American rally rules

[cal]

Hello all!

I've been interested in American Rallying lately, and watched some footage etc. and I've noticed a few things. Like the lack of studded tyres. It's forbidden, right? But WHY? I saw some incar footage from Ken Block in the 100 Acre Wood rally recently. The stage was really fast, and while non-studded tyres keep the speed down in the corners, it doesn't have quite the same effect when you blast along long straights. In a lot of corners he slides towards the ditch, and with that speed you really can't do much if you come in too fast. With studded tyres I think you would be safer.

Is it to keep speeds down they're not allowed, or is it just because of the road damage they create?

Also, why do a lot of EVOs remove their spoilers/wings on the back? :)

[L5->R5/CR]

Hello all!

I've been interested in American Rallying lately, and watched some footage etc. and I've noticed a few things. Like the lack of studded tyres. It's forbidden, right? But WHY? I saw some incar footage from Ken Block in the 100 Acre Wood rally recently. The stage was really fast, and while non-studded tyres keep the speed down in the corners, it doesn't have quite the same effect when you blast along long straights. In a lot of corners he slides towards the ditch, and with that speed you really can't do much if you come in too fast. With studded tyres I think you would be safer.

Is it to keep speeds down they're not allowed, or is it just because of the road damage they create?

Also, why do a lot of EVOs remove their spoilers/wings on the back? :)

The issue of studs is sort of a sore spot in some regards in the US rally community. Essentially, the only true winter rally happens to be held in a state in which studs are outlawed (this brings up a whole different set of arguments but I digress). This prompted one of the sports original sanctioning bodies in the US to simply include in its rules that you cannot use studded tires. Now even just this year there was an even held in New Hampshire, a state in which studs are allowed, that permitted 2wd car to utilize studs. The way the rules work on the issue is that any event that is held in a state in which studs are permitted can apply for a sanction exemption and permit studs to be run in that event. There simply aren't a lot of winter rally events in the US that stand to take advantage of this proviso.

One of the reasons 100 Acre Wood did not apply for a sanction exemption, and thus did not have studs, is that it is not normally a winter event (I am not sure if Missouri allows studs to be used either). Traditionally 100 Acre Wood is a gravel event with occasional drizzle. The ice storm this year caught a lot of teams off guard and while the big teams were able to find snow and ice tires a lot of the clubman entrants were running on gravel tires in all of the snow and ice due to lack of options.

[cal]

I see, that explains it. Thanks. You could debate why studs aren't allowed on road vehicles in some states in the first place, but that's not a motorsport issue.

You say the top teams were able to find snow and ice tyres, what kind of tyres do you use on the winter events? And what makes are mostly used, BF Goodrich/Michelin, Yokohama, Pirelli?

Also, do you know why EVOs remove their back wings?

[janvanvurpa]

Hello all!

I've been interested in American Rallying lately, and watched some footage etc. and I've noticed a few things. Like the lack of studded tyres. It's forbidden, right? But WHY?

The origins of the RULE prohibiting studded tires goes back to the mid 1970s at an event in SCCAs (The organisation who sanctioned US "Nationella Champignonskit" until recently) so called "Pro-Rally Series" held north of SanFrancisco near Clear Lake, California. The dirt there is mostly red-clay and when wet it is seriously like driving on clean ice. In that event a crazy Dutchman living in the US named Hendrik Blok pulled out some studded tires to use cause it had rained and was absurdly slick.
He won by some crazy margin beating everybody badly.

Wednesday after the event a new rule was announced banning studs.
Punkt slut.

Now the rule persists primarily because the guys who bought the remnants of the SCCA rally department (sort of a privatization deal as the SCCA was always and still is 99.5% an amateur road race and "auto-cross" club and the Rally branch had created a lot of problems for the Club due to some unfortunate accidents where 4-5 people were killed on stages and the resulting lawsuits were a big drain on the club) inherited the rule and it has simply become a case of them not wanting to have anybody not in their circle telling them what to do.

It is pitiful small mindedness and tjur-skalle behaviour.
I say this because for 20 years I have asked, and suggested and pushed the idea to merely consider studs based on the popularity and uniqueness of Winter events in Sweden, Norway and Finland.

The answer is always one form or another of "we can't" but when pushed eventually the clique in control has finally admitted "we have never asked" and "we don't want to ask" because "it's the rule and it has always been this way" and essentially admitting "we don't care what the rest of the world does."

The ever declining number of people with 2wd cars bothering to enter the snow event seems not to concern the Company who own the Sanctioning rights.






I saw some incar footage from Ken Block in the 100 Acre Wood rally recently. The stage was really fast, and while non-studded tyres keep the speed down in the corners, it doesn't have quite the same effect when you blast along long straights. In a lot of corners he slides towards the ditch, and with that speed you really can't do much if you come in too fast. With studded tyres I think you would be safer.

Obviously it would be safer and just as obviously it would be more fun.
Remember all the people in North American rallying are all amateurs just playing even if some are spending $25,000 or more (I have heard silly figures of up to 45,000, probably silly exaggeration )per event to the companies preparing the cars, they are still amateurs for the richer teams I guess the idea of spending that sort of money and then getting stuck in a corner for 10 minutes because they slid a half meter wide is OK with them.
Those that pay for the entries (at over 1200 dollars) themselves have voted to skip the event.
I know at least 5 cars in Michigan or very close---a couple of hours tow-- who won't bother to enter.


Is it to keep speeds down they're not allowed, or is it just because of the road damage they create?

The answer really is "That's the way it's always been" and "it's the same for all".

