Crash Safety now and in the Future

[Hoop-98]

I habe not had much luck getting people to discuss the science of racing safety. It seems the "concerned" individuals may prefer to make such valuable contributions as, maybe they shouldn't fly like airplanse or other similar scientific comments.

That said, I am prepared to be pleasantly surprised. These papers can be found at http://www.sae.org and can be downloaded for 14.00/11.20 member. There are strict DRM protocols and SAE is serious about their copyright.

That said, if one wants (serious) information about a topic, I will when I have time paraphrase or report data from these studies.

It is quite clear that both CART and INdy Car have been very serious about advancing racing safety and ill informed/ignorant infammatory comments about racing safety are IMHO the true dark side of any fanatical so called fan.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

I am hearing concern about driver safety from some here. Assuming it is genuine I would like to share a list of SAE papers on that subject regarding Indy Car, CART/Champ Car/Atlantics.

Of particular interest would be:

2004-01-3506 : Aerodynamics of Race Car Liftoff 11/30/2004 Paper
...attack aerodynamics may influence future safety-related regulations. Therefore, the first...quarter-scale model of an Indy car was tested to generate similar...
Author(s): Joseph Katz, Robin Sluder, Darwin Garcia

2006-01-3630 : Spine Fractures in Open Cockpit Open Wheel Racecar Drivers 12/05/2006 Paper
...investigated with a barrier test of a fully loaded Indy Car at an impact speed of 80 kph. Occupant kinematics...wheel speed. Sled test using a 60 g pulse (Indy Car pulse) and THOR ATD were carried out to verify...
Author(s): Terry R. Trammell

There obviously has been a lot of research in these areas, these are just papers I have purchased. Anyone can purchase these but they are DRM crippled so don't think you can easily copy them. SAE lives off this revenue and they take copyright seriously.

Enjoy, or not***

983161 : Biomechanical Analysis of Indy Race Car Crashes 11/02/1998 Paper
...project in the GM Motorsports Safety Technology Research Program to investigate Indianapolis-type (Indy car) race car crashes using...to investigate Indianapolis-type (Indy car) race car crashes using an on-board...
Author(s): John W. Melvin, Kenneth J. Baron, William C. Little, Thomas W. Gideon, John Pierce


2001-22-0019 : Development and Field Performance of Indy Race Car Head Impact Padding 11/01/2001 Paper
...close-fitting cockpit of the modern Indy car single seat race car has the potential to provide...
Author(s): John W. Melvin, Henry Bock, Kathryn Anderson, Thomas Gideon

2002-01-3311 : Aerodynamic Effects of Indy Car Components 12/02/2002 Paper
...A generic, Indy-type, open-wheel, racecar model was tested in a low-speed, fixed ground...simulation since one of the objectives was to allow flow visualization under the car (and this is not possible with current rolling ground wind tunnel setups). Consequently...
Author(s): Joseph Katz



2004-01-3515 : Biomechanical Principles of Racecar Seat Design for Side Impact Protection 11/30/2004 Paper
...crash recorder based investigations of Indy car crashes. Insights gained from these...seat chassis cars to stock car and sports car seats has led to significant...
Author(s): John W. Melvin

2004-01-3539 : Brain Injury Prediction for Indy Race Car Drivers Using Finite Element Model of the Human Head 11/30/2004 Paper
...evaluate a new tool for assessing brain injury. Many race car drivers have suffered concussion and other brain injuries and are...Motorsports conference, results of a MADYMO model of a racing car and driver driven by 3-D accelerations recorded in actual crashes...
Author(s): John W. Melvin, Paul Begeman, Liying Zhang

2006-01-3633 : Biomechanical Investigation of Thoracolumbar Spine Fractures in Indianapolis-type Racing Car Drivers during Frontal Impacts 12/05/2006 Paper
...spinal loads causing thoracolumbar spinal fractures in Indianapolis-type racing car drivers. Crash reports from 1996 to 2006, showed a total...study focuses on thoracolumbar spine fractures in Indianapolis-type racing car drivers during frontal impacts and was performed using driver medical...
Author(s): Tara B. Troxel

