WRC Testing

[dimviii]

Μeeke 1st day
https://youtu.be/_zINOdnJXWk

[Fast Eddie WRC]

the mindblowing is that he cant understand that the video is speed up.

Tell that to BILLIOT Jérémie ‏@planetemarcus who posted it...

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Czyq0ptWEAA6wyI.jpg

[dimviii]

Tell that to BILLIOT Jérémie ‏@planetemarcus who posted it...


why I have to tell?

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Cz51fqPXcAAiJrR.jpg

[Fast Eddie WRC]

why I have to tell?


That you say his video is fake, speeded up.

[dimviii]

yes it is speed up.Its not the only one that is speed up,plenty of videos are like this.
Havent you noticed?

[nafpaktos]

dim on this particular video i can't notice it

[N.O.T]

Ok. Tell me how many secs/km, please. Eager to hear your expert eyes. Says so much of coming season.

0.754 at least.

[Rallyper]

Per really you cant see any difference watching c3 and yaris videos?

No. No. No. Too old. ;)

[Rallyper]

Rallyper showed limitless trust to me by asking me how slow yaris is and I told him.I never keep the Knowledge for myself,I always give my insight.Another forum member asked (rally power)how faster the new generation will be.Once more I will give the answers by quoting what a great driver once said.

<Testing back-to-back with the new and the old impreza,using the same tyres,the same set-ups,on a small 2.5-km test road,the 2000 car was consistenly 1.5 seconds quicker than the previous model.I was driving both cars,so I knew that extra speed was purely in the car alone.The old car was already very good on gravel but I could feel that the new car was faster.It felt sharper,lighter and could pull itself out of corners better.> Richard Burns(comparing 1999 and 2000 impreza wrc).

Taking in account that the new impreza was 0,6 sec/km faster under the SAME regulations i think it is easy for everyone to solve the equation about the new wrcars.I can say that in clear conditions(MC is not that kind of rally because of his unique nature) especially after the mid of the season(when the engineers and the drivers will know how exactly the car behaves) the new generation will be 2 sec/km faster for FOR SURE.Thanks

P.S
1) I am not that great as NOT is but at least I try.
2)I expect at least two likes from rallyper otherwise I will consider him as rude and ungrateful person without manners.

I love you greeks. :) :)

[Rallyper]

0.754 at least.

Stop, stop. Enough! Happy with 0,2 -0,3 sec/km.

[MartijnS]

yes it is speed up.Its not the only one that is speed up,plenty of videos are like this.
Havent you noticed?

You're always talking about speed up videos haha. Don't notice anything strange about it. Why would someone speed a video up?

[dimviii]

You're always talking about speed up videos haha. Don't notice anything strange about it. Why would someone speed a video up?

iam not always talk about speed up videos,i am talking about some videos that they are playing in faster than normal speed.If they are by purpose or some technical reason I don't know.The video we were talking about the Yaris withLatvala at the uphill hairpin is speedup.

[Mirek]

You're always talking about speed up videos haha. Don't notice anything strange about it. Why would someone speed a video up?

I am not knowledgeble about the way how Youtube works but very often I have a feeling that the very same video plays on diferent speed in different resolutions. Is that possible?

[dimviii]

dim on this particular video i can't notice it

listen the antilag sound,from another video from Yaris,and then listen the antilag before Yaris approach this hairpin.

[Franky]

I am not knowledgeble about the way how Youtube works but very often I have a feeling that the very same video plays on diferent speed in different resolutions. Is that possible?

Yes, the higher frame rate options play differently (like it is sped up) compared to the normal frame rate videos.

[EightGear]

Yes 60 fps makes it look faster while it's only smoother, not faster.

[chris_bakelas]

https://youtu.be/unKcBvhQegI
Meeke!!! Is this video speed up? :p

Στλθηκε απ το LG-D802 μου χρησιμοποιντας Tapatalk

[smsgrafica]

Don't you guys think it's a bit strange that Ogier is on holiday, having done only one real test with the Fiesta, while JML is practically driving every day?

I know the Yaris needs to be developed more than the Fiesta and I agree Ogier is a better driver than JML, but I think I'd be driving as much as possible to get good grips on the new car.

[stefanvv]

Yes 60 fps makes it look faster while it's only smoother, not faster.

Smoother actually looks slower. I have noticed speed up playing 60fps on lower frame rates.

[dimviii]

Don't you guys think it's a bit strange that Ogier is on holiday, having done only one real test with the Fiesta, while JML is practically driving every day?

I know the Yaris needs to be developed more than the Fiesta and I agree Ogier is a better driver than JML, but I think I'd be driving as much as possible to get good grips on the new car.

Ogier had his birthday at 17 December(yesterday).Probably he wanted to be with his family.

[EstWRC]

And maybe the fiesta is just such a good car?

[smsgrafica]

Well, he won't test until next year. That's a very long time...

[wwbroe]

Well, he won't test until next year. That's a very long time...

It isn't that long, in two weeks time it is new year. I think he deserves some vacation after a long season, and I am sure he will be in good form for MC2017:D

[A FONDO]

Sordo also testing for the last time this year, but where :confused: Spain, or France

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Cz8druVXUAAA2qn.jpg:orig

[dimviii]

Traxx - WR is Free ‏@Traxx_WiF

@DaniSordo & @MarcMartiWRC testing the i20 #WRC on Monte roads #wrc2017 #superpowered

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Cz9F0rbW8AAeuf2.jpg
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Cz9F2geW8AAov8A.jpg
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Cz9F-RiXcAA0GJz.jpg

[dimviii]

Hanninen small clips today with Yaris
https://twitter.com/planetemarcus

[dimviii]

Sordo
https://twitter.com/Traxx_WiF/media

[FAlonso]

Sordo today:

https://youtu.be/_GJt9omGpMs

[Andre Oliveira]

Juho: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8E5B9K8LNlE

[Rally Power]

Rallyper showed limitless trust to me by asking me how slow yaris is and I told him.I never keep the Knowledge for myself,I always give my insight.Another forum member asked (rally power)how faster the new generation will be.Once more I will give the answers by quoting what a great driver once said.
<Testing back-to-back with the new and the old impreza,using the same tyres,the same set-ups,on a small 2.5-km test road,the 2000 car was consistenly 1.5 seconds quicker than the previous model.I was driving both cars,so I knew that extra speed was purely in the car alone.The old car was already very good on gravel but I could feel that the new car was faster.It felt sharper,lighter and could pull itself out of corners better.> Richard Burns(comparing 1999 and 2000 impreza wrc).
Taking in account that the new impreza was 0,6 sec/km faster under the SAME regulations i think it is easy for everyone to solve the equation about the new wrcars.I can say that in clear conditions(MC is not that kind of rally because of his unique nature) especially after the mid of the season(when the engineers and the drivers will know how exactly the car behaves) the new generation will be 2 sec/km faster for FOR SURE.Thanks


Congrats naftaktos, you’re the first brave enough to put a number on the table! 2s/km seems huge, but at the end you may be right.

I bet on a 1,5s/km gap, more or less the same difference there's between current WRC’s and R5’s.

[dupanton]

Congrats naftaktos, you’re the first brave enough to put a number on the table! 2s/km seems huge, but at the end you may be right.

I bet on a 1,5s/km gap, more or less the same difference there's between current WRC’s and R5’s.

It is over 1s/km for sure

[nafpaktos]

Congrats naftaktos, you’re the first brave enough to put a number on the table! 2s/km seems huge, but at the end you may be right.

I bet on a 1,5s/km gap, more or less the same difference there's between current WRC’s and R5’s.

2 sec/km i know is huge but i think it will be easy achievable to high speed sections after the mid of the season.in the slow sections no.

[N.O.T]

2 sec/km i know is huge but i think it will be easy achievable to high speed sections after the mid of the season.in the slow sections no.

i think its the opposite you need power to drive you out of slower corners on fast section you just drive with the flow.

[dimviii]

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Cz_Ii1LXcAgyasP.jpg
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Cz_Ii1LWgAA0gCy.jpg
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Cz_Ii1PW8AAJPiY.jpg
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Cz_Ii1TXEAEskgS.jpg

[chris_bakelas]

https://youtu.be/dcSvHjbkQB4
Sordo. Nice engine sound!!!