I should note I have done 3 Winter rallys, 2 Canadian Championship events and the old SCCA "Pro=Rally" Championship event Maine Winter rally.
I managed to take the lead in the 2wd Open class Maine event---first time rallying on snow--- but it was in no way FUN, and it was not snow, it was, like the 2 Canadian events, clean blank ICE.

I won't bother now.

[SubaruNorway]

I've seen them use Nokian Hakkapelita just like we use on the road cars over here, but i would not go rallying with those :S

[cal]

Janvanvurpa, you seem to know some Swedish? :)

The people in charge are too conservative then. I hope you or someone manage to change things. I totally agree with you, driving on snow and ice without proper tyres just isn't fun in the way rallying should be fun. It's fun in a go slow, play in the snow sort of way, but not the sort of enjoyment you want from the sport.

1200 dollars for entering an event? What size event is that, and are all events priced the same? That's pretty hefty! What kind of mileage do you get for that and do you get recce? I've heard they use computerised notes in North America, but I'm not sure.

What kind of car did you drive? Here's some incar from a Volvo 240, gives you an idea of what kind of speed you average in a 2WD car with studded tyres, on a fast stage. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bYkMX7Kz7Gs


I've seen them use Nokian Hakkapelita just like we use on the road cars over here, but i would not go rallying with those :S

Me neither.

[M. Hurst]

Allowing studded tires is an option available via sanction exemption to any Rally America organizer, and studded tires were allowed at a Rally America event in New Hampshire in January.

For those who compete where proper studded tires are allowed, can you give me an estimate of the number of tires typically used, and cost (euro) for 4wd and 2wd cars on 160kms of stage distance?

[cal]

For those who compete where proper studded tires are allowed, can you give me an estimate of the number of tires typically used, and cost (euro) for 4wd and 2wd cars on 160kms of stage distance?

For a top class tyre here in Sweden (BF Goodrich/Michelin, Pirelli & Yokohama) you pay about € 315-370 each for both 15" and 16", depending on taxes.

The studs in these tyres, all three brands, are glued in Sweden. I don't know if the tyres they sell in Norway and Finland are glued there, but all the tyres used in the Swedish Rally are "assembled" here, and so that is the price for them here. If you start driving on these tyres in North America, I assume you will glue the studs in place over there, which might affect the price up or downward.

The amount of tyres used is really a question of class and budget, you can make 160km of stages with 6 tyres on good roads, if you're on a really tight budget. Many of the hobby-driving rally drivers drive on used tyres, again it's all about money though new tyres really make a difference.

I was doing the Swedish Championship event which was to be run on day 2 & 3 of the Swedish Rally behind the WRC-starters, and had to be cancelled due to the conditions - and to that event I had 10 new tyres for my Renault Clio. The length was about 100km and I was expecting to drive on pure frozen gravel.

But ideally, in a national championship, for 160km on a good, icy rally in a 4WD N4 car you would use about 10-16, depending on everything from road conditions to starting position. Will there be gravel if I start as car number 140? Most probably, yes, even if the conditions are perfect. Has it snowed or is there clean ice? There are two different tyres, what we call "tractor-pattern" for when there is snow on top of the ice, and you also have a clean ice-tyre.

You also have to think of preserving the tyres, on winter rallies stages tend to be longer. On a 40km stage it's quite important to be alert to fading tyres, when you feel they begin to fade you have to back off slightly until they regain some posture, then you can push on again.

Hope that answers some of your questions and thoughts, though I suggest you look around and contact some of the companies who are in the studded tyre business if you want to know more about bringing such tyres to the states - I noticed that you are Technical Director for Rally America. I think it would be great for the sport to have a strong championship in the United States and wish you the best with it.

[M. Hurst]

Ice & Snow rallies without studs are a great equalizer...car set up (soft!) and driver skill outshine horsepower...even trick diffs are no use when there's no grip at all. The podium for a snow rally commonly has different faces (Canadians!) than our gravel events...that being said, it's not much to look at from outside the car!

http://www.rally-america.com/thumb.php?pic=1988&max=600

Some of the current U.S. competitors from overseas have told me the same thing...~$500 USD per proper studded tire. An additional $2,000-$8,000 USD for a snow / ice rally seperates the "haves" from "have nots" of (already thin) American rally even farther. It might be workable with a less expensive limited or "spec" studded tire.

"Studless" tires currently used on snow and ice cost $80-$150 USD per tire.

[cal]

Car setup should be soft even with studded tyres, you have softer springs in the winter and raise the ride height to make room for the tyres, though they often touch the inner guards in bumps.

I can see your point, like there's not enough expenses in rallying of today already. How many winter events do you have in North America, all various championships considered? And how many licensed competitors? Aren't there enough competitors for these tyres to work financially - more pros than cons so to speak?

You would probably attract a bigger audience as the speeds increase along with the awe-factor. I think I speak for almost every rally driver in Scandinavia when I say that I'd rather not drive an event in winter conditions with "summer" tyres. I'd love to compete in North America sometime in the future, though. :)

[M. Hurst]

as the speeds increase ......

That brings up another problem...road use permits and the difficulty in finding good, technical roads. It seems that more and more, the roads we receive permission to use have been improved and straightened for use by large trucks.

Icy roads, no snow banks, no studs, and still 117kph average speed:

http://www.flatovercrest.com/2008/02/video-onboard-1.html

[cal]

Well, if you ask me Ken Block would be safer with proper tyres in that video.

The roads you have are more dangerous to drive when icy on tyres that are not meant to be driven on that surface, than they would be with studs. If the average speeds are too high, use chicanes on long straights and the problem is solved. Right now I assume you can't use chicanes to get speeds down because no one would be able to stop in time... ;)

Try to have a competition with real tyres and I think the drivers wouldn't want to go back to non-studded tyres.