2002-01-3305 : Mathematical Modelling of Crash-Induced Dynamic Loads on Race Car Drivers 12/02/2002 Paper
...A MADYMO model of a racing car and driver was driven by 3-D accelerations recorded in actual crashes. Helmet, belt restraint, and padding characteristics were obtained from dynamics tests. Model results...
Author(s): John W. Melvin, Paul C. Begeman

2006-01-3663 : Multi-Disciplinary Design of the Champ Car Atlantic Race Car 12/05/2006 Paper
...of the Swift 016.a Champ Car Atlantic race car, highlighting particular items of interest...
Author(s): John Winkler, Chris Norris, Casper Van der Schoot, Neil W. Roberts, Adrian Fazio

2002-01-3350 : Medical and Technical Outcomes of HansSr Use in Cart 12/02/2002 Paper
...From past experience, crash accelerations in CART Champ Cars during 2000 and 2001 would have caused head injuries at a 15% occurrence rate and neck injuries at a 7.5% occurrence. In 28 incidents...
Author(s): Robert P. Hubbard, Terry Trammell

983069 : Predicting the Response of a Cart Car Driver in a Crash Using Mathematical Modeling 11/16/1998 Paper
...pulse as measured by an impact sensor implemented jointly by Ford and CART, Inc. The race driver is represented by the Hybrid-III dummy data...loads. The model was exercised using seven crash pulses form the 1997 CART season and results were compared with reported injuries....
Author(s): Paul Stanecki, Dong Zhun Sin, D. Para V. Weerappuli

2002-01-3350 : Medical and Technical Outcomes of HansSr Use in Cart 12/02/2002 Paper
...From past experience, crash accelerations in CART Champ Cars during 2000 and 2001 would have caused head injuries at a 15% occurrence rate and neck injuries at a 7.5% occurrence. In 28 incidents...
Author(s): Robert P. Hubbard, Terry Trammell



rh

[grungex]

It might be more helpful if you were to summarize, even lightly, some of the conclusions reached. Simply knowing that such papers exist isn't going to add much to the discussion, IMHO.

[Hoop-98]

It might be more helpful if you were to summarize, even lightly, some of the conclusions reached. Simply knowing that such papers exist isn't going to add much to the discussion, IMHO.

I agree, which one would be the most interesting for everyone?


rh

[Alexamateo]

Thanks for your posts Hoop, and thanks for bringing a sense of rationality to other threads talking about different car designs and speeds etc.

Now, I am an IRL fan, but I have been curious as to why the IRL spec cars have tended to "fly" since the change of specs in 1997 or so. The paper on aerodynamics of race-car liftoff would interest me most, I guess. Is it just coincidence?, or Is there something inherent in the design that would make a car want to lift off?

Also, before it gets brought up, Dario's second flip this past season was caused because he ran up the back of another car. That would happen in any formula car and was exactly the same as Christian Fittipaldi's flip in F1 a few years ago.

[grungex]

I agree, which one would be the most interesting for everyone?


rh

I'd say the first two would have most relevance to past discussions.

[garyshell]

I vote for the one about liftoff and this one:

2002-01-3311 : Aerodynamic Effects of Indy Car Components 12/02/2002 Paper
...A generic, Indy-type, open-wheel, racecar model was tested in a low-speed, fixed ground...simulation since one of the objectives was to allow flow visualization under the car (and this is not possible with current rolling ground wind tunnel setups). Consequently...
Author(s): Joseph Katz

Gary

[Hoop-98]

Ill do some liftoff points then when I hit the ground

[CCWS77]

I habe not had much luck getting people to discuss the science of racing safety. It seems the "concerned" individuals may prefer to make such valuable contributions as, maybe they shouldn't fly like airplanse or other similar scientific comments.rh

Crash safety implies you want to measure and compare how a driver is injured in 2 different cars if they were in a similiar accident. I have no idea about the relatively safety of the cars we are talking about in such tests. Perhaps the Dallara is extremely safe.