Στλθηκε απ το LG-D802 μου χρησιμοποιντας Tapatalk

[nafpaktos]

i think its the opposite you need power to drive you out of slower corners on fast section you just drive with the flow.

the torque is almost the same.so not huge difference i think in slow sections.of course the exits from hairpins are better,it is something easily seen from vids but how much better a new wrc can do 0-100 km/h ?i don't think much better.in the fast sections the extra width and the aerodynamics will give the car the extra stability that enables the driver to push harder and brake better.from what i have read from interviews the drivers say that in high speeds the new cars are glued to the ground.

p.s one more reason. i watched an onboard some weeks ago with jari(tarmac).the top speed was 200 km/h,he was on this speed for some seconds.in the same road a new wrcar(with similar transmision) i think that will give higher top speed.

[Barreis]

Bring back lancia delta hf integrale gp. A, please

[N.O.T]

Bring back lancia delta hf integrale gp. A, please

why ?

[Barreis]

why ?

I miss the old days of rallying

[Coach 2]

2 sec/km i know is huge but i think it will be easy achievable to high speed sections after the mid of the season.in the slow sections no.

Some Numbers. 25 cec per km= 144 km per hour.
23 cec per km= 156,5 km per hour.

[EightGear]

I miss the old days of rallying
Thanks for that random comment, very useful.

[N.O.T]

I miss the old days of rallying

ok but make sure you get a cab back home though.

[Rallyper]

Congrats naftaktos, you’re the first brave enough to put a number on the table! 2s/km seems huge, but at the end you may be right.

I bet on a 1,5s/km gap, more or less the same difference there's between current WRC’s and R5’s.

I must clear out once for all that I was as sarcastic I could asking about times secs/km. Just for your knowledge. The answers I got only showed how stupid the discussion is.

[Toyoda]

Observations so far,
Citroen more stable, less twitchy on the exits compared to Hyundai,
May be a stiffer chassis with softer suspension than the Hyundai? or diff?

Anyone know how far they can go with changes to the car between tarmac and gravel? As far as adjustable stiffening of the chassis? Suspension mount points?

Cheers

[EstWRC]

Hanninen https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pc3kslKcjH0

[J_n_z]

Hanninen https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pc3kslKcjH0

What if this car is actually very fast?

I can imagine, that they know what they are doing... They have made three different test cars. From very odd testing 1,5 months ago, they come to completely acceptable car behavior... with that pace of evolution, they can be in the mix for top spots very soon.

[cali]

I must say it does not look bad at all anymore.

Sent from my ONEPLUS A3003 using Tapatalk

[A FONDO]

Sordo by SUD https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v9rHiwVcVTQ

[A FONDO]

What if this car is actually very fast?

I can imagine, that they know what they are doing... They have made three different test cars. From very odd testing 1,5 months ago, they come to completely acceptable car behavior... with that pace of evolution, they can be in the mix for top spots very soon.

And you measure that by the level of engine noise, or what? Can't you see how early he brakes? You are just deceived by the straight sections, imagine it on the twisty path Sordo tested yesterday.

[GravelBen]

Observations so far,
Citroen more stable, less twitchy on the exits compared to Hyundai

If you're basing that on the Monte test vids posted this week it looks like very different road conditions, looked very slippery and dirty surface with icy patches in the Sordo vid while Citroen were testing on more consistent looking roads.

Its hard to make any sort of meaningful comparison based on a few test clips from different roads in different conditions, plus not knowing what elements they were testing - for example Sordo might have been seeing how much he can get away on an icy stage with a drier tarmac setup.

Its fun to watch the testing vids and can give an insight into the cars behaviour if you watch a lot of them, but I think some people read too much into them and jump to conclusions about the cars too quickly.

It will be very interesting to see what the clock says when we see them in competition...

[GravelBen]

I'm finding it interesting too how different an impression you can get from different videos of the same test - you can watch one video and think the car looks twitchy and unstable, then watch another with a different angle and/or different corners and it looks smooth and planted. Reminding me to follow my own advice about not jumping to conclusions!

[Andre Oliveira]

Kari Nuutinen

Latvala non stop

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/C0CvvY4WIAEFjgj.jpg

[Rally Power]

I must clear out once for all that I was as sarcastic I could asking about times secs/km. Just for your knowledge. The answers I got only showed how stupid the discussion is.

I know you were teasing Rallyper, but actually we can go a bit further than the random impressions from the tests videos and try to make an educated guess on the ’17 WRC ‘s overall speed gain over the current ones, based on past experiences, new regs and the general feeling from the testing. It may be a worthless exercise, but it doesn’t seem that stupid. Besides, we’ve 4 long weeks till MC begins and rumors will probably end as soon as MC full list comes out...

[dimviii]

https://youtu.be/m07Hx-h9QuQ


watch the door

http://planetemarcus.com/wordpress/wp-content/gallery/test-hyundai-monte-carlo-2017/Test_Hyundai_MonteCarlo17_2.jpg
http://planetemarcus.com/wordpress/wp-content/gallery/test-hyundai-monte-carlo-2017/Test_Hyundai_MonteCarlo17_1.jpg
http://planetemarcus.com/wordpress/wp-content/gallery/test-hyundai-monte-carlo-2017/Test_Hyundai_MonteCarlo17_4.jpg

[dimviii]

small clip with Latvala at snow
https://twitter.com/JoMoWRC

[Rallyper]

It´s free to speculate. Doing it an educated way might even get an interesting discussion. However as long as the cars don´t do their tests at same spots same days and with times shown, for me it´s not an option trying to guess their mutual speed .
After RMC and RS and Mexico we´ll have an indication.

[rogef]

Today

Toyota yaris wrc on the snow with JM Latvala
Credits: TheTeevoman

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kbwVWSlKUnA

[dimviii]

Traxx - WR is Free ‏@Traxx_WiF

@krismeeke & @SLefebvreRallye testing the C3 #wrc in the snow before Monté-Carlo


https://pbs.twimg.com/media/C0DdoMOWEAAi57Q.jpg
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/C0Ddo6aXAAABQQF.jpg

[A FONDO]

Some short Meeke clips in-the-snow https://twitter.com/Remmcrae/media

[rogef]

Movie through a drone. It seems fast ...

Yaris

https://www.youtube.com/shared?ci=RFE07xd2jqQ

[KKS]

Movie through a drone. It seems fast ...

Yaris

https://www.youtube.com/shared?ci=RFE07xd2jqQ
it's speed up video

[Franky]

it's speed up video

And not original audio.

[KKS]

And not original audio.
Look at the dust. He's coming out unrealistically quickly

[rogef]

The sound seems normal since it is picked up many meters high. Now it also seems to me that the video is accelerating

[Franky]

The drones are very noisy and yet the audio is clean. There are four propellers spinning not very far from the camera.

[dimviii]

Movie through a drone. It seems fast ...

Yaris

https://www.youtube.com/shared?ci=RFE07xd2jqQ

this is the faster video I ever seen lol.I really cant understand what the f"ck is this?
plenty other videos are a little bit speed up,even with c3 ones,but you have to watch carefully to understand.
they really destroy their work with this.

[stefanvv]

Movie through a drone. It seems fast ...

No, it is looking ridiculous. I don't understand this mania for speeding up the video. You can do it in youtube player anyway if it amuses you.

[dimviii]

another one with Latvala at snow
https://youtu.be/BWTM1mQcXyY

[SubaruNorway]

The drones are very noisy and yet the audio is clean. There are four propellers spinning not very far from the camera.

The audio is probably picked up by a phone or cheap audio recorder by the road. I tried hanging a USB recorder in a string 3m under my DJI Phantom once, even then the propeller noise was too loud. This one is definitely not made correct frame wize.

[dimviii]

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/C0EbD8rWgAI4Hmj.jpg

best looking by far imho

https://scontent-frt3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/15578889_1191011047656156_6629036095797978057_n.jp g?oh=cb2f2fc4a322770b1b32e12c717a5ec0&oe=58EF03EF

[Andre Oliveira]

Two kings of tarmac ;)

[Lundefaret]

another one with Latvala at snow
https://youtu.be/BWTM1mQcXyY

Looking very good, especially towards the end of the film (too soft in the start). Latvala is a technically gifted test pilot, I think it was a very good choice to bring him in on this project.

[rogef]

No, it is looking ridiculous. I don't understand this mania for speeding up the video. You can do it in youtube player anyway if it amuses you.


I just found the video on YouTube and shared it. I did not film or even know who filmed.

[Extremrallye]

Hi, Dani yesterday.
https://youtu.be/m07Hx-h9QuQ
Spécial Hello to Ole. :-)

[stefanvv]

I just found the video on YouTube and shared it. I did not film or even know who filmed.

I know;) Just expressing my thoughts.

[rogef]

I know;) Just expressing my thoughts.

You did very well. It is always good to express our thoughts.. 👍

[stefanvv]

You did very well.