[janvanvurpa]

I totally agree with you, driving on snow and ice without proper tyres just isn't fun in the way rallying should be fun. It's fun in a go slow, play in the snow sort of way, but not the sort of enjoyment you want from the sport.


Well ever since I've been doing this since '84, the way I describe what it is to people who are curious is ''You know what fun you had when it snowed and you'd go out and drive sideways like a crazy in big parking lots till the cops would chase you away? ''Full-garv! only longer and more intense!''
Then they understand and ask more.


1200 dollars for entering an event?
For so called ''National Championship'' events.
lägg till maybe 160 bucks för Jemba notes, and then add several hundred more per day if you want them to score you for the lokala DM type events that run simultaneous (like SM was supposed to run with VM i Varmland)



What size event is that,

Maybe 31-33 cars in the ''Championship'' event and maybe 10-12 more behind in the ''Club'' event. Typicaly well more than half to two thirds are various year Subaru Imprezas, an anomoly not seen anywhere else in the civilised world.



and are all events priced the same?

More or less all the Rally America events have at least that price.
There is a second Organisation that also sanctions rallys in USA called NASA Rallysport and their event entries are typically less.



That's pretty hefty!

Yep for a little event way smaller than any DM i Mellansverige in entry numbers and quality it's a lot, but worse is the rising equipment costs all driven by vår nykommen gäst i hans befattning som ''skyddare av hans boss' förmögenhet''
. Now remember that Rally is small here and the distances easily 4-6 times the distances in Sweden (OK well soppa for tow rig is less than half the cost per liter but TIME to tow is still crazy) and many ''normal'' people might do maybe 2 or max 3 events in a year, OK.
Now the harnesses must be thrown away in 2 years for SFI approved events and 5 years for FIA approved belts, the helmet rules have sharpened, the seats must be FIA soon or now (I can't) and the latest Thousand dollar bomb is the requirement for the HANS device which as far as i can see is not required in any but the A8 cars in a couple of countries last I checked.

This means for some guys the life of their harnesses will be maybe 4 or 6 events, and the life of their new HANS thing might also be 2 years or 4-6 events.
And the open joke is that the approval ''Foundation'' SFI is a organ funded entirely by the MAKERS of Safety equipment and even an idiot can see instantly that the rules saying the belts or HANS or whatever are dead after 2 years directly benefits the equipment maker-----who fund the Foundation.
Skumpt som faaaen.



What kind of mileage do you get for that and do you get recce?
Tradionally in Champignonskit events since the mid 90s it was supposed to be a minimum of 120 miles or just under 200km. Earlier than that some events went longer. There are always stage cancellations however and sometimes there are cancelled stages for things like tactics, the Subaru rally Team USA's antics have led to some serious condemnation and occasionally a slap on the wrist for things like Displaying the Rec Cross sign---which immediately stops a stage and it becomes annuled--nobody gets a stage time--conveniently when the Subaru no1 car had a puncture---but the lame excuse was ''there was a snowmobile running along a trail next to the stage road. (Yeah well there are 5,000 trees standing next to the stage road too, why not display red cross for them? Oh, no flat!!)


I've heard they use computerised notes in North America, but I'm not sure.

Yep Arne Johansson from Karlskoga should be a rich man with the prices that the place that rents his Jemba machine charges the organisers of the events, but I read he rents the machine for smulor.

Now if you saw the average speed of the majority of the drivers here I am certain you'd say Herregud they need to worry about to ger järnet i stället för buuying ''driver aids''


What kind of car did you drive?

Haven't driven a rally since '97. Have been kart-läsare a couple of times, but since then I have moved from the skit-hål Boston hem till Seattle, bought a house, concentrated on my little business, and gotten married and had 2 kids, one of which will be 3 on the 9th! And all that after I turned 50!
Before i drove always Saab V4 which med tänke på den låg nivån som råder härborta I had some preetty OK results once I got a ''riktig'' motor with dubbel blås toppar och korsinsug.
Nufurtiden sitten en Cosworth Sierra i 4wd trim sittande där i väntan på tid och peng.


Here's some incar from a Volvo 240, gives you an idea of what kind of speed you average in a 2WD car with studded tyres, on a fast stage. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bYkMX7Kz7Gs


Hey I've been a good agitator here i Rallyvärleden mesta U-land for GruppH and Finska F-cup and I'm happy that many of the guys have become tuned into the Swedish and Finnish rally scene, and have already begun to use what they see on Youtube from därborta as the standard of what they think is GOOD and what they'd like to see here and to do.

Seems more and more guys are now deciding to build simpler 2wd mostly RWD cars that I know of--but maybe that's not surprising because I build suspension and motors mostly for 2wd guys, in fact just now I'm in the middle of or just supplied suspension for AE86 Corrolla, 3 Volvo 240s (nu i 50mm utförande) and a couple or 3 Ford Sierror, and doing a nice 240 rally motor for one boy .

As for speeds on snow, my first awareness of a WRC event was the fight between Blomqvist and Per Eklund back in 1976, sista gången 96:an vann i VM. It was completely unbelievable but it worked!!!
10 years later I was the last man to drive a 96 i VM at 1986 Olympus WRC.

Hej Cal, varför inte kom över till vår ''vänligare'' forum och hälsa på?