The traditional flame wars on the topic start because of IRL Dallara defender's general lack of recognition that the 2 series cars were unlikely to crash in the same way as each other in the first place.

[Hoop-98]

Crash safety implies you want to measure and compare how a driver is injured in 2 different cars if they were in a similiar accident. I have no idea about the relatively safety of the cars we are talking about in such tests. Perhaps the Dallara is extremely safe.

The traditional flame wars on the topic start because of IRL Dallara defender's general lack of recognition that the 2 series cars were unlikely to crash in the same way as each other in the first place.

The first sentence in your reply is absolutely not related to any topics in those papers, there is no comparison of the type you refer to. Crash safety is not an CART/CCWS/Indy Car topic.It is a racing topic, only a small minority of people would phrase the subject in the terms you did I dare say.

I see, so this is an IRL fan problem, unlike we fair minded intelligent CC fans. Yeah that explains it. The into the shredder, Frequent Flyer comments on the CC side are just realistic looks and not inflammatory.

Actuallly it sounds like you already know pretty much all there is to know here, so sorry I wastd your time, have a great day, for the rest of us, i will dig into the liftoff paper.


rh

[Hoop-98]

First some screenshots of excerpts. Please purchase the paper if you want all the detail.

Image 1.

http://i28.tinypic.com/2ns5po1.jpg

Part 1

http://i31.tinypic.com/111unic.jpg

These two are relevant to each other. The main conclusion is that only an extremely high level of downforce could defeat pitchup until the "tipping point is reached"

Part 2

http://i30.tinypic.com/jgozkg.jpg

None of the designs will "blow over" without something up setting the car. Debris or primarily contact cause Indy Car lift off.

Design changes could perhaps make a couple of degree differences on the critical point, but whether it be 10 deg at 200 or 7 at 220 an upset can lead to lift off/blowover and only preventing the upset can truly prevent it.

Now faster speeds, closer racing are definitely aggrivating factors, and will in all likelihood be the prime factors in differernt rates for different series. But in the case of Franchitti, any open wheel indy type car going 200 plus and getting the nose up over 10 degrees will, depending upon orientation, likely lift off. His first event was a collision and not much could be done there. His second event he had brain fade and just ran wide open into another car after the checkered flag. Luckily he walked away from both.

Now racing at 95 to 140 mph avg speeds in nose to tail is going to be less likely to cause lift off than racing at 220 mph side by side, but that is not a car design issue, the last conclusions are mine own, the rest can be seen in the excerpts. The critical point goes up at the cube of the speed . So if we are 10 at 200 and 7 at 220 yoou can work out the regression.
Sorry for errors and succinctness it's been a 14 hour workday.


rh

[Hoop-98]

Guess that wasn't a good pick :)

[CCWS77]

The first sentence in your reply is absolutely not related to any topics in those papers, there is no comparison of the type you refer to. Crash safety is not an CART/CCWS/Indy Car topic.It is a racing topic, only a small minority of people would phrase the subject in the terms you did I dare say.

"Crash safety" which is in the title of the thread is a general automotive term used all the time and not even confined to racing. As in, passenger cars are actually rated for crash safety by systematically crashing them in the exact same ways that can be measured and duplicated. If this is NOT what you are talking about and want to talk about the safety of the race cars beyond that and in those articles such as what causes cars to become unstable then I commend you for having a real discussion. It is Dallara fans who run back to the aformentioned definition which you have just declared as irrelevant and talked about "cracked tubs" and such inorder to ignore issues such as:


None of the designs will "blow over" without something up setting the car. Debris or primarily contact cause Indy Car lift off.