I know.

[Toyoda]

If you're basing that on the Monte test vids posted this week it looks like very different road conditions, looked very slippery and dirty surface with icy patches in the Sordo vid while Citroen were testing on more consistent looking roads.

Its hard to make any sort of meaningful comparison based on a few test clips from different roads in different conditions, plus not knowing what elements they were testing - for example Sordo might have been seeing how much he can get away on an icy stage with a drier tarmac setup.

Its fun to watch the testing vids and can give an insight into the cars behaviour if you watch a lot of them, but I think some people read too much into them and jump to conclusions about the cars too quickly.

It will be very interesting to see what the clock says when we see them in competition...

Yesyes agreed, I maybe reading to much into it as they are all in different conditions and on different test schedules

[A FONDO]

8 minutes of Sordo. Pushing more than anyone else these days :)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c-1szs5Rqsk

[dimviii]

Meeke snow

https://youtu.be/EohYi_hKkR8


https://pbs.twimg.com/media/C0G8IHXXEAEseHi.jpg
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/C0G8HjVWEAAtRir.jpg
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/C0G8G5hXgAAh8bw.jpg

[smsgrafica]

I still can't understand why M-Sport is the only team that has stopped testing...

[rallyfiend]

I still can't understand why M-Sport is the only team that has stopped testing...

Have they run out of test days?

Citroen and Toyota are not restricted in test days because they were not registered manufacturers in 2016...

[dimviii]

Opens&Tightens ‏@OpensTightens

#WRC 2017 #RallyeMonteCarlo @CitroenRacing's PET feat. @krismeeke @paulnagle1
Perfect background to be testing #RMC!
Pics @RallyeSport

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/C0HuAX9W8AAO8AH.jpg
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/C0HuA_bWQAAG8yK.jpg
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/C0Ht_MOWIAE3_gw.jpg
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/C0HuB7wWQAADfBO.jpg

[er88]

Il admit the Toyota looks like it's definitely improved a lot over the last month or so. I still don't understand why they only started tarmac testing a month or so before the homologation though? Wtf is that all about?

Sent from my SM-G920F using Tapatalk

[dimviii]

Mika Aatos Kiviaho
‏@MKiviaho
Toyota Yaris Wrc wintertest 20.12.2016 @TGR_WRC @JariMattiWRC @MiikkaAnttila

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/C0HJnDOWgAANVxP.jpg
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/C0HJvGGXgAAZOVJ.jpg
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/C0HJxHpWIAALyI5.jpg
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/C0HJzdiWQAAMS5U.jpg

[stefanvv]

Il admit the Toyota looks like it's definitely improved a lot over the last month or so. I still don't understand why they only started tarmac testing a month or so before the homologation though? Wtf is that all about?

Nothing dramatic. They said that was their plan.

[dimviii]

Il admit the Toyota looks like it's definitely improved a lot over the last month or so. I still don't understand why they only started tarmac testing a month or so before the homologation though? Wtf is that all about?

Sent from my SM-G920F using Tapatalk

we have see a faster Yaris when Latvala came.

[er88]

Nothing dramatic. They said that was their plan.
Well it's obviously been a bad plan considering the struggles the car has on tarmac, which both Ogier and Latvala have commented on.

Sent from my SM-G920F using Tapatalk

[stefanvv]

Well it's obviously been a bad plan considering the struggles the car has on tarmac, which both Ogier and Latvala have commented on.

Sent from my SM-G920F using Tapatalk

May be, but still a plan.

[smsgrafica]

Have they run out of test days?

Citroen and Toyota are not restricted in test days because they were not registered manufacturers in 2016...
I don't know, but Hyundai is still testing...

[Rally Power]

Have they run out of test days?
Citroen and Toyota are not restricted in test days because they were not registered manufacturers in 2016...

Till the end of year, rigth? Btw, what about that team base rule; if Toyota is free to test anytime in Finland, then Citroen also should be in France, MSport in GB and Hyundai in Germany?

[A FONDO]

I read some years back that this free testing may only be done on specific closed private place, not anywhere in the country.

[Andre Oliveira]

M-Sport will test to Monte-Carlo in january. Others too?

[dimviii]

M-Sport will test to Monte-Carlo in january. Others too?

I think all teams will test at January.

[dimviii]

small clip with Latvala at night
https://twitter.com/rallyparadise

[dimviii]

Latvala again
https://youtu.be/weugXhTjv7Q

[EstWRC]

M-sport tested on tarmac a little over month ago, in wales 3 weeks ago and in sweden whole last week and so i dont get whats the problem here and they have done most of their testing on tarmac anyway.

[dimviii]

Sordo
https://youtu.be/C6d976kSxMQ

[dimviii]

Hanninen
https://youtu.be/pdMC0dd7kjw

[dimviii]

Sordo
https://youtu.be/NatzFeSge_Q

[rogef]

Watching the latest videos from all brands, it seems that they are all more balanced. Initially Citroën seemed to have a great advantage, now they are working hard and it looks like things are getting more balanced. What do you think?

[Andre Oliveira]

M-Sport start in advantage.

[stefanvv]

M-Sport start in advantage.

Now when I think about this Toyota equation at their beginning, infinity multiplied by 4 sounds better than divided by zero.

[Simmi]

Watching the latest videos from all brands, it seems that they are all more balanced. Initially Citroën seemed to have a great advantage, now they are working hard and it looks like things are getting more balanced. What do you think?

I think the stopwatch will tell us when the time comes. The thing we can't even begin to decipher from these videos is reliability. Very interested to see who got it right. It's my biggest fear for M-Sport.

[stefanvv]

It's my biggest fear for M-Sport.

why?

[rogef]

Excluding this small, great detail. (Ogier onboard) what do you think?

[rogef]

Yes, I also think reliability will be a big factor

[stefanvv]

Excluding this small, great detail. (Ogier onboard) what do you think?

Citroen could be winner if one and only Meeke is pushing the gaz and brake pedals.
Ogier has to do some work on settings Ford to be lighting fast.
Hyundais will probably have steering issues.
Toyota will have lot to catch up.

my 2 cents.

[EstWRC]

Hanninen https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IGfFwJ1qWNQ

[A FONDO]

Sordo Mix https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dlDXO9getSA (by Tony Bailet)

[Fast Eddie WRC]

The thing we can't even begin to decipher from these videos is reliability. Very interested to see who got it right. It's my biggest fear for M-Sport.

No reason to doubt M-Sport more than any of the other teams. Its only VW that had an advantage in this respect in the last 4 years and they are no more.
And even when the VW's had an issue it was usually Mr Ogier who still managed it the best...

[GravelBen]

I think the stopwatch will tell us when the time comes.

Very true.

I guess its also fun to watch videos and make wild speculations though. :sailor:

[Toyoda]

Steering under/oversteer still looks average in the i20 videos , hopefully just conditions or Sodo

[bassist]

I think 5-4-3-2-1-GO Will give us all the answers very soon!

[rogef]

WRC 2017 EXTRÊME TEST DAY IN THE NIGHT TOYOTA

Credits: EXTREME INEAMM

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M0NLbrhZzoY

[Doon]

The Hyundai doesn't move around much, therefore doesn't look all that quick; however, it probably means the complete opposite.

Speed is all about perception in these videos. In a direct comparison with a 2016 car, the 2017 car appears slower to me because they are more stable. They are louder than the 2016 cars which help to give a sense of speed, but I'm still convinced that they are less exciting to watch.

[A FONDO]

In a direct comparison with a 2016 car, the 2017 car appears slower to me because they are more stable.

Say no more.

https://i.stack.imgur.com/jiFfM.jpg

[Fast Eddie WRC]

It's hard to judge a car speed in isolation. You need to see several cars over the same piece of road for a good comparison. All of the 2017 look quicker than 2016 to me, but which is quickest we'll have to wait and see..

[liposh]

At first I thought new WRC17 cars will be too much stable and boring in comparision with Gr. B cars, but watching these videos here I am somehow very satisfied and let´s say charmed. The cars are pure hi-tec and I just like it. The way it accelerates from slow corner or goes thru fast turn...my mind is blowing up. ;)

[Rally Power]

I guess its also fun to watch videos and make wild speculations though. :sailor:

Yep, loosing fun for being afraid to look childish is a sad way of getting older…my random bet on ’17 cars: 1. C3; 2. Fiesta; 3. i20; 4. Yaris.

And my 'educated guess' about ’17 cars gain of speed over the current WRC’s: 1,5s/km.

