laugh!

Look who's talking about armchair warriors (whatever that should be :rolleyes: )!
Bernie isn't the FIA! You should know at least this much. :p :

jjanicke

11th March 2008, 17:35

I don't think I can present this post with the same subtlety as you did yours
I believe rules are rules. period.

Now let us move on to the spirit of the rule!
Do you have an opinion about this snippet?

It is reported that Ecclestone, F1's chief executive, actually wanted Mercedes-powered McLaren
to have the third pit area, but Renault - officially third in the championship last year - objected.
http://www.feedmef1.com/html/modules.php?op=modload&name=News&file=article&sid=9332
Flavio given veto power over Bernie?
Well it's probably just a rumor!
Or maybe Bernie didn't want to disadvantage a business partner in another enterprise?
That seems like legitimate criteria for assigning pit positions
Anyway I know unlike the armchair warriors on this site. You must be in rout to Australia
to drive in a Grand Prix. Otherwise that would make you one of us.

No, the armchair warrior is one who believes to know but doesn't. I neither claim to know, nor make absurd statements based on my lack of knowing.

However 5 min of research undoubtedly showed me that Mclaren and Bernie are not violating any laws as many on this thread have claimed.

That said, my opinion is that Bernie and Mclaren are using their (legal) muscle to gain access to better facilities. Do I ethically agree with this push? No! But that doesn't mean that I condemn it as illegal.

Look who's talking about armchair warriors (whatever that should be :rolleyes: )!
Bernie isn't the FIA! You should know at least this much. :p :

And what does Bernie not being the FIA have to do with this claimed (by many on this thread) unlawful action?

ioan

11th March 2008, 17:36

Good God, what did McLaren ever do to you?

Exactly what they did to all the F1 fans. They lied to us and cheated for a whole season!
While you seem to appreciate such behavior, some of us have a bit higher moral standards and do not share your views.

ioan

11th March 2008, 17:38

No, the armchair warrior is one who believes to know but doesn't. I neither claim to know, nor make absurd statements based on my lack of knowing.

For someone who doesn't know you do argue a bit too much, mostly pointless, but you do. :\

ioan

11th March 2008, 17:39

And what does Bernie not being the FIA have to do with this claimed (by many on this thread) unlawful action?

Exactly as I thought, you didn't even understand the article 23, that you posted in this very thread.

wmcot

11th March 2008, 17:57

Good God, what did McLaren ever do to you?

Taught me "ethics!"

N. Jones

11th March 2008, 19:05

Exactly what they did to all the F1 fans. They lied to us and cheated for a whole season!
While you seem to appreciate such behavior, some of us have a bit higher moral standards and do not share your views.

No, I just am amazed that you are still readying the guillotine over this. There have been many instances of outrageous events in F1. Are you going to let this consume you forever?

Easy Drifter

11th March 2008, 19:10

Wow. 5 pages of blather over what really amounts to nothing. Let us get on with the season and maybe some racing. Yeah, I am guilty too.
Sorry Mods. I just find the pettiness and nasty bias a bit much.
Last year is over so come on 2008.

ioan

11th March 2008, 19:23

No, I just am amazed that you are still readying the guillotine over this. There have been many instances of outrageous events in F1. Are you going to let this consume you forever?

It's not consuming me, au contraire its very entertaining! :D

jjanicke

11th March 2008, 19:44

For someone who doesn't know you do argue a bit too much, mostly pointless, but you do. :\

Wow, very profound ioan, very profound.

Exactly as I thought, you didn't even understand the article 23, that you posted in this very thread.

Interesting defense tactic: Answer a question with a completely irrelevant opinion, and an ill conceived one at that.

Perhaps it will help you to understand that "after discussions between F1 supremo Bernie Ecclestone and the teams" does not mean that Bernie gave Mclaren the pit box. As the rule stats the FIA acted and, in accordance with the rules, issued the pit box to Mclaren "after discussions between F1 supremo Bernie Ecclestone and the teams". Just think a little before opening your mouth.

N. Jones

11th March 2008, 19:44

It's not consuming me, au contraire its very entertaining! :D
:laugh:

Ah, that makes me feel better... still.... I wouldn't dwell on it. What can be done? Is not the team disgraced? Cripes - Ron is getting a divorce for crying out loud! I see no need to constantly comment on their misfortune, unless you are trying to even out all of the flaming hatred Ferrari fans have had to endure over the last successful 50 years (I may not like them, but you can't deny success).