Design changes could perhaps make a couple of degree differences on the critical point, but whether it be 10 deg at 200 or 7 at 220 an upset can lead to lift off/blowover and only preventing the upset can truly prevent it.

If running over a small piece of debris raises the noise by say 5 degrees then this point is extremely critical and something nobody ever wants to talk about at all. Im afraid I dont have any technical details to talk about it in depth Im just pointing out that is a specific topic people run from and which in the past IRL supporters specifically denied was important. Well there it is the first thing you quoted and no one else wants to join the thread. go figure

[Hoop-98]

"Crash safety" which is in the title of the thread is a general automotive term used all the time and not even confined to racing. As in, passenger cars are actually rated for crash safety by systematically crashing them in the exact same ways that can be measured and duplicated. If this is NOT what you are talking about and want to talk about the safety of the race cars beyond that and in those articles such as what causes cars to become unstable then I commend you for having a real discussion. It is Dallara fans who run back to the aformentioned definition which you have just declared as irrelevant and talked about "cracked tubs" and such inorder to ignore issues such as:



If running over a small piece of debris raises the noise by say 5 degrees then this point is extremely critical and something nobody ever wants to talk about at all. Im afraid I dont have any technical details to talk about it in depth Im just pointing out that is a specific topic people run from and which in the past IRL supporters specifically denied was important. Well there it is the first thing you quoted and no one else wants to join the thread. go figure

OhhhhK, it's them darn dallara defenders, ck

rh

[ShiftingGears]

Wait, so the greater the gradient of the Lift vs angle line, the more likely the car is to flip?

Good thread :up:

[CCWS77]

Hey, you are the one who brought up the topic and then who pre-emptively assumed people wont actually talk about the topic and pre-emptively tried to steer the conversation away from talking about lift. So we finally agree this thread is about what can cause a racecar to go catastophically out of control and leave the pavement. My complaint is you tried to steer the conversation away from this that is all.

Im honestly not sure if im looking correctly at the chart you posted? Is the dotted line the Indy car data? If so I think that is pretty damning that it has a higher lift value then drag racers at the same angle. That is before even considering what isnt represented on the chart which is that having a formula where the front suspension is relatively raised is directly relevant to this even if comparing to something like Lemans which evidently has a high lift value. What does it matter if your car has a low lift at a low angle if the angle of your car is naturally higher anyway? Maybe we can reference Mario Andretti for this "Those stupid IRL cars, they have the nose up thing".

[Sandfly]

I seem to recall some instances where the cars spins, catches air on the side then gets airborne and flips- no debris no nose lift until the whole car is in the air. But I could be wrong. While it is quite true that the flight characteristics of the Dalharra have been studied at lenght, along with many other aspects of vehicle crash dynamics and human biomechanics of impact, there is the general perception that the current chassis in the IRL is prone to lifting off of the racing surface. That perception does not exist for any of the current race cars of the other major racing series.

I am sure the research will continue and hopefully measures will be taken to reduce such instances. The issues of crash safety are not limited to vehicle characteristics but many other factors such as barrier design, seat and restraint geometry, driver fitness, track factors, crash scene management, safety/medical response. I hope- and believe - that all of those factors will continue to be adressed - and not simply be a forum topic to be brandished about when the next serious crash occurs.

[MAX_THRUST]

Flaps!!!!!

Is there no way flaps as on NASCAR car's could be placed on side pods should the vehicle get into a side ways spin, or alternatively be fitted to wings so should by chance a car be going backwards at speed, it cannot lift because the flaps pop up????

Don't know if flaps would be useable on an open wheel car, but a look into it must be worth it.

Secondly smaller wings, the old super speedway wings (CART ERA)certainly didn't create much lift, Greg Moores accident at Fontana was with speedway wings and he only took off due to the transition from grass to road to grass surface, which tilted the car. Again had the car had flaps on would it have slowed quicker in a spin, had the wall been a safer barrier at that time it wouldn't have helped due to the hieght attained by Greg, and possibly the angle of the wall he struck, the only real answer was to tarmac the infield section between turns two and three.

Also whilst Indy car has made great steps in strengthening the rear of the cars for rearward wall impacts on ovals the result led to more back injuries to drivers. Whilst prior to Sennas accident the sides of F1 cars had been lowered to allow easier egress from a car of a driver by safety crews. The lowering of the sides contributed to the death of Roland, and serious injury to Mika Hakkinen. So the sides of cars since then have raised to the height they are now, but that has reduced visabillty. Or the strengthening of nose cones on CART cars that may have had some impact on saving many drivers from serious injury to their lower limbs, but may have cost Zanardi his...

I think this demonstrates any changes to car design can have a knock on effect in some other areas. This is why scientists and engineers work on these things and I sit back and watch the racing, because I am not equipped with the knowledge or experience to make changes.

I hope we have a great season with no injuries caused to any driver, which can be attributed to flying cars and I hope that the merged series will allow for more investment into safety. The safer barriers, Hans devices, were not about at the start of the split of CART and the IRL in 96, at least we have come some way since then. Lets hope we can take it further, and keep the spectacle fast, close, entertaining, and safer than ever before.

[Hoop-98]

Hey, you are the one who brought up the topic and then who pre-emptively assumed people wont actually talk about the topic and pre-emptively tried to steer the conversation away from talking about lift. So we finally agree this thread is about what can cause a racecar to go catastophically out of control and leave the pavement. My complaint is you tried to steer the conversation away from this that is all.

Im honestly not sure if im looking correctly at the chart you posted? Is the dotted line the Indy car data? If so I think that is pretty damning that it has a higher lift value then drag racers at the same angle. That is before even considering what isnt represented on the chart which is that having a formula where the front suspension is relatively raised is directly relevant to this even if comparing to something like Lemans which evidently has a high lift value. What does it matter if your car has a low lift at a low angle if the angle of your car is naturally higher anyway? Maybe we can reference Mario Andretti for this "Those stupid IRL cars, they have the nose up thing".

Actually you might want to rethink the damning part, that indy car model is not an irl car. As you said earlier, you don't have any technical details.

The largest factor by far is not the car design, but the racing environment.

Flaps were investigated as well as other active devices. That led to some changes in the rules but passive devices to stall lift in yaw.

Max, I am travelling today but I will upload some data asap. There is a lot to the seat position and where the peak loads occur, but front and rear crashes have trade offs. I would bet the next design is slightly more upright, but the minor details will be the most important.

rh

[Andrewmcm]

Hoop-98, I'm sure you can paste abstracts in here. They're usually the "free" part of academic journals and can be found on most abstracting databases for nothing.

[Hoop-98]

For Max, here is an idea of the test setup, there is also data from 38 crashes in 6 different series, more when I have a sec.

http://i29.tinypic.com/29c8myp.jpg

They take known craash pulses from crashes and feed them into the HBM, the problem is what helps one area hurts another, but they are making improvementts, and i am sure this data will be an important consideration for the future car. Due to timing, I doubt this was available for the DP01 design, but not sure, they were concurrent.

rh

[Hoop-98]

For the Spinal Fracture Paper:

Document Number: 2006-01-3630
Date Published: December 2006
Author(s):
Terry R. Trammell - Orthopaedics Indianapolis (http://www.motorsportforums.com/servlets/product?PROD_TYP=PAPER&ACN=65758155118&AUTHOR_NAME=Terry+R.+Trammell&PLA_SW=YES)
Abstract:
Spinal fractures in open-cockpit, open-wheeled racecars have increased in frequency over the past 10 years (7.5% of all racing injuries in 1995 to 18.7% currently). In order to quantitate this and investigate potential causes we collected all fractures occurring in 5 open-wheeled series from 1996 to 2005. The ultimate goal of the study is to identify causative factors that can be altered to lessen the fracture risk. This is a multipart study. These fractures were categorized as to fracture type and severity, and correlated to ADR-2 data from the race car. Also used in the analysis were data from a rearward impact barrier test, HYGE sled testing and development of a computer model. (Development of the model is reported in a separate submission)
Thirty-eight incidents resulted in fractures in 36 different drivers (2 involved in 2 incidents). 54 spinal levels were injured with 9 drivers sustaining injury at more than one level. The thoracic and thoracolumbar spine was involved most frequently. Of the 38 injured drivers 26 sustained injury in a rearward-directed impact 15 of which produced thoracic or thoracolumbar fractures.
Fractures were classified according to Gertzbein's Comprehensive Classification System. All thoracic and thoracolumbar fractures sustained in rearward impacts were Type A axial compression fractures. We created a Fracture Severity Index to allow for analysis of the severity of these fractures which were similar in morphology. Fractures sustained in rearward impacts were less severe than fractures in frontal impacts. Rearward impacts accounted for 67% of the injuries, 63% of the levels injured and averaged 2.9 severity index (max 6.0).
Rearward impact was investigated with a barrier test of a fully loaded Indy Car at an impact speed of 80 kph. Occupant kinematics observed documented the ramping phenomena as well as a potential source of the vertical loading.
Injured drivers ADR-2 data were trended with fracture level, type, and severity.
The ADR-2 is an Accident Data Recorder that is supplied by Delphi. It is secured to the chassis of the race car and is required equipment in the IRL and IPS as well as the other series included in this report. It senses and records key vehicle parameters at 1000 samples per second prior to, during and after a predetermined triggering event. Some of the parameters recorded include X,Y,Z axis accelerations, yaw rate, steering angle, throttle position, and wheel speed. Sled test using a 60 g pulse (Indy Car pulse) and THOR ATD were carried out to verify and validate data from the ADR-2.
Thoracic and thoracolumbar spine fractures are characterized by compressive loads; the ADR-2 data demonstrates vertical axis spikes which are reproducible on the sled in the T8 and T12 load cells.
These data and literature review identified threshold loads predictive of spinal fracture in an open-cockpit, open-wheeled race car.
Continued investigation is focused on making alterations in the seat contour and foam material to help mitigate the impact loads, reducing the ramping phenomena and therefore compression loading on the spine.

[Hoop-98]

For Lift-off

Document Number: 2004-01-3506
Date Published: November 2004
Author(s):
Joseph Katz - San Diego State Univ. (http://www.motorsportforums.com/servlets/product?PROD_TYP=PAPER&ACN=29489481261&AUTHOR_NAME=Joseph+Katz&PLA_SW=YES)
Robin Sluder - San Diego State Univ.
Darwin Garcia - San Diego State Univ.
Abstract:
Recently, the off-design aerodynamics of race cars has gained increased attention due to several incidents involving race car liftoff. Although these incidents are rare and usually are a result of an earlier contact, the study of vehicle's high angle of attack aerodynamics may influence future safety-related regulations. Therefore, the first portion of this study examines available liftoff data in the open literature on a variety of race cars. This data indicates that prototype race cars have a higher lift slope than open-wheel race cars due to their larger underbody area. In the second part of this study a quarter-scale model of an Indy car was tested to generate similar data on an open-wheel race car. Both the previous and current data indicate that race cars under normal racing conditions have sufficient front downforce to eliminate the possibility of liftoff. Only when some sort of collision or other contact lifts the vehicle front by several degrees can the aerodynamic lift overcome the weight of the car and result in an unstable pitch up. The available data suggests that by using less ground-effect dependent front downforce devices, the risk of vehicle liftoff is reduced. In the case of open-wheel race cars, some sort of peripheral bumper limiting wheel entanglement could significantly reduce the chain of events leading to vehicle liftoff.




rh

[Hoop-98]

Anyone can go to http://www.sae.org and search by document number and cut and paste the Abstracts here if they like, i have to hit the road ASAP>

Thanks

rh

[Wilf]

Anyone can go to http://www.sae.org and search by document number and cut and paste the Abstracts here if they like, i have to hit the road ASAP>

Thanks

rh

I just began reading Dr. Olvey's Sudden Response and was wondering how I could get some of the reports he said they were beginning to produce. While I haven't found his reports yet, I was able to get a couple by Drs. Trammell, Weaver and Bock. There is quite a bit of information available there and it will be interesting to see how many people will bother to buy the material and read it before offering their conclusions.

Thanks for the tip. I look forward to many interesting discussions.

[CCWS77]

I'm not sure what this means.


that indy car model is not an irl car


The chart shows Indy car as higher then dragster.

[Hoop-98]

That INDY Car model is a CART type Indy Car model.

rh

[geek49203]

As I posted in another thread... does anyone have the new FIA standards that will apply to the next gen IRL car?

Those standards would probably apply to F1 as well.

I know that one standard is the ability to remove the driver while still in the seat, meaning that the cockpit opening will need to be significantly wider, and probably longer too.

[Sandfly]

The cockpit of the panoz was built significantly wider than the Lola for purposs of driver extrication. The concept of the extractable seat has not met with universal acceptance. There is questionable value in removing the driver in a fixed sitting position and then having to remove him/her from the seat to be placed in spinal immobilization. In addition, the seat complicates custimization and is not readily applicable to the full spectrum of vehicles under FIA control.

The Champ Car safety team has routinely performed fully immobilized extrications in under 3 min from impact , including the driver assesment prior to determining the need for extrication. In fact, the process became so rapid and rountine that they often used full extrication as the fastest way to control a crash scene and avoid a driver limping to a safety car possibly with a more serious injury. They use a commercially avaliable short spine device - SpinBinder Extricator - that was designed and patented by Rick Timms, one of the CART doctors and has been used by the team since 1992. It is orange and blue and is seen in most driver extrications. That extricator is also used by the track safety team at DAYTONA -and most other major racetracks.

I am not sure what the IRL is currently using. I have seen pictures that show the solid scoop device that was in use by CART before 1990. Certainly the new chassis development will incorporate proven safety concepts such as wider cockpit and higher side pods, but I am not sure that the extractable seat is one of those.

Maybe the FIA regs will have an "aesthetic threshold" to protect the eyes of the spectators. :)

[Hoop-98]

As I posted in another thread... does anyone have the new FIA standards that will apply to the next gen IRL car?

Those standards would probably apply to F1 as well.

I know that one standard is the ability to remove the driver while still in the seat, meaning that the cockpit opening will need to be significantly wider, and probably longer too.

I don't have the answer but you might want to look here.

http://www.fiainstitute.com/groups/groups_a.htm


rh

[CCWS77]

I'll stick by the statement that it is a problem to have a worse lift value then drag racers. Unlike those cars they NEED to be able to handle varied conditions. If it isnt on the chart fine, but I think it is a very safe assumption the value for the IRL is higher then CART.

National Geographic Channel
Crash Science: Race Cars [TV-G Ratings N/A]
Saturday, March 8, 2008, at 03P
Also airs:
Thursday, March 13, 4P
In the high-octane fast lanes of the world's toughest race tracks, daredevil drivers put their lives on the line and high-tech engineering to the ultimate road test. Speeding at nearly 200 mph, the quest for victory can turn to catastrophe in a sickening split second. For race car designers and safety engineers, survival on the track is an extraordinary challenge - pushing the sport to new heights. Now, NGC explores technologies which could change racing safety - and auto design - forever.

This touches on all these topics including fire, hans device, break performance, driver extraction ect including liftoft which is emphasized as caused by dirty air in pack racing. Footage from NASCAR, CC, and European events. THe IRL isnt discussed or the problem of running over minor debris causing lift.

[Hoop-98]

Assumptions and restating your position without any scintific data seems about par for your posts in this thread. That does sound like a show worth tivo thanks for the heads up.

Rh