Best F1 driver ever? [Archive]

markabilly

9th March 2008, 02:56

Man, that boy achieved so much in such a short space of time.

No time even to, ahem, 'choke' perhaps. ;)

That is quite coreect, scottie never choked although I think that team manager toast or tost or whatever tried to choke him, but scottie told him off as soon as he was safe in his motohome and surrounded by the press, and never choked

my hero :love:

wonder what he is doing now as waits for that call from ferrari to replace that ole rockoman or whoever.....opps I forgot that is my seat that rackoman is keeping warm for me---massa will have to go wherever Todt goes (to honda, perhaps somewhere else???)

Tazio

9th March 2008, 05:25

Man, that boy achieved so much in such a short space of time.

No time even to, ahem, 'choke' perhaps. ;) For the record I thought that "Red-Bull -Search-America-for-the-next-great-American-F1-Driver"
was a sham from the start! I’m also very cynical, and I think that about a lot of Corporate “Philanthropy”.
I think the kid gave it his best shot, and maybe deserved to hang around a little longer.
His team principal didn't, and that’s all that matters. The U.S. overwhelmingly is apathetic at best to F1.
I don't know a single person, have a friend, or an acquaintance that has even a "passing" interest in it.
(Which is also the reason "Motorsports F1 Forum" is the only forum of any topic I post on)
I've learned a lot from the knowledgeable F-1 aficionados on this forum.
It may not show from the style I demonstrate in my arguments. But that’s just the kind of Jerk I am.
America has had a lot of great athletes. The U.S. has had their share of "MONUMENTAL CHOKERS".
But, little old Scott,,,,,,,,,, not even a drop in the ocean!

Now let’s go out and have a good “clean” competitive season!

F-1…… “To you the laurel’s belong. Merrily live, and long”……..Edgar Allen Poe*

* From the poem "Israfel"

AAReagles

21st March 2008, 19:17

Not to sidetrack and start on a "Scott Speed" agenda, but I think he did about as well as what would be expected with a less fortunate team like Scuderia Toro Rosso.

In his favor I would also have to add that at he wasn't loaded with the experience and ego such as say... Micheal Andretti. His ship (F1 career) slowly leaked and sank, but at least it wasn't on fire, exploding and with sharks circling.

In regards to recent and perhaps future american F1 efforts, this statement says it all really.

The U.S. overwhelmingly is apathetic at best to F1.
I don't know a single person, have a friend, or an acquaintance that has even a "passing" interest in it.

With a lack of american involvement in F1, be it driver, manufacturer or a Grand Prix event itself, there won't be enough interest to maintain a decent focus on the sport, here in states. And so at the moment it is a NASCAR ruled nation, which hopefully like Rome, won't last forever. I just hope I'm around to watch it and Tony George (Indianapolis Motor Speedway owner) dissolve into history.

futuretiger9

23rd March 2008, 13:38

Best of the Formula 1 era - Fangio

Best of all time - Nuvolari

different you see ....

If pushed, I would agree that Fangio is the best of the Formula 1 era, although Clark, Senna and Moss run him close.

llgc8080

17th January 2009, 23:56

Best of the Formula 1 era - Fangio

Best of all time - Nuvolari

different you see ....

100% agree! :)

Garry Walker

18th January 2009, 23:13

How about poor Ralfie?

Ant Davidson is the best ever driver.

f1rocks

19th January 2009, 04:12

Ide is the best drive ever.. Mazzacane comes a close second. And Alex Young is third best ever.....

Noone else can even match these 3 superstars..

Valve Bounce

19th January 2009, 04:41

Ok I am sick of debates about the top 100 driveras of all time etc.
I thinks its time we established who most people feel the number one F1 driver ever is. Just post who you feel the number 1 driver is. Not the top three just number 1.

I reckon Fangio is number one

Your thoughts?

The guy who drives the Rubbish truck in Port Melbourne.

blito

26th January 2009, 22:01

Ukyo Katayama

:D

BTCC2

26th January 2009, 22:23

Michael Schumacher. No doubt about it in my opinion.

cynisca

17th March 2009, 19:44

In my opinion it's Ayrton Senna. He doesn't want only win Grand Prixs or championships, he also wanted destroy his opponents.

On second, very close, it's Michael Schumacher.