Kollo in hos http://www.rallyanarchy.com och säg till dina kompisar oxo att titta in.
Lång term plannerna är att försök att lägga grunden till nån slags ''exchange driver'' program so guys of normal income can go over both ways and get a taste of what its like elsewhere. We are already talking with some crazy Finns who is deep into the plans to bring 5-6 fast F-cup boys over and he liked my idea of maybe doing a vaction--and so the wife won't murder you you say it in the right order----and see San Francisco, Seattle and Vancouver and the fantastic nature between them, and also do a local rally.

Hälsa på!

John V agitatören som alltid.

[Tomi]

Kollo in hos http://www.rallyanarchy.com och säg till dina kompisar oxo att titta in.
Lång term plannerna är att försök att lägga grunden till nån slags ''exchange driver'' program so guys of normal income can go over both ways and get a taste of what its like elsewhere. We are already talking with some crazy Finns who is deep into the plans to bring 5-6 fast F-cup boys over and he liked my idea of maybe doing a vaction--and so the wife won't murder you you say it in the right order----and see San Francisco, Seattle and Vancouver and the fantastic nature between them, and also do a local rally.

Hälsa på!

John V agitatören som alltid.

Very good idea, its important to have a class where the cars are relatively cheep so that many as possible get to drive, how many stage km is the local rallies there about? btw din svenska e jävla bra.

[RichardM]

Cal, over 300 Euros per tire for rally studded tires? I assume that is for the little bitty tires used by most cars. What would the cost be for my big fat Mustang? And how many would I need? My solution is to simply not go where there is a high probability of snow. Texans and Mustangs and snow don't mix. :) Heck, Texans and snow don't mix regardless of the car. We had heavy rain today followed by heavy snowfall all with the temperature at above freezing. The roads were fine but it still took me 2 hours to get home through traffic in Dallas. And the TV news is making it sound like the end of the world. :) By the way, I did finish 100 Acre Wood rally and only 1 hour behind Ken Block. I was using a BFG A/T tire which I have been told is completely unsuitable for ice. Sounds about right to me.

As to Rally America calling a stage to suit given competitors, that is totally false. Anyone making such a statement is completely ignorant of the facts in the case where the snow mobile was racing along the side of the rally car and threatening to cut in front. The whole incident was captured on video and fully reviewed by the stewards.

And if Rally America were to be favoring Subarus, which team would they favor? As has been pointed out by the same person who claims Rally America is favoring Subarus, most of the teams are running Subarus. And what is John saying about studs? My comprehension of Scandinavian languages is very poor since my Grandfather chose not to teach any of his children his native Norwegian.

If any one would like to see an example of a small regional rally in the USA, check out our site. Simply Google "Rallye de Paris". Instead of the high cost event in France, the first site that comes up is our little event for the clubman. Or just go to http://www.rallyengr.com
Richard
Car 701

[turoc]

The amount of tyres used is really a question of class and budget, you can make 160km of stages with 6 tyres on good roads, if you're on a really tight budget. Many of the hobby-driving rally drivers drive on used tyres, again it's all about money though new tyres really make a difference.


Can you tell us how many gravel tyres you typically use at an event? How much you pay for your gravels?



Very good idea, its important to have a class where the cars are relatively cheep so that many as possible get to drive, how many stage km is the local rallies there about? btw din svenska e jävla bra.

The latest trend in USA rallying is to go out and buy/build 4wd turbo cars 50% above driver skill level. Not many events have low budget cars particularly with Rally America. Usually 75% of the field are what JVL reffers to as "Subarat"
If its a national event which consists of 2 regionals it will be the same as the national roughly 100miles of SS. (Most RallyAmerica regionals are national events divided in two) If it is a regional race it is anywhere from 50 to 75ish miles.

[janvanvurpa]

.

As to Rally America calling a stage to suit given competitors, that is totally false. Anyone making such a statement is completely ignorant of the facts in the case where the snow mobile was racing along the side of the rally car and threatening to cut in front. The whole incident was captured on video and fully reviewed by the stewards.

Dear readers, it should be noted that Richard here rabidly "Pro Rally America" and in his book, they can do no wrong.

To Richard: Don't pretend to misread or attempt to put words in my mouth.
I did not say that Rally America "called" or canceled a stage to suit the Pastrana/Edström car, may as well say it rather that attempting to be coy.

(Readers, this is a part of the problem here, most of the old dinosaurs in the Organising Commitees and "Federation" Official positions know each other for decades, and know details of incidents of cheating and rule bending, but NOTHING is ever said aloud)

The incident was in last years season opening event called "Sno-drift" and one one stage the SRTUSA car of Pastrana had a puncture and conveniently "an unknown person" was seen riding a snowmobile on a trail following the stage, and the 199 Patrana car stopped and co-drivern Edström "displayed the Red Cross sign" which under Rally America rules means the stage is immediately stopped and ALL TIMES for THAT STAGE THROWN OUT.
Edström knows the rules perfectly well

Ricvhard reads english well enough for an Engineer to know that is what I said, not that Rally America canceled the stage to favor the Subaru Rally Team USA.

The videos do show a supposedly unknown person riding on a trail parallel to the stage, but as I made clear, what goes on next to the road isn't all that important, the snowmobile made no turns towards the road and it is no more dnger that the thousands of trees lining every meter of every stage.


And if Rally America were to be favoring Subarus, which team would they favor? As has been pointed out by the same person who claims Rally America is favoring Subarus, most of the teams are running Subarus.
It is obvious that Rally America, exactly like SCCA before them (which is not surprising considering the only difference is that Rally America is a corporation owned by one Doug Havir, but key people are the same) is caught in a deep mud-hole: they are dependent on the presence of the Subaru rally Team USA to give their events a vaneer of specialness, it is their only "draw" and they cannot be particularly strict with the Goose Laying the Golden Egg.