[Rally Power]

In a direct comparison with a 2016 car, the 2017 car appears slower to me because they are more stable. They are louder than the 2016 cars which help to give a sense of speed, but I'm still convinced that they are less exciting to watch.

You’ve got to use the ;) icon Doon, otherwise we’ll think you’re talking seriously…

[Doon]

You’ve got to use the ;) icon Doon, otherwise we’ll think you’re talking seriously…

I am being serious. They don't appear to be affected by the conditions of the road, undulations etc and seem to have far more grip. I'm not doubting that they will be faster, they just don't appear to be on such a knife edge as the 2016 car.

[Doon]

Say no more.

https://i.stack.imgur.com/jiFfM.jpg
Why? Please enlighten me as to why you had to waste a post trying to belittle me with a picture from a child's film?

[macebig]

He is right.17 cars have larger tyres,better aero,are wider and longer than the 16 ones.Possibly suspension work has improved also.They absolutely must be more stable and less twitchy than the previous gen.

[Rally Power]

He is right.17 cars have larger tyres,better aero,are wider and longer than the 16 ones.Possibly suspension work has improved also.They absolutely must be more stable and less twitchy than the previous gen.

With the huge extra power 36mm restrictor will give them, they'll go sideways no matter what. Btw, how larger tyres will be?

[Doon]

With the huge extra power 36mm restrictor will give them, they'll go sideways no matter what. Btw, how larger tyres will be?

Power does not necessarily make cars more sideways, especially when they have active diffs which can be adjusted to keep the car as straight/fast as possible.

[Mirek]

He is right.17 cars have larger tyres,better aero,are wider and longer than the 16 ones.Possibly suspension work has improved also.They absolutely must be more stable and less twitchy than the previous gen.

Larger tyres? Have I missed something?


With the huge extra power 36mm restrictor will give them, they'll go sideways no matter what. Btw, how larger tyres will be?

Huge? What is huge about 400 Hp? The torque is unchanged compared to 2016 cars (still way less than 2009 cars), there is active center diff, larger track, much more effective aero. The main reason why the new cars must go less sideways is that they don't suffer from natural understeering like 2016 cars do (thanks to no center diff), also the aerodynamic downforce greatly improves cornering speed, ie. reduces the need for power slide in corner.


And my 'educated guess' about ’17 cars gain of speed over the current WRC’s: 1,5s/km.

That's way too much.

[electroliquid]

And my 'educated guess' about ’17 cars gain of speed over the current WRC’s: 1,5s/km.

It should be less than WRC16 vs. R5

[Rally Power]

Huge? What is huge about 400 Hp? The torque is unchanged compared to 2016 cars, there is active center diff, larger track, much more effective aero. The main reason why the new cars must go less sideways is that they don't suffer from natural understeering like 2016 cars do (thanks to no center diff), also the aerodynamic downforce greatly improves cornering speed, ie. reduces the need for power slide in corner.

You've been saying that since day 1, still the testing (videos+drivers remarks) have proved otherwise.

[dimviii]

Hanninen 19 December
https://youtu.be/pj_WGANt49c

Hanninen 20 December
https://youtu.be/Bewf21IjaJU

[jiipee64]

Toyota looks pretty fast live...

[J_n_z]

Huge? What is huge about 400 Hp? The torque is unchanged compared to 2016 cars (still way less than 2009 cars), ...


I can't understand talking about torque and power separately. Torque on crankshaft is pointless as it can be compensated with higher revolution speed to generate certain power (my bike has cca 145 Nm torque at 30rpm). In the end, power is the thing, that moves things around.

With bigger restrictor you can have more air ie. can burn more fuel ie. more power. If it is done with less revs and bigger volume/rev. or more revs and smaller volume/rev. it is not that important.

Engune ability to pull from low revs... is very relative to what low revs are. Much more important is range of useable revs. to achieve required speed with limited number of gaears... But with modern fast shifting gearboxes, shifting while sliding in a corner, it can be compensated ass well.

[dimviii]

Michelin video with c3 tests
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PjaFP3qGKDs&feature=youtu.be&a

[Mirek]

I can't understand talking about torque and power separately. Torque on crankshaft is pointless as it can be compensated with higher revolution speed to generate certain power (my bike has cca 145 Nm torque at 30rpm). In the end, power is the thing, that moves things around.

With bigger restrictor you can have more air ie. can burn more fuel ie. more power. If it is done with less revs and bigger volume/rev. or more revs and smaller volume/rev. it is not that important.

Engune ability to pull from low revs... is very relative to what low revs are. Much more important is range of useable revs. to achieve required speed with limited number of gaears... But with modern fast shifting gearboxes, shifting while sliding in a corner, it can be compensated ass well.

Torque can't be compenstated by higher revolution speed because of air restrictor, boost limitation, rpm limitation and fixed gear ratios. The general shape of the power curve is basically given by the rules. We are not here in the ideal world where You can do whatever You want.

Also don't forget that higher rpm mean higher friction losses in the engine. The losses (and useless heat) grow exponentially with the rpm therefore it is vital to keep rpm as low as possible to have better efficiency (hence the torque importance again). The amount of air is limited by the restrictor after all and therefore all what You burn for generating friction is simply lost.

The ability to pull from lower rpm is also very important because You have plenty of hairpins where You accelerate from near zero speed. With fixed gear ratios the engine also rarely operates at the ideal peak power rpm therefore the torque is important. This could be very nicely illustrated on S2000 gear ratios which were very different for each car based mainly on the engine torque characteristics and the stages for which they were used. For example Škoda was able to use longer gearbox (higher top speed) than others because it had better torque characteristics and therefore could have larger steps between the gears.

In the end the maximum power of all cars is similar as it is achieved with same restrictor in very similar rpm but the difference comes from the torque. The old 2.0 WRC cars with very high boost had plenty of torque, way more than current WRC cars. They had so much torque that they could theoretically run effectively with only 4-speed gearboxes without loosing top speed. Teams kept using 5-6-speed gearboxes only for the reliability (to have smaller shocks when shifting). 2017 WRC have more power but the torque is relatively low therefore they don't have this luxury of very large power bent.

[dimviii]

Latvala day3
https://youtu.be/xow5rtFEsOE

[Mirek]

You've been saying that since day 1, still the testing (videos+drivers remarks) have proved otherwise.

Has it? I don't see that. I can see big difference in cornering speed but not more sliding. From Monte Carlo testing the by far most sideways-style video was the one of Tidemand with R5...

[Lundefaret]

Torque can't be compenstated by higher revolution speed because of air restrictor, boost limitation, rpm limitation and fixed gear ratios. The general shape of the power curve is basically given by the rules. We are not here in the ideal world where You can do whatever You want.

Also don't forget that higher rpm mean higher friction losses in the engine. The losses (and useless heat) grow exponentially with the rpm therefore it is vital to keep rpm as low as possible to have better efficiency (hence the torque importance again). The amount of air is limited by the restrictor after all and therefore all what You burn for generating friction is simply lost.

The ability to pull from lower rpm is also very important because You have plenty of hairpins where You accelerate from near zero speed. With fixed gear ratios the engine also rarely operates at the ideal peak power rpm therefore the torque is important. This could be very nicely illustrated on S2000 gear ratios which were very different for each car based mainly on the engine torque characteristics and the stages for which they were used. For example Škoda was able to use longer gearbox (higher top speed) than others because it had better torque characteristics and therefore could have larger steps between the gears.

In the end the maximum power of all cars is similar as it is achieved with same restrictor in very similar rpm but the difference comes from the torque. The old 2.0 WRC cars with very high boost had plenty of torque, way more than current WRC cars. They had so much torque that they could theoretically run effectively with only 4-speed gearboxes without loosing top speed. Teams kept using 5-6-speed gearboxes only for the reliability (to have smaller shocks when shifting). 2017 WRC have more power but the torque is relatively low therefore they don't have this luxury of very large power bent.

Very good explanation, but I disagree with you on one thing, and thats regarding the number of ratios.

Theoretically - yes, the "wide" power band of the 2.0 WRC cars would allow for fewer ratios.
The thinking behind this was that they would change gear more seldom (gaining time), and that a lower number of ratios would decrease number of parts, and therefore number of parts that brake.

When Porsche went serious about using turbochargers in racing the 930 turbo was one of the first cars. On this car (even on the road model) they used only four ratios so they could make each gear strong enough to handle the torque and power.

