Dallaras are slow thread should not have been closed

[Osiris333]

I object to this thread being closed. There is absolutly no reason we can't discuss the differences between the two formulas that were IRL and Champ Car, because right now Indycar is evaluating the new chasis and engine regs for 2010.

And we are all in the process of deciding if we are going to start watching the new Indycar. For a lot of us, thst depends on what the new formula turns out to be. Admitting that the Champ Car DP01 is A) Faster than the Dallara, and B) far more difficult to drive, isn't "IRL Bashing," it's simply admitting the obvious so we can discuss what the new formula should be.

Stop being a control freak and let us have our back and forth. Nobody was making any personal attacks. Re-open the thread.

[garyshell]

The very first message in the thread was indeed bashing. Unfortunately the thread didn't talk about the new formula.

I suspect that a thread opened to discuss the new formula would not be shut down, provided it does indeed talk about the new formula.

Gary

[!!WALDO!!]

The very first message in the thread was indeed bashing. Unfortunately the thread didn't talk about the new formula.

I suspect that a thread opened to discuss the new formula would not be shut down, provided it does indeed talk about the new formula.

Gary

What "new formula"? We got at least two years on this.

[garyshell]

What "new formula"? We got at least two years on this.


Do try to keep up !!Waldo!! I know this isn't in your history books yet. The new fomula in question here and elsewhere IS the one that the ICS plans to introduce in two years.

I am pretty sure the IRL is not going to wait 23 months to start figuring out what the new ICS formula will be. So, discussions of what direction it might or should take are germane here, don't ya think?

Gary

[!!WALDO!!]

Do try to keep up !!Waldo!! I know this isn't in your history books yet. The new fomula in question here and elsewhere IS the one that the ICS plans to introduce in two years.

I am pretty sure the IRL is not going to wait 23 months to start figuring out what the new ICS formula will be. So, discussions of what direction it might or should take are germane here, don't ya think?

Gary

It may change is not it will change.

The IRL changed formula it took one year. CART took one year. That is all it takes if the rules change.

It may just a newer version of todays package with tweeking. Like a 1990-1995 Lola, Reynard compared to a 1996-2000 Lola, Reynard.

[Hoop-98]

The dallara will turn laps over 80 mph faster this year than any dp01 has ever completed :)

[garyshell]

It may change is not it will change.

The IRL changed formula it took one year. CART took one year. That is all it takes if the rules change.

It may just a newer version of todays package with tweeking. Like a 1990-1995 Lola, Reynard compared to a 1996-2000 Lola, Reynard.


You might want to go back to your history book and see where "...king George" himself talked about a new formula for 2010. I don't think he said "might" anywhere in that speech.

Yes it took a year when the rules changed. And how long did it take for them to formulate the rules changes? A significant amount of time, I would think. All sorts of input would be required from manufacturers, teams, drivers, mechanics, tracks etc. Not a short term project at all.

So let's do a timeline shall we. We'll work back from the opening race of the 2010 season (the year TG said the new formula would be in use). So if it takes a year to produce the cars to make that target date, we are now at the start of the season for 2009 for that step. And lets say it takes a year to formulate the rules needed before the design process can begin, that puts us where? The start of the 2008 season. You might want to look at the calendar. It is 2008 right now. So if a new car is to be introduced in 2010, work is starting right now. Hence discussions about it are happening right now.

I realize none of this is history yet. It's all some of that new fangled future stuff.

Gary

[veeten]

The main thing is that the DP01's are history, as in aren't being used beyond the Long Beach GP this or next season.

Regardless of track speeds, that's the final decision and some folks should just get used to this and stop looking for reasons to whine & bemoan the demise/merger of ChampCar.

Let it go...

[weeflyonthewall]

The dallara will turn laps over 80 mph faster this year than any dp01 has ever completed :)

Hard to argue with that comment Hoop. We haven't seen a DP01 race competitively race on an oval yet. Just in simulation and its supposed to be far superior to the old G-Force/Panoz IRL chassis. The DP01's did prove themselves on the streets however. Lighter and narrower with great aero. I can't imagine a Dallara taking the same bumps Tracy took in Las Vegas without going flying.

[Mark in Oshawa]

I think any discussion of the new formula is fine. I think any talk of bemoaning how goofy looking Dallara's are is sorta fine, but counterproductive. We are stuck with those cars and this formula and it is part of the process of growth we have to endure to get to the result we all expect: The rebirth of OW racing in North America. Regardless of where you stood in the past, knocking the current race car may be fun to some of you, but really pointless in the end.

I hope the new formula has turbo's and I would like to think TG wouldn't dismiss all the work Panoz did on the DP-01 chassis. It never really had a chance to prove itself.....but I do think it was going to round into a pretty fair race car. That said, the Dallaras have been proven and effective and with 26 to 30 car fields, might be very entertaining.

[Rex Monaco]

The main thing is that the DP01's are history...