Anybody who wishes could talk to Andrew Pinker about his view of the "Red Cross" incident which should have resulted in Disqualification and a huge fine.

And US Mitsubishi driver Dennis Martin from Green Bay Wisconsin said a short while back on some other forum that he met the "unknown" man on the snowmobile at the Las Vegas PRI Show, but of course he declined to identify just who he was and what postion he had with which crew.
Americans seem to prefer to play games of "I know something you don't know...."
Skumpt.



And what is John saying about studs? My comprehension of Scandinavian languages is very poor since my Grandfather chose not to teach any of his children his native Norwegian.

Nothing for you to worry about, your friend Hurst has been here and given us all the "Party Line", so everything is now all smooothed over.
Mostly i was saying you and Hurst and all the Rally America guys are all big studs. 8)

War is Peace
Freedom is Slavery
Ignorance is Strength!

[RichardM]

As you can tell, John does not like me nor does John like any one or thing that has the name Rally America associated with it. Hence John claims I am an old dinosaur and firmly embedded with all the old people. Well, I confess, I am older than John and have been involved with rally in the US longer than John. I am also an organizer and have been an organizer with SCCA, Rally America, NARA/NARRA and even consider NSR to list all the major organizing groups in the US. I am rabidly in favor of the sport of rally and not any one sanctioning body. If any one wishes a recommendation of my contribution to rally in the US, I suggest they contact almost any one in rally in the US except John. And I even serviced for John once. He was such a boor that was enough.

As you can see, John mocks the lack of ability to read Swedish. I wish I could read more languages faster but I can not. So if any one wishes to tell the rest of us what John is saying about studs so we can supply the truth, it would be appreciated.

[Tomi]

The latest trend in USA rallying is to go out and buy/build 4wd turbo cars 50% above driver skill level. Not many events have low budget cars particularly with Rally America. Usually 75% of the field are what JVL reffers to as "Subarat"
If its a national event which consists of 2 regionals it will be the same as the national roughly 100miles of SS. (Most RallyAmerica regionals are national events divided in two) If it is a regional race it is anywhere from 50 to 75ish miles.

I find it quite odd that there is no "budget class" based on old cars, In my point of view that is the first stepin stone to the sport belive that would bring more people involved, the more participents the bigger the chance is that there is someone really talented. I understand John V points very well.

[janvanvurpa]

I find it quite odd that there is no "budget class" based on old cars, In my point of view that is the first stepin stone to the sport belive that would bring more people involved, the more participents the bigger the chance is that there is someone really talented. I understand John V points very well.

Tomi since 1992 we have had a 2wd Open class and for a few years it looked like it would be a good hard field and it did draw some pretty good fields.
The old rules in the beginning had engine limits of 2,0 liter when the motor was 16v, 2,2 liter when 3v, 2.4l if 2 valve and if the motor had pushrods, then you could have a 0,8 factor making a total limit of 3,0liter.

The cars that have done best have been taken from what was the mainstay of North American rally: 1968-1973 Datsun 510 you guys know as Datsun SSS,
Volkswagen Golf II, and Saabs of all sorts from 99 Saabs to Saab 900 and even once in 1995 one National round was won by a Saab 96 V4.

But since the arrival of the Impreza 2.5 RS, fewer and fewer people have seemed to look at any 2wd cars as a legitimate car and many many guys have done 3-6 events in a Group 2 (with maybe a shorter final drive and some cam everybody in Europe would find under "Fast Road" cams in a catalog ) car over a two year period, and then "when they've learned every thing about 2wd" then they "move up to play with the Big Boys so they sell their old near stock car and buy a stock-ish Subaru.
And as a result the class has withered in most parts of the country.

We also have a class introduced in 1995 for 2wd cars with either engines greater than allowed in Gp2 or turbocharged engines.

The class which really ought to be the most popular has always been under subscribed with rarely more than 2-3 in the class maximum.

Now in the last 8 years I have pushed hard on the idea of the easy power, with broad torque that 2 cars have, along with their size, makes them very smart choice for boys because they don't need to have a crazy motor with a narrower power band, and since they don't have a narrow power band, then they don't need to buy crazy---but FUN---close ratio dog boxes.

These 2 cars are Volvo 240 and Ford Sierra, both with the 2,3 L, 8v turbo motors and there has been maybe 7-8 boys building Sierror, and 5-6 with 240 Volvo who I've helped with parts and motors and suspension which we hope will one day be done and out in the woods---if they can afford the entry fees and all the safety equipment.

[Tomi]

Now in the last 8 years I have pushed hard on the idea of the easy power, with broad torque that 2 cars have, along with their size, makes them very smart choice for boys because they don't need to have a crazy motor with a narrower power band, and since they don't have a narrow power band, then they don't need to buy crazy---but FUN---close ratio dog boxes.

These 2 cars are Volvo 240 and Ford Sierra, both with the 2,3 L, 8v turbo motors and there has been maybe 7-8 boys building Sierror, and 5-6 with 240 Volvo who I've helped with parts and motors and suspension which we hope will one day be done and out in the woods---if they can afford the entry fees and all the safety equipment.

Sounds interesting, the driver exchange thing was good idea too, its good to learn different type of surfaces, it would be easy to include some "pacenote seminar" maybe drive coaching too.

[cal]

This means for some guys the life of their harnesses will be maybe 4 or 6 events, and the life of their new HANS thing might also be 2 years or 4-6 events.

Yeah, new rules are everywhere. There's a big discussion here about whether or not making HANS mandatory in certain classes, but no desicion has been made. Over here HANS go for about € 1000, crazy.