But we know how the story went. The Peugeot-drivers struggled to find the right ratio, and was caught in either a gear to low, or a gear to high. This resulted in them not having a decrese in number of gear changes on a stage/on a rally, but a big increase.
I think it was as bad a 25% increase, or something in that region.
I was lucky enough to test a Citroën Xsara WRC (something I will bring into each discussion when I have the opertunity, hehe) and found the power band to be very much like a turbo diesel. Actually a lot like a VW pumpe duse Yes it had a lot of torque, but it definetly had a peak, which in reality was quite a narrow power band (as all highly tuned engines tend to have in some form or another.)

So your theory in regards to smaller shocks pr shifting isnt totally alligned with turbo/gearbox-history.
This is because a gear box has a certain physical size, and if you cram a lot of gears in there, the gears them selves will be smaller, thus more fragile.
With Porsche at Le Mans it was not that big a deal to have only four gears, because even tough the engine had a very strong ketchup effect/turbo lag, and that you went in and out of boost, the power advantage was so huge that you made up for it anyway. In rallying it was a different story.

But regarding the torque, the teams with a good torque curve (in combination with good top end power) will off cource have an advantage. And sensitive drivers - like Ogier - will know how to take advantage of that.

[Mirek]

Thanks for Your insight. Very interesting but I am not fully convinced :) I admit I don't know the power curve of Xsara but as far as I know Citroën used 6-speed gearbox for late Xsaras and C4 only becaue it was very realiable.

I have seen dyno charts of other cars and some really had very large power bent. I have in front of me very old chart from Fabia WRC 04 (the initial very bad engine with Bosch electronics) and the peak power is near constant in the range 4200-5700 rpm for one of the worst engines in the WRC history with roughly 200 Nm of torque less than the competitors. If I can pick also R5 engine as an example I know that Fiesta R5 has nearly flat power curve all the way from 4500 rpm to the rpm limiter at 7500 rpm.

I tend to disagree about the gearbox design. I don't think that it's a good idea to have more robust gears to cope with the shocks. It's rotating masses whose inertia shall be kept as small as possible to save power.

Anyway I'm no gearbox designer therefore what I write may be a bullshit after all.

[AMSS]

Latvala day3
https://youtu.be/xow5rtFEsOE

I have been among the criticals regarding this project but I have to admit it's looking better and better all the time. Still something strange in front handling and suspension but at least now they are at a point they're not visibly alot slower than others(in my opinion at least) and this would be a good thing!

[macebig]

Thanks for Your insight. Very interesting but I am not fully convinced :) I admit I don't know the power curve of Xsara but as far as I know Citroën used 6-speed gearbox for late Xsaras and C4 only becaue it was very realiable.

I have seen dyno charts of other cars and some really had very large power bent. I have in front of me very old chart from Fabia WRC 04 (the initial very bad engine with Bosch electronics) and the peak power is near constant in the range 4200-5700 rpm for one of the worst engines in the WRC history with roughly 200 Nm of torque less than the competitors. If I can pick also R5 engine as an example I know that Fiesta R5 has nearly flat power curve all the way from 4500 rpm to the rpm limiter at 7500 rpm.

I tend to disagree about the gearbox design. I don't think that it's a good idea to have more robust gears to cope with the shocks. It's rotating masses whose inertia shall be kept as small as possible to save power.

Anyway I'm no gearbox designer therefore what I write may be a bullshit after all.

4 speed in a 2.0 liter WRC?Gronholm has some words to say about that...And they are mostly 4 lettered...

[seb_sh]

4 speed in a 2.0 liter WRC?Gronholm has some words to say about that...And they are mostly 4 lettered...

he did fine with 3 gears on that one stage... :P

[br21]

With low number of gears gearboxes, or gearboxes with long gears important problem is that it's not easy to choose proper gear in some conditions plus also main problem is downshifting - it's easy to lock the wheels (or at least make the car unstable), and it affects your driving, confidence and also adds additional shock for drivetrain (which can make it got damaged easier). In case of R5 you can see it a little bit in case of Fabia, where you have long gears and on twisty stages it's not that easy to choose proper gear, I mean if you're not in ideal gear then you feel you loose a lot, it's different in short ratio boxes, when you're not in ideal gear you feel if for split second and then it goes OK again. And while downshifting you need to keep that in mind also.

[Lundefaret]

Thanks for Your insight. Very interesting but I am not fully convinced :) I admit I don't know the power curve of Xsara but as far as I know Citroën used 6-speed gearbox for late Xsaras and C4 only becaue it was very realiable.

I have seen dyno charts of other cars and some really had very large power bent. I have in front of me very old chart from Fabia WRC 04 (the initial very bad engine with Bosch electronics) and the peak power is near constant in the range 4200-5700 rpm for one of the worst engines in the WRC history with roughly 200 Nm of torque less than the competitors. If I can pick also R5 engine as an example I know that Fiesta R5 has nearly flat power curve all the way from 4500 rpm to the rpm limiter at 7500 rpm.

I tend to disagree about the gearbox design. I don't think that it's a good idea to have more robust gears to cope with the shocks. It's rotating masses whose inertia shall be kept as small as possible to save power.

Anyway I'm no gearbox designer therefore what I write may be a bullshit after all.

Its off cource important to have rotating inertia low to keep power loss at minimum, but I only wrote about the theory behind "bigger and stronger gears" if you like.

Anyway, Peugeots plan failed, that we can agree on.

The "problem" for designers/engineers in rallying, is that it is so many parameter, and that a "lap" will never be perfect, because the drivers will always have some variation in grip etc.
So as you say, with to few ratios you will "always" be to high or to low.

And a thing that was very important with that - as many times - what works on the drawing board/on the computer, might not always work in real life - especially in rallying.

We have seen this many times.

- Peugeot: 4 gear gearbox is one example.
- Peugeot: engineer made theoretically perfect mapping of active diff in 2004 the same. I remeber in NZ, the car violently transferring power back/forth mid corner. I was amazed by how Grönholm could keep that car on the road whit that happening. (He was prob robbed of a title or two by that car)
- Subaru/Prodrive: 2005-onwards hiring racing engineers. Lots of things happened. Wings fell of because mountings was too light. Engine drowned in water crossing in Argentina. Etc etc.

But "problem" with gearboxes mostly went away when they went from human shifted dog boxes, to computer controlled sequential ones. So this is one time when a more expensive parts made the running cost lower.
Any 10 year old can change gear in a modern WRC car, they wouldnt fare quite so well in a car with a "manual" dog box. :)

[Mirek]

I wonder which of these new cars with their aerodynamic front ends is going to eat snow the best. We have seen already in the Monte testing of M-Sport that there might be issues with overheating. Could be a similar story like that one with drowned Subaru engines (rather in Sweden).

[Lundefaret]

I wonder which of these new cars with their aerodynamic front ends is going to eat snow the best. We have seen already in the Monte testing of M-Sport that there might be issues with overheating. Could be a similar story like that one with drowned Subaru engines (rather in Sweden).

That is a very valid question!

Not only in Monte, but also in Sweden.

Ford definetly have potential to eat som snow/clog up the air intake.
Longer/bigger splitter, together with canards, will also catch snow on the snow banks in Sweden.
Will be very interesting to follow.


Another point on aerodynamics:
Citroën C3 seams to have clearly the biggest frontal area (see it on the "small" fender flarings). Will be intersting to see if this potentially higher drag/or sacrifice in downforce will be noticable?

[EstWRC]

Mikkelsen https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vK2y3ffSuqM

[Mirek]

Different sound of the Fabia, anyone?

By the way from the background talk it seems that Mikkelsen went off twice during the test but the talk is cut so I am not totally sure that it was said about him. For sure there is the broken traffic sign visible.

Plus there is some rather funny background comment from some locals: "What's his name? - Mikkelsen, some Norwegian" :)

[pantealex]

Very true.

I guess its also fun to watch videos and make wild speculations though. :sailor:

My bets (before Monte or any other meeting together)
Monte 1.Meeke, Citroen
Sweden 1.Ogier, Ford
Mexico 1.Neuville, Hyundai
Corsica 1.not Toyota, probably Ogier or Meeke

Champion Ogier
Team Champion Hyundai

[dimviii]

Different sound of the Fabia, anyone?

By the way from the background talk it seems that Mikkelsen went off twice during the test but the talk is cut so I am not totally sure that it was said about him. For sure there is the broken traffic sign visible.
:)

yeap seems like that. About noise didn't notice something.

[SubaruNorway]

Different sound of the Fabia, anyone?

By the way from the background talk it seems that Mikkelsen went off twice during the test but the talk is cut so I am not totally sure that it was said about him. For sure there is the broken traffic sign visible.

Plus there is some rather funny background comment from some locals: "What's his name? - Mikkelsen, some Norwegian" :)

Much louder finally!

[seb_sh]

Another point on aerodynamics:
Citroën C3 seams to have clearly the biggest frontal area (see it on the "small" fender flarings). Will be intersting to see if this potentially higher drag/or sacrifice in downforce will be noticable?

This is a more complex subject as far as I know. Look at LMP1 cars in recent times, there was a shift to more vertical front edges while also trying to control how air moves through and around the car. It's true this was also cause by regulations (the open slits on top or on the side of the wheel well) but it showed that having a more "blunt" attack angle is not necessarily worse, especially if you can control how the air moves around or over the surfaces. The dive planes (the small wings on the front bumper) play a big role here as well.

Overall I guess it's more about the shape of the whole package and low pressure areas behind the car, not just surface area.

There is a lot of analysis on this subject on http://mulsannescorner.com/ website and facebook group.

[Toyoda]

Very good explanation, but I disagree with you on one thing, and thats regarding the number of ratios.

Theoretically - yes, the "wide" power band of the 2.0 WRC cars would allow for fewer ratios.
The thinking behind this was that they would change gear more seldom (gaining time), and that a lower number of ratios would decrease number of parts, and therefore number of parts that brake.

When Porsche went serious about using turbochargers in racing the 930 turbo was one of the first cars. On this car (even on the road model) they used only four ratios so they could make each gear strong enough to handle the torque and power.

But we know how the story went. The Peugeot-drivers struggled to find the right ratio, and was caught in either a gear to low, or a gear to high. This resulted in them not having a decrese in number of gear changes on a stage/on a rally, but a big increase.
I think it was as bad a 25% increase, or something in that region.
I was lucky enough to test a Citroën Xsara WRC (something I will bring into each discussion when I have the opertunity, hehe) and found the power band to be very much like a turbo diesel. Actually a lot like a VW pumpe duse Yes it had a lot of torque, but it definetly had a peak, which in reality was quite a narrow power band (as all highly tuned engines tend to have in some form or another.)

So your theory in regards to smaller shocks pr shifting isnt totally alligned with turbo/gearbox-history.
This is because a gear box has a certain physical size, and if you cram a lot of gears in there, the gears them selves will be smaller, thus more fragile.
With Porsche at Le Mans it was not that big a deal to have only four gears, because even tough the engine had a very strong ketchup effect/turbo lag, and that you went in and out of boost, the power advantage was so huge that you made up for it anyway. In rallying it was a different story.

But regarding the torque, the teams with a good torque curve (in combination with good top end power) will off cource have an advantage. And sensitive drivers - like Ogier - will know how to take advantage of that.

Ratio wise it seems the i20 has a very short change between 2&3 or 1&2, as Sordo boosts straight on the rev limiter out of the hair pin corners, seems bang, instant whack of power in the videos.

[RS]

Different sound of the Fabia, anyone?


It perhaps sounds a bit louder and raspier but it could just be the atmospheric conditions.

Unless you know they've changed the exhaust system?

[J_n_z]

Torque can't be compenstated by higher revolution speed because of air restrictor, boost limitation, rpm limitation and fixed gear ratios. The general shape of the power curve is basically given by the rules. We are not here in the ideal world where You can do whatever You want.
.
.
.


You miss my point, or (more likely) my english is the problem...

I wanted to comment your thought, that low torque is the thing that prevents car going sideways... tires slide.
But it is not, power is the thing that makes tires slide, because at same wheel rev. speed and increased power the torque on the wheel is bigger ie. more force to transfer to the ground...

I agree with your writing, but things like piston friction loses, torque curve shape, driveability of engine and transmition... all are caracteristics of power genereting and power transfer, that needs to be optimised as you said.

Still power is the thing that moves things and torque is just a component of it.

[Mirek]

You are right with that, sorry for misunderstanding.

Still while what You say it's true it doesn't mean that the car will go sideways because of the peak power. I take a slighly extreme example of S2000 car with atmospheric engine. They had enouh power for sliding at the top rpm. Sliding-wise S2000 cars had a typical behavior - nearly no drifting in lower speeds but sometimes violent slides at the exits of the corners even in very high speeds (for example when some dirt was present). In the end this fraction of a second long power slides can't by called driving sideways (my opinion) even though it was spectacular in the fast sections.

The new WRC are slightly similar even though they have double the torque to S2000. I can see similar pattern especially with the i20 on the videos but only in low speeds (presumably because S2000 has very low aerodynamic downforce). Very calm and clean with just a short powerslide at the peak power (Monte Carlo sessions).

Anyway for me the main reason why not to drift through the hairpins and sharp corners is the center active differential. The 16 cars with no center diff suffered from massive natural understeering and the drivers had to throw them around in drifts to turn. Sometimes it went to near ridiculously spectacular back-first driving. I remember very well the first impressions from Sweden 2011 and the discussion here on the forum.

[EstWRC]

Neuville https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HJaGCeytqk8
Sordo https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pW1n4fTeWP4&feature=youtu.be&a

[A FONDO]

Anyway for me the main reason why not to drift through the hairpins and sharp corners is the center active differential. The 16 cars with no center diff suffered from massive natural understeering and the drivers had to throw them around in drifts to turn. Sometimes it went to near ridiculously spectacular back-first driving. I remember very well the first impressions from Sweden 2011 and the discussion here on the forum.

Here it is, at 0:45, 1:17 etc. you could never do that with 2011-2016 cars. I was so devastated in 2011 watching their lines. Finally we retrned to what the top rally category should be.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kgyIdtO2Ass (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kgyIdtO2Ass)

[Rally Power]

Has it? I don't see that. I can see big difference in cornering speed but not more sliding. From Monte Carlo testing the by far most sideways-style video was the one of Tidemand with R5...

Even on tarmac '17 cars will go more sideways than current ones. In case you've miss them, he're some nice samples of the big slides ahead of us!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dMJhwbQCy78
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lAeAe3yg6-k
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TqItOuzIElE
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lkVFd9RQnO0

[Mirek]

Slowson gave a good example with the hairpin @ 1:16 of his video link. This is what is hardly possible with 2016 car. Similar situation with Citroën here at 0:45: https://youtu.be/RumejYWCldc?t=45

By the way I have never said that 2017 can't go more sideways. Of course they can but why? The point is that while 2016 cars had to go sideways in certain situations the 2017 cars don't need so. That's the sole reason of active center diff and new aero package existence and I really don't see why do You argue about that.

[dimviii]

Latvala
https://youtu.be/BPJ_RXiSzhU

[J_n_z]

Toyota diff mapping evolution is interesting to me (or maybe I see to much test videos).

First little understeer:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j_9VsvaUczA

After few days some fast oversteer (as Mirek mentioned)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bl_szvXqNTw

Than some balanced handling but little corrections was still needed
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qd6UsRY5bZ8

And finally good stable balancend (almost 2009 like) handling
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bewf21IjaJU

[Rallyper]

I think you´ve seen too much test vids.

How on earth can you tell from these different conditions? We can see surfaces is not same on the vids, and also two drivers, so for me I wouldn´t make any conclusions whatsoever on differences on handling of the car. Unless I was at sight, talking to the drivers or was expert on suspension working for the team etz.

For sure we can figure out they have tested settings. But making conclusions out of it, no!

That´s my opinion. Don´t take it hard J_n_z ...

[dimviii]

Michelin video with Latvala

https://youtu.be/Gpyy1SpxlrU

[Lundefaret]

This is a more complex subject as far as I know. Look at LMP1 cars in recent times, there was a shift to more vertical front edges while also trying to control how air moves through and around the car. It's true this was also cause by regulations (the open slits on top or on the side of the wheel well) but it showed that having a more "blunt" attack angle is not necessarily worse, especially if you can control how the air moves around or over the surfaces. The dive planes (the small wings on the front bumper) play a big role here as well.

Overall I guess it's more about the shape of the whole package and low pressure areas behind the car, not just surface area.

There is a lot of analysis on this subject on http://mulsannescorner.com/ website and facebook group.

Verticality has nothing to do with frontal area, that is, as you say your selves, in an effort to direct air flow.
Moder LMP1 cars have as small a frontal area as the rules will allow.
If you ask Adrian Newey this is his first objective when designing a F1 car.
For a rally car, a lot of the parameters are given, because you start with a production car body, and you have an 1875mm width limit.
So, the smaller frontal area the road car body has, the less drag you can achieve (also a bit dependant on general body shape), and the more liberties you can take to design the aerodynamic "helpers."
So if you look at the Toyota it is quite a narrow car, you can see this on the width of the fender "boxes." You also see this on the Polo.
Fiesta seems a little bit wider, so also the i20, and the C3 the widest.