Osella

11th March 2008, 19:53

..especially in grey areas...

Do you mean like Mclaren's garage? :laugh:

mstillhere

11th March 2008, 20:24

No, the armchair warrior is one who believes to know but doesn't. I neither claim to know, nor make absurd statements based on my lack of knowing.

However 5 min of research undoubtedly showed me that Mclaren and Bernie are not violating any laws as many on this thread have claimed.

That said, my opinion is that Bernie and Mclaren are using their (legal) muscle to gain access to better facilities. Do I ethically agree with this push? No! But that doesn't mean that I condemn it as illegal.

And what does Bernie not being the FIA have to do with this claimed (by many on this thread) unlawful action?

I know that I might be asking for too much. But, if there are not any rules about it, what is the ratio about who gets what where when how and so on? They just randomly do that? And if there are not any rules, Renault refused to give up their own spot based on what rule/ratio? They just did not feel like it and Bernie said "OK"!! Just when I thought I had a little clue about F1 here I find myself again in endless black hole.

mstillhere

11th March 2008, 20:33

No, I just am amazed that you are still readying the guillotine over this. There have been many instances of outrageous events in F1. Are you going to let this consume you forever?

Now I kind tend to agree with Ioan on this. The reason being when it was Ferrari caught in something a little greyish, the amount of criticism was incredible. Everybody so offended by the unfair behavior of the red team. And on, and on, and on.... But then McLaren made a huge mistake, they behaved even worse than Ferrari giving us (Ferarri fans) a HUGE amount of ammunition (for years to come). See, what goes around comes around. So, this should teach some humility to the Ferrari opponents and learn that there is no perfection in whatever it is that humans do. On the contrary....but maybe that's a bit too pessimistic.

Osella

11th March 2008, 20:36

This is what I was going to say; while not in the sporting regulations to the best of my knowledge, the pit garage allocation is in the commerical regualtions (i.e. concorde agreement).

N. Jones

11th March 2008, 20:50

Now I kind tend to agree with Ioan on this. The reason being when it was Ferrari caught in something a little greyish, the amount of criticism was incredible. Everybody so offended by the unfair behavior of the red team. And on, and on, and on.... But then McLaren made a huge mistake, they behaved even worse than Ferrari giving us (Ferarri fans) a HUGE amount of ammunition (for years to come). See, what goes around comes around. So, this should teach some humility to the Ferrari opponents and learn that there is no perfection in whatever it is that humans do. On the contrary....but maybe that's a bit too pessimistic.

I agree with the fact that Ferrari-haters have NO defense for McLaren's actions. I also agree that the Ferrari-lovers are going to use this to finally say that not everything that goes Ferrari's way is always their fault! I will also point out that it will always be in the best interests of the governing sport body, of whichever sport they represent, to do EVERYTHING in their power to keep the #1 team on top; regardless of fairness. I could never admit this during the Jordan-led Bulls years but now I see that he was given WAY too much leeway (even his "retirement" is still suspicious after all of these years). The NBA was just protecting their cash cow. Same with the FIA and Ferrari.
Therefore the lovers and haters of Ferrari have been at war for many years and this is one legitimate event that is firmly in the "lovers" camp.

Oh, once again I must protest as I am NOT a McLaren lover. I'm just a newbie fan of four years who enjoys the sport. I don't root for anyone race in and race out.

jjanicke

11th March 2008, 21:02

I know that I might be asking for too much. But, if there are not any rules about it, what is the ratio about who gets what where when how and so on? They just randomly do that? And if there are not any rules, Renault refused to give up their own spot based on what rule/ratio? They just did not feel like it and Bernie said "OK"!! Just when I thought I had a little clue about F1 here I find myself again in endless black hole.

LOL, I'm not too sure any of us will ever find our way out of the "endless black hole". What you mention is a trend that has existed in F1 forever. The rules clearly state that tire ovens are not allowed. Somehow the FIA didn't see it that way afterall. Moveable aero devices are banned yet the FIA doesn't see it that way if it's not considered an aero device (wheel brake covers) but impact airflow around the wheel, yet they ban a non-aero device (mass dampers) because it impacts the aero. And on and on and on .....