UltimateDanGTR

17th March 2009, 19:51

Yuji ide was a legend! :D

On a serious note, Ayrton Senna. without doubt. best racer and driver ever. ever. ever. ever. (you get the idea)

blito

18th March 2009, 19:30

no i dont
senna was a numpty
Ukya katayama 0wn3d all!

Rodriguez 917

20th March 2009, 13:38

This is a question that can never be answered. What was needed to be the best in the 50's is different from today. You can only answer in stages:

Fangio - Moss - Clark - Stewart - Lauda - Prost - Senna - Schumacher - Alonso

Mark in Oshawa

20th March 2009, 19:13

In the postwar era: Fangio, Moss, Clark, Stewart, Lauda I agree with. I add in Villeneuve for purely emotional reasons because if all that talent was harnessed in a positive manner, he would have been unbeatable. Senna and Prost I agree with also but I do think Senna was head and shoulders above Prost and I think he was above Schumacher as well.

I think where it is harder to discriminate from about 1980 on is the domination of the car in the determining of results. The top teams won sometimes in spite of the driver in this modern era. Schuy didn't win WDC's with Ferrari until they truly got their act together. Then he was unstoppable. Was it the car or the driver? The driver is a factor always but to be in the truly great, you have to win in cars that are NOT the dominate breed. Hence my emotionally skewed addition of Gilles Villeneuve. Those Ferrari's he ran in the latter few years were absolute dogs compared to the field. Senna would have won in a handcart IMO. Fangio, Moss, Clark and Stewart all had to fight off some really talented competitors and didn't always have the best car either. It is the greatest failing of f1 now adays that a weak car means it negates the driver totally. We don't see the great star with a lesser team in the latter years of his career carrying the car to victory any more.

Rodriguez 917

21st March 2009, 00:03

I was going to put in Villeneuve, just to see his performances in 1981 at Monaco and Spain not to mention Dijon 79 show that he was great.

I do agree Senna was better than Prost, Senna is my favourite driver ever, Schumacher is a strange one. He was awesome at Benetton and the early days at Ferrari but then the car was so good I think he lost some of that killer instinct. He was never a racer. I was trying to think of a truly good overtaking manouvere that Schumi did and couldn't think of one!

Hawkmoon

21st March 2009, 03:25

Schumacher is a strange one. He was awesome at Benetton and the early days at Ferrari but then the car was so good I think he lost some of that killer instinct. He was never a racer. I was trying to think of a truly good overtaking manouvere that Schumi did and couldn't think of one!

Rubbish! Go to YouTube and watch the clips of Brazil 2006 or Imola 2005. Schumacher never gave up. He fought Alonso to the last corner of the last lap at Imola 2005. Those were the actions of a racer, pure and simple. In Brazil '06 Schumi didn't give up despite his championship chances evapourating in qualifying and then dropping to the back of the field due to a puncture.

The difference between Schumacher and drivers like Montoya or G. Villeneuve is that Schumacher combined a brilliant racing mind with racing ability where as the other two "just went fast".

Of all the things Schumacher could be accused of, not being a racer certainly isn't one of them.

f1rocks

21st March 2009, 04:05

Schumi without a doubt. He tool F1 to a level that will never happen again. Now we are back to the mediocre era where competition has become more even. Like it was in the times of Senna, Prost, Mansell, Piquet....

MS was fearless in his early days at Benetton. And he became smart and intelligent at Ferrari...That combined with his sheer talent and fitness made him the best ever....

Rodriguez 917

21st March 2009, 15:59

Hawkmoon I think there are different definitions of racer. One is the Mansell, Senna, Villenueve, Montoya type, the guys who take a car by the scruff of the neck and go for it, make moves in the most unexpected places. The others are the Lauda, Prost, Schumacher, Massa guys who want to win from the front and let the strategy make the moves for them. Schumi's car in Brazil in 06 was far superior than the others especially Kimi's McLaren, but I do agree Imola was a good race. Winning from the front and clever strategy is the best way but it isn't as exciting! The perfect example of Schumi's style was Hungary 1998, it was an amazing win but was based on strategy and some very impressive laps not a breathtaking overtaking manouver.

morganmilan

21st March 2009, 16:06

Michael Schumacher.......no doubt. It´s simple and clear

keysersoze

21st March 2009, 17:57

People like to point out that Michael Schumacher had an advantage with the car, but it was he who deserved praise for helping make the car as good as it was. It shouldn't be a strike against a driver to work as hard on the car OUTSIDE the cockpit as IN. This is why guys like Prost, Senna, Lauda, and Alonso are so damn good. This is also why no one has mentioned Mansell with his 31 wins. His ability to develop a car, at least compared to the aforementioned, was abysmal. I often heard about him driving around his car's problems.