So are you certain that the IRL will chose to waste money developing a new from the ground up chassis rather than adopting a version of the DP01?

If they do, I'd call that stupid decision #1.

[Hoop-98]

Hard to argue with that comment Hoop. We haven't seen a DP01 race competitively race on an oval yet. Just in simulation and its supposed to be far superior to the old G-Force/Panoz IRL chassis. The DP01's did prove themselves on the streets however. Lighter and narrower with great aero. I can't imagine a Dallara taking the same bumps Tracy took in Las Vegas without going flying.

You do realize that the DP01 was the same width and weight, if not a bit heavier than the Lola right? So since it wasn't lighter or narrower and on streets it was 't faster, what should we think of the simulated oval version that no one has ever seen or heard of in public?

I have published several times references to the studies done on open wheel lift off by SDSU, you would learn that the comment about Tracy's bumps and liftoff tendencies are not related for only 14.00/11.20 member price.

So not sure about that proven on the streets, we did see fueling, tub cracking, pit speed limiter software, fuel leaks etc. and of course the starter idn't work.

The car missed most of it's design objectives.

On unchanged courses the average DP01 Q time was just slightly slower than the Lola, (still quicker than the current spec Dallara in that environment) on average.

The real problem with the DP01 is that if you gave Dallara or Lola the dimension specs that they used they would kill it, performance wise. As could Panoz if they built a car that had to compete with other chassis. Hey when the DP01 missed it's downforce targets, what did they do, they widened it back up to Lola width because that was the cheapest way, go check the tunnels under that baby, if you need pics I'll dig some of mine up when I was out at the track looking touching and feeling it up :) (The DP01 that is)

If they were not allowed to change the spec and had to compete it would take more time, money aand research to make it competitive, but cheaper just to open the spec up.

As far as the 80 MPH faster, that was facetious, but at least I put a smiley up and didn't present it as a serious comparison ala AVop.


I think discussng the future spec is a great idea, but that wasn't the gist of the topic, it was, well we all know what it was .....



rh

[Breeze]

Stop being a control freak and let us have our back and forth. Nobody was making any personal attacks. Re-open the thread.
Less than 12 posts in and garyshell has already fired two shots across waldo's bow. To his credit, waldo is not retaliating.

Here's the thing with the new formula. The powers that be have said they'd like to consider propulsion systems which utilize more green technology. What that will encompass remains to be seen, but if its anything more than biofuels we won't likely see that by 2010.

Regarding new chassis, if they will be meant to be adaptable to electric drive systems, the design phase will also likely take longer than 2 years. I'm not optimistic for anything revolutionary in 2010.

[garyshell]

Less than 12 posts in and garyshell has already fired two shots across waldo's bow. To his credit, waldo is not retaliating.



It only took seven posts and both were responses to Mr. Historybook's comments to my posts. They were not some preemptory strike as the "two shots across the bow" would imply.

Gary

[veeten]

So are you certain that the IRL will chose to waste money developing a new from the ground up chassis rather than adopting a version of the DP01?

Yes, because chassis engineering concerns would have a base design from which to work upon, not a compromise of two individual ideas followed later by whatever engine formula comes about. Better to have the package ready-to-go than to take the piecemeal route, which gets messy as time goes on.


If they do, I'd call that stupid decision #1.

To you, maybe, but then again you're not a team manager/owner that has to make those decisions & plans for the future.

[Rex Monaco]

Yes, because chassis engineering concerns would have a base design from which to work upon, not a compromise of two individual ideas followed later by whatever engine formula comes about.

Autoweek is stating in this weeks issue that the DP01 was designed to race on ovals and to use the Honda engine. Do you know this to be false?

[pits4me]

Autoweek is stating in this weeks issue that the DP01 was designed to race on ovals and to use the Honda engine. Do you know this to be false?

A variation of the DP01 that has yet to be tested. There would be an update kit made available.

It would be great to see the IRL/ICS expedite its oval readiness as a compromise to the fan base he is neglecting.

[nigelred5]

Speaking of Ugly cars, Have you all seen the pictures of the new Dallara Daytona Prototype? Get this it is the Dallara "DP-01" My god they can make an ugly car.

[!!WALDO!!]

You might want to go back to your history book and see where "...king George" himself talked about a new formula for 2010. I don't think he said "might" anywhere in that speech.

Like Insurance you do not understand. How many aspects are there in a Formula? He could just change engines. That does it also.


Yes it took a year when the rules changed. And how long did it take for them to formulate the rules changes? A significant amount of time, I would think. All sorts of input would be required from manufacturers, teams, drivers, mechanics, tracks etc. Not a short term project at all.

Unlike you, I actually know someone that was involved in this. By the end of October of 1995 they had commiments from two Chassis and two engine suppliers for January of 1997. So how long?