Bernie could not have made the decision. He could have only influenced the FIA to allow Mclaren the pit spot the ended up with.

mstillhere

11th March 2008, 21:03

I agree with the fact that Ferrari-haters have NO defense for McLaren's actions. I also agree that the Ferrari-lovers are going to use this to finally say that not everything that goes Ferrari's way is always their fault! I will also point out that it will always be in the best interests of the governing sport body, of whichever sport they represent, to do EVERYTHING in their power to keep the #1 team on top; regardless of fairness. I could never admit this during the Jordan-led Bulls years but now I see that he was given WAY too much leeway (even his "retirement" is still suspicious after all of these years). The NBA was just protecting their cash cow. Same with the FIA and Ferrari.
Therefore the lovers and haters of Ferrari have been at war for many years and this is one legitimate event that is firmly in the "lovers" camp.

Oh, once again I must protest as I am NOT a McLaren lover. I'm just a newbie fan of four years who enjoys the sport. I don't root for anyone race in and race out.

Unfortunately for me I have been in this sport since I was 15. And I can't stop. It's a desease :(

Hawkmoon

11th March 2008, 21:32

Bernie could not have made the decision. He could have only influenced the FIA to allow Mclaren the pit spot the ended up with.

The question is why Bernie would want this if not for his own ends? The reason given in the press for moving McLaren was that their motorhome was too large to fit down that end of the paddock at some races. So does that mean they should allocate garages on the basis of motorhome size? Sounds like a good way for Force India to get up to the head of the queue. All they need to do is bring the Taj Mahal of motorhomes and they can boot Ferrari out of the No. 1 spot!

I beleive that for the same reason that Bernie lobbied for Hamilton and Alonso to escape punishment last season (ie. the drivers championship battle) he has lobbied for McLaren to get this prefferential treatment. He wants to ensure Hamilton has the best chance of contending for the title. There is no way that Bernie wants to see the title fought out between Raikkonen and Massa. He needs Hamilton in there and sticking him down the end where McLaren will not have the optimum working conditions will only hinder that.

So, maybe no black and white regulation has been broken but a convention has certainly been set aside and I think it's only fair that people question the motives behind the decision.

jjanicke

11th March 2008, 21:46

The question is why Bernie would want this if not for his own ends? The reason given in the press for moving McLaren was that their motorhome was too large to fit down that end of the paddock at some races. So does that mean they should allocate garages on the basis of motorhome size? Sounds like a good way for Force India to get up to the head of the queue. All they need to do is bring the Taj Mahal of motorhomes and they can boot Ferrari out of the No. 1 spot!

I beleive that for the same reason that Bernie lobbied for Hamilton and Alonso to escape punishment last season (ie. the drivers championship battle) he has lobbied for McLaren to get this prefferential treatment. He wants to ensure Hamilton has the best chance of contending for the title. There is no way that Bernie wants to see the title fought out between Raikkonen and Massa. He needs Hamilton in there and sticking him down the end where McLaren will not have the optimum working conditions will only hinder that.

So, maybe no black and white regulation has been broken but a convention has certainly been set aside and I think it's only fair that people question the motives behind the decision.

Question motives, for sure!

My struggle is with all these misinformed statements, or armchair warriors as I call them. i.e. "violates the rules", "illegal", ....

Although I'm not a big fan of external influences, and subsequently this interference, I don't find it hard to believe that Bernie is doing as exactly N.Jones points out; Protecting his assests. At times it benefits Ferrari, at times Mclaren ....

N. Jones

11th March 2008, 23:42

Hmmm....last is last. They finished last and should therefore BE last on the pitlane (or at the end, however you wish to call it). Put their motorhome somewhere else. Maybe a nice long walk to it will be a good reminder of the mess they find themselves in! (yes, an extra punishment... but I don't, shouldn't they be at the end, regardless of what expense they put into their motorhomes?)

woody2goody

12th March 2008, 00:14

Really???? I suppose it was the copy shop boy's fault...no wait, it was Ferrari's fault. If they hadn't designed a 2007 car, there would be no stolen documents for McLaren to be in posession of - damn you Ferrari for messing up McLaren's pit location...

If your gonna smoke 'em, you gotta share 'em! :)

What I meant was it's probably not the whole team's fault. They should still go to the end of the queue with The Force and Aguri and Honda.

They have to swallow their pride and do what is right instead of what suits them. This goes for Ferrari, Renault and everyone else in the pitlane. they can't just expect to get away with it.

jjanicke

12th March 2008, 00:48

What I meant was it's probably not the whole team's fault. They should still go to the end of the queue with The Force and Aguri and Honda.

They have to swallow their pride and do what is right instead of what suits them. This goes for Ferrari, Renault and everyone else in the pitlane. they can't just expect to get away with it.

Let's see:

- they already paid a huge monetary fine
- they lost all worldchampionship points, and with it the large sum of championship standing dollars associated with it (granted those $'s were deducted from the $100m fine)
- ...

and yet many paint the picture that Mclaren got away with the penalty because they are not in the last pit box.

WOW

Peace... out!

Valve Bounce

12th March 2008, 01:12

markabilly

12th March 2008, 01:13

I am sorely dissapointed. You post contained none of the following;

choke
cheat/McCheaters
Hamilton
Daddy
$$$$$$$$$$
or Kool Aid.

Are you a little under the weather? ;)

No, I am too choked up over McCheaters cheating again to help Hamilton and his Daddy make lots of $$$$$$$$$$$, only for him to choke again at the end, forcing his followers to go back to drinking the kool aid to blind themselves to the utter truth........ :beer:

thanks for reminding me cause I almost forgot :D

Tazio

12th March 2008, 02:20

There is no way that Bernie wants to see the title fought out between Raikkonen and Massa. r
You know I remember Bernie as a younger more tolerant Miser, which would welcome a fight for the title between Ferrari teammates. Only he was barraged by influences outside "The Rotten State of Tifosi" These hapless victims gained his favor, and convinced him to change the point scoring system. Then, introduce changes radical enough to teach those horrible men at Ferrari to get their drivers to contest each other to the death, or suffer the terror of the V8 torture chamber!

woody2goody

12th March 2008, 02:38

Let's see:

- they already paid a huge monetary fine
- they lost all worldchampionship points, and with it the large sum of championship standing dollars associated with it (granted those $'s were deducted from the $100m fine)
- ...

and yet many paint the picture that Mclaren got away with the penalty because they are not in the last pit box.

WOW

Peace... out!

At the time, before the rule was clarified, with your post actually :) , it seemed like McLaren were getting away with a better pit lane position than to which they were entitled. I didn't mean they had got away with the fine etc. Because I could go on forever about how that was unfair.

wmcot

12th March 2008, 05:10

wmcot

12th March 2008, 05:11

It's not consuming me, au contraire its very entertaining! :D

I agree. It's the other half of what F1 is all about - Politics and Sport. Who could ask for anything better? :D

truefan72

12th March 2008, 06:26

Tazio

12th March 2008, 06:46

time to shut this useless thread down
In the Immortal words of Rambo, John, J.

"NOTHING IS OVER! UNTILL_______SAY IT IS!"

janneppi

12th March 2008, 06:54

but many take this as an opportunity to further their emotionally based non-reality based opinions as if thet were the regents of the sport.
While another vehement sector completely abandons logic for the same old vitriol.

Which one do you belong? :p :

ioan

12th March 2008, 07:37

time to shut this useless thread down

We got a new moderator?!

Just because you don't like the thread it doesn't mean others don't enjoy it! :D
Plus you can simply stop reading it, but I bet you would remember what we post every time you see there are new posts! :p :

PSfan

12th March 2008, 09:38

Been trying to get caught up on this mess, scouring the web for any hints, and tripped over this that might get a few more up in arms :

--------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Mark Webber is already here and Jarno Trulli came in this morning. Some of the others are in Sydney," Grand Prix Corporation chief executive Drew Ward said yesterday.

"About half of the cars are already in the pits so we're running ahead of schedule. And the track looks great, thanks to the great weather lately."

Ward said there had been few changes from earlier years and one which had been predicted, with McLaren moving to the very bottom of the pitlane pecking order, had not happened.

"They certainly have not been consigned to the cheap seats," Ward said.

"Even though they lost all their championship points they have retained their garage allocation. They are number two, alongside Ferrari. They have been granted an amnesty."

http://www.news.com.au/heraldsun/story/0,21985,23347037-39478,00.html
--------------------------------------------------------------------------

However, not sure how much stock i would take in that story, I also tripped over some supposedly "current" pics taken of the pit garages that suggest BMW is beside Ferrari, and MacLeran are beside RBR... also looked like MacLeran where limited to 2 garages. while RBR had 3.

Guess Friday practice isn't to far away, all should be revealed then...

ArrowsFA1

12th March 2008, 10:06

ioan

12th March 2008, 11:04

That'll be Ferrari then :D

That shouldn't be difficult to figure out! ;)

Bagwan

12th March 2008, 13:38

Chances are someone soon will come up with a figure of how much pit garage position will benefit McLaren to the 1,000th of a second on track. You know..."if they hadn't been where they are in the pit lane then they wouldn't have won the race...cheats!!!!" :laugh:

Clearly garage position is central to the outcome of the championship so never mind all this analysis of testing times...a complete waste of time. Just look at how they're lined up in the Melbourne pitlane and we'll have our 2008 champions.

That'll be Ferrari then :D

The problem , though , is that if they had taken the expected pit box , they would not be enduring this bout of rhetoric from the cynics .
They would be asking "can McLaren come back from the back ?" .

Which would you prefer ?

For me , it's not really about the question , but rather , about why they would make it questionable .
It just opens the door to more cans of worms .

Tazio

12th March 2008, 13:46

This tifosi whould just as soon prefer to have those scoundrels within arms reach! :D

Tazio

12th March 2008, 15:14

many take this as an opportunity to further their emotionally based non-reality based opinions as if thet were the regents of the sport.

in 2008, i'll be posting a lot less as it's clear to me that no thread will be immune of lousy partisanship. Some people simply come on this forum for fun. Ones man 's "lousy partisanship", may be another’s good-natured ribbing!

My personal feeling is some people do take this exchange of information, and networking too seriously. I don't feel it's any individual’s job to define what this forum represents! The moderators are here when people cross over the line of propriety
BTW...................I'm Gonna' MISS YOOOOOOOOOOOOUUUUUUUUUUUUU!!!!!!

jjanicke

12th March 2008, 15:14

Glad you enjoy it. Next week we charge admission for those who enjoy and laugh more here.

LOL :)

ioan

12th March 2008, 15:40

The problem , though , is that if they had taken the expected pit box , they would not be enduring this bout of rhetoric from the cynics .
They would be asking "can McLaren come back from the back ?" .

Which would you prefer ?

For me , it's not really about the question , but rather , about why they would make it questionable .
It just opens the door to more cans of worms .

Winning at all costs, that's what describes Ron Dennis and McL&C best.
There is no doubt anymore.

TMorel

12th March 2008, 15:52

surely that's a fitting description to anyone in F1 ?

ArrowsFA1

12th March 2008, 15:57

The problem , though , is that if they had taken the expected pit box , they would not be enduring this bout of rhetoric from the cynics .
They would be asking "can McLaren come back from the back ?" .

Which would you prefer ?
Hobson's choice really.

Even if they were placed in the last garage there are those who would be saying all season that they shouldn't be there at all and if it wasn't about their position in the pitlane it would be something, anything, else.

ioan

12th March 2008, 16:58

surely that's a fitting description to anyone in F1 ?

Wishful thinking.

jjanicke

12th March 2008, 17:28

Winning at all costs, that's what describes Ron Dennis and McL&C best.
There is no doubt anymore.
surely that's a fitting description to anyone in F1 ?Wishful thinking.

Certainly about Ferrari and Mclaren "winning at all costs" is a fitting description!

ioan

12th March 2008, 17:29

ioan

12th March 2008, 17:39

Certainly about Ferrari and Mclaren "winning at all costs" is a fitting description!

Wishful thinking (for die hard McLaren fanatics that is).

Osella

12th March 2008, 22:54

Hobson's choice really.

Even if they were placed in the last garage there are those who would be saying all season that they shouldn't be there at all and if it wasn't about their position in the pitlane it would be something, anything, else.

Actually if you recall, there were several of us who suggested that very thing (That McLaren shouldn't be there at all) last season.

Shame a couple of years ago people, particularly forum moderators for example weren't so concerned with a myriad of threads about how bad Schumacher and Ferrari were and how they ruined F1; indeed they seemed to always want to find something anything else to complain about.

Yet now, questioning some questionable decisions about reducing McLaren's effective punishment is somehow unfair.... jeez. Some short memories people have. I have barely seen anyone actually slate McLaren, or say anything even vaguely slanderous for example on these forms. Totally unlike the days when it was acceptable to call a certain driver a killer for example.

If you don't like to read comments from those of us who are questioning this decision and bringing up some serious criticisms of the way it was achieved, then you don't have to!

Rollo

12th March 2008, 23:08

I won't contest that, but what about the ones that were at the very back end of the pit lane? Did you go and see how much worse it was for them?

Considering that like every set of garages at virtually every track around the world, the difference between one garage and another is virtually nil. They're all built at the same time and all pretty well much identical. The fit-out for the track is then done by the teams themselves.

Really all this is is a matter of position up and down pit lane; to be fair I don't understand what the hoohaa was all about in the first place, because the only place it really matters that you are first is in relation to the line and the chequered flag on Sunday.

mstillhere

13th March 2008, 01:36

Hawkmoon

13th March 2008, 02:10

Considering that like every set of garages at virtually every track around the world, the difference between one garage and another is virtually nil. They're all built at the same time and all pretty well much identical. The fit-out for the track is then done by the teams themselves.

I don't think that's quite right. Take Monaco for example. The teams at the bottom end have (or perhaps had, due to the recent modifications) to keep a lot of their equipment at a seperate location because they simply don't have the room to store it in the garage.

There must be some difference between the two ends of the pitlane or McLaren and Bernie wouldn't have bothered to get McLaren moved. The reason given that McLaren's "Communications Centre" is too big for that end of the paddock suggests that there is a marked difference between the two ends of the paddock, which is behind the pits. So even if the pit boxes are the same size, the room behind them appears to differ from one end to the other.

People are questioning why McLaren are getting preferential treatment, even if it only effects their off-track performance and not their on-track performance. Why should McLaren get allowances that the 6 teams they jumped ahead of aren't entitled to? Those other teams kept their 2007 points afterall.

Really all this is is a matter of position up and down pit lane; to be fair I don't understand what the hoohaa was all about in the first place, because the only place it really matters that you are first is in relation to the line and the chequered flag on Sunday.

You're right here in that in the grand scheme of things McLaren's home in the pitlane isn't going to make their car faster or slower. However, when you consider how much enjoyment we of the Tifosi get watching McLaren and Ol' Ron squirm, our protestations that McLaren have had their "punishment" lessened is somewhat understandable, no?

Tazio

13th March 2008, 04:03

You're right here in that in the grand scheme of things McLaren's home in the pitlane isn't going to make their car faster or slower. However, when you consider how much enjoyment we of the Tifosi get watching McLaren and Ol' Ron squirm, our protestations that McLaren have had their "punishment" lessened is somewhat understandable, no?Yea!! What is this, the Food Network? You can't just bring in Emeril Lagassi
to say "BAM! Let's kick it up a notch"(or eight) sprinkle a little Essence on Ron's forehead,
and have him appear in pit position (take you frickin' pick)
'Tis a rather unpalatable "kettle of stew" if you ask me!

gloomyDAY

13th March 2008, 04:12

Yea!! What is this, the Food Network? You can't just bring in Emeril Lagassi
to say "BAM! Let's kick it up a notch"(or eight) sprinkle a little Essence on Ron's forehead,
and have him appear in pit position (take you frickin' pick)
'Tis a rather unpalatable "kettle of stew" if you ask me!
LOL!

http://daytimetalk.com/wp-content/uploads/2007/10/emerilgumbo.jpg

Can someone photoshop Bernie's head in there?

Tazio

13th March 2008, 04:23

LOL!

http://daytimetalk.com/wp-content/uploads/2007/10/emerilgumbo.jpg

Can someone photoshop Bernie's head in there? :D
:D
:D :D:

wmcot

13th March 2008, 05:51

time to shut this useless thread down
no rules were broken which the "actual rule" clearly indicates

but many take this as an opportunity to further their emotionally based non-reality based opinions as if thet were the regents of the sport.
While another vehement sector completely abandons logic for the same old vitriol.

in 2008, i'll be posting a lot less as it's clear to me that no thread will be immune of lousy partisanship.

Hey, we're just discussing a simple issue and asking the question, "Why?" as to why things are the way they are. No offense meant! It's not like were calling flexible floors "illegal" or anything!

Anyway, don't let the cursor hit you on the way out... ;)

ArrowsFA1

13th March 2008, 08:57

Actually if you recall, there were several of us who suggested that very thing (That McLaren shouldn't be there at all) last season.
Really? Well stone me :eek: Bit of a coincidence that I should bring it up then :p

...questioning some questionable decisions about reducing McLaren's effective punishment is somehow unfair.... jeez.
Who's saying it's unfair? I'm just saying it's inevitable.

I have barely seen anyone actually slate McLaren...
:rotflmao:

ioan

13th March 2008, 08:59

Anyway, don't let the cursor hit you on the way out... ;)

To late, I've got him! :D

Rollo

13th March 2008, 21:51

I don't think that's quite right. Take Monaco for example. The teams at the bottom end have (or perhaps had, due to the recent modifications) to keep a lot of their equipment at a seperate location because they simply don't have the room to store it in the garage.

I'm afraid that this doesn't bear any weight. At Monaco although everyone's space is cramped, I can not believe that the teams wouldn't be allocated an equal area in what's otherwise a rectangular space.
I'm calling shenanigans on this until something more concrete is shown.

Certainly in Melbourne, the garages themselves are virtually identical.

jso1985

14th March 2008, 01:43

If Ferrari isn't complaining, then I think they aren't gaining any performance advantage...

In the end they have now more space for guests... and I don't think that would make the drivers drive fasters right?

I don't agree with the decision, they should have stayed at Pit 11 but I also don't see a reason to make such huge deal about it

Hawkmoon

14th March 2008, 02:31

I'm afraid that this doesn't bear any weight. At Monaco although everyone's space is cramped, I can not believe that the teams wouldn't be allocated an equal area in what's otherwise a rectangular space.
I'm calling shenanigans on this until something more concrete is shown.

Certainly in Melbourne, the garages themselves are virtually identical.

The teams aren't or weren't allocated the same space at Monaco. I've seen footage of F1 cars being towed through the streets of Monaco to get to the pits because the team didn't have the spce to keep the spare car in the garage. Only the teams at the pointy end had enough space to keep their gear in the garages.

It may not be the case anymore as they have done a lot of work on the Monaco pits in recent years.

As for Melbourne, check a photo of the Super Aguri pits compared to the Ferrari ones. Ferrari have three garages, Super Aguri only two. Super Aguri's spare car is sandwiched between the two race cars where as the spare F2008 has a garage of it's own.

wmcot

14th March 2008, 05:28

To late, I've got him! :D

That was cursor, not curser! :)

neil40

17th March 2008, 11:30

Hi

As McLaren were penalised for last years demeanours, and consequently have the last two team numbers (22/23), why then, were they not at the end of the pit lane in Australia (and I presume, elsewhere)? There seemed to be at least 2 other teams behind them from what I could see.

Cheers
Neil

yodasarmpit

17th March 2008, 18:44

F1 stinks on the McLaren side!
Bernie is not giving up on protecting Lewy's chances!

I agree that they should have to move to the end pit, as they officially came in last the previous season.

However, your post above just proves what an idiot you are.
When the governing body imposed a $100M Dollar fine against McLaren how can you suggest they favour McLaren?
If you had just said they should be using the pit they were allocated at the end of last season then fine, but to turn this into another anti Ferrari conspiracy thread is just laughable.

The way you contradict yourself at every turn is almost beyond belief.

ioan

17th March 2008, 19:30

However, your post above just proves what an idiot you are.

Aren't you Scottish by chance?! You talk like if you were DC's bro! :rolleyes:

yodasarmpit

17th March 2008, 19:37

:)
Nice retort.

All I'm saying is you can't have your cake and eat it.
You continually go on how the FIA favours McLaren but conveniently omit any mention of the punishments handed out against them.

There is no grand conspiracy.

And I actually agreed with you on the pit placement.

BDunnell

17th March 2008, 19:39

If you had just said they should be using the pit they were allocated at the end of last season then fine, but to turn this into another anti Ferrari conspiracy thread is just laughable.

I'm sure I'm not alone in wishing that this sort of thing would stop being brought up in the same way over and over again at the merest excuse. Can we not all just enjoy the racing?

jjanicke

17th March 2008, 19:44

yodasarmpit don't even bother. When you post a question or statement that Ioan can't hanlde you get a "Aren't you Scottish by chance?! " or similar in return.