Before i drove always Saab V4 which med tänke på den låg nivån som råder härborta I had some preetty OK results once I got a ''riktig'' motor with dubbel blås toppar och korsinsug.
Nufurtiden sitten en Cosworth Sierra i 4wd trim sittande där i väntan på tid och peng.

You can go far with korsinsug! The driver exchange program or idea sounds really fun, I'll check your site out after the weekend. And since I'm 21 and single I won't have to worry about a wife putting her foot down. ;)


Cal, over 300 Euros per tire for rally studded tires? I assume that is for the little bitty tires used by most cars. What would the cost be for my big fat Mustang? And how many would I need?

Yepp, for studded tyres. I assume you would use the same on your Mustang, 16" if you could find the right rims to fit! :) And you would probably need a few, depending on your HP. ;)


Can you tell us how many gravel tyres you typically use at an event? How much you pay for your gravels?

There are a lot more options when gravel tyres are concerned - everything from re-tread to WRC-tyres. Good, new Michelin, Pirelli etc. are about € 250-280.

See you all after the weekend, I'm off competing in Sweden's best winter event, in Sälen fjällen if you know where that is, Jan V? 260 cars of which 142 are Gr. H, tuned 2WD. Have a nice weekend!

[RichardM]

I find it quite odd that there is no "budget class" based on old cars, In my point of view that is the first stepin stone to the sport belive that would bring more people involved, the more participents the bigger the chance is that there is someone really talented. I understand John V points very well.

In US rally in all of the sanctioning bodies, you are allowed to spend as much money as you want. Rally America does require novice drivers to start with a low power 2 wheel drive car to try and keep the crashing down. NASA Rally Sport will allow a novice to start in a WRC car almost. I am not sure about Rally New York.

However, the biggest cost is not the car, well once you have it built any way, but the travel. The two closest events to me are 100 Acre Wood and Rally Tennessee at about 600 miles or just under 1000 km away. As typical for Americans, I use a big pickup that cruises along at over 100 kph. Yes we know a small, low geared vehicle would work, but it just would not go as fast. :) Our fuel is still relatively cheap at just over $3 per US gallon (sorry I am not awake enough to convert to Euros per liter yet) but at 10 miles per gallon, just the fuel to get to the two closest events is $400 or so. Then add in at least 2 nights of hotel bills even if it is a one day event plus a day of vacation from work and the costs just add up.

There is an informal group trying to promote 2 wheel drive. And Rally America has modeled Group 2 (small engine, 2 wheel drive) after the Scandinavian Group F rules using a weight to displacement rule. NRS introduce a Spec Focus class to try and keep costs down.

The first stepping stone to having more people involved is to have more rallys closer. Some of us are trying to organize events nearer to population centers but it is hard to do as we don't have enough entrants to pay for the costs of the rally. So to have more rallys, we need more people with cars. But to get people with cars we need more rallys. ARRG, it makes my head hurt. :)

The state of rallying in the center of the north American continent known at the US is not near as bad as John would have you believe. Nor are the organizers and sanctioning bodies stuck in the past.

By the way Cal, I have available lots of 15", 16" and even 17" rims for the Mustang. They are all very wide though. I typically buy tires for off-roading truck racing instead of rally tires as rally tires are just not wide enough. This is one of the problems rallying a big fat American car that was never considered for rally. But it is fun to drive!
Richard

[Tomi]

In US rally in all of the sanctioning bodies, you are allowed to spend as much money as you want. Rally America does require novice drivers to start with a low power 2 wheel drive car to try and keep the crashing down. NASA Rally Sport will allow a novice to start in a WRC car almost. I am not sure about Rally New York.

However, the biggest cost is not the car, well once you have it built any way, but the travel. The two closest events to me are 100 Acre Wood and Rally Tennessee at about 600 miles or just under 1000 km away. As typical for Americans, I use a big pickup that cruises along at over 100 kph. Yes we know a small, low geared vehicle would work, but it just would not go as fast. :) Our fuel is still relatively cheap at just over $3 per US gallon (sorry I am not awake enough to convert to Euros per liter yet) but at 10 miles per gallon, just the fuel to get to the two closest events is $400 or so. Then add in at least 2 nights of hotel bills even if it is a one day event plus a day of vacation from work and the costs just add up.

There is an informal group trying to promote 2 wheel drive. And Rally America has modeled Group 2 (small engine, 2 wheel drive) after the Scandinavian Group F rules using a weight to displacement rule. NRS introduce a Spec Focus class to try and keep costs down.

The first stepping stone to having more people involved is to have more rallys closer. Some of us are trying to organize events nearer to population centers but it is hard to do as we don't have enough entrants to pay for the costs of the rally. So to have more rallys, we need more people with cars. But to get people with cars we need more rallys. ARRG, it makes my head hurt. :)

The state of rallying in the center of the north American continent known at the US is not near as bad as John would have you believe. Nor are the organizers and sanctioning bodies stuck in the past.

By the way Cal, I have available lots of 15", 16" and even 17" rims for the Mustang. They are all very wide though. I typically buy tires for off-roading truck racing instead of rally tires as rally tires are just not wide enough. This is one of the problems rallying a big fat American car that was never considered for rally. But it is fun to drive!
Richard

If the travelling is a problem why not split the country in different divisions that would run lets say 5 division qualifying events from witch lets say 20 best could start in the national championship.
And make a 3-4 day lasting national championship in wich every day would be a separate event, that would mean the end if somebody would get tech/mech problems he would be out only from 1 event.