In regards to the C3 I think they have worked a lot on drag, on top of downforce, because they started with a bigger frontal area. And i suspect this is why they went in the direction of "normal" fender flares, vs the boxes.
They have also used a lot of time perfecting the air flow around and in the fender flares. They have "blown" the fender openings, very visual in the front with air coming in from behind the head lights.

In regards to the Toyota, they have gone max out towards downforce.
Ford and Hyundai is in the direction of the Toyota.

Will be very interesting if it will be a real performance difference. If it is any, this will be most evident in medium to long corners, in medium to high speed (100-200 kph), with an increasing factor depending on how straight you can drive the car.

[seb_sh]

Verticality has nothing to do with frontal area, that is, as you say your selves, in an effort to direct air flow.
Moder LMP1 cars have as small a frontal area as the rules will allow.
If you ask Adrian Newey this is his first objective when designing a F1 car.
For a rally car, a lot of the parameters are given, because you start with a production car body, and you have an 1875mm width limit.
So, the smaller frontal area the road car body has, the less drag you can achieve (also a bit dependant on general body shape), and the more liberties you can take to design the aerodynamic "helpers."
So if you look at the Toyota it is quite a narrow car, you can see this on the width of the fender "boxes." You also see this on the Polo.
Fiesta seems a little bit wider, so also the i20, and the C3 the widest.

In regards to the C3 I think they have worked a lot on drag, on top of downforce, because they started with a bigger frontal area. And i suspect this is why they went in the direction of "normal" fender flares, vs the boxes.
They have also used a lot of time perfecting the air flow around and in the fender flares. They have "blown" the fender openings, very visual in the front with air coming in from behind the head lights.

In regards to the Toyota, they have gone max out towards downforce.
Ford and Hyundai is in the direction of the Toyota.

Will be very interesting if it will be a real performance difference. If it is any, this will be most evident in medium to long corners, in medium to high speed (100-200 kph), with an increasing factor depending on how straight you can drive the car.

You are right of course about frontal area. If a car needs to punch a bigger hole through the air it will have more drag. I was just pointing out that it's not the only factor. You also mention some interesting stuff, I didn't study the aero bits as closely but one thing that I also noticed is that Toyota has probably the most aggressive aero package, I mean they are trying to get the most downforce, especially from the underbody and diffuser. After that come Hyundai and Ford and seem to have about equal amount of aero elements then Citroen with slightly less aggressive parts. But like I said I'm no expert and haven't looked at this in detail. Oh and how about the VW that was also not so aggressive, I guess it would be at about Citroen level, no?

[J_n_z]

C3 production car is 1470 mm high 40 mm lower than Yaris... wheel area width is equal, so I can imagine, that C3 cross section is actually relatively small.

[Lundefaret]

C3 production car is 1470 mm high 40 mm lower than Yaris... wheel area width is equal, so I can imagine, that C3 cross section is actually relatively small.

C3 2017
Height: 1470 mm
Width: 1745mm
Wheel arch width: 65 mm pr side

Yaris (2016, I think the 2017 will be quite similar?)
Height: 1510 mm
Width: 1695 mm
Wheel arch width: 90 mm pr side (the difference is a bit bigger because the Citroën is squarer in its shape)

[dimviii]

plenty photos from c3 wrc,some suspension photos too
http://elevageduchateau.chez-alice.fr/essais_C3_WRC_15dec2016/#

http://elevageduchateau.chez-alice.fr/essais_C3_WRC_14dec2016/

[Fast Eddie WRC]

Some interesting stuff here but maybe it should be in the Technical Analysis thread ... ;)

[dimviii]

Hanninen
http://elevageduchateau.chez-alice.fr/essais_yaris_chorges_19122016/#

[Extremrallye]

4 years of VW rush : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZnpfYEN3LjE
Merry christmas.

[Fast Eddie WRC]

Docu the other day on Elfyn Evans Season Review showed him doing plenty of testing of the new 2017 Fiesta.

He must be getting a drive with one at some point with MSport/DMack...

[EstWRC]

doesnt mean a thing if you have a contract with Wilson, Camilli has also done a lot of testing with the new car but now we know that he wont even drive with it.

[Fast Eddie WRC]

doesnt mean a thing if you have a contract with Wilson, Camilli has also done a lot of testing with the new car but now we know that he wont even drive with it.

Looks like it does mean something... Evans is on the seeded Monte start list. :)

[EstWRC]

Abarth test https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zAQ95NNk5MA

[A FONDO]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A8ZCoFet4iw Hyundai two weeks ago under a tiny snowfall

ps. and one mixed clip uploaded two days ago :confused: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mWSfPBk2pXg

[OnlyRally]

Abarth test https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zAQ95NNk5MA

It is a mazda miata :)


Skickat från min iPhone med Tapatalk

[Andre Oliveira]

Meeke Sweden: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yqWDoh4LkKw

[dimviii]

Βreen
https://youtu.be/CMUGzq4fnYo

[SubaruNorway]

Βreen
https://youtu.be/CMUGzq4fnYo
Now if they only had some proper narrow tyres to use all that power!

[Andre Oliveira]

https://www.facebook.com/erik.phersson

https://scontent-mxp1-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/15894935_10211513051806973_7191820612603168666_n.j pg?oh=37909c21fc50aa79d6d24634d73ad3bf&oe=58D9A56D
https://scontent-mxp1-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/15894941_10211513059887175_4692721220342440487_n.j pg?oh=08db81b50f45b66bfe78d8786fbd7a3f&oe=58E48ED9
https://scontent-mxp1-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/15894423_10211513050246934_1163895529388869550_n.j pg?oh=5a0ce6f58fbbb133cba383dcf675be82&oe=58E51F50

[Andre Oliveira]

Ogier

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/C1t9ojkWQAAX38n?format=jpg&name=large

Clip video: https://www.facebook.com/WorldRally.Is.Free/videos/1298764646861033/

[EstWRC]

engine sounding different? maybe because of the video quality

[EstWRC]

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/C1ug4wDWEAAWYzn.jpg

[Duvel]

Maybe silly question, but why do the test cars never have the sponsors on it?

[A FONDO]

Because sponsors are stupid. BTW Citroen were testing with Red Bull some years ago.

[Andre Oliveira]

Pics by Jo Lillini

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/C1uy-BpXcAIWp9h?format=jpg&name=large
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/C1uy-BqW8AAsWbU?format=jpg&name=large

[tomhlord]

Maybe silly question, but why do the test cars never have the sponsors on it?

One test car to share across the 3 different drivers, who carry different event liveries, maybe?

Not sure, it's an open goal for sponsors in my eyes, they are missing exposure from the images and video clips.

[AL14]

Maybe silly question, but why do the test cars never have the sponsors on it?

I guess it's because sponsors don't pay for it. :)

[Andre Oliveira]

Latvala

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/C1vBfMEXUAEpCkK?format=jpg&name=large

[markpcym]

is this being put on Youtube as don't have facebook!?

[EstWRC]

is this being put on Youtube as don't have facebook!?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y4SsdEA94Jc&feature=youtu.be



https://pbs.twimg.com/media/C1vFeD7XUAAc3up.jpg

[Andre Oliveira]

https://youtu.be/qaxmnvwI3iI

[sete]

great sound - it reminds me a Escort Cosworth Gr.A isn't it?

[dimviii]

again this retarded thing with fast playing videos?

[A FONDO]

again this retarded thing with fast playing videos?

But still his behaviour with the car is amazing, what a mad man, never a boring test with him!

[A FONDO]

https://twitter.com/hugo_blancher/status/818474975984287744

https://twitter.com/jeromebourret/status/818468635496841216

[dimviii]

But still his behaviour with the car is amazing, what a mad man, never a boring test with him!

of course its amazing,but they destroy it with this fast playing.



Lefebvre
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zubXm0XYrE0

[dimviii]

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/C1wCWknXgAAviRG.jpg
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/C1wCVSXW8AAdPkv.jpg
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/C1wCV7CXgAAd3Wx.jpg

[Andre Oliveira]

https://www.facebook.com/julienpixelrallye/

https://scontent-mxp1-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/15894235_739577402872071_3976089132672120132_n.jpg ?oh=f29b6b97a4139fba23582f606c9bc1c1&oe=58DC058B
https://scontent-mxp1-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/15965802_739577426205402_7129573694433385386_n.jpg ?oh=59af4b695fc68d8f0325fc700fb73c81&oe=58DA42BB
https://scontent-mxp1-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/15873276_739577702872041_7476227940044476239_n.jpg ?oh=25f6729ef43d43a9d0f9fba41f7b0f1c&oe=58E25D2F

[Andre Oliveira]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KJtTOBvLlTk

[er88]

So how come the car sounds a lot different to a few weeks ago?

Sent from my SM-G920F using Tapatalk

[EstWRC]

Ogier https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eYQKni-_pj4&feature=youtu.be

[dimviii]

So how come the car sounds a lot different to a few weeks ago?

Sent from my SM-G920F using Tapatalk

sounds change with faster playing video

[dimviii]

Latvala today
https://youtu.be/1jjwW_afp_M

https://youtu.be/fFTM7GhNbk0

[A FONDO]

I donwloaded the clip and played it with VLC. Set the speed at 0,88 or 0,92 and it seems perfect. At 0,75 or 0,82 is obviously slow. So not a big difference but still annoying. Wonder if it's a new encoding algoritm in youtube. Google are famous with destroying good stuff when it just works fine and reliable.

[EstWRC]

Doesn't look much faster to me. Only in the beginning of the video, rest of the video seems normal. You guys haven't got used to the new fast cars :p

[A FONDO]

and the new faster dust dispersion, and faster leaves spill....

[Rallyper]

I donwloaded the clip and played it with VLC. Set the speed at 0,88 or 0,92 and it seems perfect. At 0,75 or 0,82 is obviously slow. So not a big difference but still annoying. Wonder if it's a new encoding algoritm in youtube. Google are famous with destroying good stuff when it just works fine and reliable.

You funny people. Don´t believe in speed shown. Must slow down so it suits your fantasy and wishes.

[stefanvv]

Everything is relative, including time. Enjoy wrc.

[dimviii]

and the new faster dust dispersion, and faster leaves spill....

yes ,also the faster bang-bang of als,as the sheamless gear changes.

[dimviii]

I donwloaded the clip and played it with VLC. Set the speed at 0,88 or 0,92 and it seems perfect. At 0,75 or 0,82 is obviously slow. So not a big difference but still annoying. Wonder if it's a new encoding algoritm in youtube. Google are famous with destroying good stuff when it just works fine and reliable.

its not nothing new that the videos play a bit faster,i have mention it some years back,but these days almost most of them playing faster.
and really I cant understand the reason.

[Andre Oliveira]

https://scontent-mxp1-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/15940617_10154862645083431_6111048928974296882_n.j pg?oh=e53438d9b19602ea74196140748abf28&oe=58DDC324
https://scontent-mxp1-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/15895106_10154862645073431_5350535303107050042_n.j pg?oh=05211b85535a519e87f1c15ffbaf02d5&oe=58DA8C53
https://scontent-mxp1-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/15871578_10154862645218431_4599688228994444491_n.j pg?oh=173f45b6b1f9d759f3371f3867509932&oe=58DE8747

[dimviii]

https://scontent-bru2-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t31.0-8/15937262_1391236650909715_6985990259369037050_o.jp g?oh=9028f3a759e6d0f60b9fa7cee45632c2&oe=59130E7E

[Andre Oliveira]

Pics by Eric Dobrowolsky

https://scontent-mxp1-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/15940428_1391237304242983_7995645428362719817_n.jp g?oh=2e5156ff1e2ff85de3705d643d34f035&oe=58DAB4F4
https://scontent-mxp1-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/15895103_1391238004242913_1950160800698148072_n.jp g?oh=acf7e049e1f49083a1e2504f8a2e5edd&oe=58DF7681
https://scontent-mxp1-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/15965991_1391242417575805_198076159183199919_n.jpg ?oh=13e9503a767041e6af93e155865c66c5&oe=58E6C49C

[Fast Eddie WRC]

Guys, enjoy the car speed on these test videos whether real or not.. that's the biggest change we have over last years...

The new cars dont look that different or spectacular to me now I'm used to them. And they look so solid with all the aero, with little sliding, that the new speed is the real change to enjoy.

[Andre Oliveira]

Ogier by Extreme Rallye: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Os4mzpBrNwQ

[RS]

The new cars dont look that different or spectacular to me now I'm used to them.

I think it's only the really fast sections where they look quicker, which I suppose makes sense as that is where the aero stuff will start to work and the extra peak power will show.

[cali]

Am I the only one who sees that the new cars are pulling away from corners with much more force.?

Sent from my ONEPLUS A3003 using Tapatalk

[Jasper]

Am I the only one who sees that the new cars are pulling away from corners with much more force.?

Sent from my ONEPLUS A3003 using Tapatalk

No

[EstWRC]

i have noticed it too cali

Ogier https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gQg4twegzhI

[Fast Eddie WRC]

New aero, diff and tyres seem to be keeping the extra power under control. Cars fast but no more exciting really.

[EstWRC]

Hanninen from Michelin https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YObK_cMJzEU&feature=youtu.be&a

[dimviii]

Latvala

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/C10BvvOWEAEGu8J.jpg


Ogier

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/C10E4LEXAAAcwIr.jpg

[dimviii]

Neuville

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/C1zbLyiW8AE0M0L.jpg
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/C1zbLzJXgAAbYo0.jpg

[dimviii]

http://forum-rallye.com/uploads/monthly_01_2017/post-131-0-32209300-1484044264.jpg

[dimviii]

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/C10zBRgXUAAmHEt.jpg

[A FONDO]

Ogier some crazy moments from aa26 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hYpiwYvJqFU

flatout under the snow https://twitter.com/stephanev6/status/818869182334898180

[Fast Eddie WRC]

Ogier today with an off...

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/C10_H06VIAA44K0.jpg:large

http://revistascratch.com/wrc/noticia/accidente-de-sebastien-ogier-en-los-test-de-montecarlo-36061?utm_source=dlvr.it&utm_medium=twitter

[Andre Oliveira]

Ogier, even after the issue: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zJvPrqdSJrI

[dimviii]

Neuville
https://youtu.be/YFARX89t628

[SubaruNorway]

Ogier some crazy moments from aa26 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hYpiwYvJqFU

flatout under the snow https://twitter.com/stephanev6/status/818869182334898180

Where are the crazy moments?

[Eli]

after watching the latest test videos, I must say, I can't wait 'till the arrival of next weekend & also I hope we will see much more night time stages...

[Andre Oliveira]

https://www.facebook.com/julienpixelrallye/?fref=ts

https://scontent-mxp1-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/15965224_740226346140510_3689556048413396480_n.jpg ?oh=4714f1078289a96c13dc30f18c2e7d21&oe=59220AE6
https://scontent-mxp1-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/15965298_740226309473847_1972191922023600989_n.jpg ?oh=6ac629c19418ece8301c0c369d3268f7&oe=58E6494C
https://scontent-mxp1-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/15965762_740226112807200_7338263796891340305_n.jpg ?oh=8c17a3d386eccb9fc4c7f59daf2d665c&oe=59140FF4

[dimviii]

till now c3 seems the best ready car.

[Fast Eddie WRC]

Ogier will hand the test car over to his team-mate Ott Tanak for the next two days before DMACKs replace Michelin tyres and Elfyn Evans gets a final day running on Friday.

[EstWRC]

Ogier https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p9gpwQ1qOa0
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-NJtXemYyNg
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I3kgOZP9Bpk

[FAlonso]

Ogier by SudRallye Day 2:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k6CrPMjXV0Q

[EstWRC]

Neuville https://youtu.be/Lq5Ipi0O5hY

[A FONDO]

Ogier Luminy13 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vToLaiun7ZU&t=0s

[rogef]

Little clip yaris today

https://twitter.com/Traxx_WiF/status/818862278481211392

[FAlonso]

Ogier Day2 by Extremrallye:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tiL1HR3x3sA

[Andre Oliveira]

What a sound!

[Andre Oliveira]

Fantastic! That looks fast: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x5trwk6_0No

[EstWRC]

i have never seen him working so much with the steering wheel like in those recent videos...of course mostly because it is so slippery out there.

[EstWRC]

Ogier https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Uyi7vgEw2VM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mKB44ZBkn9M

[GravelBen]

Fiesta looks quite loose in the rear end compared to the other cars, but I guess that could be partly due to the conditions in the last couple of tests. Makes it fun to watch anyway! :D

[EstWRC]

Little clips of Tänak and Sordo on this dudes account https://twitter.com/thibaultpascal/status/819221164560105472

[dimviii]

what are they talking?
https://www.dailymotion.com/video/x584f9t_d-ci-tv-les-essais-de-la-hyundai-i20-wrc-a-saint-andre-de-rosans-ce-mercredi_sport

[Andre Oliveira]

Ogier, for night lovers: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4L065mNEChw