I'm also inclined to think Mika Hakkinen was very fortunate to have Coulthard as a teammate--the Scot was a highly-regarded test driver. Didn't McLaren also have Adrian Newey as a designer during Mika's era?

With regard to car development, I'd also have to consider Piquet among the elite. Even Damon Hill, though I think he could ONLY get the car to the front by developing it, rather than racing it through the field.

Being only in my mid-40s, I never saw Stewart, Clark, Fangio, Fittipaldi, and a host of others race, but from what I've read they are in the same mold.

Rollo

22nd March 2009, 22:43

Ok I am sick of debates about the top 100 driveras of all time etc.
I reckon Fangio is number one

Your thoughts?

The forums already collectively decided this:
http://www.motorsportforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=128684&page=3

01 - 430 Schumacher
01 - 430 Senna
03 - 428 Clark
04 - 418 Fangio
05 - 365 Stewart
06 - 354 Prost
07 - 326 Lauda
08 - 307 Ascari
09 - 294 Moss
10 - 238 Piquet

TheFamousEccles

26th May 2009, 13:20

Gilles Villeneuve - no contest. End of debate. :s mokin:

Garry Walker

27th May 2009, 15:42

Gilles Villeneuve - no contest. End of debate. :s mokin:

The most overrated driver of all times.

Brown, Jon Brow

27th May 2009, 16:20

Jenson Button

555-04Q2

27th May 2009, 16:22

Jenson Button

You're pulling the micky today, arent you ;)

TheFamousEccles

28th May 2009, 11:52

The most overrated driver of all times.

No, that title goes to the Schu (awaits the flames...)

SGWilko

28th May 2009, 11:59

Best F1 Driver ever - impossible to answer.

What should be the question is this;

Who was the best F1 driver for each era. Era should be defined for either a specific time period, or whan a certain set of rules deicted the type of cars that were run.

I.E. best F1 driver of the ground force era, or best F1 driver in the 60's etc.

blito

28th May 2009, 19:44

Problem with labeling someone as "best" is that you have to be specific about what they were best at...
Best F1 driver for results - Schumacher
Best F1 driver to entertain - Petersen
Best F1 driver at crashing - De Cesaris
it all depends on what attributes your studying and sadly this kind of post never goes into that depth, developing instead into a clash of opinions spouted forth by people with little to qualify them for spouting forth....
as for the record, my FAVOURITE driver was Ukyo Katayama... just because of the name :D

blito

28th May 2009, 19:58

And the answer to that my friend is almost as ambiguous as the best as the title "greatest" relies on a drivers popularity and that cannot be judged by current opinion alone. To get a true feeling you have to look at each driver at his peak and weigh up their superiority over his peers and, TBH, could you pick between Fangio/Moss/Clark/Stuart/Lauda/Prost/Senna/Schumacher ?
I think on the question of who had the greatest advantage in skill over his rivals then its Jim Clark, but i know people will offer aguments for others off that list.. its all subjective.

And in anyway, its Ukyo all the way baby!

555-04Q2

29th May 2009, 14:14

The best is definately Michael Schumacher due to his amazing record IMO...

Now the real question should be 'Who is the greatest F1 driver in history?'

For me that would be Senna, but thats not always a popular choice on here... I think Stefan Bellof could have been up there, but we'll never know... King of the ring he is though ;)

GREATEST: adj., great·er, great·est.

1. Very large in size.
2. Larger in size than others of the same kind.
3. Large in quantity or number.
4. Extensive in time or distance.
5. Remarkable or outstanding in magnitude, degree, or extent.
6. Of outstanding significance or importance.
7. Chief or principal.
8. Superior in quality or character.
9. Powerful; influential: one of the greats.
10. Eminent; distinguished: a great leader.
11. Grand; aristocratic.
12. Informal. Enthusiastic.
13. Informal. Very skillful.
14. Informal. Very good; first-rate.
16. Archaic.