[RichardM]

If the travelling is a problem why not split the country in different divisions that would run lets say 5 division qualifying events from witch lets say 20 best could start in the national championship.
And make a 3-4 day lasting national championship in wich every day would be a separate event, that would mean the end if somebody would get tech/mech problems he would be out only from 1 event.

Actually both Rally America and NASA Rally Sport do that. NRS splits the country into two sides. Rally America, in addition to the national championship where Travis Pastrana, Ken Block etc. compete, also has a Regional Rally Championship. RA divides the country into Northwest, Southwest, Central and Eastern. The SCCA as a comparison is divided into 8 regions. The 100 Acre Wood rally which is run very close to the actual center of the US has been the Regional Rally Championship event where the top 3 in each class from each region are invited.

I'm proud to say that slow old me finished 2nd in the Central Division in Group 5 this year. Mark Utecht in his Mustang finished 1st. That is also where we finished in the regional rally championship. But we both admit that is because we were the only Group 5 regional entries. No one else made the tow. Maybe the roar of our mighty V8 engines scared them off. :)

[Tomi]

Actually both Rally America and NASA Rally Sport do that. NRS splits the country into two sides. Rally America, in addition to the national championship where Travis Pastrana, Ken Block etc. compete, also has a Regional Rally Championship. RA divides the country into Northwest, Southwest, Central and Eastern. The SCCA as a comparison is divided into 8 regions. The 100 Acre Wood rally which is run very close to the actual center of the US has been the Regional Rally Championship event where the top 3 in each class from each region are invited.

I'm proud to say that slow old me finished 2nd in the Central Division in Group 5 this year. Mark Utecht in his Mustang finished 1st. That is also where we finished in the regional rally championship. But we both admit that is because we were the only Group 5 regional entries. No one else made the tow. Maybe the roar of our mighty V8 engines scared them off. :)

Ahaa, normal here is to start with rwd normally Group F then maybe Gr n then Gr N then if there is talent they normaly drive WRC in Finnish championship and at the same time PWRC or selected WRC events but normally they dont go to drive international events before they have the chance to do good result (top 3).
But I think most important work does the clubs, from where i am home we have 2 clubs, http://www.espoonurheiluautoilijat.fi/ this one is more focused on track racing but has rally in the program too, their best known driver is Kimi Räikkönen.
The other club is Tapiolan Urheiluautoilijat, http://www.tapua.fi/ this one focus more on rally, best known driver from this club is Marcus Grönholm.
The clubs arrange often internal events and sometimes bigger events too, also by joining the clubs it's easy to get the first touch to the sport by co-driving for instance before get an own car.

[L5->R5/CR]

Ahaa, normal here is to start with rwd normally Group F then maybe Gr n then Gr N then if there is talent they normaly drive WRC in Finnish championship and at the same time PWRC or selected WRC events but normally they dont go to drive international events before they have the chance to do good result (top 3).
But I think most important work does the clubs, from where i am home we have 2 clubs, http://www.espoonurheiluautoilijat.fi/ this one is more focused on track racing but has rally in the program too, their best known driver is Kimi Räikkönen.
The other club is Tapiolan Urheiluautoilijat, http://www.tapua.fi/ this one focus more on rally, best known driver from this club is Marcus Grönholm.
The clubs arrange often internal events and sometimes bigger events too, also by joining the clubs it's easy to get the first touch to the sport by co-driving for instance before get an own car.


We are beginning to work on something similar to that in Colorado.

We have a fairly reasonable number of cars but not fully active competitors (25 competitors active in 2007 out of 47 cars that are legal/being built).

The idea is to formulate a structure to get people out to events and to be active, whether crewing, driving, or co-driving. If we can get a reliable competitor base of a moderate size then semi-regular organized social functions and collective networking is the next step. Getting this to be self sustaining is the major goal.


Currently we only have one real rally in CO. But we also have 5 dirt hill climbs (similar in format and atmosphere to a local 1 day club event in Europe) and a moderate active "rally cross" series (not to be confused with real European rally cross, this is for street cars, in dirt fields, with top speeds below 75 kmph). By uniting all of these groups/rallying types under one structure and integrating the competitors we are hoping to develop a club structure more similar to that in Europe.

Once things appear to be healthy the focus will be on more events as we have a lot of potential for future growth here as long as we can generate the competitor support.

[RichardM]

Kevin and the rest of the group in Colorado are certainly giving it the old college try. Several years ago, we had 17 cars in the Dallas area and were able to have a small local series. Then people moved away, got married, etc. But we are also trying to build the club feeling.

Of course, until they start selling reindeer milk at the local grocery, I doubt we will turn out another Marcus Grönholm. :)

[LastDitchRacing]

Thought I'd chime in on the tire issue since I didn't see it answered by a competitor.

The tire of choice at 100 Acre Wood(and at most snow/ice events) are the Yokohama AO-34 snow/ice rally tire. It's an incredible tire and quite resistant to puncture. They're best when there's a bit of snow or slush on the road.

They're pricey, but worth it.

We've had excellent luck with Michelin X-Ice and Yokohama IG-10's on ice in the past. We had a flat with an X-Ice in Michigan which lost us a lot of time.

Some folks ran Bridgestone Blizzaks at 100AW, but I don't think they were the best choice.

My co-driver Dave drove on studded continentals in the Challenge Sur Glace in Quebec. These are similar to WRC studded tires. He loved them on the ice, but they would tear up our stages and be cost prohibitive.

Street studs would really be of no help to us on stage, so the fact that they're banned in most states where we race is not of consequence.

Regards, John

[RichardM]

John, I heard Dave Parps say that 17 of the national competitors were on Nokian tires. But then he sells those so maybe he was counting some cars twice. :)
Richard

[LastDitchRacing]

People were on whatever they could find! :-)

We've run on Nokian tires in the past. Hakka Q's, Hakka 10's. Some people are on RSi's.

I noticed some people on Nokians, but I think the majority of the front runners were on Yoko's.

Cheers! John

[PuddleJumper]

Please keep all posts in English, either the Queen's own, or that funny version our dear cousins across the pond use. :p :

Non-English posts will have to be removed as they cannot be moderated.

Thank you. :)

[janvanvurpa]

Please keep all posts in English, either the Queen's own, or that funny version our dear cousins across the pond use. :p :

Non-English posts will have to be removed as they cannot be moderated.

Thank you. :)

The posts and sections removed were in what could be easily considered an old Northern dialect spoken till recent times in the dales of Yorkshire, it just looks vaguely like modern Swedish. 8)

Are you saying we must write simplistically enough for the typical Gringo?

Does it help that I type really slowly?

Hey Calle! Did you have some problems this weekend?
Saw somebody name Calle in a Clio who DNFed.

What was the story?

[RichardM]

I see, that explains it. Thanks. You could debate why studs aren't allowed on road vehicles in some states in the first place, but that's not a motorsport issue.

You say the top teams were able to find snow and ice tyres, what kind of tyres do you use on the winter events? And what makes are mostly used, BF Goodrich/Michelin, Yokohama, Pirelli?

Also, do you know why EVOs remove their back wings?

A short way down in this collection of pieces is a piece on the tires used at 100 Acre Wood. http://expn.go.com/expn/story?id=3159787

[cal]

The posts and sections removed were in what could be easily considered an old Northern dialect spoken till recent times in the dales of Yorkshire, it just looks vaguely like modern Swedish. 8)

Are you saying we must write simplistically enough for the typical Gringo?

Does it help that I type really slowly?

Hey Calle! Did you have some problems this weekend?
Saw somebody name Calle in a Clio who DNFed.

What was the story?

Hello again! I've been without internet for a couple of weeks, hence the late answer.

Yeah, we had an off and then retired after the last stage due to a cable coming loose. Nothing major, but the car is undergoing a good seeing too for the summer season and our national championship, which hasn't even started yet due to our warm winter and cancelled events.

I had a few handling issues with the car, but we managed to finish 9th and 10th on two stages in competition of the countries fastest Gr.H drivers. My car is a Gr. N. Looking forward to the summer season now!

The Colorado system seems like it could be a good idea, to build up organization and team spirit to get a stable ground to stand on. I hope it works out!

[L5->R5/CR]

The Colorado system seems like it could be a good idea, to build up organization and team spirit to get a stable ground to stand on. I hope it works out!



We're certainly going to try to make it work!

[Tagrallysport]

Beginning to be a great following over here, we need to get more drivers from Europe :D
[attachment=1:b8w8g5xd]fm heels1.jpg[/attachment:b8w8g5xd] Thanks, Tracey. Friend me on FACEBOOK, TAGRALLYSPORT

[Tagrallysport]

Great to hear you are following what is happening here. Entries at events have almost doubled this year, need more folks from Europe ;)
[attachment=1:8cw31yhe]fm heels1.jpg[/attachment:8cw31yhe]
Thanks Tracey. Follow me on Facebook TAGRALLYSPORT or http//www.tagrallysport.com

[Tagrallysport]

Hope to get more involved soon, in the process of moving to Denver :)
[attachment=1:23ql9ca3]Tracey1.jpg[/attachment:23ql9ca3] Tracey. TAGRALLYSPORT.

[vino_93]

I don't remember, who was the canadian who tested a Lancer WRC in Czech Republic ? I saw this here, but can't refind ... (was it l'Estage ?). And does it buy it finally ?

And do our australian friends know why Brendan Reeves isn't on entry list of Sno*Drift Rally ? :/

[Gregor-y]

Antione L'Estage (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antoine_L%27Estage). He hasn't announced anything other than saying he'd like to buy it or rent it but it's expensive and there's no plan for him to drive it on any continent. Or so he says (http://www.bybillwood.com/online/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=3978) in the little audio interview at the top of the page.

[Gregor-y]

I can't edit my post above any more, but it looks like Ken Block will be at Sno*Drift this weekend even though he's not on the entry. There should be a decent amount of snow this year. I'll find out when I drive there tomorrow. Still no studded tires allowed, though the zero car last year (an evo IV of dubious import status) was running about on Lappies.

[Gregor-y]

I don't remember, who was the canadian who tested a Lancer WRC in Czech Republic ? I saw this here, but can't refind ... (was it l'Estage ?). And does it buy it finally ?

And do our australian friends know why Brendan Reeves isn't on entry list of Sno*Drift Rally ? :/


Antione L'Estage (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antoine_L%27Estage). He hasn't announced anything other than saying he'd like to buy it or rent it but it's expensive and there's no plan for him to drive it on any continent. Or so he says (http://www.bybillwood.com/online/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=3978) in the little audio interview at the top of the page.

Apparently the car is acquired and will be in Oregon. Hopefully at Susquehannock, too, which I can attend.

[Grant_RSA]

Thought the Americans might be interested in a few pics of the South African championships, we run pretty much international S2000 and S1600 (R2) rules, cant see why this wouldnt work over there. 2 versions of the R2 (Toyota and VW) are built here with the imported Ford Fiesta R2 . S2000 majority of the cars are built in country to the FIA spec , once again with the odd imported Ford Fiesta S2000.

2013 Sasol Rally (http://www.rallyworld.net/index.php/gallery/view/137)