Rollo

17th March 2008, 23:01

As for Melbourne, check a photo of the Super Aguri pits compared to the Ferrari ones. Ferrari have three garages, Super Aguri only two. Super Aguri's spare car is sandwiched between the two race cars where as the spare F2008 has a garage of it's own.

1. There are no spare cars allowed for the 2008 season. Therefore Ferrari like everyone else can not possibly have have a spare car in a third garage.

2. There was a CAMS policy document emailed on the 3rd of March which contains the following information among other things:

ING Australian Grand Prix
Pit Garage Allocation List:

1. FIA Safety and Monitoring
2. Scuderia Ferrari
3. Scuderia Ferrari
4. V8 Supercar Access
5. AT&T Williams F1
6. AT&T Williams F1
7. Free Space
8. BMW Sauber
9. BMW Sauber
10. Free Space
11. ING Renault F1
12. ING Renault F1
13. Free Space
14. Vodafone McLaren Mercedes
15. Vodafone McLaren Mercedes
16. FIA Safety and Monitoring
17. Panasonic Toyota Racing
18. Panasonic Toyota Racing
19. Free Space
20. Red Bull Racing
21. Red Bull Racing
22. Free Space
23. Scuderia Toro Rosso
24. Scuderia Toro Rosso
25. Free Space
26. Force 1ndia
27. Force 1ndia
28. V8 Supercar Access
29. Honda Racing F1
30. Honda Racing F1
31. Free Space
32. Super Aguri F1
33. Super Aguri F1
34. FIA Safety and Monitoring
35. FIA Live Timing
36. Free Space

Now I'm not sure what the regulations are with regards "Free Space" but it seems to me that more than just McLaren were moved down pit lane.

Because CAMS are the local officials who provide the marshalling, the logistics and the facilities for the event, then it makes sense that they would have been consulted. You could call them into question, but I note that no-one has made an officia protest to the FIA that McLaren were given an unfair advantage because of their Pit Allocation.

Again, If you can prove your hypothesis then please do so.

jjanicke

17th March 2008, 23:38

Rollo nice stats. Thanks,

From front to back: Ferrari, Williams, BMW, Renault, Mclaren, Toyota, RBR, STR, Force India, Honda, Super Best Friends

Last years championship standings: Ferrari, BMW, Renault, Williams, RBR, Toyota, STR, Honda, Super Best Friends, Force India (Spyker), Mclaren

Looks like Mclaren weren't the only ones to get a different pit allocation than the 07 championship would predict.

PSfan

19th March 2008, 07:13

1. There are no spare cars allowed for the 2008 season. Therefore Ferrari like everyone else can not possibly have have a spare car in a third garage.

2. There was a CAMS policy document emailed on the 3rd of March which contains the following information among other things:

ING Australian Grand Prix
Pit Garage Allocation List:

1. FIA Safety and Monitoring
2. Scuderia Ferrari
3. Scuderia Ferrari
4. V8 Supercar Access
5. AT&T Williams F1
6. AT&T Williams F1
7. Free Space
8. BMW Sauber
9. BMW Sauber
10. Free Space
11. ING Renault F1
12. ING Renault F1
13. Free Space
14. Vodafone McLaren Mercedes
15. Vodafone McLaren Mercedes
16. FIA Safety and Monitoring
17. Panasonic Toyota Racing
18. Panasonic Toyota Racing
19. Free Space
20. Red Bull Racing
21. Red Bull Racing
22. Free Space
23. Scuderia Toro Rosso
24. Scuderia Toro Rosso
25. Free Space
26. Force 1ndia
27. Force 1ndia
28. V8 Supercar Access
29. Honda Racing F1
30. Honda Racing F1
31. Free Space
32. Super Aguri F1
33. Super Aguri F1
34. FIA Safety and Monitoring
35. FIA Live Timing
36. Free Space

Now I'm not sure what the regulations are with regards "Free Space" but it seems to me that more than just McLaren were moved down pit lane.

Because CAMS are the local officials who provide the marshalling, the logistics and the facilities for the event, then it makes sense that they would have been consulted. You could call them into question, but I note that no-one has made an officia protest to the FIA that McLaren were given an unfair advantage because of their Pit Allocation.

Again, If you can prove your hypothesis then please do so.

I just took 2 minutes to double check this, watching my recording BMW & Renault are clearly between Ferrari and Williams...