Sounds like Schumacher all the way. People just cant accept it.

ShiftingGears

30th May 2009, 05:28

GREATEST: adj., great·er, great·est.

1. Very large in size.
2. Larger in size than others of the same kind.
3. Large in quantity or number.
4. Extensive in time or distance.
5. Remarkable or outstanding in magnitude, degree, or extent.
6. Of outstanding significance or importance.
7. Chief or principal.
8. Superior in quality or character.
9. Powerful; influential: one of the greats.
10. Eminent; distinguished: a great leader.
11. Grand; aristocratic.
12. Informal. Enthusiastic.
13. Informal. Very skillful.
14. Informal. Very good; first-rate.
16. Archaic.

Sounds like Schumacher all the way. People just cant accept it.

Notice that not all of them say "greatest in terms of statistics".

race_director

31st May 2009, 00:36

Ide is the best drive ever.. Mazzacane comes a close second. And Alex Young is third best ever.....

Noone else can even match these 3 superstars..

i would place alex as the greatest , since he also has the talent of a f1 expert ( since no one invites him to races now days, he commentates by sitting in a studio ) by the by i have never come across a single instance of him talking sense :)

555-04Q2

1st June 2009, 13:09

Notice that not all of them say "greatest in terms of statistics".

Are you kidding me :?:

Looks like Bags has been sharing his acid :s hock: :p :

ShiftingGears

1st June 2009, 13:52

Are you kidding me :?:

Looks like Bags has been sharing his acid :s hock: :p :

Maybe you should read all the definitions and come back to me on that.

V12

2nd June 2009, 01:38

We'll never *know* who was/is the greatest - and that for me is half the fun.

555-04Q2

2nd June 2009, 07:44

OK. Here is my take on this, he ticks every box for me, its just so obvious:

1. Very large in size - he was larger than the other drivers in stature, ability and stats.
2. Larger in size than others of the same kind - far better stats than any other driver that has ever lived.
3. Large in quantity or number - most wins, most poles, most WDC etc.
4. Extensive in time or distance - raced for 2 decades and 249 races.
5. Remarkable or outstanding in magnitude, degree, or extent - self explanatory (for smart people at least)
6. Of outstanding significance or importance - helped create a new era at Ferrari and influenced the team as no other driver ever has.
7. Chief or principal - only JT had more clout then MS at Ferrari.
8. Superior in quality or character - quality is without doubt and his character was exactly what you need in an F1 driver, he was ruthless, win at all costs.
9. Powerful; influential: one of the greats - self explanatory.
10. Eminent; distinguished: a great leader - he lead Ferrari to the greatest period of dominance in F1 history for a team and driver.
11. Grand; aristocratic - OK, he wasnt that grand.
12. Informal. Enthusiastic - enthusiastic, YES!
13. Informal. Very skillful - skillful, YES!
14. Informal. Very good; first-rate - he wasnt good, he was fu@king unbelievable.
16. Archaic - sadly, he's retired now.

555-04Q2

2nd June 2009, 14:03

I agree that statistics do not a greatest driver make, but its the combination of statistics and his pure ability that make him the greatest IMO.

You forget that MS did not have the best car every season, in fact over half his career he did not have anywhere near the lead car in the field, yet he still managed to win races for 16 straight years, in good and bad cars, an amazing achievement.

He won 7 WDC and challenged very closely for another 4 (97 until his car failed, 98 was beaten by a fast McLaren and fast Mika, 99 until he broke his leg and 06 until his engine failed). Name another driver that has won or come second in 11 seasons? He was consistantly good.

He did race against some of the greats, beat some of them when giventhe chance, and was cleaning up Senna until Senna put it into the wall in 94.

He dominated in the wet and in the dry. In the wet, his true driving talents came to the fore.

He was competitive from his short first race at Spa 91 to his brilliant last race at Brazil 06.

He formed a team around him at Ferrari that no other driver has been capable of doing. He made his own success.

He was always complimentary to his team and never did I see him blame his team for their failures. he was always encouraging his team trying to get them to go that little bit further, push a little harder. He was a great motivator.