So let's do a timeline shall we. We'll work back from the opening race of the 2010 season (the year TG said the new formula would be in use). So if it takes a year to produce the cars to make that target date, we are now at the start of the season for 2009 for that step. And lets say it takes a year to formulate the rules needed before the design process can begin, that puts us where? The start of the 2008 season. You might want to look at the calendar. It is 2008 right now. So if a new car is to be introduced in 2010, work is starting right now. Hence discussions about it are happening right now.

Nope, nothing is happening right now. What is being done is lining up the next two seasons. There are people that will be doing this and TG will have very little imput. Remember TG made this statement prior to this deal happening thus is why "may".


I realize none of this is history yet. It's all some of that new fangled future stuff.

An issue that must occur is the car must be good out of the box. Reason is you do not need what occurred in 1997. New cars every year mandated for safety reasons. That is the quickest way to losing car count because of no place to sell the cars thus you have $300,000 times 3 times 5.
That is the other reason that word "may" is always around the corner.

[pits4me]

What "new formula"? We got at least two years on this.

Two years before they show up on the grid means they start the process no later than May 1st, 2008. You act like such an expert yet you ignore some of the most basic details of what's involved bringing a car into competition.

The FIA is also known to hold up the process to ensure TBD safety standards are accomplished.

[garyshell]

Like Insurance you do not understand. How many aspects are there in a Formula? He could just change engines. That does it also.

Do you REALLY believe that the new formula will only be an engine? I have a crisp $20 bill here that says you are wrong. With all the input the IRL was soliciting from young designers a few months back and subsequent comments that were made I think it is pretty clear a new chassis is in the offing. I don't necessarily think it will look anything like the designs that came out of that competition. But I do think it was a very clear signal that something new is anticipated. Care to put your money where your mouth is and pony up $20?



Unlike you, I actually know someone that was involved in this. By the end of October of 1995 they had commiments from two Chassis and two engine suppliers for January of 1997. So how long?

Hmmm that sure looks like 14 months after the rules were in place. Thank you for making my point.


Nope, nothing is happening right now. What is being done is lining up the next two seasons. There are people that will be doing this and TG will have very little imput. Remember TG made this statement prior to this deal happening thus is why "may".

And if you think that no one is working on what the rules will be, so that a new formula be it chassis, engine or both can be in place for the opening of the 2010 season, I think you are very very wrong.


An issue that must occur is the car must be good out of the box.

And that, is PRECISELY why I am certain that at the very least consideration of direction and planning for the process of formulation the new rules is happening right now. And I'd be very surprised if some meetings have not already transpired for the fact finding that would be the start of the rule making process.


Gary

[pits4me]

I'd be very surprised if some meetings have not already transpired for the fact finding that would be the start of the rule making process.


Gary

You are absolutely right. Some preliminary designs have already been circulating mahogany row.

The IPS is also way overdue for a facelift. Imagine if they adopt a Swift chassis in 2009. Complete with engine manufacturer support.

[!!WALDO!!]

Do you REALLY believe that the new formula will only be an engine? I have a crisp $20 bill here that says you are wrong. With all the input the IRL was soliciting from young designers a few months back and subsequent comments that were made I think it is pretty clear a new chassis is in the offing. I don't necessarily think it will look anything like the designs that came out of that competition. But I do think it was a very clear signal that something new is anticipated. Care to put your money where your mouth is and pony up $20?

In June of 1993 Tony George and Herb Fishel announced a formula change for the 1995 500. The Chassis to be used where the current CART cars, so what was changed in the formula? I will PM you where to send the $20.00



Hmmm that sure looks like 14 months after the rules were in place. Thank you for making my point.

I said a year, you said 23 months. Do I get another $20.00?
Let's see, the DP01 was announced a year prior to the first use.


And if you think that no one is working on what the rules will be, so that a new formula be it chassis, engine or both can be in place for the opening of the 2010 season, I think you are very very wrong.

There are people that will be doing this and TG will have very little imput.

Please read!



And that, is PRECISELY why I am certain that at the very least consideration of direction and planning for the process of formulation the new rules is happening right now. And I'd be very surprised if some meetings have not already transpired for the fact finding that would be the start of the rule making process.

Wait a minute, the worlds smartest guy has been on the job not even a month. The merger and getting equipment to the teams wanting to compete are necessary for the current year. The schedule and logistics and the operating budget are all changed in the last week. So you PRECISELY wrong. Meeting will not start until the end of next summer. I guess you never ran a business that had a complete change as you start into production. Future plans get sidelined until later. It is more important now to turn out 2008 than a situation that may not change in 2 years.

[Rex Monaco]

It would be great to see the IRL/ICS expedite its oval readiness as a compromise to the fan base he is neglecting.

There's that. But then there is also the fact that the car is practically brand new, so it would save a ton of money when money is evidently so scarce. You'd have to be brain dead not to take advantage of this chassis.

[BoilerIMS]

If we close a thread, that means do not rehash the topic.