He dominated all his teamates and dominated F1 with an iron fist.

Add his statistics to his achievements and abilities and he is the greatest.

I dont see how a Stewart, Clark, Prost, Senna etc can be claimed at the greatest. What did they achieve that was so much better than what Schumi achieved?

Triumph

3rd June 2009, 18:37

Triumph

4th June 2009, 03:25

Okay, fair enough, but I was quite surprised that it took 19 posts before his name got mentioned!

Having given it some thought I still think that Schumacher is my choice though. Fangio is obviously another name that springs to mind, but I can't appreciate all that he achieved as it was all so long before my time :-)

ShiftingGears

4th June 2009, 07:27

What did they achieve that was so much better than what Schumi achieved?

I'd say that Clark and Fangio achieved what Schumacher did - being the greatest drivers of their era. Neither of those drivers are better than each other, in that respect.

ClarkFan

14th June 2009, 21:10

Actually he looked like Jarno. :D

If the truck broke, it was Webber. If no one could get past him, it was Trulli.....

ClarkFan

ClarkFan

15th June 2009, 02:19

I think on the question of who had the greatest advantage in skill over his rivals then its Jim Clark, but i know people will offer aguments for others off that list.. its all subjective.

Finally, someone with the correct answer!

Clark won despite knowing that his car could fall to bits under him at any time, including at Watkins Glen in 1967 after one had. And if Chapman had only screwed the damn cars together better, Clark would have won 5 World Championships and the Indianapolis 500 twice.

ClarkFan

555-04Q2

15th June 2009, 07:36

I'd say that Clark and Fangio achieved what Schumacher did - being the greatest drivers of their era. Neither of those drivers are better than each other, in that respect.

And thats the selling point for me, while the others were the greatest F1 drivers of their era, one was the greatest F1 driver of all time, MS.

555-04Q2

15th June 2009, 07:40

I take it that there's a reason for the marked avoidance of the obvious choice (Michael Schumacher). Is this just a forum thing?

I'm just wondering if I should feign superior knowledge too, and pick someone inferior to Schumacher.

Its just a forum thing. Nowehere else on this planet have I had a normal conversation with other racing enthusiasts about the greatest drivers in F1's history that MS does not have the top vote everytime.

I think its stems from the fact that people on this forum only had 1 WDC from when this forum started in 2000 to the end of 2005 when Alonso finally won. People just hated him for winning all the time.

555-04Q2

15th June 2009, 11:25

It doesn't stem from 2000 for me I'm afraid. I've been watching F1 since 1988 and as I've said multiple times before its down to the individuals opinion. If this isn't a normal conversation then I'm really sorry about that, but if people don't always agree with you, its not personal. :)

There are many other racing enthusiasts who don't rate MS as the top driver would you believe. Perhaps a broader field is needed to be researched in your case?? When doing a quick search I found only a handfull of poles which had Schumacher on the top spot. My personal opinion is Senna, but I would not argue that that is totally correct as it is my opinion. I just hate it when someone says 'well MS won 7 WDC's and single handedly lead his team to success, and was the best team player ever so he's got to be the greatest!' To be honest the majority opinion of 'Greatest F1 Driver in history' goes to Jim Clark!! So that appears to be the popular choice. Schumacher and Senna are quite frequently ranked at third and fourth in most poles. It just goes to prove that career stats don't always garrantee popularity. Jim Clark is also a worthy choice IMO...

Have a look at the following links, I'm sure you won't be able to believe your eyes that there are so many 'abnormal' people out there. A real eye opener..

http://www.gtplanet.net/forum/showthread.php?t=115674

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/motorsport/formula_one/3168114.stm

http://www.bruce-mclaren.com/news/bruce-mclaren-voted-74th-greatest-f1-driver-of-all-time

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/sport/formula_1/article5986660.ece

http://www.newsonf1.com/opinion/topic022/submit.htm

http://www.pollwizard.com/7921

http://www.edmunds.com/insideline/do/News/articleId=125191

You're normal as is this conversation :) I was refering to conversations I have had in person with non-fanatical people (ie: neutral parties and people who arent die-hard fans of a particular driver) including motoring scribes, current and ex racing drivers etc who generally agree 90% of the time that MS was the greatest from their point of view.

BTW, thank for the links :up: